Addiction (split from Girlfriend Difficulties)

[frugalnacho]

MOD NOTE: This conversation was split off from this thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/girlfriend-difficulties-end-it/

I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple points.

1.  I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone.  No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave.  He needs to take accountability for his own life.  If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE.  You always have that option.

Yes, but it's important to note that the way to get people to leave is show them that they have a means of support, that they aren't to blame and that there are safe places to go where they will be respected.

Imagine that you've been abused.  You thought you were in love, you thought you were loved.  But the love of your life alienates you from your friends, one by one, then your family, one by one.  She undermines your confidence, lowers your self-esteem, picks you apart.  It's a slow, methodical and (in this case) emasculating process.  You find yourself devoid of initiative and you reach out for help.  Then the people you reach out to tell you that you aren't enough of a man ("Man up", taken literally).  How can that help?  I'm sure all of those types of posts are *meant* to be helpful, but are they, in this context?

Dude, Mr. Original Poster.  We're here to listen and we're here to help.  If we can find you a place to go, we'll do that.  You must have friends and family.  There are people who still care and will take you back and won't hold it against you.

4. Man up used in a way that he should just put up with the abuse and suffer certainly is a problem and in that context I would agree with your points.  However I don't think it is inherently sexist or bad, and certainly not in the way I used it.  When I say man up I mean take responsibility for your own life, and it's regardless of gender.  It's equally applicable to men or women.

A lot of it depends upon the context in which you've seen that phrase used in your life.  Mostly, I see it used against little boys when they cry.
"Why are you crying?  Are you a girl?" - actual quote from a male adult in his 50s to a 5-year-old.
If you'd heard "Man up" in that sort of context, could you see the damage the phrase does?  That's why I don't use the phrase and I'm very careful in raising my own sons not to use gendered insults like that.

Toque.

I don't think anyone is blaming them.  I have known a few people that were in abusive relationships, and they certainly were abused over a long period of time and had their self esteem ripped down (although I think these particular people didn't have much self esteem to start with - perhaps how they let themselves get trapped in such an abusive relationship).  They still had family and friends and plenty of support, and people urging them to leave and they chose not to.  It probably wasn't going to be easy for them to leave, but it really was that simple, but they chose to stay anyway.  I don't/can't understand their internal workings and psychology, but they had plenty of support and safe places to go, and that was definitely made known to them.  I guess I just can't relate to not taking action against such a bad situation.  I'm sure there are much worse situations than i've been exposed to though, but the OPs position didn't sound any worse than the people i've known, and it also sounds like he has the desire and initiative to break up and get out of his abusive situation.

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

[fallstoclimb]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand. 

[frugalnacho]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

[Gin1984]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

It is possible that you don't have the tendancy, that other members of your family have, or that you get addicted to other things.  For example, I have an addictive personality, but since I don't like how I feel with alcohol and am a control freak, I don't do drugs or alcohol.  However, I do have issues with video games and reading and have had to set up things to avoid getting sucked in.

[fallstoclimb]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

You might be biologically different from your family, if you've tried substances and haven't become addicted.  Addiction is most likely epigenetic and complex.  It isn't as simple as if your parents are both addicts, you will be -- although the odds are certainly high in your favor.  Or it may be a matter of time, or you may have benefitted from watching their experience and you won't let yourself become subsumed. It's really not about willpower, though.  Everyone's experience is different.  You do not have super willpower that your parents do not have -- although maybe you have learned from their mistakes. 

[frugalnacho]

It is possible that you don't have the tendancy, that other members of your family have, or that you get addicted to other things.  For example, I have an addictive personality, but since I don't like how I feel with alcohol and am a control freak, I don't do drugs or alcohol.  However, I do have issues with video games and reading and have had to set up things to avoid getting sucked in.

I tend to have an addictive personality, or maybe it's just an obsessive personality, and get totally engrossed in things I do.  When I read a book I get into it and want to finish it in one session.  When I get into video games I want to sit and play 24/7.  I am still into skyrim and am playing my 4th character, and i've probably logged over 400 hours so far. 

However I also have will power and can stop if it's going to interfere with my life in some significant way.  If my video games were causing me to not show up to work, or causing me to become financially destitute, I could and would stop.  I don't just sit there and say "oh man i'm addicted, it's not my fault i'm still playing even though I am neglecting other areas of my life".  I know damn well it's my own choice.

You might be biologically different from your family, if you've tried substances and haven't become addicted.  Addiction is most likely epigenetic and complex.  It isn't as simple as if your parents are both addicts, you will be -- although the odds are certainly high in your favor.  Or it may be a matter of time, or you may have benefitted from watching their experience and you won't let yourself become subsumed. It's really not about willpower, though.  Everyone's experience is different.  You do not have super willpower that your parents do not have -- although maybe you have learned from their mistakes.

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior. 

[studentdoc2]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

You might be biologically different from your family, if you've tried substances and haven't become addicted.  Addiction is most likely epigenetic and complex.  It isn't as simple as if your parents are both addicts, you will be -- although the odds are certainly high in your favor.  Or it may be a matter of time, or you may have benefitted from watching their experience and you won't let yourself become subsumed. It's really not about willpower, though.  Everyone's experience is different.  You do not have super willpower that your parents do not have -- although maybe you have learned from their mistakes.

Oh boy.

Speaking as a biologist and medical professional in-training who is familiar with the primary literature on the subject AND as someone who has several addicts (drugs and/or alcohol) in her social circle, I can affirm that the scientific community has clearly confirmed that there is a genetic, biological component to addiction and addictive behaviors. An addict's brain frequently responds differently to the same dose of the same substance than does a non-addict's brain on a molecular level. Given that addiction is intimately tied to the way one's body responds to a drug (for example, drugs that produce a more rapid high are generally much more addictive than drugs whose high develops over a longer period), these differences contribute strongly to whether an individual will become addicted.

However, the science does not argue that genetics is determinant. Genetics can change the way you respond to a drug or stress and can predispose you to addiction. Environmental factors can also influence genetic expression (e.g., epigenetics, as mentioned by fallstoclimb). Nor is genetic inheritance in this case determined by a single gene. Genetics and environmental factors interact in a complex way to turn the expression of genes on, off, up, down -- addiction (and virtually every other complex trait) is thus the result of many "tweaks" to a complex system.

