Poll

Do you identify as the left, the right, or neither?

The left
76 (46.1%)
The right
24 (14.5%)
Neither
65 (39.4%)

Total Members Voted: 165

Author Topic: Are you the left?  (Read 4692 times)

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Location: Ottawa
Are you the left?
« on: August 03, 2018, 03:58:04 PM »
There is an awful lot of communication today that refers to 'the left'  or 'the right'.

For example,  "The problem with the left is that they extrapolate your argument to some ridiculous extreme"
Or "The problem with the right is that they don't care about the environment"

It bugs me.    I tend to agree with elements from each side.   So I have to wonder, do people really identify this way?   
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 06:22:30 PM by scottish »

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9432
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2018, 09:28:09 AM »
I like the political compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/).   Right and left came out of legislative bodies.   Canada's left and right don't match the U.S.'s left and right, and I am sure this is true comparing any 2 countries.

I am guessing that another part of the discussion is that most people discussing politics here are Americans and they have a strong 2 party system.  The rhetoric you mention is more their rhetoric, and it is spilling over into Canada (or since the Koch brothers fund Canadian think tanks, which totally sucks, it is being intentionally exported to Canada).

In Canada you can prefer the Conservatives, the Liberals, the NDP or the Greens, or if you are in Quebec the BQ.  So you can be conservative (and if so, fiscally or socially, the Conservatives have gone for socially conservative and fiscally I have no idea what, the old PCs were fiscally conservative and socially middle of the road). You can be middle of the road (the Liberals tend to stake out this territory) or definitely left-wing (NDP).  Or you can be on another tangent altogether (Green, BQ).
 
I tend to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal, so when I look at actual party platforms I end up Green.  And over my voting history I have voted PC, Liberal, NDP and Green (never BQ).  Everybody's rhetoric drives me crazy.

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4262
  • Location: CT
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2018, 09:59:39 AM »
I believe it is a cultural infection in the US that is a result of the promotion and propping up of a two party system that is self perpetuating.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5817
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2018, 04:39:21 PM »
I hate how you can't identify as left of centre without being labelled a socialist or communist.

There needs to be a bucket for socially progressive and fiscally conservative.

Sudden Desu

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2018, 04:54:33 PM »
The terms are catch-all. I think the vagueness of "the left" or "the right" can exist if you don't differentiate between extreme ideologues and the mainstream political parties. I prefer the Democrats. Does that make me the left?

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2999
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2018, 04:54:47 PM »
There needs to be a bucket for socially progressive and fiscally conservative.

I agree.

What fascinates me is that I run into an awful lot of people who bring up falling into this mixed bucket of socially liberal/economically conservative, and basically no one who talks about being socially conservative but economically liberal.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 576
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2018, 05:33:25 PM »
What fascinates me is that I run into an awful lot of people who bring up falling into this mixed bucket of socially liberal/economically conservative, and basically no one who talks about being socially conservative but economically liberal.

Makes sense no?

socially liberal/economically conservative can loosely translate into:  no body touches my money and I am going to do w/e the eff I want to do.

lol

nnls

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
  • Location: Perth, AU
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2018, 12:00:41 AM »
I like the political compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/).   Right and left came out of legislative bodies.   Canada's left and right don't match the U.S.'s left and right, and I am sure this is true comparing any 2 countries.


I got left/libertarian which suggests I should vote for the Australian greens party according to the last election

https://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2016

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2018, 01:30:13 AM »
"You canít be socially progressive and economically conservative"

https://qz.com/936052/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative/

Quote
If you want to be socially progressive, you have to support initiatives that foster social progress, like education equality, womenís health resources, criminal justice reform, universal healthcare, workplace equality, and so on. These initiatives either cost taxpayer money, require governmentally enforced regulation, or both. If you believe in smaller government and want to pay less in taxes, how do you propose social progress be made? Because if thereís no social progress funding, thereís no social progress. Passive support is no support at all.

You can be socially conservative and fiscally conservative, but if youíre fiscally conservative, you can only be either socially conservative or a person who doesnít give a shit. And not giving a shit is not progressive.

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7811
  • Location: At Home
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2018, 01:42:58 AM »
I like the political compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/).   Right and left came out of legislative bodies.   Canada's left and right don't match the U.S.'s left and right, and I am sure this is true comparing any 2 countries.


I got left/libertarian which suggests I should vote for the Australian greens party according to the last election

https://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2016
Same here, but somehow the Greens arenít the right party for me, even though I should vote for them.

Raymond Reddington

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: NYC
  • "The Concierge of Cash"
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2018, 03:26:54 AM »
Funny, I guess I'm the person who considers himself more socially conservative and economically progressive.

