Author Topic: 7 year relationship. No sexual desire. She wants to get married. Any Counselors?  (Read 31668 times)

zoochadookdook

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Thought experiment: if you two didn't live together but everything else was the same (no sex, no marriage path, etc.), would you still be in this relationship? Would she? Would you both drive across town to spend time together and drive home by yourselves several times a week for seven years with no progress on what's important to you? Would you stay exclusive or would you both continue to see other people?

In a way, it seems that living together has short-circuited this relationship more than anything else. When I was dating, I never wanted to move in with a guy because I knew it would be so hard (emotionally and logistically) to move out. Not living together gives you the clarity and maneuvering room to make good choices early on.


I should ask her. We've lived together quite a while and I think just the day to day existance has overridden our ideas that the other person will feel the same without talking about things.

Even this morning she mentioned that she never felt I was committed to the future-just the present.

BeanCounter

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Thought experiment: if you two didn't live together but everything else was the same (no sex, no marriage path, etc.), would you still be in this relationship? Would she? Would you both drive across town to spend time together and drive home by yourselves several times a week for seven years with no progress on what's important to you? Would you stay exclusive or would you both continue to see other people?

In a way, it seems that living together has short-circuited this relationship more than anything else. When I was dating, I never wanted to move in with a guy because I knew it would be so hard (emotionally and logistically) to move out. Not living together gives you the clarity and maneuvering room to make good choices early on.
This. 100% this.
When you choose not to live with each other before marriage (notice I didn't say not sleep together) you get to a point where you both say "this is silly, we have two places yet we're always together" or "I hate going home and being without you". You realize that you need to fix this by getting married and merge your whole life to one. Or maybe you don't sleep together before marriage because of your beliefs, then you usually want to sleep together so bad you hurry up and figure out how to get married and merge your whole life together.
Or you date and realize that you are actually pretty happy without that person or that you want to see what else is out there or your just not sure (which means you don't really want to be with that person). You breakup and move on.
You've merged everything together without the full commitment, and without sex and now you can't figure out how to unwind it. So your stuck trying to work on something that isn't going to work because unwinding it is hard.
No relationship in your twenties should require this much work.

zoochadookdook

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I guess we have just continued on it being on different pages. I feel like a trial period apart isn't helping though. We need to decide to seperate or pursue sex positive consoling/some kind of serious therapy.

Cassie

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We donít need to decide anything. You need to grow a set and breakup.

former player

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We donít need to decide anything. You need to grow a set and breakup.
If it were that easy for OP he would have done so pages ago.  Although he is meticulous in replying to comments he has totally ignored my previous post suggesting in part that his ex/roommate is gaslighting him, which makes me think that there is some level of abuse going on here, at least emotionally, which he is unable or unwilling to acknowledge.  If I'm right, saying he needs to grow a set, which is the right answer if he is not under some sort of abuse, probably isn't going to work.

We don't know much about OP's ex/roommate: OP has been with this woman since she was a teenager, she works in early years childcare and doesn't earn much, and she lives rent free in his house and his head.  I suspect that she probably presents herself to the world as a sweet young woman.  That does not prevent her from being deviously and selfishly manipulative of others, but it does make it harder for others to recognise that fact and act on it.

I hope OP takes up the suggestion of an individual counsellor for himself alone, and that he minimises contact with his ex/roommate in the meantime.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 04:21:21 AM by former player »

RetiredAt63

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Thought experiment: if you two didn't live together but everything else was the same (no sex, no marriage path, etc.), would you still be in this relationship? Would she? Would you both drive across town to spend time together and drive home by yourselves several times a week for seven years with no progress on what's important to you? Would you stay exclusive or would you both continue to see other people?

In a way, it seems that living together has short-circuited this relationship more than anything else. When I was dating, I never wanted to move in with a guy because I knew it would be so hard (emotionally and logistically) to move out. Not living together gives you the clarity and maneuvering room to make good choices early on.

^^^This.  DD and S-i-L were  taking turns traveling between cities on weekends, to see each other.  After several months they both knew that  they were committed to each other and made plans for one to move to the other's city.

S-i-L once told me that it was a really good way to test how strong the commitment was - if either had found reasons to miss a weekend, on a consistent basis, they would have known the relationship wasn't strong enough to develop any further.

zoochadookdook

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Sorry was trying to read and respond on my phone the past few days so it's been a bit trickier (it lags quite a bit in the input realm for whatever reason).

We spoke last night (one of the dogs is sick so I wanted her to come check on him in the morning). I basically gently restated we want different things and neither of us is going to be happy unless weget what we perceive we want. She's staying at her dads still and thinks we should spend this time apart at least.

