Anxiety diagnosis and school

[Just Joe]

Does anyone have school aged children that simply lock up or get depressed when dealing with school topics?

We're trying home schooling b/c it was a struggle to get our child to school in the first place. Still a struggle to get the academic work done even home schooling.

Despite enrolling in a good state program we have accomplished nothing in six weeks. The topic simply locks our child up. Child turns sullen, depressed, combative.

Yes we are early on in counseling.

Help!

[ysette9]

No experience with this, but have you had your kid evaluated for learning disabilities such as ADHD or dyslexia? Maybe there is an underlying root cause of the anxiety that could be addressed. I presume this will come up during counseling?

[six-car-habit]

 All topics, or one topic ?

 Thinking back, when i got sullen, or combative, it was because i didn't really understand the material, and the lessons were moving beyond what i already didn't have mastery over.

 When a person is home-scholled, who is there to commisurate with about not liking the subject ?  " I don't understand factorials, why do we need to learn civics, etc." . In a class full of other students, usually you can find someone to complain about the subject with ....

 Are you saying it was a struggle to physically get them to public school - as in parents work schedules, distance from home -or- they whined and complained about attending and dragged their feet getting ready in the morning ?

[SunnyDays]

What age are you talking about?  What is their school  history, both academically and behaviourally?

[Just Joe]

Young teen. 13.

The morning wake ups turned into a hour or more of trying to wake child up. Then combative, argumentative, shouting about hating life, hating school, and on a really bad morning add in cussing and screaming. In their darkest moments they've revealed considering suicide.

Thank goodness we don't live in multifamily housing. The police would have gotten involved. Note that these are the child's behavior, not our's.

DW and I are "just get it done" types. Just get up, just get on the school bus (or we'll do the school run in the family car), just get through the day, we can help with any subjects not well understood. We are well educated, have good jobs, took a long winding road to success. We are fairly dependent on efficiency to get everything done on time. We're both happy, introverted people who enjoy the company of friends and family as long as it isn't too often. ;) We very much enjoy the company of our children.

For a while this behavior looked like stubbornness. Then like defiance. Then depression and anxiety. So we took school out of the equation.

Result: great child, great behavior, great relationship. Begged for home schooling.

Found a good program. Collected materials. Tried to start. All the problems returned. We made .001% progress towards the year's teaching plan.

Meanwhile child is seeing a counselor. We're about three appointments into it and child is responding well. Much happier.

Some of that success is because due to other responsibilities - one of us is not available in the evenings and we have stopped trying to home school for another week or so.

We are considering home schooling but in our own way with our own DIY teaching plan. DW and I are considering a variety of topics mostly non-academic for this school year.

We'll focus on learning to cook, fitness, journal writing, maybe some shop topics like carpentry/automotive mechanics/bicycle repair/3D printing, maybe some history via the TV, reading a half dozen YA books together and discussing them together. We have a history themed weekend trip planned. Still developing the plan.

We're sensitive to raising an adult who can't/won't launch in about ten years. Scared of making life too easy but wanting to find the format this child needs in order to learn without all the distress we've witnessed. Child wants to attend high school next year. Child wants to go to college. Does not have a realistic grasp of the amount of work it will take.

Sorry my post is sort of disjointed. I'm rushing through the post as I am multitasking at work. Thank you for any and all perspectives.

[six-car-habit]

 Sounds like a young adult / hormonal / growth spurt / acne / insecurity issues.

 My kid is younger than yours but we a had a few days where she didn't want to go to school. We explained it was "their job" to go . Just like we had to go to our jobs to keep the roof over our heads. We suggested we could stay home from our jobs for a month or two, and hang out on the couch, and it would be great.... until the house was repossesed and we'd be living under a bridge.  Anyhow, my kid actually really likes school , so we are lucky, we just had a real small blip of anti-school thoughts.

 I find it interesting your child really wants home school now , but thinks they wants to be in high school in a year . What do they feel will be different in a year?? ??
If anything i'd find high school with more kids, older kids, more cliques, etc, more intimidating than middle school....

  Your thouhgts on "real life skills" idea sounds good, sort-of. But that should be combined with the good home school program you've already started. Really the things you've listed are things we try to show- teach our child in the non-school hours / weekends / while we happen to be engaged in them anyway.  I don't think dropping the "academics" completely is likely to help them re-adjust to highschool or college.

 " We need a ditch dug, 4 feet across and 20 feet long, 4 feet deep -- get started. If you don't want to attend school , you may as well see what minimal eductaion will do for your job prospects "  .  When their done, have them refill the hole and plant grass.

[Just Joe]

I like the ditch idea. Neither of our kids have enjoyed academics. Resisted them at every turn. Eldest loved HS. Loved all the kids, all the chaos, the big crowd, the events. Second child is very much a home body which like you makes us question high school being the right fit for child #2.

We've pointed out many times to both kids the result of not getting an education.

