Author Topic: 2020 POTUS Candidates  (Read 183002 times)

Roadrunner53

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #650 on: August 11, 2019, 02:17:50 PM »
I do think we need some fresh blood in the White House and new ideas on how to solve issues. Trump is like a person from the 1940's with his backward thinking of the environment, coal mines and treating immigrants like garbage. Biden is probably a good choice but he is old and tired. I just hope, whatever candidate we get will win the votes and get Trump, his family and cronies out of the White House. America has been thru hell with this president. Time to get a NORMAL person in office, start picking up the pieces and rebuild our country.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #651 on: August 11, 2019, 05:41:55 PM »
I do think we need some fresh blood in the White House and new ideas on how to solve issues. Trump is like a person from the 1940's with his backward thinking of the environment, coal mines and treating immigrants like garbage. Biden is probably a good choice but he is old and tired. I just hope, whatever candidate we get will win the votes and get Trump, his family and cronies out of the White House. America has been thru hell with this president. Time to get a NORMAL person in office, start picking up the pieces and rebuild our country.

1940s - I think history shows us that both Truman and FDR were pretty good presidents.  I remember when I was young the old timers practically worshiped FDR.  I think either one would have tried to actually improve Obamacare either by repeal and replace or other means.  I think both of them tried to actually help people.

Donald will go down in history in a category of his own.

secondcor521

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #652 on: August 15, 2019, 12:18:08 PM »
Surprising absolutely nobody, Hickenlooper calls it quits.

Roadrunner53

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #653 on: August 15, 2019, 01:36:51 PM »
I do think we need some fresh blood in the White House and new ideas on how to solve issues. Trump is like a person from the 1940's with his backward thinking of the environment, coal mines and treating immigrants like garbage. Biden is probably a good choice but he is old and tired. I just hope, whatever candidate we get will win the votes and get Trump, his family and cronies out of the White House. America has been thru hell with this president. Time to get a NORMAL person in office, start picking up the pieces and rebuild our country.

1940s - I think history shows us that both Truman and FDR were pretty good presidents.  I remember when I was young the old timers practically worshiped FDR.  I think either one would have tried to actually improve Obamacare either by repeal and replace or other means.  I think both of them tried to actually help people.

Donald will go down in history in a category of his own.

By 1940's thinking I was referring to people being ignorant of the environment back then, ignorance of coal pollution, disposing chemicals in the ground or in rivers. People did things back then not knowing the outcome. We now know the outcome of this stuff but people with backward thinking still think this stuff is okay to do.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #654 on: August 15, 2019, 02:12:47 PM »
I do think we need some fresh blood in the White House and new ideas on how to solve issues. Trump is like a person from the 1940's with his backward thinking of the environment, coal mines and treating immigrants like garbage. Biden is probably a good choice but he is old and tired. I just hope, whatever candidate we get will win the votes and get Trump, his family and cronies out of the White House. America has been thru hell with this president. Time to get a NORMAL person in office, start picking up the pieces and rebuild our country.

1940s - I think history shows us that both Truman and FDR were pretty good presidents.  I remember when I was young the old timers practically worshiped FDR.  I think either one would have tried to actually improve Obamacare either by repeal and replace or other means.  I think both of them tried to actually help people.

Donald will go down in history in a category of his own.

By 1940's thinking I was referring to people being ignorant of the environment back then, ignorance of coal pollution, disposing chemicals in the ground or in rivers. People did things back then not knowing the outcome. We now know the outcome of this stuff but people with backward thinking still think this stuff is okay to do.

Grandpa told me a little used motor oil around the fence posts will really keep the weeds down

ketchup

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #655 on: August 15, 2019, 02:35:57 PM »
Andrew Yang posted a giant mic-drop blog post today: https://www.yang2020.com/blog/restoring-democracy-rebuilding-trust/

I don't agree with 100% of it, but I agree with most of it.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #656 on: August 15, 2019, 06:43:05 PM »

- SNIP -

1940s - I think history shows us that both Truman and FDR were pretty good presidents.  I remember when I was young the old timers practically worshiped FDR.  I think either one would have tried to actually improve Obamacare either by repeal and replace or other means.  I think both of them tried to actually help people.

Donald will go down in history in a category of his own.

By 1940's thinking I was referring to people being ignorant of the environment back then, ignorance of coal pollution, disposing chemicals in the ground or in rivers. People did things back then not knowing the outcome. We now know the outcome of this stuff but people with backward thinking still think this stuff is okay to do.

Grandpa told me a little used motor oil around the fence posts will really keep the weeds down

It's also good if you dump it in a pond to kill the mosquitoes.

You are right in that many people now believe in that there are limits.  The vast oceans are being polluted with plastic.  That was a way of thinking until the 1960s.  Nixon helped give us the EPA in 1969.  Mr. Trump is trying to remove  the EPA some say.

OurTown

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #657 on: August 16, 2019, 09:10:53 AM »
Here is what I think has happened and what I think is going to happen.  I don't think Biden really wanted to run.  But without Biden, Bernie would have been the front runner and potentially the nominee.  I suspect Biden feared that Bernie could lose the general, so that is why he ran.  Biden became the instant front runner.


