Author Topic: 7 year relationship. No sexual desire. She wants to get married. Any Counselors?  (Read 31634 times)

zoochadookdook

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Same lol I mean hey it's all we can try eh? But thanks for looking out. I know it sounds crazy out of context "she's going off bc to try to have sex".

Something to consider too is that this is a short term solution even if you get married.

Unless you expect her to maintain the same drive for the rest of her life, that will almost assuredly change as you two get older, have kids, etc.

Yeah; I don't expect a GOGOGO mentality from anyone forever really in that aspect(it's neigh impossible especially with time/life/age and changes); but having some sort of libido is a must vs none. I've been reading on asexuality/demi sexuality and relationships between them and standard libido partners a lot and it's been kind of nutty. I personally can't be in a relationship unless someone has a libido/a lot of people in those previously listed situations go outside the relationship on one side or the other but I wouldn't do that knowingly or unknowingly-if i'm with someone I'm with them.

Blueberries

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If they start having sex, I'll wager she's pregnant in less than six months.  This whole situation smells like a trap. 

She desperately wants marriage and kids with him, he doesn't but has agreed she should go off birth control, now all she has to do is lay him once, on the right day, and she gets everything she wants and he's fucked.  It's classic.

Wear a condom every time, OP, and be sure to retain possession of used ones.  If you spill a single drop your life gets significantly more complicated and not necessarily in a good way.

Sadly, this is the first thing that popped into my head, too.

zoochadookdook

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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.


That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever.  Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.

PoutineLover

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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.


That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever.  Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.

simonsez

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If she had wanted to get pregnant she could have stopped taking it without telling me (fucked I know) and initiated.
I mean, yes but it takes two to tango.  You're putting all the onus for BC on her.  That's not fair, of course not telling your partner your BC is changing isn't ideal but there is still some accountability on your end if you do have sex without a condom or any other type of male prophylactic.

As others have said, please be wary with sex with someone who wants kids while you're not sure.  After reading this thread, I can't believe this is still a viable relationship but you will know better than anyone if it still makes sense to continue.  The thought processes involved by both are so different from my own that I'm intrigued as to how it unfolds.  Good luck!

ysette9

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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.


That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever.  Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.
I want to second and third and thumbís up this comment. People in solid relationships WANT to be together, they want the same things, they see eye-to-eye. Not always 100% about everything, but the major thugs click.

I donít know you and I am not inside your relationship, but my guess would be that the reluctance and uncertainty you feel are a combo of the fact that you are young and havenít gotten out there to LIVE and date and have fun but have been living the life of a monk for years, and that you know deep down inside this relationship isnít everything you need and want. You deserve to have fun. You deserve someone who wants to jump you. You deserve to enjoy an easy relationship where you arenít agonizing and negotiating and second-guessing your own very reasonable needs.

We canít make you see this but we all hope you work your way to that place eventually.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 12:15:52 PM by ysette9 »

Kris

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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.


That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever.  Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.
I want to second and third and thumbís up this comment. People in solid relationships WANT to be together, they want the same things, they see eye-to-eye. Not always 100% about everything, but the major thugs click.

I donít know you and I am not inside your relationship, but my guess would be that the reluctance and uncertainty you feel are a combo of the fact that you are going and havenít gotten out there to LIVE and date and have fun but have been loving the life of a monk for years, and that you know deep down inside this relationship isnít everything you need and want. You deserve to have fun. You deserve someone who wants to jump you. You deserve to enjoy an easy relationship where you arenít agonizing and negotiating and second-guessing your own very reasonable needs.

We canít make you see this but we all hope you work your way to that place eventually.

I agree with this.

And the only way to deal with the uncertainty and reluctance you feel is to take it as the sign that it is. End the relationship, and go out and live. The only way to get the experience you need to know what you want and what you don't is to go out and have other experiences. Other relationships. Only by doing this will you learn that what you have right now isn't ultimately a fulfilling relationship. Not for you, and not for her.

Basically, OP, at this point it boils down to the fact that you have two choices.

One, stay with your friend, and always wonder whether this was the right relationship. (And probably, eventually figure out it wasn't the right one, and break up years from now -- probably after you're married and have kids together.)

Two, break up with your friend. And go out and live life, learn about relationships, learn what you do and don't want. And eventually, find the relationship that you are sure of, and that you are 100% committed to, no question, no doubt in your mind at all.

I know which one I'd prefer.

I bet deep down you do, too.

It's just that number #1 seems easier in the short term. It's the passive choice. And as you've said, you're kind of a passive person. But long-term, it will be the harder, more complicated decision, and will cause more pain and suffering, probably to more people. Especially if you have kids.

#2 is ripping the band-aid off now. And then looking back later, thinking, "Wow, I am SO glad I made that decision. What was I thinking?"

BicycleB

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(Everyone has said break up, you'll be happier for it in the end and so will she. I agree, but...)

In the meantime, OP, since you're trying the her-no-birth-control-hormones thing, please consider that if her libido returns, she doesn't have to consciously or even unconsciously plan to trap you. The simple logical consequence of libido is that she will end up with a child.

You have responsible intentions and will be the presumed father. Hence, 18+ years of paying, whether you stay with Mommy or not. I strongly urge you implement thorough consistent non-hormonal birth control until after a wholehearted wedding ceremony.