She did say if we do break up I need to understand it's not like our friends (x, y-they broke up for 3 years in college and ended up married afterward). She did say it's not engagement/marriage but a commitment to working towards those when I asked her to clarify what she meant by the commitment to the future. She's hoping I can decide on my own if I do want to have children or pursue marriage at some point in my life and that this break will let me better decide these things. I also asked her how she wanted to work on things as the only ideas I had outside of one of us making a hard compromise is individual counseling?

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That it won't be like your friends and getting back together? That's good. You need the space to grow into the person you are becoming. You need 6 months minimum of no contact with her. Not socially, not on the phone, not texting/Instagram/Snapchat/etc.

I used a similar line on an ex. Told him that I wouldn't do the boomerang thing and done was done. It was as manipulative then as it is now. It's testing your resolve. Thank goodness my ex still wanted to break it off. He married the next girl he dated and now has kids.

Being alone was scary and more than once I worried that I'd end up alone with 20 cats. But I grew over the years to be proud of the person I am today. I dated enough that when I met my husband, it felt right. He's the type of person that I could grow with. He was similarly lukewarm to meh on the idea of kids.

This thread has made me so grateful that the original ex broke it off with me. I never would have been strong enough.

bwall

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This thread has made me so grateful ....

I find reading this thread to be very therapeutic.

I was in a relationship similar to OP, some differences of course, and I agonized for much longer than I ever should have about ending it. Finally I did, but with a weird combination of emotions. Reading this thread helps me see my prior relationship in the light that I could never see it in at the time.

Malkynn

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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.

Watch out for that.

zoochadookdook

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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.

Watch out for that.

I'm keeping them defined. I want to know exactly how she wants to work on it from her perspective if we do try to. I've explained how we can't work on intimacy without her standards and if her standard of "future commitment" is only engagement/marriage I can not work on that. I'm being as realistic as possible when I tell her we both want something different-it's not a matter of if we can love eachother more or such at this point which limits our plausible actions to move forward without inducing more pressure/compromises.

I'm not interested in other people and that's why it's weird. Like I know if you and someone else don't share and can't compromise on large goals and standards you shouldn't stay together-but there's this weird feeling of staying and being is easier than leaving because of the comfort. I can't imagine feeling ok with her marrying someone else and missing out on the things we like about eachother-but it's also not something I can lock myself into feeling is ok between us right now.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 08:12:34 AM by zoochadookdook »

Malkynn

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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.

Watch out for that.

I'm keeping them defined.
I want to know exactly how she wants to work on it from her perspective if we do try to. I've explained how we can't work on intimacy without her standards and if her standard of "future commitment" is only engagement/marriage I can not work on that. I'm being as realistic as possible when I tell her we both want something different-it's not a matter of if we can love eachother more or such at this point which limits our plausible actions to move forward without inducing more pressure/compromises.

I'm not interested in other people and that's why it's weird. Like I know if you and someone else don't share and can't compromise on large goals and standards you shouldn't stay together-but there's this weird feeling of staying and being is easier than leaving because of the comfort. I can't imagine feeling ok with her marrying someone else and missing out on the things we like about eachother-but it's also not something I can lock myself into feeling is ok between us right now.

No you aren't.

Weeks ago she was demanding and expecting a ring, now she's saying that she's okay without the ring as long as you are working "towards" the ring??

That's moving the goal posts. She's accepting that you rejected her first ultimatum and is now changing her negotiating tactic.

Make no mistake though, she hasn't dropper her eye from the prize and she will stay just as fixated on getting engaged no matter what "compromises" she agrees to.
She will not stop pushing you until you propose, she'll just find new and creative ways to try and convince you.

She thinks she needs this. She's just smart enough to know that she needs to back off the direct demand a little for now because it's not getting her the outcome that she's so pathologically fixated on.

If she thought she could do something to get you to propose right now, she would do it. She's not okay not getting engaged right now, she's just saying what she has to because she overplayed her first hand.

As for you, of course staying feels easier. Change always feels harder even if that change is for the better. Inertia is a powerful force.

Of course you don't want to lose what you enjoy about being with her. It would be crazy not to.

Of course you aren't focused on other people, because this isn't about other people. That just makes sense.

Of course it hurts to imagine her marrying someone else, she's been your life partner for a very very long time, your ENTIRE adult life basically.

It would be really weird if leaving her was easy.
...but everything worth doing is hard, and often the right thing to do doesn't feel very right at all.

Omy

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Was your sex life together (before you cheated) good for both of you? Or was she going through the motions? Infidelity doesn't usually occur if your needs are being met and you are committed to your relationship.

