Author Topic: A crisis of poor decision making  (Read 6940 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2025, 03:58:24 PM »
Mostly posting to follow, but...

I agree with those who say that many of these things have existed forever (random 1890 antivax cartoon), they are part of human nature.  Education helped and when I was a kid very few families were antivax or anti fluoride.

To me it seems that social media has been an accelerant for vice and misinformation.

Just because something similar happened at one point in history doesn't mean that what's going on today isn't novel.

Yeah, in the late 1800s there was a big antivaccine movement.  But we had a pretty good run (since what, at least the thirties?)  were it wasn't an issue.  That it has come back, given the better access to information, and the better education that the average person has is very disturbing.

Oh we totally agree.  Education had been slowly working and people had adjusted.  But that movement was still around, underground (source: family). 

Along comes social media and suddenly it seems like the movement exploded.  It's almost like it was the catalyst needed for the movement to metastasize.

Same with a number of other vices*: gambling, casual racism, smoking, maybe eating disorders?  No hard data for this, just observation.

 
* alcohol use and risky sex has gone down though, so there is that.

When gambling went from being illegal to being promoted by governments as cash grabs something was lost.  Lottos like 6/49 are taxes on optimism and bad math skills.  And all the casinos.

Seriously, several years ago I heard (third-hand) about a guy in my area who cancelled the wedding when he found out his fiancee had $250,000 in gambling debt. 

jrhampt

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2025, 04:22:20 PM »
A uniquely modern phenomenon is people - including stable couples - making the decision to not have kids so that they can have more money / stuff / luxury / recreation time.

It may seem judgemental to question any individual's very personal decision not to devote 2 decades of their life to wiping buts, mending cuts, and yelling at teenagers, but there is something interesting going on when consumerism is a stronger draw than an organism's reproductive drive for a very large portion of the population. Family lines representing a hundred thousand generations of struggle to survive and care for young are ending with an iPad, an Amazon account, and a luxury SUV.

[Snip]

Yeah, this is where you lost me.  I don't think it can be assumed that this is a primary reason for declining birth rates.  I don't know if data exists, but anecdotally I know of a number of other reasons couples we know have chosen not to have kids, including environmental (there was a whole other thread on this), political, no "calling" to have kids, etc., which decisions do not involve a desire for more money/stuff/luxury/recreation time.

Yeah, a lot of leaps of logic that I don't think really hold up.

Just a reminder that this "uniquely modern phenomenon" of stable couples choosing not to have kids is linked to the uniquely modern phenomenon of reliable birth control for women.  When we actually have the choice, any logical woman realizes that you get screwed over in so, so, so many ways if you choose to have kids, and you can have a very active sex life while having no desire to actually reproduce.  I would have to want kids very very badly in order for that to outweigh all the downsides not limited to but including having to pay out the nose for the privilege of pregnancy damage to my body (pelvic floor damage leading to incontinence, gestational diabetes, stomach muscle separation etc.), all the extra work that does tend to fall disproportionately on the woman, and severe limitations to my free time.  And I have a stable partner who is pretty great.  This is why they are trying to take away our choice.  They told themselves stories about how women are "naturally" nurturing and have these biological clocks and uncontrollable urges to have children, and it turns out that just isn't true.  Not any moreso than for men.  I actually expect men would want to have children more than women do because of some of the unique disadvantages that it entails for us.  I believe I've said this before, but fuck that, no thank you very much.

Exactly. This is the first time in recorded history where women can choose to have a life that does not involve subjugating themselves to a man and controlling whether sex results in pregnancy. This ain't about purchasing power for me. It's about me not wanting to do shit I don't want to do and actually being given the opportunity to say no to it.

Damn right.  This is not about capitalism.  It’s not about loving sex or not (ftr: love).  Idk how many times we have to point out that kids are a VERY BAD DEAL for women.  Very bad.  We should be worshipped like actual gods since we have the ability to create life (at great personal cost), but instead we are shit on at every turn.  If you shit on me, I go on strike. 

But carry on about lead poisoning because I too am baffled as to why a large portion of the population is so completely insane; I just don’t think that choosing not to have kids is an example of bad decision making.

There are old studies in rats that show social breakdown in times of overcrowding. Even if there are plenty of resources, the maternal and paternal behaviours stop working for some of the population.

In a way it makes sense.  In K type species population size is controlled by internal regulation.  R type species are controlled by outside influences.  So as our planet becomes overpopulated, we are acting as a K type species to bring numbers down.

After all, when I was born the planet was at 1 billion and that was still too many people in some places.  Loosing a big chunk of population gradually may be hard hard short term but is overall a "good thing".

And yes, having babies is extremely hard on women's bodies.   Before modern medicine it was quite common for women to die in childbirth, or shortly thereafter.  Too many babies and they had brittle bones and teeth falling out. 

And if there are fewer babies and children maybe society will value them more and give them more resources to have healthy childhoods.


Yeah, this could very well be part of it, too (k species behavior).  The population has doubled in size since I was born.  And I damn sure do not want to have daughters who will have fewer rights than I did.

RetiredAt63

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2025, 05:31:21 PM »
A uniquely modern phenomenon is people - including stable couples - making the decision to not have kids so that they can have more money / stuff / luxury / recreation time.

It may seem judgemental to question any individual's very personal decision not to devote 2 decades of their life to wiping buts, mending cuts, and yelling at teenagers, but there is something interesting going on when consumerism is a stronger draw than an organism's reproductive drive for a very large portion of the population. Family lines representing a hundred thousand generations of struggle to survive and care for young are ending with an iPad, an Amazon account, and a luxury SUV.

[Snip]

Yeah, this is where you lost me.  I don't think it can be assumed that this is a primary reason for declining birth rates.  I don't know if data exists, but anecdotally I know of a number of other reasons couples we know have chosen not to have kids, including environmental (there was a whole other thread on this), political, no "calling" to have kids, etc., which decisions do not involve a desire for more money/stuff/luxury/recreation time.

Yeah, a lot of leaps of logic that I don't think really hold up.

Just a reminder that this "uniquely modern phenomenon" of stable couples choosing not to have kids is linked to the uniquely modern phenomenon of reliable birth control for women.  When we actually have the choice, any logical woman realizes that you get screwed over in so, so, so many ways if you choose to have kids, and you can have a very active sex life while having no desire to actually reproduce.  I would have to want kids very very badly in order for that to outweigh all the downsides not limited to but including having to pay out the nose for the privilege of pregnancy damage to my body (pelvic floor damage leading to incontinence, gestational diabetes, stomach muscle separation etc.), all the extra work that does tend to fall disproportionately on the woman, and severe limitations to my free time.  And I have a stable partner who is pretty great.  This is why they are trying to take away our choice.  They told themselves stories about how women are "naturally" nurturing and have these biological clocks and uncontrollable urges to have children, and it turns out that just isn't true.  Not any moreso than for men.  I actually expect men would want to have children more than women do because of some of the unique disadvantages that it entails for us.  I believe I've said this before, but fuck that, no thank you very much.

Exactly. This is the first time in recorded history where women can choose to have a life that does not involve subjugating themselves to a man and controlling whether sex results in pregnancy. This ain't about purchasing power for me. It's about me not wanting to do shit I don't want to do and actually being given the opportunity to say no to it.