Think it won't come to that (pun intended)? Meet my Responsible Dead Best Friend (RDBF...let's call him Ronnie). Ronnie's girlfriend when he was 19 was smart, pretty, responsible. Used her birth control every day. Forgot once. Boom, Child Number One. They married, but divorced after 2 or 3 tumultuous years. Eighteen years of payments. Child called dad and complained about her problems until age 40, when Ronnie got fatal cancer. This could be you, except Girlfriend's told you she's not using any BC, and you waited a few years...payments, calls, tumult, divorce, and death are all possible for you!

Ronnie's girlfriend when he was 29 was smart, pretty, responsible, and forgiving of his involvement with the tumult of Wife 1 and responsibilities of Child 1. Used her birth control every day. Forgot once. Boom, Child Number Two. They married, but divorced after 8 or 9 tumultuous years. Eighteen years of payments. Child hung out with dad before and after juvie, staying in touch until age 30, when Ronnie got fatal cancer. This could be you, except Girlfriend's told you she's not using any BC, and you don't have second wife yet...payments, tumult, divorce, juvie and death are all possible for you!

Want another one? I dated a beautiful woman we'll call Brunette Barbie, because she regaled me with the tale that if I thought she was hot at 25, I should have seen her at 19, when she worked in retail and a little girl in line pointed at her and told Mom, "Look, mom! Barbie!!" She had darling 2 year old twin girls. They exist because one night, she felt like going to a bar, and idly looked at the cute man there and thought "Oh, his lips would look so cute on a baby." They were conceived in the ensuing single night. Mom was right.

Nothing but death is guaranteed, but I advise you to plan ahead re birth control. Libido is very demanding once it starts.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 11:19:14 AM by BicycleB »

zoochadookdook

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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.

Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).

I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.


zoochadookdook

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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.

Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. On the other hand, this is mostly a thread focused on the negatives. There are positives-She buys my clothes on occasion/picks out my work outfits, does the laundry, cleans up when I'm out of house, gives me little gifts and texts at random that show appreciation, understands when I have a boys night out/just want to kick it doesnstairs and play some games, shows me off on social media platforms and is generally a fantastic person. We are more than friends yet a far cry away from where we each think we are.  I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).

I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need. I'm hoping to broach these larger conflicting mindsets at counseling tomorrow.

Raenia

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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.

Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).

I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.

You've committed to this idea of 'seeing if you can make it work,' but I don't know if you've actually addressed if you should make it work.  All else aside, it sounds like you are not excited about the idea of marrying this woman and having a family and a life with her.  That's not something you can work on.  You shouldn't have to exhaust every option to save the relationship - if the joy is gone, there's nothing left to save.  She has a vision of her future life, and you're having a hard time picturing yourself as part of that life.  That image of 10 years from now, married with 2 kids, or whatever details she's spun - you're obviously not looking at that image and saying 'Yeah, that's what I want, I can't wait to get there.'  Ultimately, it doesn't matter the reason: if you're not quite ready but you will be one day, vs you will never want that ever, the answer is still the same right now.

You don't want the same things in life right now.  That's ok, there's no shame on either of you for that, but you can't force yourself to want it.  That applies equally to her, on having a sex life, and to you, on having a family.  You can't force yourself to want what you don't want.

These kinds of breakups are way harder than the other kind - it's incredibly difficult to accept that you can be so compatible and happy together, and yet not want the same future.  My last ex did the difficult thing - I was pushing toward engagement and children, and he finally said 'I'm not excited about marrying you, so it's time to end it."  My sister and her ex had a harder time - they'd already gotten married, and he finally realized that he wasn't ready and might never be ready for the family that she desperately wanted.  They had to go through a painful divorce, not just a painful breakup.

Dragging things out only makes it harder.

It's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's.  Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.

I don't think this statement is necessarily true.  The what/why/how isn't as important as you think it is.  You are not excited to marry this person.  Full stop.  Why you aren't is something you may never fully understand.  Preventing yourself from moving on in quest for some kind of meaning seems almost cruel, to both of you.

Finally, I suspect you'll find it much easier to understand what you do and don't need once you are no longer in this relationship.  Right now, your expectations and understanding of the other person are interfering with your understanding of your own needs.  (That's the plural you throughout, just to be clear)

mousebandit

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First off, let me say that, like all PP, I've been there, done that, and I too, do not believe this is the right relationship for you.  However, that said, here's an idea that I don't think has been presented yet. 

Back off, start over.  One of you move out to another place.  Let her go off her BC, go to a female horomone doc and get a full hormone workup.  Then you two start dating all over.  Not as the "been together nearly every day of the last 7 years" kind of dates, but intentionally set it all up as if you were just getting to know each other.  Go out on dates - don't go "in" to one another's homes.  Once a week, not all the time.  Don't text 24/7, just keep it casual, as if you were just getting to know each other.

She wants the security of an engagement before she will pursue sex - fine, treat her as a good, virgin girl with utmost hands-off respect for now.  Just casually date and live separately.  You try to look at her from a new perspective - not who she has been to you since you were teenagers, not who she has been through this difficult last few weeks, but as a new person - get to know who she is right now, today, tomorrow, next week.  TAKE YOUR TIME.  Make it clear that sex, engagement, everything is off the table, but you want an opportunity for each of you to genuinely start over and see where it takes you. 

