Another school shooting - elementary school

[Greystache]

People are asking what is it that makes the problem different in the US vs the rest of the developed world.  I don't think it is one thing but the unique confluence of several things that have happened in the US over the last three or four decades.
1. The erosion of mental health services. Ironically, it is often the same group of people who want to reduce funding for public health that also want easier access to guns.
2. The whole gun fetish and glorification of violence. The encouragement of a violent response to minor provocations or perceived slights. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Looking for a justification to escalated a situation to a violent conclusion instead of looking for a way to de-escalate to a peaceful solution.  Many of these things existed before, but at an individual level without much reinforcement. Now, with the advent of social media echo chambers, it is easier to find a community of like-minded people to amplify and reinforce these ideas.
3. The ease of access to extremely destructive weapons. It is now easier than ever to obtain high-powered, semi-automatic weapon with high capacity box magazines that can be reloaded in a few seconds.
TDLR: In the US, we have created the environment for violence at the same time we have made the perfect tool for violence readily available.

[shureShote]

2. The whole gun fetish and glorification of violence. The encouragement of a violent response to minor provocations or perceived slights. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Looking for a justification to escalated a situation to a violent conclusion instead of looking for a way to de-escalate to a peaceful solution.  Many of these things existed before, but at an individual level without much reinforcement. Now, with the advent of social media echo chambers, it is easier to find a community of like-minded people to amplify and reinforce these ideas.

I have thought a lot about your second point. One unpopular angle I have is that several other outlets have been made "wrong" and I have contemplated what that has done to the situation. We used to solve a lot of problems with one on one fistfights just off school grounds. Now that has fallen out of favor best I can tell. Do frustrations mount as a result? We used to also bully and call people all sorts of names, which has also fallen out of favor, but it might have prevented a build up of hate (though of course it sucked big time for those on the receiving end). The advent of the internet in the 90s was referenced way up thread. I might add the whole Political Correctness movement seems to have started to grow sometime around there.

Is it possible some small pressures are not being released and now they build and build and make for a much larger problem? Likely easy to refute, but just adding it as an angle about what has changed in the last x years that seems to have made the shootings worse.

[MOD NOTE: it was at this point, after  reading up the thread, and then reading back down, that I decided to ban this user.  Wow, not letting bullies hurt people causes school shootings?]

[sixwings]

Beefing up school security might work to prevent shootings in some parts of the country, but I can't think of a single school I've ever visited in Hawaii that could be fortified in the ways people are suggesting. Every school I'm familiar with in Hawaii has an open campus. The last public elementary school our daughter attended on Oahu consisted of a half dozen buildings on an ~20 acre campus. DD's 2nd grade classroom was grouped with two other 2nd grade classrooms, on the first floor of one of the buildings. On the second floor of the same building were three third grade classrooms. Anyone could walk onto the school campus from a million different directions. I literally used to hike about a mile up a trail through the woods from the public library up the hill to my daughter's school. Visitors were supposed to check in at the office, but I never did. My daughter's second grade classroom always had the door propped open and all of the windows open. Anyone could just walk inside, which I did almost every day. Sure, that school could install air conditioning in all of its classrooms and order teachers to keep doors locked and windows closed, at all times, but what would that accomplish? A shooter could just as easily take out most students and teachers, just by shooting in through the windows. Also, little kids have to go to the bathroom sometimes. The only way for children to get to a restroom in schools like that is to unlock a classroom door, step outside, and walk 100'+ to the nearest restroom. Thankfully, there aren't many school shootings in Hawaii, maybe because the state has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.

The ideas of fortifying schools and arming teachers isn't an actual serious solution. It's just the NRA talking points for people who don't care that kids get mowed down but feel like they need to suggest "something" because there's a lot of (rightfully) social stigma around saying that you're fine with other peoples kids getting shot as long as you get to keep your guns.

[Psychstache]

2. The whole gun fetish and glorification of violence. The encouragement of a violent response to minor provocations or perceived slights. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Looking for a justification to escalated a situation to a violent conclusion instead of looking for a way to de-escalate to a peaceful solution.  Many of these things existed before, but at an individual level without much reinforcement. Now, with the advent of social media echo chambers, it is easier to find a community of like-minded people to amplify and reinforce these ideas.

I have thought a lot about your second point. One unpopular angle I have is that several other outlets have been made "wrong" and I have contemplated what that has done to the situation. We used to solve a lot of problems with one on one fistfights just off school grounds. Now that has fallen out of favor best I can tell. Do frustrations mount as a result? We used to also bully and call people all sorts of names, which has also fallen out of favor, but it might have prevented a build up of hate (though of course it sucked big time for those on the receiving end). The advent of the internet in the 90s was referenced way up thread. I might add the whole Political Correctness movement seems to have started to grow sometime around there.