Child #1 (not really a child anymore) is reaping the reward of no college working an unskilled trade type job (helper). That child is enrolled in vocational training and on the wait list in lieu of college. Tells me that they aren't excited about school and not excited about work. Okay - but surely they are excited about their leisure activities? Apparently not. Can't decide if this is some sort of psych/emotional problem reveal or kid laying it on thick 'cause they'd rather not need to work or school. We remind them that college is much like HS with 200+ clubs and events and all that sort of stuff but we have been told that college/university work is too hard. After seeking more clarification - short essay of 2-3 pages are impossible. Leads me to think that a few more years of working as a low paid trades helper is required. Maybe its time for kid #1 to deal with the challenges of rent, roommates and so forth. We were trying to give them the advantages of living at home cheap (free) so they can save up money but that's just more money to waste. Sorry for the tangent.

Kid #2 seems to be following down the same anti-academic path.

The dangers of middle class? Life is pretty good so kids get complacent? Seems like we have two very late bloomers.
 

[SunnyDays]

I worked as a behavioural psychologist for many years, so here are my thoughts:

- sounds like any pressure to perform causes behaviour issues.  Could be the material itself (too hard) or just too overwhelming if already dealing with anxiety.  What were previous years like in terms of marks?  The combativeness you get now is likely escape behaviour for either or both of these reasons.

-does child enjoy any activities as long as they aren’t academic or not have an interest in much/anything?  If the latter could be depression.  Generally, depression gets better with activity while anxiety gets worse.  Can have both at once.

-is there social anxiety?  This can make school way harder.

- does cold want to see school/other friends?  If no, then could be depression or social issues.

-any chance child is modeling sibling?  If sib seems to be getting off easy in his/her mind, why should he/she have to work hard?

If school performance itself is a problem, then an assessment to identify ability, strengths and weaknesses could be very helpful.  There could be input or output issues or some intellectual deficits.

If school aversion is just a symptom of anxiety and depression, then addressing that first will be important.

In the meantime, finding ways to build academics into daily life might be successful, as you are planning.  Start working at a level your child has already mastered to ensure success and positive outlook.  Slowwwwwwly make it harder and see what response you get.  Have a lesson followed by a break or fun activity then repeat.  Keep the pressure off.

If you want to PM me with details, I’m willing to help as much as I can.

[six-car-habit]

*** "-any chance child is modeling sibling?  If sib seems to be getting off easy in his/her mind, why should he/she have to work hard?" ***

Going to expand on what SunnyDays said above.

 I was planning on saying i think you should have a "family meeting" with you and wife and Both kids. Kid # 1 is going to have to "suffer" in order for Kid # 2 to get on a straighter path.
- I'm going to assume kid # 1 is 19/20 or older. Have they actually saved any substantial money while living at home rent free ?  It's a great thought to help them "get ahead" but it sounds as if they are not saving much. I had a friend who flunked out of college, he worked a full time job after that and lived at home rent free, but a few years later he was able to put $40K of savings down on a house. Because he was dedicated to savings, and the parents enforced it.

- My own dumb acting self was considered smart , but frankly, when i got to college and the partying was available anytime, i didn't have the maturity to do the work, and put in the time needed. And i could crank out a 3 page essay pretty easily, if i put my mind to it. And got failed out. And stayed and partied. And got thousands of dollars in student loans out of the deal.  MAybe your eldest is not meant for a college curriculum. Probably a skilled trade apprenticeship / joining the military to gain a skill is more appropriate. Don't waste his time and your money.

- Back to the family meeting. I think you should be charging eldest kid rent + utilities + food costs.  It should probably be 50% of take home if they get minimum wage.  40% if they make more.  This is a realistic # , maybe even a low estimate of real life costs. Cover your face, because a punch is coming at you.  You are not doing the kid any favors by letting them "freeload" , and it is a Bad example for kid #2 !!
Kid # 2 Needs to be at this meeting, to see that life costs money, and will be costing them money once they are 18.
 
 You are on the board enough to know this stuff; Boundaries / Expectations / Deadlines.  Nothing is stopping you from putting kid # 1's rent into a separate account, and when they get ready to grow wings give some of it back to them for 1st / last / security deposit for their own [maybe shared with friends] place.  Then you let them manage their own finances and don't bail them out after they've left the house,  - unless it's a true emergency - not some BS like they bought a dog, or got fired, or the roomate/girlfriend left, or other misfortune they brought upon themselves.

[former player]

Have you checked, thoroughly and without chance of cheating, how well your child can read and write?  (Or do basic arithmetic, if maths is the problem?)  Be aware that a great deal of cleverness can go into covering these things up. 

Also, check that your child's eyesight (nearsight and far) and hearing are in good order, if either of these is in any question.

[Ynari]

You've had some good advice already. So many factors could be going into this that I'm glad you're consulting a counselor. Definitely get all the professional help you can here.