-I believe in low tax rates for corporations, but eliminating tax deductions for high paid individuals for the business (thus pitting shareholders against high executive comp) and eliminating all forms of compensation that do not have a taxable fair value on the date of issuance as compensation.
-I believe in lowered tax rates for the middle class, but higher tax rates above $300,000 (new bracket), then $500,000, then $800,000, then $1M, then $1.5M, then $2M and every 500K to $20M, topping out at a 60% rate. There's no way a person making $20M year should have the same marginal tax rate as someone making $501K. Index all of these numbers to inflation.
-I believe in eliminating capital gains rates on taxable accounts. All income is treated as ordinary income, save for pass through income, which can take the 20% deduction, and qualified dividends, which can get a preferential rate.
-I believe in eliminating Roth/Traditional IRA distinctions and creating one type of IRA account, contributions to which are tax deductible, and can be withdrawn tax free anytime after age 50, with a carve out for earlier if the individual establishes a distribution schedule (exact criteria to be determined) that meets that of an early retiree. Up to the tax deductible max can be contributed in any year, which can be an even 20K now, indexed to inflation.
-I believe in ensuring Social Security remains sustainable by lifting the cap on contributions for high income individuals, but maintaining the limit to their benefit. I also believe in raising the full "retirement" age for SS to 68, since this was designed as insurance against people outliving retirement savings, rather than a primary source of retirement income.
-I believe in a strong estate tax. It's not a tax on the dead, because they are dead. It's a tax on heirs that prevents dynastic wealth from accumulating and ensures each generation has to earn its own keep. It incentivizes productivity rather than sloth. $5M tax free, then 75% on anything above that. It also ensures the baby boom generation responsible for running up such large governmental deficits pays back their debts from their own accumulated resources, rather than taxing the labor of future generations at greater rates to pay for the party that was had already.
-I believe in using proceeds to pay down government debt, which will reduce the budget deficit significantly since debt service costs are huge. Specifically focus on debt held by foreign states, to reduce their leverage in trade deals.
-I believe in strong worker's rights protections, which include labor unions, paid time off, workplace safety etc. I also believe the government has a duty economically to discourage companies from taking advantage of cheap, slave-like labor, which harms the workforce here by forcing them to compete with slavery abroad. Trade deals should be with allied nations only, and there should be strict barriers to discourage product competitions on the shelves of American stores from companies based in places like China that undermine our standard of living with shabby quality and underpaid labor.
-I believe in making health insurance like car insurance. All employers would give their employees a raise that represents the employer's share of healthcare costs immediately. Then the employee would be free to purchase their own health insurance plan after shopping around. However, there would still be an individual mandate. This would force insurers to compete for customers, which would use good old fashioned competition to drive down prices. This also forces providers to keep prices down, lest insurers drop them in an effort to retain their own lower prices. Right now there is no incentive for insurers or providers to keep costs down, since healthy workers have insurance through work. Employees forfeit the employer's share of costs if they purchase coverage on their own (and thus pay a higher cost), even if overall the plan would cost less. Plus it discourages employees from changing jobs, which is stupid. Put the burden squarely on the individual to find coverage (once the employer has made their share of health costs part of the employee's salary) then mandate everyone to buy their own from competing insurers. And you also get rid of the administrative nightmare that is COBRA, cutting out a bunch of COBRA administrators who are useless middlemen that service an overpriced healthcare option for those between jobs that would no longer be necessary.
-I believe in strong funding for the nation's infrastructure. It's falling apart, and we're falling behind.

However, socially:
-I believe gay marriage should be legal federally.
-I believe abortion should be legal for anyone who wants it.
-I think transgendering is personally dumb, but I support the right of someone to legally change their gender provided they actually obtain the surgery. However, I also support the rights of those who don't recognize the new gender. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a straight man who refuses to date a transgender woman who was biologically born a man, and this is not discrimination in any way.
-I believe in the rule of law, and illegal immigration needs to be cracked down on significantly. This is best done by targeting not just the illegal immigrants, but those who hire them (who would face stiff fines). That said, some exception needs to be carved out for those who were brought here very young and have only known this country. But once those cases are addressed, the door is closed to future illegal immigrants.
-I believe in strong separation of all churches and the state.
-I believe in free speech, as long as it is not hate speech.
-I believe your rights end the second they infringe on someone else's. No business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any personal characteristic, only for misbehavior while in the business.
-I believe in the 2nd amendment - however, anyone with diagnosed mental illness, any criminal record involving violence (or the threat of violence) including as a minor, or theft of a firearm, is permanently barred from owning one. Every citizen has to take a gun safety course prior to being allowed to own one. States have the right to set permitting levels (premises, carry, concealed carry, etc.), but legally everyone that meets the aforementioned criteria is allowed to own a gun and store it on premises at their primary residence.
-I believe that a person should have the right to use deadly force in any situation where the safety of any individual is threatened, or if their property is threatened by an individual trespassing on their property.
-I believe in institutionalizing the mentally ill again (some people are just not made for this world, no matter how you try to spin it)
-I believe in the death penalty for serious crimes or repeat offenders. If a dog can get put down for 2 bites, there is no way someone who has been arrested 30 times and convicted of misdemeanors or violations each and every time should be out on the streets to commit felony murder...yet it happens all the time.
-I believe in broken windows policing. Quality of life crimes degrade the standard of living in places and create the perception that anything goes. They open up a door to mischief, and eventually to greater crimes.
-I believe inner city schools need better funding, better laying out of what a school is and isn't for parents, and all schools need the freedom to fail underperforming kids or banish misbehaving children without threat of being sued or harrassed.
-I believe a basic financial literacy and personal finance class should be mandatory during senior year of high school.

Sigh. Guess that makes me the exception.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 03:33:53 AM by Raymond Reddington »

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1861
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2018, 05:14:54 AM »
The terms right and left are open to debate.  What it means to me is right wants to keep things the way things are or conserve them and left wants to try to change things to make progress. 

It all depends on the frame of where you are.  For example in China the right would want to conserve the dictatorship and the left would want to liberalise things.

In America the right wants to conserve how the country was in the beginning while the left wants to make a lot of changes.

 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12238
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2018, 07:46:53 AM »
"You canít be socially progressive and economically conservative"

https://qz.com/936052/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative/

Quote
If you want to be socially progressive, you have to support initiatives that foster social progress, like education equality, womenís health resources, criminal justice reform, universal healthcare, workplace equality, and so on. These initiatives either cost taxpayer money, require governmentally enforced regulation, or both. If you believe in smaller government and want to pay less in taxes, how do you propose social progress be made? Because if thereís no social progress funding, thereís no social progress. Passive support is no support at all.

You can be socially conservative and fiscally conservative, but if youíre fiscally conservative, you can only be either socially conservative or a person who doesnít give a shit. And not giving a shit is not progressive.

