Author Topic: 7 year relationship. No sexual desire. She wants to get married. Any Counselors?  (Read 66037 times)

ysette9

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Out of curiosity (and feel free to say if it is too personal) is there a reason she isn’t stopping birth control today instead of later this month?

yep we had a cruise planned 15th-26th and when girls get off bc their hormones go wonky. She's missed a pill or 2 and had to recycle a few times and it always gives her some nasua/breaking out. She wanted to have a nice vacation.
Fair enough

MDfive21

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So talking last night went in circles.


This whole thread is going in circles. I can see why you are together. You're perfectly fulfilling each other's codependent needs.

Kudos for following through with counseling.

zoochadookdook

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So talking last night went in circles.


This whole thread is going in circles. I can see why you are together. You're perfectly fulfilling each other's codependent needs.

Kudos for following through with counseling.

Lol we are codependent; but determining compatibility and ability to work on our relationship is outside of that apparently hence all the extra blah

zoochadookdook

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

PoutineLover

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It's really good that you are finally having these conversations, even though it should have started earlier. Just because you've accepted not having sex for the past few years, doesn't mean you want to go without it for the rest of your life, which clearly you don't. She doesn't seem to understand that, or she just wants to get engaged so bad that she doesn't care. Engagement should mean the intention to get married, and getting married should mean the intention to stay together for the rest of your lives. It is critical to make the right decision, and not move it along just because you're supposed to, or you're at that age, or you live together anyway, or whatever easy justification you find. If you don't go into this wholeheartedly, knowing that it's what you want, you will probably end up regretting it, and it'll be that much harder to change your mind later. What's to stop her from moving the goalposts after engagement to saying that she'll try to have sex - after the marriage? She seems to be making it clear that she doesn't really care what your needs are - she just wants a ring, and she doesn't seem to care about your reservations. That should raise serious red flags.

GreenSheep

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Engagement is not a goal. Marriage is not a goal. They are not things to "work toward." They are things that happen organically when both of you feel completely happy with your relationship and cannot imagine doing anything else. There's no time frame. There's no "well, we've been together for this long, so it's time to get married." Dating is a time to get to know each other and see if you're compatible for marriage. It seems like you've spent an overly long time figuring out that the answer is no. Good friends, maybe. Lovers and partners for life, no.

What's next? "We've been married X years, so it's time to start having kids"?! Or "We need to really solidify our marriage by having a kid." Or "Kid #1 is X years old, so it's time to have Kid #2." That's fine if you both want kids and if you both feel the timing is right, but you can't live your life according to some sort of agenda.

partgypsy

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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk that "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 08:42:57 AM by partgypsy »

Malkynn

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Maybe have your girlfriend read this thread.

You talk about lacking the skill to communicate this to her clearly, but you are clear as day in this thread with total strangers on the internet.

I'm getting that it's not what you are trying to say, it's the ears that your words are falling on, which seem to not want to hear anything other than "okay, I'll buy a ring".

Cool Friend

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I dunno, I feel like having her read this thread will just make her feel attacked/ganged up on/humiliated that you shared your personal history with internet strangers (though I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing that, you do need unbiased people to talk to about this).

zoochadookdook

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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk with any of these people that hmm, "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.

yeah I've suggested her talking to her girlfriends but she's embarrassed/sex isn't something she openly talks about with her family either. I'm all for it though! I think an outside perspective would be a breath of fresh air vs our normal this/that pressure back and forth would be welcome. I'll try to bring it up tonight at counseling. She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.

Malkynn

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Is she not aware that you are talking to people on the internet about her????


zoochadookdook

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Is she not aware that you are talking to people on the internet about her????

I've brought up that I've posted in forums and such but at the same time there's a lot of raw and potentially over the top advice in here that i've attempted to screen through to the best of my ability. For instance a few pages back-I don't think reading that "I should dump her asap because if she hasn't been jerking me off for years she obviously doesn't care" is beneficial to her. She has a self worth that does depend on me to a degree (everyone has said it shouldn't but when someone in a relationship tells you they don't want what you want in a relationship it does affect your self worth/happiness) and i'm trying to work with her to the best of my ability.

zoochadookdook

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I dunno, I feel like having her read this thread will just make her feel attacked/ganged up on/humiliated that you shared your personal history with internet strangers (though I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing that, you do need unbiased people to talk to about this).

