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Are you pro-Trump or anti-Trump?

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Author Topic: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?  (Read 5902 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2019, 11:13:04 AM »
With so many badass Mustachians commenting on this thread already, I was disappointed that no one had mentioned or linked the below. I think I agree with most here in terms of the poll, but I didn't vote, because I think it's focusing on the wrong question.

Our Dear Leader Himself. Any time spent thinking about things beyond your control are a waste of your precious life energy. Rather, by focusing more on what we can control, we can actually expand our sphere of influence.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

I find there are certain aspects of that post that have not aged particularly well.

While I agree that there's little point worrying over things that you can't change . . . I think that the (relatively common) sentiment that politics and government is something that you can't change is completely wrong.

We live in a democracy.  A government of the people, for the people.  We control the government in many ways.  We do this by voicing our opinions, through protest, through organizations that we donate to (both with time and money), and through our votes themselves.  Without a large group of people paying attention to what their leaders are doing and bringing attention to problems (as well as the many good things - which also tend to get less press) a democracy is doomed.

So yeah, ignore things that are truly out of your circle of control.  But believe that politics is out of your circle of control at your peril.

CindyBS

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2019, 11:25:22 AM »
You know, part of the mustachian schtick is taking charge of your own life and not letting outside circumstances control you. If something you don't directly control has that much bearing on your life, maybe you should reconsider where you live or find a workaround. Personally, I took a job that pays less but offers fantastic benefits.


That is a very mean-spirited and self-centered comment.  I hope it doesn't reflect your general attitude

Please reread CindyBS and OtherJen 's posts.   They had no control over health issues, and are trying to cope with a system that seems to want to get them.  Just because you are OK doesn't mean that policy doesn't affect others.

I know they have no control over their health issues, but their two options are to complain about a system that they have very little control over, or to do something that puts them in a better position. That may mean going to a new employer, a different state, or even a different country.

I'm not defending either side politically, since neither party is concerned with anything other than keeping themselves in power. But taking control of your life means more than just having a lot of money. It means putting yourself in a position to succeed within your circumstances.

Not only does this show an extreme lack of empathy, it shows a profound ignorance of the health care/health insurance issue for people with astronomical health expenses and critically ill family members. 

Our insurance is through a job with fantastic benefits, but we still depend on the protections of the ACA.  Under the law before the ACA, we would have hit the lifetime max in less than 1 year from my son's diagnosis with no idea if he would be able to stay on our insurance once he hits 18 (because medical problem would prohibit him from being a full time student) and no protections for pre-existing conditions.

You are actually suggesting that we do nothing, not even complain when asked about the system so that healthcare companies can price gouge people at their most vulnerable and rake in billions of $$ of profits.  But then we are supposed to pick up our critically ill kid (the one that had trouble with a 20 minute care ride from so much pain) and move way from all our support system, and the job that pays he bills, the medical team that is saving his life, to a different country.  Never mind that my husband fought in 2 wars for the USA.   

Your lack of compassion is absolutely breath taking.  Are you a troll? 


skp

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2019, 02:54:36 PM »
You know, part of the mustachian schtick is taking charge of your own life and not letting outside circumstances control you. If something you don't directly control has that much bearing on your life, maybe you should reconsider where you live or find a workaround. Personally, I took a job that pays less but offers fantastic benefits.


That is a very mean-spirited and self-centered comment.  I hope it doesn't reflect your general attitude

Please reread CindyBS and OtherJen 's posts.   They had no control over health issues, and are trying to cope with a system that seems to want to get them.  Just because you are OK doesn't mean that policy doesn't affect others.

I know they have no control over their health issues, but their two options are to complain about a system that they have very little control over, or to do something that puts them in a better position. That may mean going to a new employer, a different state, or even a different country.

I'm not defending either side politically, since neither party is concerned with anything other than keeping themselves in power. But taking control of your life means more than just having a lot of money. It means putting yourself in a position to succeed within your circumstances.

Not only does this show an extreme lack of empathy, it shows a profound ignorance of the health care/health insurance issue for people with astronomical health expenses and critically ill family members. 

Our insurance is through a job with fantastic benefits, but we still depend on the protections of the ACA.  Under the law before the ACA, we would have hit the lifetime max in less than 1 year from my son's diagnosis with no idea if he would be able to stay on our insurance once he hits 18 (because medical problem would prohibit him from being a full time student) and no protections for pre-existing conditions.

You are actually suggesting that we do nothing, not even complain when asked about the system so that healthcare companies can price gouge people at their most vulnerable and rake in billions of $$ of profits.  But then we are supposed to pick up our critically ill kid (the one that had trouble with a 20 minute care ride from so much pain) and move way from all our support system, and the job that pays he bills, the medical team that is saving his life, to a different country.  Never mind that my husband fought in 2 wars for the USA.   

Your lack of compassion is absolutely breath taking.  Are you a troll?
I  am a republican (probably more liberitarian),  and I very much believe in individual responsibility like the rest of them.  I will also state that I am not a troll and get offended by people getting called trolls just because they don't tow the majority line here.  That being said I am for universal health care.   I think that if anything universal health insurance will make people more responsible rather than less. My old hairdresser a young single mom, chose not to buy health insurance.  She would have to pay for it herself and it is expensive.  So, I can't blame her as a young healthy person to opt out and  not to buy the insurance (but did buy a tanning bed for her basement).  What I do get upset about is her complaining about the lack of universal health insurance when she had an er visit for strep throat.  She could have paid the er visit with her tanning bed money.  Now theoretically with universal health insurance and the owner of a suddessful beauty shop she is going to have to pay something towards the insurance. Because correct me if I'm wrong, people in Canada making a decent living even if they are self employed  are still going to have to pay SOMETHING.     IMO it will just move the responsibility of health insurance from the employer to the individual.  And the decision making process of what gets covered from the health insurance company to the government.  I am very much against the opt outs the republicans pushed for.   I can see those people opting out expecting to be able to opt in with their preexisting condition when it suits them.  This might lack compassion (again I am not a troll) but I am still for universal health care because I think it makes people be responsible.
If



CindyBS

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2019, 05:36:40 PM »
You know, part of the mustachian schtick is taking charge of your own life and not letting outside circumstances control you. If something you don't directly control has that much bearing on your life, maybe you should reconsider where you live or find a workaround. Personally, I took a job that pays less but offers fantastic benefits.