I'm not sure that I buy that.  One of the initial assumptions made in the statement (that fiscal conservatism equates to small government) is flat out wrong.  Many socially liberal programs (public health care, food programs, re-education / reintegration of prisoners into society) are much more fiscally conservative than the alternative when viewed from a whole society point of view.  They have more apparent initial costs, but have knock-on effects that end up in net savings (earlier diagnosis/cheaper care, reduced crime, less recurrence of crime/better productivity).

It's possible to be socially liberal because you don't want to waste tax dollars.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9432
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2018, 08:59:08 AM »
"You canít be socially progressive and economically conservative"

https://qz.com/936052/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative/

Quote
If you want to be socially progressive, you have to support initiatives that foster social progress, like education equality, womenís health resources, criminal justice reform, universal healthcare, workplace equality, and so on. These initiatives either cost taxpayer money, require governmentally enforced regulation, or both. If you believe in smaller government and want to pay less in taxes, how do you propose social progress be made? Because if thereís no social progress funding, thereís no social progress. Passive support is no support at all.

You can be socially conservative and fiscally conservative, but if youíre fiscally conservative, you can only be either socially conservative or a person who doesnít give a shit. And not giving a shit is not progressive.

I'm not sure that I buy that.  One of the initial assumptions made in the statement (that fiscal conservatism equates to small government) is flat out wrong.  Many socially liberal programs (public health care, food programs, re-education / reintegration of prisoners into society) are much more fiscally conservative than the alternative when viewed from a whole society point of view.  They have more apparent initial costs, but have knock-on effects that end up in net savings (earlier diagnosis/cheaper care, reduced crime, less recurrence of crime/better productivity).

It's possible to be socially liberal because you don't want to waste tax dollars.

Definitely. Advantages of state run health care systems are that people see the doctor when they are sick, not waiting until they are critically ill in ER, which drives total costs up. People don't stay in bad jobs because of workplace health insurance. People don't go bankrupt because of no/poor health insurance. In the long run a country has an overall healthier population at lower cost. The same argument can be made for higher education.  It's part of the tax system, people know some of their taxes are going to the general well-being of their society.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1229
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2018, 09:46:48 AM »
"You canít be socially progressive and economically conservative"

https://qz.com/936052/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative/

Quote
If you want to be socially progressive, you have to support initiatives that foster social progress, like education equality, womenís health resources, criminal justice reform, universal healthcare, workplace equality, and so on. These initiatives either cost taxpayer money, require governmentally enforced regulation, or both. If you believe in smaller government and want to pay less in taxes, how do you propose social progress be made? Because if thereís no social progress funding, thereís no social progress. Passive support is no support at all.

You can be socially conservative and fiscally conservative, but if youíre fiscally conservative, you can only be either socially conservative or a person who doesnít give a shit. And not giving a shit is not progressive.

I'm not sure that I buy that.  One of the initial assumptions made in the statement (that fiscal conservatism equates to small government) is flat out wrong.  Many socially liberal programs (public health care, food programs, re-education / reintegration of prisoners into society) are much more fiscally conservative than the alternative when viewed from a whole society point of view.  They have more apparent initial costs, but have knock-on effects that end up in net savings (earlier diagnosis/cheaper care, reduced crime, less recurrence of crime/better productivity).

It's possible to be socially liberal because you don't want to waste tax dollars.

Definitely. Advantages of state run health care systems are that people see the doctor when they are sick, not waiting until they are critically ill in ER, which drives total costs up. People don't stay in bad jobs because of workplace health insurance. People don't go bankrupt because of no/poor health insurance. In the long run a country has an overall healthier population at lower cost. The same argument can be made for higher education.  It's part of the tax system, people know some of their taxes are going to the general well-being of their society.

Not to mention there are lots of socially liberal actions we can take without spending anything. Allowing gay marriage, relaxing drug laws (this also moves toward smaller government and is directly fiscally conservative). Favoring less military spending is either socially liberal or neutral and it's definitively a fiscally conservative position. Money doesn't equal action, especially when it comes to social issues.

We should also make at least one more category, environmentally conservative or environmentally liberal. That's a tricky one though, are the conservative the people who want to keep the laws the same or who want to keep the environment itself the same. They would be opposites.

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2999
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2018, 10:14:54 AM »
Funny, I guess I'm the person who considers himself more socially conservative and economically progressive.

Pleasure to meet you.

While not in any way arguing with the way you self identify, after reading your list of political positions, perhaps part of difference is that different parts of the country have different lines for how socially liberal you have to be to be more liberal than conservative?

Where I come from, just a few of the basic positions I've highlighted below would be enough to make you left of center on social issues

Quote
However, socially:
-I believe gay marriage should be legal federally.
-I believe abortion should be legal for anyone who wants it.
...snip..
-I believe in strong separation of all churches and the state.
-I believe in free speech, as long as it is not hate speech.
...snip...
-I believe your rights end the second they infringe on someone else's. No business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any personal characteristic, only for misbehavior while in the business.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2018, 10:57:21 AM »
Where I come from, just a few of the basic positions I've highlighted below would be enough to make you left of center on social issues

Quote
However, socially:
-I believe gay marriage should be legal federally.
-I believe abortion should be legal for anyone who wants it.
...snip..
-I believe in strong separation of all churches and the state.
-I believe in free speech, as long as it is not hate speech.
...snip...
-I believe your rights end the second they infringe on someone else's. No business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any personal characteristic, only for misbehavior while in the business.

Yeah, I'm in a solid blue state, and that comes across as pretty liberal to me.

nick663

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 247
  • Location: midwest
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2018, 11:26:08 AM »
I'm left of center on social issues where there are benefits for the country as a whole (infrastructure, socialized healthcare, environmental, etc) and beyond that I lean libertarian and just want to be left alone.  I'm also somewhat of a deficit hawk although I'm fine with deficits in a time of need (armed conflict that threatens the nation or economic recession).