It's inconceivable to me that a young, healthy male would spend 6 years abstaining in order to atone for his sin. It appears that you are still being punished for the infidelity and that you will never be forgiven or fully trusted again.

Once trust is lost, it's really hard to bring it back. If she can't trust you after 6 years of abstinence, I don't see how engagement or marriage is going to magically fix everything.

If she is serious about working on the relationship, she's the one who needs to do the work to determine if there is a physical or emotional reason that she has no sex drive. Until then, your relationship is at an impasse because you want fundamentally different things - and one person will be forced to give in completely for the relationship to continue.


Mmm_Donuts

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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.

Watch out for that.

I'm not interested in other people and that's why it's weird. Like I know if you and someone else don't share and can't compromise on large goals and standards you shouldn't stay together-but there's this weird feeling of staying and being is easier than leaving because of the comfort. I can't imagine feeling ok with her marrying someone else and missing out on the things we like about eachother-but it's also not something I can lock myself into feeling is ok between us right now.

It sounds like youíve been in an unhealthy codependent relationship for these 7 years. You canít expect to suddenly be interested in other people, or to even know what a healthy relationship looks like. You havenít left your first relationship yet!

Iím not sure why youíre expecting everything to happen all at once. First you have to go through the breakup, then the healing and being alone and recovering / rediscovering your needs and wants. This all takes time! Then maybe youíll meet the love of your life or maybe it will take a couple of tries. You wonít know until you get there. But you have to take one step at a time before the next step can unfold. Step one is to go through the breakup. Thereís no other solution here since you are at an impasse and are clearly incompatible. I know how hard it is but all you are currently doing is kicking the can down the road.

Maybe because you both are kids of divorced parents you see breakups as giving up. But theyíre not. When youíre in a bad relationship, itís the opposite of giving up. Struggling through an impasse is not a valiant show of love - the valiant, difficult, most healthy thing to do is break up and move on.

Villanelle

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Of course it feels easier and more comfortable to stay.  Given where we are posting, I think money can be an apt comparison.  It's easier and more comfortable for someone to keep spending 98% (or 105%) of their income.  It's easier to keep getting Starbucks every morning and to keep driving a million millions in a giant SUV and to spend $1000 on grocery delivery very month.  It's so much easier.  But I'm assuming you know that this doesn't mean the decision to keep living like that is a better one, "Better" in any way other than easy and comfortable.  Your relationship is the same.  It's easier to stay because there's nothing horrific about it.  But that is a depressingly low bar for you (and for her).  It's clearly not working.  It's had seven years to work.  At one point, it was broken enough that you even cheated on her.  (I'm not saying that no relationship can recover from cheating.  But in the greater context here, it's yet another sign that this relationship with this person just isn't enough for you.) 

And I do think she's manipulating you.  You can't see if because you care for her and have generally positive feelings toward her, and because you feel guilty for considering something that will make her sad and disappointed.  But the moving of the goal posts (which she absolutely has done, even though now you try to explain that she hasn't--it was "ring" and when that didn't work it was "moving toward a ring"), the guilting you that you haven't tried everything (what exactly would be "everything" or "enough" in her book?  Can she even define that?  I suspect the real answer is that nothing will be enough unless and until it leads to you walking down the altar.  There is no scenario where she is going to feel you tried hard enough if the final outcome isn't exactly what SHE wants.)  There's the withholding of sex, which, the more you post about her, starts to seem like a manipulation tactic (one that is failing, so I wouldn't be surprised if she caves soon when she realizes she needs a new approach). 

So it's time to do the equivalent of cutting the grocery bill and downgrading the car.  Make the uncomfortable choice that is none the less the right choice.  Because you are in a hair-on-fire-emergency, my friend. 

Kris

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And I do think she's manipulating you.  You can't see if because you care for her and have generally positive feelings toward her, and because you feel guilty for considering something that will make her sad and disappointed.  But the moving of the goal posts (which she absolutely has done, even though now you try to explain that she hasn't--it was "ring" and when that didn't work it was "moving toward a ring"), the guilting you that you haven't tried everything (what exactly would be "everything" or "enough" in her book?  Can she even define that?  I suspect the real answer is that nothing will be enough unless and until it leads to you walking down the altar.  There is no scenario where she is going to feel you tried hard enough if the final outcome isn't exactly what SHE wants.)  There's the withholding of sex, which, the more you post about her, starts to seem like a manipulation tactic (one that is failing, so I wouldn't be surprised if she caves soon when she realizes she needs a new approach). 


