The Money Mustache Community

Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Wexler on September 04, 2018, 07:42:08 AM

Title: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Wexler on September 04, 2018, 07:42:08 AM
This one is non-partisan.  Being a good voter is just showing up, whoever you vote for. U.S. Mustachians have an abundance of the functional adult behaviors that should see us turning out to vote in every election at close to 80%.  Realistically, probably only 50% of those of us who are eligible will turn out to vote in the midterms.  I  think we can do better.  After all, we blow the curve in terms of saving.


1. Are you registered to vote?

https://www.vote.org/am-i-registered-to-vote/

Skipping even one election can get you removed from the polls.  Have you moved?  Go ahead and check your registration status.



2. Do you know the deadline for registering to vote in your state?

I was surprised to learn that our biggest and smallest state are on deck first.  Alaska and Rhode Island deadlines are October 7.

A bunch of states require registration by October 9: Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Nevada, Michigan, New Mexico, Texas among many others

https://www.benjerry.com/whats-new/2016/voter-registration-deadlines


3. Find your ballot and figure out who you want to vote for

I couldn't find a central link that serves as a portal to every voter's ballot this election, but vote.org has state-by-state information:

https://www.vote.org/state/florida/

https://www.vote.org/state/nevada/



Any other good resources?  I'm keeping October 9 in mind to remind friends and family across the country to register. 
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: MDM on September 04, 2018, 08:45:27 AM
Try https://www.vote411.org/.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on September 04, 2018, 09:39:34 AM
I've voted at every possible chance since coming of age to do so.  :P
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 05, 2018, 06:05:33 AM
I'm with GuitarStv, and that includes municipal elections.*  And I encourage DD to vote too, her age group doesn't get to the polls enough.

*Here municipal elections are separate from Federal and Provincial elections, it is not all one giant slate like I gather occurs in the US.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on September 05, 2018, 06:13:14 AM
Never missed an election yet (to my knowledge). But thanks for bringing this up.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Khaetra on September 05, 2018, 07:08:40 AM
My motto is 'if you don't vote, you can't bitch'.  I vote for everything that I am eligible to.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GreenEggs on September 05, 2018, 08:15:48 AM
Improving voter turnout is something that I've always heard it important.  But why should citizens that are clueless about the issues be encouraged to vote? 


Many people choose who to vote for over just a few issues, or they just vote for "their" party.  Unless voters educate themselves and actually care about our society as a whole, more than their own selfish agendas I don't understand why it is so important for them to vote.


I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views? 



Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 05, 2018, 09:17:03 AM

I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

Because then the government would better reflect the views of the voters?

Plus my understanding is that younger voters have either not yet turned their focus on voting or are totally disillusioned by it.  Canada's voting rate goes down every election.  Much as I want my views represented, I am only one demographic, a demographic that tends to vote.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on September 05, 2018, 09:31:40 AM

I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

Because then the government would better reflect the views of the voters?

Plus my understanding is that younger voters have either not yet turned their focus on voting or are totally disillusioned by it.  Canada's voting rate goes down every election.  Much as I want my views represented, I am only one demographic, a demographic that tends to vote.

As much as I'd like everyone to do the things that I like, a democracy doesn't work (and will eventually catastrophically fail) if the people it serves fail to participate in it.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 05, 2018, 10:09:33 AM

I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

Because then the government would better reflect the views of the voters?

Plus my understanding is that younger voters have either not yet turned their focus on voting or are totally disillusioned by it.  Canada's voting rate goes down every election.  Much as I want my views represented, I am only one demographic, a demographic that tends to vote.

As much as I'd like everyone to do the things that I like, a democracy doesn't work (and will eventually catastrophically fail) if the people it serves fail to participate in it.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GreenEggs on September 05, 2018, 10:32:14 AM
How can uninformed people make good choices?  That's the part I don't get. 


"I'm voting to keep my guns (or whatever), and I don't give a damn about "anything" else."  Isn't a positive vote. 


A few million "shit votes" doesn't improve our democracy.  Look what we have today.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Wexler on September 05, 2018, 11:18:54 AM
We already have an uninformed electorate, and they are the ones more likely to vote:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/07/21/a-rigorous-scientific-look-into-the-fox-news-effect/#736aa7a012ab

Our democracy is full of shit votes, but having a more representative electorate will, I hope lessen the possibility of the venality of one party representation.  You get your Duncan Hunters when the electorate is so in your pocket that they scarcely have any standards at all.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Khaetra on September 05, 2018, 11:22:39 AM
How can uninformed people make good choices?  That's the part I don't get. 


"I'm voting to keep my guns (or whatever), and I don't give a damn about "anything" else."  Isn't a positive vote. 


A few million "shit votes" doesn't improve our democracy.  Look what we have today.

I agree.  I would rather have a bunch of uninformed non-voters than those who only vote for one issue (guns, abortion, etc.) and screw what's good for the Country as a whole.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Cache_Stash on September 05, 2018, 12:45:33 PM
Make a poll so we can vote.:p
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Zikoris on September 07, 2018, 07:07:17 PM
I've voted in every election I was ever allowed to.