Currently the "right" calls any expansion of social programs socialism, has an authoritarian lean, and they have grown the deficit at every opportunity in the last 30 years.  Pretty much the opposite of what I'm looking for.
Currently the "left" want to expand social programs/regulations and they have done ok on the deficit in the last 30 years (through tax increases).

If there was a "none of the above" I would take it but if I have to choose, the left at least touches on a few issues I care about.

Raymond Reddington

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: NYC
  • "The Concierge of Cash"
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2018, 01:34:04 PM »
Pleasure to meet you.

While not in any way arguing with the way you self identify, after reading your list of political positions, perhaps part of difference is that different parts of the country have different lines for how socially liberal you have to be to be more liberal than conservative?

Where I come from, just a few of the basic positions I've highlighted below would be enough to make you left of center on social issues

Quote
However, socially:
-I believe gay marriage should be legal federally.
-I believe abortion should be legal for anyone who wants it.
...snip..
-I believe in strong separation of all churches and the state.
-I believe in free speech, as long as it is not hate speech.
...snip...
-I believe your rights end the second they infringe on someone else's. No business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any personal characteristic, only for misbehavior while in the business.

Of course, those may seem "liberal" by today's standards. But to be clear, I'm not saying I agree with all of them, I'm saying that in a strict interpretation of constitutional freedoms, it is not my right nor the government's right, to take those rights away from anyone else. There is nothing in the Bible about "banning" sin, after all. You can allow gay marriage without personally agreeing with every aspect of it. It's not my place to tell someone who to love, and if they want to, FINE. But I also believe in family values, I don't believe being gay is a "choice" - I believe it's inherent in a human's nature, that people can be completely heterosexual, completely homosexual, and bisexual to degrees along a spectrum. However, I strongly believe that the world should remain generally heteronormative and promoting of family values while allowing homosexuals and bisexuals the freedom to do what they please, so long as they do so within the context of the laws, which would be expanded to allow them to marry if they please. I do not believe that homosexual relationships need to be depicted on every show on television (the current crusade) to "normalize" this behavior, nor do I believe that the homosexual lifestyle should be placed in front of children so publicly and promoted as a choice. It's something people should just discover on their own, not something that you actively attempt to place on a podium opposite a heteronormative lifestyle to a confused, bisexual teenager who may be closer to one end of the bisexual spectrum than the other, and attempt to persuade him/her to embrace that life. But I have friends who are 100% gay, and they know it. I support their right to get married, if they want.

Part of believing in freedoms is recognizes that you do not have the freedom to strip freedoms from others, whether you agree with them or not. I think of that actually, at its core, as a VERY conservative position in the classical sense, not the neoconservative crap that is spouted today. Hell as far as I'm concerned, 2 of the best presidents in US history were Teddy Roosevelt and Eisenhower.

I also don't believe in the welfare state, and people should not be allowed to have kids who have no way of taking care of them. Having kids is not a freedom, your rights to be a parent end at that child's right to have a suitable upbringing. Pro birth is not the same thing as pro life (which I actually am, even if it means less births). Additionally, welfare is supposed to support you until you can find work again, not be a permanent crutch. While the majority of welfare users are honest, plenty of all races, aren't. Kick those people off it. Then they can stop being used as the strawman against a program designed to get people working again.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 10:25:26 PM by Raymond Reddington »

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2018, 02:05:26 PM »
and people should not be allowed to have kids who have no way of taking care of them.

But they have childless people like me paying higher taxes to subsidize the costs of raising their children so that they can pay lower taxes, get more benefits, and use more public resources.

Raymond Reddington

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: NYC
  • "The Concierge of Cash"
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2018, 02:06:51 PM »
and people should not be allowed to have kids who have no way of taking care of them.

But they have childless people like me paying higher taxes to subsidize the costs of raising their children so that they can pay lower taxes, get more benefits, and use more public resources.

Dude, I don't have children either. Right there with you.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9432
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 02:27:36 PM »
and people should not be allowed to have kids who have no way of taking care of them.

But they have childless people like me paying higher taxes to subsidize the costs of raising their children so that they can pay lower taxes, get more benefits, and use more public resources.

Dude, I don't have children either. Right there with you.

I have one (ZPG and all that), but I support the support of children whether they are onlies or one of 10.  I want all those kids to grow up to be healthy (physically and mentally) contributing citizens, which means they need support, whether from their families, their local community, or government programs, or a mix of all 3.

Along with that I support the mother's choice as to how many she will have, and when she will have them, which also means supporting birth control and early term abortion, and for health reasons (mother or fetus) later term abortions.  Basically  what Canada has now for both birth control and abortions.  It took us decades and court battles to get here, but as a society we seem to generally be OK with it.  And if you have good birth control availability, there are a lot fewer abortions.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2018, 02:44:20 PM »
and people should not be allowed to have kids who have no way of taking care of them.

But they have childless people like me paying higher taxes to subsidize the costs of raising their children so that they can pay lower taxes, get more benefits, and use more public resources.

Dude, I don't have children either. Right there with you.

I have one (ZPG and all that), but I support the support of children whether they are onlies or one of 10.  I want all those kids to grow up to be healthy (physically and mentally) contributing citizens, which means they need support, whether from their families, their local community, or government programs, or a mix of all 3.

I'm already supporting them, but unfortunately, it's to a MUCH larger degree than I feel is fair and not by choice.  For a household income of $70K/yr, a single woman pays over 30X as much federal income tax per household member as a family of four, just as one example of the unfairness of it all.  If you're going to have kids, you should be able to raise them yourself, not expect me to do it for you.

shuffler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 305
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2018, 03:57:03 PM »
For a household income of $70K/yr, a single woman pays over 30X as much federal income tax per household member as a family of four, just as one example of the unfairness of it all.
Your example is still dumb.