I agree. It's possible that as a last-ditch effort, if and when she realizes that nothing else will work, she'll have sex with OP and then try to make him feel so guilty that he'll propose because now he feels obligated since she did it "for him." Sex would become a quid pro quo: I have sex with you, you give me the ring. Especially because she has made it abundantly clear through this whole thing that she is kind of holding sex out as a reward to him for proposing (even if she hasn't said it in those words). She's tied sex and engagement together so tightly that this final slight of hand might be the last card she is keeping in her pocket: instead of ring gives you sex, now it's sex gives me ring.

zoochadookdook

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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.

Kris

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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.

I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.

Cool Friend

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I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such.

But you both already have a pretty clear idea of what kind of relationship you want.  Neither of you seem confused about it; that's not the issue.  The issue is you both need something the other person is unable to give, which is why you're incompatible.

zoochadookdook

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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.

I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.

Right and I want to hear it out so I can explain I can't "try harder" be be engaged. She's is particular that I do some self searching in if I want marraige or kids ever at least. The best I've come up with is I'm not opposed to either but financially both are scary and I value financial stability. Marraige because divorce happens and kids because they cost a shit ton.


sol

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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.

I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.

If she was serious about "trying more" then she could offer to have sex with you ever day for the next month.  That would be her actually trying something, rather than demanding that you do all of the trying while she sits back and gloats.

I think you're fucked, dude.  I'm sorry that you're trapped in a bad relationship.  Most of us have been there at some point in our lives and there's just no easy way out of it.  So we all take the hard way, because it's the only way.

But, having been through this particular dark tunnel before, I can promise you that you will be infinitely happier when you come out the far side.  One day, you will look back on this situation and just shake your head in disbelief that you ever even considered staying in such a toxic and unhealthy situation.  It will be obvious to you that you're both better off with other people, and you will be able to have a bittersweet laugh over how foolishly naive you were.  At least, that's been my experience looking back from your future.

tyort1

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Often, love is not enough particularly in long term relationships where there are some fundamental differences. 

The good news is that it's actually easy to find love.  I've been in "true love" at least 3 times in my life.  We're hard wired to find love. 

So if you're afraid of loss (ie, "Oh no I'm going to lose someone I love"), that's true, you are.  But the good news is that you will definitely find love again, and next time you'll know better how to keep the relationship healthy from the beginning.

former player

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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.


I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.

Right and I want to hear it out so I can explain I can't "try harder" be be engaged. She's is particular that I do some self searching in if I want marraige or kids ever at least. The best I've come up with is I'm not opposed to either but financially both are scary and I value financial stability. Marraige because divorce happens and kids because they cost a shit ton.
If you want arguments against having kids then try this link to the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement -  http://www.vhemt.org/.  But the argument isn't really about whether you want to get married or to have kids, and that's not what you have to argue here, it's the much more specific issue that you don't want to get married to her or have kids with her - which doesn't need any reasons at all other than that's not what you want.

I would strongly counsel against your getting into any more debates with this person - nothing you can now say is either going to change her mind or stop her from trying to get you to change yours.  You've done nothing but "hear her out" all the time this thread has been going, to exactly nil progress - because progress is not possible.  Opening another discussion with her just gives her further opportunities to work on getting you to change your mind, to the detriment of both of you - because giving her all these opportunities to manipulate your feelings is as bad for her as it is for you.

Edited to add: "No" is a complete sentence.  Please practice saying it and then put it into practice.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 10:42:16 AM by former player »

Cool Friend

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Yeah it's pretty telling that the only things we've really heard from her are 1) your needs aren't as important as her needs, 2) if you don't give her what she wants unconditionally, you won't have "tried" everything and the failure of the relationship will be your fault, and 3) you will always owe her a guilt-debt because of a teenage infidelity that happened 7 years ago.


partgypsy

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One thing I do think would be helpful, is getting one or two individual counseling sessions in during this time, and hopefully continue them.

I do think it is a sign of your subconscious, that you don't like the idea of marriage and/or kids. Sure there are many people including women who have known their whole life that they didn't want kids, and lived that way.
But in your case I think it is inner voice talking to you.
No one is ever 100% ready to get married (because it is such a big decision). The same thing about kids, even if you WANT kids it is still a scary thing. However despite that my marriage ended badly, when we got to that point in our relationship where the next natural step was getting married, , my ex was psyched! He was the one calming me down when we were holding hands together in front of the pastor, with silly grins on our faces. In turn, sure we were nervous, but we were both EXCITED at the prospect of having a kid together. It was like we were embarking on a big adventure. So if neither of those things sparks some kind of flame within your heart when you think of her, that's a sign.

Her pushing you on this is not fair. The issue is you both went 7 years without really communicating what your wants and needs and dealbreakers are. It's BOTH of your fault that that happened. Now that you are talking about it, even went to sessions, you have uncovered some basic incompatibility/deal breakers between the two of you. That is NEITHER of your faults, it just is. It is also clear that neither of you are willing to bend on your deal breakers. And that's OK. But more conversations or "working" on it, is not going to change that. She should understand that and she is deliberately refusing to.