Now it looks like we have four leading candidates.  I like Harris a lot, but she seems to be fading in the polls.  I also like Warren a lot.  She is on her way up while Bernie is on his way down.  She might overtake Biden, but that would only happen if Bernie drops out.  Given his history the last time, I suspect he will refuse to drop out even when the writing is on the wall.  If Bernie stays true to form, Biden is your nominee and your next president.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #658 on: August 16, 2019, 09:28:01 AM »
Here is what I think has happened and what I think is going to happen.  I don't think Biden really wanted to run.  But without Biden, Bernie would have been the front runner and potentially the nominee.  I suspect Biden feared that Bernie could lose the general, so that is why he ran.  Biden became the instant front runner.


Now it looks like we have four leading candidates.  I like Harris a lot, but she seems to be fading in the polls.  I also like Warren a lot.  She is on her way up while Bernie is on his way down.  She might overtake Biden, but that would only happen if Bernie drops out.  Given his history the last time, I suspect he will refuse to drop out even when the writing is on the wall.  If Bernie stays true to form, Biden is your nominee and your next president.

If Biden gets most of the delegates, is it allowable for someone, say Bernie, to hand over his or her delegates to another candidate, say Elizabeth Warren putting her over Biden.

OurTown

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #659 on: August 16, 2019, 09:37:48 AM »
From ballotpedia:

The 2020 Democratic presidential nominee will be selected by delegates to the Democratic National Convention, which will be held July 13-16, 2020, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The national nominating convention is the formal ceremony during which the party officially selects its nominee. The delegates are individuals chosen to represent their state or territory at the convention.
In 2020, there will be an estimated 4,532 delegates: 3,768 pledged delegates and 764 automatic delegates—more commonly known as superdelegates.
To win the Democratic nomination, a presidential candidate must receive support from a majority of the pledged delegates on the first ballot—an estimated 1,885 pledged delegates. If the convention is contested and goes to a second ballot or more, automatic delegates will be able to vote and a candidate must receive majority support from all delegates—an estimated 2,267 delegates. Roughly two-thirds of the delegates will have been allocated by the end of March 2020.

* * *

Pledged delegates are elected during primaries, caucuses, or party conventions, and must express either a presidential candidate preference or an uncommitted preference as a condition of their election. Rule 13(J) of the Democratic National Committee defines a pledged delegate's responsibility:
 
Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them.

Gin1984

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #660 on: August 16, 2019, 10:08:21 AM »
Here is what I think has happened and what I think is going to happen.  I don't think Biden really wanted to run.  But without Biden, Bernie would have been the front runner and potentially the nominee.  I suspect Biden feared that Bernie could lose the general, so that is why he ran.  Biden became the instant front runner.


Now it looks like we have four leading candidates.  I like Harris a lot, but she seems to be fading in the polls.  I also like Warren a lot.  She is on her way up while Bernie is on his way down.  She might overtake Biden, but that would only happen if Bernie drops out.  Given his history the last time, I suspect he will refuse to drop out even when the writing is on the wall.  If Bernie stays true to form, Biden is your nominee and your next president.

If Biden gets most of the delegates, is it allowable for someone, say Bernie, to hand over his or her delegates to another candidate, say Elizabeth Warren putting her over Biden.
No, it is not.

sherr

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #661 on: August 16, 2019, 11:16:33 AM »
Here is what I think has happened and what I think is going to happen.  I don't think Biden really wanted to run.  But without Biden, Bernie would have been the front runner and potentially the nominee.  I suspect Biden feared that Bernie could lose the general, so that is why he ran.  Biden became the instant front runner.


Now it looks like we have four leading candidates.  I like Harris a lot, but she seems to be fading in the polls.  I also like Warren a lot.  She is on her way up while Bernie is on his way down.  She might overtake Biden, but that would only happen if Bernie drops out.  Given his history the last time, I suspect he will refuse to drop out even when the writing is on the wall.  If Bernie stays true to form, Biden is your nominee and your next president.

If Biden gets most of the delegates, is it allowable for someone, say Bernie, to hand over his or her delegates to another candidate, say Elizabeth Warren putting her over Biden.
No, it is not.

I think you're wrong. As OurTown just quoted, they vote for whom they're required to on the first vote. But if no one has more than 50% then they're free to in "good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them". So if Bernie doesn't have a chance and they think that Warren is the next-best thing, then they can vote for Warren. Especially if Bernie drops out and endorses Warren.

OurTown

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #662 on: August 16, 2019, 11:34:40 AM »
Which is exactly what I think Bernie will not do.  Actually, I would be okay with Biden with the caveat that he is a little on the old side.


Gin1984

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #663 on: August 16, 2019, 11:59:29 AM »
Here is what I think has happened and what I think is going to happen.  I don't think Biden really wanted to run.  But without Biden, Bernie would have been the front runner and potentially the nominee.  I suspect Biden feared that Bernie could lose the general, so that is why he ran.  Biden became the instant front runner.


Now it looks like we have four leading candidates.  I like Harris a lot, but she seems to be fading in the polls.  I also like Warren a lot.  She is on her way up while Bernie is on his way down.  She might overtake Biden, but that would only happen if Bernie drops out.  Given his history the last time, I suspect he will refuse to drop out even when the writing is on the wall.  If Bernie stays true to form, Biden is your nominee and your next president.