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5967
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2018, 05:11:06 PM »
"You canít be socially progressive and economically conservative"

https://qz.com/936052/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative/

Quote
If you want to be socially progressive, you have to support initiatives that foster social progress, like education equality, womenís health resources, criminal justice reform, universal healthcare, workplace equality, and so on. These initiatives either cost taxpayer money, require governmentally enforced regulation, or both. If you believe in smaller government and want to pay less in taxes, how do you propose social progress be made? Because if thereís no social progress funding, thereís no social progress. Passive support is no support at all.

You can be socially conservative and fiscally conservative, but if youíre fiscally conservative, you can only be either socially conservative or a person who doesnít give a shit. And not giving a shit is not progressive.

I think that when most people describe themselves this way, they are kind of left/ libertarian.  Meaning, they really want that gays should be allowed to marry, they want women's equality, they want to protect natural resources (and are willing to pay for that) BUT they also think that people should work for what they have.

The fiscal conservatism applies only to certain areas. 

middo

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
  • Location: Country Western Australia
  • Learning.
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2018, 05:48:56 PM »
I like the political compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/).   Right and left came out of legislative bodies.   Canada's left and right don't match the U.S.'s left and right, and I am sure this is true comparing any 2 countries.

I am guessing that another part of the discussion is that most people discussing politics here are Americans and they have a strong 2 party system.  The rhetoric you mention is more their rhetoric, and it is spilling over into Canada (or since the Koch brothers fund Canadian think tanks, which totally sucks, it is being intentionally exported to Canada).

In Canada you can prefer the Conservatives, the Liberals, the NDP or the Greens, or if you are in Quebec the BQ.  So you can be conservative (and if so, fiscally or socially, the Conservatives have gone for socially conservative and fiscally I have no idea what, the old PCs were fiscally conservative and socially middle of the road). You can be middle of the road (the Liberals tend to stake out this territory) or definitely left-wing (NDP).  Or you can be on another tangent altogether (Green, BQ).
 
I tend to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal, so when I look at actual party platforms I end up Green.  And over my voting history I have voted PC, Liberal, NDP and Green (never BQ).  Everybody's rhetoric drives me crazy.

I just did the political compass.  And here is mine...

Looks like I'm left of Gandhi.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 05:50:28 PM by middo »

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5817
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2018, 06:37:27 PM »
"You canít be socially progressive and economically conservative"

https://qz.com/936052/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative/

Quote
If you want to be socially progressive, you have to support initiatives that foster social progress, like education equality, womenís health resources, criminal justice reform, universal healthcare, workplace equality, and so on. These initiatives either cost taxpayer money, require governmentally enforced regulation, or both. If you believe in smaller government and want to pay less in taxes, how do you propose social progress be made? Because if thereís no social progress funding, thereís no social progress. Passive support is no support at all.

You can be socially conservative and fiscally conservative, but if youíre fiscally conservative, you can only be either socially conservative or a person who doesnít give a shit. And not giving a shit is not progressive.

I should respond to this. In my mind there is a difference between fiscal conservatism (an appropriate level of taxation, spent efficiently, is ok), and neo liberalism / tea party economics which suggests taxation is theft and everything should be user pays.

If New Zealand can have a decent society with a top marginal tax rate of 35ish%, I fail to see why Australia requires a top rate of 49%...


maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2999
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2018, 06:48:42 PM »
What both Marty998 and mm1970 said.

It's perhaps also worth noting that the original quote DreamFire dug up comes from a self employed screen writer and originally appeared at the following link: https://bullshit.ist/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative-32132ef9efad a website with the tagline: "Stories told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing." Given that, I would say it should best be taken as writing intentionally designed to evoke controversy and passionate responses, rather than a well thought out political philosophy.

gwhunter

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2018, 07:05:51 PM »
What fascinates me is that I run into an awful lot of people who bring up falling into this mixed bucket of socially liberal/economically conservative, and basically no one who talks about being socially conservative but economically liberal.

Makes sense no?

socially liberal/economically conservative can loosely translate into:  no body touches my money and I am going to do w/e the eff I want to do.

lol

I think they(we) are called Libertarian :) 

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM »
For a household income of $70K/yr, a single woman pays over 30X as much federal income tax per household member as a family of four, just as one example of the unfairness of it all.
Your example is still dumb.

I just want to say that I'm sorry that you don't understand it.  I have expanded on it at length in another recent thread.  I will try to get back to that thread you linked to at some point to explain it to you.   For now, I recommend taking your time reading what I already posted.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2018, 10:04:45 PM »
"You canít be socially progressive and economically conservative"

https://qz.com/936052/you-cant-be-socially-progressive-and-economically-conservative/

Quote
If you want to be socially progressive, you have to support initiatives that foster social progress, like education equality, womenís health resources, criminal justice reform, universal healthcare, workplace equality, and so on. These initiatives either cost taxpayer money, require governmentally enforced regulation, or both. If you believe in smaller government and want to pay less in taxes, how do you propose social progress be made? Because if thereís no social progress funding, thereís no social progress. Passive support is no support at all.

You can be socially conservative and fiscally conservative, but if youíre fiscally conservative, you can only be either socially conservative or a person who doesnít give a shit. And not giving a shit is not progressive.

I think that when most people describe themselves this way, they are kind of left/ libertarian.  Meaning, they really want that gays should be allowed to marry, they want women's equality, they want to protect natural resources (and are willing to pay for that) BUT they also think that people should work for what they have.

The fiscal conservatism applies only to certain areas.

I support all that as well, but I wouldn't go as far as to call myself "left" in the grand scheme of things.  I do believe in a more fair sharing of the tax burden from the fiscal conservative side but support the ACA and healthcare for millions of people.  I'm more of a free thinker who doesn't put a label on oneself or let a particular party or ideology form my opinions.

shuffler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 305
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2018, 10:08:18 PM »
I just want to say that I'm sorry that you don't understand it.
I fully understand what you've said.  It's bunk.  And I've not been the only person to say so.
You're being "intentionally obtuse" (as another poster put it) and exaggeratory, I suppose b/c you want to feel that you're discriminated against (w.r.t. taxes) as a single person.

