Author Topic: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?  (Read 5347 times)

Chris22

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2018, 09:06:07 PM »
In case you're wondering why women wouldn't be taught to do this, it's because they're on average not as tough and more likely to get hurt badly. Bone density, muscle mass, physical strength and agility, etc.

Society doesn't teach girls to fight because, as an overall zeitgeist, society prefers women more, rather than less, rapeable.

I taught my daughter to fight. She’s been schooled in the art of throat punches and groin kicks. I didn’t bring it up because a woman using violence to fend off an attacker is generally accepted in society in the way a boy punching a bully isn’t.

Chris22

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2018, 09:07:49 PM »

Boys tend to gravitate to "boy toys" and girls to "girl toys".  That you were an anomaly doesn't invalidate it.

It's impossible to test this in a vacuum though. People exist within society.  From VERY early boys and girls learn where their interests are supposed to lie. That may or may not be why they gravitate to them.

I dunno. My daughter was 4 months old and never had been around anyone for any length of time except my wife and I and threw the hot wheels away I kept pushing on her but cuddled her dolls.

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2018, 09:09:17 PM »
Quote
When we started having kids, I suggested to my husband that boys get his last name, and girls get my last name. He was basically cool with it but my mother got really angry!  In the end I went with the flow because I reckoned it would be easier for the kids to feel like a family unit that way.

One of my kids has my last name, the other has my spouse’s. They each have the other last name as a middle name. It’s fine. People figure out the deal real quick and I’ve never had anyone say anything judgmental to me about it. Certainly my MIL wanted to, but she knows better than to broach it with me.

We did the same thing -- boys got my last name, girls got my wife's last name. (In the event we had one of each.) Middle name is the other last name. Everybody seems perfectly happy.

Cressida

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2018, 09:34:55 PM »
We did the same thing -- boys got my last name, girls got my wife's last name.


My kids all have my wife's name. We thought it was a cooler name. Who cares?


Wow, salutes all around today. I'm pleasantly surprised.

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2018, 03:54:36 AM »
I had a boy from my previous marriage and it was 15 years before I was remarried and starting a new family so I initially thought to myself I have a son be nice to have a girl. Well our first was a boy and when he came out healthy I was happy and teared up like a baby. Then we had a daughter and then two more boys. I dont think there is any wrong with wanting one or another but most people, at least in my case, are just happy to have them healthy and for them to be happy when the grow up. I didnt need to teach my daughter how to fight I saw that came up because 1) she has 3 brothers and 2) she is 6'2 and would knock the shit out of most people. When she was in HS I had a parent thank us for her protecting another girl from being bullied. And my daughter didnt grow up playing with dolls and all that but is as femininent as any girls for those that worry about that. End of day if you teach them good family values and how to behave chances (not always) you will enjoy them and have a special bond with each one in away that there sex didn't matter. I get the name thing to carry it on and I thought too of that. I am sure my daughter is the type that would of said I will carry the family name but I would of said thats nice and sweet but carry your husbands. So imo its okay to Want or wish whatever you want to say BUT sex doesnt matter. Kids all have there own little different personalities and I couldnt imagine my life being different thats really all i can say.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2018, 06:25:32 AM »

Boys tend to gravitate to "boy toys" and girls to "girl toys".  That you were an anomaly doesn't invalidate it.

It's impossible to test this in a vacuum though. People exist within society.  From VERY early boys and girls learn where their interests are supposed to lie. That may or may not be why they gravitate to them.

I dunno. My daughter was 4 months old and never had been around anyone for any length of time except my wife and I and threw the hot wheels away I kept pushing on her but cuddled her dolls.

So you have a single data point.
Also hot wheels at 4 months? What's a 4 month old going to do with hot wheels except throw them? (And throwing at 4 months is pretty advanced. Kudos.)

There have been studies that show that parents treat their very young infants differently based on gender, just in how they let them explore the world around them. Girls are much more likely to be told "be careful" when learning to crawl or walk.


I have no doubt there are differences in the sexes; in almost every species the male is generally the stronger sex, for instance.  But MUCH of what we think of as stereotypical behavior has explanation in "nurture". 

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 08:08:11 AM by I'm a red panda »

GuitarStv

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2018, 07:54:50 AM »
@Chris22
Bingo!!  you nailed it.  To see proof of stereotypical behaviour all you have to do is spend some time at the park or in a classroom...there is a reason stereotypes exist - some accurate, some not so much.
It makes me nuts when people say women and men are the same.  Seriously?  Are women as smart and capable as men?  Of course.  But to say that the average woman is as physically strong as the average man is BS.  Just not accurate. 
The real issue I have with trying to force kids to act in ways outside of their 'typical' gender is that it may make boys who are very boyish feel that something is wrong with them or girls who are very girlish think they are 'failures' because they actually like pink and make up. Who cares as long as they are not hurting anyone.  Walk into any elementary school and you will see that the vast majority of kids with 'ants in their pants' are boys.  It just is.
I know people who won't buy their daughters princess dresses - why not if that is what she wants and if the next day she wants to wear a bowl on her head to play astronaut, that's great get her one. Or your son wants to do girly things, let it be.  Most are phases and if not then they will carry on anyway.
 I let my kids play with whatever toys they wanted and how they wanted (I like legos and other toys that encourage imagination) and they did many typically male/female things...but not always and I just let it be.
But that's the problem. You are labelling a thing or activity as male or female when its neither - its just a thing or activity. Once you stop assigning gender labels to inanimate objects, activities and jobs then you take away the feelings of failure for not behaving gender appropriate ways then kids (and adults) just do what they enjoy without feeling shame. I'm a woman who rode her motorcycle to work, spent her work days wrenching giant diesel engines amongst other similar "man jobs" but who felt equally comfortable in a pink silk dress, high heels, make up and jewelry, curling the waist length hair and going out with men. People of any gender can like multiple things and once we quit boxing people into gender stereotypes by labelling everything boy or girl/male or female, then we remove any shame, discomfort or feeling of failure for not conforming to social gender stereotypes.