As a side thing, I might consider enrichment classes that aren't related to typical "school". Outschool has classes like DnD, learning Spanish through Taylor Swift, nature journaling, etc. Depending on the issue, it could help to be exposed to structured, guided lessons on non-school topics. (Though, as previous posters have pointed out, if the issue is something like a hidden learning disability, it may still be a struggle.)

Best of luck to you and your kid especially.

[Just Joe]

Thank you all. Every point is a good one. I'll sit down with DW and we'll discuss what has been shared. I'll keep everyone up to date. Thank you for your generosity.

[Psychstache]

You can request an evaluation from your local school to rule out/in issues such as learning disorders, anxiety disorders, ADHD, etc. They are required by federal law to do an evaluation even if you are not attending your local school.

[Just Joe]

After watching a short video about a young lady who had a dyslexia problem for years but didn't understand it - I asked both of our kids to read to me. They aren't audiobook/radio announcer material yet but they did okay.

Part of our homeschooling plans include some reading aloud to each other. We will also make sure to do writing exercises. Nobody (teachers) have mentioned dyslexia but we'll study about the topic.We could ask YT's counselor to test YT.

Both teens have been vision tested and are okay. No glasses required.

One small success has been getting the younger teen (YT) on a better sleep schedule. Like many things, YT had to be onboard about it before it was successful. Recently a bedtime between 9:30 and 10 PM and a wakeup time of around 7AM seems to work well. YT has been more friendly and personable. More open to working together.

Also: exercise. YT has a couple of non-structured activities that they like when the summer heat is not oppressive. Bicycling is one. This too seems to be helping. Also reinforces bedtime rituals.

Six-car-habit: good ideas. We are already collecting payments on a car we fronted the money for. OT hasn't missed a payment. We'll hold that money and at some point in the future may choose to return it just as OT is ready to buy a house or other major milestone. Good idea about doing similar with rent money. We haven't charged rent yet but should. You guessed correctly on OT's (older teen) age. I've done enough venting on various threads about other topics that I want to stay anonymous. See https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/dm-register-and-carson-king/

SunnyDays: thank you for the offer to PM with us. I will probably take you up on that at some point. We have about 1 more week before we can get serious about all our plans with YT due to an work obligation so DW and I can both be home every evening to work with YT.

[Johnez]

I've read some replies and feel the need to chime in. You guys seem like really good parents and care deeply about your child's future. That said, no matter the difficulties now, you've likely laid the foundation for success. There's hope, more on that later. I'm bringing this up because I myself had academic troubles at about 4th grade. There were several reasons, and stuff compounded-but it all started because of intense isolation. It sounds petty, and hell I didn't know how to handle it at the time but I was constantly bullied for my appearance and my motivation for school took a dive and didn't recover at all, though the social situation improved eventually. I never knew what the "key" to my troubles were at the time, looking back now though at age 33 I have the hindsight. School was simply a drain, anxiety occupied my thoughts every single day. I looked poor, I looked like a girl, I did not speak or act typically with my peers. Similar (or higher) intelligence, but I did not mesh. In my 20s I suspected Asperger's for a time afterword, or perhaps ADHD. Regardless of what the actual problem may or may not have been, being a social outcast was the beginning and root of every problem I had, which further caused me to isolate myself in computers, games, online communities, etc. I suspect this may be what's happening to the OP.

Anyway, as for hope-I started attending an HVAC/R program at age 30, set to graduate this May. Income opportunity is high and I've already proven able to handle the work. It took me a while, went through hell trying to simply graduate high school, tread water for 10 years in dead end jobs, but today I'm acing my classes, next year future is mine. Hopefully it doesn't take 30 years for your kids to find their place, but heck even if it takes longer than you expect there's no reason to lose hope.

PS, my 2 year old son was diagnosed with autism recently. His diagnosis isn't about me, but damn. Brought up a lot of old issues....

[Just Joe]

Johnez thank you for your post. DW and I also dealt with alot of bullying growing up. DW had coke bottle glasses and I was just awkward. Still am at times. Maybe a tiny touch of Asperger's too. Dunno. That could explain a few things. ;)

I'm really glad to know you found your niche and are finding success with it. Stick with it and I know you're prob already seeing the needle move on your dreams and goals. SO much good information in this forum from some great people I wish I knew in real life.

I also took a winding path to where I'm at today. Really didn't start making "good" money until my mid-30s. That winding path was a good education. Our older teen (OT) is following this path as well it seems.

I know YT (our young teen) has dealt with some bullying for reasons I won't go into. I think that is certainly a part of the problem. I don't think YT was prepared for the push back they received for baring their real self at school. A stiff upper lip and snappy come backs only takes a person so far. Anyhow YT had some good friends who stood by YT through thick and thin but that small friend group has dwindled b/c kids change schools, kids move away. We live in a very red state but perhaps surprisingly there are open minded welcoming people here who don't get hung up on details. Enter the Bible folks. Most I count as friends, coworkers and neighbors. Some are toxic. Its always important to figure who is who early.