Damn right.  This is not about capitalism.  It’s not about loving sex or not (ftr: love).  Idk how many times we have to point out that kids are a VERY BAD DEAL for women.  Very bad.  We should be worshipped like actual gods since we have the ability to create life (at great personal cost), but instead we are shit on at every turn.  If you shit on me, I go on strike. 

But carry on about lead poisoning because I too am baffled as to why a large portion of the population is so completely insane; I just don’t think that choosing not to have kids is an example of bad decision making.

There are old studies in rats that show social breakdown in times of overcrowding. Even if there are plenty of resources, the maternal and paternal behaviours stop working for some of the population.

In a way it makes sense.  In K type species population size is controlled by internal regulation.  R type species are controlled by outside influences.  So as our planet becomes overpopulated, we are acting as a K type species to bring numbers down.

After all, when I was born the planet was at 1 billion and that was still too many people in some places.  Loosing a big chunk of population gradually may be hard hard short term but is overall a "good thing".

And yes, having babies is extremely hard on women's bodies.   Before modern medicine it was quite common for women to die in childbirth, or shortly thereafter.  Too many babies and they had brittle bones and teeth falling out. 

And if there are fewer babies and children maybe society will value them more and give them more resources to have healthy childhoods.


Yeah, this could very well be part of it, too (k species behavior).  The population has doubled in size since I was born.  And I damn sure do not want to have daughters who will have fewer rights than I did.

We are OK here in Canada for body autonomy, and we have generally decent maternity/paternity leave.  Universal health care means having a baby is covered.  But Millennials are marrying later, judging by DD's friends, and then waiting a bit to have babies, so the first baby is coming when they are in their 30s.  When I look at her friends, they have 1 or 2 kids.  Maybe some will have a 3rd, but . . .   And it isn't new, DD is an only child and so is SiL.

DD is going through what I went through and every working molter goes through - she and SiL have to get the kid to daycare, pick her up from daycare, get her to activities, all the basic stuff of feeding her and reading to her and getting her to bed.  It is a lot of planning and energy.  And SiL is pretty much an equal participant, his generation is doing better than my generation.  Again, at least among her circle of friends the guys are contributing at home.

But the two things that push for many children are gone - we don't have massive child mortality, and we don't need child labour on the farms.  Basically a woman might have 10-15 children  if she survived childbirth) and have 2 survive to adulthood.  Then modern medicine meant she had 10-15 and most survived.  Now we are getting back to a small family but the easy way, no massive child mortality. I definitely prefer it.

reeshau

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2025, 05:32:26 PM »
I think some of the anti-intellectualism / anti-elitism comes from the fact that society is now a lot more competitive. In the past the rich were aristocrats and barons - they were born there, so they were privileged, and everyone knew it, and it was all a bit arbitrary and unfair but at least there was this noblesse oblige thing. These days those who achieve privilege like to believe (and in some cases rightfully so) that they earned it through merit, not birthright - and that makes the spoils of the victors and the bitterness of the losers all the more palpable. Hence why society is more divided and there is less trust overall.

I think you're on to something significant.

My chronology goes something like this:

Pre-WWII, nobody really thought society was meritocratic, but there was rapid growth and most people's lives were getting better.

WWII to 1989ish, all the smart people previously excluded from white collar work by money, gender, and race went through universities and there was a ton of social sorting.  Smart, driven women met, married, and procreated with smart, driven men.  The crucial thing, though, was that the people who ended up as doctors had gone to high school with the truck drivers and janitors.  There was a sense that people did sort of start in a similar place, even though they ended up with very different lives.  I'd call this era The Great Sort.

1990-1999: Society has mostly sorted.  Inequalities have hardened into intergenerational divisions that have started to look and feel like a class-based society.  Successful parents live in exclusive neighborhoods/suburbs/school districts and send their kids to school with similarly situated families.  Those kids go on to become society's various experts, but in no sense is their background representative of America.  The rest of the country increasingly looks at them as a ruling class and resents them. 

2000-2009: Growth slows down, and the class tensions rise.  Increasingly it looks like there's no route from growing up poor or lower middle class to "making it."  Society feels like a zero sum game where a favored class starts on third base.

2010-Present: People think the game is rigged, and they look for ways to disrupt it rather than succeed within it.  Podcasters, influencers, and politicians promise them that the problem is the system and the elites, not them.

If you were to say post WWII instead of pre, I might agree with you.  The Roaring 20's ended the last gilded age, and no way was the depression a period of high growth and aspiration.  As WWII spurred industry and gave women a taste of working life, the GI Bill also gave opportunity for college to a lot of people who might not have thought about it before.  The 50's were the beginning of the boom.

wenchsenior

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2025, 06:33:46 PM »
A uniquely modern phenomenon is people - including stable couples - making the decision to not have kids so that they can have more money / stuff / luxury / recreation time.

It may seem judgemental to question any individual's very personal decision not to devote 2 decades of their life to wiping buts, mending cuts, and yelling at teenagers, but there is something interesting going on when consumerism is a stronger draw than an organism's reproductive drive for a very large portion of the population. Family lines representing a hundred thousand generations of struggle to survive and care for young are ending with an iPad, an Amazon account, and a luxury SUV.

[Snip]

Yeah, this is where you lost me.  I don't think it can be assumed that this is a primary reason for declining birth rates.  I don't know if data exists, but anecdotally I know of a number of other reasons couples we know have chosen not to have kids, including environmental (there was a whole other thread on this), political, no "calling" to have kids, etc., which decisions do not involve a desire for more money/stuff/luxury/recreation time.

Yeah, a lot of leaps of logic that I don't think really hold up.

Just a reminder that this "uniquely modern phenomenon" of stable couples choosing not to have kids is linked to the uniquely modern phenomenon of reliable birth control for women.  When we actually have the choice, any logical woman realizes that you get screwed over in so, so, so many ways if you choose to have kids, and you can have a very active sex life while having no desire to actually reproduce.  I would have to want kids very very badly in order for that to outweigh all the downsides not limited to but including having to pay out the nose for the privilege of pregnancy damage to my body (pelvic floor damage leading to incontinence, gestational diabetes, stomach muscle separation etc.), all the extra work that does tend to fall disproportionately on the woman, and severe limitations to my free time.  And I have a stable partner who is pretty great.  This is why they are trying to take away our choice.  They told themselves stories about how women are "naturally" nurturing and have these biological clocks and uncontrollable urges to have children, and it turns out that just isn't true.  Not any moreso than for men.  I actually expect men would want to have children more than women do because of some of the unique disadvantages that it entails for us.  I believe I've said this before, but fuck that, no thank you very much.

Exactly. This is the first time in recorded history where women can choose to have a life that does not involve subjugating themselves to a man and controlling whether sex results in pregnancy. This ain't about purchasing power for me. It's about me not wanting to do shit I don't want to do and actually being given the opportunity to say no to it.

Damn right.  This is not about capitalism.  It’s not about loving sex or not (ftr: love).  Idk how many times we have to point out that kids are a VERY BAD DEAL for women.  Very bad.  We should be worshipped like actual gods since we have the ability to create life (at great personal cost), but instead we are shit on at every turn.  If you shit on me, I go on strike. 

But carry on about lead poisoning because I too am baffled as to why a large portion of the population is so completely insane; I just don’t think that choosing not to have kids is an example of bad decision making.