There was one municipal election I was going to skip, and then some assholes woke me up early in the morning on election day by banging on my door telling me to vote for their people. I immediately went to the polls and rage-voted against them.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: js82 on September 09, 2018, 07:17:23 AM

I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

This attitude is a big part of why politics in the U.S. are broken.  When politics becomes about "winning" rather than representation, you have our current mess.

Most of the issues we hear about today - gun violence(and potential measures to address it), immigration, taxes, welfare benefits - these are all subtle, nuanced issues - they're complex enough that all the talking heads that oversimply them in attempts to fuel partisan rage are almost universally wrong by default - the simple answer *can't possibly* be the correct answer, because the problem itself is too complex for that to be possible - but unfortunately the complex, nuanced approach is a harder sell to voters.

If we keep on fueling the partisan/tribal game with the goal of each side being "victory", we're doomed in the long run.  Reaching out and raising the level of dialogue on real issues of consequence is the only way this ends well.  Part of that is encouraging political engagement - not just voting, but encouraging individuals to find a reason to vote the way they do.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: scottish on September 09, 2018, 05:27:26 PM
I always vote.

I couple of years back I realized I could have even more influence by joining political parties and participating in the leadership selection process.


I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

This attitude is a big part of why politics in the U.S. are broken.  When politics becomes about "winning" rather than representation, you have our current mess.

Most of the issues we hear about today - gun violence(and potential measures to address it), immigration, taxes, welfare benefits - these are all subtle, nuanced issues - they're complex enough that all the talking heads that oversimply them in attempts to fuel partisan rage are almost universally wrong by default - the simple answer *can't possibly* be the correct answer, because the problem itself is too complex for that to be possible - but unfortunately the complex, nuanced approach is a harder sell to voters.

If we keep on fueling the partisan/tribal game with the goal of each side being "victory", we're doomed in the long run.  Reaching out and raising the level of dialogue on real issues of consequence is the only way this ends well.  Part of that is encouraging political engagement - not just voting, but encouraging individuals to find a reason to vote the way they do.

I agree.   It's hard though, a lot of people always vote for the same party without looking at their past performance.   The talking heads often leave out key facts as well.    Sometimes it seems like everything is dumbed down.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GreenEggs on September 09, 2018, 05:59:42 PM

I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

This attitude is a big part of why politics in the U.S. are broken.  When politics becomes about "winning" rather than representation, you have our current mess.

Most of the issues we hear about today - gun violence(and potential measures to address it), immigration, taxes, welfare benefits - these are all subtle, nuanced issues - they're complex enough that all the talking heads that oversimply them in attempts to fuel partisan rage are almost universally wrong by default - the simple answer *can't possibly* be the correct answer, because the problem itself is too complex for that to be possible - but unfortunately the complex, nuanced approach is a harder sell to voters.

If we keep on fueling the partisan/tribal game with the goal of each side being "victory", we're doomed in the long run.  Reaching out and raising the level of dialogue on real issues of consequence is the only way this ends well. Part of that is encouraging political engagement - not just voting, but encouraging individuals to find a reason to vote the way they do.


Yes, I agree with this.   


If they don't have a clue about the issues their vote probably isn't "helping". 
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 09, 2018, 07:57:47 PM

I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

This attitude is a big part of why politics in the U.S. are broken.  When politics becomes about "winning" rather than representation, you have our current mess.

Most of the issues we hear about today - gun violence(and potential measures to address it), immigration, taxes, welfare benefits - these are all subtle, nuanced issues - they're complex enough that all the talking heads that oversimply them in attempts to fuel partisan rage are almost universally wrong by default - the simple answer *can't possibly* be the correct answer, because the problem itself is too complex for that to be possible - but unfortunately the complex, nuanced approach is a harder sell to voters.

If we keep on fueling the partisan/tribal game with the goal of each side being "victory", we're doomed in the long run.  Reaching out and raising the level of dialogue on real issues of consequence is the only way this ends well. Part of that is encouraging political engagement - not just voting, but encouraging individuals to find a reason to vote the way they do.


Yes, I agree with this.   


If they don't have a clue about the issues their vote probably isn't "helping".

A simple test question might help at the poll - for here, for federal election, say, name the leaders of the Conservative, Liberal, NDP and Green parties. You know, you get a ballot.  You don't, nice seeing you, but you aren't paying attention, you don't get to vote.

* More radical - I remember R.A. Heinlein (retired U.S. military, big on honour/duty) musing about voting rights.  He threw out some interesting ones.  Only women (to make up for the centuries with no vote) but no men (because they have botched things over and over).  Or more radically, and not one I personally like) only women who have borne a child, showing they have an investment in the future.  Or remove the minimum age but put in a test - 14 year old goes in, solves a simple quadratic equation, votes, her father goes in, flunks, doesn't vote.  Any 14 year old who goes to this effort is likely to be an informed voter.  Or, only veterans but only after they retired (in Starship Troopers, this included all sorts, not just combat veterans, I would be eligible as a retired teacher, all those years of public service and low salary).