If Biden gets most of the delegates, is it allowable for someone, say Bernie, to hand over his or her delegates to another candidate, say Elizabeth Warren putting her over Biden.
No, it is not.

I think you're wrong. As OurTown just quoted, they vote for whom they're required to on the first vote. But if no one has more than 50% then they're free to in "good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them". So if Bernie doesn't have a chance and they think that Warren is the next-best thing, then they can vote for Warren. Especially if Bernie drops out and endorses Warren.
What you wrote and what was asked are different.  Bernie cannot "hand-over" his delegates.  That is not the same as voting their conscience in the second round.

Nick_Miller

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #664 on: August 19, 2019, 08:18:23 AM »
To Dems and Dem-leaning indies, of all of the remaining Dem candidates, are there any whom you would NOT vote for in a general election against Trump?

It's baffling to me that a person who even nominally embraces Democratic principals would either: 1) vote for Trump (or a third party candidate) over ANY of the Dem noms in a general OR 2) stay home and simply not vote in the general if a certain Dem gets the nom. Basically to me, even the worst Dem (maybe Williamson or Delaney?) is 10 times better than another 4 years of Trump.

I'm definitely Vote Blue No Matter Who, but it doesn't seem that others are there yet. Do we chalk it up to the naked tribalism inherent to a primary contest or is it something else?



ketchup

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #665 on: August 19, 2019, 10:19:15 AM »
I'd vote for an inanimate carbon rod over Trump.

OurTown

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #666 on: August 19, 2019, 11:55:19 AM »
I would vote for either of my ex wives over Trump.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #667 on: August 19, 2019, 12:29:27 PM »
I would vote for either of my ex wives over Trump.

I’d vote for my husband’s ex-wife over Trump.

madgeylou

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #668 on: August 19, 2019, 01:29:59 PM »
Everyone I know wants Elizabeth Warren, but is prepared to vote for whoever wins the D nomination. Same as me.

Wrenchturner

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #669 on: August 19, 2019, 01:53:37 PM »
As an outsider it appears to me that each Democratic candidate has their own slice of appeal, but none of them have the whole package.  Is that a fair sentiment?  Do the dems have a chance at all of winning because of this?  Seems like the party is fragmented and lacking a central goal.

My gut tells me Trump has this in the bag because of that, but what do I know... Plus a lot can change in a year.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #670 on: August 19, 2019, 02:23:42 PM »
Seems like the party is fragmented and lacking a central goal.My gut tells me Trump has this in the bag because of that, but what do I know... Plus a lot can change in a year.
The exact same thing could have been said about the Republican party in 2016, and we know how that turned out.

If anything, I'd say the current economy would be the #1 reason Trump has it in the bag  (assuming Trump is lucky enough for the recession to hold off until after November 2020). In general, incumbent presidents have an advantage in elections, and incumbent presidents have a huge advantage when the economy doesn't suck.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #671 on: August 19, 2019, 03:24:52 PM »
That would make a great bumper sticker - "TRUMP - The economy doesn't suck."

The stock market has really gone up since Trump took office.  When will "trickle down" occur?  I could see "trickle down" may mean that you have a job now and before you didn't, but is Trump to be thanked?

Seems like if the Democrats had a few ads with kids in cages, it would not go well for Mr. Trump.

Wrenchturner

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #672 on: August 19, 2019, 03:37:15 PM »
Seems like the party is fragmented and lacking a central goal.My gut tells me Trump has this in the bag because of that, but what do I know... Plus a lot can change in a year.
The exact same thing could have been said about the Republican party in 2016, and we know how that turned out.

If anything, I'd say the current economy would be the #1 reason Trump has it in the bag  (assuming Trump is lucky enough for the recession to hold off until after November 2020). In general, incumbent presidents have an advantage in elections, and incumbent presidents have a huge advantage when the economy doesn't suck.
The difference re 2016 in my opinion was more about Hillary being a terrible candidate and Trump not bowing to political correctness and the tribalism of "inclusion".

I'm not sure Trump is as damaged now as Hillary was in 2016, but even if he was, the Dems don't have a clear mandate other than some variety of #resist.  Even if the dems ran on "Trump cages" it really just poisons the well rather than making the dems look good.  Declaring your opponents racist/sexist/Russian is not a platform.

I think the moderates will go for the incumbent.  Not to mention, if the race is old rich white man vs old rich white man vs old rich white man, that situation will go Red imo.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #673 on: August 19, 2019, 03:44:13 PM »
I could see "trickle down" may mean that you have a job now and before you didn't, but is Trump to be thanked?
In ancient China, the emperor got the credit and blame for good harvests, tsunamis and earth quakes. Not much has changed, and these days the president gets the credit and blame for the economy even though their impact is quite minimal.

In the last 80 years, no sitting US president has lost their bid for reelection when the unemployment rate was below 7%. Currently we're at about 4% unemployment.

FIPurpose

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #674 on: August 19, 2019, 04:22:44 PM »
I could see "trickle down" may mean that you have a job now and before you didn't, but is Trump to be thanked?
In ancient China, the emperor got the credit and blame for good harvests, tsunamis and earth quakes. Not much has changed, and these days the president gets the credit and blame for the economy even though their impact is quite minimal.