Breaking up will be hard. It will hurt. I don't agree this is an "abusive" situation though it could turn into that if you stay in it. Despite everything you both have a lot of history and lives shared together that will need to be unwound. So it will be hard, even if it is the right thing to do. Her trying to force it will only make you lose respect for her, yourself, or both.

If she is the decent person you think she is, while she may cry and hate you now, years from now she will totally understand. But not while you are "in the thick of it". 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 11:39:15 AM by partgypsy »

zoochadookdook

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One thing I do think would be helpful, is getting one or two individual counseling sessions in during this time, and hopefully continue them.

I do think it is a sign of your subconscious, that you don't like the idea of marriage and/or kids. Sure there are many people including women who have known their whole life that they didn't want kids, and lived that way.
But in your case I think it is inner voice talking to you.
No one is ever 100% ready to get married (because it is such a big decision). The same thing about kids, even if you WANT kids it is still a scary thing. However despite that my marriage ended badly, when we got to that point in our relationship where the next natural step was getting married, , my ex was psyched! He was the one calming me down when we were holding hands together in front of the pastor, with silly grins on our faces. In turn, sure we were nervous, but we were both EXCITED at the prospect of having a kid together. It was like we were embarking on a big adventure we were doing together. So if neither of those things sparks some kind of flame within your heart when you think of her, that's a sign.

Her pushing you on this is not fair. The issue is you went 7 years without really communicating what your wants and needs and dealbreakers are. It's BOTH of your fault that that happened. Now that you are talking about it, even went to sessions, you have uncovered some basic incompatibility/deal breakers between the two of you. That is NEITHER of your faults, it just is. It is also clear that neither of you are willing to bend on your deal breakers. And that's OK. But more conversations or "working" on it, is not going to change that. She should understand that and she is deliberately refusing to.

Breaking up will be hard. It will hurt. I don't agree this is an "abusive" situation though it could turn into that if you stay in it. Despite everything you both have a lot of history and lives shared together that will need to be unwound. So it will be hard, even if it is the right thing to do. Her trying to force it will only make you lose respect for her, or yourself, or both.

If she is the decent person you think she is, while she may cry and hate you now, years from now she will totally understand. But not while you are "in the thick of it".

I'm definitely going to tell her I think we should both go to an individual counselor. I don't think time apart is going to change our fundamental values and if she doesn't then what does she expect exactly will change? I don't know how keen she'd be based on our relationship conseling results but if i paid for it she'd probably go.

zoochadookdook

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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.


I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.

Right and I want to hear it out so I can explain I can't "try harder" be be engaged. She's is particular that I do some self searching in if I want marraige or kids ever at least. The best I've come up with is I'm not opposed to either but financially both are scary and I value financial stability. Marraige because divorce happens and kids because they cost a shit ton.
If you want arguments against having kids then try this link to the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement -  http://www.vhemt.org/.  But the argument isn't really about whether you want to get married or to have kids, and that's not what you have to argue here, it's the much more specific issue that you don't want to get married to her or have kids with her - which doesn't need any reasons at all other than that's not what you want.

I would strongly counsel against your getting into any more debates with this person - nothing you can now say is either going to change her mind or stop her from trying to get you to change yours.  You've done nothing but "hear her out" all the time this thread has been going, to exactly nil progress - because progress is not possible.  Opening another discussion with her just gives her further opportunities to work on getting you to change your mind, to the detriment of both of you - because giving her all these opportunities to manipulate your feelings is as bad for her as it is for you.

Edited to add: "No" is a complete sentence.  Please practice saying it and then put it into practice.

Yeah I think we're over debating as we see each other side to some degree. I don't know if I want to get married or have kids with anyone-if it were someone it would be her but as I said-financially both of those are terrifying and I value my ability to take care of myself/am focused on my career/business development. She sees that as "i don't want a future with her because if I did it wouldn't matter what else we did in the meantime"

Milizard

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I think that you do know what you want: you want to be with someone who wants to be with you sexually.  She is trying to turn the responsibility for that back onto you by  behaving in a way that might change her.  She really doesn't seem very concerned about giving you what you want/need in this relationship--she continues to focus it back on her own wants/needs.  It is perfectly valid for her not to change herself, but then you reach the very definition of incompatibility.

zoochadookdook

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At this point I understand why our values don't work. I can suggest we go to individual counseling while we're apart but that's going to be the only way we can articulate and understand our own wants better. I know that we're 99.99% breaking up and it sucks.

jps

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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.

zoochadookdook

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I think that you do know what you want: you want to be with someone who wants to be with you sexually.  She is trying to turn the responsibility for that back onto you by  behaving in a way that might change her.  She really doesn't seem very concerned about giving you what you want/need in this relationship--she continues to focus it back on her own wants/needs.  It is perfectly valid for her not to change herself, but then you reach the very definition of incompatibility.