YT had a friend since both were babies that turned their back on YT very abruptly at one point b/c of religion. And friend's parents whom we've been friends with all this time too went chilly. Not sure I ever want to expose our family to those people again. YT cried alot over that friendship collapse. YT and friend were like siblings or cousins at times. YT was simply being honest. Funny how some people can preach the good word and not even follow the basics of their own belief system.

There probably isn't a single cause or solution to YT's situation but we're working on it. I think growing up will heal some of these scrapes and bruises. I think YT could tune into school better if YT didn't have to be worried about some other kid (or teacher) broadsiding YT with hurtful words. Looking back on everything I think YT wants to be a genuine, honest person and seeks friendships like this but several times when YT has bared their soul the people around YT have reacted badly. This is a kid that doesn't fit into the world as neatly as other kids. Maybe in a decade's time YT will better understand themselves and have a thicker hide. I think YT is happiest when YT is surrounded by people they can trust.

This whole experience has made me think of all the other kids that were born into families and places that did not accept them for their race or gender or nerdy personality.

I feel just writing this helps understand things a little better. What we've valued the most is the feedback from people like you in this forum, and a few trusted friends. We don't even have alot of family who we can rely on b/c of the religion situation. Don't need anyone seeing this IRL as an opportunity to preach and lecture. Need real here and now discussion with suggestions and that isn't really available from family without all the judgement that comes with it. Fortunately we have a few people who can be that. We'll survive. ;)

[koshtra]

I loathed school at that age, with a white-hot passion that can I can still reactivate by thinking back: I still, if I view a public school's chain-link fence, can feel a rush of that anger and despair.

And my schools were not "bad" at all. I was bullied a little, but nothing very serious.

My parents allowed me, at thirteen, to go to a boarding school far away, a hippie free school (the closest equivalent nowadays would be Sudbury school), and I loved it, and I've been grateful to it ever since. Academically it was basically non existent. I was a voracious reader, so I learned lots that way, but if I hadn't been a reader I wouldn't have learned a damn thing.

But what I had was a community I liked and trusted. And that made a huge, huge difference. People were nice to me. I learned for the first time that in the real world, people are mostly nice to you, if you don't do anything to rile them up. The world is much, much nicer than my public schools were. I needed to know that.

My various academic deficits have been pretty easy to make up, when I've needed to.

I guess what I'm driving at is, the suffering of being at school can be intense, for a weird sensitive kid, and whatever they get in return is really not worth it. I'm all for just taking kids out of school altogether, if they hate it, & if you can swing it. Bonus points if you can find some kind of congenial community for him.

I basically skipped grades 10 through 12, and I've had a lovely rich wonderful life. A lot of people think something dreadful happens to you if aren't in school for those years, but... it certainly never happened to me. I just avoided a ton of pointless suffering, and got on with turning into an adult.

[Johnez]

@Just Joe
I hear you on the religious situation. We are going through similar issues and it's tough. There really isn't any replacement for a nice warm family...and we don't have that. We are working on providing that to our children though and since we know the importance of social connections we aim to foster that, regardless of our "preferences." My boy could be a damn ballerina (ballerino?) for all I care, being happy at who he is top priority.

[Just Joe]

I loathed school at that age, with a white-hot passion that can I can still reactivate by thinking back: I still, if I view a public school's chain-link fence, can feel a rush of that anger and despair.

And my schools were not "bad" at all. I was bullied a little, but nothing very serious.

My parents allowed me, at thirteen, to go to a boarding school far away, a hippie free school (the closest equivalent nowadays would be Sudbury school), and I loved it, and I've been grateful to it ever since. Academically it was basically non existent. I was a voracious reader, so I learned lots that way, but if I hadn't been a reader I wouldn't have learned a damn thing.

But what I had was a community I liked and trusted. And that made a huge, huge difference. People were nice to me. I learned for the first time that in the real world, people are mostly nice to you, if you don't do anything to rile them up. The world is much, much nicer than my public schools were. I needed to know that.

My various academic deficits have been pretty easy to make up, when I've needed to.

I guess what I'm driving at is, the suffering of being at school can be intense, for a weird sensitive kid, and whatever they get in return is really not worth it. I'm all for just taking kids out of school altogether, if they hate it, & if you can swing it. Bonus points if you can find some kind of congenial community for him.

I basically skipped grades 10 through 12, and I've had a lovely rich wonderful life. A lot of people think something dreadful happens to you if aren't in school for those years, but... it certainly never happened to me. I just avoided a ton of pointless suffering, and got on with turning into an adult.

Thank you Koshtra. Yes we do have artsy, unconventional, local playhouse, music playing, crafty type and university type people around us. They have been the most supportive we know. Thank you for your post.

[Just Joe]

@Just Joe
I hear you on the religious situation. We are going through similar issues and it's tough. There really isn't any replacement for a nice warm family...and we don't have that. We are working on providing that to our children though and since we know the importance of social connections we aim to foster that, regardless of our "preferences." My boy could be a damn ballerina (ballerino?) for all I care, being happy at who he is top priority.