If spending time on a few dates and listening to her talk, brings out the tiger in you (if you know what I mean), then flirt with her - but don't touch.  See if you courting her all over again brings out the tiger in her.  If it does NOT, in either or both of you, then there's nowhere to go and no pretending.  If it's EH, that's not good enough either. 

If you move out, and stop playing house, and get clear that it's not just going to drag on the way it has been, it will probably open up the field of vision for each of you.  What is life like on my own, is it so bad, is it pretty good, oh, look, there are other guys/girls out there who flirt with me or catch my eye!  Who knew?   ALso, you both need to be clear with your friends and family on the fact that you've moved out and taken a step back, and you need to be going out with your friends.  You may or may not want to open up the possibility of dating other people. 

Once you remove the convenience and comfortableness of living in the same house, and the known quantity of "being a couple", and you are both clear that you are NOT getting engaged, you are back to dating or courting, it may change your perspectives.  She also can fully understand and live with the reality of choosing to NOT have sex until engagement (or marriage) and that's perfectly ok (I am one who is a fan of that, myself), but it's a different track and you both need to experience life on that track - no living together, no snuggles in bed, no automatic partner/date for events, no comingled bills. 

I am not the dog/pet person that many people are, but you guys need to just make the call as to whom the dogs will live with and suck it up.  Dogs are not children, and if you think it's hard to decide the doggie issues, and can't face that, neither of you are ready for marriage anyways.  One of you take the dogs (I recommend her, she may need comfort more than you after the moving out, and it will make it easier for you two if/when you split ways permanently), and arrange for a weekly doggie date together with the dogs at a dog park or something.  You don't need to offer ongoing financial support for the dogs or anything, just let her take them. 

I think this isn't the right relationship for either of you.  You should have someone you're just crazy about, like can't go to sleep at night because you're so excited about this person.  And that person should make you feel like a million freaking bucks, like she can't wait to see you and that includes physical desire for you.  That's HUGELY important!  And this girl deserves that too!!  If you move out, go back to brand-new dating, and intentionally court her, and the sparks aren't flying hot and heavy inside each one of you for the other, then set her free!   She is scared, and probably her girlfriends are getting engaged, and she might be feeling an internal clock, but she is scared, and you need to be the stronger one here, for her benefit, as well as yours! 

I would advise to just cut it off now, clean, and be done, but if you can't face that yet, then completely step back.  Have her move out, give her 3-5 weeks to make other plans and you go stay with a friend or parents during that time.  She takes the dogs, you guys go on a "first date" and really treat it as such.  It's been so long, you may not even know what that would look like - ask your buddies.  Something casual, low key, in a group, etc.  TALK with her, you probably think you know everything about her, but maybe you don't.  And, if she truly just needs to feel "chosen" (as it sounds like she keeps saying), then you choosing her for a date, and to give your full attention to, maybe that will spark her libido.  And even if it does, don't go there physically.  Keep it hands-off.  Continue dating, slowly.  START OVER, and give it 2-4 months max.  If after that time, you're not 100% IN LOVE and CAN'T WAIT to start your married life with this woman, and she feels totally the same way, including having the major physical hots for you, then you both need to face up and YOU need to be the stronger person and call it done.  I highly recommend that you include the option of seeing other people in this dating period, even if neither of you have that intention to begin with.  If you know the option is there, one or both of you may find your eyes opened in ways they haven't been over the last few years. 

I think you're on the right track, you're just hesitant, you don't want to hurt your best friend, of course, and you are an honorable guy.  You will get to the right place, hopefully before too much more damage is done.  Be strong. 


Malkynn

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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.

Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).

I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.

Every person reading who has ever had a major break up is sighing and shaking their head.

Yep. The whole "we have to exhaust all of our options in order to be SURE that we aren't walking away prematurely, because although we both know that our relationship is all sorts of messed up, there's a lot of good there that neither of us want to lose" song has been sung a million times before.

It's okay, this is your first time, so it seems totally rational to you. We get it.

However, I maintain what I posted earlier, which you never responded to, that doing what you are doing is possibly the worst thing for HER.

I don't see this ending well for her. You will be fine, and if/when you finally break up, you will have all of the certainty and closure you need in order to feel solid and self assured that you made the right decision.

She on the other hand will have pushed herself far out of her comfort zone while doubling down on banking on your commitment to her to make her feel better about herself, which is a losing strategy no matter what happens.
The more you play along with her unhealthy issues, the worse off she will be, no matter what the outcome.

Understand this clearly: what you are doing right now is almost guaranteed to damage her more. You are voluntarily damaging her more.

It feels like a reasonable, good guy move to give it your all before pulling the plug. It feels like the "right" thing to do, but it isn't. Not even a little bit.

She needs help. She needs her own therapist to help her work on her own issues, that she has very unhealthily attributed to you.

Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.

It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!

You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.

Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.

Based on everything you've shared about just how deeply emotionally dysfunctional she is, I actually think it's cruel to keep her on the hook like this. I think it's cruel to let her desperately try to sexually please you when she's obviously really messed up about it and is OBVIOUSLY banking on it getting her a ring/husband/baby/whatever thing she thinks will fix her broken, broken emotional psyche.

Don't do this to her.
If you actually love her, don't do this to her.
It's not kind, it's not caring, it's not love.