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

[arebelspy]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

If you haven't been an addict, how can you give advice on how to stop that amounts to "just stop"?

Go get addicted to heroin, then come tell us how easy it was to quit.  But saying you've never been addicted but it's quite simple to just stop via willpower doesn't get a lot of credibility, IMO.

[frugalnacho]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

[frugalnacho]

If you haven't been an addict, how can you give advice on how to stop that amounts to "just stop"?

Go get addicted to heroin, then come tell us how easy it was to quit.  But saying you've never been addicted but it's quite simple to just stop via willpower doesn't get a lot of credibility, IMO.

Like I said i'm not, nor have I ever been an addict.  I've always stopped or curbed any behavior before it has become an addiction.  I guess i'm not qualified to give advice on how to recover or quit because I don't understand how anyone lets addiction take over their life.

[arebelspy]

If you haven't been an addict, how can you give advice on how to stop that amounts to "just stop"?

Go get addicted to heroin, then come tell us how easy it was to quit.  But saying you've never been addicted but it's quite simple to just stop via willpower doesn't get a lot of credibility, IMO.

Like I said i'm not, nor have I ever been an addict.  I've always stopped or curbed any behavior before it has become an addiction.  I guess i'm not qualified to give advice on how to recover or quit because I don't understand how anyone lets addiction take over their life.

Right.  So maybe you have some great advice on how not to become an addict.  But that doesn't help someone already in the situation.

[sheepstache]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

[frugalnacho]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

Then it's also misunderstood by every addict i've encountered.

[frugalnacho]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

If you haven't been an addict, how can you give advice on how to stop that amounts to "just stop"?

Go get addicted to heroin, then come tell us how easy it was to quit.  But saying you've never been addicted but it's quite simple to just stop via willpower doesn't get a lot of credibility, IMO.

Are all addiction counselors recovering addicts? 

[sheepstache]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

Then it's also misunderstood by every addict i've encountered.

Except that the program actually works for a lot of people and according to your logic it couldn't possibly.

[frugalnacho]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

Then it's also misunderstood by every addict i've encountered.

Except that the program actually works for a lot of people and according to your logic it couldn't possibly.

You sure about that?  Everything i've read about it makes it sound like an utter failure - on the order of 5-10% success rate.  I guess depending on what you consider acceptable that might be considered a success.   5-10% of millions of people is a lot of people, but those numbers still seem disappointingly low.

[sheepstache]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

Then it's also misunderstood by every addict i've encountered.

Except that the program actually works for a lot of people and according to your logic it couldn't possibly.

You sure about that?  Everything i've read about it makes it sound like an utter failure - on the order of 5-10% success rate.  I guess depending on what you consider acceptable that might be considered a success.   5-10% of millions of people is a lot of people, but those numbers still seem disappointingly low.

My understanding is that it works for people where other things have not worked. So, these being the more hardcore addicts, we would expect a low success rate. Is there another program that works much better?

[frugalnacho]

I'm not sure about other programs or their success rates.  But with so many members you are bound to find many that have success stories.  I would suspect that with the amount of alcoholics out there you would be bound to find many success stories of spontaneous remission.

[Gin1984]

It is possible that you don't have the tendancy, that other members of your family have, or that you get addicted to other things.  For example, I have an addictive personality, but since I don't like how I feel with alcohol and am a control freak, I don't do drugs or alcohol.  However, I do have issues with video games and reading and have had to set up things to avoid getting sucked in.

I tend to have an addictive personality, or maybe it's just an obsessive personality, and get totally engrossed in things I do.  When I read a book I get into it and want to finish it in one session.  When I get into video games I want to sit and play 24/7.  I am still into skyrim and am playing my 4th character, and i've probably logged over 400 hours so far. 

However I also have will power and can stop if it's going to interfere with my life in some significant way.  If my video games were causing me to not show up to work, or causing me to become financially destitute, I could and would stop.  I don't just sit there and say "oh man i'm addicted, it's not my fault i'm still playing even though I am neglecting other areas of my life".  I know damn well it's my own choice.

You might be biologically different from your family, if you've tried substances and haven't become addicted.  Addiction is most likely epigenetic and complex.  It isn't as simple as if your parents are both addicts, you will be -- although the odds are certainly high in your favor.  Or it may be a matter of time, or you may have benefitted from watching their experience and you won't let yourself become subsumed. It's really not about willpower, though.  Everyone's experience is different.  You do not have super willpower that your parents do not have -- although maybe you have learned from their mistakes.

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior.

That is not true.  An alcoholic is an alcoholic even when he or she stops.  And there are tests for addictive personality.  Wiki gives a nice summary.  One of my committee members does research in addiction and they work on mice.  You have to be able to quantify "addictive behaviors" for mice.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addictive_personality

[arebelspy]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

If you haven't been an addict, how can you give advice on how to stop that amounts to "just stop"?

Go get addicted to heroin, then come tell us how easy it was to quit.  But saying you've never been addicted but it's quite simple to just stop via willpower doesn't get a lot of credibility, IMO.

Are all addiction counselors recovering addicts?

Nope.  But I also don't see them offering an easy quick solution of "just stop." 

[arebelspy]

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

Wow. 

Uh, I may have to do some soul searching, because that idea makes a lot of sense to me, but there are a lot of ideas out there that seem so obviously dumb as to be laughable to me.  But I should probably reconsider.

Thanks for sharing this, sheepstache.

[frugalnacho]

It is possible that you don't have the tendancy, that other members of your family have, or that you get addicted to other things.  For example, I have an addictive personality, but since I don't like how I feel with alcohol and am a control freak, I don't do drugs or alcohol.  However, I do have issues with video games and reading and have had to set up things to avoid getting sucked in.

I tend to have an addictive personality, or maybe it's just an obsessive personality, and get totally engrossed in things I do.  When I read a book I get into it and want to finish it in one session.  When I get into video games I want to sit and play 24/7.  I am still into skyrim and am playing my 4th character, and i've probably logged over 400 hours so far. 

However I also have will power and can stop if it's going to interfere with my life in some significant way.  If my video games were causing me to not show up to work, or causing me to become financially destitute, I could and would stop.  I don't just sit there and say "oh man i'm addicted, it's not my fault i'm still playing even though I am neglecting other areas of my life".  I know damn well it's my own choice.