I've been made to felt uncomfortable wearing a pink dress . . . because socially that's unacceptable.  Even though my shaved legs are super sexy.  :P

Grog

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2018, 08:34:15 AM »
Two daughters, we are not even married (is fading away as tradition in Europe), I could have given my name but we went with my partner/gf name.
Reason? Purely a practical one:she works part time and having the same name may slightly simplify some burocratic processes. For instance if you have the same name and live in the same place you can pick up packages from a post station with nobody batting an eye. If you come as a mother with a different name, you need to bring some kind of proof that you are actually living in the same place. Small things.

Activities are gender less. One of the thing you need to do is to get interested in what interest your child. You can't expect to transmit 100% of you passions to your children. That would be creepy. You have friends and maybe other family member to share common passions. With your children find some middle ground and common activities to enjoy time together, independent from gender. Don't push your passion on another person. You don't share 100% of passions with your SO, and you could pick her/him! You don't pick, but can influence, what interest your children.

Just break away from this gender/name things. So middle age.

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2018, 09:33:54 AM »
Evidence that boys naturally like trucks and girls like dolls though, doesn't exist to my knowledge.  There is an awful lot of evidence that we have a tendency to push boys and girls into particular roles because of our expectations.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

I'm a red panda

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2018, 10:10:48 AM »
Evidence that boys naturally like trucks and girls like dolls though, doesn't exist to my knowledge.  There is an awful lot of evidence that we have a tendency to push boys and girls into particular roles because of our expectations.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Interesting that the girls played with both equally. 

What role do male rhesus monkeys play in child-rearing compared to human men?

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2018, 10:54:21 AM »
Even if you accept the idea that kids tend to cluster around certain behaviors around gender, it doesn't matter in a given family because individual kids aren't predictable--they may or may not embrace the activities and preferences that are traditionally associated with their gender.

In our family, I have two SIL with daughters. SIL #1 was delighted to find she was having a girl because her older child is a boy who does happen to like traditional boy things (trains/Hot Wheels/sports) and she was excited to have to opportunity to do some of the "girl" things she remembered from her childhood. Guess whose daughter rejected all that in favor of idolizing her big brother and adopting all his preferences? Meanwhile SIL #2 was excited to raise a daughter free of gender traditions and prejudices to the extent that her daughter did not have a single pink outfit when she arrived home from the hospital...and ended up with a house encrusted with glitter, unicorns and princess dresses. It works out--Auntie #1 gets to buy all the pink and purple stuff for Girl #2 that her mom doesn't like, and Auntie #2 is great at finding the simple and comfortable clothes that Girl#1 likes.

Cressida

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2018, 11:02:02 AM »
Evidence that boys naturally like trucks and girls like dolls though, doesn't exist to my knowledge.  There is an awful lot of evidence that we have a tendency to push boys and girls into particular roles because of our expectations.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/


Conclusion not supported by the evidence. From Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender:

Quote
However, Hines has argued that this can’t be the whole answer to gender differences in toy preferences. This is because, remarkably, similar sex differences in toy preference are also seen in monkeys. In a study with Gerianne Alexander, Hines put six toys, one at a time, into a large enclosure of vervet monkeys. There were two boyish toys (a police car and a ball), two girlish toys (a doll and a pan) and two neutral toys (a picture book and a stuffed dog). They measured how long each monkey spent with each toy, as a percentage of total toy-contact time. Both male and female vervets spent about a third of the total time with the neutral toys. Male vervets spent about another third each of their total playing time with the other toys. By contrast, females spent more time with the girlish toys than with the boyish toys. If, by the way, you are curious about the choice of a pan as a girlish toy, you are not alone. Although it is true that primatologists regularly uncover hitherto unknown skills in our nonhuman cousins, the art of heated cuisine is not yet one of them. Frances Burton has informed me that, in her long career of observing monkeys, she has never met one that could cook. (This raises the more general point, spontaneously made by more than one of the academics who read this chapter, that it is not at all clear that a toy taken from human culture has the same meaning to a monkey, to which it is unfamiliar, that it does to a child.) It’s worth noting, then, that when the researchers divided up their stimuli in a different way – comparing amount of play with animate toys (the dog and the doll) with object toys (the pan, ball, car, and book) – they found no differences between the sexes.

After an interval of about six years, a second group of researchers ran another toy-preference study with rhesus monkeys. This study was different in two important ways. First of all, trying to get to the bottom of why there are gender differences in toy preference, they compared wheeled toys that invite movement with stuffed-animal toys that supposedly invite nurturing. (Whether or not the stuffed animals were actually nurtured is unclear, especially as one trial had to be terminated early when ‘a plush toy was torn into multiple pieces’.) Second, the researchers gave monkeys an outright choice between the two types of toy – one of each was put into the enclosure at the same time, which is a better test of preference. They found that females were as interested in wheeled toys as they were in plush ones, and played no less with wheeled toys than did male monkeys. However, unlike females, male monkeys had a preference for wheeled toys over plush ones.