In the last 80 years, no sitting US president has lost their bid for reelection when the unemployment rate was below 7%. Currently we're at about 4% unemployment.

I'm not saying it's not relevant to a presidential election, but the unemployment rate and re-election seem a bit unrelated. Both Reagan and Obama were re-elected with unemployment above 7. So it's not a good indicator of electoral approval.


v8rx7guy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #675 on: August 19, 2019, 04:46:59 PM »
Seems like if the Democrats had a few ads with kids in cages, it would not go well for Mr. Trump.

Which pictures would those be... the ones from when Obama was president, or ones from when Trump was president?

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #676 on: August 19, 2019, 04:54:31 PM »
That would make a great bumper sticker - "TRUMP - The economy doesn't suck."

The stock market has really gone up since Trump took office.  When will "trickle down" occur?  I could see "trickle down" may mean that you have a job now and before you didn't, but is Trump to be thanked?

Seems like if the Democrats had a few ads with kids in cages, it would not go well for Mr. Trump.

Dems played their kids in cages hand too early.

The stock market was also up huge under Obama and everyone who does not have investments, 401ks, etc, was left behind.  Obama was good for the investor class, Trump is good for the investor class.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #677 on: August 19, 2019, 04:56:34 PM »
I would vote for either of my ex wives over Trump.

I’d vote for my husband’s ex-wife over Trump.

That's not going to mean squat in the electoral college.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #678 on: August 19, 2019, 05:54:01 PM »
Curious question to those expressing a willingness to pick ex spouses and the like over Trump :), it seems at least partially tongue in cheek, but I wonder if you really mean what it seems to be implying. Would you really vote without question for literally anyone who wasnt Trump (or as extremely overtly corrupt and whatnot) even if they had totally different political leanings? Would you vote for Bush Jr? Would you vote for Reagan? Would you vote for a person with no corruption scandals who spoke out against imprisoning children and banning people from immigrating from certain countries even if they were 100% for outlawing abortions and completely against any further gun regulations. I ask because the cynical side of me sees many liberals I know using the "oh how could you not vote for the Democrat no matter how far their views misalign with yours? They're not Trump and you have a duty", and I tend to disbelieve their sincerity somewhat. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you follow through? Would you have any second thoughts about it? I'm not saying anyone here fits this description, but I'm curious what you think. Also for note, I'm not talking about voting for Trump (of that there is no question in my mind, I will not), I'm talking about specifically voting for the opposition candidate who has the only chance of beating him even with significant differences in viewpoint and having no concerns for it even when the candidates stray even further from viewpoints I believe just because.... Trump.....

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #679 on: August 19, 2019, 06:10:42 PM »
Curious question to those expressing a willingness to pick ex spouses and the like over Trump :), it seems at least partially tongue in cheek, but I wonder if you really mean what it seems to be implying. Would you really vote without question for literally anyone who wasnt Trump (or as extremely overtly corrupt and whatnot) even if they had totally different political leanings? Would you vote for Bush Jr? Would you vote for Reagan? Would you vote for a person with no corruption scandals who spoke out against imprisoning children and banning people from immigrating from certain countries even if they were 100% for outlawing abortions and completely against any further gun regulations. I ask because the cynical side of me sees many liberals I know using the "oh how could you not vote for the Democrat no matter how far their views misalign with yours? They're not Trump and you have a duty", and I tend to disbelieve their sincerity somewhat. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you follow through? Would you have any second thoughts about it? I'm not saying anyone here fits this description, but I'm curious what you think. Also for note, I'm not talking about voting for Trump (of that there is no question in my mind, I will not), I'm talking about specifically voting for the opposition candidate who has the only chance of beating him even with significant differences in viewpoint and having no concerns for it even when the candidates stray even further from viewpoints I believe just because.... Trump.....

I would vote for anyone who had an ounce of moral integrity over Trump.

I have no particular fondness for my husband’s ex-wife. But she at least has some semblance of a moral compass. Not a great one. But way, way better than Trump.

Gin1984

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #680 on: August 20, 2019, 07:35:58 AM »
I really dislike Bernie, I really do. I don't think he is competent as a Senator much less a president.  He is one of the few front runners who I really don't want to win.  That said, I'd vote for him against Trump because I think Trump has no morals.  I am extremely pro-choice and yes, I'd even vote for someone who was anti-choice (similarly to voting for Clinton even though her VP was not fully pro-choice).  I can't watch what is happening without doing something.

partgypsy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #681 on: August 20, 2019, 07:54:17 AM »
Everyone I know wants Elizabeth Warren, but is prepared to vote for whoever wins the D nomination. Same as me.

I would be super excited if Elizabeth Warren got the nod, but I know whoever is selected other people are going to unhappy and that person is going to have a ton of mud slung at them.

That said, I'm planning on voting whoever the democratic nominee is. None of the front runners have the obvious disqualifiers that Trump (and his white house staff have) lack of morality, using the office for personal gain, possibly being compromised by a hostile foreign power.  Plus all have more political experience.  If our political process were working correctly he would have already been removed and this wouldn't even be an issue. So, us voters will have to do what congress is unable/unwilling to do.