You might be biologically different from your family, if you've tried substances and haven't become addicted.  Addiction is most likely epigenetic and complex.  It isn't as simple as if your parents are both addicts, you will be -- although the odds are certainly high in your favor.  Or it may be a matter of time, or you may have benefitted from watching their experience and you won't let yourself become subsumed. It's really not about willpower, though.  Everyone's experience is different.  You do not have super willpower that your parents do not have -- although maybe you have learned from their mistakes.

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior.

That is not true.  An alcoholic is an alcoholic even when he or she stops.  And there are tests for addictive personality.  Wiki gives a nice summary.  One of my committee members does research in addiction and they work on mice.  You have to be able to quantify "addictive behaviors" for mice.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addictive_personality

None of the people I know that are addicts have taken any personality tests or anything to determine they are addicts.  The sole deciding factor was that they can't control themselves with this particular behavior, ergo they are addicts.

How exactly do they quantify addictive behaviors for mice?

[frugalnacho]

I find the whole situation eerily similar to debates had about drug addiction.  The advice I give is simple: stop fucking doing drugs/alcohol.  Get in rehab, reach out to friends/family if you need to, but stop doing it.  No one is forcing a bottle down your throat, or a needle in your arm, YOU are the one making that choice over and over. Predictably they get all offended and say it's not their fault, they are addicts and it's completely out of their control (which I think is bullshit).   Again, maybe I just can't relate because I won't let a substance take control over my life.  It's not that I don't understand the draw to it, i've done my fair share of drinking and drugs, I just don't understand not having any willpower and letting something control you like that.

God, I don't even know why I'm doing this right now but......are you serious?  It's extremely well established that some people are genetically predisposed to addiction.  You are probably not one of those people.  Others have been dealt a tougher hand.

I must be biologically different from my own family.

Like I said, i've read up on the subject and been told by numerous people, but I just don't buy it.  Or maybe I just have an astounding amount of willpower.  Or maybe nothing is anyone's own fault and no one has control over their own actions, and i'm simply following my predetermined path to not become an addict.

If you haven't been an addict, how can you give advice on how to stop that amounts to "just stop"?

Go get addicted to heroin, then come tell us how easy it was to quit.  But saying you've never been addicted but it's quite simple to just stop via willpower doesn't get a lot of credibility, IMO.

Are all addiction counselors recovering addicts?

Nope.  But I also don't see them offering an easy quick solution of "just stop."

I never said the solution was easy, just simple.  I can't offer them any personal wisdom or advice beyond just stopping the self destructive behavior that you want to stop. 

[sheepstache]

I'm not sure about other programs or their success rates.  But with so many members you are bound to find many that have success stories.  I would suspect that with the amount of alcoholics out there you would be bound to find many success stories of spontaneous remission.

Absolutely, I understand the concern that the percentage might not be statistically significant.  Or even that it might be suppressing people's instincts to get their shit together and at this point AA is the go-to treatment so it's negligence not to refer someone to it so we can't get a good randomized test.  However, there's also the possibility that there's such a low success rate simply because it's a tough-as-hell problem.

By the way, what's the success rate of telling people to "man up"?

I'm not sure that the intuitiveness of a technique is a predictor of its success here.

[netskyblue]

I have experience with an alcoholic.  I understand that once he begins drinking, something happens in his brain that makes him unable to say "no" to more.  He will drink everything he can get his hands on until he passes out.  There is no "two beers" with him.

What I don't understand is, knowing all the trouble this has gotten him into in the past, why he drinks the first drink.  He might go as many as 2 weeks or as little as 2-3 days between binges, but I just can't wrap my head around it.  You KNOW what this beer is going to do to you, and you drink it anyway???

Though I'm like a previous poster, a control freak (of myself, not others).  I don't drink because I can't bear the thought of not being in perfect control of myself.  I couldn't even contemplate nitrous oxide when I had my wisdom teeth out, just asked for shots of novocain.  The idea of somebody willingly entering a drunken state just blows my mind.

[Gin1984]

It is possible that you don't have the tendancy, that other members of your family have, or that you get addicted to other things.  For example, I have an addictive personality, but since I don't like how I feel with alcohol and am a control freak, I don't do drugs or alcohol.  However, I do have issues with video games and reading and have had to set up things to avoid getting sucked in.

I tend to have an addictive personality, or maybe it's just an obsessive personality, and get totally engrossed in things I do.  When I read a book I get into it and want to finish it in one session.  When I get into video games I want to sit and play 24/7.  I am still into skyrim and am playing my 4th character, and i've probably logged over 400 hours so far. 

However I also have will power and can stop if it's going to interfere with my life in some significant way.  If my video games were causing me to not show up to work, or causing me to become financially destitute, I could and would stop.  I don't just sit there and say "oh man i'm addicted, it's not my fault i'm still playing even though I am neglecting other areas of my life".  I know damn well it's my own choice.

You might be biologically different from your family, if you've tried substances and haven't become addicted.  Addiction is most likely epigenetic and complex.  It isn't as simple as if your parents are both addicts, you will be -- although the odds are certainly high in your favor.  Or it may be a matter of time, or you may have benefitted from watching their experience and you won't let yourself become subsumed. It's really not about willpower, though.  Everyone's experience is different.  You do not have super willpower that your parents do not have -- although maybe you have learned from their mistakes.

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior.

That is not true.  An alcoholic is an alcoholic even when he or she stops.  And there are tests for addictive personality.  Wiki gives a nice summary.  One of my committee members does research in addiction and they work on mice.  You have to be able to quantify "addictive behaviors" for mice.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addictive_personality

None of the people I know that are addicts have taken any personality tests or anything to determine they are addicts.  The sole deciding factor was that they can't control themselves with this particular behavior, ergo they are addicts.

How exactly do they quantify addictive behaviors for mice?

There is a set of behaviors with cocaine (the drug he works on) that have been correlated with increased dopamine when exposed to positive reinforcers like food and drugs.  Plus, some other hormones that I don't remember, but I can ask him on Monday when I see him, if you'd like.

[fallstoclimb]

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior.