Thanks Johnez. One side of the extended family are very good people but they watch too much FoxNews and many conversations seem to be a loose approximation of whatever the recent headlines are. Fox has defined many of their ideals.

The other side is good too but their opinion of many things are very black and white. Lots of easy answers to complicated questions and we all know its seldom that easy. Their intentions are good but their words... A little more reflection before speaking would go a long way. A thicker hide for YT and the rest of us is necessary to get along best with these elders.

We are trying our best to build a child that can cope with the world with all its flaws and demands. They have to. Perhaps not this month or next but eventually YT needs to be able to adapt to life as necessary. We'll get there.

[Just Joe]

Just stumbled across this thread that I started ages ago. Here are a few updates.

Younger offspring (OS#2) with the anxiety and school refusal that I originally wrote about: 180 degree turn around. OS#2 used the COVID "era" for positive change and came out the other side a different person. DW and I still talk in private about how impressed with the turn around OS#2 did. OS#2 sorted out alot of stuff during that time. We'll be touring universities soon.

Edit: Deleted rambles a million words long. Was cathartic to write (good) but might be so boring that readers might need counseling afterwards. ;)

In other news, OS#1 was diagnosed with ADHD. That certainly explains a few things. Things are looking up there too. Going to take a little more time I think. Late bloomer. So was I. And no grandparent, can't bully him past these challenges. Didn't work on me, won't work on them.

I was also diagnosed 45 years ago and just found out. That explains alot of things too. Doubt it was called ADHD back then. Parents chose not to do anything but double down and go the route of strict disciplinarians. Lots of reasons why that didn't work. Also helps explain why middle and high school were so damn miserable.

A little knowledge goes a long way. I feel so much more at peace now. And it has helped put my whole extended family into perspective going back several generations.

"Strong evidence of inheritable traits... Patients with ADHD show high comorbidity with autism, obesity, bipolar disorder and depression, anxiety, and substance use disorder."

Yes, yes it does... I'll be making an appointment to get retested soon. Still struggling with some of those traits. The subject of executive function is an interesting one.

[Fru-Gal]

I didn’t read the thread originally but thanks for the update and congratulations!!!

Raising kids is hard and in many ways the teen years are the hardest, even though you no longer have to worry about them drowning in a bucket. My kids were also not academically inclined despite being curious, smart, able to build computers and repair devices, and having big vocabularies. My threat was always that I would homeschool them. They loved school, hated school work. My joke is that due to Covid, they did end up getting homeschooled or “unschooled”.

They love their hobbies and are impressively able to monetize them. They work hard (but only when interested in the topic or needing money) and the older one pays us rent. The point is, they have turned out well and are finding their own way (one is still a teen and we still argue about school work).

My unpopular opinion that college is nearly obsolete unless you are going into an obscure or demanding or highly licensed profession (medicine, structural engineering, law) or maybe one that requires expensive government-funded equipment (astronomy, deep sea research). Or sports — college sports are great fun, even just intramural.

Even then, there are ways to acquire experience by working your way up that don’t require college. My husband and I are biased since neither of us have college degrees and we’re millionaires now.

[Apples]

Amazing update!  I'm wondering, if you're willing to share - what were the first few things that started the turnaround for OS#2?  My husband has a younger cousin in a similar situation (but a few years older) and so many Gen X and Boomers are suggesting to just "strict discipline" the kid until they "turn it around".  Which obviously is a terrible idea, but so is creating "too soft of a nest to stay in". 

[jeninco]

Amazing update!  I'm wondering, if you're willing to share - what were the first few things that started the turnaround for OS#2?  My husband has a younger cousin in a similar situation (but a few years older) and so many Gen X and Boomers are suggesting to just "strict discipline" the kid until they "turn it around".  Which obviously is a terrible idea, but so is creating "too soft of a nest to stay in".

I'm not sure that's true, if by "create a nest" you mean "provide the supports that the kid needs". Presumably (as has been discussed upthread by people much better informed than I) the kid needs some kind of professional help and/or family support to get past an outside or self-imposed hurdle. The thing about teenagers (and something they have in common with small children) is that if they have a need that isn't getting met, there's going to be a problem (that won't be solved by "strict discipline" unless by "solved" you mean "they move out and hate you while still not really functioning").

[Apples]

Oh no, by creating too safe a nest I was referring to basically permissive parenting that creates a situation of a young adult unable to launch...at all. 

Many people have very good reasons they don't launch right away!  There's also others who end up staying in their parents' house for a very long time, or getting Economic Outpatient Care with no strings attached, in ways that don't serve them in the long term.  I realize this kid, and lots of kids, need professional help and family support to get over a hurdle.  But it can take a lot to identify and then work to solve that hurdle, and I think learning what some of the first things to "help" were would be useful.  Of course every situation requires a different solution, so I don't this this answer would be directly transferable to the kid in my husband's family.