Is it possible some small pressures are not being released and now they build and build and make for a much larger problem? Likely easy to refute, but just adding it as an angle about what has changed in the last x years that seems to have made the shootings worse.

Yes you are right, Catharsis Theory/venting is easy to refute. One example:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf

[DadJokes]

Thank you for the reminder, I have just have made a donation to Everytown for Gun Safety, who have a triple match for donations today, May 31. To my shame and embarrassment, it's probably the first donation I've made since Parkland.  What is new is I have just signed up for a monthly charge, even though I hate hate hate repeated costs.

(Please don't take this to be combative in any way)

I haven't looked into the charity, but do they have something they can point to showing that they have made any kind of dent in the issue? Gun violence certainly doesn't seem to be getting better, though I don't have data to back that belief up.

[Just Joe]

I went to church this week. While I know the pastor has to give the Bible response of "If someone had witnessed to this person, maybe this doesn't happen," it's just infuriating to me. There's less religion in Europe's culture, and they don't have this problem, so maybe that's not the issue.

Don't get me wrong; I certainly don't want the pastor to get up there and discuss politics, but the cliché response just makes me more upset than saying nothing at all.

That is part of why DW and I quit church religion many years ago. We miss the sense of community but the rest no so much.

[DadJokes]

On the note of "fortifying" schools, I've seen several reports that the shooter entered the school via a door that was left propped open by a teacher who went to her car to get her phone.

An effective control means very little when human error can override it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't implement cost-effective controls, but at the end of the day, the obvious answer is that an 18-year-old shouldn't be able to purchase a weapon of war.

Hell, I have a similar rifle to commemorate my military time (which is locked in a safe at all times), and I'd happily give it up if it meant no more school shootings.

Edit: the surveillance evidence now suggests that the door was not propped open by the time the gunman arrived. There’s a paywalled article that discusses it, but here’s a snippet: https://twitter.com/econburk/status/1531720127686660096?s=21&t=jPrzV_3Td5_-3C_lPfNZHw

[former player]

2. The whole gun fetish and glorification of violence. The encouragement of a violent response to minor provocations or perceived slights. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Looking for a justification to escalated a situation to a violent conclusion instead of looking for a way to de-escalate to a peaceful solution.  Many of these things existed before, but at an individual level without much reinforcement. Now, with the advent of social media echo chambers, it is easier to find a community of like-minded people to amplify and reinforce these ideas.

I have thought a lot about your second point. One unpopular angle I have is that several other outlets have been made "wrong" and I have contemplated what that has done to the situation. We used to solve a lot of problems with one on one fistfights just off school grounds. Now that has fallen out of favor best I can tell. Do frustrations mount as a result? We used to also bully and call people all sorts of names, which has also fallen out of favor, but it might have prevented a build up of hate (though of course it sucked big time for those on the receiving end). The advent of the internet in the 90s was referenced way up thread. I might add the whole Political Correctness movement seems to have started to grow sometime around there.

Is it possible some small pressures are not being released and now they build and build and make for a much larger problem? Likely easy to refute, but just adding it as an angle about what has changed in the last x years that seems to have made the shootings worse.

I'd love to think that bullying has gone away but it is highly unlikely.  Any form of difference from the socially accepted norm is still a target for name calling and social exclusion by children and adults, even if matters haven't escalated to violence (and the definition of bullying, and its malign effects, are not limited to physically violent bullying). And isn't it often the bullied/outcast who become school shooters?

[Just Joe]

I think there is something happening at a lower level here that no one wants to talk about, and that guns are just an obvious thing easy to point at, and fundamentally easy to fix.

Dissolution of the family unit and a strong sense of community? Rise of consumerism replacing traditional values? Politics stoking every controversy for maximum division and polarization of voting public?

I'm curious what everyone thinks.

[MasterStache]

On the note of "fortifying" schools, I've seen several reports that the shooter entered the school via a door that was left propped open by a teacher who went to her car to get her phone.

An effective control means very little when human error can override it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't implement cost-effective controls, but at the end of the day, the obvious answer is that an 18-year-old shouldn't be able to purchase a weapon of war.

It's also reported that the shooter locked the classroom doors so officers couldn't gain entry. Took officers 30 minutes to track down the classroom keys. Sometimes the best intentions at security backfire.

[Kris]

I think there is something happening at a lower level here that no one wants to talk about, and that guns are just an obvious thing easy to point at, and fundamentally easy to fix.

Dissolution of the family unit and a strong sense of community? Rise of consumerism replacing traditional values? Politics stoking every controversy for maximum division and polarization of voting public?

I'm curious what everyone thinks.

Those things aren't just limited to the US, though.