I attempted to point out how ridiculous your argument is via my examples, such as the family of 4 being disenfranchised b/c they have only 0.5 votes per person ... but I fear that my approach may've been too subtle.

I normally wouldn't comment, but you've posted this lame "30x the taxes!!" rhetoric in several threads now.
You're starting to feel like those "taxes are theft!!" people.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2018, 10:21:26 PM »
I just want to say that I'm sorry that you don't understand it.
I fully understand what you've said.  It's bunk.

I'm not convinced that you do.  Also... your opinion.

Quote
You're being "intentionally obtuse" (as another poster put it) and exaggeratory, I suppose b/c you want to feel that you're discriminated against (w.r.t. taxes) as a single person.

I disagree with you, and the other poster feels that SS is a transfer of wealth from younger people to rich people, which is a misleading generalization.  Anyone can confirm the figures I gave for accuracy.  I did not exaggerate those figures.

Quote
I attempted to point out how ridiculous your argument is via my examples, such as the family of 4 being disenfranchised b/c they have only 0.5 votes per person ... but I fear that my approach may've been too subtle.

I wasn't talking about voting, I was talking about taxes.  If you think kids should have a right to vote, then perhaps you should start a thread on that topic.

Quote
You're starting to feel like those "taxes are theft!!" people.

Again, feel free to double-check the math if you feel my figures are inaccurate as stated.

I've never said that taxes are theft, ever!  In fact, in the exact thread you linked to, which I had assumed you actually read before posting to, I made repeated posts that I wouldn't mind paying significantly HIGHER payroll taxes to shore up Social Security.  Does that sound like something you would hear from a person who thinks taxes are theft?

Conflating "fairness in taxation" with "taxes are theft" in response to what I posted is being obtuse.

If you read that thread, you will see that I didn't make the comments about household taxes for families until another poster complained  that he and his kids would have to fund SS to pay benefits to wealthy seniors, as if he and his kids were getting screwed by the tax system, despite the fact that they will receive their own benefits when they're older.  I didn't bring it up because I felt discriminated against as a single person, but as part of a larger argument to refute that he and his kids were getting screwed by paying payroll taxes, when in fact, they were benefiting significantly from the tax system in other ways.  So, I can see you missed some key posts in that thread, which explains your response.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 10:35:27 PM by DreamFIRE »

LonerMatt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 658
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2018, 10:31:46 PM »
I might be possible for me to be more left, but it'd be hard without me believing in horoscopes, wellness MLM bullshit and alternative medicine.



I generally believe that:
- Large businesses are inherently greedy and therefore unethical, and need to be restrained and regulated
- The Environment matters more than the Market
- Higher taxes and more generous public funding of media, health, institutions and education leads to an increase in egalitarian outcomes
- People should be free to be who and what they want
- Borders are stupid and the faster we move away from nation-state the faster we will progress to the next level of political enlightenment

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2018, 10:46:45 PM »
- Borders are stupid and the faster we move away from nation-state the faster we will progress to the next level of political enlightenment

Wow.  That is pretty far left.  I've known one person in real life that actually stated this, but I don't think it's something he really believes at heart and that he was just trying to contrast with my view on the issue, which I had already stated.  That's one of the reasons I said I don't consider myself "left" in the grand scheme of things.  I'm a strong believer in enforcement of the law against illegal immigration as well as border security.

shuffler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 305
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2018, 12:16:37 AM »
I attempted to point out how ridiculous your argument is via my examples, such as the family of 4 being disenfranchised b/c they have only 0.5 votes per person ... but I fear that my approach may've been too subtle.
I wasn't talking about voting, I was talking about taxes.  If you think kids should have a right to vote, then perhaps you should start a thread on that topic.
Hmm, it seems my approach *was* too subtle, as I had feared.

My voting-math is an analogy, intended to point out the absurdity of your tax-math.  Both the voting-math and the tax-math are correct, as far as math goes, but in both cases it's ridiculous to treat the children as full fledged adults.  Thus my facetious claim of 0.5 votes-per-person is as preposterous as your claim of 30x taxes-per-person in your scenario.

You make the choice to treat the family as a single unit when assigning income ($70k to both your single-earner and the family), but then switch to treating them as individuals in order to exaggerate your point of tax-dollars-per-person.  You're trying to have it both ways.

If you want to convince people that single-people's tax-dollars are subsidizing married people with children, then there are many more honest ways you could go about it.  Here are a few suggestions that would be more honest, and therefore probably more convincing:
  *  Compare two single/independent tax-payers making $70k each to a household of 4 (2 adults, 2 children) making $140k, and calculate the tax burden paid by each adult.  This would directly show the subsidy/savings when two formerly-single people decide to get together and have kids.
  *  Or if you want to focus only on the subsidy given for marriage, do the above comparison without the children.
  *  Or if you want to focus only on the subsidy given for children, then compare one $70k-earning single person to one $70k-earning single person with a single child (or more children if you prefer).

Again, feel free to double-check the math if you feel my figures are inaccurate as stated.
The point is not that your math was bad, but that your method was bad.  You added in a zero-earning spouse, and treated the children as zero-earning-adult-equivalents.  That's not an honest methodology.  (And I say that as guy with no kids, too.)

Anyhow, I'm trying to read the forum less these days, weekends-only.  So I'll probably not respond again, as I'll likely have lost interest by next weekend.  Maybe you'll provoke me again the next time you bring it up.  ;^)
 

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5817
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2018, 04:47:21 AM »
- Borders are stupid and the faster we move away from nation-state the faster we will progress to the next level of political enlightenment

Wow.  That is pretty far left.  I've known one person in real life that actually stated this, but I don't think it's something he really believes at heart and that he was just trying to contrast with my view on the issue, which I had already stated.  That's one of the reasons I said I don't consider myself "left" in the grand scheme of things.  I'm a strong believer in enforcement of the law against illegal immigration as well as border security.