Personally the entire Republican party is tainted by their terrible cowtowing to Trump versus standing up for what is right (other than a few like Jeff Flake, Jason Villalba). There was a poll that showed 10% of Republicans would favor a congressional candidate who was for impeaching Trump, which is not something you would ever get from watching Fox news.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/poll-47-percent-of-voters-wont-back-candidate-who-supports-impeaching-trump
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:09:55 AM by partgypsy »

sherr

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #682 on: August 20, 2019, 09:10:16 AM »
Seems like if the Democrats had a few ads with kids in cages, it would not go well for Mr. Trump.

Which pictures would those be... the ones from when Obama was president, or ones from when Trump was president?

Come on. Everyone knows that Obama's child-separations were only in cases where there was suspected child-trafficking. And that Trump intentionally expanded the practice to include everyone. It's almost like his officials went on TV and explicitly stated that the policy was intentional to serve as a deterrent or something.

Dems played their kids in cages hand too early.

Being horrified at the child-separation policy and the situation in the detention centers is not a "hand", it is a basic moral position. It must be resolved as quickly as possible, not "saved up" until it is most convenient politically.

It's attitudes like this that are so common among Republicans that are the reason I doubt I will ever again vote Republican in my lifetime. At least not while the boomers are still defining Republicanness.

Being intentionally cruel to children in order to punish their parents is morally abhorrent, and the fact that so many conservatives don't care and/or support it and/or "joke" about it tells you a lot about those people.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #683 on: August 20, 2019, 10:13:18 AM »
Curious question to those expressing a willingness to pick ex spouses and the like over Trump :), it seems at least partially tongue in cheek, but I wonder if you really mean what it seems to be implying. Would you really vote without question for literally anyone who wasnt Trump (or as extremely overtly corrupt and whatnot) even if they had totally different political leanings? Would you vote for Bush Jr? Would you vote for Reagan? Would you vote for a person with no corruption scandals who spoke out against imprisoning children and banning people from immigrating from certain countries even if they were 100% for outlawing abortions and completely against any further gun regulations. I ask because the cynical side of me sees many liberals I know using the "oh how could you not vote for the Democrat no matter how far their views misalign with yours? They're not Trump and you have a duty", and I tend to disbelieve their sincerity somewhat. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you follow through? Would you have any second thoughts about it? I'm not saying anyone here fits this description, but I'm curious what you think. Also for note, I'm not talking about voting for Trump (of that there is no question in my mind, I will not), I'm talking about specifically voting for the opposition candidate who has the only chance of beating him even with significant differences in viewpoint and having no concerns for it even when the candidates stray even further from viewpoints I believe just because.... Trump.....

I would vote for anyone who had an ounce of moral integrity over Trump.

I have no particular fondness for my husband’s ex-wife. But she at least has some semblance of a moral compass. Not a great one. But way, way better than Trump.

I really dislike Bernie, I really do. I don't think he is competent as a Senator much less a president.  He is one of the few front runners who I really don't want to win.  That said, I'd vote for him against Trump because I think Trump has no morals.  I am extremely pro-choice and yes, I'd even vote for someone who was anti-choice (similarly to voting for Clinton even though her VP was not fully pro-choice).  I can't watch what is happening without doing something.

Fair enough. I've always had a hard time with the lesser of two evils perspective since I am in a real way supporting the person I vote for even if I'm really voting against someone else. I'm personally trying to balance that out with the fact that no candidate would ever be 100% in line with my views and yet I still vote. I'll eventually balance those out once I find out the actual candidate picked to determine to vote Dem or 3rd party. Thanks for the input.

Samuel

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #684 on: August 20, 2019, 10:58:22 AM »
I would vote for either of my ex wives over Trump.

I’d vote for my husband’s ex-wife over Trump.

That's not going to mean squat in the electoral college.

Yep. I'll vote for whoever the Democrats run but it won't matter in the slightest because I live in a solidly blue state.

Trump is President because of 77,000 voters in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. It does no good for Democrats to run up vote totals in blue states if they become less competitive in the 10-11 states that will actually decide the election. I worry a bit about the Democratic nomination process losing touch with electoral realities as the ideological lanes thin out and the fight gets uglier. It's not at all obvious to me that the person who can survive this primary will be the one best positioned to compete in the battleground states, but who the hell knows at this point...

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #685 on: August 20, 2019, 11:09:31 AM »
Seems like if the Democrats had a few ads with kids in cages, it would not go well for Mr. Trump.

Which pictures would those be... the ones from when Obama was president, or ones from when Trump was president?

Come on. Everyone knows that Obama's child-separations were only in cases where there was suspected child-trafficking. And that Trump intentionally expanded the practice to include everyone. It's almost like his officials went on TV and explicitly stated that the policy was intentional to serve as a deterrent or something.

Dems played their kids in cages hand too early.

Being horrified at the child-separation policy and the situation in the detention centers is not a "hand", it is a basic moral position. It must be resolved as quickly as possible, not "saved up" until it is most convenient politically.

It's attitudes like this that are so common among Republicans that are the reason I doubt I will ever again vote Republican in my lifetime. At least not while the boomers are still defining Republicanness.

Being intentionally cruel to children in order to punish their parents is morally abhorrent, and the fact that so many conservatives don't care and/or support it and/or "joke" about it tells you a lot about those people.