That is a very mean-spirited and self-centered comment.  I hope it doesn't reflect your general attitude

Please reread CindyBS and OtherJen 's posts.   They had no control over health issues, and are trying to cope with a system that seems to want to get them.  Just because you are OK doesn't mean that policy doesn't affect others.

I know they have no control over their health issues, but their two options are to complain about a system that they have very little control over, or to do something that puts them in a better position. That may mean going to a new employer, a different state, or even a different country.

I'm not defending either side politically, since neither party is concerned with anything other than keeping themselves in power. But taking control of your life means more than just having a lot of money. It means putting yourself in a position to succeed within your circumstances.

Not only does this show an extreme lack of empathy, it shows a profound ignorance of the health care/health insurance issue for people with astronomical health expenses and critically ill family members. 

Our insurance is through a job with fantastic benefits, but we still depend on the protections of the ACA.  Under the law before the ACA, we would have hit the lifetime max in less than 1 year from my son's diagnosis with no idea if he would be able to stay on our insurance once he hits 18 (because medical problem would prohibit him from being a full time student) and no protections for pre-existing conditions.

You are actually suggesting that we do nothing, not even complain when asked about the system so that healthcare companies can price gouge people at their most vulnerable and rake in billions of $$ of profits.  But then we are supposed to pick up our critically ill kid (the one that had trouble with a 20 minute care ride from so much pain) and move way from all our support system, and the job that pays he bills, the medical team that is saving his life, to a different country.  Never mind that my husband fought in 2 wars for the USA.   

Your lack of compassion is absolutely breath taking.  Are you a troll?
I  am a republican (probably more liberitarian),  and I very much believe in individual responsibility like the rest of them.  I will also state that I am not a troll and get offended by people getting called trolls just because they don't tow the majority line here.  That being said I am for universal health care.   I think that if anything universal health insurance will make people more responsible rather than less. My old hairdresser a young single mom, chose not to buy health insurance.  She would have to pay for it herself and it is expensive.  So, I can't blame her as a young healthy person to opt out and  not to buy the insurance (but did buy a tanning bed for her basement).  What I do get upset about is her complaining about the lack of universal health insurance when she had an er visit for strep throat.  She could have paid the er visit with her tanning bed money.  Now theoretically with universal health insurance and the owner of a suddessful beauty shop she is going to have to pay something towards the insurance. Because correct me if I'm wrong, people in Canada making a decent living even if they are self employed  are still going to have to pay SOMETHING.     IMO it will just move the responsibility of health insurance from the employer to the individual.  And the decision making process of what gets covered from the health insurance company to the government.  I am very much against the opt outs the republicans pushed for.   I can see those people opting out expecting to be able to opt in with their preexisting condition when it suits them.  This might lack compassion (again I am not a troll) but I am still for universal health care because I think it makes people be responsible.
If

My comment is directly at Dadjokes, not other republicans or libertarians.   He (I assume he) said some comments that were really lacking in empathy.  It was bad enough that I am not sure if he is serious. 

DadJokes

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2019, 06:05:36 PM »
Yes, I am serious, and that is not a lack of empathy. I suggested acting so as to not be a victim to a shitty system.

And yes, I agree that it is a shitty system. I just have different ideas on how to fix it.

fuzzy math

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2019, 07:17:54 PM »
You know, part of the mustachian schtick is taking charge of your own life and not letting outside circumstances control you. If something you don't directly control has that much bearing on your life, maybe you should reconsider where you live or find a workaround. Personally, I took a job that pays less but offers fantastic benefits.


That is a very mean-spirited and self-centered comment.  I hope it doesn't reflect your general attitude

Please reread CindyBS and OtherJen 's posts.   They had no control over health issues, and are trying to cope with a system that seems to want to get them.  Just because you are OK doesn't mean that policy doesn't affect others.

I know they have no control over their health issues, but their two options are to complain about a system that they have very little control over, or to do something that puts them in a better position. That may mean going to a new employer, a different state, or even a different country.

I'm not defending either side politically, since neither party is concerned with anything other than keeping themselves in power. But taking control of your life means more than just having a lot of money. It means putting yourself in a position to succeed within your circumstances.

Not only does this show an extreme lack of empathy, it shows a profound ignorance of the health care/health insurance issue for people with astronomical health expenses and critically ill family members. 

Our insurance is through a job with fantastic benefits, but we still depend on the protections of the ACA.  Under the law before the ACA, we would have hit the lifetime max in less than 1 year from my son's diagnosis with no idea if he would be able to stay on our insurance once he hits 18 (because medical problem would prohibit him from being a full time student) and no protections for pre-existing conditions.

You are actually suggesting that we do nothing, not even complain when asked about the system so that healthcare companies can price gouge people at their most vulnerable and rake in billions of $$ of profits.  But then we are supposed to pick up our critically ill kid (the one that had trouble with a 20 minute care ride from so much pain) and move way from all our support system, and the job that pays he bills, the medical team that is saving his life, to a different country.  Never mind that my husband fought in 2 wars for the USA.   

Your lack of compassion is absolutely breath taking.  Are you a troll?
I  am a republican (probably more liberitarian),  and I very much believe in individual responsibility like the rest of them.  I will also state that I am not a troll and get offended by people getting called trolls just because they don't tow the majority line here.  That being said I am for universal health care.   I think that if anything universal health insurance will make people more responsible rather than less. My old hairdresser a young single mom, chose not to buy health insurance.  She would have to pay for it herself and it is expensive.  So, I can't blame her as a young healthy person to opt out and  not to buy the insurance (but did buy a tanning bed for her basement).  What I do get upset about is her complaining about the lack of universal health insurance when she had an er visit for strep throat.  She could have paid the er visit with her tanning bed money.  Now theoretically with universal health insurance and the owner of a suddessful beauty shop she is going to have to pay something towards the insurance. Because correct me if I'm wrong, people in Canada making a decent living even if they are self employed  are still going to have to pay SOMETHING.     IMO it will just move the responsibility of health insurance from the employer to the individual.  And the decision making process of what gets covered from the health insurance company to the government.  I am very much against the opt outs the republicans pushed for.   I can see those people opting out expecting to be able to opt in with their preexisting condition when it suits them.  This might lack compassion (again I am not a troll) but I am still for universal health care because I think it makes people be responsible.
If

Pretty much what every D and universal insurance advocate thinks. Nothing you said was insensitive.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2019, 03:23:26 AM »
I too supported Obama once he was elected as my parents supported candidates when there preferred candidate didn't win and that's what we all need to get back to.