[jeninco]

Oh no, by creating too safe a nest I was referring to basically permissive parenting that creates a situation of a young adult unable to launch...at all. 

Many people have very good reasons they don't launch right away!  There's also others who end up staying in their parents' house for a very long time, or getting Economic Outpatient Care with no strings attached, in ways that don't serve them in the long term.  I realize this kid, and lots of kids, need professional help and family support to get over a hurdle.  But it can take a lot to identify and then work to solve that hurdle, and I think learning what some of the first things to "help" were would be useful.  Of course every situation requires a different solution, so I don't this this answer would be directly transferable to the kid in my husband's family.

Yeah, sorry: I generally feel like the first step of the solution is "regard the individual as an actual person, and try to help understand what the problem is, with compassion". Which, in part of my family of origin, would be "treating them too well and making things too cushy".  (Like, not dealing with my brother's dyslexia so that it morphed into an entire low-self-esteem and personality thing, for instance.)  It's a my-brain problem overreacting here, pretty much.

[Apples]

Fair enough! I had asked my question mostly because figuring out what issue needs to be addressed, and how to address it - while also trying to juggle schooling, socializing, "responsibility" for the kid (like, the kid's responsibilities), and usual parent-child dynamics I feel like makes it hard to get the boat turned around.  Boat referring to the entire complex situation that has put a kid in the situation like the one that OP worked through.  And in the meantime, there's still some amount of daily life going on.  OP, I have no issue if you don't answer, but the first steps in those situations seem to be the hardest, and in your original posts you were open about the defiance/avoidance every morning/day, and that some initial changes weren't promising right away.  So what were some key things that helped?

[Just Joe]

I didn’t read the thread originally but thanks for the update and congratulations!!!

Raising kids is hard and in many ways the teen years are the hardest, even though you no longer have to worry about them drowning in a bucket. My kids were also not academically inclined despite being curious, smart, able to build computers and repair devices, and having big vocabularies. My threat was always that I would homeschool them. They loved school, hated school work. My joke is that due to Covid, they did end up getting homeschooled or “unschooled”.

They love their hobbies and are impressively able to monetize them. They work hard (but only when interested in the topic or needing money) and the older one pays us rent. The point is, they have turned out well and are finding their own way (one is still a teen and we still argue about school work).

My unpopular opinion that college is nearly obsolete unless you are going into an obscure or demanding or highly licensed profession (medicine, structural engineering, law) or maybe one that requires expensive government-funded equipment (astronomy, deep sea research). Or sports — college sports are great fun, even just intramural.

Even then, there are ways to acquire experience by working your way up that don’t require college. My husband and I are biased since neither of us have college degrees and we’re millionaires now.

Good post. Actually DW and I agree with you despite both being university educated. I've suggested to OS#1 that they consider a trade. That one is smart but not academically inclined. We I to do life again I might have chosen the trades too. My engineering career has put me in close contact with the trades and I love it.

[Just Joe]

Amazing update!  I'm wondering, if you're willing to share - what were the first few things that started the turnaround for OS#2?  My husband has a younger cousin in a similar situation (but a few years older) and so many Gen X and Boomers are suggesting to just "strict discipline" the kid until they "turn it around".  Which obviously is a terrible idea, but so is creating "too soft of a nest to stay in".

OS#2 is LGBTQ+ as it turns out. They came out to us a few years ago before COVID. DW is sure, I'm not that OS#2 is fully set in their ways yet. OS#2 dealt with a hard rejection of a non-romantic conservative friend around that time. Family was good friends with all of us, rejected all of us. DW and I were "oh well".

Also OS#2 realized that a portion of our extended family was not going to be supportive for reasons religious and/or political (culture wars stuff). We've counseled OS#2 to be themselves but understand that it might be that nothing good will come from being too open with those people -  for now. Lead by example. Live your best life. Let the rest of them come along or not.

What made the difference was finding OS#2's "people". There was a loosely affiliated group of friends from school that spent time together occasionally. Then COVID and the group became alot closer. So did us parents. Within the group are straight kids and LGBTQ+ kids. Conservative parents and liberal parents. Straight laced parents and old hippies. Churchy folks and not. It really is a great blend. Perhaps odd in this red state area where people seem to seek same-same people.

These kids were welcoming of each other's differences and supportive of each other's passion hobbies. They have gone on to be in some of the same school activities together and just blossomed. This is how friendships are supposed to work. Once OS#2 had a group they felt they could really trust, they couldn't wait to be at school too. Once they realized they really wanted the university experience - the grades had to be good. And so they are.