Kind of my sentiments. Although I don't believe she should feel personally humiliated/ganged up on i'd see why she could and that's not something I want to put her through.

GreenSheep

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She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.

This suggests to me that she's built up your relationship to be The Perfect Relationship in the minds of her friends and family, and anything other than marriage would mean that she has somehow failed. No wonder she's pressuring you to get engaged. And they're all probably asking why you're not married yet (not that they should or that it's any of their business, but that's unfortunately what people do). Seems like she needs to have better communication not just with you but with everyone else in her life, too.

former player

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement?  I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged.  If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs.  It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement.  If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.

Kris

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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk with any of these people that hmm, "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.

yeah I've suggested her talking to her girlfriends but she's embarrassed/sex isn't something she openly talks about with her family either. I'm all for it though! I think an outside perspective would be a breath of fresh air vs our normal this/that pressure back and forth would be welcome. I'll try to bring it up tonight at counseling. She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.

The fact she thinks twenty minutes of embarrassment trumps trying to make you happier in your relationship tells me a lot about her.

Tyson

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If your counselor offers 90 minute sessions, I'd recommend doing that.  I found often that an hour was too short.  "Just" as we were getting to the real heart of the matter, session would end.  90 minutes is a better format, IMO, especially in the beginning.

Raenia

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement?  I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged.  If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs.  It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement.  If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.

+1  I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to.  She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness.  That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you.  Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?

zoochadookdook

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It's really good that you are finally having these conversations, even though it should have started earlier. Just because you've accepted not having sex for the past few years, doesn't mean you want to go without it for the rest of your life, which clearly you don't. She doesn't seem to understand that, or she just wants to get engaged so bad that she doesn't care. Engagement should mean the intention to get married, and getting married should mean the intention to stay together for the rest of your lives. It is critical to make the right decision, and not move it along just because you're supposed to, or you're at that age, or you live together anyway, or whatever easy justification you find. If you don't go into this wholeheartedly, knowing that it's what you want, you will probably end up regretting it, and it'll be that much harder to change your mind later. What's to stop her from moving the goalposts after engagement to saying that she'll try to have sex - after the marriage? She seems to be making it clear that she doesn't really care what your needs are - she just wants a ring, and she doesn't seem to care about your reservations. That should raise serious red flags.

I'm happy that at least we're communicating even though we're on different pages. I've tried to make it clean why I can't go in with any regrets and she sees that as a personal affront to her as a individual/her rejection as she is. As bad as it sounds it essentially is a rejection of proposal due to how our relationship is.

Captain FIRE

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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk with any of these people that hmm, "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.

yeah I've suggested her talking to her girlfriends but she's embarrassed/sex isn't something she openly talks about with her family either. I'm all for it though! I think an outside perspective would be a breath of fresh air vs our normal this/that pressure back and forth would be welcome. I'll try to bring it up tonight at counseling. She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.

The fact she thinks twenty minutes of embarrassment trumps trying to make you happier in your relationship tells me a lot about her.

It's not just 20 minutes of embarrassment though, it's the fact that they'll then know.  You've let the cat out of the bag and you can't pretend things are the same afterwards.  My in-laws were told that one kid suspected cheating by their spouse.  This has - 15 years later - still tainted interactions in that the kid thinks they continue to hold it against the spouse/don't like the spouse (and possibly that kid is right).  Heck I wasn't around then and I've heard the story.

That said - I think you can raise to her the very fact that she is embarrassed/afraid to share might suggest she knows this is something they would have concerns about.  That it IS a big deal for a lot of people and she can't just sweep it under the rug because it's not a relationship aspect that is important to her. 

(Also worthwhile adding that you are very sorry for not having raised it sooner, that you made a mistake in letting her think your relationship was good/perfect for so so so long when in reality you weren't entirely happy, but you have a chance now to fix things now that it's out in the open.)

zoochadookdook

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement?  I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged.  If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs.  It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement.  If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.