Agree... too far left for me too. Though the free movement of people is totally compatible with far right free market capitalism (if you equate it to the free movement of capital and economic resources).

I am not going to be totally coherent and well thought out in my view here but I will express them as best I can.

Proper control of borders is essential to avoiding social problems. Some countries thrive on multi-culturalism and are able to accept immigration and integrating various races (e.g. Australia). Some don't (e.g. Japan or China). The beauty of our world is that there is that variety.

Having borders avoids the open slather that will inevitably destroy communities, and ruin the reasons why local populations enjoy living in their desired areas and countries.

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7811
  • Location: At Home
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2018, 04:51:40 AM »
Have you done the test @marty998  - it appears to me that all the Australians are coming out in the lower left quadrant (I did, and I wouldnít have put me there) - so I wondered where it put you.

BookLoverL

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • Location: England
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2018, 05:47:49 AM »
I've been various positions on the political spectrum/political compass in the past. These days my view doesn't really fit on the chart at all - I have various idiosyncratic positions and usually describe myself using something like "eco-localist".

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5015
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2018, 06:05:57 AM »
Pleasure to meet you.

While not in any way arguing with the way you self identify, after reading your list of political positions, perhaps part of difference is that different parts of the country have different lines for how socially liberal you have to be to be more liberal than conservative?

Where I come from, just a few of the basic positions I've highlighted below would be enough to make you left of center on social issues

Quote
However, socially:
-I believe gay marriage should be legal federally.
-I believe abortion should be legal for anyone who wants it.
...snip..
-I believe in strong separation of all churches and the state.
-I believe in free speech, as long as it is not hate speech.
...snip...
-I believe your rights end the second they infringe on someone else's. No business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any personal characteristic, only for misbehavior while in the business.

Of course, those may seem "liberal" by today's standards. But to be clear, I'm not saying I agree with all of them, I'm saying that in a strict interpretation of constitutional freedoms, it is not my right nor the government's right, to take those rights away from anyone else. There is nothing in the Bible about "banning" sin, after all. You can allow gay marriage without personally agreeing with every aspect of it. It's not my place to tell someone who to love, and if they want to, FINE. But I also believe in family values, I don't believe being gay is a "choice" - I believe it's inherent in a human's nature, that people can be completely heterosexual, completely homosexual, and bisexual to degrees along a spectrum. However, I strongly believe that the world should remain generally heteronormative and promoting of family values while allowing homosexuals and bisexuals the freedom to do what they please, so long as they do so within the context of the laws, which would be expanded to allow them to marry if they please. I do not believe that homosexual relationships need to be depicted on every show on television (the current crusade) to "normalize" this behavior, nor do I believe that the homosexual lifestyle should be placed in front of children so publicly and promoted as a choice. It's something people should just discover on their own, not something that you actively attempt to place on a podium opposite a heteronormative lifestyle to a confused, bisexual teenager who may be closer to one end of the bisexual spectrum than the other, and attempt to persuade him/her to embrace that life. But I have friends who are 100% gay, and they know it. I support their right to get married, if they want.

Part of believing in freedoms is recognizes that you do not have the freedom to strip freedoms from others, whether you agree with them or not. I think of that actually, at its core, as a VERY conservative position in the classical sense, not the neoconservative crap that is spouted today. Hell as far as I'm concerned, 2 of the best presidents in US history were Teddy Roosevelt and Eisenhower.

I also don't believe in the welfare state, and people should not be allowed to have kids who have no way of taking care of them. Having kids is not a freedom, your rights to be a parent end at that child's right to have a suitable upbringing. Pro birth is not the same thing as pro life (which I actually am, even if it means less births). Additionally, welfare is supposed to support you until you can find work again, not be a permanent crutch. While the majority of welfare users are honest, plenty of both races, aren't. Kick those people off it. Then they can stop being used as the strawman against a program designed to get people working again.

Wait what?

weirdlair

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 178
  • Location: Midwest
  • Impeach the orange idiot
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2018, 06:22:17 AM »
I used to vote for the candidate who was the least idiotic/evil, with no regard for party. (This is a very difficult thing to determine, but in each election I tried.)

However, the GOP's failure to reign in that stupid orange buffoon has caused me to rethink that. It was bad enough to have him elected, but their failure to do their jobs is terrifying.

With God as my witness, I'll not vote for a Republican ever again...until the Democrats screw up as royally.

This probably means I'll never vote for another Republican as long as I live, because I can't imagine our country being so horribly stupid again.

StarBright

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2018, 07:30:10 AM »
I have always considered myself a democrat nationally but an independent locally. Basically I feel like conservatism works on a micro scale (especially fiscally), but the more macro you get the fundamentals are just different. I have voted for republicans at the state level but not at the federal.

I have never thought of myself as a leftist until recently when family members started calling me a leftist :)

gaja

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2018, 07:48:47 AM »
Couldn't get further left on that test. I guess if you belong to the European far left, you would probably be outside the chart. Of the 9 parties in parliament, my usual choice is number two from the left (the guys left of me still think a revolution might be a good idea).

I pay my taxes without grumbling, and believe a lot services are more cost efficient when delivered by the public sector, including schools, health, infrastructure (electric grid, roads, railroads, etc), public transport, etc.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2018, 08:02:54 AM »
- Borders are stupid and the faster we move away from nation-state the faster we will progress to the next level of political enlightenment

Wow.  That is pretty far left.  I've known one person in real life that actually stated this, but I don't think it's something he really believes at heart and that he was just trying to contrast with my view on the issue, which I had already stated.  That's one of the reasons I said I don't consider myself "left" in the grand scheme of things.  I'm a strong believer in enforcement of the law against illegal immigration as well as border security.