I do think there's a particular "brand" of masculine identity that is over-represented in the US, which correlates somewhat strongly with performative violence in word and action, repression of certain emotions coded as "feminine," and gun culture as an aspect of performative manliness.

[chemistk]

I think there is something happening at a lower level here that no one wants to talk about, and that guns are just an obvious thing easy to point at, and fundamentally easy to fix.

Dissolution of the family unit and a strong sense of community? Rise of consumerism replacing traditional values? Politics stoking every controversy for maximum division and polarization of voting public?

I'm curious what everyone thinks.

The ever rising feeling that society is unequitable, that individuals' needs are often ignored because of fear that an overly moralized society will recognize deviancy and enact punitive measures toward the individual and their family? The complacency toward change in one's own self image and the needlessly inaccessible resources to help cope with complex emotional situations? The fact that many, many individuals feel some degree of burnout in either or both their home and work lives, often manifesting itself in depression, anxiety, or other neuroses, which in turn spreads insidiously to those around the one feeling burnout?

[shureShote]

2. The whole gun fetish and glorification of violence. The encouragement of a violent response to minor provocations or perceived slights. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Looking for a justification to escalated a situation to a violent conclusion instead of looking for a way to de-escalate to a peaceful solution.  Many of these things existed before, but at an individual level without much reinforcement. Now, with the advent of social media echo chambers, it is easier to find a community of like-minded people to amplify and reinforce these ideas.

I have thought a lot about your second point. One unpopular angle I have is that several other outlets have been made "wrong" and I have contemplated what that has done to the situation. We used to solve a lot of problems with one on one fistfights just off school grounds. Now that has fallen out of favor best I can tell. Do frustrations mount as a result? We used to also bully and call people all sorts of names, which has also fallen out of favor, but it might have prevented a build up of hate (though of course it sucked big time for those on the receiving end). The advent of the internet in the 90s was referenced way up thread. I might add the whole Political Correctness movement seems to have started to grow sometime around there.

Is it possible some small pressures are not being released and now they build and build and make for a much larger problem? Likely easy to refute, but just adding it as an angle about what has changed in the last x years that seems to have made the shootings worse.

Yes you are right, Catharsis Theory/venting is easy to refute. One example:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf

I don't think anything on this subject should actually be stated as being easy. So what do these theories say is the problem? Why does a kid go shoot up other kids? With the large number of shootings, I want there to be an explanation that explains enough of them so a possible solution could be crafted that should have a real preventative impact. Revolutionary War muskets and locked doors would surely decrease the impact, but I am interested in preventing the chain that causes some kid / grown-up from heading down the path.

Alas, I fear my want has close to no chance of being realized.

[Just Joe]

I agree Kris.

I see that the community is discussing tearing down the building and building something new. Seems more frugal to build a new, better school somewhere else and renovating the existing (nice) building for other uses. Perhaps a community center or low income housing?

Re: bullying, I don't understand the need to kill little children uninvolved with the bullying the shooter experienced. I experienced alot of bullying in school in the 1980s. I was an awkward kid. Never once wanted to hurt random people.

[Poundwise]

Thank you for the reminder, I have just have made a donation to Everytown for Gun Safety, who have a triple match for donations today, May 31. To my shame and embarrassment, it's probably the first donation I've made since Parkland.  What is new is I have just signed up for a monthly charge, even though I hate hate hate repeated costs.

(Please don't take this to be combative in any way)

I haven't looked into the charity, but do they have something they can point to showing that they have made any kind of dent in the issue? Gun violence certainly doesn't seem to be getting better, though I don't have data to back that belief up.

You can peruse and judge for yourself whether these statewide wins were effective.
https://www.everytown.org/about-everytown/victories/

From this article, we can see:

All of those states with the highest gun death rates are among the ones with the highest gun ownership rates.

    Mississippi -- 50% of adults live in a household with a gun.
    Louisiana -- 48%.
    Wyoming -- 59%.
    Missouri -- 48%.
    Alabama -- 50%.
    Alaska -- 59%.

Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:

    Hawaii -- 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
    Massachusetts -- 3.7 (10%).
    New Jersey -- 5 (8%).
    Rhode Island -- 5.1 (11%).
    New York -- 5.3 (14%).

Though MA, NJ, RI, and NY, are all in the top ten for population density in the US and have medium/high poverty, they are four of the five states with lowest gun death rates and are associated very low gun ownership too. Further, these states are in the lower half for homicide rate, and some of the lowest for suicides, so people are not just moving to other methods of intentional violent death. Hawaii, with the lowest gun deaths in the nation, doesn't break the pattern but because it doesn't share borders with states with lax gun laws, its laws are more effective.