It really is funny though-with how much I want that in a relationship or have put value on-I don't really want to talk to girls/find a partner in that way. I know some people are aching to get out of relationships because they've just disconnected for so long that it seems the logical step to move to the next but I guess I don't operate like that. This has shown me how much sex can disconnect an aspect of a relationship/how it can be misinterpreted or mismatched in multiple ways and it's just crazy how much I don't get about human behaviors or emotions.

zoochadookdook

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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.

I understand that everyone has advice. Whether or not it's advice I want to hear or not isn't relevent because I obviously wanted to hear all sorts of opinions by approaching a public forum. No one here has seen or experienced my relationship from any other perspective than what I've conveyed and that's what I was looking for.

I know it has to happen and why; I don't want it to happen. She's going to be more hurt than I will; I can already tell based on how much more she had thought forwards and planned a future around and that sucks.

Cool Friend

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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.

+10000

Also, completely normal that you don't feel eager or even ready to jump back into dating.  That will come in time.

Linea_Norway

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Why don't you just pay for your own councelling session. She already knows what she wants and you are already paying so much for her. Don't waste your money on it.

She as a woman is approaching the age at which she best can get pregnant and produce healthy babies. She wants a husband to produce that, within a year or maybe two and who will maintain her financially, hencevthe marriage/commitment. I don't think she would change her mind about that in a councelling session.

It still sounds to me that you want her to break up, instead of you doing it yourself. But for her, there are good incentives for staying together: she gets financial help, you are apparently good husband material and you accept her low libido, or at least have done so for 7 years. She also wouldn't have to start over, looking for a new husband candidate.

My advice is that you try to live apart for half a year or so. And you in your housem she somewhere else. Also, if you decide to send her away from your house, don't finance her new place. She has parents, she won't be living on the street.

LadyMuMu

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Do NOT pay for her counseling. Part of "doing everything to see if we can work this out" is her finding, paying, and heeding her own counselor/advisor/clergy/etc. To pay for her counseling would be to take one step back towards the quicksand of enmeshment.

zoochadookdook

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Do NOT pay for her counseling. Part of "doing everything to see if we can work this out" is her finding, paying, and heeding her own counselor/advisor/clergy/etc. To pay for her counseling would be to take one step back towards the quicksand of enmeshment.

I can suggest she goes at least. I intend on going.

zoochadookdook

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Why don't you just pay for your own councelling session. She already knows what she wants and you are already paying so much for her. Don't waste your money on it.

She as a woman is approaching the age at which she best can get pregnant and produce healthy babies. She wants a husband to produce that, within a year or maybe two and who will maintain her financially, hencevthe marriage/commitment. I don't think she would change her mind about that in a councelling session.

It still sounds to me that you want her to break up, instead of you doing it yourself. But for her, there are good incentives for staying together: she gets financial help, you are apparently good husband material and you accept her low libido, or at least have done so for 7 years. She also wouldn't have to start over, looking for a new husband candidate.

My advice is that you try to live apart for half a year or so. And you in your housem she somewhere else. Also, if you decide to send her away from your house, don't finance her new place. She has parents, she won't be living on the street.

I think that individual sessions would benefit us both. Obviously, we have some codependency tendencies and ability to weather all sorts of fallacies. I think to her a breakup means that's it at this point. I brought up the example of some of our friends who had broken up for a few years in college and did get back together/are now married and she said that isn't us-If we break up I can't relearn to feel all in and everything.

partgypsy

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Why don't you just pay for your own councelling session. She already knows what she wants and you are already paying so much for her. Don't waste your money on it.

She as a woman is approaching the age at which she best can get pregnant and produce healthy babies. She wants a husband to produce that, within a year or maybe two and who will maintain her financially, hencevthe marriage/commitment. I don't think she would change her mind about that in a councelling session.

It still sounds to me that you want her to break up, instead of you doing it yourself. But for her, there are good incentives for staying together: she gets financial help, you are apparently good husband material and you accept her low libido, or at least have done so for 7 years. She also wouldn't have to start over, looking for a new husband candidate.

My advice is that you try to live apart for half a year or so. And you in your housem she somewhere else. Also, if you decide to send her away from your house, don't finance her new place. She has parents, she won't be living on the street.