[Just Joe]

Fair enough! I had asked my question mostly because figuring out what issue needs to be addressed, and how to address it - while also trying to juggle schooling, socializing, "responsibility" for the kid (like, the kid's responsibilities), and usual parent-child dynamics I feel like makes it hard to get the boat turned around.  Boat referring to the entire complex situation that has put a kid in the situation like the one that OP worked through.  And in the meantime, there's still some amount of daily life going on.  OP, I have no issue if you don't answer, but the first steps in those situations seem to be the hardest, and in your original posts you were open about the defiance/avoidance every morning/day, and that some initial changes weren't promising right away.  So what were some key things that helped?

For OS#2 - It took a long time to get the boat turned around. We tried home schooling i.e. teen was home alone during the day working on home schooling assignments and we'd follow up in the evening. That did not work a single day. It was a potentially good program based on what we received (books, websites, other materials). DW and I discussed all sorts of solutions including becoming a single income household so she could stay home with OS#2. Things got dark there for a while and we worried alot about our teen's mental health and emotional health. Our stress levels were through the roof.

We tried counseling. Good counselor. OS#2 didn't want to talk about anything.

Teen got into a deep rut for over a year. Sleep patterns were all over the place. Diet was terrible and picky. They were isolating themselves from their peers. LOTS of non-shooter video games. LOTS of music. LOTS of movies. Teen made benign friends online to game with. Our older offspring gets much credit for helping with the younger one. They bonded over teen pop culture stuff. Slowly things began to improve over the course of a year or more.

DW and I spent alot of time with them doing activities. Bike rides, movies, music, shopping trips, etc. Teen was very fickle about some topics. Anxious about others. 

Meanwhile our boomer parents were losing their minds. One pair thought heavy discipline was the right path. And none of them know our kids as well as they think they do.

Then we all agreed (DW, OS#2, and myself) that OS#2 would return to day school. Home school was never really an option to OS#2. Remember fickle? Enough isolation I guess. So they started back to school.

We scheduled a meeting with the school counselor and key teachers and came away with an individual teaching plan. OS#2 was included in every step of the way. Saw that we all cared about them. Plan included a "safe room" (study room) where OS#2 could go if they were stressed or felt bullied - even if they missed a class doing so. There was tutoring available. Basically a study hall for a bunch of kids that needed a little help. Neither of our kids had any problems with bullies aside from perhaps a couple of isolated episodes thankfully. The school system here has gotten that mostly right. It was a huge problem for DW and me back in the day so we were always sensitive to the problem but that's a story for another post.

Academic help was offered with flexible due dates and opportunities to correct papers to get caught up. I think the opportunity to correct papers and improve grades helped create a good learning feedback loop. A chance to see where the mistakes were.

It benefited OS#2 to see the teachers and counselors as regular people and not just school authoritarians to fear. Once the ball was rolling all things academic and social fell into place. We were cautiously optimistic for a long while.

We met again with the school early this school year and ended the IEP. It served its purpose. Somehow OS#2 did not repeat a year. OS#2 still credits the teachers and counselors today with a big part of this success. They can still go to any of them and ask for help but haven't needed it.

OS#2 looked at the kids in their classes who were most likely going to college and decided thought "I want to be one of them" - and they are. Their friend group gets huge credit here too. The group do a good job of being close but not too close. Silly and caring. There are a dozen or so kids in the group ranging from smart and mainstream to very LGBTQ+ and awkward. And all of them come to our house from time to time for game night or movie and pizza night. We're thankful and eager to give them over the family room.

At home we went through some very busy times and we have pushed OS#2 to go outside of their comfort zone often. Try new foods (picky eater), new activities (outdoorsy stuff with us and friends), help us with these DIY home projects, help me help repair their very MMM-ish car.

We talked ALOT about everything. Family stuff, extended family stuff, religion, history, money, future choices stuff, MMM type stuff. and these weren't lectures but conversations. We talked about things our boomer parents wouldn't dare discuss back in the day, probably still wouldn't. ;)

I have a good relationship with OS#2 now (didn't always), DW has a great one b/c DW is OS#2's go to parent for alot of topics OS#2 would not be comfortable talking to me about. I'm so thankful for DW and OS#1 too.

I'm the parent that does X/Y/Z activities with OS#2 and DW is the parent OS#2 shares those quiet teenage topics with. The first kiss or news of a big crush. Or those awkward teenage questions. I still hear about it discretely from DW of course. Its a good fit for our family dynamics.

So what is the right strategy for anyone but our kid? I have no idea. I have a few broad brush ideas.

Perhaps pull your kid closer. Renew your relationship. Talk. Alot. Listen. Alot. Let them lead the way a little. Make suggestions to them. Sports? Community league sports or school district sports? Scouts? Co-ed scouts (Venturing Scouts)? Volunteering? A project for them that you do together (build or refurbish a go-cart, mtn biking or bike touring together). Garden? Give the family dog a bath? Start small.

Sneak up on that cynical teenage brain and surprise it with something that doesn't completely suck. Mine loves music now. New music and old music and music I would have described as mine until my teen decided it was their music. ;) They love to play me their music on the car stereo via bluetooth. They'll go places with me if I let them play me music. And occasionally I surprise them by knowing the lyrics (some of the lyrics) to their music that is actually my music. Or... Our music. I can't sing and they think it is funny how bad I sound. I'm a terrible singer I know.