[edit to add:] My point being, Everytown advocates for stricter gun laws and here are a couple of ranking of the states with stricter gun laws. They are correlated with states with low gun death, low homicide and low suicide rates, and low gun ownership. Make of that what you will.
https://www.deseret.com/2022/5/27/23144447/states-with-the-strictest-gun-control-laws-mass-shooting-2nd-amendment-violent-crime-concealed-carry
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/strictest-gun-laws-by-state

[shureShote]

Re: bullying, I don't understand the need to kill little children uninvolved with the bullying the shooter experienced. I experienced alot of bullying in school in the 1980s. I was an awkward kid. Never once wanted to hurt random people.

Yeah, this is what has me so confused. If we assume momentarily that bullying is some piece of the problem, why the rampage against a group these days? Is the bullying different?

@Kris mentioned a combination of masculinity and repressed feelings coupled with an awful lot of fake violence and a lot of guns. But that seems more related to the bullies than the bullied? Though now that I type that and try to think it through, the wannabe masculinity of the bullies could be a catalyst for the bullied, so it is not unconnected. Are there instances of "well, just watch what I can do!"?

[Poundwise]

I don't think anything on this subject should actually be stated as being easy. So what do these theories say is the problem? Why does a kid go shoot up other kids? With the large number of shootings, I want there to be an explanation that explains enough of them so a possible solution could be crafted that should have a real preventative impact. Revolutionary War muskets and locked doors would surely decrease the impact, but I am interested in preventing the chain that causes some kid / grown-up from heading down the path.

IMO, guns are like wishes. If everybody in the world got a single no-holds-barred wish, within a microsecond the universe would cease to exist.  There are few people who haven't had that moment or period in their life where they hated everybody and everything, and wished everybody would go away, disappear. A gun gives a kid or an adult in crisis the opportunity to make that wish come true. And in our society, guns, ammunition, and the information needed to modify them for mass murder are easy to find.

Other common wishes that a gun may fulfill is the need to be important, famous, dangerous, manly.

[Kris]

Re "manliness"/toxic masculinity, let's not forget the correlation between mass shootings and domestic violence.

https://efsgv.org/press/study-two-thirds-of-mass-shootings-linked-to-domestic-violence/

[MasterStache]

2. The whole gun fetish and glorification of violence. The encouragement of a violent response to minor provocations or perceived slights. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Looking for a justification to escalated a situation to a violent conclusion instead of looking for a way to de-escalate to a peaceful solution.  Many of these things existed before, but at an individual level without much reinforcement. Now, with the advent of social media echo chambers, it is easier to find a community of like-minded people to amplify and reinforce these ideas.

I have thought a lot about your second point. One unpopular angle I have is that several other outlets have been made "wrong" and I have contemplated what that has done to the situation. We used to solve a lot of problems with one on one fistfights just off school grounds. Now that has fallen out of favor best I can tell. Do frustrations mount as a result? We used to also bully and call people all sorts of names, which has also fallen out of favor, but it might have prevented a build up of hate (though of course it sucked big time for those on the receiving end). The advent of the internet in the 90s was referenced way up thread. I might add the whole Political Correctness movement seems to have started to grow sometime around there.

Is it possible some small pressures are not being released and now they build and build and make for a much larger problem? Likely easy to refute, but just adding it as an angle about what has changed in the last x years that seems to have made the shootings worse.

Yes you are right, Catharsis Theory/venting is easy to refute. One example:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf

I don't think anything on this subject should actually be stated as being easy. So what do these theories say is the problem? Why does a kid go shoot up other kids? With the large number of shootings, I want there to be an explanation that explains enough of them so a possible solution could be crafted that should have a real preventative impact. Revolutionary War muskets and locked doors would surely decrease the impact, but I am interested in preventing the chain that causes some kid / grown-up from heading down the path.

Alas, I fear my want has close to no chance of being realized.

People shoot up schools for a variety of reasons. There isn't one single trigger that we can simply focus on and fix in terms of psychology. There are a lot of published papers out there focused on the psychology. Have at it.

The one thing they all do have in common though is easy access to firearms.   

[shureShote]

The one thing they all do have in common though is easy access to firearms.

Correlation? Sure. Causation? Unknown. There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

Or, would these shootings be OK if there were only a single victim? (obviously not, that is really tongue-in-cheek) Or, how much of a decrease is "good enough"? 100%? Of course. 10%? Likely not. 50%? Still maybe in the gray area.

It will take a ton of effort to get guns away from us, and defining goals and expectations will be important.

[GuitarStv]

There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

The countries that have more stringent gun restrictions have not seen a corresponding increase in mass murders by alternate source.  So maybe, let's worry about problems like mass murder by SUV if/when they materialize as a real problem.

[JLee]

The one thing they all do have in common though is easy access to firearms.