I think that individual sessions would benefit us both. Obviously, we have some codependency tendencies and ability to weather all sorts of fallacies. I think to her a breakup means that's it at this point. I brought up the example of some of our friends who had broken up for a few years in college and did get back together/are now married and she said that isn't us-If we break up I can't relearn to feel all in and everything.

Please go to individual counseling. As far as her, if she wants individual counseling, that is up to her to decide, seek out and pay for. Nothing to do with you.
While my ex and I were breaking up I chose to go to individual counseling. Much later on, he did as well for a period of time. But it was something we each did on our own and we did not involve the other person in it. 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 11:51:34 AM by partgypsy »

Milizard

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I think that you do know what you want: you want to be with someone who wants to be with you sexually.  She is trying to turn the responsibility for that back onto you by  behaving in a way that might change her.  She really doesn't seem very concerned about giving you what you want/need in this relationship--she continues to focus it back on her own wants/needs.  It is perfectly valid for her not to change herself, but then you reach the very definition of incompatibility.

It really is funny though-with how much I want that in a relationship or have put value on-I don't really want to talk to girls/find a partner in that way. I know some people are aching to get out of relationships because they've just disconnected for so long that it seems the logical step to move to the next but I guess I don't operate like that. This has shown me how much sex can disconnect an aspect of a relationship/how it can be misinterpreted or mismatched in multiple ways and it's just crazy how much I don't get about human behaviors or emotions.
It's 100% valid to expect it as a component to a relationship, though.  It may not be the main thing you're looking for, but it's an important thing to most people.   I don't have the strongest sex drive myself (though it's getting a lot stronger in my 40's), but it's really unfair to ask someone to abstain for years.

BicycleB

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@zoochadookdook, check out these quotes and who they're from.


I am not commited to the idea of marriage or have felt like I wanted kids yet.

At this point I understand why our values don't work... I know that we're 99.99% breaking up and it sucks.

I don't know if I want to get married or have kids with anyone... financially both of those are terrifying


I don't think time apart is going to change our fundamental values...

At this point I understand why our values don't work...


As a personal growth exercise, try to answer the question "Is this - these quotes above  - how you really feel?"

Try to do it without saying ANYTHING about your not-fiancee. Juuuuust answer the question "Is this how YOU really feel?"


« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 12:12:03 PM by BicycleB »

Psychstache

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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.

+10000

Also, completely normal that you don't feel eager or even ready to jump back into dating.  That will come in time.

Agree with this. I was in a similar situation many moons ago. I finally found the voice and words to break up with the girl I was dating for the past 5 years. There was "nothing wrong" with the relationship, but we were not happy and had some deep core level incompatibility that we just refused to acknowledge.  I moved away and went to grad school and put my mental energy into school, taking care of myself, and building skills for future work opportunities. I had been single for about a year and still wasn't looking for a new relationship when one just snuck up on me anyways (literally: The night I met my wife, a bunch of us from grad school were going out and I offered to give one of my classmates a ride. She asked me if I was sure if I was okay with that and I literally replied with "Yeah, it's no problem., It's not like I'm going to meet anyone tonight").

That year on my own focusing on myself and figuring out what I valued and wanted for my life was the greatest personal development I ever achieved. It was powerful and I wouldn't be who I am or where I am without it.

zoochadookdook

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@zoochadookdook, check out these quotes and who they're from.


I am not commited to the idea of marriage or have felt like I wanted kids yet.

At this point I understand why our values don't work... I know that we're 99.99% breaking up and it sucks.

I don't know if I want to get married or have kids with anyone... financially both of those are terrifying


I don't think time apart is going to change our fundamental values...

At this point I understand why our values don't work...


As a personal growth exercise, try to answer the question "Is this - these quotes above  - how you really feel?" - WITHOUT saying ANYTHING about your not-fiancee. Juuuuust answer the question "Is this how YOU really feel?"

I mean i think it's how i feel?

BicycleB

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Excellent answer, my friend. As someone posted upthread, you are indeed shifting your mindset.

That really is how you feel. It's just hard to be certain while someone who desparately wants you to feel something different is constantly bullying, gaslighting, and manipulating you. Especially since you've never been in a real relationship before.

Since it's how you really feel, the only way to make anything work is to end the relationship.


PS. For what it's worth, I think you're going to have to kick her out of your house. My suggestion would be email her a note that says "(Not-fiancee name), I do not want to live with you any more. Please move out of my house by (date of one month from now)." Then post a copy on her bedroom door and take a photo. That's basically how evictions begin in some jurisdictions. You're probably going to have to be direct and instruct her to move out.

zoochadookdook

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Excellent answer, my friend. As someone posted upthread, you are indeed shifting your mindset.