Agreed. This kind of blatant, amoral cynicism really horrifies me.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #686 on: August 20, 2019, 11:12:06 AM »
Curious question to those expressing a willingness to pick ex spouses and the like over Trump :), it seems at least partially tongue in cheek, but I wonder if you really mean what it seems to be implying. Would you really vote without question for literally anyone who wasnt Trump (or as extremely overtly corrupt and whatnot) even if they had totally different political leanings? Would you vote for Bush Jr? Would you vote for Reagan? Would you vote for a person with no corruption scandals who spoke out against imprisoning children and banning people from immigrating from certain countries even if they were 100% for outlawing abortions and completely against any further gun regulations. I ask because the cynical side of me sees many liberals I know using the "oh how could you not vote for the Democrat no matter how far their views misalign with yours? They're not Trump and you have a duty", and I tend to disbelieve their sincerity somewhat. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you follow through? Would you have any second thoughts about it? I'm not saying anyone here fits this description, but I'm curious what you think. Also for note, I'm not talking about voting for Trump (of that there is no question in my mind, I will not), I'm talking about specifically voting for the opposition candidate who has the only chance of beating him even with significant differences in viewpoint and having no concerns for it even when the candidates stray even further from viewpoints I believe just because.... Trump.....

I would vote for anyone who had an ounce of moral integrity over Trump.

I have no particular fondness for my husband’s ex-wife. But she at least has some semblance of a moral compass. Not a great one. But way, way better than Trump.

I really dislike Bernie, I really do. I don't think he is competent as a Senator much less a president.  He is one of the few front runners who I really don't want to win.  That said, I'd vote for him against Trump because I think Trump has no morals.  I am extremely pro-choice and yes, I'd even vote for someone who was anti-choice (similarly to voting for Clinton even though her VP was not fully pro-choice).  I can't watch what is happening without doing something.

Fair enough. I've always had a hard time with the lesser of two evils perspective since I am in a real way supporting the person I vote for even if I'm really voting against someone else. I'm personally trying to balance that out with the fact that no candidate would ever be 100% in line with my views and yet I still vote. I'll eventually balance those out once I find out the actual candidate picked to determine to vote Dem or 3rd party. Thanks for the input.

That is fine. But the fact is, someone is going to be president. Not voting for the lesser of two evils does not mean that a perfect candidate magically appears, or that the office of the presidency somehow doesn't get filled. It will be filled by someone. And so, given the choice between two people, I will choose the better one.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #687 on: August 20, 2019, 12:40:02 PM »
When people say they can't stomach voting for the lesser of two evils, and the green/lib/etc party needs more support, I always question if that person is doing anything outside of the presidential election to support those parties. For third parties to be viable, they need to come up at the local and state level and build a presence there. If the only thing you do is vote third party every 2 or 4 years at the national level, nothing's going to change.

There are two parties with a chance of becoming president. I will be volunteering or working for whoever gets the Dem nom. Any alternative is terrible or unrealistic.

MayDay

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #688 on: August 20, 2019, 05:01:44 PM »
I have a strong preference but will vote for any of the current dem candidates. I am sure there are dems out there that are worse than Trump, but IMO none of the ones running are even close to Trump.

I actually straight up detest Bernie but I'll still vote for him because he not even remotely close to the evil that Trump is.

Of course I live in MN so it doesn't really matter.

FIPurpose

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #689 on: August 20, 2019, 05:07:23 PM »
I have a strong preference but will vote for any of the current dem candidates. I am sure there are dems out there that are worse than Trump, but IMO none of the ones running are even close to Trump.

I actually straight up detest Bernie but I'll still vote for him because he not even remotely close to the evil that Trump is.

Of course I live in MN so it doesn't really matter.

MN absolutely matters. Hillary won MN by only 1.5%. That is absolutely within range of wither party winning it.

Gin1984

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #690 on: August 20, 2019, 05:08:07 PM »
Everyone I know wants Elizabeth Warren, but is prepared to vote for whoever wins the D nomination. Same as me.

I would be super excited if Elizabeth Warren got the nod, but I know whoever is selected other people are going to unhappy and that person is going to have a ton of mud slung at them.

That said, I'm planning on voting whoever the democratic nominee is. None of the front runners have the obvious disqualifiers that Trump (and his white house staff have) lack of morality, using the office for personal gain, possibly being compromised by a hostile foreign power.  Plus all have more political experience.  If our political process were working correctly he would have already been removed and this wouldn't even be an issue. So, us voters will have to do what congress is unable/unwilling to do.

Personally the entire Republican party is tainted by their terrible cowtowing to Trump versus standing up for what is right (other than a few like Jeff Flake, Jason Villalba). There was a poll that showed 10% of Republicans would favor a congressional candidate who was for impeaching Trump, which is not something you would ever get from watching Fox news.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/poll-47-percent-of-voters-wont-back-candidate-who-supports-impeaching-trump
This is true and is a major reason I could not vote for a republican (and I have in a general election).

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #691 on: August 20, 2019, 06:33:12 PM »
Some recent posts have said that they hate Bernie.  He seems to generate ire second only to Trump.

Bernie is a disheveled character that could have been generated by a fiction writer.  I used to think he was a bit like Don Quixote swinging at the windmills as his foes are too big and cannot be touched.  He also reminds me of being similar to  Captain Ahab as he will not give up on his causes.