Correlation? Sure. Causation? Unknown. There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

Or, would these shootings be OK if there were only a single victim? (obviously not, that is really tongue-in-cheek) Or, how much of a decrease is "good enough"? 100%? Of course. 10%? Likely not. 50%? Still maybe in the gray area.

It will take a ton of effort to get guns away from us, and defining goals and expectations will be important.

How many times has that happened?

[shureShote]

There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

The countries that have more stringent gun restrictions have not seen a corresponding increase in mass murders by alternate source.  So maybe, let's worry about problems like mass murder by SUV if/when they materialize as a real problem.

Not if you want to convince me to turn in my guns. You better bring me a detailed study of running down the several million potential unintended consequences and demonstrate that they have been discussed, thought through, and mitigation plans put in place as needed. "Let's do this and see" is not not good enough for me.

Maybe I am such an outlier that I can be ignored, but I am not going to vote for (or support) anything that causes me to collect up my guns and ammo and turn them in without more of a plan than "other countries did it and it worked."

Hopefully I am not coming off as overly argumentative, it's not my intent. Just trying to show a point of view.

Here's yet another one. For those of you who are fully addicted to your smart phone, what would it take for you to turn them in? (clearly a half-baked analogy...need more time)

[Poundwise]

There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

The countries that have more stringent gun restrictions have not seen a corresponding increase in mass murders by alternate source.  So maybe, let's worry about problems like mass murder by SUV if/when they materialize as a real problem.

...and the sources that I posted above show that states with more stringent gun restrictions have the lowest rates of intentionally violent deaths of any sort, whether by shooting or other means.   

With respect to number of mass shootings, somehow the six states with the highest number of mass shootings are also the six states with the highest populations. I haven't seen ranking by mass shooting deaths per 100,000, though this can probably be easily calculated.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/mass-shootings-by-state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

[MasterStache]

There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

The countries that have more stringent gun restrictions have not seen a corresponding increase in mass murders by alternate source.  So maybe, let's worry about problems like mass murder by SUV if/when they materialize as a real problem.

Not if you want to convince me to turn in my guns. You better bring me a detailed study of running down the several million potential unintended consequences and demonstrate that they have been discussed, thought through, and mitigation plans put in place as needed. "Let's do this and see" is not not good enough for me.

Maybe I am such an outlier that I can be ignored, but I am not going to vote for (or support) anything that causes me to collect up my guns and ammo and turn them in without more of a plan than "other countries did it and it worked."

Hopefully I am not coming off as overly argumentative, it's not my intent. Just trying to show a point of view.

Here's yet another one. For those of you who are fully addicted to your smart phone, what would it take for you to turn them in? (clearly a half-baked analogy...need more time)

So you want to see thoroughly discussed and detailed mitigation plans for millions of other potential ways of committing mass school shootings before you'll budge on the only way mass school shootings are conducted? 

Your point of view doesn't make sense. It's like saying I refuse to give up eating chocolate because of clouds.

Smart phones don't kill kids in mass quantities. If you've got millions of other viable mass school shooting options that need discussed perhaps you should comb through them yourself and figure out which ones equate to mass murder by firearms. SUVs and phones are a nil value.

[GuitarStv]

There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

The countries that have more stringent gun restrictions have not seen a corresponding increase in mass murders by alternate source.  So maybe, let's worry about problems like mass murder by SUV if/when they materialize as a real problem.

Not if you want to convince me to turn in my guns. You better bring me a detailed study of running down the several million potential unintended consequences and demonstrate that they have been discussed, thought through, and mitigation plans put in place as needed. "Let's do this and see" is not not good enough for me.

That's not reasonable.

You invented the imaginary problem of SUV mass murders taking the place of gun deaths.  This just hasn't happened anywhere in the world that gun controls have been implemented, so is an extraordinary claim to make.  In a logical debate, burden of proof lies with the person who makes an extraordinary claim to prove that it's a real concern.

Maybe I am such an outlier that I can be ignored, but I am not going to vote for (or support) anything that causes me to collect up my guns and ammo and turn them in without more of a plan than "other countries did it and it worked."

You're not an outlier at all.  Gun lovers in the US typically don't want gun control in any form - it impacts their hobby.  This is why they've steadily moved to expand gun rights to the ridiculous levels that they're currently at, and now the rest of society is reaping the result.

I don't want you to turn in your guns.  I do want you to own the results of your decision.  While you stand in the way of solutions, those mass shootings are on your hands and the hands of others like you.  If you're OK with that, keep the guns.  But don't pretend to both care about the problem while blocking solutions every way you can.