If you love her, let her get the help she needs to heal her self esteem. And *that* she needs to do alone.

The only loving move here is to let go before this gets a lot uglier than it needs to be. I know it doesn't feel that way. I know it's hard to internalize what I'm saying.

Here's hoping some of it sinks in, for her sake. She needs help, she doesn't need you.

bwall

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Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.

It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!

You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.

Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.
Don't forget the emotional needs of OP. Perhaps once he hits it again after 7 long years of tryin', he'll be over it for good. The conquest will be complete and he can move on to bigger and better things. Now he's in it and can't get out without one last lay.

ematicic

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After catching up on all of this, I only have one suggestion that I did not see mentioned..

Have her read this thread in it's entirety. Discuss the next day. Make the decision.

Maybe you have managed to explain something here in such a way she did not understand but she will see how heavy it weighs on you. She will be appalled, sympathetic, maybe even indifferent but it will be the catalyst for the way ahead.

zoochadookdook

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After catching up on all of this, I only have one suggestion that I did not see mentioned..

Have her read this thread in it's entirety. Discuss the next day. Make the decision.

Maybe you have managed to explain something here in such a way she did not understand but she will see how heavy it weighs on you. She will be appalled, sympathetic, maybe even indifferent but it will be the catalyst for the way ahead.

Woof, not sure about that one. She won't even confide in her close friends about it. Catalyst it'd be-but also incredibly hurtful to read peoples opinions from the outside (I'm a bit more thick-skinned)

zoochadookdook

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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.

Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).

I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.

Every person reading who has ever had a major break up is sighing and shaking their head.

Yep. The whole "we have to exhaust all of our options in order to be SURE that we aren't walking away prematurely, because although we both know that our relationship is all sorts of messed up, there's a lot of good there that neither of us want to lose" song has been sung a million times before.

It's okay, this is your first time, so it seems totally rational to you. We get it.

However, I maintain what I posted earlier, which you never responded to, that doing what you are doing is possibly the worst thing for HER.

I don't see this ending well for her. You will be fine, and if/when you finally break up, you will have all of the certainty and closure you need in order to feel solid and self assured that you made the right decision.

She on the other hand will have pushed herself far out of her comfort zone while doubling down on banking on your commitment to her to make her feel better about herself, which is a losing strategy no matter what happens.
The more you play along with her unhealthy issues, the worse off she will be, no matter what the outcome.

Understand this clearly: what you are doing right now is almost guaranteed to damage her more. You are voluntarily damaging her more.

It feels like a reasonable, good guy move to give it your all before pulling the plug. It feels like the "right" thing to do, but it isn't. Not even a little bit.

She needs help. She needs her own therapist to help her work on her own issues, that she has very unhealthily attributed to you.

Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.

It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!

You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.

Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.

Based on everything you've shared about just how deeply emotionally dysfunctional she is, I actually think it's cruel to keep her on the hook like this. I think it's cruel to let her desperately try to sexually please you when she's obviously really messed up about it and is OBVIOUSLY banking on it getting her a ring/husband/baby/whatever thing she thinks will fix her broken, broken emotional psyche.

Don't do this to her.
If you actually love her, don't do this to her.
It's not kind, it's not caring, it's not love.

If you love her, let her get the help she needs to heal her self esteem. And *that* she needs to do alone.

The only loving move here is to let go before this gets a lot uglier than it needs to be. I know it doesn't feel that way. I know it's hard to internalize what I'm saying.

Here's hoping some of it sinks in, for her sake. She needs help, she doesn't need you.

It sinks in, i'm just trying to think of the best way to tell her how I know making an effort to change on both ends trying to make eachother feel differently is more detrimental to us than breaking up. She's very much of the "all we can do is try" mentality.

zoochadookdook

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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.


That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever.  Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.
I want to second and third and thumbís up this comment. People in solid relationships WANT to be together, they want the same things, they see eye-to-eye. Not always 100% about everything, but the major thugs click.

I donít know you and I am not inside your relationship, but my guess would be that the reluctance and uncertainty you feel are a combo of the fact that you are young and havenít gotten out there to LIVE and date and have fun but have been living the life of a monk for years, and that you know deep down inside this relationship isnít everything you need and want. You deserve to have fun. You deserve someone who wants to jump you. You deserve to enjoy an easy relationship where you arenít agonizing and negotiating and second-guessing your own very reasonable needs.

We canít make you see this but we all hope you work your way to that place eventually.

That's the thing; we both want to be together. I totally agree she deserves to have someone who is estastic to marry and have children and I've made my point that I require a sex life in a relationship. We're mussing over the hows or ifs right now. Consouling is pretty bad in that every time we go it feels so negative but we're finally communicating which is great from what we were doing.

ysette9

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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.

Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).

I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.

Every person reading who has ever had a major break up is sighing and shaking their head.

Yep. The whole "we have to exhaust all of our options in order to be SURE that we aren't walking away prematurely, because although we both know that our relationship is all sorts of messed up, there's a lot of good there that neither of us want to lose" song has been sung a million times before.

It's okay, this is your first time, so it seems totally rational to you. We get it.

However, I maintain what I posted earlier, which you never responded to, that doing what you are doing is possibly the worst thing for HER.