+1  I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to.  She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness.  That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you.  Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?

Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.

zoochadookdook

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It's really good that you are finally having these conversations, even though it should have started earlier. Just because you've accepted not having sex for the past few years, doesn't mean you want to go without it for the rest of your life, which clearly you don't. She doesn't seem to understand that, or she just wants to get engaged so bad that she doesn't care. Engagement should mean the intention to get married, and getting married should mean the intention to stay together for the rest of your lives. It is critical to make the right decision, and not move it along just because you're supposed to, or you're at that age, or you live together anyway, or whatever easy justification you find. If you don't go into this wholeheartedly, knowing that it's what you want, you will probably end up regretting it, and it'll be that much harder to change your mind later. What's to stop her from moving the goalposts after engagement to saying that she'll try to have sex - after the marriage? She seems to be making it clear that she doesn't really care what your needs are - she just wants a ring, and she doesn't seem to care about your reservations. That should raise serious red flags.

She doesn't seem to be able to feel how important it is and that shows me she just isn't as interested/it isn't as important to it. It would be harder to change my mind-i've asked her what would a engagement with reservations be? not honest in my opinion. She wants to know WHAT I need to feel ready to get engaged and it's not like one answer. She hates feeling pressured in this way as she doesn't know if she can feel the emotions (not just do the act but actually get a libido). I think every time we talk about it she takes it as compounding stress vs actually considering the options of waiting to get engaged until we work this out.

zoochadookdook

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement?  I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged.  If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs.  It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement.  If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.

She seems to view it as something she wanted to wait until engagement to work on for whatever internal principals/beliefs. I don't want to say it was "testing to see if i'd leave" or anything like that-I just think her actual conception of sex changed early on and any physical hindrances (BC for years) certainly doesn't provide any actual feelings for her to apply to changing that.

zoochadookdook

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Engagement is not a goal. Marriage is not a goal. They are not things to "work toward." They are things that happen organically when both of you feel completely happy with your relationship and cannot imagine doing anything else. There's no time frame. There's no "well, we've been together for this long, so it's time to get married." Dating is a time to get to know each other and see if you're compatible for marriage. It seems like you've spent an overly long time figuring out that the answer is no. Good friends, maybe. Lovers and partners for life, no.

What's next? "We've been married X years, so it's time to start having kids"?! Or "We need to really solidify our marriage by having a kid." Or "Kid #1 is X years old, so it's time to have Kid #2." That's fine if you both want kids and if you both feel the timing is right, but you can't live your life according to some sort of agenda.

I feel like if getting married at some point in your life is something you want-it should be a goal. Rather said-dating with intent-the goal is to see if you are compatible enough to get married. I understand people want kids too and those are goals to them as well.

Raenia

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement?  I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged.  If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs.  It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement.  If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.

+1  I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to.  She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness.  That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you.  Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?

Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.

You keep doing this redirect, into how she feels and why she feels that way.  It's great that you understand her feelings, but that's not the point we're trying to make.  Your feelings matter too, and she is showing no regard for you.  You've said you are unhappy and have a need for a physical relationship, and she (and frequently you, as well) immediately pivot to HER feelings and justifications and "I'll think about meeting your needs if you just do this for me first..."  That is not healthy.  She's not interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy," she is only interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy enough to marry her."  Do you see the difference?

jps

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement?  I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged.  If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs.  It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement.  If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.

+1  I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to.  She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness.  That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you.  Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?

Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.

You keep doing this redirect, into how she feels and why she feels that way.  It's great that you understand her feelings, but that's not the point we're trying to make.  Your feelings matter too, and she is showing no regard for you.  You've said you are unhappy and have a need for a physical relationship, and she (and frequently you, as well) immediately pivot to HER feelings and justifications and "I'll think about meeting your needs if you just do this for me first..."  That is not healthy.  She's not interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy," she is only interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy enough to marry her."  Do you see the difference?

I tried extra hard to hit 100 posts so I could reply here.

Just wanted to say, Raenia is right. You are doing a very good job at explaining her feelings to us. But, you don't address what almost everyone here is saying, which is that she seems to really be ignoring what you have to say.