There are times I think we are going the way of Komarr and Jackson's Whole, you have the money, you have the power.  I get the feeling some Libertarians (not all) would like Jackson's Whole, as long as they were Head of a House.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Kris on September 10, 2018, 05:50:29 AM

I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

This attitude is a big part of why politics in the U.S. are broken.  When politics becomes about "winning" rather than representation, you have our current mess.

Most of the issues we hear about today - gun violence(and potential measures to address it), immigration, taxes, welfare benefits - these are all subtle, nuanced issues - they're complex enough that all the talking heads that oversimply them in attempts to fuel partisan rage are almost universally wrong by default - the simple answer *can't possibly* be the correct answer, because the problem itself is too complex for that to be possible - but unfortunately the complex, nuanced approach is a harder sell to voters.

If we keep on fueling the partisan/tribal game with the goal of each side being "victory", we're doomed in the long run.  Reaching out and raising the level of dialogue on real issues of consequence is the only way this ends well. Part of that is encouraging political engagement - not just voting, but encouraging individuals to find a reason to vote the way they do.


Yes, I agree with this.   


If they don't have a clue about the issues their vote probably isn't "helping".

A simple test question might help at the poll - for here, for federal election, say, name the leaders of the Conservative, Liberal, NDP and Green parties. You know, you get a ballot.  You don't, nice seeing you, but you aren't paying attention, you don't get to vote.

* More radical - I remember R.A. Heinlein (retired U.S. military, big on honour/duty) musing about voting rights.  He threw out some interesting ones.  Only women (to make up for the centuries with no vote) but no men (because they have botched things over and over).  Or more radically, and not one I personally like) only women who have borne a child, showing they have an investment in the future.  Or remove the minimum age but put in a test - 14 year old goes in, solves a simple quadratic equation, votes, her father goes in, flunks, doesn't vote.  Any 14 year old who goes to this effort is likely to be an informed voter.  Or, only veterans but only after they retired (in Starship Troopers, this included all sorts, not just combat veterans, I would be eligible as a retired teacher, all those years of public service and low salary).

There are times I think we are going the way of Komarr and Jackson's Whole, you have the money, you have the power.  I get the feeling some Libertarians (not all) would like Jackson's Whole, as long as they were Head of a House.

Except that we already have a history of this in this country. And it resulted in poll employees asking black people insanely complicated or obscure questions that they didnt have a hope of answering. Precisely to stop them voting.

No thanks. I would much rather go the route of encouraging everyone to vote, and increasing civics education in schools/providing actual meaningful info about campaigns while also enacting serious campaign finance reform.

Which isnt gonna happen. Pie in the sky.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 10, 2018, 08:31:47 AM

A simple test question might help at the poll - for here, for federal election, say, name the leaders of the Conservative, Liberal, NDP and Green parties. You know, you get a ballot.  You don't, nice seeing you, but you aren't paying attention, you don't get to vote.

* More radical - I remember R.A. Heinlein (retired U.S. military, big on honour/duty) musing about voting rights.  He threw out some interesting ones.  Only women (to make up for the centuries with no vote) but no men (because they have botched things over and over).  Or more radically, and not one I personally like) only women who have borne a child, showing they have an investment in the future.  Or remove the minimum age but put in a test - 14 year old goes in, solves a simple quadratic equation, votes, her father goes in, flunks, doesn't vote.  Any 14 year old who goes to this effort is likely to be an informed voter.  Or, only veterans but only after they retired (in Starship Troopers, this included all sorts, not just combat veterans, I would be eligible as a retired teacher, all those years of public service and low salary).

There are times I think we are going the way of Komarr and Jackson's Whole, you have the money, you have the power.  I get the feeling some Libertarians (not all) would like Jackson's Whole, as long as they were Head of a House.

Except that we already have a history of this in this country.

No thanks. I would much rather go the route of encouraging everyone to vote, and increasing civics education in schools/providing actual meaningful info about campaigns while also enacting serious campaign finance reform.

Which isnt gonna happen. Pie in the sky.https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/bold.gif

I too would rather see everyone vote. But re the question, same one for everyone.  No discretion on the part of the workers at the polls, who would be employees of Elections Canada, or the provincial equivalent.  Otherwise, as you said, it can be misused to deny a voter the ballot.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on September 10, 2018, 08:49:49 AM

A simple test question might help at the poll - for here, for federal election, say, name the leaders of the Conservative, Liberal, NDP and Green parties. You know, you get a ballot.  You don't, nice seeing you, but you aren't paying attention, you don't get to vote.

* More radical - I remember R.A. Heinlein (retired U.S. military, big on honour/duty) musing about voting rights.  He threw out some interesting ones.  Only women (to make up for the centuries with no vote) but no men (because they have botched things over and over).  Or more radically, and not one I personally like) only women who have borne a child, showing they have an investment in the future.  Or remove the minimum age but put in a test - 14 year old goes in, solves a simple quadratic equation, votes, her father goes in, flunks, doesn't vote.  Any 14 year old who goes to this effort is likely to be an informed voter.  Or, only veterans but only after they retired (in Starship Troopers, this included all sorts, not just combat veterans, I would be eligible as a retired teacher, all those years of public service and low salary).