I assume by "objective test" you mean a biological marker or test.  As far as I know there is not -- although I wouldn't be surprised whether in my lifetime I can go get a DNA test and be told I have an X% of becoming an addict (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if that already exists, although it would of course be imperfect).

However, there are screening tests (e.g. Can you not stop drinking once you start?) that are pretty reliable.  And a lot of diseases/conditions you may assume are confirmed in a factual way are fairly arbitrary.  HIV->AIDS, or pre-diabetes->diabetes -- these are medical conditions that can be confirmed by an "objective test," but the threshold is fairly arbitrary (if still informative).  Similarly, for years there was no true "objective test" you could do for autism spectrum disorders other than observing & screenings -- so is autism not real to you?  (I believe now we are finding differences in brain scans -- but, we do for addicts as well).

The world is not as black and white as you want to make it.  Addiction is not a matter of willpower.  It makes me really sad when people think its that simple. 

[sheepstache]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

Then it's also misunderstood by every addict i've encountered.

It occurs to me I drafted but didn't post my understanding of it:

One of the issues with addiction is that the addiction gives the person a feeling of control. And in a sense, they have real control. They might feel shitty because someone hurt them, but they can light up and instantly feel better. Control feels nice. So nice that it's addictive. And what addicts often tell themselves is that they have control over their addiction, that they can stop any time and therefore it's not a problem. They say they're going to stop, then mysteriously 3 days later they're still at it. Could be a number of things happening here. Most people don't consciously decide, "I'm going to have a drink even though I said I'm not going to." Like many habits, it can just happen. I pat down my pockets when I walk out the door to make sure I have everything. On the rare occasion I wear a dress I end up doing some useless pantomime that just looks like I'm patting my own ass. I don't mean to do it, it's just habit. Or perhaps the will splits in two. The person thinks they have control, but some deeper part of them actually does.  If you look at some of the recent writing on willpower, like the monkey vs. elephant model, it does make sense when thought of as two systems, with the more explicit one having a limited amount of energy. Or maybe the self-hatred cycle is stronger than the will to be clean. They want to go clean but more than that they want to punish themselves. Whatever, the point of the admitting you don't have control over it has less to do with some moralistic argument like you want it to and more with the practical aspect of what will work. The person needs to admit that what they're doing isn't working. They feel really good about themselves thinking they have control over the problem when multiple failed recovery attempts is evidence that they don't. See, they feel the same way you do. They think if they walk into a bar they can choose whether to drink or not. But past experience shows that inevitably if they go into a bar they will drink. They have to admit that in order to decide to start exerting control over things they can control, like whether to go into a bar or not. Who gives a shit if they feel like little babies with no self-control? Who gives a shit if you think they're little babies with no self-control? These people are in so deep there's no room for ego-coddling. If saying something ridiculous helps, then that's what matters, that poison is no longer permanently damaging their system and brain and impairing their thinking. Worrying about whether someone with no experience or knowledge of their situation is going to feel superior to them because of some superficial understanding of the program is really not a concern.

I've never had an addiction, btw, this is just my best guess based on putting together info from readings from a couple different fields.

[Gin1984]

I have experience with an alcoholic.  I understand that once he begins drinking, something happens in his brain that makes him unable to say "no" to more.  He will drink everything he can get his hands on until he passes out.  There is no "two beers" with him.

What I don't understand is, knowing all the trouble this has gotten him into in the past, why he drinks the first drink.  He might go as many as 2 weeks or as little as 2-3 days between binges, but I just can't wrap my head around it.  You KNOW what this beer is going to do to you, and you drink it anyway???

Though I'm like a previous poster, a control freak (of myself, not others).  I don't drink because I can't bear the thought of not being in perfect control of myself.  I couldn't even contemplate nitrous oxide when I had my wisdom teeth out, just asked for shots of novocain.  The idea of somebody willingly entering a drunken state just blows my mind.

Hey, I can answer that one!  There is this thing called condition place preference.  So if your brain associates a place with the drug, it can start giving the "high" when you get there, making like you already starting the drinking or drug taking.  It is harder for someone to not drink/ take the drug in that place or around other stimuli (they have done this with the same group of mice) than otherwise.

[Cassie]

I have spent most of my adult life working with people in human service fields.  Many, many people do make full recoveries & stay clean & sober. Yes, they are addicts for life but learn how to control their disease.  Some relapse after years of sobriety and some do not.  People that recover take responsibility for their past decisions & work to make new & better ones with the support of others.  There are many other types of programs besides AA & what they all have in common is the mutual support that members provide to each other & a safe place to discuss their issues without being judged. Anyone that says "just quit" or use your "willpower" has no clue.  Also some people have no intention of recovering & don't want to & that is fine too.  That is when the family needs to use tough love & stop enabling.

[frugalnacho]

I'm not sure about other programs or their success rates.  But with so many members you are bound to find many that have success stories.  I would suspect that with the amount of alcoholics out there you would be bound to find many success stories of spontaneous remission.

Absolutely, I understand the concern that the percentage might not be statistically significant.  Or even that it might be suppressing people's instincts to get their shit together and at this point AA is the go-to treatment so it's negligence not to refer someone to it so we can't get a good randomized test.  However, there's also the possibility that there's such a low success rate simply because it's a tough-as-hell problem.

By the way, what's the success rate of telling people to "man up"?

I'm not sure that the intuitiveness of a technique is a predictor of its success here.

I think you would have to compare the success rate to that of spontaneous remission.  Sometimes people detox and get straight on their own (ie they man up).  If AA has a success rate similar to that number then it's not an effective program at all.

I don't know the success rate of telling someone to man up, but I would suspect it is low, at least as low as other programs if not lower since it offers no support.

I also don't have a lot of confidence in my success/failure rates given.  The statistics vary wildly depending on which study, and how they define "success" (is continuing to drink every day but still showing up to meetings a success? or total abstinence? what about being clean for 3 years then relapsing?).  I haven't done any reading on it in several years either, so this is being recalled from memory.

[studentdoc2]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.


*insert addiction here

That's really not what that means.... That statement ("you are powerless") reflects the individual's understanding that for him/her, there is no such thing as "drinking in moderation" (or "using in moderation") -- it's not absolving them of anything. Addiction is a disease, but the addict is still responsible for how he or she operations under that decision and for constructing his or her life to avoid addictive behaviors (e.g., avoiding the people or places likely to tempt addictive behavior).