I don't see this ending well for her. You will be fine, and if/when you finally break up, you will have all of the certainty and closure you need in order to feel solid and self assured that you made the right decision.

She on the other hand will have pushed herself far out of her comfort zone while doubling down on banking on your commitment to her to make her feel better about herself, which is a losing strategy no matter what happens.
The more you play along with her unhealthy issues, the worse off she will be, no matter what the outcome.

Understand this clearly: what you are doing right now is almost guaranteed to damage her more. You are voluntarily damaging her more.

It feels like a reasonable, good guy move to give it your all before pulling the plug. It feels like the "right" thing to do, but it isn't. Not even a little bit.

She needs help. She needs her own therapist to help her work on her own issues, that she has very unhealthily attributed to you.

Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.

It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!

You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.

Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.

Based on everything you've shared about just how deeply emotionally dysfunctional she is, I actually think it's cruel to keep her on the hook like this. I think it's cruel to let her desperately try to sexually please you when she's obviously really messed up about it and is OBVIOUSLY banking on it getting her a ring/husband/baby/whatever thing she thinks will fix her broken, broken emotional psyche.

Don't do this to her.
If you actually love her, don't do this to her.
It's not kind, it's not caring, it's not love.

If you love her, let her get the help she needs to heal her self esteem. And *that* she needs to do alone.

The only loving move here is to let go before this gets a lot uglier than it needs to be. I know it doesn't feel that way. I know it's hard to internalize what I'm saying.

Here's hoping some of it sinks in, for her sake. She needs help, she doesn't need you.

It sinks in, i'm just trying to think of the best way to tell her how I know making an effort to change on both ends trying to make eachother feel differently is more detrimental to us than breaking up. She's very much of the "all we can do is try" mentality.
The best thing for both of you is to be independently happy as you are. The best thing is to not be reliant on someone else for propping up your self esteem. The best thing after that is to meet someone who you are excited to be with who wants you for you, as you are. As it is you are both torturing yourselves trying to change your fundamental natures in hopes of pleasing someone who doesnít excite passion. Why are you working so hard? It doesnít have to be this hard. It isnít supposed to be this hard.

I donít mean to imply that good relationships are always sunshine and roses. You are putting in this heroic effort akin to the guy who is trying to save his 30-year marriage for the sake of the kids. Except you arenít married. And you donít have kids. And you donít have 20 years of awesome relationships history to remember that drives you to work to get back the goodness you know is possible. You donít even know if good is possible because youíve never really had a chance to be in that state.

Malkynn

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Don't forget the emotional needs of OP. Perhaps once he hits it again after 7 long years of tryin', he'll be over it for good. The conquest will be complete and he can move on to bigger and better things. Now he's in it and can't get out without one last lay.

I'm not. I've posted multiple times in this thread, mostly in support of OP's needs.

However, it's abundantly clear that he is very poor at prioritizing his own needs and many of us have noted repeatedly that he keeps focusing on her, her needs, what she says, what she wants, etc.
He's been remarkably, consistently repetitive in this respect.

He has a lot of guilt and feels a lot of responsibility for her emotional well being, which isn't healthy for either of them.

So since he is so preoccupied with what she wants, I decided to put the focus on her and point out that even if his goal is to make her happy, that breaking up is the best option for her.

Also, contrary to what you propose, I doubt that if she puts in the effort to have sex that he'll suddenly bail. He's held out for 7 years without even bringing it up.

I'm willing to bet that if they do have sex that he will feel deeply and profoundly obligated to her even more so than be already does and that it will feel nearly impossible to leave her without feeling like a terrible, terrible person.

I don't think this has anything to do with conquest, and has everything to do with sense of obligation to her.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:23:50 PM by Malkynn »

partgypsy

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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".

You talking to each other is not going to get there.

I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously. 

You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.

I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:25:14 PM by partgypsy »

zoochadookdook

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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".

You talking to each other is not going to get there.

I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously. 

You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.

I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

iris lily

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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".

You talking to each other is not going to get there.

I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously. 

You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.

I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

A million people are going to jump on this last comment: whatever does it mean that your therapist cannot legally give you advice?

Whaaaaaaat?

I am actually a little scared for you now, even though I know you are a healthy adult functioning in the job world pretty well and in your social circle pretty well. Man óyou need to stop crowdsourcing advice because youíre not gonna get any more advice than  youíve already gotten on this thread.

Get a decent therapist for yourself. Look inwardly. Develop yourself as an adult, develop introspective ability. Get to know yourself.

  Frankly I donít think you should continue therapy with your SO, I think you should  get the hell away from her but youíre gonna do whatever youíre going to do.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:56:18 PM by iris lily »

zoochadookdook

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Don't forget the emotional needs of OP. Perhaps once he hits it again after 7 long years of tryin', he'll be over it for good. The conquest will be complete and he can move on to bigger and better things. Now he's in it and can't get out without one last lay.

I'm not. I've posted multiple times in this thread, mostly in support of OP's needs.

However, it's abundantly clear that he is very poor at prioritizing his own needs and many of us have noted repeatedly that he keeps focusing on her, her needs, what she says, what she wants, etc.
He's been remarkably, consistently repetitive in this respect.

He has a lot of guilt and feels a lot of responsibility for her emotional well being, which isn't healthy for either of them.