WhiteTrashCash

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Ok, time to get completely serious with my comments: You should tell your girlfriend to get a dog for companionship. Then, you should dump her and date somebody else. Everybody's problems get solved and everyone gets what they really want.

GoConfidently

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I understand you’re both hoping her low libido is because of the BC, but the bigger problem is that it doesn’t sound like she wants to want a healthy, fulfilling, exciting, loving sexual relationship with you. People who have medical reasons for no/low libido can still want to be physically intimate, to connect with their partner, to demonstrate their love and passion for each other. If she doesn’t want to want you, the BC change will not make any positive difference for your relationship.

So, maybe instead of expressing your desire/need to establish a physical relationship, you should ask point blank if she wants to feel differently about your sex life. If she’s fine without even desiring a sexual relationship, you’ll never be happy together because you’re incompatible. Not bad. Not damaged. Not unlovable. Just incompatible. Really good friends who care about each other and have fun together and cherish the time you spent together before moving on to find compatible partners.

jeninco

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I was trying to find a way to be more delicate, but this:

Ok, time to get completely serious with my comments: You should tell your girlfriend to get a dog for companionship. Then, you should dump her and date somebody else. Everybody's problems get solved and everyone gets what they really want.

is pretty much exactly what I think, too.

Kris

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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.

Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement?  I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged.  If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs.  It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement.  If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.

+1  I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to.  She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness.  That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you.  Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?

Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.

You keep doing this redirect, into how she feels and why she feels that way.  It's great that you understand her feelings, but that's not the point we're trying to make.  Your feelings matter too, and she is showing no regard for you.  You've said you are unhappy and have a need for a physical relationship, and she (and frequently you, as well) immediately pivot to HER feelings and justifications and "I'll think about meeting your needs if you just do this for me first..."  That is not healthy.  She's not interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy," she is only interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy enough to marry her."  Do you see the difference?

Yes.

OP, I don’t get the feeling she has really ever said, “I hear that sex is something you need in a life partner, and I understand that and respect that,” without qualifying it.

Instead, what it seems she keeps doing is redirecting to her, making the fact that you want regular sex as a part of your marriage not something that you need — and therefore something that is important, because it is important to you — but rather something that hurts her feelings.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 06:07:23 PM by Kris »

Malkynn

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^Agreed.

Not only is she completely failing to respect and validate your needs, she turns your needs into some kind of attack on her, which is unhealthy.

Also, her "need" isn't a need at all.
There is no need to get engaged. She thinks she has a need to get engaged, but it's nonsense. What she needs is to feel secure and wanted as she is.
Well, an engagement WILL NOT do that for her. I 100% guarantee this. Thinking that it will is also nonsense.

As well, you don't actually want her as she is. The simple truth is that if she is fundamentally asexual, she's not really what you want, which is OKAY.

Deep, deep, deep down, I think she knows this and I think this is why she's so fixated on you "committing" to her, because she's convinced herself that if you propose, then this fundamental problem in your relationship isn't going to actually be a problem.

Well...that's not how it works.
Again, engagement won't fix anything. In fact, both engagement and marriage will absolutely make this problem worse. Several of us have told you that. Take the warning seriously.

Also, where is her "need" for an engagement even coming from??? It doesn't sound like she's super religious, so what?? Social pressure? Expectation? Does her "need" to get married have literally anything to do with you really? I got engaged because at that age the pressure is overwhelming. That's a completely invalid reason to get engaged, and I feel like a proper idiot in retrospect.

Her "need" for an engagement isn't a need at all, it's a desperate illusion that it will magically make her feel better about something that you CANNOT fix for her.

Meanwhile, your needs are actual, simple, human biological needs that are 100% reasonable...and she doesn't seem to give a shit about them.

Her response "well, we've been fine all along, I don't get why it's an issue now" and "if you need sex, then I need an engagement to even try" and "that hurts my feelings"
She seems to show literally no validation or recognition of your needs or even emotional experience.

What's worse, as several people have pointed out, is that even *you* don't seem to give your own emotions and experience much weight. You're here arguing over and over and over for her side of things. You've barely even touched on your own experience. It's...unsettling to read.