Recovery programs don't work for every addict. No recovery program will work if someone doesn't actually want to get clean, and some addicts find they work best with other methods. Many addicts talk about needing to hit rock bottom before they were able to commit to quitting. However, there are many individuals whose lives have been saved by recovery programs and who credit them with their decades of sobriety.

[GuitarStv]

One of my mental tricks is that if something seems so obviously dumb that it's laughable, I check myself and ask whether I've misunderstood it. That might help you here.

Wow. 

Uh, I may have to do some soul searching, because that idea makes a lot of sense to me, but there are a lot of ideas out there that seem so obviously dumb as to be laughable to me.  But I should probably reconsider.

Thanks for sharing this, sheepstache.

Li'l university GuitarStv would have walked the fuck out of Calculus following this rule.

"Divide by zero?  So you have ten things and give them to nobody?  And you end up with infinite things?  Pffffffffft."

[frugalnacho]

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior.

I assume by "objective test" you mean a biological marker or test.  As far as I know there is not -- although I wouldn't be surprised whether in my lifetime I can go get a DNA test and be told I have an X% of becoming an addict (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if that already exists, although it would of course be imperfect).

However, there are screening tests (e.g. Can you not stop drinking once you start?) that are pretty reliable.  And a lot of diseases/conditions you may assume are confirmed in a factual way are fairly arbitrary.  HIV->AIDS, or pre-diabetes->diabetes -- these are medical conditions that can be confirmed by an "objective test," but the threshold is fairly arbitrary (if still informative).  Similarly, for years there was no true "objective test" you could do for autism spectrum disorders other than observing & screenings -- so is autism not real to you?  (I believe now we are finding differences in brain scans -- but, we do for addicts as well).

The world is not as black and white as you want to make it.  Addiction is not a matter of willpower.  It makes me really sad when people think its that simple.

This is getting difficult to keep up with all the responses, and also convince my boss im not just dicking around on the internet instead of getting some work done...

Yes, that's what I mean by objective test.  What is the difference between me and my friend once we've had 12 beers, and I say (and follow through) "hey man, this has been a blast, but I have responsibilities.  I would LOVE to have several more beers but I also need to get some rest and do whatever obligation I have to do tomorrow" and he just continues drinking until he passes out?  Is there any real difference?  I certainly have that urge to continue doing that addictive behavior.  What makes me able to stop despite that strong urge to continue while others can't?  Is it willpower? Or is there something actually different with the chemistry going on that makes it literally out of his control?

Why can I resist the urge to eat taco bell until I have a heart attack or am so fat that I am disgusted with myself?  Does taco bell trigger a more pleasurable reaction in fat, fast food addicted people than me (I doubt it - I loves me some taco bell).

I know the worlds not always black and white, but sometimes from my perspective it sure looks black and white on a lot of issues.

[netskyblue]

It also stands to reason that if they could stop, they would stop.  Especially after repeated bad things happening as a result of not stopping.  Like getting so fat you can't walk, or going to jail over and over on public intox/DUI charges.

[studentdoc2]

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior.

I assume by "objective test" you mean a biological marker or test.  As far as I know there is not -- although I wouldn't be surprised whether in my lifetime I can go get a DNA test and be told I have an X% of becoming an addict (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if that already exists, although it would of course be imperfect).

However, there are screening tests (e.g. Can you not stop drinking once you start?) that are pretty reliable.  And a lot of diseases/conditions you may assume are confirmed in a factual way are fairly arbitrary.  HIV->AIDS, or pre-diabetes->diabetes -- these are medical conditions that can be confirmed by an "objective test," but the threshold is fairly arbitrary (if still informative).  Similarly, for years there was no true "objective test" you could do for autism spectrum disorders other than observing & screenings -- so is autism not real to you?  (I believe now we are finding differences in brain scans -- but, we do for addicts as well).

The world is not as black and white as you want to make it.  Addiction is not a matter of willpower.  It makes me really sad when people think its that simple.

This is getting difficult to keep up with all the responses, and also convince my boss im not just dicking around on the internet instead of getting some work done...

Yes, that's what I mean by objective test.  What is the difference between me and my friend once we've had 12 beers, and I say (and follow through) "hey man, this has been a blast, but I have responsibilities.  I would LOVE to have several more beers but I also need to get some rest and do whatever obligation I have to do tomorrow" and he just continues drinking until he passes out?  Is there any real difference?  I certainly have that urge to continue doing that addictive behavior.  What makes me able to stop despite that strong urge to continue while others can't?  Is it willpower? Or is there something actually different with the chemistry going on that makes it literally out of his control?

Why can I resist the urge to eat taco bell until I have a heart attack or am so fat that I am disgusted with myself? Does taco bell trigger a more pleasurable reaction in fat, fast food addicted people than me (I doubt it - I loves me some taco bell).

I know the worlds not always black and white, but sometimes from my perspective it sure looks black and white on a lot of issues.

Actually, yes, there are some studies that suggest that. In addiction, it's actually more clear that the neurological response is different in addicts and non-addicts. Those differences can include bigger surges of pleasure-inducing hormones, anticipatory pleasure, more rapid and/or shorter-lived responses (thus the need to keep chasing that high), etc. Neurologically, what they experience is different from what you experience.

Perhaps an analogy would be that for you to stop at 12 beers (or whatever other drug), you have to put forth the mental effort equivalent of walking up two flights of stairs. For someone else, that might be more like walking up 20 flights of stairs. For another, 200 . For addicts -- especially those who exhibit physical dependence on a drug -- the effort require to moderate their behavior can be overwhelming. It's easier to abstain entirely.

Also, we seem to be ignoring the fact that physical dependence on drugs is frequent among addicts. Their bodies crave the drug the way yours craves food or water. That's one cause of withdrawal symptoms. In the case of dependence on alcohol, withdrawal can actually result in death. It's truly very, very dangerous.