What are we to make of the subtle sex differences seen in these two slightly contradictory studies? (Which doesn’t seem like quite large enough a number on which to base any terribly firm conclusions about human nature.) One reasonable summary might be that male and female monkeys alike enjoy playing with both stuffed toys and mobile objects, but that in males the cuddly dolls have less of a shine than the mobile toys. Just to confuse matters, stuffed toys don’t seem to be disfavoured by either vervet males or boys.) What does this mean for humans, and the toys played with by little boys and girls?

These two studies have been taken as strengthening the evidence of ‘inborn influences on sextyped toy preferences’, support for the idea that ‘biologically based sex differences in activity preferences significantly influence sex differences in childhood object choice’, and ‘another nail in the coffin for the idea that similar preferences in human children are entirely due to culture’. Yet can we safely move to the conclusion that the higher levels of prenatal testosterone normally seen only in males increases interest in boyish toys that move or stimulate visuospatial skills, and reduces interest in toys related to babies and nurturing? These are two separate effects that are hard to disentangle when you compare interest in a moveable boyish toy relative to interest in a nurtureable girlish toy. Although male rhesus monkeys preferred the wheeled toys over the plush ones, because there was no gender-neutral toy condition we don’t really know whether rhesus males were especially drawn to the wheeled toys or simply less interested in the plush animals. After all, in the first monkey study male vervets spent no longer with the moveable ball and car than with the neutral toys or the girlish toys. So neither monkey study does a convincing job of showing that male monkeys are born with a built-in interest in objects that move. Researchers need to get more specific about what particular feature of boyish toys supposedly appeals to the male brain, and then see whether male monkeys more than females prefer novel toys that do have this feature over other equally novel toys that don’t.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 11:04:12 AM by Cressida »

Margie

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2018, 12:20:36 PM »
@spartana
I can totally see your point and agree somewhat.  I still do think there are many things that we will never be able to "nurture" away.  With the current climate of anything 'masculine" must be bad we are making the world a very strange place for young boys.  They learn pretty early in school that boys get sent to the "time out" spot more often then girls.  I was startled when I spent time in my children's elementary school.  The difference was stark and hardly any men teaching at the elementary level meant the boys were surrounded by women.   All day for years.

I do NOT like all the programming for girls only.  (even though my daughter will benefit from some of it).  We have a university here (well known internationally for its math program) and they hold many "girls only" events.  That's great if you're a girl but what if you are a boy?  Too bad. 

I would rather schools focus their programs on anyone who shows an interest.  If the class is 50/50 or 60/40 or 90/10 that's fine.  Just keep them engaged and trying new things. 

One day it might be that we all identify as X and no one says boo about it...I imagine that'll take a few generations though.

dcozad999

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2018, 12:21:38 PM »
I was lucky enough to have a boy and a girl. Though my primary wish was for a healthy baby,  I was 60% leaning toward wanting a second son.  I thought it would be cooler for the oldest to have a little brother. Plus as a man, I knew about the trials and tribulations of being a boy. My knowledge of girls was pretty non-existent.

But we were blessed with a healthy baby girl. And in the last 2.5 yrs of raising her I've come to the realization that having a daughter is freaking AWESOME! Every experience and milestone is brand new. And she loves to cuddle with her old man. 

rocketpj

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2018, 12:22:44 PM »
I wasn't too bothered about whose last name they would get, I was thinking boys take mine, girls take their mom's. 

My wife was actually in favour of them all taking my name - hers is from her stepfather and has very little history attached (her step-grandfather is as far back as anyone knows the history).  My name and family tree goes back about 800 years, good and bad.  None of that is any reflection on me, but it is interesting to read about ancestors in history books.

As it turned out we had two boys so we both got our way, they both have my name.  Honestly, we could have named them anything, they would still be my kids.

As for gender, I was never attached to any particular outcome.  After the second one I was only attached to not having any more.

rocketpj

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2018, 12:27:52 PM »
We can't control the societal expectations that happen outside the home.  What we can do is make it clear to our kids that they can and should engage with whatever interests them.

I never, not for one second, expected to have high level athletic boys in my house.  I certainly didn't play team sports, and my wife didn't either.  For that matter I didn't expect kids who are sporty, good at math, popular and socially adept.  I have literally no lived experience on how to help them navigate the world with that set of skills, being almost the opposite in every respect.

dcozad999

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2018, 12:31:16 PM »
We did the same thing -- boys got my last name, girls got my wife's last name.


My kids all have my wife's name. We thought it was a cooler name. Who cares?


My wife is Hispanic, and we gave our kids Hispanic first and middle names, and then my last name. I thought that was a great way to do it, but the last few years I've kind of regretted not giving them both last names they way they do it in pretty much every latin country. Right now they are 2 and 7 year old. Do you think it would be worth changing? Or just too confusing all around?



Wow, salutes all around today. I'm pleasantly surprised.

dcozad999

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2018, 12:33:10 PM »
After the second one I was only attached to not having any more.

Lol. Right there with you. Got snipped a few months after the 2nd one.

Chris22

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2018, 12:39:17 PM »
After the second one I was only attached to not having any more.

Lol. Right there with you. Got snipped a few months after the 2nd one.

Likewise.  I am not a baby person.  Love my kids, don't love having babies.  Younger one (18 mos) is just starting to get fun.