Not going to bash you personally but pointing out that I whole heatedly disagree with this. I'll be the first to admit when I am wrong. I was wrong in my support of Bush Jr. and wrong in my initial lack of support for Obama. While I had hoped that I again could be wrong in my lack of support for Trump, he has only solidified that I made the right choice. I refuse to concede my own moral principles simply because someone was elected to a position of power by a minority of people. That's the great thing about living in this country and not one which practices totalitarianism.




My point was more that I supported Obama in that in hopes he did the best he can as President. It did not change my political views but i didn't go around bashing him just because .  My views are my own and I hold to them. But from a citizen in this country I want whomever is at the helm to do there best. Lets face it, and maybe this is my opinion but the president the last 45 years, maybe beyond but I can remember only as far back as Nixon I am not worried as much about as I am the Senate and the House.

As I have said before on other posts I think both sides have good and bad. This Healthcare is a disaster and as a republican I side with the Democrats on this.  I dont know where it all started but I dont claim to be an expert in the world of politics but I do believe and wish we could get the sides together. Maybe I am foolish to think thats possible or old school but so much energy is just bashing everyone that that is what is destroying this country and led by the media. To many uneducated people just following the Hollywood types and whatever news network they follow.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 03:36:00 AM by soccerluvof4 »

anisotropy

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2019, 11:01:43 AM »
Maybe I am foolish to think thats possible or old school but so much energy is just bashing everyone that that is what is destroying this country and led by the media. To many uneducated people just following the Hollywood types and whatever news network they follow.

Joe Rogan's most recent podcast #1242 with Tim Pool (journalist) talks about this. The podcast was about de-platforming online, ameliorative definitions, and some other stuffs (Russian involvement in culture war for example).

It's really long (~3 hrs), but if anyone is interested and has time this weekend, might be worthwhile to check it out.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:05:13 AM by anisotropy »

Just Joe

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2019, 11:04:56 AM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

It was an interesting perspective. No matter how bad Trump and his friends are to us - they won't be as bad as what my friend left behind. Of course anyone that doesn't fit the current conservative religious and social perspective might need to keep their heads down a little longer - and that hits close to home.

I still don't like the far right / religious bullies.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2019, 12:02:03 PM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

It was an interesting perspective. No matter how bad Trump and his friends are to us - they won't be as bad as what my friend left behind. Of course anyone that doesn't fit the current conservative religious and social perspective might need to keep their heads down a little longer - and that hits close to home.

I still don't like the far right / religious bullies.



Kinda makes sense. Thats my thing I dont like far left or Far right. The middle I personally think is where most things can get done and seemingly when there is less conflict. I just would hate to be a nation that destroys itself because we ourselves cant get along. I made the mistake the other day responding to something on Facebook which I just dont do and wont do again with a fact check and was called  delusional and whole bunch of other names by somebody I didn't even know that was responding on someone else s thread. I had a whole comeback written which felt good to write but I did not send it. For what?

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2019, 12:11:48 PM »
I've noticed a new prevalence of mean-spiritedness here as well. OtherJen, I hope you reconsider and stay!

DadJokes, it's great that you believe that your life is under your control. Those of us who are, say, female, or non-white, or non-Christian are watching our freedoms be systematically eroded.  (Say, the freedom to make our own damn health-care decisions. Or the freedom to not be sexually assaulted if we go out in public. Or the freedom to drive a car and not be arrested. Or -- shit, how about the freedom to be paid the same amount as the guy in the next office doing the same work!) But hey -- your index funds are going up! Cool!

What does race, gender, or religion have to do with it? I'm Hispanic and atheist...

I think you're letting journalists with an agenda put thoughts in your head instead of thinking for yourself.

Wow, that is quite insulting.

For instance gender: I have been in jobs where the employer is up-front about paying guys with less experience and less education (and who are no more productive then I am) more then they'd pay me. As has my mother. And her mother. We may (or may not) have the ability to go find another job, but the current administration is appointing judges and cabinet members who work to allow this to continue, rather than curtail it. Betsy DuVos is hamstringing title 9 laws that encourage universities to take sexual harassment and on-campus rape seriously. The most recent appointee to the Supreme Court (which is the final arbitrar of what's legal in the US) almost certainly date raped people at parties when he was in high school, and has experienced no consequences for doing so. (I grew up in that time/place and know people who were at Georgetown Prep parties, so this is based on personal experience from me and friends, not from, as you so delicately put it, "journalists with an agenda.") I am not viewed as an equal citizen by this administration, whether I believe I am or not, and other people who are inclined to hold that view are empowered by the fact that it's clearly held at the highest level.

Also, I'm with the other Jens -- this conversation is a lovely view of what the Pro-Trumpians look like (not everyone, but a critical mass, for sure), and I think I'll step out now.

(Edited for grammer)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 01:18:43 PM by jeninco »

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2019, 01:49:51 PM »
When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

I know of at least one example off the top of my head where you can draw a direct line between Trump and a government feeling freer to kill their own people for political reasons. https://www.npr.org/2018/11/02/663203549/nigerian-army-cites-trump-in-its-defense-of-killing-protesters

His friendliness toward Saudi Arabia despite the murder of Jamal Khashoggi is another example.

Your friend isn't citing a reason, but rather a rationalization based on partial facts.

I didn't want to get involved in this thread, but that kind of misinformation is dangerous. I AM trying to read this as an opportunity to better understand people I disagree with, not an opportunity for an argument, so don't expect me to participate in one.

LennStar

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2019, 02:35:48 PM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

That is what happened in North Korea. Not that the "extremely hostile and now extremely friendly" attitude change is new, mind you. That is normal modus operandi for NK.
But I am quite sure that Kim was surprised how ahem... strongheaded Trump is and got less than what he wanted.

But that dictators stop killing people - no. Why should they?
The US has never attacked any country because of a dictator killing his citizens. It is always oil, money, fear of "communists" or general superiority doctrine.
Saddam Hussein killed people for decades. Why did the US booted him at the time it did with a laughable excuse? hint: Iraq has a lot of oil and one year before Saddam changed his sales from dollar-based to Euro.
Many announced to follow him at that time. Nobody did. 