So since he is so preoccupied with what she wants, I decided to put the focus on her and point out that even if his goal is to make her happy, that breaking up is the best option for her.

Also, contrary to what you propose, I doubt that if she puts in the effort to have sex that he'll suddenly bail. He's held out for 7 years without even bringing it up.

I'm willing to bet that if they do have sex that he will feel deeply and profoundly obligated to her even more so than be already does and that it will feel nearly impossible to leave her without feeling like a terrible, terrible person.

I don't think this has anything to do with conquest, and has everything to do with sense of obligation to her.

I do hah; ironically enough before we were dating I was considered a noncomittmental ass of a young male. I went to the Army directly out of high school and when I came back had literally zero direction aside from parties and make it to drill every month. The catalyst for what most people who know me say was "the best change of my life" was her taking me back after I cheated. Dysfunctional? certainly-but it gave me a purpose, a direction, a need to work to be able to afford things, to go to school because it wasn't just me it was me and someone I cared about.

I have told her engagement should not factor towards her sense of self worth-to which she responded that if someone you love in that way/tells you they don't love you in the same it does hurt her confidence and the like. It's apparent we both find some self-worth and efficacy derived from being together.

This next counseling appointment is going to be a doozy. It's going to focus on my wants and I can tell you not being sure about marriage or kids is almost a guaranteed breakup because to be honest-if I don't know by now and we've been together this long what's the point in continuing? I'm not upset at that I'm just sad as I felt somehow we would be going through life together.

Malkynn

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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

Wait wut???

What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.

zoochadookdook

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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".

You talking to each other is not going to get there.

I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously. 

You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.

I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

A million people are going to jump on this last comment: whatever does it mean that your therapist cannot legally give you advice?

Whaaaaaaat?

Yeah right? Apparently, that's one of the first things they learn at school is not to give direct advice.

zoochadookdook

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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

Wait wut???

What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.

Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).

Malkynn

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Yeah right? Apparently, that's one of the first things they learn at school is not to give direct advice.

If by that, they mean that they're trained not to tell you what to do and to help you figure out for yourself how to handle your problems while giving you the tools you need in order to do so, then yes.

However, they absolutely, 100% give advice. It's a MAJOR part of the job.

Malkynn

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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

Wait wut???

What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.

Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).

Dude.

I think you might need a better counselor.

zoochadookdook

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Yeah right? Apparently, that's one of the first things they learn at school is not to give direct advice.

If by that, they mean that they're trained not to tell you what to do and to help you figure out for yourself how to handle your problems while giving you the tools you need in order to do so, then yes.

However, they absolutely, 100% give advice. It's a MAJOR part of the job.

Sure I worded that wrong. I'm still waiting on these tools though. I feel like the first 5 sessions we talked about our talks during the week, how we felt about things, and took turns going back and forth. I know it takes time but I'd like at least some sort of tool or exercise or something.  I guess I'll schedule a intake at another place local.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 02:15:26 PM by zoochadookdook »

partgypsy

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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

Wait wut???

What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.

Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).

hmm. You might need a different counselor, and individual counseling me thinks.

Hadilly

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My apologies, I misread your post as you were discontinuing using birth control altogether?

zoochadookdook

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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.

Wait wut???

What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.

Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).

hmm. You might need a different counselor, and individual counseling me thinks.

yeah ideally that'd be great but at $80-90 a session a week per person/together I only take home like 2900/month. I can budget in the weekly sessions right now but not for 3 sessions/week

former player

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Isn't your friend paying for half the counselling?  If not, why not?

I'm not convinced you need a different counsellor.  The one you've got seems to be bringing out the truths of the problems between you and your friend: the problem is that your friend is unhappy with those truths coming out and you are sad about the truths themselves.  The fact that your counsellor is helping to reveal these unhappinesses doesn't mean that they are not doing the job.  And let's face it, you say you want your counsellor to give you advice but you've had plenty of advice on this thread that you have been reluctant to follow: why would advice from a counsellor be any different?

This next counseling appointment is going to be a doozy. It's going to focus on my wants and I can tell you not being sure about marriage or kids is almost a guaranteed breakup because to be honest-if I don't know by now and we've been together this long what's the point in continuing? I'm not upset at that I'm just sad as I felt somehow we would be going through life together.

I'm glad to hear that the next counselling session is focusing on your wants.  It's interesting that you appear to acknowledge here that your wants are incompatible with marriage and kids with your friend.  And being sad that something is coming to an end is natural, but that sadness is something to work through, not a reason for artificially keeping something going that should properly come to an end.

Cassie

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A good therapist does not give advice because 20 people with the same problem will solve it in 20 different ways. They help you find your individual solution.

LadyMuMu

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Couples counselor = priority is the relationship

individual counselor = priority is the well being of the individual client

You are spending money on someone who is there to help you RETAIN your relationship. He or she will give you tools to help continue a relationship. Rare is the couples counselor who is trained/comfortable in giving you tools and a guide to END a relationship.

You are saying you need to decide if you want to remain in this relationship/be married/have kids. That is a job for an independent counselor.

I second the advice to move out. Start over. Reset. It will lower the stakes for both of you so you can make the best way forward.

Also, IMO, if your answer to the "Want kids?" question isn't a full-throated yes, it's a no. Or at least a no for the foreseeable future.