Polaria

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2018, 01:05:36 PM »
Evidence that boys naturally like trucks and girls like dolls though, doesn't exist to my knowledge.  There is an awful lot of evidence that we have a tendency to push boys and girls into particular roles because of our expectations.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/
Conclusion not supported by the evidence. From Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender: [...].
I only wanted to mention that interesting studies have been performed, that were somehow related to GuitarStv’s comment. People can expand their reading from there. I am not interested in starting a debate.

charis

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2018, 02:15:00 PM »
Why does everyone always jump to the "treating boys and girls like they are the same" line.  No one is saying or has said that boys and girls are the same.  In fact, the whole point is that no one is "the same." 

I've tried to parent in a gender-neutral way.  That does not mean discouraging an affinity toward stereotypical toys and activities.  It means less labels and embracing the whole kid, whether it's a princess loving girl or princess loving boy. 

Also, masculinity is not under attack.  Quite the opposite.  When my son was 3, he told me, out of the blue and somewhat distressed, that a boy couldn't wear a dress outside because people would laugh.  At 3. 

And as a parent, you are torn between wanting your child to be able to express his or her true self and the pain of knowing that someone might laugh, or do worse.

GuitarStv

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2018, 02:26:17 PM »
Also, masculinity is not under attack.  Quite the opposite.  When my son was 3, he told me, out of the blue and somewhat distressed, that a boy couldn't wear a dress outside because people would laugh.  At 3.


There is a particular type of toxic masculinity that is under attack.  The kind of guy who doesn't stop when a woman says 'No', who is homophobic/transphobic, who sees his fists as the best way to solve a problem, who is uncomfortable when a woman in the room is smarter or better at his job, or who thinks that a woman needs to be protected and coddled, believes that looking after a child/cooking/doing dishes is women's work . . . this kind of man is under attack.  If these are traits that you find endearing or masculine, you're going to see the modern world as very unaccommodating for men.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 02:39:11 PM by GuitarStv »

charis

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2018, 03:09:29 PM »
Also, masculinity is not under attack.  Quite the opposite.  When my son was 3, he told me, out of the blue and somewhat distressed, that a boy couldn't wear a dress outside because people would laugh.  At 3.


There is a particular type of toxic masculinity that is under attack.  The kind of guy who doesn't stop when a woman says 'No', who is homophobic/transphobic, who sees his fists as the best way to solve a problem, who is uncomfortable when a woman in the room is smarter or better at his job, or who thinks that a woman needs to be protected and coddled, believes that looking after a child/cooking/doing dishes is women's work . . . this kind of man is under attack.  If these are traits that you find endearing or masculine, you're going to see the modern world as very unaccommodating for men.

Not sure how my post in particular lead to this response.  I was referring to a prior post in which a poster suggested that male children are overly punished for their masculine traits.

Cressida

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2018, 09:00:59 PM »
We did the same thing -- boys got my last name, girls got my wife's last name.


My kids all have my wife's name. We thought it was a cooler name. Who cares?


Wow, salutes all around today. I'm pleasantly surprised.

My wife is Hispanic, and we gave our kids Hispanic first and middle names, and then my last name. I thought that was a great way to do it, but the last few years I've kind of regretted not giving them both last names they way they do it in pretty much every latin country. Right now they are 2 and 7 year old. Do you think it would be worth changing? Or just too confusing all around?

First: I don't mean to imply that assigning the mother's last name to a child is an inherent good. I do mean that I appreciate when people in our current society do it, because there's no reason why taking the father's last name should be the default (as it currently is), so every person who bucks the trend should eventually lead to more fairness.

That out of the way: I'll go on record as supporting the Spanish (and other Hispanic countries') approach. For those who don't know: It means that every person has two last names; first their father's father's last name, and second their mother's father's last name.

For example: Take the renowned Spanish tenor Plácido Domingo. His father's name was Plácido Domingo Ferrer, where "Domingo" came from his father and "Ferrer" from his mother. His mother's name was Josefa Embil Echániz, where "Embil" came from her father and "Echániz" from her mother. So the tenor's full name is José Plácido Domingo Embil.* In everyday usage, the second name often gets dropped, but it's legally there.

I like this solution because (1) it removes the pressure on women to take their husband's name to feel like part of the family, because there's a sharing of names between both parents and the child and (2) the fact that everyday usage favors the father's name would help ease the transition from our current patriarchal system.

It will never happen, of course, but I'd be on board if it did.


*I don't know why he goes by his middle name, but it doesn't matter for our purposes.




Freedom2016

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2018, 07:16:25 AM »
This article seems on point -

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/its-a-boy-its-a-girl-for-some-parents-learning-their-babys-sex-is-a-disappointment/2018/12/12/8aef32c0-f8be-11e8-8d64-4e79db33382f_story.html?utm_term=.91579e1c94e6

Best comment on the article:

Quote
To the Gender Disappointed: You’ve just had Lesson #1 in realizing how little interest your children have in fulfilling your fantasies. It won’t be the last.

LOL

Our son loves dresses, My Little Pony, and all things pink or sparkly or rainbow or hearts. He also loves to build projects out of all manner of materials - he's a little McGyver-like in that sense. Zero interest in sports, Star Wars, action figures, etc.