How much talk? Whatever they will allow you to do. Or just spend time with them. Together but not necessarily in deep conversation. More do and less talk instead.

Ask the school for help. Hard work is an important lesson but I think a kid needs a few "wins" if they feel like they are some kind of failure or if they feel "broken". Or maybe they feel like they are way behind the other kids and feel like they can never catch up.

My assumption is an unhappy kid is a kid with an unfulfilled need that they may not be able to identify either. Maybe as the adult you can get creative and make suggestions. Enable them to participate in some activity. A million years ago I was a kid that wanted to do stuff but the home support wasn't there (disinterested parents) and my friend network wasn't strong enough that I could ask anyone else to get me somewhere or pick me up b/c we lived too far out of town. Or - - - maybe I thought the support wasn't there but it was and I was too afraid to ask enough. I'm reconsidering my history alot lately.

I don't have alot of concrete answers as we are still working on OS#1 who is having a hard time "adulting" but we have had some recent successes. ADHD figures in heavily. OS#1 is working a new job away from home and this seems to be helping. I'm more like OS#1 and for me it was the military that helped the most but it was tough b/c undiagnosed ADHD/ADD. I mean my parents knew but they didn't tell me until about two weeks ago.

Meanwhile on the topic of ADHD I ran across some stuff on Reddit that I'm reading casually (i.e. not as medical fact) that indicates ADHD folks are often late bloomers. Yeah, that's been my experience and I think that describes OS#1 too.

Also the basic discussion there in the support groups has been great. I'm just lurking and reading. The "parents' of ADHD kids" discussion offered me some different perspectives on *perhaps* my parents' experiences back in the day. Food for thought. And yeah, I'm aware of confirmation bias. ;)

[Apples]

Thank you for sharing!  A wonderful, thorough update!  I'm glad your whole family seems to be finding their way in the world :)

[Just Joe]

Thank you for reading my tome... ;)

I wish you success and happiness with your family and offspring. Keep reading and listening. You'll find your way.

This place (and a few others) have been a gold mine of good ideas for optimizing life. Its the education school could never be.

[StarBright]

Thank you so much for coming back and updating!  For those of us with neurospicy kiddos it is great to read about young adults with successful outcomes and good relationships with their parents.

As far as ADHD and late blooming - our son's counselor told us that kids with neurodiversities will generally have a two year social/emotional lag at minimum in the elementary years and we have found that to be true.

I also have a brother who was slow to launch, but between the ages of 28-35 he sort of caught up and now he is 39 with a job that pays better than mine, a lovely wife, and a precious toddler.

[Just Joe]

Neurospicy! I love that! Consider that stolen. ;)

Two years sounds about right. Patience! And more patience.

[jeninco]

This was a really lovely, heartwarming story to read, OP -- thanks for the details! I know a lot of it probably wasn't fun to live through, but it sounds like everyone's in a vastly better place now.

I love reading about how people manage to re-engage their teenagers by pulling them closer and treating them like actual individual people.

[Just Joe]

More good news: OS#2 is going to a state tournament with their HS club! Apparently they do their thing very well. 

[Apples]

WOOOHOOO CONGRATS!

[Just Joe]

OS#2 (and their group) won first place at the state competition!

Without getting too specific for privacy but not athletics. Other high school stuff. Not discounting their success at all. Its a huge big deal! Someone is bound to wonder in what and maybe that'll help satisfy their curiosity.

Asked OS#2 if they were planning to participate next year and received an enthusiastic YES! The enthusiasm is the important part. ;)

In other news OS#1 has decided to get certified in SCUBA. Also - enthusiasm...

[BicycleB]

@Just Joe, totally thrilled and impressed by the whole story in the long post from April 18. Just - wow, great parenting, two thumbs up.

[Miss Piggy]

What made the difference was finding OS#2's "people". There was a loosely affiliated group of friends from school that spent time together occasionally. Then COVID and the group became alot closer. So did us parents. Within the group are straight kids and LGBTQ+ kids. Conservative parents and liberal parents. Straight laced parents and old hippies. Churchy folks and not. It really is a great blend...

I wish the entire world worked more like this.

I've loved reading these updates. Well done, parents. :)

[Just Joe]

Nah, the kids (young adults really) and DW get the credit. We just steadied the ship so they could figure things out for themselves.

This is probably what "real world great" looks like. Is anything ever 100% textbook perfection? Everyone is content and working towards positive things. I'm happy with that.

If I had been a single Dad without DW for a sounding board I would have made ALL the Dad mistakes. That's how I find success - make all the possible mistakes first. ;)

[Just Joe]

And - thank you for your support everyone. I've read so much useful information here on the forums. Fielded some ideas - some good, some just plain stupid. Learned lots everytime.