Kris

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Couples counselor = priority is the relationship

individual counselor = priority is the well being of the individual client

You are spending money on someone who is there to help you RETAIN your relationship. He or she will give you tools to help continue a relationship. Rare is the couples counselor who is trained/comfortable in giving you tools and a guide to END a relationship.


This.

Also, I might add, they are there to help you keep your relationship, regardless of what they personally think about that.

In my first marriage, we got to the point of going to a couple's counselor. Long story short, the marriage ended. And after we separated, I decided to go back to that counselor one more time by myself, for some closure.

During that session, the counselor told me he thought the marriage was very unhealthy and that it was better for me that I was no longer with my husband anymore. He basically said without saying that my soon-to-be-ex was a dysfunctional spouse and that I was better off single.

Did he ever say any of that, or give any hint of it during the sessions? No. And I understand why. But it's worth remembering the limits of their job.

BeanCounter

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Couples counselor = priority is the relationship

individual counselor = priority is the well being of the individual client

You are spending money on someone who is there to help you RETAIN your relationship. He or she will give you tools to help continue a relationship. Rare is the couples counselor who is trained/comfortable in giving you tools and a guide to END a relationship.

You are saying you need to decide if you want to remain in this relationship/be married/have kids. That is a job for an independent counselor.

I second the advice to move out. Start over. Reset. It will lower the stakes for both of you so you can make the best way forward.

Also, IMO, if your answer to the "Want kids?" question isn't a full-throated yes, it's a no. Or at least a no for the foreseeable future.
This is some of the best advice on this thread. Especially the last line.
Move out. IMHO it does not make any sense to live together and not sleep together with the assumption that it will get better some day. That ship has sailed man. Move on.

zoochadookdook

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Interesting perspective on the types of counselors. I mean tonight may be our last couples session as I'm going to try to air out the actual details a bit more and suggest we see separate ones/similar. I almost wish I could give her a filtered version of this entire thread to read and air out as it's been my feelings and thoughts explained as best as I know how.  Reading back it's interesting how I thought the only issue was the lack of sex; but it's more elaborate. Funny how you just ignore things with time.

I'm not planning on moving out  (It's my house/I could find a buddy to stay with i'm sure) but I'm just not exactly ready for that right now. I've been reading things and musing on my personal wants and hers and coming up with a better way to speak freely this evening.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 01:19:00 PM by zoochadookdook »

LadyMuMu

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Writing down your thoughts (even cribbing from your posts or those posts of others from this thread) is a totally VALID way to prepare and express yourself accurately in a counseling session. Reading your thoughts that you've written on a piece of papers isn't any less valid than saying them off the top of your head.

RetiredAt63

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Writing down your thoughts (even cribbing from your posts or those posts of others from this thread) is a totally VALID way to prepare and express yourself accurately in a counseling session. Reading your thoughts that you've written on a piece of papers isn't any less valid than saying them off the top of your head.

It is probably better, we get fuller/truer meaning from things we have thought about.  It is like journaling, you are processing what is going on in your head.  Off the top of your head is often momentary reaction to a passing thought.

zoochadookdook

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OK

SO, last night sucked but I feel like we actually made some progress vs talking about how if we had sex etc etc.

I did speak to the consoler about focusing on our individual needs in relationship therapy vs individual and she did explain the differences but made it clear she doesn't want us to deflect back to eachother as needs for our own emotional wants. There was a very specific point where I was saying I've always tried to take care of her at the expense of paying attention to my own needs and she said it makes her feel awful because it looks like i've just given up things i've wanted to do because of her. That's true but in relationships, you make sacrifices so the point wasn't that I feel like i've missed out-but rather I haven't taken the time to realize what I want.

It was more focused on my wants/reasons other than the sex that I feel the way I do.  She wants that obvious answer of what I want but because I don't know, I made it clear that I don't know if I want to be married or have kids right now. I don't want to break up with her-BUT I feel like I'm not going to figure out what I want anytime soon if I haven't already. The big point from her was I said we'd be ok alone-I think she asked me if I saw myself with her in the future and I said I'd like to if we could work on our relationship but I would be ok if I was alone. I'm more worried about her being alone as I know i've taken care of her and tried to for so long and yeah It sucks but what sucks worse is dragging out her expectations that I can act like I 100% want kids and be on board and want to be married. I tried to distinguish that if we can't find common ground on fundamental things there really can't be a future.

That aside I'm seeking free individual consoling from my university. What bothers me is she really just wants to know what I want which I'm not sure. I've always talked about the business ventures I'd like to do, the places I'd like to travel, the more i'd like to compete at the gym-but these have kind of been wishes more than concrete things. I've always felt like I want to establish a financial future and such but aside from that I do a lot of whatever. I also want to be with her, which is the hardest part because I understand without those definite YES on kid/marraige-it's not going to be right for her or me in the long run. She did know she wants kids and she always saw them as with me so it was hard for her to here those aren't my goals right now. Being asked what I want is just nearly impossible to answer because I never pursue the things I want. For instance-i'll go to the gym a few nights a week but no way could I commit to the 2x a day schedule and still have time for a relationship/work and such required to compete/travel. And it's not her fault I mean it's just compounded by home ownership, dogs, etc etc.