Our daughter is a little more 'stereotypically' girly in what she likes. And she shows just as much independent stubbornness as her brother.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 07:21:58 AM by Freedom2016 »

Margie

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2018, 08:19:48 AM »
@GuitarStv
You are definitely right about that 'type' of man being under attack and I do think obviously those behaviours are horrendous and need to be hopefully ended with this generation.  However, I do think it is difficult for boys to find their place....they are receiving mixed messages from media, society, school...to say otherwise is really not accurate.  In the tech program at my son's HS, they are actively trying to get girls in it.  That's great although they make NO effort to get the boys into the cosmetology classes.  Seriously.  It makes me delirious.  I just wish it was all based on interest and ability and I say this as a mother of both sexes, both of whom are reasonably smart (honours) and active.
Anyhow, we have probably over thought/talked this through and I do hope everyone does as well as they can given the options they have available to them.

lemonlyman

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2018, 08:44:34 AM »
With my first child, I didn't care about the sex. Turned out to be a girl. When my wife got pregnant with our second, I wanted another girl because my first is so awesome. Turned out to be a boy. Feel silly about wanting another girl because he's also great. Though after I did have a son, I noticed I had a latent desire to have one. Not for myself, but so my Dad could have a grandson which is its own kind of crazy. So I'm going to provide some hints through my son's life that I don't need a grandson nor do I care about my surname being passed on. Just let my kids know to live a good life on their terms.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 08:46:14 AM by lemonlyman »

J Boogie

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2018, 08:52:31 AM »
@GuitarStv
In the tech program at my son's HS, they are actively trying to get girls in it.  That's great although they make NO effort to get the boys into the cosmetology classes. 

I can't blame them. In a free market you'll see engineers getting paid more than beauticians (and for good reason, though there is a different argument to be made in terms of pay for other female dominated professions such as elementary school teachers and nurses, as these are/should be public services).

No doubt part of their goal isn't just to get girls interested in these fields because they're fun and overwhelmingly male, it's because they're lucrative. It corresponds to society's desire for women to be as economically powerful as men.


partgypsy

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2018, 09:24:45 AM »
@GuitarStv
In the tech program at my son's HS, they are actively trying to get girls in it.  That's great although they make NO effort to get the boys into the cosmetology classes. 

I can't blame them. In a free market you'll see engineers getting paid more than beauticians (and for good reason, though there is a different argument to be made in terms of pay for other female dominated professions such as elementary school teachers and nurses, as these are/should be public services).

No doubt part of their goal isn't just to get girls interested in these fields because they're fun and overwhelmingly male, it's because they're lucrative. It corresponds to society's desire for women to be as economically powerful as men.

Yes, that's true. When I was growing up, in my personal experience it was the males who were encouraged in science and math classes while females were ignored, and even discouraged in various ways. And having a strong science and math background is the entryway to a number of decent paying professions. If a boy did want to join a cosmetology class (we don't have those in the HS here?) I don't think they would be prohibited, though their parents might discourage them. fun fact: 20 years ago my brother took both shop AND home ec including a sewing class. He never complained of flack for doing it. On the contrary he used the skills to make custom camo and winter wear he sold as a cottage business.   

The man who cuts my hair is very good. He tried to get his daughter into the profession, because in fact there are some areas of cosmetology you CAN make a good income (and to tell the truth most hair treatments and coloring does involve chemistry and math)  But, not interested because more jobs she can make just as good of a living, without all the training involved.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 09:30:49 AM by partgypsy »

mm1970

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2018, 02:29:16 PM »
I have two boys.  I love my two boys.  I'm an ex-Navy female engineer, so I get along well with my boys.

I've had the random thought that it would be nice to raise a "strong woman", but ya know, I get the chance to raise decent boys. 

All kids are individuals anyway.

FIRE Artist

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2018, 02:39:08 PM »
Even if you had a son, that doesn’t guarantee that he will carry on the family name further than that.  Seems a silly thing to focus on.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2018, 02:43:01 PM »
My husband is the only boy out of 4 kids.  His dad was a real working class man's man - into fishing, fixing up cars and puttering around in boats.  My husband was a huge disappointment to him because he hates fishing, cars and boats and basically spend his entire childhood in the library reading books.  He ended up being the first person in his family to go to university, where he studied literature.  His father never forgave him.  I think the pressure on him to have the same interests as his father was so intense because he was the only boy and when he turned out not to have the same interests his dad was just so disappointed.  His sisters didn't have this pressure so they had a much better relationship with both parents.


Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is an individual and just because a kid is the same sex as you doesn't mean s/he is necessarily going to share your interests or personality.  And that's too much pressure to put on a kid anyway.

Cassie

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2018, 02:45:57 PM »
My dad loved to hunt, fish and take the dogs for long walks. My brother had no interest in this but I did so I ended up being his boy . The family laughed about it but no one really cared.  It didn’t hurt any of the relationships.

wenchsenior

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2018, 03:18:53 PM »
Even if you had a son, that doesn’t guarantee that he will carry on the family name further than that.  Seems a silly thing to focus on.

Absolutely.  I have 2 sisters and no brothers. But even if my father had assumed that we 3 daughters would want to pass on his family name to our kids (which would have been a reasonable expectation IMO), none of us had kids.  No reason to expect any kids the OP might have (or their partners) will want, or be able, to have children. I believe the stat is that ~30% of women are childless/free in the U.S.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2018, 03:23:21 PM »
Girls can do everything boys can but backwards and in heels. Don't worry about it. Having daughters is great.

golden1

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2018, 05:20:32 PM »
I’m still laughing at the poster who gave his baby a hot wheels (made of metal) and a doll (presumably made of cloth and plastic) and then was surprised when they preferred the doll.  And then implied that this was innate gender preference.