I wonder if Bernie would generate as much malice if he were more akin to a latter day Jack Kennedy.  Bernie's speeches are basically never ending clones of one another.  Were he a silver tongued orator with more poetic phraseology, he may have win more converts.

I do think a Warren / Bernie ticket would all have us saying "Donald Who?" on election day.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #692 on: August 20, 2019, 06:37:08 PM »
Some recent posts have said that they hate Bernie.  He seems to generate ire second only to Trump.

Bernie is a disheveled character that could have been generated by a fiction writer.  I used to think he was a bit like Don Quixote swinging at the windmills as his foes are too big and cannot be touched.  He also reminds me of being similar to  Captain Ahab as he will not give up on his causes.

I wonder if Bernie would generate as much malice if he were more akin to a latter day Jack Kennedy.  Bernie's speeches are basically never ending clones of one another.  Were he a silver tongued orator with more poetic phraseology, he may have win more converts.

I do think a Warren / Bernie ticket would all have us saying "Donald Who?" on election day.
My dislike of him is not based on his speeches but based on him not being able to be a leader in Senate and yet wanting to be the leader of the country.  His arrogance is off-putting.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #693 on: August 20, 2019, 06:55:37 PM »
Bernie's speeches are basically never ending clones of one another.
I thought this to an extent, but after listening to him for an hour on Joe Rogan, he came off as far more nuanced than I had assumed.  "Soundbyte" reporting in the media definitely skews that.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #694 on: August 20, 2019, 08:35:13 PM »

Fair enough. I've always had a hard time with the lesser of two evils perspective since I am in a real way supporting the person I vote for even if I'm really voting against someone else. I'm personally trying to balance that out with the fact that no candidate would ever be 100% in line with my views and yet I still vote. I'll eventually balance those out once I find out the actual candidate picked to determine to vote Dem or 3rd party. Thanks for the input.

That is fine. But the fact is, someone is going to be president. Not voting for the lesser of two evils does not mean that a perfect candidate magically appears, or that the office of the presidency somehow doesn't get filled. It will be filled by someone. And so, given the choice between two people, I will choose the better one.

It doesn't make a better candidate magically appear, but I still feel accountable for voting for who I vote for in terms of me actually supporting them. While it's true that it could easily be said that I'm being idealistic or pie in the sky or whatever the correct term is for not accepting the fact that one of the two will certainly be elected, I could also say that the chances of my individual vote making any difference whatsoever is less likely than me winning the lottery (by this I mean that the chances of my single vote swinging my state to one side or the other). It's all a little idealistic no matter how you look at it. I'm just trying to decide where I will draw my line.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #695 on: August 20, 2019, 08:40:36 PM »
When people say they can't stomach voting for the lesser of two evils, and the green/lib/etc party needs more support, I always question if that person is doing anything outside of the presidential election to support those parties. For third parties to be viable, they need to come up at the local and state level and build a presence there. If the only thing you do is vote third party every 2 or 4 years at the national level, nothing's going to change.

There are two parties with a chance of becoming president. I will be volunteering or working for whoever gets the Dem nom. Any alternative is terrible or unrealistic.

I respect the work and dedication that you've put into the election process, and I don't fit precisely in your description (I said I had trouble stomaching lesser of two evils not specifically that another party needs more support). That being said, I find it a bit unfair to criticize (at least it seems like criticism) people who have a legitimate beef with voting for the lesser of two evils just because they don't devote their time to politics at the local level. We all have a limited amount of time to devote to anything on this earth, and just because I admittedly don't choose to devote it to local politics, political organizing, etc. and choose to try to help out in other areas I'm passionate about doesn't de-legitimize the perspective and internal strife on voting for the lesser of two evils. I have problems with tons of things but don't have the time or passion to work towards resolving them all.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #696 on: August 21, 2019, 12:24:30 AM »
When people say they can't stomach voting for the lesser of two evils, and the green/lib/etc party needs more support, I always question if that person is doing anything outside of the presidential election to support those parties. For third parties to be viable, they need to come up at the local and state level and build a presence there. If the only thing you do is vote third party every 2 or 4 years at the national level, nothing's going to change.

There are two parties with a chance of becoming president. I will be volunteering or working for whoever gets the Dem nom. Any alternative is terrible or unrealistic.

I respect the work and dedication that you've put into the election process, and I don't fit precisely in your description (I said I had trouble stomaching lesser of two evils not specifically that another party needs more support). That being said, I find it a bit unfair to criticize (at least it seems like criticism) people who have a legitimate beef with voting for the lesser of two evils just because they don't devote their time to politics at the local level. We all have a limited amount of time to devote to anything on this earth, and just because I admittedly don't choose to devote it to local politics, political organizing, etc. and choose to try to help out in other areas I'm passionate about doesn't de-legitimize the perspective and internal strife on voting for the lesser of two evils. I have problems with tons of things but don't have the time or passion to work towards resolving them all.
I think the problem is less about voting for the lesser of two evils but about essentially absenting yourself from responsibility by either not voting or by voting for a hopeless (in practice) third party candidate in a way that allows the worse of two evils to win.
ly
How anyone could ever conceive of Trump as the lesser of two evils entirely escapes me, but apparently millions of Americans can.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #697 on: August 21, 2019, 10:30:40 AM »
When people say they can't stomach voting for the lesser of two evils, and the green/lib/etc party needs more support, I always question if that person is doing anything outside of the presidential election to support those parties. For third parties to be viable, they need to come up at the local and state level and build a presence there. If the only thing you do is vote third party every 2 or 4 years at the national level, nothing's going to change.