[sixwings]

shureShot is a good example of what most gun owners feel and why gun control is going nowhere. He's perfectly fine with other peoples kids getting shot en masse as long as it's not his kids and he gets to keep his guns. His disengenous request for detailed plans outlining millions of side effects or whatever is just a cover up because he has enough self awareness to know that saying he's fine with it isn't really acceptable in most social circles, but he's very clear he's fine with the status quo. I don't think it's really a gap that can ever really be covered and negotiated. I just wish he, and people like him (apologies if you're female), would at least have the courage to say that they are fine with children being shot, guns are more important, and take accountability for these events, so these pretenses at being reasonable can end.

[JLee]

That's not reasonable.

You invented the imaginary problem of SUV mass murders taking the place of gun deaths.  This just hasn't happened anywhere in the world that gun controls have been implemented, so is an extraordinary claim to make.  In a logical debate, burden of proof lies with the person who makes an extraordinary claim to prove that it's a real concern.

OK, the SUV things seems to be a hang up, scratch it.

No kid has access to my house or my guns. To ME it is an extraordinary claim that me turning in my guns or having the government be allowed to come inspect my storage at their will will impact school shootings. I have not seen extraordinary proof for that claim. I guess the argument is that other countries have done it, but I have already said, that I don't accept that as proof that it will work in the US. So maybe there is no solution, since I won't accept what has been offered, and no other proof is willing to be worked on to provide.

tldr "fuck everyone else, I don't care"

[Kris]

There are a lot of other mass destruction tools out there, how to prevent the next easiest from taking over? I'm thinking how much mayhem a kid could do with  a full-sized SUV at 100MPH and a simple swerve into the oncoming bus. My thinking there is wondering if the difficulty of deciding to do the rampage is so hard that finding a killing tool barely makes the list and guns would quickly be replaced.

The countries that have more stringent gun restrictions have not seen a corresponding increase in mass murders by alternate source.  So maybe, let's worry about problems like mass murder by SUV if/when they materialize as a real problem.

...and the sources that I posted above show that states with more stringent gun restrictions have the lowest rates of intentionally violent deaths of any sort, whether by shooting or other means.   

With respect to number of mass shootings, somehow the six states with the highest number of mass shootings are also the six states with the highest populations. I haven't seen ranking by mass shooting deaths per 100,000, though this can probably be easily calculated.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/mass-shootings-by-state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

This tracks for me, as I have a strong hunch the sort of masculine identity that is strongly associated with seeing violent/aggressive behavior as positive/manly feeds into/is fed by gun culture identity as well. "Real men defend their territory/their women/their property, whatever it takes" blowhard discourse, etc.

[MasterStache]

That's not reasonable.

You invented the imaginary problem of SUV mass murders taking the place of gun deaths.  This just hasn't happened anywhere in the world that gun controls have been implemented, so is an extraordinary claim to make.  In a logical debate, burden of proof lies with the person who makes an extraordinary claim to prove that it's a real concern.

OK, the SUV things seems to be a hang up, scratch it.

No kid has access to my house or my guns. To ME it is an extraordinary claim that me turning in my guns or having the government be allowed to come inspect my storage at their will will impact school shootings. I have not seen extraordinary proof for that claim. I guess the argument is that other countries have done it, but I have already said, that I don't accept that as proof that it will work in the US. So maybe there is no solution, since I won't accept what has been offered, and no other proof is willing to be worked on to provide.

I know a lot of kids are getting murdered but what are we going to do about the rock in my shoe? The NRA would love you.

[shureShote]

The attacks have started, headed back to other threads. I appreciated the back and forth from some of you. I learned a few things.

[MOD NOTE:  Any "attacks" were against your position, and were entirely justified.  Banned.]

[FrugalToque]

2. The whole gun fetish and glorification of violence. The encouragement of a violent response to minor provocations or perceived slights. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Looking for a justification to escalated a situation to a violent conclusion instead of looking for a way to de-escalate to a peaceful solution.  Many of these things existed before, but at an individual level without much reinforcement. Now, with the advent of social media echo chambers, it is easier to find a community of like-minded people to amplify and reinforce these ideas.

I have thought a lot about your second point. One unpopular angle I have is that several other outlets have been made "wrong" and I have contemplated what that has done to the situation. We used to solve a lot of problems with one on one fistfights just off school grounds. Now that has fallen out of favor best I can tell. Do frustrations mount as a result? We used to also bully and call people all sorts of names, which has also fallen out of favor, but it might have prevented a build up of hate (though of course it sucked big time for those on the receiving end). The advent of the internet in the 90s was referenced way up thread. I might add the whole Political Correctness movement seems to have started to grow sometime around there.

Is it possible some small pressures are not being released and now they build and build and make for a much larger problem? Likely easy to refute, but just adding it as an angle about what has changed in the last x years that seems to have made the shootings worse.

The basic weirdness of this string of posts made me conclude you really don't have anything to contribute.