Tass

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2019, 04:07:05 PM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

That is what happened in North Korea. Not that the "extremely hostile and now extremely friendly" attitude change is new, mind you. That is normal modus operandi for NK.
But I am quite sure that Kim was surprised how ahem... strongheaded Trump is and got less than what he wanted.

And despite this, has there been any measurable progress? Maybe we will see some after the next summit, but so far the promises have been empty.

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2019, 04:43:36 PM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

Several Iranians and Iraqis have also told me they are glad Trump was elected. Their reasoning is because the way they are treated by and in the US has not changed but now more Americans are aware of it and talking about it. They are very quick to jump in and point out that these are not new policies and that Obama's administration enforced them. In fact, it has amused me how quickly they highlight that this is not new, that Obama did it also. These were recent immigrants, green card holders and people living in Europe who could not visit the US because of their family background.

Always interesting to hear how differently people see the same situation.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2019, 05:10:54 PM »
I too supported Obama once he was elected as my parents supported candidates when there preferred candidate didn't win and that's what we all need to get back to.

Not going to bash you personally but pointing out that I whole heatedly disagree with this. I'll be the first to admit when I am wrong. I was wrong in my support of Bush Jr. and wrong in my initial lack of support for Obama. While I had hoped that I again could be wrong in my lack of support for Trump, he has only solidified that I made the right choice. I refuse to concede my own moral principles simply because someone was elected to a position of power by a minority of people. That's the great thing about living in this country and not one which practices totalitarianism.




My point was more that I supported Obama in that in hopes he did the best he can as President. It did not change my political views but i didn't go around bashing him just because .  My views are my own and I hold to them. But from a citizen in this country I want whomever is at the helm to do there best. Lets face it, and maybe this is my opinion but the president the last 45 years, maybe beyond but I can remember only as far back as Nixon I am not worried as much about as I am the Senate and the House.

As I have said before on other posts I think both sides have good and bad. This Healthcare is a disaster and as a republican I side with the Democrats on this.  I dont know where it all started but I dont claim to be an expert in the world of politics but I do believe and wish we could get the sides together. Maybe I am foolish to think thats possible or old school but so much energy is just bashing everyone that that is what is destroying this country and led by the media. To many uneducated people just following the Hollywood types and whatever news network they follow.

Also not going to bash you, because I understand what you're saying, & can honestly say that I've never felt as personally conflicted as I have since Trump was elected. I also didn't agree with much of Bush's policies or decisions, but as a citizen, I wanted him to be successful in "running the country." However, the tremendous disparity between how Trump is "running the country" (I can barely even say that, given what i view as his enormous lack of success in doing so), and how I'd want it done means that I can't just sit back & watch. I'm raising minority children in this country. I am a woman who wants to have full decision making rights for her body. I firmly believe in fair & equal rights for everyone in this country, & protecting the environment. If a president wasn't doing an amazing job of ADVANCING any of those things, well, I'd be sad & disappointed, & would get involved as best I could to vote for a president that would actively advance those causes. However, far from advancing any of those things, this president is making it more difficult to be a person of color, a woman, etc, and I can't sit back & be supportive.

My husband's family is middle eastern, & I can guarantee they aren't sitting around in Tehran, chuckling over the every day potential that something will have gone totally awry in the US & we've decided to change our policies, or our president has decided to call out their ruler on Twitter & start a war.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 08:15:17 PM by MaybeBabyMustache »

Johnez

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2019, 05:39:57 PM »
Personally, I'm not worried too much.  I'm half hispanic, but my parents were both born here thankfully.  I say thankfully, because my SO isn't so lucky.  Her mom was born in Puerto Rico, her dad in Mexico.  Both legal citizens currently.  However, Trump has shown a penchant for flipping the table on virtually everything.  There are records "issues" on the Puerto Rican side that my MIL has been fretting about, FIL got his citizenship through marriage.  So in a nightmare scenario, what happens if MIL can't prove US citizenship due to the Puerto Rican record issue so therefore is denied citizenship, so therefore FIL is now not a citizen?  What happens if Trumpians get their wish and are able to deny American born babies citizenship due to parents legal status?  This is something that we're not up all night worrying about, but the fact that we are actually THINKING about it blows my mind.  If my SO happens to lose her citizenship, what do I do?  And our kids???  I honestly think we're not going to go in that direction, however it always feels calm in the pot when the temp rises as slow as it does.  I sometimes wonder if the game plan is "larger" than the presidency, if there are bigger power plays going on that we here, the commoners, are simply unaware of. 

To answer the question, very much anti Trump.  He's destroying American values by the fist full.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 05:43:24 PM by Johnez »

Leisured

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2019, 11:14:14 PM »
An Australian perspective here. Trump seems to be a lot more talk than action. He has cut taxes, leaving the next administration to pay down the resulting debt. He could have built the wall in his first two years, when the Republicans controlled Congress, but he waited until the mid term elections, when Democrats, perhaps predictably, won control of Congress. He can now say that he wanted to build the Wall, but Congress will not let him. Perhaps he never had any intention of building the Wall; it was all theatre for his rallies.

His preference seems isolationist, hence withdrawals from international agreements and from overseas wars.

I assume he will lose the next election, perhaps to his relief.

Bateaux

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2019, 12:44:08 AM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

It was an interesting perspective. No matter how bad Trump and his friends are to us - they won't be as bad as what my friend left behind. Of course anyone that doesn't fit the current conservative religious and social perspective might need to keep their heads down a little longer - and that hits close to home.

I still don't like the far right / religious bullies.



Kinda makes sense. Thats my thing I dont like far left or Far right. The middle I personally think is where most things can get done and seemingly when there is less conflict. I just would hate to be a nation that destroys itself because we ourselves cant get along. I made the mistake the other day responding to something on Facebook which I just dont do and wont do again with a fact check and was called  delusional and whole bunch of other names by somebody I didn't even know that was responding on someone else s thread. I had a whole comeback written which felt good to write but I did not send it. For what?

You're respectful of the office, we all should be.   We don't want to lose you. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:51:31 AM by Bateaux »

LennStar

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2019, 01:56:02 AM »
An Australian perspective here. Trump seems to be a lot more talk than action. He has cut taxes, leaving the next administration to pay down the resulting debt. He could have built the wall in his first two years, when the Republicans controlled Congress, but he waited until the mid term elections, when Democrats, perhaps predictably, won control of Congress. He can now say that he wanted to build the Wall, but Congress will not let him. Perhaps he never had any intention of building the Wall; it was all theatre for his rallies.