I know the default assumption is that most 'normal' women have maternal urges, and therefore the trend toward not having kids/not having as many must be due to something going wrong. My own default assumption is that far more women are totally 'neutral' or even naturally negative on maternal urges, but until the invention of reliable birth control that women actually could access on their own, they simply ended up stuck being mothers as a default b/c they had sex.

My suspicion is that most women actively do want sex, but that motherhood is much more of an accidental byproduct of that throughout history. Until recently. As soon as women were given the option to have sex but opt out of the consequences, while simultaneously being give the option to do a lot more self-actualization/careers, etc., then naturally a bunch of women noped straight out of parenting.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2025, 06:35:29 PM by wenchsenior »

jrhampt

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2025, 06:49:24 PM »
A uniquely modern phenomenon is people - including stable couples - making the decision to not have kids so that they can have more money / stuff / luxury / recreation time.

It may seem judgemental to question any individual's very personal decision not to devote 2 decades of their life to wiping buts, mending cuts, and yelling at teenagers, but there is something interesting going on when consumerism is a stronger draw than an organism's reproductive drive for a very large portion of the population. Family lines representing a hundred thousand generations of struggle to survive and care for young are ending with an iPad, an Amazon account, and a luxury SUV.

[Snip]

Yeah, this is where you lost me.  I don't think it can be assumed that this is a primary reason for declining birth rates.  I don't know if data exists, but anecdotally I know of a number of other reasons couples we know have chosen not to have kids, including environmental (there was a whole other thread on this), political, no "calling" to have kids, etc., which decisions do not involve a desire for more money/stuff/luxury/recreation time.

Yeah, a lot of leaps of logic that I don't think really hold up.

Just a reminder that this "uniquely modern phenomenon" of stable couples choosing not to have kids is linked to the uniquely modern phenomenon of reliable birth control for women.  When we actually have the choice, any logical woman realizes that you get screwed over in so, so, so many ways if you choose to have kids, and you can have a very active sex life while having no desire to actually reproduce.  I would have to want kids very very badly in order for that to outweigh all the downsides not limited to but including having to pay out the nose for the privilege of pregnancy damage to my body (pelvic floor damage leading to incontinence, gestational diabetes, stomach muscle separation etc.), all the extra work that does tend to fall disproportionately on the woman, and severe limitations to my free time.  And I have a stable partner who is pretty great.  This is why they are trying to take away our choice.  They told themselves stories about how women are "naturally" nurturing and have these biological clocks and uncontrollable urges to have children, and it turns out that just isn't true.  Not any moreso than for men.  I actually expect men would want to have children more than women do because of some of the unique disadvantages that it entails for us.  I believe I've said this before, but fuck that, no thank you very much.

Exactly. This is the first time in recorded history where women can choose to have a life that does not involve subjugating themselves to a man and controlling whether sex results in pregnancy. This ain't about purchasing power for me. It's about me not wanting to do shit I don't want to do and actually being given the opportunity to say no to it.

Damn right.  This is not about capitalism.  It’s not about loving sex or not (ftr: love).  Idk how many times we have to point out that kids are a VERY BAD DEAL for women.  Very bad.  We should be worshipped like actual gods since we have the ability to create life (at great personal cost), but instead we are shit on at every turn.  If you shit on me, I go on strike. 

But carry on about lead poisoning because I too am baffled as to why a large portion of the population is so completely insane; I just don’t think that choosing not to have kids is an example of bad decision making.

I know the default assumption is that most 'normal' women have maternal urges, and therefore the trend toward not having kids/not having as many must be due to something going wrong. My own default assumption is that far more women are totally 'neutral' or even naturally negative on maternal urges, but until the invention of reliable birth control that women actually could access on their own, they simply ended up stuck being mothers as a default b/c they had sex.

My suspicion is that most women actively do want sex, but that motherhood is much more of an accidental byproduct of that throughout history. Until recently. As soon as women were given the option to have sex but opt out of the consequences, while simultaneously being give the option to do a lot more self-actualization/careers, etc., then naturally a bunch of women noped straight out of parenting.

Right???  This is the most logical explanation.  If we assume that women are logical human beings who also have a sex drive, it makes perfect sense.  And guess what?  We are, and we do. I mean, if I had to go without sex or risk pregnancy every time I would probably take the risk, even though the consequences are gruesome and potentially deadly.  The sex drive is incredibly strong; the maternal drive is not.

Again, we should be worshipped like fucking GODS.  They should be praying to us to bring forth new life.  Begging us to do it.  But they aren’t, because they have contempt for us, and will try to force us instead while they lie to everyone about how this is our natural place and this is what we want.  We do not want this.

Kris

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2025, 07:04:56 PM »
A uniquely modern phenomenon is people - including stable couples - making the decision to not have kids so that they can have more money / stuff / luxury / recreation time.

It may seem judgemental to question any individual's very personal decision not to devote 2 decades of their life to wiping buts, mending cuts, and yelling at teenagers, but there is something interesting going on when consumerism is a stronger draw than an organism's reproductive drive for a very large portion of the population. Family lines representing a hundred thousand generations of struggle to survive and care for young are ending with an iPad, an Amazon account, and a luxury SUV.

[Snip]

Yeah, this is where you lost me.  I don't think it can be assumed that this is a primary reason for declining birth rates.  I don't know if data exists, but anecdotally I know of a number of other reasons couples we know have chosen not to have kids, including environmental (there was a whole other thread on this), political, no "calling" to have kids, etc., which decisions do not involve a desire for more money/stuff/luxury/recreation time.

Yeah, a lot of leaps of logic that I don't think really hold up.

Just a reminder that this "uniquely modern phenomenon" of stable couples choosing not to have kids is linked to the uniquely modern phenomenon of reliable birth control for women.  When we actually have the choice, any logical woman realizes that you get screwed over in so, so, so many ways if you choose to have kids, and you can have a very active sex life while having no desire to actually reproduce.  I would have to want kids very very badly in order for that to outweigh all the downsides not limited to but including having to pay out the nose for the privilege of pregnancy damage to my body (pelvic floor damage leading to incontinence, gestational diabetes, stomach muscle separation etc.), all the extra work that does tend to fall disproportionately on the woman, and severe limitations to my free time.  And I have a stable partner who is pretty great.  This is why they are trying to take away our choice.  They told themselves stories about how women are "naturally" nurturing and have these biological clocks and uncontrollable urges to have children, and it turns out that just isn't true.  Not any moreso than for men.  I actually expect men would want to have children more than women do because of some of the unique disadvantages that it entails for us.  I believe I've said this before, but fuck that, no thank you very much.

Exactly. This is the first time in recorded history where women can choose to have a life that does not involve subjugating themselves to a man and controlling whether sex results in pregnancy. This ain't about purchasing power for me. It's about me not wanting to do shit I don't want to do and actually being given the opportunity to say no to it.

Damn right.  This is not about capitalism.  It’s not about loving sex or not (ftr: love).  Idk how many times we have to point out that kids are a VERY BAD DEAL for women.  Very bad.  We should be worshipped like actual gods since we have the ability to create life (at great personal cost), but instead we are shit on at every turn.  If you shit on me, I go on strike. 

But carry on about lead poisoning because I too am baffled as to why a large portion of the population is so completely insane; I just don’t think that choosing not to have kids is an example of bad decision making.