That's right.  We made it "wrong" for large children to beat the shit out of small children.  I had a teacher in grade 10 phys-ed that just expected me to somehow "fight back" against kids who had been held back a year and out-massed me 50%.  He shook his head at *me* when they hurt me.  That's bullshit if you think they should be allowed to hurt me just so they don't turn into school shooters.  "One-on-one fistfights" was a 1980s' term for when the little kid put up a tiny bit of a fight, so fuck that noise, too.

As for "Political Correctness", telling people not to use racial slurs, sexist slurs and everything else did *not* create school shootings.  That ridiculous statement convinced me you were a troll and have no place in this discussion or on this forum.  That kind of libertarian b.s. we do not need.

There is already a lot of data on what causes and doesn't cause school shootings, and that data has already been displayed by numerous people on this thread.  If some racist nutbag who listened to QAnon conspiracy theories shoots up an mall frequented by African Americans in Buffalo, you don't blame the fact that he can't call Black people n-words for the shooting.  You blame the ignorance and racism of the radical right wing of American politics.

Toque.

[Kris]

I find it relatively fascinating that Shureshote’s signature is, “I believe in accountability.”

I sense that none of those words means the same to them as they do to me.

[Gremlin]

I find it relatively fascinating that Shureshote’s signature is, “I believe in accountability.”

I sense that none of those words means the same to them as they do to me.

I'm glad someone else also noted the irony.

[scottish]

The Canadian government is introducing a bill to freeze handgun ownership in response to the Texas incident.

The new legislation would amend the Firearms Act to freeze the buying, selling, importing and trading of handguns nationwide. The measures stop short of banning handguns outright, allowing existing owners to keep their handguns.

Bill C-21 would also allow for the automatic removal of gun licences from people who have committed domestic violence or engaged in criminal harassment, such as stalking. And it would create a new “red flag” law that would allow courts to require that people considered a danger to themselves or others surrender their firearms to police.

[Morning Glory]

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/01/1102539255/multiple-people-shot-medical-building-tulsa-oklahoma

[Morning Glory]

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/01/1102539255/multiple-people-shot-medical-building-tulsa-oklahoma

Another one already.

[GuitarStv]

The NRA again thanks the dead for their sacrifice to the greater good of gun rights.

[CodingHare]

The NRA again thanks the dead for their sacrifice to the greater good of gun rights.

"This Memorial Day, we once again thank the brave schoolchildren and women who died for our right to bear arms.  2A!  USA!  2A!"  /s

NPR reported that this was the 233rd mass shooting this year.  Today, June 2nd, is only the 153rd day in 2022.  That's 1.52 shootings per day in America.

But we've tried nothing and are all out of ideas.

[GuitarStv]

That's 1.52 mass shootings per day in America.

There are way more shootings that aren't counted as mass shootings.  :P

[OzzieandHarriet]

So this Tulsa shooting, the guy was a patient angry because he was in pain after back surgery. He bought his AR-15 and ammunition on the same day he shot and killed the surgeon and three other people and then himself.

But no, this is not the time to talk about gun control.

[getsorted]

Obviously I’m being sarcastic, but I did see a bunch of comments on a local news site about how nothing like Uvalde happened during Trump’s presidency. When asked about Parkland, FL and Santa Fe, TX, that poster explained that those weren’t *elementary* schools.

Don't you know that Joe Biden is responsible for everything that happens? I got bitten by a horsefly yesterday, and it's way too early for horseflies. All I'm saying is, that never happened to me when Trump was president!

[MasterStache]

Obviously I’m being sarcastic, but I did see a bunch of comments on a local news site about how nothing like Uvalde happened during Trump’s presidency. When asked about Parkland, FL and Santa Fe, TX, that poster explained that those weren’t *elementary* schools.

Don't you know that Joe Biden is responsible for everything that happens? I got bitten by a horsefly yesterday, and it's way too early for horseflies. All I'm saying is, that never happened to me when Trump was president!

Thanks Obama!

[HPstache]

The Canadian government is introducing a bill to freeze handgun ownership in response to the Texas incident.

The new legislation would amend the Firearms Act to freeze the buying, selling, importing and trading of handguns nationwide. The measures stop short of banning handguns outright, allowing existing owners to keep their handguns.

Bill C-21 would also allow for the automatic removal of gun licences from people who have committed domestic violence or engaged in criminal harassment, such as stalking. And it would create a new “red flag” law that would allow courts to require that people considered a danger to themselves or others surrender their firearms to police.

And this is... a good thing?  Serious question, is this being celebrated or criticized?  All I listen to here is Canadian radio and they just mentioned it briefly followed by, "and also, now meth and heroin are legal to have in small amounts".

[GuitarStv]

The Canadian government is introducing a bill to freeze handgun ownership in response to the Texas incident.