His preference seems isolationist, hence withdrawals from international agreements and from overseas wars.

I assume he will lose the next election, perhaps to his relief.

I don't think Trump personally wanted to build the wall. It would made it harder to hire cheap personal for his hotels after all.

It was just an election comedy. I mean: build something that costs billions and let another country pay for it? Really? Even Trump must have realized that this is... unlikely to happen.
But of course it is a great scapegoat to tweet about daily.

And yes, I also don't think he really believed he would win the presidency, or wanted it. It was just for his ego - as everything else he does is.

jojoguy

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2019, 04:32:39 AM »
Neither and/or abstain. Politicians are terrible and are psychopaths or sociopaths. Just look at the results of both parties. Nothing truly gets done and all they do is spend spend spend. Supporting a political party is an absolute waste of time, and I`m not going to argue about it to anybody. Heard every argument before. Been there done that.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 04:37:04 AM by jojoguy »

MasterStache

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2019, 06:47:02 AM »
I too supported Obama once he was elected as my parents supported candidates when there preferred candidate didn't win and that's what we all need to get back to.

Not going to bash you personally but pointing out that I whole heatedly disagree with this. I'll be the first to admit when I am wrong. I was wrong in my support of Bush Jr. and wrong in my initial lack of support for Obama. While I had hoped that I again could be wrong in my lack of support for Trump, he has only solidified that I made the right choice. I refuse to concede my own moral principles simply because someone was elected to a position of power by a minority of people. That's the great thing about living in this country and not one which practices totalitarianism.




My point was more that I supported Obama in that in hopes he did the best he can as President. It did not change my political views but i didn't go around bashing him just because .  My views are my own and I hold to them. But from a citizen in this country I want whomever is at the helm to do there best. Lets face it, and maybe this is my opinion but the president the last 45 years, maybe beyond but I can remember only as far back as Nixon I am not worried as much about as I am the Senate and the House.

As I have said before on other posts I think both sides have good and bad. This Healthcare is a disaster and as a republican I side with the Democrats on this.  I dont know where it all started but I dont claim to be an expert in the world of politics but I do believe and wish we could get the sides together. Maybe I am foolish to think thats possible or old school but so much energy is just bashing everyone that that is what is destroying this country and led by the media. To many uneducated people just following the Hollywood types and whatever news network they follow.

Also not going to bash you, because I understand what you're saying, & can honestly say that I've never felt as personally conflicted as I have since Trump was elected. I also didn't agree with much of Bush's policies or decisions, but as a citizen, I wanted him to be successful in "running the country." However, the tremendous disparity between how Trump is "running the country" (I can barely even say that, given what i view as his enormous lack of success in doing so), and how I'd want it done means that I can't just sit back & watch. I'm raising minority children in this country. I am a woman who wants to have full decision making rights for her body. I firmly believe in fair & equal rights for everyone in this country, & protecting the environment. If a president wasn't doing an amazing job of ADVANCING any of those things, well, I'd be sad & disappointed, & would get involved as best I could to vote for a president that would actively advance those causes. However, far from advancing any of those things, this president is making it more difficult to be a person of color, a woman, etc, and I can't sit back & be supportive.

My husband's family is middle eastern, & I can guarantee they aren't sitting around in Tehran, chuckling over the every day potential that something will have gone totally awry in the US & we've decided to change our policies, or our president has decided to call out their ruler on Twitter & start a war.

+1 Well said

It's a pretty sad time when we still have presidential candidates (and actual Presidents) who don't trust science. And far from advancing social issues, Trump is actually reversing course on them. What the hell am I supposed to support? His views and policies are in direct contradiction to what I actually support. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 06:56:42 AM by MasterStache »

Kris

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2019, 07:51:37 AM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

It was an interesting perspective. No matter how bad Trump and his friends are to us - they won't be as bad as what my friend left behind. Of course anyone that doesn't fit the current conservative religious and social perspective might need to keep their heads down a little longer - and that hits close to home.

I still don't like the far right / religious bullies.



Kinda makes sense. Thats my thing I dont like far left or Far right. The middle I personally think is where most things can get done and seemingly when there is less conflict. I just would hate to be a nation that destroys itself because we ourselves cant get along. I made the mistake the other day responding to something on Facebook which I just dont do and wont do again with a fact check and was called  delusional and whole bunch of other names by somebody I didn't even know that was responding on someone else s thread. I had a whole comeback written which felt good to write but I did not send it. For what?

You're respectful of the office, we all should be.

Starting with the president himself. Unfortunately, this one craps all over it, on a near-daily basis.

Omy

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2019, 06:47:27 AM »
So for those of you who voted "Neither", do you mind sharing if you didn't vote at all, voted for Trump and regret it, voted for Trump and don't regret it, or if there was some other reason you made that choice?

talltexan

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2019, 08:07:00 AM »
A Middle Eastern friend pointed out that he loves that America picked Trump. Makes the middle eastern dictators nervous b/c Trump talks big and is impulsive. Not predictable like people who follow the rule book. When dictators are scared my friend tells me - they stop killing their own people for political reasons b/c they don't know if the USA might react. When we have a predictable president with a rule book - the American threat is empty. The dictators can resume being bullies.

It was an interesting perspective. No matter how bad Trump and his friends are to us - they won't be as bad as what my friend left behind. Of course anyone that doesn't fit the current conservative religious and social perspective might need to keep their heads down a little longer - and that hits close to home.

I still don't like the far right / religious bullies.

I'll be sure to let Prince MBS know. He must not have realized this when he targetted Jamal Khashoggi so blatantly and openly.

mm1970

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2019, 10:34:40 AM »
You know, part of the mustachian schtick is taking charge of your own life and not letting outside circumstances control you. If something you don't directly control has that much bearing on your life, maybe you should reconsider where you live or find a workaround. Personally, I took a job that pays less but offers fantastic benefits.

I always find remarks like this to smack of privileged smugness and also quite a lack of imagination. As though the person speaking believes that he is a member of some sort of small minority that uniquely actually tries to find solutions to their problems, whereas the rest of the population just freezes and drops to the ground like a helpless mass of goo. And also as though the person speaking is literally unable to fathom that the decisions of someone else in a position of power could someday negatively impact the speaker's life in a way that they would not be able to simply 'find a workaround' for.

Yes, mustachianism is about taking responsibility for one's own life. But I hope it's not also about using the philosophy as an excuse not to give a damn about other people.