I know the default assumption is that most 'normal' women have maternal urges, and therefore the trend toward not having kids/not having as many must be due to something going wrong. My own default assumption is that far more women are totally 'neutral' or even naturally negative on maternal urges, but until the invention of reliable birth control that women actually could access on their own, they simply ended up stuck being mothers as a default b/c they had sex.

My suspicion is that most women actively do want sex, but that motherhood is much more of an accidental byproduct of that throughout history. Until recently. As soon as women were given the option to have sex but opt out of the consequences, while simultaneously being give the option to do a lot more self-actualization/careers, etc., then naturally a bunch of women noped straight out of parenting.

Right???  This is the most logical explanation.  If we assume that women are logical human beings who also have a sex drive, it makes perfect sense.  And guess what?  We are, and we do. I mean, if I had to go without sex or risk pregnancy every time I would probably take the risk, even though the consequences are gruesome and potentially deadly.  The sex drive is incredibly strong; the maternal drive is not.

Again, we should be worshipped like fucking GODS.  They should be praying to us to bring forth new life.  Begging us to do it.  But they aren’t, because they have contempt for us, and will try to force us instead while they lie to everyone about how this is our natural place and this is what we want.  We do not want this.

It’s kinda crazy to me that men wanna have sex but don’t necessarily want that sex to result in parenthood… and yet, they struggle mightily to understand that women might kinda feel the same way.

jrhampt

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2025, 07:49:40 PM »
^^^^yes!!!  Like, imagine that we are people, *just like you*!  We love sex.  Don’t love getting pregnant.  This is NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

bmjohnson35

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2025, 08:01:23 PM »
A uniquely modern phenomenon is people - including stable couples - making the decision to not have kids so that they can have more money / stuff / luxury / recreation time.

It may seem judgemental to question any individual's very personal decision not to devote 2 decades of their life to wiping buts, mending cuts, and yelling at teenagers, but there is something interesting going on when consumerism is a stronger draw than an organism's reproductive drive for a very large portion of the population. Family lines representing a hundred thousand generations of struggle to survive and care for young are ending with an iPad, an Amazon account, and a luxury SUV.

[Snip]

Yeah, this is where you lost me.  I don't think it can be assumed that this is a primary reason for declining birth rates.  I don't know if data exists, but anecdotally I know of a number of other reasons couples we know have chosen not to have kids, including environmental (there was a whole other thread on this), political, no "calling" to have kids, etc., which decisions do not involve a desire for more money/stuff/luxury/recreation time.

Yeah, a lot of leaps of logic that I don't think really hold up.

Just a reminder that this "uniquely modern phenomenon" of stable couples choosing not to have kids is linked to the uniquely modern phenomenon of reliable birth control for women.  When we actually have the choice, any logical woman realizes that you get screwed over in so, so, so many ways if you choose to have kids, and you can have a very active sex life while having no desire to actually reproduce.  I would have to want kids very very badly in order for that to outweigh all the downsides not limited to but including having to pay out the nose for the privilege of pregnancy damage to my body (pelvic floor damage leading to incontinence, gestational diabetes, stomach muscle separation etc.), all the extra work that does tend to fall disproportionately on the woman, and severe limitations to my free time.  And I have a stable partner who is pretty great.  This is why they are trying to take away our choice.  They told themselves stories about how women are "naturally" nurturing and have these biological clocks and uncontrollable urges to have children, and it turns out that just isn't true.  Not any moreso than for men.  I actually expect men would want to have children more than women do because of some of the unique disadvantages that it entails for us.  I believe I've said this before, but fuck that, no thank you very much.

Exactly. This is the first time in recorded history where women can choose to have a life that does not involve subjugating themselves to a man and controlling whether sex results in pregnancy. This ain't about purchasing power for me. It's about me not wanting to do shit I don't want to do and actually being given the opportunity to say no to it.

Damn right.  This is not about capitalism.  It’s not about loving sex or not (ftr: love).  Idk how many times we have to point out that kids are a VERY BAD DEAL for women.  Very bad.  We should be worshipped like actual gods since we have the ability to create life (at great personal cost), but instead we are shit on at every turn.  If you shit on me, I go on strike. 

But carry on about lead poisoning because I too am baffled as to why a large portion of the population is so completely insane; I just don’t think that choosing not to have kids is an example of bad decision making.

I know the default assumption is that most 'normal' women have maternal urges, and therefore the trend toward not having kids/not having as many must be due to something going wrong. My own default assumption is that far more women are totally 'neutral' or even naturally negative on maternal urges, but until the invention of reliable birth control that women actually could access on their own, they simply ended up stuck being mothers as a default b/c they had sex.

My suspicion is that most women actively do want sex, but that motherhood is much more of an accidental byproduct of that throughout history. Until recently. As soon as women were given the option to have sex but opt out of the consequences, while simultaneously being give the option to do a lot more self-actualization/careers, etc., then naturally a bunch of women noped straight out of parenting.

Right???  This is the most logical explanation.  If we assume that women are logical human beings who also have a sex drive, it makes perfect sense.  And guess what?  We are, and we do. I mean, if I had to go without sex or risk pregnancy every time I would probably take the risk, even though the consequences are gruesome and potentially deadly.  The sex drive is incredibly strong; the maternal drive is not.

Again, we should be worshipped like fucking GODS.  They should be praying to us to bring forth new life.  Begging us to do it.  But they aren’t, because they have contempt for us, and will try to force us instead while they lie to everyone about how this is our natural place and this is what we want.  We do not want this.

It’s kinda crazy to me that men wanna have sex but don’t necessarily want that sex to result in parenthood… and yet, they struggle mightily to understand that women might kinda feel the same way.

It's not crazy, it's a patriarchal view of society.  I'm not saying I agree with it.  It's also classic "do as I say, not as I do".  Effective and easily accessible birth control has been around for less than 100 years.  It will take a while to undo this line of thinking. I understand that you are generalizing, but not all men think this way, but many do. What I do find crazy is how many woman still have these views, but my experience is that it's often tied to what they learned from religion, which is also generally patriarchal. 

Kris

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2025, 08:09:48 PM »
A uniquely modern phenomenon is people - including stable couples - making the decision to not have kids so that they can have more money / stuff / luxury / recreation time.

It may seem judgemental to question any individual's very personal decision not to devote 2 decades of their life to wiping buts, mending cuts, and yelling at teenagers, but there is something interesting going on when consumerism is a stronger draw than an organism's reproductive drive for a very large portion of the population. Family lines representing a hundred thousand generations of struggle to survive and care for young are ending with an iPad, an Amazon account, and a luxury SUV.

[Snip]

Yeah, this is where you lost me.  I don't think it can be assumed that this is a primary reason for declining birth rates.  I don't know if data exists, but anecdotally I know of a number of other reasons couples we know have chosen not to have kids, including environmental (there was a whole other thread on this), political, no "calling" to have kids, etc., which decisions do not involve a desire for more money/stuff/luxury/recreation time.

Yeah, a lot of leaps of logic that I don't think really hold up.