That really is how you feel. It's just hard to be certain while someone who desparately wants you to feel something different is constantly bullying, gaslighting, and manipulating you. Especially since you've never been in a real relationship before.

Since it's how you really feel, the only way to make anything work is to end the relationship.


PS. For what it's worth, I think you're going to have to kick her out of your house. My suggestion would be email her a note that says "(Not-fiancee name), I do not want to live with you any more. Please move out of my house by (date of one month from now)." Then post a copy on her bedroom door and take a photo. That's basically how evictions begin in some jurisdictions. You're probably going to have to be direct and instruct her to move out.

Oh man i think that'd be like worst case scenario. She would accept a break up and move out. She's currently staying at her fathers by choice. If by some reason it actually came to that I could see that as an option but jeez.

Kris

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Also: Give her the dogs.

I know they're half yours. But trying to figure out some sort of shared custody arrangement is just going to prolong the agony and keep you in a weird limbo for much longer than you should be. And when you are in your next relationship (which will eventually happen, of course), your new girlfriend will likely not love that your ex has this ex-spouse-like situation that keeps you tied to her.

And also, since you know your soon-to-be-ex is going to have a harder time of all this than you will, it will be good for her to have the emotional support of having the dogs be hers. It's your parting gift to her.

She might resist this in some way -- because the dogs tie you together, and make it easier for her to keep manipulating you. For example, she might complain about the expense. Which I get, because pets cost money. So, cut her a check. A lump sum check. And be done with it. Every decision you make in this regard should have as its underlying reason "making a clean break."
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 12:29:23 PM by Kris »

zoochadookdook

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Also: Give her the dogs.

I know they're half yours. But trying to figure out some sort of shared custody arrangement is just going to prolong the agony and keep you in a weird limbo for much longer than you should be. And when you are in your next relationship (which will eventually happen, of course), your new girlfriend will likely not love that your ex has this ex-spouse-like situation that keeps you tied to her.

And also, since you know your soon-to-be-ex is going to have a harder time of all this than you will, it will be good for her to have the emotional support of having the dogs be hers. It's your parting gift to her.

She might resist this in some way -- because the dogs tie you together, and make it easier for her to keep manipulating you. For example, she might complain about the expense. Which I get, because pets cost money. So, cut her a check. A lump sum check. And be done with it. Every decision you make in this regard should have as its underlying reason "making a clean break."

I love those dogs. They're literally so freaking spoiled. We did mention that and I told her I'd let her have the dogs but she said she didn't want to keep them from me. From a ease of seperation factor I can understand it though. The issue is that the younger one is bonded to the older one and they're a breed that is super compulsive and emotional about their state.

BicycleB

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You two sound like you try to keep your individual position as Nice People by avoiding any decision that makes you sound or feel the Bad Person.

If she says she wants you to have the dogs, call her bluff. Say that's fine, but she still needs to move. You need to complete the breakup.

If she waffles about the dogs, simply say "Where the dogs go is up to you as long as they both go to the same person." If she passes the decision back to you, make the decision without further ado by "deciding" on whatever she last said (in this example, now you get them).

Whatever you do, she's going to push every emotional button to make it feel bad. You just need to go ahead anyway by making decisions and completing actions.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 12:56:21 PM by BicycleB »

partgypsy

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I thought my ex was a super animal lover. But when he moved out he keeps living in places that don't allow pets. So other than briefly seeing them when he is dropping off, picking up kids, doesn't have anything to do with the pets anymore. I was surprised by that. Even if you love the dogs, it will be OK as long as they are treated well.

As far as giving ultimatums they are not necessarily manipulative. My ex gave me the dear Jane talk in early March, late Feb? that he didn't really feel the same about me (a couple years ago). Despite that he was not in a hurry to move out, which gave me false hope and us going back and forth. He also floated the idea of us living together as roomates to raise the kids, but otherwise be "autonomous". So while it was hard for me, I finally gave him the ultimatum to either re-commit to marriage, or move out. He moved out. I'm not saying every relationship needs an ultimatum to end it finally, it really depends on the situation, but for me since I was in limbo for so long, I needed to know and move on from there. In fact I should have done it sooner.   
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 02:46:08 PM by partgypsy »

ysette9

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Oh, @zoochadookdook, I feel for you. You are a good person in a hard situation trying to do the right thing without the complete toolset (perspective, maturity, experience). I agree with others that you have been making remarkable progress in your own head in sorting things out. I hope we arenít coming across as too harsh because I think we are all developing a fondness for you and want to see the best outcome.

Iíd love to have you go look at yourself in the mirror and repeat ďI am a good person. My needs are legitimate.Ē any time you start wallowing in doubts.