[Gin1984]

Maybe I have, I don't know.  My main problem is that as far as I know there is no objective test to tell if someone is truly addicted, or if something is inherently different with them.  It's simply a matter of if they stop that activity or not.  Drink alcohol all the time and can't control yourself? You have a disease and it's not your fault.  You stopped drinking alcohol and exhibited self control? Then you clearly don't have a disease.  It's always diagnosed after the fact, and the only factor seems to be if they can control their behavior.

I assume by "objective test" you mean a biological marker or test.  As far as I know there is not -- although I wouldn't be surprised whether in my lifetime I can go get a DNA test and be told I have an X% of becoming an addict (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if that already exists, although it would of course be imperfect).

However, there are screening tests (e.g. Can you not stop drinking once you start?) that are pretty reliable.  And a lot of diseases/conditions you may assume are confirmed in a factual way are fairly arbitrary.  HIV->AIDS, or pre-diabetes->diabetes -- these are medical conditions that can be confirmed by an "objective test," but the threshold is fairly arbitrary (if still informative).  Similarly, for years there was no true "objective test" you could do for autism spectrum disorders other than observing & screenings -- so is autism not real to you?  (I believe now we are finding differences in brain scans -- but, we do for addicts as well).

The world is not as black and white as you want to make it.  Addiction is not a matter of willpower.  It makes me really sad when people think its that simple.

This is getting difficult to keep up with all the responses, and also convince my boss im not just dicking around on the internet instead of getting some work done...

Yes, that's what I mean by objective test.  What is the difference between me and my friend once we've had 12 beers, and I say (and follow through) "hey man, this has been a blast, but I have responsibilities.  I would LOVE to have several more beers but I also need to get some rest and do whatever obligation I have to do tomorrow" and he just continues drinking until he passes out?  Is there any real difference?  I certainly have that urge to continue doing that addictive behavior.  What makes me able to stop despite that strong urge to continue while others can't?  Is it willpower? Or is there something actually different with the chemistry going on that makes it literally out of his control?

Why can I resist the urge to eat taco bell until I have a heart attack or am so fat that I am disgusted with myself? Does taco bell trigger a more pleasurable reaction in fat, fast food addicted people than me (I doubt it - I loves me some taco bell).

I know the worlds not always black and white, but sometimes from my perspective it sure looks black and white on a lot of issues.

Actually, yes, there are some studies that suggest that. In addiction, it's actually more clear that the neurological response is different in addicts and non-addicts. Those differences can include bigger surges of pleasure-inducing hormones, anticipatory pleasure, more rapid and/or shorter-lived responses (thus the need to keep chasing that high), etc. Neurologically, what they experience is different from what you experience.

Perhaps an analogy would be that for you to stop at 12 beers (or whatever other drug), you have to put forth the mental effort equivalent of walking up two flights of stairs. For someone else, that might be more like walking up 20 flights of stairs. For another, 200 . For addicts -- especially those who exhibit physical dependence on a drug -- the effort require to moderate their behavior can be overwhelming. It's easier to abstain entirely.

Also, we seem to be ignoring the fact that physical dependence on drugs is frequent among addicts. Their bodies crave the drug the way yours craves food or water. That's one cause of withdrawal symptoms. In the case of dependence on alcohol, withdrawal can actually result in death. It's truly very, very dangerous.

Which is why some addiction clinics in the USA won't take pregnant women, it is too dangerous (and opens then up to lawsuits). 

[frugalnacho]

Bob newhart has a very similar approach to mine for life counseling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmrGUVbaaRs

[frugalnacho]

I have experience with an alcoholic.  I understand that once he begins drinking, something happens in his brain that makes him unable to say "no" to more.  He will drink everything he can get his hands on until he passes out.  There is no "two beers" with him.

What I don't understand is, knowing all the trouble this has gotten him into in the past, why he drinks the first drink.  He might go as many as 2 weeks or as little as 2-3 days between binges, but I just can't wrap my head around it.  You KNOW what this beer is going to do to you, and you drink it anyway???

Though I'm like a previous poster, a control freak (of myself, not others).  I don't drink because I can't bear the thought of not being in perfect control of myself.  I couldn't even contemplate nitrous oxide when I had my wisdom teeth out, just asked for shots of novocain.  The idea of somebody willingly entering a drunken state just blows my mind.

I've heard this argument from a number of people, and it blows my mind.  I am still fully in control of my life, my thoughts, and my senses when doing drugs or drinking.  I don't turn into another person, or lose control.  Obviously it's a spectrum, and if I drink a fifth by myself I will be out of my mind and not in control.  Or if I eat special brownies I may get so high I am unable to stand up or do much of anything but sleep.  But simply having a few beers, or smoking a joint, and getting buzzed doesn't mean you are not in control of yourself.  Some mental and physical capacities may be diminished, but so what?  So what if I don't have the mental clarity to complete my tax return, so long as I don't need to complete my tax return at that time?  And so what if I temporarily lose a little coordination and reaction time, so long as I don't need to operate any heavy machinery?  It's just a slightly different (and enjoyable) mind state imo. 

[NoraLenderbee]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.

"Admitting you are powerless" does *not* mean "it's not my fault." It does not mean they were standing there minding their own business and Big Bad Alcohol walked up and kidnapped them.

What it means is, "I cannot control my drinking by myself with just my will power." It is an admission of weakness and of the need for help. It is also a means to get past the stage of pure guilt and self-hatred so they can start thinking about how to go forward.

[Annamal]

Why can I resist the urge to eat taco bell until I have a heart attack or am so fat that I am disgusted with myself?  Does taco bell trigger a more pleasurable reaction in fat, fast food addicted people than me (I doubt it - I loves me some taco bell).

Why not think about the reverse, how are you able to eat and take pleasure (and keep down)  Taco Bell when someone with an eating disorder is likely to be utterly incapable of doing that?

You could tell them to "just eat" but that is advice that just does not work (and is actively harmful if used instead of a more intensive long term treatment plan).

The bottom line is that the brain is an organ that can be screwed up in ways you can not even imagine and people dealing with screwed up brains are fighting a harder battle than you or I can imagine.

[golden1]

I know the worlds not always black and white, but sometimes from my perspective it sure looks black and white on a lot of issues.

I am going to say this in the kindest way I know how, and it honestly isn't meant as a personal attack, but after reading other threads that you are involved in, have you ever considered that you just may not have very much empathy?