All of this points to a relationship that just isn't as good and healthy as you seem to think it is. It's not just sex that's missing from your relationship, it's communication and mutual respect. As in, it's missing virtually ALL of the cornerstones of a good relationship.

You guys are really great friends. That's it.

runbikerun

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If you don't think you can manage a life without sex and all that entails, then this is not a relationship you can stay in. From reading the thread, your partner seems completely unable or unwilling to accept that reasonably regular sex is, for you, an essential component of a life together. "Maybe things would get better if you proposed" is not a serious suggestion: it's sex as a bargaining chip, which is horribly emotionally unhealthy.

If you have a high libido, and your partner has a very low libido or none, then you need to be comfortable with the idea of having sex perhaps a dozen times in the rest of your life. You need to be comfortable with the idea of logging onto Pornhub to release tension every time your partner is out of the house for a few hours. You need to be comfortable with changing the way you socialise to avoid any risk that someone cute takes a shine to you when your partner isn't around. And once you propose, knowing that it's quite possible her libido will never change, you need to be comfortable with never directing your frustration at your partner for continuing to live exactly as she has for the last several years.

If you're comfortable with that, and you think you can live a happy life like that, then go ahead. But don't go down that road unless you're sure you're willing to live at the end of it.

zoochadookdook

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4th Counseling session last night. That was a doozy.

I think both of us are so tired of talking about the negatives and the unhappiness. She feels like she's "failed" me through our relationship and can only explain her desire to be married as something she wants for multiple reasons (commitment, the promise of sharing a life together no matter what, etc etc). On here it's easy to say marriage isn't a goal but she's been thinking about it for years.

A breakthrough was that she does realize she has to change if she wants to keep me. That's wearing on her hard because she feels it's a ton of pressure and vulnerability to go back on these ideas that we would wait until engagement-especially now still trying to realize that I haven't been thinking about marriage and such with how long we've been together. It's hard to say as I guess I have kind of thought about it but it's never been a goal or focus-I figured if we both wanted it to happen some day it would happen-but that requires a happy relationship and life circumstances. She says if we do start having sex and she lets herself go in that way it's going to suck way more from her point of view (self esteem etc) if we break up-because that's just kind of a rejection of her.

She's still wanting me to order the ring despite me saying without the promise of engagement or intention of it-it's just a item. She says it represents my dedication to wanting to get married in her mind/determination that we're both working towards that. That was the biggest source of conflict last night as she feels i'm just not giving anything towards that goal while she has to fundamentally change herself if she wants to try to stay with me.

We talked about children at the session as well. She wants them and it's a deal breaker not too. I don't know how I feel about them and don't know if i'll want them or not-the irony is it's pretty much how I feel about sex/intamacy. She still doesn't think she can offer more emotionally aside from the physical recconect of sex/establish that it's something we both like and to try to make it more frequent from there-but that's also something that she associates with us advancing our relationship towards marriage. It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship. It seems to her that by not saying I want to get married/don't know how i'll feel if we establish intimacy-i'm giving myself an out and no real thought or respect or her want to get married.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 06:48:51 AM by zoochadookdook »

Raenia

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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.

To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself.  She does not want to be doing it for you.

This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you.  She has no interest in opening up to make you happy.  Full stop.  She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda.  She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants.  She is being 100% selfish here.  She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return.  Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?

Kris

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4th Counseling session last night. That was a doozy.

I think both of us are so tired of talking about the negatives and the unhappiness. She feels like she's "failed" me through our relationship and can only explain her desire to be married as something she wants for multiple reasons (commitment, the promise of sharing a life together no matter what, etc etc). On here it's easy to say marriage isn't a goal but she's been thinking about it for years.

A breakthrough was that she does realize she has to change if she wants to keep me. That's wearing on her hard because she feels it's a ton of pressure and vulnerability to go back on these ideas that we would wait until engagement-especially now still trying to realize that I haven't been thinking about marriage and such with how long we've been together. It's hard to say as I guess I have kind of thought about it but it's never been a goal or focus-I figured if we both wanted it to happen some day it would happen-but that requires a happy relationship and life circumstances. She says if we do start having sex and she lets herself go in that way it's going to suck way more from her point of view (self esteem etc) if we break up-because that's just kind of a rejection of her.