The more time I spend here, the more I wonder about your latter statement. I'm all for responsibility and have gleaned a lot from this site. But the attitude exemplified by DadJokes is increasingly prevalent. I think it's time to spend my mental energy elsewhere.
I have found myself visiting less and less for exactly that reason.  Life's too short to interact with a-holes.

On the plus side, I've gotten lots more crocheting and walking done.

meghan88

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2019, 11:53:22 AM »
I find that this post is very well-put and hard to dispute:

https://www.facebook.com/terry.casey1/posts/10161693482585093

Here's the text in full:
-------------------------------------------
Someone on Quora asked "Why do some British people not like Donald Trump?" Nate White, an articulate and witty writer from England wrote this magnificent response.

A few things spring to mind.

Trump lacks certain qualities which the British traditionally esteem.

For instance, he has no class, no charm, no coolness, no credibility, no compassion, no wit, no warmth, no wisdom, no subtlety, no sensitivity, no self-awareness, no humility, no honour and no grace - all qualities, funnily enough, with which his predecessor Mr. Obama was generously blessed.

So for us, the stark contrast does rather throw Trump’s limitations into embarrassingly sharp relief.

Plus, we like a laugh. And while Trump may be laughable, he has never once said anything wry, witty or even faintly amusing - not once, ever.

I don’t say that rhetorically, I mean it quite literally: not once, not ever. And that fact is particularly disturbing to the British sensibility - for us, to lack humour is almost inhuman.

But with Trump, it’s a fact. He doesn’t even seem to understand what a joke is - his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty.

Trump is a troll. And like all trolls, he is never funny and he never laughs; he only crows or jeers.

And scarily, he doesn’t just talk in crude, witless insults - he actually thinks in them. His mind is a simple bot-like algorithm of petty prejudices and knee-jerk nastiness.

There is never any under-layer of irony, complexity, nuance or depth. It’s all surface.

Some Americans might see this as refreshingly upfront.

Well, we don’t. We see it as having no inner world, no soul.

And in Britain we traditionally side with David, not Goliath. All our heroes are plucky underdogs: Robin Hood, Dick Whittington, Oliver Twist.

Trump is neither plucky, nor an underdog. He is the exact opposite of that.

He’s not even a spoiled rich-boy, or a greedy fat-cat.

He’s more a fat white slug. A Jabba the Hutt of privilege.

And worse, he is that most unforgivable of all things to the British: a bully.

That is, except when he is among bullies; then he suddenly transforms into a snivelling sidekick instead.

There are unspoken rules to this stuff - the Queensberry rules of basic decency - and he breaks them all. He punches downwards - which a gentleman should, would, could never do - and every blow he aims is below the belt. He particularly likes to kick the vulnerable or voiceless - and he kicks them when they are down.

So the fact that a significant minority - perhaps a third - of Americans look at what he does, listen to what he says, and then think 'Yeah, he seems like my kind of guy’ is a matter of some confusion and no little distress to British people, given that:

Americans are supposed to be nicer than us, and mostly are.
You don't need a particularly keen eye for detail to spot a few flaws in the man.
This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty bloody hard to miss.

After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss. He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of shit. His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum.

God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid.

He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart.

In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws - he would make a Trump.

And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumpfuls of hair and scream in anguish:

'My God… what… have… I… created?

If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set.

DadJokes

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2019, 12:54:55 PM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

LennStar

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2019, 01:41:15 PM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

As far as I am concerned they could have run a literal straw man and won.

Quote
A Jabba the Hutt of privilege.
That guy had me at this (from now on I will always see Jabbas face in Trump pictures), but a "Shakespeare of shit" isn't bad either.

Dabnasty

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2019, 01:48:58 PM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

I think it was another thread where ranked choice voting for congress was mentioned recently, but If we could implement a system like that in the primaries it would take care of such nonsense. The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

DadJokes

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2019, 01:54:04 PM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

I think it was another thread where ranked choice voting for congress was mentioned recently, but If we could implement a system like that in the primaries it would take care of such nonsense. The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

I think another issue is that the primaries are all held on different days. Once a candidate starts to get momentum, people jump ship on their preferred choice. If all 50 states had their primary/caucus at the same time, candidates wouldn't be able to ride momentum. Maybe after that, if no candidate got 50%, they could do a run-off between the top two.

However, Trump may still have won, because people are idiots.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2019, 02:03:58 PM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

I think it was another thread where ranked choice voting for congress was mentioned recently, but If we could implement a system like that in the primaries it would take care of such nonsense. The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

I think another issue is that the primaries are all held on different days. Once a candidate starts to get momentum, people jump ship on their preferred choice. If all 50 states had their primary/caucus at the same time, candidates wouldn't be able to ride momentum. Maybe after that, if no candidate got 50%, they could do a run-off between the top two.

However, Trump may still have won, because people are idiots.

Both of these ideas - ranked choice voting and simultaneous national primaries - are excellent. Where do we sign up?

Nick_Miller

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2019, 06:39:25 PM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

I think it was another thread where ranked choice voting for congress was mentioned recently, but If we could implement a system like that in the primaries it would take care of such nonsense. The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

I think we are forgetting the delegate totals.

Trump: 1,543
Ted Freakin' Cruz: 559
Marco Rubio: 165
John Kasich: 161

Are you saying Cruz was the 'rational' alternative? Who else even had a chance?

Dabnasty

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2019, 06:54:22 AM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

I think it was another thread where ranked choice voting for congress was mentioned recently, but If we could implement a system like that in the primaries it would take care of such nonsense. The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

I think we are forgetting the delegate totals.

Trump: 1,543
Ted Freakin' Cruz: 559
Marco Rubio: 165
John Kasich: 161

Are you saying Cruz was the 'rational' alternative? Who else even had a chance?

Popular vote wasn't quite so skewed:

Trump: 14,015,993
Ted Cruz: 7,822,100
Marco Rubio: 3,515,576
John Kasich: 4,290,448

I don't remember the exact series of events but part of this is due to other candidates dropping out as it became clear they were falling behind. Dadjokes's suggestion of holding the primaries all at once may have helped too. Certainly I can't say that it would have prevented a Trump nomination but it's hard to say how the primaries would have progressed if voters didn't feel like a vote for their truly preferred candidate was wasted.