I used to see things as very black and white too, until I started truly understanding that others had different lives, experiences, biology and thoughts that made my experiences irrelvant to their experiences. 

As far as addiction goes, we can talk until we are blue in the face about it without truly understanding it because the science isn't there yet.  Why do some people drink until they black out?  Why are some people able to realize they have a problem drinking and use non-AA programs to continue drinking in a non problematic manner?  My parents were both alcoholics, but their behavior around alcohol was dramatically different.  My father got happy and relaxed when drinking, and was tense when he wasn't.  My mom got very quiet and sad when drinking.   

At an early age, like 10 years old, when I realized my dad was an alcoholic, I vowed to never drink alcohol.  I don't think I am a fundamentally better person than my parents were.  I just am very risk averse, and didn't think it was worth the potential risk of becoming an alcoholic to mess around with booze.  But most other kids of addicts don't make that choice, but I don't feel like I am a better person than they are. 

[frugalnacho]

I know the worlds not always black and white, but sometimes from my perspective it sure looks black and white on a lot of issues.

I am going to say this in the kindest way I know how, and it honestly isn't meant as a personal attack, but after reading other threads that you are involved in, have you ever considered that you just may not have very much empathy?

I used to see things as very black and white too, until I started truly understanding that others had different lives, experiences, biology and thoughts that made my experiences irrelvant to their experiences. 

As far as addiction goes, we can talk until we are blue in the face about it without truly understanding it because the science isn't there yet.  Why do some people drink until they black out?  Why are some people able to realize they have a problem drinking and use non-AA programs to continue drinking in a non problematic manner?  My parents were both alcoholics, but their behavior around alcohol was dramatically different.  My father got happy and relaxed when drinking, and was tense when he wasn't.  My mom got very quiet and sad when drinking.   

At an early age, like 10 years old, when I realized my dad was an alcoholic, I vowed to never drink alcohol.  I don't think I am a fundamentally better person than my parents were.  I just am very risk averse, and didn't think it was worth the potential risk of becoming an alcoholic to mess around with booze.  But most other kids of addicts don't make that choice, but I don't feel like I am a better person than they are.

Yes,  I am aware of that.  I have a very difficult time relating to others and imaging myself in someone else's shoes (emotionally, not as much situationally [although the emotional aspect is still missing]) and it's been a problem my whole life.

[Annamal]

Yes,  I am aware of that.  I have a very difficult time relating to others and imaging myself in someone else's shoes (emotionally, not as much situationally [although the emotional aspect is still missing]) and it's been a problem my whole life.

There are things you can do that might make it easier to understand why other people do the things that they do, but probably the first step to any of those would be trying very hard not to make snap judgements about other people and the reasons they behave the way that they do.

[frugalnacho]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.

"Admitting you are powerless" does *not* mean "it's not my fault." It does not mean they were standing there minding their own business and Big Bad Alcohol walked up and kidnapped them.

What it means is, "I cannot control my drinking by myself with just my will power." It is an admission of weakness and of the need for help. It is also a means to get past the stage of pure guilt and self-hatred so they can start thinking about how to go forward.

I'm tempted to let this thread die, as I don't want to keep stirring up shit.  I understand what you mean, but that's not how it's been presented to me by people in the program.  None of the people I have known that are addicts became addicts the second a drop of beer hit their tongue (although depending on how you define it, maybe they were - even though they didn't act like it).  They drank, and seemingly had control of their drinking and their lives.  Then gradually the problem got worse and worse, they became clear cut addicts, and then continued on that path, and only then realized they had a problem and sought help.  Then they enter the program, admit they are powerless to alcohol, and poof they are no longer responsible.  They are responsible for taking that first drink, and any future relapses, and any harm they caused to others, but for being an alcoholic they are not responsible.  It's just the way it is, they were alcoholics long before they ever had a drink, and it just took a few years of hard core drinking for them to come to the realization.

To me that seems like a pile a bullshit.  I could see myself becoming an addict if I pursued one activity or one drug with reckless abandon and gave into the urges to continue (although maybe i'm fooling myself and under no circumstances could I succumb to the addict demon since i'm not an "addict"), and those urges are definitely real, I have felt them.  Maybe they truly don't have control.  I realize victim blaming is not productive and does not help those people, I guess I just have a hard time accepting that they have literally zero control over their impulses.

[Gin1984]

Additionally, there are many recovering addicts who take full responsibility for their actions -- contrary to your statement that "they get all offended and say it's not their fault". In fact, acceptance of responsibility for one's actions is one of the cornerstones of many recovery programs. Recovering addicts can be high-functioning, contributing members to society -- and I would argue that their constant efforts to avoid engaging in addictive behaviors expresses a far greater amount of willpower than does a non-predisposed individual who avoids using.

Yes, one's own actions that cause harm to others.  Step one of the program is to admit you are powerless to alcohol*. It's not your fault you are an alcoholic, it's entirely out of your control.  You've done bad things, and made bad choices, and hurt people, and you need to be accountable for those actions, but for the alcoholism itself you are absolved, because it's not your fault.

"Admitting you are powerless" does *not* mean "it's not my fault." It does not mean they were standing there minding their own business and Big Bad Alcohol walked up and kidnapped them.

What it means is, "I cannot control my drinking by myself with just my will power." It is an admission of weakness and of the need for help. It is also a means to get past the stage of pure guilt and self-hatred so they can start thinking about how to go forward.

I'm tempted to let this thread die, as I don't want to keep stirring up shit.  I understand what you mean, but that's not how it's been presented to me by people in the program.  None of the people I have known that are addicts became addicts the second a drop of beer hit their tongue (although depending on how you define it, maybe they were - even though they didn't act like it).  They drank, and seemingly had control of their drinking and their lives.  Then gradually the problem got worse and worse, they became clear cut addicts, and then continued on that path, and only then realized they had a problem and sought help.  Then they enter the program, admit they are powerless to alcohol, and poof they are no longer responsible.  They are responsible for taking that first drink, and any future relapses, and any harm they caused to others, but for being an alcoholic they are not responsible.  It's just the way it is, they were alcoholics long before they ever had a drink, and it just took a few years of hard core drinking for them to come to the realization.