She's still wanting me to order the ring despite me saying without the promise of engagement or intention of it-it's just a item. She says it represents my dedication to wanting to get married in her mind/determination that we're both working towards that. That was the biggest source of conflict last night as she feels i'm just not giving anything towards that goal while she has to fundamentally change herself if she wants to try to stay with me.

We talked about children at the session as well. She wants them and it's a deal breaker not too. I don't know how I feel about them and don't know if i'll want them or not-the irony is it's pretty much how I feel about sex/intamacy. She still doesn't think she can offer more emotionally aside from the physical recconect of sex/establish that it's something we both like and to try to make it more frequent from there-but that's also something that she associates with us advancing our relationship towards marriage. It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship. It seems to her that by not saying I want to get married/don't know how i'll feel if we establish intimacy-i'm giving myself an out and no real thought or respect or her want to get married.

So she doesn’t want to start having sex because her partner has a need for it. She only wants to have sex if it will get her the marriage she wants.

Ugh.

Malkynn

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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.

I agree. Ugh.

Cool Friend

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4th Counseling session last night. That was a doozy.

I think both of us are so tired of talking about the negatives and the unhappiness. She feels like she's "failed" me through our relationship and can only explain her desire to be married as something she wants for multiple reasons (commitment, the promise of sharing a life together no matter what, etc etc). On here it's easy to say marriage isn't a goal but she's been thinking about it for years.

A breakthrough was that she does realize she has to change if she wants to keep me. That's wearing on her hard because she feels it's a ton of pressure and vulnerability to go back on these ideas that we would wait until engagement-especially now still trying to realize that I haven't been thinking about marriage and such with how long we've been together. It's hard to say as I guess I have kind of thought about it but it's never been a goal or focus-I figured if we both wanted it to happen some day it would happen-but that requires a happy relationship and life circumstances. She says if we do start having sex and she lets herself go in that way it's going to suck way more from her point of view (self esteem etc) if we break up-because that's just kind of a rejection of her.

She's still wanting me to order the ring despite me saying without the promise of engagement or intention of it-it's just a item. She says it represents my dedication to wanting to get married in her mind/determination that we're both working towards that. That was the biggest source of conflict last night as she feels i'm just not giving anything towards that goal while she has to fundamentally change herself if she wants to try to stay with me.

We talked about children at the session as well. She wants them and it's a deal breaker not too. I don't know how I feel about them and don't know if i'll want them or not-the irony is it's pretty much how I feel about sex/intamacy. She still doesn't think she can offer more emotionally aside from the physical recconect of sex/establish that it's something we both like and to try to make it more frequent from there-but that's also something that she associates with us advancing our relationship towards marriage. It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship. It seems to her that by not saying I want to get married/don't know how i'll feel if we establish intimacy-i'm giving myself an out and no real thought or respect or her want to get married.

I'm sorry to say it, but she's not mature enough for an adult relationship, let alone marriage or children.  She wants an invincible guarantee of security in a relationship.  That is not possible, especially when she's showing no interest or willingness to do the things that make relationships more secure--intimacy, communication, compassion for your partner's needs.

She wants you to buy an engagement ring without actually getting an engaged?  Is she hoping that once you have the ring you'll want to propose?  She is bullying you on this point.  You don't want to get engaged and she's pushing you to buy a ring.  Hell, why doesn't she propose to you if she wants it that bad?  She's manipulating you.

This relationship isn't just codependent.  It's toxic and one-sided.  For your own mental health and happiness, I really hope you make the difficult choice of breaking up, getting her out of your home, and doing some deep inner work to discover your own needs and worth as a person.  You're worth it.

zoochadookdook

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I think if she had told me earlier *much earlier* her goals to be married and her views on waiting until marraige/engagement to have sex again-I think this would be easier to sort out.

Unfortunately  it accumulated to her being ready and feeling like i must be ready (because hey our relationship is great from her standpoint and thus i'm happy too) and now she thinks there's something wrong with her/wants to fix the reason I'm giving her that I don't feel ready for marriage.  She doesn't see how she can work on the relationship and get a legitimate answer of when/what will make me ready for marriage-which makes her feel frustrated and unable to see what she should do. He actual happiness is being derived from being engaged.