Just a reminder that this "uniquely modern phenomenon" of stable couples choosing not to have kids is linked to the uniquely modern phenomenon of reliable birth control for women.  When we actually have the choice, any logical woman realizes that you get screwed over in so, so, so many ways if you choose to have kids, and you can have a very active sex life while having no desire to actually reproduce.  I would have to want kids very very badly in order for that to outweigh all the downsides not limited to but including having to pay out the nose for the privilege of pregnancy damage to my body (pelvic floor damage leading to incontinence, gestational diabetes, stomach muscle separation etc.), all the extra work that does tend to fall disproportionately on the woman, and severe limitations to my free time.  And I have a stable partner who is pretty great.  This is why they are trying to take away our choice.  They told themselves stories about how women are "naturally" nurturing and have these biological clocks and uncontrollable urges to have children, and it turns out that just isn't true.  Not any moreso than for men.  I actually expect men would want to have children more than women do because of some of the unique disadvantages that it entails for us.  I believe I've said this before, but fuck that, no thank you very much.

Exactly. This is the first time in recorded history where women can choose to have a life that does not involve subjugating themselves to a man and controlling whether sex results in pregnancy. This ain't about purchasing power for me. It's about me not wanting to do shit I don't want to do and actually being given the opportunity to say no to it.

Damn right.  This is not about capitalism.  It’s not about loving sex or not (ftr: love).  Idk how many times we have to point out that kids are a VERY BAD DEAL for women.  Very bad.  We should be worshipped like actual gods since we have the ability to create life (at great personal cost), but instead we are shit on at every turn.  If you shit on me, I go on strike. 

But carry on about lead poisoning because I too am baffled as to why a large portion of the population is so completely insane; I just don’t think that choosing not to have kids is an example of bad decision making.

I know the default assumption is that most 'normal' women have maternal urges, and therefore the trend toward not having kids/not having as many must be due to something going wrong. My own default assumption is that far more women are totally 'neutral' or even naturally negative on maternal urges, but until the invention of reliable birth control that women actually could access on their own, they simply ended up stuck being mothers as a default b/c they had sex.

My suspicion is that most women actively do want sex, but that motherhood is much more of an accidental byproduct of that throughout history. Until recently. As soon as women were given the option to have sex but opt out of the consequences, while simultaneously being give the option to do a lot more self-actualization/careers, etc., then naturally a bunch of women noped straight out of parenting.

Right???  This is the most logical explanation.  If we assume that women are logical human beings who also have a sex drive, it makes perfect sense.  And guess what?  We are, and we do. I mean, if I had to go without sex or risk pregnancy every time I would probably take the risk, even though the consequences are gruesome and potentially deadly.  The sex drive is incredibly strong; the maternal drive is not.

Again, we should be worshipped like fucking GODS.  They should be praying to us to bring forth new life.  Begging us to do it.  But they aren’t, because they have contempt for us, and will try to force us instead while they lie to everyone about how this is our natural place and this is what we want.  We do not want this.

It’s kinda crazy to me that men wanna have sex but don’t necessarily want that sex to result in parenthood… and yet, they struggle mightily to understand that women might kinda feel the same way.

It's not crazy, it's a patriarchal view of society.  I'm not saying I agree with it.  It's also classic "do as I say, not as I do".  Effective and easily accessible birth control has been around for less than 100 years.  It will take a while to undo this line of thinking. I understand that you are generalizing, but not all men think this way, but many do. What I do find crazy is how many woman still have these views, but my experience is that it's often tied to what they learned from religion, which is also generally patriarchal.

Sigh. I know not all men think this way. My husband does not, for example.

bmjohnson35

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2025, 08:20:26 PM »
Many good ideas listed already. Forgive me if I missed it, but the lack of personal responsibility in society may also be a contributing factor. When nothing is your fault, or to put it another way, you shouldn't have to think for yourself, why would you take the time and effort to try to think critically?

Fru-Gal

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2025, 08:56:32 PM »
The fact that more and more people who don’t want children can opt out of having them is a very good thing. Growing up an unwanted child, or being abused or trafficked, is terrible.

Perhaps nothing is more emblematic of the strange times we live in than the cases of “mommy bloggers” or influencers who cosplay being wonderful parents while in fact being abusers. Thankfully we’re also waking up to the idea that sharing video of your child for profit is not fair to the child.

bmjohnson35

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2025, 09:18:26 PM »
The fact that more and more people who don’t want children can opt out of having them is a very good thing. Growing up an unwanted child, or being abused or trafficked, is terrible.

Perhaps nothing is more emblematic of the strange times we live in than the cases of “mommy bloggers” or influencers who cosplay being wonderful parents while in fact being abusers. Thankfully we’re also waking up to the idea that sharing video of your child for profit is not fair to the child.

I've read and heard my share of doomsday predictions about population decline, but we have been adapting to an ever increasing population for some time and assuming we don't create or experience some other type of mass extinction event, I don't see why we can't adapt to a shrinking population as well.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2025, 07:23:04 AM »
Intelligence is correlated with higher income and life expectancy, and inversely correlated to being in prison or on welfare.  Unleaded gasoline, which removed a significant source of lead in the environment, was a huge win for society at large.  It is heartbreaking to think of all the ways lead still remains in the environment (lead pipes, leaded fuel for small planes).  Perhaps I'm biased in thinking the cost-benefit analysis would strongly favor removing lead, when the counter argument would be the lead is stable (until the water acidity changes and poisons everyone).

Metalcat

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2025, 09:23:10 AM »
I think some of the anti-intellectualism / anti-elitism comes from the fact that society is now a lot more competitive. In the past the rich were aristocrats and barons - they were born there, so they were privileged, and everyone knew it, and it was all a bit arbitrary and unfair but at least there was this noblesse oblige thing. These days those who achieve privilege like to believe (and in some cases rightfully so) that they earned it through merit, not birthright - and that makes the spoils of the victors and the bitterness of the losers all the more palpable. Hence why society is more divided and there is less trust overall.

As for kids, one of the things dissuading some of my friends from having kids is the fact that daycare here in Australia costs around $60k a year if you have two kids, unless of course you get the very generous government subsidy which brings it down to near-zero, and poor and middle-class parents get the subsidy but the rich miss out. That's a pretty big bill to pay and I don't think we should be forcing some parents to pay $60k a year more than other parents, regardless of their economic means.

I recommend reading the book The Meritocracy Trap, it covers a lot of this really thoroughly.

partgypsy

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2025, 01:14:46 PM »
As a woman I don't think I ever felt "neutral" about getting pregnant,having a baby. I either was scared to death of accidently getting pregnant. Or, once I hit a certain age knew I wanted to get pregnant and have a family. I don't think many women feel "neutral" about something that is that life changing.

wenchsenior

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2025, 01:24:43 PM »
As a woman I don't think I ever felt "neutral" about getting pregnant,having a baby. I either was scared to death of accidently getting pregnant. Or, once I hit a certain age knew I wanted to get pregnant and have a family. I don't think many women feel "neutral" about something that is that life changing.

Good point. Neutral the way you describe is not exactly what I meant. Ambivalent, or a variant on, "I'll see how I feel at some point eventually when I'm older/my life is more stable" is more what I meant.

In other words, most women I've ever met either actively didn't want kids or else fell into the 'meh' category of vaguely thinking it might be nice at some point when hypothetical future conditions supported it. Then at that point (if it arrives), they give it serious thought and at that point most who truly have the maternal drive end up being sure they want kids.

I just have never seen a strong inherent desire to parent from a very early age in most of my peer group, which one might assume is the default if women are 'biologically wired to want kids'. I can think of a few women that I know for sure felt that way from a young age, but not most. However, as you note, plenty of people decide later on for sure that they do want them.