A commitment was always something I shied away from. Not commitment in the relationship-but even talking about marriage/ the future. Shoot-I wouldn't even say I loved her until the second year in as it was this weird internalized commitment factor for me. When we took a break about 3 years back I had been taking her for granted/putzing around all day/she wanted to go off to school and be a speech pathologist and saw absolutely no commitment from me. It took that break up to realize I wanted to be with her. I've been mulling it over in my head and I've thought way more about it this time and believe in at least that aspect I am better prepared to handle a potential breakup this time because it's not "out of the blue" and we have concrete reasons/needs on both sides.

Anyways just a little heads up. We are still together but I know she's hurt now that she knows I don't feel the same. I feel it at least derailed her idea that I was just in a phase and would change my mind overnight at least (if that's how she was feeling)

BeanCounter

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But it isnít about making this work or being alone. You are still really young. You can break up, rediscover who you are, grow, and meet someone else who you are more compatible with.
This is just so unhealthy. She is trying to demand commitment and kids from you. And your trying to keep her on the shelf until you figure out what you really want.

Linea_Norway

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It sounds like your GF wants to be sure whether you want children and want to stay with her. I can imagine she wouldn't be looking forward to getting a child with someone who doesn't want them and who disappears from her life quickly after. That would leave her alone with the kid. Maybe she wants to ensure that won't happen.

zoochadookdook

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It sounds like your GF wants to be sure whether you want children and want to stay with her. I can imagine she wouldn't be looking forward to getting a child with someone who doesn't want them and who disappears from her life quickly after. That would leave her alone with the kid. Maybe she wants to ensure that won't happen.

Yeah of course, she wants to ensure she has a future in line with her goals, which I understand. I just don't currently see the point/benefit of getting married. It could be the social pressure/stipulations on females are much higher from friends, family, society/her own personal beliefs and goals have always pointed to it, which makes it a logical step. I'm not against the idea of marriage; just not at this point in my life/relationship.

mountain mustache

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Based on what you just said, you need to cut her free and let her go find that with someone else. If you know that you don't want those things now, or possibly ever, it is unfair of you to stay with her, keeping her hoping that one day you will change your mind. She deserves to have the things she wants in a relationship, just like you do. It's super obvious from your last couple of posts that it makes no sense for you to stay together, but neither of you is ready to rip the bandaid off and just deal with what will be a painful breakup...but in the end will make you both SO much happier.

zoochadookdook

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But it isnít about making this work or being alone. You are still really young. You can break up, rediscover who you are, grow, and meet someone else who you are more compatible with.
This is just so unhealthy. She is trying to demand commitment and kids from you. And your trying to keep her on the shelf until you figure out what you really want.

Sure and I've told her that. I've said my want to be together is selfish and unrealistic if our fundamental goals do not line up. I don't want to break up but she will be able to actually find someone who matches these goals if we do, which is not the tar pit of trying to change each other we are stuck in. She's not demanding anymore-really just asking what I do want so she will know whether or not it includes her as stated prior.

zoochadookdook

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Based on what you just said, you need to cut her free and let her go find that with someone else. If you know that you don't want those things now, or possibly ever, it is unfair of you to stay with her, keeping her hoping that one day you will change your mind. She deserves to have the things she wants in a relationship, just like you do. It's super obvious from your last couple of posts that it makes no sense for you to stay together, but neither of you is ready to rip the bandaid off and just deal with what will be a painful breakup...but in the end will make you both SO much happier.

That very well may be true and how it ends. It is hard. It is emotional. It does seem sudden as we did JUST start all this a month ago after no real conflict for years (well at least on the surface).

mountain mustache

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Based on what you just said, you need to cut her free and let her go find that with someone else. If you know that you don't want those things now, or possibly ever, it is unfair of you to stay with her, keeping her hoping that one day you will change your mind. She deserves to have the things she wants in a relationship, just like you do. It's super obvious from your last couple of posts that it makes no sense for you to stay together, but neither of you is ready to rip the bandaid off and just deal with what will be a painful breakup...but in the end will make you both SO much happier.

That very well may be true and how it ends. It is hard. It is emotional. It does seem sudden as we did JUST start all this a month ago after no real conflict for years (well at least on the surface).

I think the suddenness is really good, though...don't spend any more of your life trying to decide if you want to be with someone. If it was right, you would know and you would not be asking a Internet forum full of strangers for advice. But, to empathize,  I know it is probably a shock that all of a sudden here you are having to make this decision. It sucks, I know. It will be really really hard, but then it will get better. It's amazing how fast it will get better, and suddenly you will realize that it was a decision you could have made even earlier on.

Captain FIRE

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There are many things about this thread that drive me nuts, but this one can be fixed quite easily.

I did speak to the consoler about focusing on our individual needs in relationship therapy vs individual

That aside I'm seeking free individual consoling from my university.

coun∑sel∑ing
[ˈkouns(ə)liNG] NOUN
the provision of assistance and guidance in resolving personal, social, or psychological problems and difficulties, especially by a professional.

consoling
[kənˈsōliNG] ADJECTIVE
serving to comfort someone at a time of grief or disappointment.


Unless it's a Freudian slip?  In which case that should tell you something.

On a separate note, exactly how much of her bills do you pay for her?  You pay for the therapy and the house is yours.  Does she contribute a fair share towards rent, utilities, groceries, etc?  If not, part of her may also be afraid at how her life might change if you break up.