And no Ted Cruz was not a rational choice but by the time it came down to Trump and Cruz, well, maybe he was? I was thinking about Ted as I wrote the first post but it seemed simpler to just put him in the "rational" group :)

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2019, 07:11:46 AM »
That is pretty spot on. He was an awful human being before going into politics, but he seems to have only become less likable to me. I would like to think that the Democrats could have ran nearly anyone except Hillary and would have been more likely to win, but I still have no idea how so many voted for Trump during the primaries.

I think it was another thread where ranked choice voting for congress was mentioned recently, but If we could implement a system like that in the primaries it would take care of such nonsense. The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

I think we are forgetting the delegate totals.

Trump: 1,543
Ted Freakin' Cruz: 559
Marco Rubio: 165
John Kasich: 161

Are you saying Cruz was the 'rational' alternative? Who else even had a chance?

Popular vote wasn't quite so skewed:

Trump: 14,015,993
Ted Cruz: 7,822,100
Marco Rubio: 3,515,576
John Kasich: 4,290,448

I don't remember the exact series of events but part of this is due to other candidates dropping out as it became clear they were falling behind. Dadjokes's suggestion of holding the primaries all at once may have helped too. Certainly I can't say that it would have prevented a Trump nomination but it's hard to say how the primaries would have progressed if voters didn't feel like a vote for their truly preferred candidate was wasted.

And no Ted Cruz was not a rational choice but by the time it came down to Trump and Cruz, well, maybe he was? I was thinking about Ted as I wrote the first post but it seemed simpler to just put him in the "rational" group :)

Ranked choice voting would have been the clearest way to avoid a Trump nomination, because I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of voters who voted for Rubio, Kasich, and Carson would have ranked Trump last. Probably the same for many, if not most, Cruz voters. I definitely believe that Trump was able to ride a wave of momentum as the primaries wore on, but given that he was the starkest choice from the rest of the field, it wouldn't surprise me if he had emerged a winner even if simultaneous primaries were held. I just find it ridiculous that early-primary states like Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada have such an out-sized influence on the electoral process.

Also: Cruz would have been a terrible president, but probably not the worst of all time. I honestly believe that Trump will be remember by historians as literally the worst president in American history.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2019, 07:25:27 AM »
I think having to look at a President Ted Cruz's perma-sneer and having to listen to his nauseatingly pious diatribes would have driven me to recreational drug use by now.


MasterStache

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2019, 07:33:13 AM »
I honestly believe that Trump will be remember by historians as literally the worst president in American history.

He already is

libertarian4321

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2019, 07:56:02 AM »
I chose "neither" because I didn't support Trump or the other horrible candidate. 

That said, I hope the Dems will pick a decent, moderate candidate who can get win and get Trump out of office.  But I suspect the Dems will try to "out Trump Trump" and pick a strident extremist, and likely fail.

I don't like Trump's governance style, but on the issues, I agree with some and disagree with others.  Pretty much as I've felt about the last few Presidents of both parties.


MrOnyx

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2019, 08:39:08 AM »
But I suspect the Dems will try to "out Trump Trump" and pick a strident extremist, and likely fail.

If this genuinely starts a game of 'which side can elect the biggest moron'*, then I think we're all doomed.

*I'm defining 'moron' here as someone who lacks tact, and belongs at the far extreme of their respective political leaning, possibly with a spurious past of sexism, racism and/or other -isms, I'm not meaning to begin a flame war with Trump supporters.

CindyBS

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2019, 08:44:38 AM »
What are the policies that enable and advance early retirement?  And how Trump is performing on those policies?

For example, it is probably good for early retirees if affordable health care can be de-coupled from employment. What has Trump done to advance this cause? 

If you want to retire early, then you'd also want to reduce the volatility and scale of future health care costs.  Which party is fighting against lifetime caps for health insurance?  Which is fighting to protect people with preexisting conditions?  On the health care issue, seems clear that it is in the self-interest of Mustachians to vote for Democrats.

Besides healthcare, what else will affect early retirement?  Certainly the tax treatment of investment income (since we'll be living on investment income in early retirement).  I'm not sure which party will be better on this.  Open to thoughts on that one.

Besides tax policy and health care policy, there are other important policy decisions... but those are the two that jump out at me right away, and it's difficult for me to understand why any Mustchian feels more confident about the prospect of a multi-decade retirement when Trump (or any current Republican) is running the show.

Happy to be wrong on this, and my mind can be changed...

I would add to your list impacts caused by climate change.  For people in fire/hurricane/flood prone areas or even the coasts with rising sea level (Heck Miami is already regularly flooding several dozen days per year), there can be a huge financial impact in suddenly having your house be worthless, needing to relocate at the same time everyone else from your area is, having a water bill cost thousands per year or catastrophically expensive homeowners insurance. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2019, 08:50:23 AM »
belongs at the far extreme of their respective political leaning

Why do you believe that Trump lies at an extreme of Republican political leaning?

talltexan

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2019, 09:18:01 AM »
What are the policies that enable and advance early retirement?  And how Trump is performing on those policies?

For example, it is probably good for early retirees if affordable health care can be de-coupled from employment. What has Trump done to advance this cause? 

If you want to retire early, then you'd also want to reduce the volatility and scale of future health care costs.  Which party is fighting against lifetime caps for health insurance?  Which is fighting to protect people with preexisting conditions?  On the health care issue, seems clear that it is in the self-interest of Mustachians to vote for Democrats.

Besides healthcare, what else will affect early retirement?  Certainly the tax treatment of investment income (since we'll be living on investment income in early retirement).  I'm not sure which party will be better on this.  Open to thoughts on that one.

Besides tax policy and health care policy, there are other important policy decisions... but those are the two that jump out at me right away, and it's difficult for me to understand why any Mustchian feels more confident about the prospect of a multi-decade retirement when Trump (or any current Republican) is running the show.

Happy to be wrong on this, and my mind can be changed...

I think this is good analysis. We should also consider the Tax Cut/Jobs Act, and how favorably it treated rental real estate.

sherr

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2019, 09:26:54 AM »
Besides healthcare, what else will affect early retirement?  Certainly the tax treatment of investment income (since we'll be living on investment income in early retirement).  I'm not sure which party will be better on this.  Open to thoughts on that one.