There are times I think we are going the way of Komarr and Jackson's Whole, you have the money, you have the power.  I get the feeling some Libertarians (not all) would like Jackson's Whole, as long as they were Head of a House.

Except that we already have a history of this in this country.

No thanks. I would much rather go the route of encouraging everyone to vote, and increasing civics education in schools/providing actual meaningful info about campaigns while also enacting serious campaign finance reform.

Which isnt gonna happen. Pie in the sky.https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/bold.gif

I too would rather see everyone vote. But re the question, same one for everyone.  No discretion on the part of the workers at the polls, who would be employees of Elections Canada, or the provincial equivalent.  Otherwise, as you said, it can be misused to deny a voter the ballot.

Even if you use the same question for everyone, the questions can be structured in such a way that they disadvantage particular minorities.
 This sort of thing is commonly seen in educational testing (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html)).  Given the recent track record of Republicans taking action specifically to disenfranchise minority voters, it would be a mistake to assume that standardized questions will safeguard against this.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 10, 2018, 02:50:10 PM
Even if you use the same question for everyone, the questions can be structured in such a way that they disadvantage particular minorities.
 This sort of thing is commonly seen in educational testing (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html)).  Given the recent track record of Republicans taking action specifically to disenfranchise minority voters, it would be a mistake to assume that standardized questions will safeguard against this.

Hmm.  I remember reading that an IQ test asked the colour of milk, and blue wasn't acceptable as an answer, but of course skim milk is bluish.  And considering it further, any written test will be an issue for those who are illiterate (which would be many really old rural people in Canada, who left school young) and any oral test can be abused.  So we can drop testing - bad idea.

So how do we get voters out?  Australia makes it mandatory - Australians reading this, does "having to vote" encourage people who otherwise would not vote to actually pay attention to the issues?  Or do they just pay marginal attention and then vote however they feel like at the moment?

Making registration easy and convenient is obviously part of it.  I have to admit I am behind the times here in Canada - I can remember when we were enumerated door to door, but now I just tick the registration for Elections Canada box on my income tax return - so easy.  But if I weren't filing taxes, I have no idea how easy it would be to register to vote.  Elections Canada tells how here (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=fir/gui/video4&document=index&lang=e#a3 (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=fir/gui/video4&document=index&lang=e#a3)) but without a computer it would be more difficult.  And if I were disabled or had other things making it harder for me, I can see it being a problem.  On the other hand, I do remember the time DD wanted to vote, couldn't get home from school to vote at our polling station, and just got to her nearest polling station in our riding, showed ID, and voted.

Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: I'm a red panda on September 10, 2018, 03:54:47 PM
I vote in everything except city elections where every seat is uncontested
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: PDXTabs on September 10, 2018, 04:16:49 PM
I'm an even better voter than I am a saver.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Sibley on September 12, 2018, 12:03:08 PM
I vote. Every election. I've missed one or 2 primaries I know. There's a special election this month, I have a piece of paper with the early voting information on it so I can go this weekend.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: nnls on September 29, 2018, 11:08:18 PM
Even if you use the same question for everyone, the questions can be structured in such a way that they disadvantage particular minorities.
 This sort of thing is commonly seen in educational testing (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html)).  Given the recent track record of Republicans taking action specifically to disenfranchise minority voters, it would be a mistake to assume that standardized questions will safeguard against this.

Hmm.  I remember reading that an IQ test asked the colour of milk, and blue wasn't acceptable as an answer, but of course skim milk is bluish.  And considering it further, any written test will be an issue for those who are illiterate (which would be many really old rural people in Canada, who left school young) and any oral test can be abused.  So we can drop testing - bad idea.

So how do we get voters out?  Australia makes it mandatory - Australians reading this, does "having to vote" encourage people who otherwise would not vote to actually pay attention to the issues?  Or do they just pay marginal attention and then vote however they feel like at the moment?

Making registration easy and convenient is obviously part of it.  I have to admit I am behind the times here in Canada - I can remember when we were enumerated door to door, but now I just tick the registration for Elections Canada box on my income tax return - so easy.  But if I weren't filing taxes, I have no idea how easy it would be to register to vote.  Elections Canada tells how here (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=fir/gui/video4&document=index&lang=e#a3 (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=fir/gui/video4&document=index&lang=e#a3)) but without a computer it would be more difficult.  And if I were disabled or had other things making it harder for me, I can see it being a problem.  On the other hand, I do remember the time DD wanted to vote, couldn't get home from school to vote at our polling station, and just got to her nearest polling station in our riding, showed ID, and voted.

I feel like a lot of people dont pay attention and just vote for a party, we do preferential voting so you have to list your preferences and some just do whatever there preferred party suggests.
 
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: mrmoonymartian on September 29, 2018, 11:50:14 PM
Even if you use the same question for everyone, the questions can be structured in such a way that they disadvantage particular minorities.
 This sort of thing is commonly seen in educational testing (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html (https://culturalbiasinstandardizedtesting.weebly.com/what-is-cultural-bias-in-standardized-test.html)).  Given the recent track record of Republicans taking action specifically to disenfranchise minority voters, it would be a mistake to assume that standardized questions will safeguard against this.