I really disagree with that.    Separate nation-states enable us to have different cultures with different rules.   Some will be more successful, some will be less.    Removing borders will not improve political enlightenment.

shenlong55

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2018, 08:56:49 AM »
I attempted to point out how ridiculous your argument is via my examples, such as the family of 4 being disenfranchised b/c they have only 0.5 votes per person ... but I fear that my approach may've been too subtle.
I wasn't talking about voting, I was talking about taxes.  If you think kids should have a right to vote, then perhaps you should start a thread on that topic.
Hmm, it seems my approach *was* too subtle, as I had feared.

My voting-math is an analogy, intended to point out the absurdity of your tax-math.  Both the voting-math and the tax-math are correct, as far as math goes, but in both cases it's ridiculous to treat the children as full fledged adults.  Thus my facetious claim of 0.5 votes-per-person is as preposterous as your claim of 30x taxes-per-person in your scenario.

You make the choice to treat the family as a single unit when assigning income ($70k to both your single-earner and the family), but then switch to treating them as individuals in order to exaggerate your point of tax-dollars-per-person.  You're trying to have it both ways.

If you want to convince people that single-people's tax-dollars are subsidizing married people with children, then there are many more honest ways you could go about it.  Here are a few suggestions that would be more honest, and therefore probably more convincing:
  *  Compare two single/independent tax-payers making $70k each to a household of 4 (2 adults, 2 children) making $140k, and calculate the tax burden paid by each adult.  This would directly show the subsidy/savings when two formerly-single people decide to get together and have kids.
  *  Or if you want to focus only on the subsidy given for marriage, do the above comparison without the children.
  *  Or if you want to focus only on the subsidy given for children, then compare one $70k-earning single person to one $70k-earning single person with a single child (or more children if you prefer).

Again, feel free to double-check the math if you feel my figures are inaccurate as stated.
The point is not that your math was bad, but that your method was bad.  You added in a zero-earning spouse, and treated the children as zero-earning-adult-equivalents.  That's not an honest methodology.  (And I say that as guy with no kids, too.)

Anyhow, I'm trying to read the forum less these days, weekends-only.  So I'll probably not respond again, as I'll likely have lost interest by next weekend.  Maybe you'll provoke me again the next time you bring it up.  ;^)

I've got to agree with shuffler on this one.  His methodologies seem more accurate to me.

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2999
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2018, 09:05:13 AM »
I realized I was mostly pointing out the problems with DreamFire's methodology in one of the other threads where they are currently complaining about what a sweet deal people with children get on their taxes, so just wanted to post here and agree with shuffler and shenlong55 on the problems with the methodology:

-Current approach both confounds the (sometimes really big) tax benefits from marrying a zero income spouse with the comparatively modest tax benefits provided for having children.

-Comparing tax paid per person instead of tax paid per household is only valid if you are arguing that a household of four should pay 4x as much income tax as a single person with the same income. Since it is not unheard of for a single person's effective tax rate to exceed 25%, that would mean that high income four person households were expected to pay >100% effective income tax to be "fair."

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9432
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2018, 09:08:52 AM »
I'm also bottom left on the quadrants.  When I took the test several years ago they also showed Stephen Harper - top right.  Not surprising I didn't agree with his policies.

Not everyone shows country in the ID - which country you live in is going to affect your comments a lot.  Maybe those whose country is not shown could say that in this thread?  An American* is going to be coming from a different viewpoint than an Aussie.  Politically and tax-wise.  And quite possibly state/province will also have a  major effect.

*
Spoiler: show
I would hope the Americans posting here are not so country-centric in their world view that they only think of their own country in this discussion.

LonerMatt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 658
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2018, 02:10:07 PM »
As more and more issues are increasingly global (climate change, immigration, use of limited resources with increasing population, etc) nation states are less able to respond to those issues appropriate or effectively.

Almost all conceptions of the far future that aren't negative involve increased global co-operation and a transition away from nation states (though there's lots of alternatives, including non-national voting blocks).

Culture existed well before nations and will always exist, to imply it relies on borders is bizarre, it never has and never will.

Marty, just to quibble with you a little, to hold China (incredibly multi-ethnic) as an example of mono culture (given that they are, arguably, committing genocide in many of the non-Han majority parts of the country) seems a pretty poor argument. Japan, too, has massive issues with systemic inequality towards 'Koreans' (33rd/4th generation Japanese people who often have to have special ID documents given that their grandparents were born in Manchuria during WW2) again seems a bizarre 'everyone can have what they want and that's nice' argument. Both countries enforce - often with immoral action and consequence - a government sanctioned idea of what it is to be accepted. Doesn't sound very good to me, nor something we should accept as a given.

I also don't think it's acceptable that someone born in a war zone should just lump it because it's a quirk of fate. That's bullshit and those people shouldn't be restricted or used as political footballs.

v8rx7guy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Location: PNW
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2018, 02:37:23 PM »
I've actually never taken a test like this before, but it probably explains why I'm so strange when it comes to politics:


scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Are you the left?
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2018, 02:56:46 PM »
Culture existed well before nations and will always exist, to imply it relies on borders is bizarre, it never has and never will.

I say you're wrong.

Look at Norway.     
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Norway

China's interesting.   It's an amalgam of cultures which are gradually being absorbed into one capitalist-totalitarian culture.

Compare Canada and the US.   We're both a mix of many different cultures due to our long history of immigration, yet the countries are very different in terms of social program and military adventures.

Maybe you mean something different than I do when you write 'culture'.    I view culture to be a mix of the law, social norms and behaviours found in a region.   I can only think of things that would be lost if we were to consolidate everyone into one big mixing pot of people.    Would we have rule of law?   Or rule by and for the ruling class?     Would we have European social programs or no social programs?    Would we relax by watching TV shows or by playing sports?    What would be the basis for forming public policy?