That is some funny shit. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2018, 06:00:16 PM »
I’m still laughing at the poster who gave his baby a hot wheels (made of metal) and a doll (presumably made of cloth and plastic) and then was surprised when they preferred the doll.  And then implied that this was innate gender preference.

That is some funny shit.

Especially when babies are know to preferentially orient to anything face-like.   Harlow's monkeys (poor things) of both sexes preferred the terry-cloth "mother".

charis

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2018, 09:02:46 PM »
I’m still laughing at the poster who gave his baby a hot wheels (made of metal) and a doll (presumably made of cloth and plastic) and then was surprised when they preferred the doll.  And then implied that this was innate gender preference.

That is some funny shit.

Especially when babies are know to preferentially orient to anything face-like.   Harlow's monkeys (poor things) of both sexes preferred the terry-cloth "mother".

Yep. My daughter asked for a toy car and a ball the first time she could articulate the request for presents. My son distinctly liked cars, dresses, the color pink, all sports, and ballet shoes/dancing from a young age on up. I wonder what it all means.

I'd also like to point out that my daughter had dresses in her closet from infancy and my son had pants, no dresses. They didn't ask for those items, we put them there. Signifing their gender and our expectations. They understand this.

Obviously it's all anecdotal. But nonetheless

partgypsy

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2018, 07:41:09 AM »
In case you're wondering why women wouldn't be taught to do this, it's because they're on average not as tough and more likely to get hurt badly. Bone density, muscle mass, physical strength and agility, etc.

Society doesn't teach girls to fight because, as an overall zeitgeist, society prefers women more, rather than less, rapeable.

I taught my daughter to fight. She’s been schooled in the art of throat punches and groin kicks. I didn’t bring it up because a woman using violence to fend off an attacker is generally accepted in society in the way a boy punching a bully isn’t.

I remember going through with my two girls what to do if someone broke into the house (run to a neighbors house and have them call police) and while my older one started saying the correct answer my youngest immediately said "kick them in the wee wee!" Since she was little she loves play fighting and is drawn to the plastic swords in the dollar store. She's taken karate classes, got a speed punching bag for her birthday (her request), and is getting a drum kit for christmas.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 07:42:49 AM by partgypsy »

JanetJackson

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2018, 08:16:54 AM »
A woman can keep her family name when marrying . . . so there's no real need to be concerned about that.

I don't want to leave this decision up to a daughter and SIL. Why bank on that?? No thanks. Much rather try for a boy on my own instead of punting the matter 20+ years down the road onto a whole host of unknown factors. Who knows, daughters may not even want kids (like my gay sis, the only under-60 person with the same last name as me). Of course, a son could feel the same and not want kids either. However, I'll get the feeling and satisfaction of having done what I can do, at least.

I would feel weird if my wife kept her name, so I don't think it's fair to expect my hypothetical daughter to keep it either. I guess I'm traditional that way, ridicule me if you must.

Of course, I agree with everyone else that the health of the family and the individual son/daughter is what's most important.

Maybe I'll feel like Capt if it turns out that way.

You're either leaving the choice up to a son and daughter in law, or a daughter and son in law.  I guess I don't really see the difference.

I have to say that I agree with you @GuitarStv.  The name thing seems strange to me.  Also, I know several people who had same sex marriages and combined both of their last names, or one chose the other male's last name... so that kind of puts that idea out the window.  I also know M+F couple who took the females last name.  I think that tradition, unless actively enforced upon children via upbringing, is kind of fading.

Just Joe

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2018, 08:17:42 AM »
Be happy if they are happy, healthy and intelligent (and motivated). We had two of the same gender, I would have been pleased to have one of each gender for the experience of raising one of each. However, we're pleased as can be with how things have worked out. If we can get them through some training and gainfully employed ("launched") it'll all be good.

The first one is taking the same round about path to adulthood as I did so I can't complain. That means several years of crap jobs before the revelation that more money, more autonomy, more flexibility is important and what does it take to get a job like that? Second one is watching the first one and learning from the first one's mistakes I think.

Yesterday was a Norman Rockwell / Mayberry RFD day. Everyone was home, everyone was happy and content, good food, lots of doing whatever we wanted to do (TV, video games, playing with the critters, reading, etc). Days like that are fewer and fewer now with jobs and dating and what have you.

Edited for clarity..
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 02:56:01 PM by Just Joe »

MicroRN

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2018, 08:19:36 AM »
A woman can keep her family name when marrying . . . so there's no real need to be concerned about that.

I don't want to leave this decision up to a daughter and SIL. Why bank on that?? No thanks. Much rather try for a boy on my own instead of punting the matter 20+ years down the road onto a whole host of unknown factors. Who knows, daughters may not even want kids (like my gay sis, the only under-60 person with the same last name as me). Of course, a son could feel the same and not want kids either. However, I'll get the feeling and satisfaction of having done what I can do, at least.

I would feel weird if my wife kept her name, so I don't think it's fair to expect my hypothetical daughter to keep it either. I guess I'm traditional that way, ridicule me if you must.

Of course, I agree with everyone else that the health of the family and the individual son/daughter is what's most important.

Maybe I'll feel like Capt if it turns out that way.

You're either leaving the choice up to a son and daughter in law, or a daughter and son in law.  I guess I don't really see the difference.