Hmm.  I remember reading that an IQ test asked the colour of milk, and blue wasn't acceptable as an answer, but of course skim milk is bluish.  And considering it further, any written test will be an issue for those who are illiterate (which would be many really old rural people in Canada, who left school young) and any oral test can be abused.  So we can drop testing - bad idea.

So how do we get voters out?  Australia makes it mandatory - Australians reading this, does "having to vote" encourage people who otherwise would not vote to actually pay attention to the issues?  Or do they just pay marginal attention and then vote however they feel like at the moment?

Making registration easy and convenient is obviously part of it.  I have to admit I am behind the times here in Canada - I can remember when we were enumerated door to door, but now I just tick the registration for Elections Canada box on my income tax return - so easy.  But if I weren't filing taxes, I have no idea how easy it would be to register to vote.  Elections Canada tells how here (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=fir/gui/video4&document=index&lang=e#a3 (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=fir/gui/video4&document=index&lang=e#a3)) but without a computer it would be more difficult.  And if I were disabled or had other things making it harder for me, I can see it being a problem.  On the other hand, I do remember the time DD wanted to vote, couldn't get home from school to vote at our polling station, and just got to her nearest polling station in our riding, showed ID, and voted.
I feel like I don't know because I only pay marginal attention to other people.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: sol on October 01, 2018, 08:35:46 AM
How can uninformed people make good choices?  That's the part I don't get. 
...
A few million "shit votes" doesn't improve our democracy.

Some of our founding fathers made that exact same argument.  Slaves can't vote, they don't understand the intricacies of politics!  Women can't vote, their voices are already represented by their husbands!  Indentured servants can't vote, their opinions are bad for the country!

Here's an alternative view:  every adult should vote.  Stupid ignorant people should vote.  Felons should vote.  Religious zealots with suicide vests should vote.  Politicians should vote.  Stupid criminal religious politicians should vote.  This whole thing just works better when everyone's voices are heard.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Dabnasty on October 01, 2018, 08:54:48 AM
How can uninformed people make good choices?  That's the part I don't get. 
...
A few million "shit votes" doesn't improve our democracy.

Some of our founding fathers made that exact same argument.  Slaves can't vote, they don't understand the intricacies of politics!  Women can't vote, their voices are already represented by their husbands!  Indentured servants can't vote, their opinions are bad for the country!

Here's an alternative view:  every adult should vote.  Stupid ignorant people should vote.  Felons should vote.  Religious zealots with suicide vests should vote.  Politicians should vote.  Stupid criminal religious politicians should vote.  This whole thing just works better when everyone's voices are heard.

All of your examples involve limiting voting rights of oppressed groups. Their opinions were bad for the people oppressing them, so they didn't let them vote. Quite different than not encouraging everyone who has the right to use it.

That said, I don't have a hard position on encouraging everyone to vote or required voting, it may be for the best given where we are right now.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: sol on October 01, 2018, 08:59:12 AM
All of your examples involve limiting voting rights of oppressed groups. Their opinions were bad for the people oppressing them, so they didn't let them vote. Quite different than not encouraging everyone who has the right to use it.

It's a distinction without a difference, I think.  Either you want more people to vote or you want fewer people to vote, and there are significant philosophical underpinnings of either argument.  I think we're on the same side, though.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: ixtap on October 01, 2018, 01:18:21 PM
The last two states I have lived in are California and Texas. The ballots are so long. I have already started doing my research, sharing my opinions as they are formed (and the why, of course) and generally encouraging my friends and associates to get informed rather than voting party lines or relying on the ads.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: seattlecyclone on October 01, 2018, 04:27:39 PM
The last two states I have lived in are California and Texas. The ballots are so long. I have already started doing my research, sharing my opinions as they are formed (and the why, of course) and generally encouraging my friends and associates to get informed rather than voting party lines or relying on the ads.

This bit is why I'm so glad to have mail-in voting here in Washington. Hardly anyone is going to do a bunch of research on a dozen different races, make a cheat sheet before they go to the polls, and bring it in with them when they vote. When you're voting by mail, you can look up pro/con statements about all of the candidates and initiatives and make an informed decision for each thing as you go.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: ixtap on October 01, 2018, 04:31:05 PM
The last two states I have lived in are California and Texas. The ballots are so long. I have already started doing my research, sharing my opinions as they are formed (and the why, of course) and generally encouraging my friends and associates to get informed rather than voting party lines or relying on the ads.

This bit is why I'm so glad to have mail-in voting here in Washington. Hardly anyone is going to do a bunch of research on a dozen different races, make a cheat sheet before they go to the polls, and bring it in with them when they vote. When you're voting by mail, you can look up pro/con statements about all of the candidates and initiatives and make an informed decision for each thing as you go.

CA does have mail in voting, but I go to the polls to make sure that we keep them open.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GreenEggs on October 01, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
All of your examples involve limiting voting rights of oppressed groups. Their opinions were bad for the people oppressing them, so they didn't let them vote. Quite different than not encouraging everyone who has the right to use it.