There are two parties with a chance of becoming president. I will be volunteering or working for whoever gets the Dem nom. Any alternative is terrible or unrealistic.

I respect the work and dedication that you've put into the election process, and I don't fit precisely in your description (I said I had trouble stomaching lesser of two evils not specifically that another party needs more support). That being said, I find it a bit unfair to criticize (at least it seems like criticism) people who have a legitimate beef with voting for the lesser of two evils just because they don't devote their time to politics at the local level. We all have a limited amount of time to devote to anything on this earth, and just because I admittedly don't choose to devote it to local politics, political organizing, etc. and choose to try to help out in other areas I'm passionate about doesn't de-legitimize the perspective and internal strife on voting for the lesser of two evils. I have problems with tons of things but don't have the time or passion to work towards resolving them all.
I think the problem is less about voting for the lesser of two evils but about essentially absenting yourself from responsibility by either not voting or by voting for a hopeless (in practice) third party candidate in a way that allows the worse of two evils to win.
ly
How anyone could ever conceive of Trump as the lesser of two evils entirely escapes me, but apparently millions of Americans can.

Once we get to that level and talking of responsibility, it moves on to the realm of morality - is it moral to support someone because they're not someone else who's really really bad if the person you would be supporting, supports things you firmly believe are immoral? A conversation about this would totally derail the thread, so I won't go farther. Suffice it to say, it's not as simple, as I see things, as a clear cut responsibility to actively choose the lesser of two evils.

madgeylou

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #698 on: August 21, 2019, 07:17:33 PM »
When people say they can't stomach voting for the lesser of two evils, and the green/lib/etc party needs more support, I always question if that person is doing anything outside of the presidential election to support those parties. For third parties to be viable, they need to come up at the local and state level and build a presence there. If the only thing you do is vote third party every 2 or 4 years at the national level, nothing's going to change.

There are two parties with a chance of becoming president. I will be volunteering or working for whoever gets the Dem nom. Any alternative is terrible or unrealistic.

I respect the work and dedication that you've put into the election process, and I don't fit precisely in your description (I said I had trouble stomaching lesser of two evils not specifically that another party needs more support). That being said, I find it a bit unfair to criticize (at least it seems like criticism) people who have a legitimate beef with voting for the lesser of two evils just because they don't devote their time to politics at the local level. We all have a limited amount of time to devote to anything on this earth, and just because I admittedly don't choose to devote it to local politics, political organizing, etc. and choose to try to help out in other areas I'm passionate about doesn't de-legitimize the perspective and internal strife on voting for the lesser of two evils. I have problems with tons of things but don't have the time or passion to work towards resolving them all.
I think the problem is less about voting for the lesser of two evils but about essentially absenting yourself from responsibility by either not voting or by voting for a hopeless (in practice) third party candidate in a way that allows the worse of two evils to win.
ly
How anyone could ever conceive of Trump as the lesser of two evils entirely escapes me, but apparently millions of Americans can.

Once we get to that level and talking of responsibility, it moves on to the realm of morality - is it moral to support someone because they're not someone else who's really really bad if the person you would be supporting, supports things you firmly believe are immoral? A conversation about this would totally derail the thread, so I won't go farther. Suffice it to say, it's not as simple, as I see things, as a clear cut responsibility to actively choose the lesser of two evils.

To me, it’s about harm reduction for vulnerable communities above all. For a lot of people, there is a HUGE gap between most evil and second most evil in terms of how they are treated.

Laserjet3051

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #699 on: August 21, 2019, 08:39:31 PM »
When people say they can't stomach voting for the lesser of two evils, and the green/lib/etc party needs more support, I always question if that person is doing anything outside of the presidential election to support those parties. For third parties to be viable, they need to come up at the local and state level and build a presence there. If the only thing you do is vote third party every 2 or 4 years at the national level, nothing's going to change.

There are two parties with a chance of becoming president. I will be volunteering or working for whoever gets the Dem nom. Any alternative is terrible or unrealistic.

I respect the work and dedication that you've put into the election process, and I don't fit precisely in your description (I said I had trouble stomaching lesser of two evils not specifically that another party needs more support). That being said, I find it a bit unfair to criticize (at least it seems like criticism) people who have a legitimate beef with voting for the lesser of two evils just because they don't devote their time to politics at the local level. We all have a limited amount of time to devote to anything on this earth, and just because I admittedly don't choose to devote it to local politics, political organizing, etc. and choose to try to help out in other areas I'm passionate about doesn't de-legitimize the perspective and internal strife on voting for the lesser of two evils. I have problems with tons of things but don't have the time or passion to work towards resolving them all.
I think the problem is less about voting for the lesser of two evils but about essentially absenting yourself from responsibility by either not voting or by voting for a hopeless (in practice) third party candidate in a way that allows the worse of two evils to win.
ly
How anyone could ever conceive of Trump as the lesser of two evils entirely escapes me, but apparently millions of Americans can.

That would be about 63 million Americans.