I think societal messaging instructs women that they 'should' desire parenthood, which also might affect their thinking.

I just am very unconvinced that the desire to raise kids is as instinctual as societal messaging implies.

But it could just be that my peer group is unusual.

twinstudy

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2025, 01:44:29 PM »
Mostly posting to follow, but...

I agree with those who say that many of these things have existed forever (random 1890 antivax cartoon), they are part of human nature.  Education helped and when I was a kid very few families were antivax or anti fluoride.

To me it seems that social media has been an accelerant for vice and misinformation.

Just because something similar happened at one point in history doesn't mean that what's going on today isn't novel.

Yeah, in the late 1800s there was a big antivaccine movement.  But we had a pretty good run (since what, at least the thirties?)  were it wasn't an issue.  That it has come back, given the better access to information, and the better education that the average person has is very disturbing.

Oh we totally agree.  Education had been slowly working and people had adjusted.  But that movement was still around, underground (source: family). 

Along comes social media and suddenly it seems like the movement exploded.  It's almost like it was the catalyst needed for the movement to metastasize.

Same with a number of other vices*: gambling, casual racism, smoking, maybe eating disorders?  No hard data for this, just observation.

 
* alcohol use and risky sex has gone down though, so there is that.

When gambling went from being illegal to being promoted by governments as cash grabs something was lost.  Lottos like 6/49 are taxes on optimism and bad math skills.  And all the casinos.

Seriously, several years ago I heard (third-hand) about a guy in my area who cancelled the wedding when he found out his fiancee had $250,000 in gambling debt.

You have to tax something - it might as well be stupidity.

I'm not sure that I would call it optimism, either. Barack Obama was optimistic. Gamblers are not. They are deluded.


mtnrider

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2025, 03:09:23 PM »

When gambling went from being illegal to being promoted by governments as cash grabs something was lost.  Lottos like 6/49 are taxes on optimism and bad math skills.  And all the casinos.

Seriously, several years ago I heard (third-hand) about a guy in my area who cancelled the wedding when he found out his fiancee had $250,000 in gambling debt.

You have to tax something - it might as well be stupidity.

I'm not sure that I would call it optimism, either. Barack Obama was optimistic. Gamblers are not. They are deluded.

Also the effort needed to do gamble has come down a lot.  In the 1980s you'd have to talk to a bookie, often with the organized crime, to seriously bet on a game.  Or a numbers racket.  Then the state got into it.  And then casinos opened what seemed like every state.  And now you carry a casino and bookie in your pocket.

The average guy might be have been tempted to gamble in the 1980s, but didn't want to get involved with the mob.  Maybe he would go to Las Vegas every few years.  But it was limited due to availability.  Now if you have the impulse to gamble, you pick up your phone.  I'm glad I don't know anyone currently taking Pramipexole (linked to gambling disorders).

RetiredAt63

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2025, 03:57:05 PM »

When gambling went from being illegal to being promoted by governments as cash grabs something was lost.  Lottos like 6/49 are taxes on optimism and bad math skills.  And all the casinos.

Seriously, several years ago I heard (third-hand) about a guy in my area who cancelled the wedding when he found out his fiancee had $250,000 in gambling debt.

You have to tax something - it might as well be stupidity.

I'm not sure that I would call it optimism, either. Barack Obama was optimistic. Gamblers are not. They are deluded.

Also the effort needed to do gamble has come down a lot.  In the 1980s you'd have to talk to a bookie, often with the organized crime, to seriously bet on a game.  Or a numbers racket.  Then the state got into it.  And then casinos opened what seemed like every state.  And now you carry a casino and bookie in your pocket.

The average guy might be have been tempted to gamble in the 1980s, but didn't want to get involved with the mob.  Maybe he would go to Las Vegas every few years.  But it was limited due to availability.  Now if you have the impulse to gamble, you pick up your phone.  I'm glad I don't know anyone currently taking Pramipexole (linked to gambling disorders).

Exactly.  It has gone from illegal and difficult and a shameful vice to being easy and open and encouraged by the government.  And seriously, I am still flabbergasted that a young woman (20s) could rack up that much gambling debt.

I think some gamblers are nether optimistic or deluded.  They are desperate, and hope that the relatively small amount (I hope) they spend gambling can get them out of their financial holes.

It's a nice side business for the places that sell Lotto tickets, they get a % of the winnings on tickets bought at their stores.

Of course there are all the stories about people who blow big winnings, but DD knows someone who knows someone who bought a big winning ticket, and they were also the owners of a small store so they also sold the ticket, so extra money.  They did all the financially prudent things and are still fine several years later.

Metalcat

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2025, 04:53:51 AM »
As a woman I don't think I ever felt "neutral" about getting pregnant,having a baby. I either was scared to death of accidently getting pregnant. Or, once I hit a certain age knew I wanted to get pregnant and have a family. I don't think many women feel "neutral" about something that is that life changing.

Good point. Neutral the way you describe is not exactly what I meant. Ambivalent, or a variant on, "I'll see how I feel at some point eventually when I'm older/my life is more stable" is more what I meant.

In other words, most women I've ever met either actively didn't want kids or else fell into the 'meh' category of vaguely thinking it might be nice at some point when hypothetical future conditions supported it. Then at that point (if it arrives), they give it serious thought and at that point most who truly have the maternal drive end up being sure they want kids.

I just have never seen a strong inherent desire to parent from a very early age in most of my peer group, which one might assume is the default if women are 'biologically wired to want kids'. I can think of a few women that I know for sure felt that way from a young age, but not most. However, as you note, plenty of people decide later on for sure that they do want them.

I think societal messaging instructs women that they 'should' desire parenthood, which also might affect their thinking.

I just am very unconvinced that the desire to raise kids is as instinctual as societal messaging implies.

But it could just be that my peer group is unusual.

Your peer group is definitely unusual.

Social pressure and the female identity within a patriarchal society is a big driver, but there are *plenty* of women out there with very strong, innate urges to be mothers.

If you've ever seen a woman go through years of failed fertility treatments, you can see the visceral need of it very plainly, even when it goes against all of her other self-interests.

The biological "need" to have children for women is definitely overstated, there's no question. But I don't think your social circle represents the norm either.

jrhampt

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2025, 07:57:18 AM »
As a woman I don't think I ever felt "neutral" about getting pregnant,having a baby. I either was scared to death of accidently getting pregnant. Or, once I hit a certain age knew I wanted to get pregnant and have a family. I don't think many women feel "neutral" about something that is that life changing.

Good point. Neutral the way you describe is not exactly what I meant. Ambivalent, or a variant on, "I'll see how I feel at some point eventually when I'm older/my life is more stable" is more what I meant.

In other words, most women I've ever met either actively didn't want kids or else fell into the 'meh' category of vaguely thinking it might be nice at some point when hypothetical future conditions supported it. Then at that point (if it arrives), they give it serious thought and at that point most who truly have the maternal drive end up being sure they want kids.

I just have never seen a strong inherent desire to parent from a very early age in most of my peer group, which one might assume is the default if women are 'biologically wired to want kids'. I can think of a few women that I know for sure felt that way from a young age, but not most. However, as you note, plenty of people decide later on for sure that they do want them.