It's a distinction without a difference, I think.  Either you want more people to vote or you want fewer people to vote, and there are significant philosophical underpinnings of either argument.  I think we're on the same side, though.


I hope I'm on your side too.  Because I sure don't want to get on your bad side!  ;)



Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: nnls on October 01, 2018, 09:59:21 PM
Here in Australia we have had a senator submit for voluntary boting for people ages  16-17

Submissions to a Senate inquiry into lowering the voting age to 16 have been broadly supportive, with some concerns about the idea of making voting voluntary for under-18s (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/sep/29/lowering-australias-voting-age-would-give-voice-to-youth-but-risks-politicising-them-senators-told)
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GrayGhost on October 01, 2018, 10:08:28 PM
Here's an alternative view:  every adult should vote.  Stupid ignorant people should vote.  Felons should vote.  Religious zealots with suicide vests should vote.  Politicians should vote.  Stupid criminal religious politicians should vote.  This whole thing just works better when everyone's voices are heard.

I appreciate the idealism, but I would absolutely prefer it if communists, Nazis, religious extremists strapped with suicide vests, and similar wouldn't vote. I think things would work out quite better if their voices were not heard, or at the very least, marginalized.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: sol on October 01, 2018, 10:10:32 PM
I appreciate the idealism, but I would absolutely prefer it if communists, Nazis, religious extremists strapped with suicide vests, and similar wouldn't vote. I think things would work out quite better if their voices were not heard, or at the very least, marginalized.

You don't think those people are voting right now?  I think they are, and they have a larger say in the direction of our country precisely because so many other people don't vote.  I want everyone to vote, so that we can dilute the crazy.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 02, 2018, 08:17:55 AM
Here's an alternative view:  every adult should vote.  Stupid ignorant people should vote.  Felons should vote.  Religious zealots with suicide vests should vote.  Politicians should vote.  Stupid criminal religious politicians should vote.  This whole thing just works better when everyone's voices are heard.

I appreciate the idealism, but I would absolutely prefer it if communists, Nazis, religious extremists strapped with suicide vests, and similar wouldn't vote. I think things would work out quite better if their voices were not heard, or at the very least, marginalized.

The thing is, everyone has groups of people that they don't want to vote.  You don't want religious extremists strapped with suicide vests . . . but maybe I see religious extremists strapped with crosses and 'abortion is murder' signs in the same light.  You don't want communists to vote, but maybe I see capitalists in the same light.  Maybe I don't want anyone who tacitly supports Nazis to be able to vote . . . this would of course mean than no Republican would be allowed to step up to the voting booth.

Rather than the thorny and morally fraught task of picking 'worthy' voters, it's a lot easier to encourage everyone to vote - including the crazies.  If they're truly crazy, then as sol mentioned their vote will be diluted.  The norm will outweigh them.  When most people in the middle fail to vote it gives outsized power to fringe minorities.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: sol on October 02, 2018, 08:22:58 AM
When most people in the middle fail to vote it gives outsized power to fringe minorities.

Exactly!  And then crazy shit happens, like reality tv personalities become the President of the United States of America.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: mrmoonymartian on October 03, 2018, 01:32:32 AM
Why not just outsource your voting to China? Think of the savings!
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: gaja on October 03, 2018, 02:04:53 AM
My motto is 'if you don't vote, you can't bitch'.  I vote for everything that I am eligible to.

Not only that, but you get the bitching rights of the non-voters in your area too! My neighborhood has the lowest voting stats in Norway, with 36% in local elections and 56% in national. That means I can bitch for two on national issues, and for three on local issues.

Before the next local election, Im considering trying to find the two other people Im voting for to inform them what happens when they give people like me so much power: oh, you dont like toll roads, and would like to keep cheap parking in town? Shame that, since Im going to vote to get the cars out of town. You would like lower taxes? Sorry, mate. You snooze, you lose.

As for the argument that it is better to have fewer informed voters than many uninformed; It has already been explained well in the thread that we need the masses to dilute the crazies. An other aspect to consider is the Dunning-Kruger effect. The best way to make sure the well informed voters stay at home, is to spread the sentiment that you should not vote unless you feel really confident about your opinion.

Sometimes, your vote is more efficient against something than for it. We have a lot of political parties, and it can be difficult to find the perfect match. I heard one guy suggest the following voting process: take one of each ballot. Remove the ones you really hate. Mix up the rest. Close your eyes and pick one, and put it in the envelope without looking.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 03, 2018, 07:15:02 AM
Why not just outsource your voting to China? Think of the savings!

Look what happened in the last election when voting was outsourced to Russia . . .
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 20, 2018, 05:05:29 AM
Gaja has a point -  make sure you don't vote for the candidates you are opposed to  - which means yo do need to get out and vote for someone whose views are OK, even if they are not perfect.

Ontario Municipal elections are on now, how many of us Ontarians are voting?

I feel sorry for Americans, if they have long ballots - federal election I do one vote, for my MP (Member of Parliament), provincial election I do one vote (MPP), municipal election I do 3 votes ( 2 Councillors for my ward, 1 for Mayor).  It means I can focus on one issue, who do I want to represent me at this level?
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on October 20, 2018, 09:48:41 AM
Improving voter turnout is something that I've always heard it important.  But why should citizens that are clueless about the issues be encouraged to vote? 