To me that seems like a pile a bullshit.  I could see myself becoming an addict if I pursued one activity or one drug with reckless abandon and gave into the urges to continue (although maybe i'm fooling myself and under no circumstances could I succumb to the addict demon since i'm not an "addict"), and those urges are definitely real, I have felt them.  Maybe they truly don't have control.  I realize victim blaming is not productive and does not help those people, I guess I just have a hard time accepting that they have literally zero control over their impulses.

Well given that we could open their brains and compare their dopamine levels (and other hormone levels) when exposed to positive stimuli and their levels would different than a non-addict (which has been previously stated in this thread), yes they do have an addictive personality/"are an addict" prior to the drink.  There are biological differences between those type of people and non-addicts.  Why is that something you are ignoring?  Would it help if I got the research articles on it, and sent you the abstracts instead of trying to give you a summery from wiki?  What would help you understand that there is a physiological difference? 
I mean I assume you would not say it is bullshit for someone who has asthma to be more sensitive to pollution and need an inhaler as a result.  I mean you could just as easily say, well they should know the asthma would act up here so they should move to the country away from the pollution. 
Why is something wrong the brain any different than something wrong with another organ?  Is it just because the brain is less understood?

[frugalnacho]

Well given that we could open their brains and compare their dopamine levels (and other hormone levels) when exposed to positive stimuli and their levels would different than a non-addict (which has been previously stated in this thread), yes they do have an addictive personality/"are an addict" prior to the drink.  There are biological differences between those type of people and non-addicts.  Why is that something you are ignoring?  Would it help if I got the research articles on it, and sent you the abstracts instead of trying to give you a summery from wiki?  What would help you understand that there is a physiological difference? 
I mean I assume you would not say it is bullshit for someone who has asthma to be more sensitive to pollution and need an inhaler as a result.  I mean you could just as easily say, well they should know the asthma would act up here so they should move to the country away from the pollution. 
Why is something wrong the brain any different than something wrong with another organ?  Is it just because the brain is less understood?

It's not something i'm ignoring.  As far as I know none of the addicts i've been in contact with have had their dopamine or hormone levels checked.  Perhaps if they did their dopamine levels would be off the charts.

[Gin1984]

Well given that we could open their brains and compare their dopamine levels (and other hormone levels) when exposed to positive stimuli and their levels would different than a non-addict (which has been previously stated in this thread), yes they do have an addictive personality/"are an addict" prior to the drink.  There are biological differences between those type of people and non-addicts.  Why is that something you are ignoring?  Would it help if I got the research articles on it, and sent you the abstracts instead of trying to give you a summery from wiki?  What would help you understand that there is a physiological difference? 
I mean I assume you would not say it is bullshit for someone who has asthma to be more sensitive to pollution and need an inhaler as a result.  I mean you could just as easily say, well they should know the asthma would act up here so they should move to the country away from the pollution. 
Why is something wrong the brain any different than something wrong with another organ?  Is it just because the brain is less understood?

It's not something i'm ignoring.  As far as I know none of the addicts i've been in contact with have had their dopamine or hormone levels checked.  Perhaps if they did their dopamine levels would be off the charts.

Yes, but if we know that certain behavior are correlated to that, we don't have to open up someone skull (a very dangerous procedure) to confirm what is already known.  And my bet, is those addicts (if they are addicts) have those behaviors.  So, basically it seems like, you don't like how it has been defined.  Am I misunderstanding?

[frugalnacho]

Well given that we could open their brains and compare their dopamine levels (and other hormone levels) when exposed to positive stimuli and their levels would different than a non-addict (which has been previously stated in this thread), yes they do have an addictive personality/"are an addict" prior to the drink.  There are biological differences between those type of people and non-addicts.  Why is that something you are ignoring?  Would it help if I got the research articles on it, and sent you the abstracts instead of trying to give you a summery from wiki?  What would help you understand that there is a physiological difference? 
I mean I assume you would not say it is bullshit for someone who has asthma to be more sensitive to pollution and need an inhaler as a result.  I mean you could just as easily say, well they should know the asthma would act up here so they should move to the country away from the pollution. 
Why is something wrong the brain any different than something wrong with another organ?  Is it just because the brain is less understood?

It's not something i'm ignoring.  As far as I know none of the addicts i've been in contact with have had their dopamine or hormone levels checked.  Perhaps if they did their dopamine levels would be off the charts.

Yes, but if we know that certain behavior are correlated to that, we don't have to open up someone skull (a very dangerous procedure) to confirm what is already known.  And my bet, is those addicts (if they are addicts) have those behaviors.  So, basically it seems like, you don't like how it has been defined.  Am I misunderstanding?

What do you mean if they are addicts?  I thought it was self evident and we weren't allowed to question the fact.

[Gin1984]

Well given that we could open their brains and compare their dopamine levels (and other hormone levels) when exposed to positive stimuli and their levels would different than a non-addict (which has been previously stated in this thread), yes they do have an addictive personality/"are an addict" prior to the drink.  There are biological differences between those type of people and non-addicts.  Why is that something you are ignoring?  Would it help if I got the research articles on it, and sent you the abstracts instead of trying to give you a summery from wiki?  What would help you understand that there is a physiological difference? 
I mean I assume you would not say it is bullshit for someone who has asthma to be more sensitive to pollution and need an inhaler as a result.  I mean you could just as easily say, well they should know the asthma would act up here so they should move to the country away from the pollution. 
Why is something wrong the brain any different than something wrong with another organ?  Is it just because the brain is less understood?

It's not something i'm ignoring.  As far as I know none of the addicts i've been in contact with have had their dopamine or hormone levels checked.  Perhaps if they did their dopamine levels would be off the charts.

Yes, but if we know that certain behavior are correlated to that, we don't have to open up someone skull (a very dangerous procedure) to confirm what is already known.  And my bet, is those addicts (if they are addicts) have those behaviors.  So, basically it seems like, you don't like how it has been defined.  Am I misunderstanding?

What do you mean if they are addicts?  I thought it was self evident and we weren't allowed to question the fact.

Addict is and has operational defined by the researchers who work on this.  Why would you think someone who want to call themselves an addict if they were not one, though?    Honestly, I'm really having trouble understanding your POV. What benefit do you think someone being called an addict has that would make someone who does not have the addictive personality call themselves an addict?