I keep telling her I don't know when I can feel ready for marriage as she understandably wants to know (she has been and is ready)-and it just hurts her every time because it feels like a direct rejection of her. She wants to have sex before engagement/marriage but she's holding onto that-and considering how long she's wanted to be married/seen that goal (at least 4 years or so) It's not possible for her to just ignore that and focus on fixing a relationship. She feels if I don't know by now, and won't possibly know when x happens.....then when? And I can understand that.

I said "I feel like your need to be engaged is more important than the need to fix our relationship" but she said it's not. It's hard to explain though-I think she views them as things that can happen together or can correlate and link together/in tandem but I can't know that.


« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 07:09:41 AM by zoochadookdook »

zoochadookdook

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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.

I agree. Ugh.

To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc). 

runbikerun

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God, but this is sad to read.

Your partner has some severe self-esteem issues. On top of that, she has essentially zero libido. And on top of that again, she's fixated on the idea that a physical marker of "commitment" will solve all of your relationship issues. This is wildly unhealthy.

This idea that she's doing all the work is, to put it politely, dead wrong. You've expressed a legitimate concern with your relationship as it stands, and her reaction to this has been to suggest that maybe getting engaged will solve it. Nothing else. She's not "doing all the work": she hasn't done anything so far, and having a healthy sexual relationship should not be "work" to start with.

As for the heavy implication that she'll be even more crushed if she starts having sex and you then break up, it'll be even worse for her: this is simply not a healthy relationship or anything close to it. Everything you're describing is indicative of a desire on her part to get an engagement ring and a husband without having to concede or change anything. She wants you to link yourself more tightly to her without her accepting any need to work on something you've clearly identified as a sticking point for you, beyond the vague suggestion that her libido might return if you buy a ring.

I said it above, and I'll say it again. If you buy a ring, if you propose, you are essentially confirming to your partner that things are alright as they are and that vague hints that maybe sex will make a return are enough for you. Listen to the overwhelming majority of voices here: you have made it clear that your lack of a sex life is a deal-breaker for you, and she is actively refusing to even start working on it unless you buy an engagement ring. Walk away, and let her work through whatever issues and problems she has in her own time. Your own future happiness is on the line here, and while your empathy is admirable, nobody is going to act as an advocate for your interests except you. Call time on the relationship and find someone who can deal with differing expectations without demanding a ring or a proposal.

Roots&Wings

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Yeah, this is a lot to happen out of the blue! But it is a fundamental difference. The important thing is whether you both feel this is worth pursuing and having a life together. Marriage and kids and sex are pretty important to be on the same page.

runbikerun

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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.

I agree. Ugh.

To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc).

A healthy sex life should not be a chore for your partner. What you're seeking is absolutely reasonable and entirely fair, while withholding any willingness to work towards that until an engagement ring is produced is emotional blackmail.

mountain mustache

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what it comes down to is that you do not want to give her what she wants (reasonable) and she does not want to give you what you want (also reasonable). Thats fine. Stop trying to find what you want in each other, break up, and go be free and happy to find that elsewhere. She does not understand that having sex is a fundamental part of a relationship to you, and does not want to give you that simply because she loves you...no, she wants to give you that IF you want to marry her. That's totally fine, for her, but in the past 6 pages of thread you have expressed that it doesn't work like that for you.

It really is simple, your priorities are not aligned, and now it sounds like kids are being thrown in as another thing that you do not align on. I would kindly separate the relationship, move on, and do some self work, and also figure out the qualities you desire in a life long partner.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 07:22:47 AM by mountain mustache »

zoochadookdook

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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.

To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself.  She does not want to be doing it for you.

This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you.  She has no interest in opening up to make you happy.  Full stop.  She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda.  She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants.  She is being 100% selfish here.  She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return.  Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?

She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?

former player

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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.

I agree. Ugh.

To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc). 