I think societal messaging instructs women that they 'should' desire parenthood, which also might affect their thinking.

I just am very unconvinced that the desire to raise kids is as instinctual as societal messaging implies.

But it could just be that my peer group is unusual.

Your peer group is definitely unusual.

Social pressure and the female identity within a patriarchal society is a big driver, but there are *plenty* of women out there with very strong, innate urges to be mothers.

If you've ever seen a woman go through years of failed fertility treatments, you can see the visceral need of it very plainly, even when it goes against all of her other self-interests.

The biological "need" to have children for women is definitely overstated, there's no question. But I don't think your social circle represents the norm either.


Interesting…my social circle is similar to wenchsenior’s.  Birds of a feather, I guess. 

wenchsenior

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2025, 09:19:07 AM »
As a woman I don't think I ever felt "neutral" about getting pregnant,having a baby. I either was scared to death of accidently getting pregnant. Or, once I hit a certain age knew I wanted to get pregnant and have a family. I don't think many women feel "neutral" about something that is that life changing.

Good point. Neutral the way you describe is not exactly what I meant. Ambivalent, or a variant on, "I'll see how I feel at some point eventually when I'm older/my life is more stable" is more what I meant.

In other words, most women I've ever met either actively didn't want kids or else fell into the 'meh' category of vaguely thinking it might be nice at some point when hypothetical future conditions supported it. Then at that point (if it arrives), they give it serious thought and at that point most who truly have the maternal drive end up being sure they want kids.

I just have never seen a strong inherent desire to parent from a very early age in most of my peer group, which one might assume is the default if women are 'biologically wired to want kids'. I can think of a few women that I know for sure felt that way from a young age, but not most. However, as you note, plenty of people decide later on for sure that they do want them.

I think societal messaging instructs women that they 'should' desire parenthood, which also might affect their thinking.

I just am very unconvinced that the desire to raise kids is as instinctual as societal messaging implies.

But it could just be that my peer group is unusual.

Your peer group is definitely unusual.

Social pressure and the female identity within a patriarchal society is a big driver, but there are *plenty* of women out there with very strong, innate urges to be mothers.

If you've ever seen a woman go through years of failed fertility treatments, you can see the visceral need of it very plainly, even when it goes against all of her other self-interests.

The biological "need" to have children for women is definitely overstated, there's no question. But I don't think your social circle represents the norm either.

Oh, I've definitely seen this in a few individuals that I know (meaning years of expensive fertility treatments and devastation at not being able to conceive), so I know how strong that drive is in some people.

And a few people I know have had strong desire to parent from a very young age (one of my best friends, for example).

It's just not been the 'default' for people I know throughout my life. Probably people who are super kid oriented do in fact seek each out socially, so that makes sense that my group would be more full of "yeah I guess I want this after evaluating all my options" or "meh" (my own mother would fall into this category...never had kids as a particular goal, ended up having them b/c it was the norm, and ended up happy that she had them) or "NO" than "OMG I MUST HAVE CHILDREN".
« Last Edit: March 09, 2025, 09:21:03 AM by wenchsenior »

Metalcat

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2025, 09:27:20 AM »
As a woman I don't think I ever felt "neutral" about getting pregnant,having a baby. I either was scared to death of accidently getting pregnant. Or, once I hit a certain age knew I wanted to get pregnant and have a family. I don't think many women feel "neutral" about something that is that life changing.

Good point. Neutral the way you describe is not exactly what I meant. Ambivalent, or a variant on, "I'll see how I feel at some point eventually when I'm older/my life is more stable" is more what I meant.

In other words, most women I've ever met either actively didn't want kids or else fell into the 'meh' category of vaguely thinking it might be nice at some point when hypothetical future conditions supported it. Then at that point (if it arrives), they give it serious thought and at that point most who truly have the maternal drive end up being sure they want kids.

I just have never seen a strong inherent desire to parent from a very early age in most of my peer group, which one might assume is the default if women are 'biologically wired to want kids'. I can think of a few women that I know for sure felt that way from a young age, but not most. However, as you note, plenty of people decide later on for sure that they do want them.

I think societal messaging instructs women that they 'should' desire parenthood, which also might affect their thinking.

I just am very unconvinced that the desire to raise kids is as instinctual as societal messaging implies.

But it could just be that my peer group is unusual.

Your peer group is definitely unusual.

Social pressure and the female identity within a patriarchal society is a big driver, but there are *plenty* of women out there with very strong, innate urges to be mothers.

If you've ever seen a woman go through years of failed fertility treatments, you can see the visceral need of it very plainly, even when it goes against all of her other self-interests.

The biological "need" to have children for women is definitely overstated, there's no question. But I don't think your social circle represents the norm either.

Oh, I've definitely seen this in a few individuals that I know (meaning years of expensive fertility treatments and devastation at not being able to conceive), so I know how strong that drive is in some people.

And a few people I know have had strong desire to parent from a very young age (one of my best friends, for example).

It's just not been the 'default' for people I know throughout my life. Probably people who are super kid oriented do in fact seek each out socially, so that makes sense that my group would be more full of "yeah I guess I want this after evaluating all my options" or "meh" (my own mother would fall into this category...never had kids as a particular goal, ended up having them b/c it was the norm, and ended up happy that she had them) or "NO" than "OMG I MUST HAVE CHILDREN".

Yeah, exactly. I remember the hardcore baby-wanters from my younger years and we were rarely good friends. I was more drawn to the ambitious, career oriented girls/women who were more ambivalent about children.

Then I became an elite professional and I was far, far more drawn to the moms because I was prioritizing work-life balance over career success at any cost, and so were the moms and wannabe-moms.

So most of my friends in my professional life were extremely, powerfully driven to have children despite it being a horrendous choice for their career trajectories, health, and even marriages.

DoubleDown

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2025, 07:18:34 PM »
On the original topic of poor decision-making, I saw an interesting article last week about research showing that AI chatbots were exceedingly more successful than humans at convincing conspiracy-believing people to drop their misguided beliefs. Experts demonstrating to the conspiracy thinkers how their beliefs were wrong were ineffective. Family members or friends explaining how their beliefs were wrong were ineffective. Even being shown undeniable, direct evidence proving that the conspiratorial beliefs were wrong were ineffective. But AI bots "trained" to talk to the conspiracy believers had an astounding success rate at convincing them they are wrong.

The researchers attribute the success of AI to two intertwined facets of conspiracy beliefs: the beliefs themselves, and "identity" with the beliefs (or with the groups of people that follow such beliefs). When you attempt to disprove a conspiracy, it tends to strip the believers of their identity. But people were far less threatened with losing this "identity" to an AI bot, because they trusted it (it's a chatbot, not a person with an agenda), and because it was trained to talk like them, and because it was deemed less likely to be part of a conspiracy itself. There was no loss of face in admitting you were wrong to an AI bot. That was the gist of it, at least as I understood it. The article was in the Washington Post, I don't have a link to share because A) I'm lazy; and B) it's probably behind a paywall. But. you know, google.

Poundwise

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2025, 10:12:57 PM »
That's really interesting!  It would be interesting to compare two groups of people talking to the same AI chatbot, one knowing they were talking to a chatbot, the other group thinking they were talking to humans.