The new legislation would amend the Firearms Act to freeze the buying, selling, importing and trading of handguns nationwide. The measures stop short of banning handguns outright, allowing existing owners to keep their handguns.

Bill C-21 would also allow for the automatic removal of gun licences from people who have committed domestic violence or engaged in criminal harassment, such as stalking. And it would create a new “red flag” law that would allow courts to require that people considered a danger to themselves or others surrender their firearms to police.

And this is... a good thing?  Serious question, is this being celebrated or criticized?  All I listen to here is Canadian radio and they just mentioned it briefly followed by, "and also, now meth and heroin are legal to have in small amounts".

Handguns don't server any purpose in society, and crazy people shouldn't have guns of any sort.  So yeah . . . it seems like a pretty good thing.

[scottish]

The Canadian government is introducing a bill to freeze handgun ownership in response to the Texas incident.

The new legislation would amend the Firearms Act to freeze the buying, selling, importing and trading of handguns nationwide. The measures stop short of banning handguns outright, allowing existing owners to keep their handguns.

Bill C-21 would also allow for the automatic removal of gun licences from people who have committed domestic violence or engaged in criminal harassment, such as stalking. And it would create a new “red flag” law that would allow courts to require that people considered a danger to themselves or others surrender their firearms to police.

And this is... a good thing?  Serious question, is this being celebrated or criticized?  All I listen to here is Canadian radio and they just mentioned it briefly followed by, "and also, now meth and heroin are legal to have in small amounts".

Handguns don't server any purpose in society, and crazy people shouldn't have guns of any sort.  So yeah . . . it seems like a pretty good thing.

Some people use handguns as sport, eg practical shooting competitions.   Good or bad depends on on your point of view.   The RCMP have stated that 75% of handgun crimes are from domestic pistols.

If this is the case, then I'd have to agree with GuitarStv.   "Law-abiding" owners are  not storing their weapons correctly and criminals are stealing them.   Or even worse, the "law-abiding" owners are the ones committing the crimes.

In either case, they've demonstrated that they aren't sufficiently responsible to have handguns.   <shrug>

[FrugalToque]

The Canadian government is introducing a bill to freeze handgun ownership in response to the Texas incident.

The new legislation would amend the Firearms Act to freeze the buying, selling, importing and trading of handguns nationwide. The measures stop short of banning handguns outright, allowing existing owners to keep their handguns.

Bill C-21 would also allow for the automatic removal of gun licences from people who have committed domestic violence or engaged in criminal harassment, such as stalking. And it would create a new “red flag” law that would allow courts to require that people considered a danger to themselves or others surrender their firearms to police.

And this is... a good thing?  Serious question, is this being celebrated or criticized?  All I listen to here is Canadian radio and they just mentioned it briefly followed by, "and also, now meth and heroin are legal to have in small amounts".

Just to be clear, certain small quantities of drugs will be legal in the province of British Columbia, under a temporary exemption, with a whole lot of monitoring in place to see how it's working out.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-decriminalize-drugs-british-columbia-canada/

B.C. hosts about 1/7 of Canada's population.  They've sort of been at the front of fentanyl deaths and other drug-related problems.

[OzzieandHarriet]

Example of someone who should have been flagged and had his guns taken away:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/02/nyregion/deliveryman-shooting-queens-arrest.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DLDm4YiOIEGYWP-kDLIqZuY9ot0i6KQdZHdaQvQ_tuz-lQelVwRgSuud6Ngo4IODlzqZ62Wil--aPxao0C0G2gaHileqA4zaejvhmCPX_uCKSL0XJ3JRJg85czaV393XcXlqnGQPoj39l8ivcrB8h9RGgQdWLd6amTfhZ4ONmMbB7X6BBnGL0KHGGOwqPPru4IYw5QClnZTXxg4Gxa6dlUPNMfPq6XPAd3MYOlwu1XUjo0Wd_vU54hRIHUlKFot6rPq3GOysmxz_Y3FMZErbRGFQARgRSFqKK3Vy9_obA&smid=url-share

[MasterStache]

Well my state is set to pass a law making it legal for teachers to carry guns with minimal training (a measly 24 hours). Have yet to find a teacher who thinks this is a good idea. I mean, let's just keep throwing more and more responsibilities at teachers but taking nothing away to ease their burdens. What could possibly go wrong?

[RetiredAt63]

Well my state is set to pass a law making it legal for teachers to carry guns with minimal training (a measly 24 hours). Have yet to find a teacher who thinks this is a good idea. I mean, let's just keep throwing more and more responsibilities at teachers but taking nothing away to ease their burdens. What could possibly go wrong?

Apart from all the other obvious disadvantages, this guarantees a shooter will go for the teachers first.  Why don't these people just buy them all the teachers shirts with big target circles front and back?  Or red shirts a la Star Trek?  We know who dies in an episode.