Or your son might change his name.   My husband did, much to his family's chagrin.

GuitarStv

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2018, 08:28:28 AM »
A woman can keep her family name when marrying . . . so there's no real need to be concerned about that.

I don't want to leave this decision up to a daughter and SIL. Why bank on that?? No thanks. Much rather try for a boy on my own instead of punting the matter 20+ years down the road onto a whole host of unknown factors. Who knows, daughters may not even want kids (like my gay sis, the only under-60 person with the same last name as me). Of course, a son could feel the same and not want kids either. However, I'll get the feeling and satisfaction of having done what I can do, at least.

I would feel weird if my wife kept her name, so I don't think it's fair to expect my hypothetical daughter to keep it either. I guess I'm traditional that way, ridicule me if you must.

Of course, I agree with everyone else that the health of the family and the individual son/daughter is what's most important.

Maybe I'll feel like Capt if it turns out that way.

You're either leaving the choice up to a son and daughter in law, or a daughter and son in law.  I guess I don't really see the difference.

Or your son might change his name.   My husband did, much to his family's chagrin.

I considered changing my last name when getting married, simply because my wife's name is shorter but it ended up sounding like it was going to be too much hassle getting a new passport, driver's license, bank cards, library cards, etc.  (Also, my family ditched our real last name and randomly picked what they thought was an English sounding one when they came over from Poland a couple generations back . . . so maybe we're just not overly sentimental about last names.)

mm1970

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2018, 11:34:14 AM »
@Chris22
Bingo!!  you nailed it.  To see proof of stereotypical behaviour all you have to do is spend some time at the park or in a classroom...there is a reason stereotypes exist - some accurate, some not so much.
It makes me nuts when people say women and men are the same.  Seriously?  Are women as smart and capable as men?  Of course.  But to say that the average woman is as physically strong as the average man is BS.  Just not accurate. 
The real issue I have with trying to force kids to act in ways outside of their 'typical' gender is that it may make boys who are very boyish feel that something is wrong with them or girls who are very girlish think they are 'failures' because they actually like pink and make up. Who cares as long as they are not hurting anyone.  Walk into any elementary school and you will see that the vast majority of kids with 'ants in their pants' are boys.  It just is.
I know people who won't buy their daughters princess dresses - why not if that is what she wants and if the next day she wants to wear a bowl on her head to play astronaut, that's great get her one. Or your son wants to do girly things, let it be.  Most are phases and if not then they will carry on anyway.
 I let my kids play with whatever toys they wanted and how they wanted (I like legos and other toys that encourage imagination) and they did many typically male/female things...but not always and I just let it be.
But that's the problem. You are labelling a thing or activity as male or female when its neither - its just a thing or activity. Once you stop assigning gender labels to inanimate objects, activities and jobs then you take away the feelings of failure for not behaving gender appropriate ways then kids (and adults) just do what they enjoy without feeling shame. I'm a woman who rode her motorcycle to work, spent her work days wrenching giant diesel engines amongst other similar "man jobs" but who felt equally comfortable in a pink silk dress, high heels, make up and jewelry, curling the waist length hair and going out with men. People of any gender can like multiple things and once we quit boxing people into gender stereotypes by labelling everything boy or girl/male or female, then we remove any shame, discomfort or feeling of failure for not conforming to social gender stereotypes.
Yep.  It makes me a bit sad.  I went to my spouse's holiday party this weekend, so I dug out the nail polish.  You see, I paint my nails 2x a year for fun.  At the beginning of summer (toes), and for the holiday party.  (Also toes usually, but I tossed the sandals and now have close toed shoes.  So I went with fingers.)  My 6 yo son was SO excited for me to paint his nails.  Because it's colorful!  He went with burgundy.  I went with turquoise.  But he made us take it off a few hours later, because he didn't want to be "girly". 

TrudgingAlong

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2018, 12:28:29 PM »
@Chris22
Bingo!!  you nailed it.  To see proof of stereotypical behaviour all you have to do is spend some time at the park or in a classroom...there is a reason stereotypes exist - some accurate, some not so much.
It makes me nuts when people say women and men are the same.  Seriously?  Are women as smart and capable as men?  Of course.  But to say that the average woman is as physically strong as the average man is BS.  Just not accurate. 
The real issue I have with trying to force kids to act in ways outside of their 'typical' gender is that it may make boys who are very boyish feel that something is wrong with them or girls who are very girlish think they are 'failures' because they actually like pink and make up. Who cares as long as they are not hurting anyone.  Walk into any elementary school and you will see that the vast majority of kids with 'ants in their pants' are boys.  It just is.
I know people who won't buy their daughters princess dresses - why not if that is what she wants and if the next day she wants to wear a bowl on her head to play astronaut, that's great get her one. Or your son wants to do girly things, let it be.  Most are phases and if not then they will carry on anyway.
 I let my kids play with whatever toys they wanted and how they wanted (I like legos and other toys that encourage imagination) and they did many typically male/female things...but not always and I just let it be.
But that's the problem. You are labelling a thing or activity as male or female when its neither - its just a thing or activity. Once you stop assigning gender labels to inanimate objects, activities and jobs then you take away the feelings of failure for not behaving gender appropriate ways then kids (and adults) just do what they enjoy without feeling shame. I'm a woman who rode her motorcycle to work, spent her work days wrenching giant diesel engines amongst other similar "man jobs" but who felt equally comfortable in a pink silk dress, high heels, make up and jewelry, curling the waist length hair and going out with men. People of any gender can like multiple things and once we quit boxing people into gender stereotypes by labelling everything boy or girl/male or female, then we remove any shame, discomfort or feeling of failure for not conforming to social gender stereotypes.
Yep.  It makes me a bit sad.  I went to my spouse's holiday party this weekend, so I dug out the nail polish.  You see, I paint my nails 2x a year for fun.  At the beginning of summer (toes), and for the holiday party.  (Also toes usually, but I tossed the sandals and now have close toed shoes.  So I went with fingers.)  My 6 yo son was SO excited for me to paint his nails.  Because it's colorful!  He went with burgundy.  I went with turquoise.  But he made us take it off a few hours later, because he didn't want to be "girly".