Many people choose who to vote for over just a few issues, or they just vote for "their" party.  Unless voters educate themselves and actually care about our society as a whole, more than their own selfish agendas I don't understand why it is so important for them to vote.


I mean I'd rather encourage more people that share my beliefs to vote.  Why should I encourage "everyone" to vote, realizing 1/2 of them oppose my views?

Hear, hear!

Under no circumstances would I encourage an uninformed,  eligible voter to vote merely so they can have the satisfaction of having voted.

I have no criticism of any eligible voter  who, after reviewing the issues and candidates' records/positions decides "none of them are  for me" and decides not to vote for any of them.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 20, 2018, 12:29:16 PM
Ontario Municipal elections are on now, how many of us Ontarians are voting?

I voted a couple weekends ago.  Early voting is awesome, no line, no fuss and you get home in no time at all.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 20, 2018, 01:21:20 PM
Ontario Municipal elections are on now, how many of us Ontarians are voting?

I voted a couple weekends ago.  Early voting is awesome, no line, no fuss and you get home in no time at all.

It's all on-line/phone anyway, so I am going to vote tonight when I come back in from gardening.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: tyort1 on October 21, 2018, 02:33:30 PM
My motto is 'if you don't vote, you can't bitch'.  I vote for everything that I am eligible to.

Not only that, but you get the bitching rights of the non-voters in your area too! My neighborhood has the lowest voting stats in Norway, with 36% in local elections and 56% in national. That means I can bitch for two on national issues, and for three on local issues.

Before the next local election, Im considering trying to find the two other people Im voting for to inform them what happens when they give people like me so much power: oh, you dont like toll roads, and would like to keep cheap parking in town? Shame that, since Im going to vote to get the cars out of town. You would like lower taxes? Sorry, mate. You snooze, you lose.

As for the argument that it is better to have fewer informed voters than many uninformed; It has already been explained well in the thread that we need the masses to dilute the crazies. An other aspect to consider is the Dunning-Kruger effect. The best way to make sure the well informed voters stay at home, is to spread the sentiment that you should not vote unless you feel really confident about your opinion.

Sometimes, your vote is more efficient against something than for it. We have a lot of political parties, and it can be difficult to find the perfect match. I heard one guy suggest the following voting process: take one of each ballot. Remove the ones you really hate. Mix up the rest. Close your eyes and pick one, and put it in the envelope without looking.

I completely agree.  A friend of mine gets very upset about political issues yet he's spotty on voting.  As I tell him, "In a democracy, voting is the ONLY thing that matters.  The rest is just noise."
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Paul der Krake on October 21, 2018, 04:44:08 PM
The anemic turnout in US elections is a disgrace and should be the source of much more intense international ridicule. Yeah it could probably be improved by not holding the election on a Tuesday, automatically registering people, or not having voter suppression laws, but honestly I think these would barely make a dent. The fact is that US voters are terrible voters.

In Washington they send ballots by mail to every single registered voter, well in advance, with voter information booklets. This is all done automatically and you don't even need to pay for postage. Despite all this, more than one in three voters doesn't bother to fill out their ballot, and it's almost one in two for midterms. In Minnesota, which boasts the highest turnout in the country, it's still one in four voters who just can't be arsed.

US voters, why do you suck ass this bad?
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Kris on October 21, 2018, 05:27:58 PM
The anemic turnout in US elections is a disgrace and should be the source of much more intense international ridicule. Yeah it could probably be improved by not holding the election on a Tuesday, automatically registering people, or not having voter suppression laws, but honestly I think these would barely make a dent. The fact is that US voters are terrible voters.

In Washington they send ballots by mail to every single registered voter, well in advance, with voter information booklets. This is all done automatically and you don't even need to pay for postage. Despite all this, more than one in three voters doesn't bother to fill out their ballot, and it's almost one in two for midterms. In Minnesota, which boasts the highest turnout in the country, it's still one in four voters who just can't be arsed.

US voters, why do you suck ass this bad?


As a voter from Minnesota, Im sorry. Seriously, our country sucks ass.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: sol on October 21, 2018, 08:24:00 PM
As a regular voter, even in midterm elections, I'm just going to assume that you aren't referring to me when you tell me how much I suck ass.  Do we all suck ass in equal proportion?

OTOH, I'm not exactly feeling motivated by your friendly insults to rush out and convince my neighbors to vote, either.  The fewer of them vote, the more important my vote becomes.  If could just find some way to convince all of the people I disagree with to recycle those ballots instead of mailing them in...

As the Russians so successfully demonstrated in 2016, there is more than one way to win an election.  Yes, getting more folks to vote the way you like is good, but what's even better is getting lots of people to not vote the way you don't like.  I think much of the American political system today is targeted at the second half of that equation, because it's far more cost effective to convince people to do nothing than it is to convince them to do something.  You only need a plurality of ballots cast, after all, so convincing one bad voter to stay home is technically more beneficial than convincing one good voter to turn out.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Paul der Krake on October 21, 2018, 09:20:10 PM
I disagree. It's great that you take your civic duty seriously, but that doesn't excuse the tens of millions who do not. Even in purple states where voting matters enormously (FL, NC, OH, etc.), it hovers around 65%. There aren't 35% of voters who lead such fantastically exciting or dreadfully difficult lives that they couldn't possibly find the time to vote, so where are they?