Actually, there is very little in this whole long thread that tells me that what you want is to have a sexual relationship with this woman and to marry her.  We've heard a whole lot about what she wants, and very little about what you want (other than for you sex and marriage go together - which is the most normal thing I've found in this whole thread).  The fact that the two of you have shared a house/bed for the last six years without having sex pretty much tells me that she is not the one for you and never will be.

Also, look at this from your friend's point of view: she had a relationship lasting a few months when she was 18.  That relationship ended (for good reasons) and has never been re-established - the friendship between you was re-established, but not the relationship.  Now, 6 years later, she is saying that she expects marriage, and has done so for a long time but without actually telling you so (or, as Cool Friend points out, actually doing the hard work and asking you).  That looks pretty crazy to me - she has been building castles in the sky for years, and is now trying to guilt you into building them for her.

I think the worst thing you can do is persist with this fantasy that there is a relationship between the two of you that could lead to marriage.  Please, for your sake and hers you need to put an end to this untenable situation and set both of you free to make better lives for yourselves, separately. Forget the cruise (sunk cost), move out of the same bedroom if you are still in it, and set a deadline for one or other of you leaving the house you are sharing (and if she is the one who stays, she pays you full market rent, no excuses).

Malkynn

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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.

I agree. Ugh.

To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc).

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. NO!

The two are not AT ALL comparable and it's bonkers to think that they are.

She is looking for guarantees that you cannot give her.
You are asking for her to try and work on meeting your reasonable needs.

If you can't meet her needs emotionally, the answer is for her to fucking leave you, not to try and bully you into a bullshit fake promise of security that literally means nothing and that WILL make her feel worse in the end.

You are honestly telling her what your needs are and that you are concerned about a long-term future with her if your needs aren't met.

There's a goddamn difference and it's infuriating that you can't even see that for yourself.

Honestly, you are now arguing with strangers on the internet against your own best interest. That's the biggest red flag in this whole cluster fuck.

Countless people have expressed heartfelt and serious concern for you and you've all but totally disregarded every single comment that relates to you in any way shape or form.

The biggest defense of your well being should not be coming from people who don't even know you and have no reason to care. If that doesn't jolt you awake, I have no idea what will.

Raenia

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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.

To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself.  She does not want to be doing it for you.

This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you.  She has no interest in opening up to make you happy.  Full stop.  She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda.  She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants.  She is being 100% selfish here.  She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return.  Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?

She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?

All of those reasons are about her, not about you.  You are still redirecting, and allowing her to redirect.  That is not a positive.  That is very much a negative.  She has not tried at all to see this through your lens, to validate your feelings, or try to understand what you need to be happy.  Note I said to be happy, not to marry her.  She is only interested in what you need to marry her, not in making you happy.  You should not marry someone who does not want to make you happy.

Please, please, read and reread all the advice we have given you.  Stop defending her, and start defending yourself.

Malkynn

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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.

To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself.  She does not want to be doing it for you.

This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you.  She has no interest in opening up to make you happy.  Full stop.  She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda.  She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants.  She is being 100% selfish here.  She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return.  Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?

She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?

She doesn't have a need to be married, she has a fixation on marriage as a solution to her problems and she is fundamentally and critically wrong.

runbikerun

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I feel this needs to be said:

If there were a reliable betting market for this kind of thing, and you came back in six months to say you'd proposed and were now having reasonably regular sex, I'd put a decade's worth of pension contributions on the sex drying up again once the wedding was done.

partgypsy

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As other have said, she has a self-esteem issue that her self-worth is tied up being engaged/married as indicators of her self-worth. I honestly think that you two separating would be best for both you and her in the long term. You could find someone who doesn't find loving up on someone they care about as a chore. And even if it is hard and tough, she will learn to see herself as an individual with a self-worth SEPARATE from your relationship or commitment level. Honestly if you love and care for her as a person, the best thing to do is separate so she can do that work. It's not going to happen with you two emmeshed like this.

Think of the alternative. You get engaged, you end up breaking up either before or even after you are married (for obvious fundamental differences). Now emotionally, mentally ALL her eggs are in one basket, she hasn't developed resilience and identity separate from being a "happily married" part of a couple. That's a worse fate to put her through.

You are young and both of you will survive this. Both of you have some growing up to do.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 07:45:11 AM by partgypsy »