Neither side will touch Capital Gains taxes in a meaningful way. However Republicans have been openly craving to slash "reform" Social Security benefits for many years.

sherr

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2019, 09:30:19 AM »
The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

Then you should stay up at night because Trump has a 90% approval rating within the Republican party. The base loves him. And it is precisely because of that love that the Republicans in congress have been completely unwilling to cross him in any meaningful way; they know they would not survive the next primary if they did.

DadJokes

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2019, 09:33:04 AM »
Besides healthcare, what else will affect early retirement?  Certainly the tax treatment of investment income (since we'll be living on investment income in early retirement).  I'm not sure which party will be better on this.  Open to thoughts on that one.

Neither side will touch Capital Gains taxes in a meaningful way. However Republicans have been openly craving to slash "reform" Social Security benefits for many years.

It sure would be nice to stop having to pay into it when I can get much better gains investing that money instead.

It'll never happen though. Bush ran on that issue alone in his second term, and it was completely shot down.

MasterStache

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2019, 09:39:58 AM »
What are the policies that enable and advance early retirement?  And how Trump is performing on those policies?

For example, it is probably good for early retirees if affordable health care can be de-coupled from employment. What has Trump done to advance this cause? 

If you want to retire early, then you'd also want to reduce the volatility and scale of future health care costs.  Which party is fighting against lifetime caps for health insurance?  Which is fighting to protect people with preexisting conditions?  On the health care issue, seems clear that it is in the self-interest of Mustachians to vote for Democrats.

Besides healthcare, what else will affect early retirement?  Certainly the tax treatment of investment income (since we'll be living on investment income in early retirement).  I'm not sure which party will be better on this.  Open to thoughts on that one.

Besides tax policy and health care policy, there are other important policy decisions... but those are the two that jump out at me right away, and it's difficult for me to understand why any Mustchian feels more confident about the prospect of a multi-decade retirement when Trump (or any current Republican) is running the show.

Happy to be wrong on this, and my mind can be changed...

I would add to your list impacts caused by climate change.  For people in fire/hurricane/flood prone areas or even the coasts with rising sea level (Heck Miami is already regularly flooding several dozen days per year), there can be a huge financial impact in suddenly having your house be worthless, needing to relocate at the same time everyone else from your area is, having a water bill cost thousands per year or catastrophically expensive homeowners insurance.

It doesn't just affect those living next to the coast. I've seen my insurance bills increase significantly after very bad years in terms of hurricanes, fires, floods etc. When insurance companies see an influx of claims, they raise everyone's rates to compensate. I was reading yesterday, while researching organic standards for food, about how Trump rolled back a bunch of regulations surrounding the organic label. Just makes it that much more difficult for local sustainable farmers to keep their head above water. Factory farms can literally use the "organic label" at will.   

Dabnasty

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2019, 09:42:38 AM »
The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

Then you should stay up at night because Trump has a 90% approval rating within the Republican party. The base loves him. And it is precisely because of that love that the Republicans in congress have been completely unwilling to cross him in any meaningful way; they know they would not survive the next primary if they did.

That's a disheartening statistic but I don't think that's how those same people felt during the primaries. Now that he is the (R)president and they've gotten the supreme court justices they wanted along with some other policy changes it's not hard for Republicans to say they approve. "Approval" doesn't mean he's their #1 choice and any other Republican in office would likely be getting the same level of approval.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2019, 09:54:10 AM »
The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

Then you should stay up at night because Trump has a 90% approval rating within the Republican party. The base loves him. And it is precisely because of that love that the Republicans in congress have been completely unwilling to cross him in any meaningful way; they know they would not survive the next primary if they did.

That's a disheartening statistic but I don't think that's how those same people felt during the primaries. Now that he is the (R)president and they've gotten the supreme court justices they wanted along with some other policy changes it's not hard for Republicans to say they approve. "Approval" doesn't mean he's their #1 choice and any other Republican in office would likely be getting the same level of approval.

I think you're forgetting that Trump won the popular vote in the primaries by a landslide over all other candidates.  It's a mistake to assume that he is some sort of fringe politician.  He was elected by mainstream Republicans and continues to have the support of mainstream Republicans.  His policies are the same policies that the Republican party has been pushing for as long as I've been alive.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2019, 10:10:56 AM »
The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

Then you should stay up at night because Trump has a 90% approval rating within the Republican party. The base loves him. And it is precisely because of that love that the Republicans in congress have been completely unwilling to cross him in any meaningful way; they know they would not survive the next primary if they did.

That's a disheartening statistic but I don't think that's how those same people felt during the primaries. Now that he is the (R)president and they've gotten the supreme court justices they wanted along with some other policy changes it's not hard for Republicans to say they approve. "Approval" doesn't mean he's their #1 choice and any other Republican in office would likely be getting the same level of approval.

I think you're forgetting that Trump won the popular vote in the primaries by a landslide over all other candidates.  It's a mistake to assume that he is some sort of fringe politician.  He was elected by mainstream Republicans and continues to have the support of mainstream Republicans.  His policies are the same policies that the Republican party has been pushing for as long as I've been alive.

You're joking, right? Trump got a smaller share of the primary votes than any Republican presidential nominee since the modern primary system began. How is that a "landslide"?

OtherJen

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Re: Are Mustachians pro-Trump or anti-Trump?
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2019, 10:11:29 AM »
The votes got split up as rational/irrational. The rational votes were shared by the rational candidates and Trump got all the irrational votes to himself. At least that's the explanation that lets me sleep at night.

Then you should stay up at night because Trump has a 90% approval rating within the Republican party. The base loves him. And it is precisely because of that love that the Republicans in congress have been completely unwilling to cross him in any meaningful way; they know they would not survive the next primary if they did.

That's a disheartening statistic but I don't think that's how those same people felt during the primaries. Now that he is the (R)president and they've gotten the supreme court justices they wanted along with some other policy changes it's not hard for Republicans to say they approve. "Approval" doesn't mean he's their #1 choice and any other Republican in office would likely be getting the same level of approval.

It's a mistake to assume that he is some sort of fringe politician.  He was elected by mainstream Republicans and continues to have the support of mainstream Republicans.  His policies are the same policies that the Republican party has been pushing for as long as I've been alive.

Yes. During the 2016 primaries, my parents expressed disbelief that Trump had any chance of advancing to the general election. My response was basically, "what version of the USA have you been living in? I'm 38 and he's the culmination of the GOP/Religious Right/Moral Majority policies as far back as I can remember." This is why white evangelical christians love him so much. Politically, he's EXACTLY what they've wanted for decades.