Low turnout elections face an inherent legitimacy problem, which, ironically, leads to an even more disengaged voting base. Then it becomes a race to who can anger their voters the most to get them to show up, driving away centrists. It encourages moves to get to 50.01% instead of focusing on an inclusive long term vision. You get the buzzer beater thrill of barely edging your opponent, but that's it.

The US has an incredibly strong patriotic sentiment (sometimes wholly misguided, but that's a discussion for another day). Why isn't this translating to 90% civic engagement?
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: sol on October 21, 2018, 11:35:50 PM
It encourages moves to get to 50.01% instead of focusing on an inclusive long term vision. You get the buzzer beater thrill of barely edging your opponent, but that's it.

Technically, it drove Trump to getting 46.1% and not edging his opponent, but he still gets to play President anyway.

As for legitimacy problems, let's not pretend that's due to low turnout.  46.1%, remember?  Before that, approximately half of the country was convinced the winner was a secret Muslim from Kenya and not even a US citizen.  And when the Republican candidate (McCain) tried to push back on birthirism, he got absolutely obliterated in the election.  Republicans learned their lesson well; NEVER stray from the most vile position imaginable if you want to drive turnout in your favor!

I suspect that American patriotism doesn't translate into civic engagement because people want to belong to an awesome country, not make it an awesome country.  Why bother to actually do anything worthwhile, when you can just wave the flag and shout America, Fuck Yea (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQaH3-LK54).  Why vote (https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/18/entertainment/kanye-west-donald-trump-trnd/index.html), when you can just wear a MAGA ha (https://peopledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/kanye-west-maga-hat.jpg?crop=0px%2C0px%2C1299px%2C681.975px&resize=1200%2C630)t?

Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 22, 2018, 07:17:14 AM
Ontario Municipal elections are on now, how many of us Ontarians are voting?

I voted a couple weekends ago.  Early voting is awesome, no line, no fuss and you get home in no time at all.

It's all on-line/phone anyway, so I am going to vote tonight when I come back in from gardening.

This, I was unaware of.  How do you go about voting online?
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: Paul der Krake on October 22, 2018, 02:35:11 PM
As for legitimacy problems, let's not pretend that's due to low turnout.  46.1%, remember?  Before that, approximately half of the country was convinced the winner was a secret Muslim from Kenya and not even a US citizen.  And when the Republican candidate (McCain) tried to push back on birthirism, he got absolutely obliterated in the election.  Republicans learned their lesson well; NEVER stray from the most vile position imaginable if you want to drive turnout in your favor!
You've obviously been scarred by the last election cycle, but you need to step back take the long view here. Trump and his ilk will go away eventually. Low turnout elections absolutely have a legitimacy problem, and it's not just a US thing.

I totally agree that a decent chunk of the public is vile and dumb as rocks (how's that for friendly insult), but the solution isn't to play turnout games.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 22, 2018, 03:01:11 PM
This, I was unaware of.  How do you go about voting online?

I received a letter a while ago from my municipality.  It contained a PIN, a phone number and an email address, and the township address and hours we could go to vote there if we didn't want to do it online or by phone.  It also included all the candidate information.

I simply went online and followed the instructions and voted.  It even gave me the choice to refuse to vote.  Super easy, no chance of a spoiled ballot.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 22, 2018, 06:40:30 PM
This, I was unaware of.  How do you go about voting online?

I received a letter a while ago from my municipality.  It contained a PIN, a phone number and an email address, and the township address and hours we could go to vote there if we didn't want to do it online or by phone.  It also included all the candidate information.

I simply went online and followed the instructions and voted.  It even gave me the choice to refuse to vote.  Super easy, no chance of a spoiled ballot.

That makes a ton of sense.  As far as I'm aware it's not a thing in Toronto yet, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 22, 2018, 06:47:48 PM
This, I was unaware of.  How do you go about voting online?

I received a letter a while ago from my municipality.  It contained a PIN, a phone number and an email address, and the township address and hours we could go to vote there if we didn't want to do it online or by phone.  It also included all the candidate information.

I simply went online and followed the instructions and voted.  It even gave me the choice to refuse to vote.  Super easy, no chance of a spoiled ballot.

That makes a ton of sense.  As far as I'm aware it's not a thing in Toronto yet, unfortunately.

We aren't a big modern township, but it certainly was well arranged.  There were security measures.

Update: unofficial results: We have a new mayor (I voted for him, for environmental reasons) because our old mayor retired.  For my ward, one incumbent and one new person (I voted for her). 
Title: Re: Are you as good of a voter as you are a saver?
Post by: slackmax on November 01, 2018, 06:11:37 AM
I plan to vote, but I am not in total agreement with either party's position on the issues. So I will have to just hope that the party I vote for will not be able to implement the positions I disagree with.