I hate that kind of stuff. We are raising 3 boys, and don’t ascribe gender to things they like. My youngest went to kindergarten with a pink and red water bottle he didn’t bat an eye at when I brought it home. A month or so later, he’s telling us pink is a “girl” color, so he can’t like it. Because other people’s kids are reinforcing this bs, not us. Ugh...

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2018, 05:05:39 AM »
I'm one of three boys, my mum always wanted a girl, and I think it bothered her a bit, especially when my brothers or my dad and I would talk about 'stereotypically male' topics that she wasn't interested in. I've often joked that my brothers and I are the 'three failed attempts at daughters'.

We turned out fine :)

dcozad999

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2018, 08:40:14 AM »
A woman can keep her family name when marrying . . . so there's no real need to be concerned about that.

I don't want to leave this decision up to a daughter and SIL. Why bank on that?? No thanks. Much rather try for a boy on my own instead of punting the matter 20+ years down the road onto a whole host of unknown factors. Who knows, daughters may not even want kids (like my gay sis, the only under-60 person with the same last name as me). Of course, a son could feel the same and not want kids either. However, I'll get the feeling and satisfaction of having done what I can do, at least.

I would feel weird if my wife kept her name, so I don't think it's fair to expect my hypothetical daughter to keep it either. I guess I'm traditional that way, ridicule me if you must.

Of course, I agree with everyone else that the health of the family and the individual son/daughter is what's most important.

Maybe I'll feel like Capt if it turns out that way.

You're either leaving the choice up to a son and daughter in law, or a daughter and son in law.  I guess I don't really see the difference.

Or your son might change his name.   My husband did, much to his family's chagrin.

I considered changing my last name when getting married, simply because my wife's name is shorter but it ended up sounding like it was going to be too much hassle getting a new passport, driver's license, bank cards, library cards, etc.  (Also, my family ditched our real last name and randomly picked what they thought was an English sounding one when they came over from Poland a couple generations back . . . so maybe we're just not overly sentimental about last names.)


LOL. Similar situation to my mother's grandparents. When they left Poland their last name was "Djubek.: Since they arrived in the US it has been "Julik." I'm not sure if anyone knows whether they changed the name themselves, or whether it was written down wrong by immigration when they arrived. 

nnls

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2018, 04:48:37 PM »
My mother really wanted a son (actually she wanted 10 kids but she wanted her first to be a son)

She only had me (a girl) and we joke that I am the exact opposite of what she wanted (a blonde haired, blue eyed boy who was going to be good and sport and play a musical instrument) but I have turned out fine and its always been very clear that she loved me.  I assume she got over her desire for a son. Now she wants grand children and doesnt seem to care if they are boys or girls

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #98 on: December 25, 2018, 12:25:12 PM »
It's not a popular thing to say, but I think a lot of people do have secret gender longings. I was relieved when our baby was a boy. Why?
1. I struggled as a child in an all girls school. Seeing a daughter grow up (either the same or differently) would bring back memories. Having a boy makes it easier to forget that baggage.
2. Little boy clothes are super cute! I love to wear blue and stripes and grey myself so have been delighted with the clothes people have given us. We have worn matching outfits many times
3. I like lots of "man things". My bedtime reading at the moment is a book about plumbing. It IS the case that it is MORE LIKELY that a boy will want to learn about carpentry. There are lots of "boy" games I would prefer to play than "girl" games. On the other hand, I'm also going to try to share my love of cooking and sewing with him. :)
4. Teenage girls. Emotions. Social complexity. I have no skills there.
5. I think a boy would have an easier life.
5. I don't even know. Lots of people have said to me they really see me as the mother of boys. Me too. It's an emotion, not a logical thought.

Now that we have our boy (who thus far is calm and sweet and cuddly, far more than my friend's boisterous girl) I do have a preference for another boy if we were to have another one. Why?

1. The one we have is great. Let's carry on in the same vein!
2. It would make the logistics of life simpler in many small ways. Pass down clothes for longer, share a room for longer, my husband can take them into the gents as well as me taking them into the ladies when they're little, easy logistics for sex-segregated activities like scouts/guides...
3. We have another cool boy name. (But we do also have a cool girl name.)

But I well know you get what you're given and love them anyway. There are no guarantees. I think longing beforehand and regret afterwards are different beasts. I certainly have had the former. I would be gutted to have the latter and would work very hard to get rid of it and never let it be known.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Always wanted a son but only had daughters (and vice versa). Feelings fade?
« Reply #99 on: December 25, 2018, 01:23:14 PM »
I have 2 girls and it's certainly been nice for the reasons you mention, shelives.  Definitely mustachian being able to hand down clothes and the girls are really happy in their bunk bed at 7 and 10.