ChpBstrd

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #76 on: March 10, 2025, 07:47:44 AM »
The researchers attribute the success of AI to two intertwined facets of conspiracy beliefs: the beliefs themselves, and "identity" with the beliefs (or with the groups of people that follow such beliefs). When you attempt to disprove a conspiracy, it tends to strip the believers of their identity. But people were far less threatened with losing this "identity" to an AI bot, because they trusted it (it's a chatbot, not a person with an agenda), and because it was trained to talk like them, and because it was deemed less likely to be part of a conspiracy itself. There was no loss of face in admitting you were wrong to an AI bot.
This is terrifying, because:
  • If the chatbot can talk people out of conspiracy theory beliefs, couldn't it also talk them into such beliefs?
  • People really think AI's don't have an agenda? WTF? Are they thought to be run by charities? Is technological illiteracy really this bad?
  • If billionaires own the chatbots people trust, and real humans cannot win arguments against chatbot information, then yea we're basically in an Orwell novel where democracy is technically impossible, and we just march in lockstep to what the billionaires want us to do/think.
  • Is it possible for people to obtain their "identity" from a chatbot? If so, how long until we humans are fighting wars on behalf of competing AI's, instead of competing human leaders and religions?

Scandium

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #77 on: March 10, 2025, 09:58:01 AM »
The researchers attribute the success of AI to two intertwined facets of conspiracy beliefs: the beliefs themselves, and "identity" with the beliefs (or with the groups of people that follow such beliefs). When you attempt to disprove a conspiracy, it tends to strip the believers of their identity. But people were far less threatened with losing this "identity" to an AI bot, because they trusted it (it's a chatbot, not a person with an agenda), and because it was trained to talk like them, and because it was deemed less likely to be part of a conspiracy itself. There was no loss of face in admitting you were wrong to an AI bot.
This is terrifying, because:
  • If the chatbot can talk people out of conspiracy theory beliefs, couldn't it also talk them into such beliefs?

No worried about that. The people who are ignorant and gullible enough to believe in conspiracies will find a way to do so no matter what. It's more an innate lack of proper critical thinking, not something that can "happen to you", and you "quit", like smoking.
And also why I think it's irrelevant that a chatbot can "talk someone out of" a conspiracy. They'll just find another one to believe in! None of these people believe in just one, they believe in many/most of them, often contradictory ones. The specifics and facts of the conspiracies doesn't matter, it's the comfort of the belief and sense of control. (similar to how religion is a psychological security blanket, the details don't matter)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2025, 11:14:39 AM by Scandium »

neo von retorch

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #78 on: March 10, 2025, 10:59:06 AM »
On the original topic of poor decision-making, I saw an interesting article last week about research showing that AI chatbots...

Not from last week, but relevant:

AI chatbots might be better at swaying conspiracy theorists than humans

Co-author Gordon Pennycook: "The work overturns a lot of how we thought about conspiracies."
Jennifer Ouellette – Sep 12, 2024

Fru-Gal

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #79 on: March 10, 2025, 11:37:07 AM »
For some reason this reminds me of therapists talking to patients with puppets. Maybe it’s as simple as getting people to create a little bit of distance from their thoughts as they marvel about the silly puppet or the magical AI?

DoubleDown

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2025, 11:47:20 AM »
That's really interesting!  It would be interesting to compare two groups of people talking to the same AI chatbot, one knowing they were talking to a chatbot, the other group thinking they were talking to humans.

That's a great idea, I hope these researchers try that out.

ChpBstrd

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2025, 12:54:52 PM »
For some reason this reminds me of therapists talking to patients with puppets. Maybe it’s as simple as getting people to create a little bit of distance from their thoughts as they marvel about the silly puppet or the magical AI?
I do recall from my university days, that when psychologists imposed a cognitive load on subjects, such as requiring them to memorize a number, the subjects were less inhibited in certain behaviors than the control group that did not carry a cognitive load. Inhibition is work, and a loaded-down brain can do less of it than an unburdened brain.

I cannot help but think about how many more steps it takes to communicate with another person or AI through a device than it takes to naturally talk to someone in your presence. Unlock phone. Angle screen to reduce glare. Keep in mind that 3 other apps have notifications up. Ignore the ding sound, but remember to check your texts later. Open app. Recall information about how to use the app. Compose content. Type content. Send. Look for feedback that the other entity is typing.

The inhibition process would be not believing everything your phone tells you.

Recent research indicates that the "the presence of a cell phone ... can be... distracting and have negative consequences in a social interaction. Results... provide further evidence that the 'mere presence' of a cell phone may be sufficiently distracting to produce diminished attention and deficits in task-performance, especially for tasks with greater attentional and cognitive demands"

So simply having a phone in your pocket or purse might reduce your ability to pay attention and perform tasks. Expand this observation to the entire population, and it's as if everyone took a drug that made them dumber. It's at least part of the story of how we came to live in a "uniquely stupid" era.

Fru-Gal

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2025, 12:59:23 PM »
The phone is a Skinner box.

GuitarStv

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2025, 01:52:31 PM »
Some of us recognized this a long time ago and never hopped onto the cell phone fad.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2025, 02:37:57 AM »
The phone is a Skinner box.
Some of us recognized this a long time ago and never hopped onto the cell phone fad.

Yes, those other people are fools!  Now let me wait to see what you two reply, on a forum where I login every day but can definitely stop anytime I want.

Fru-Gal

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2025, 09:44:40 AM »
Ha ha ha ha I’m not denying that I’m addicted.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2025, 05:14:31 PM by Fru-Gal »

ChpBstrd

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2025, 06:56:48 AM »
Ha ha ha ha I’m not denying that I’m addicted.
Yea, nobody said there was a choice. How exactly would Internet Anonymous notify people of meetings? Phone tree using flip phones?

GuitarStv

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2025, 08:03:32 AM »
Ha ha ha ha I’m not denying that I’m addicted.
Yea, nobody said there was a choice. How exactly would Internet Anonymous notify people of meetings? Phone tree using flip phones?

I can envision a digitally controlled firestarter and some accelerant to send out appropriate smoke signals.

reeshau

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2025, 12:01:54 PM »
Ha ha ha ha I’m not denying that I’m addicted.
Yea, nobody said there was a choice. How exactly would Internet Anonymous notify people of meetings? Phone tree using flip phones?

I can envision a digitally controlled firestarter and some accelerant to send out appropriate smoke signals.

....Seemingly-rational tweet sent from Elon's hacked X account...

jrhampt

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2025, 12:36:05 PM »
Ha ha ha ha I’m not denying that I’m addicted.
Yea, nobody said there was a choice. How exactly would Internet Anonymous notify people of meetings? Phone tree using flip phones?

I can envision a digitally controlled firestarter and some accelerant to send out appropriate smoke signals.

....Seemingly-rational tweet sent from Elon's hacked X account...

I mean, that's how they did it in LOTR, so...

GuitarStv

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Re: A crisis of poor decision making
« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2025, 01:19:04 PM »
Ha ha ha ha I’m not denying that I’m addicted.
Yea, nobody said there was a choice. How exactly would Internet Anonymous notify people of meetings? Phone tree using flip phones?

I can envision a digitally controlled firestarter and some accelerant to send out appropriate smoke signals.

....Seemingly-rational tweet sent from Elon's hacked X account...

I mean, that's how they did it in LOTR, so...

The dwarven digital infrastructure was vastly underestimated by the forces of Mordor.