Author Topic: 2020 POTUS Candidates  (Read 292311 times)

sixwings

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3050 on: April 26, 2020, 08:12:23 AM »
I wonder when it's too late for someone to mount a third-party run.  Mark Cuban has lately toyed with the idea.  Not saying he (or any third-party candidate) would win, but I do subscribe to the notion that third-party candidates can siphon votes from major party candidates (as mentioned above).

Cuban's still toying with the idea.  Do people think he would siphon off more Trump votes or Biden votes?  He seems relatively centrist to me.  I guess he could possibly hand Texas to Biden, which would probably be enough to elect Biden at the end of the day.  Florida might also be interesting to watch in that scenario, as I think they've been a swingy state with a lot of electoral votes.

I thtink this is worst case scenario for Biden, his base is the center.

GuitarStv

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3051 on: April 26, 2020, 09:21:03 AM »
Biden performed very well in the VP debate with Paul Ryan eight years ago. Debating Trump is not like debating Ryan.

I actually thought Sec. Clinton performed as well as she could have during the debates with Trump. Several yellow Dog Republicans around the office even confessed to me that--had they not known she was Hillary Clinton--they thought, "Wow, this person is really performing well!"

But what Trump has now--that he didn't before--is a record of service in public office. And that record is what Biden used against Ryan so effectively in 2012.

I thtink he record is pretty key. in 2016 there wasn't much record of Trump and he wasn'tt releasing any personal info so he could just say shit like I'm a billionaire businessman, i hire the best people, Obama sucks, ACA is a disaster i'll make something waaaay better etc. Now he can't do that because it's clear he screwed all that up.

There was plenty of evidence of Trumps racism, misogyny, and incompetence at running a business before the last election.  His supporters seem to largely either ignore reality or see these traits as a positive.  Either way, they're not going to care about his record.

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3052 on: April 26, 2020, 11:39:57 AM »
Biden performed very well in the VP debate with Paul Ryan eight years ago. Debating Trump is not like debating Ryan.

I actually thought Sec. Clinton performed as well as she could have during the debates with Trump. Several yellow Dog Republicans around the office even confessed to me that--had they not known she was Hillary Clinton--they thought, "Wow, this person is really performing well!"

But what Trump has now--that he didn't before--is a record of service in public office. And that record is what Biden used against Ryan so effectively in 2012.

I thtink he record is pretty key. in 2016 there wasn't much record of Trump and he wasn'tt releasing any personal info so he could just say shit like I'm a billionaire businessman, i hire the best people, Obama sucks, ACA is a disaster i'll make something waaaay better etc. Now he can't do that because it's clear he screwed all that up.

There was plenty of evidence of Trumps racism, misogyny, and incompetence at running a business before the last election.  His supporters seem to largely either ignore reality or see these traits as a positive.  Either way, they're not going to care about his record.

There was a pervasive belief (some might say delusion) that Trump would “pivot” once elected and follow most of the normal conventions.  He even said as much several times (paraphrasing): “I’ll be so presidential it will be boring” 

For the first 18 months everytime Trump briefly handled some executive business the way a ‘normal’ republican president would there would be discussion about whether this was “a pivot.”  Nope.

I don’t think anyone this time is disillusioned into thinking that Trump will stop doing any saying his racist, misogynist and incompetent things.  Everyone now knows Trump is Trump, and won’t be changed.  His core supporters love it.  Many who voted for him are sick of it (Note how his approval dropped 10 points since election, and has never recovered). 

bacchi

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3053 on: April 26, 2020, 12:57:37 PM »
I wonder when it's too late for someone to mount a third-party run.  Mark Cuban has lately toyed with the idea.  Not saying he (or any third-party candidate) would win, but I do subscribe to the notion that third-party candidates can siphon votes from major party candidates (as mentioned above).

Cuban's still toying with the idea.  Do people think he would siphon off more Trump votes or Biden votes?  He seems relatively centrist to me.  I guess he could possibly hand Texas to Biden, which would probably be enough to elect Biden at the end of the day.  Florida might also be interesting to watch in that scenario, as I think they've been a swingy state with a lot of electoral votes.

I thtink this is worst case scenario for Biden, his base is the center.

It's hard to say without knowing more of Cuban's policies. The pro-business side is generally aligned with Republicans but Biden is definitely a pro-business Democrat. If Cuban agrees with D environmental policies and women's rights and minority rights, it'd be very bad for Biden. If Cuban is all about big business doing what big business does, and that's a-ok, it won't matter much for Biden.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3054 on: April 26, 2020, 05:55:42 PM »
You guys neglected to say that the man is basically dishonest.  He used to hire small contractors and not pay them.  These guys could do little against Trump's lawyers.  His university was also a sham.  I am sure there are many other examples.

A president with what used to be called "character" would go a long way.  Maybe voters got it wrong and thought it was meant to elect a "character."

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3055 on: April 26, 2020, 06:14:36 PM »
You guys neglected to say that the man is basically dishonest.

Who exactly are you suggesting in this thread has NOT pointed out that Trump is perpetually dishonest, or worse?

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3056 on: April 26, 2020, 08:01:41 PM »
Not anyone specifically.  It just seems that the issue that the man is a crook and was a crook prior to being elected is somehow washed away.  I guess his former dishonesty is somehow forgotten with his new misadventures.

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3057 on: April 26, 2020, 08:50:54 PM »
Not anyone specifically.  It just seems that the issue that the man is a crook and was a crook prior to being elected is somehow washed away.  I guess his former dishonesty is somehow forgotten with his new misadventures.

Unfortunately voters didn't care back in 2016 (HRC hot that angle pretty hard), so I guess no one bothers spending time bringing it up again.

boy_bye

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3058 on: April 27, 2020, 11:11:24 AM »
I want Joe to pick Elizabeth Warren as his running mate. I know it's less than ideal because Massachusetts has a republican governor but it's super ideal in that she's the most competent well-known Democrat in office by leaps and bounds, and had a comprehensive coronavirus plan back in January. In my opinion, she'd be the absolute best president, and it's not even close. 

BUT I'm a college educated middle aged lady so I'm gonna be voting Democratic anyway.

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3059 on: April 27, 2020, 12:12:17 PM »
I love Warren and was also worried about her being selected VP because of Gov. Baker.  I learned that MA law requires a special election within 3 months (though I have not independently verified that) so the concern is less. But you never know with MA voters. In a special election, they might still elect a moderate Republican right when we (hopefully, but nowhere near confident) get a 50/50 or a 1 Dem majority and screw everything up, so I'm still nervous about it.

jim555

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3060 on: April 27, 2020, 12:38:23 PM »

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3061 on: April 27, 2020, 12:45:10 PM »
NY cancels Primary - Sorry Bernie, no miracle comeback possible...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-state-cancels-june-23-presidential-primary-coronavirus-2020-04-27/
... I thought Sanders had already suspended his campaign...?


jim555

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3062 on: April 27, 2020, 12:54:40 PM »
NY cancels Primary - Sorry Bernie, no miracle comeback possible...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-state-cancels-june-23-presidential-primary-coronavirus-2020-04-27/
... I thought Sanders had already suspended his campaign...?
That still hasn't sunk into the true believers.

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3063 on: April 27, 2020, 01:52:55 PM »
NY cancels Primary - Sorry Bernie, no miracle comeback possible...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-state-cancels-june-23-presidential-primary-coronavirus-2020-04-27/
... I thought Sanders had already suspended his campaign...?
That still hasn't sunk into the true believers.

Perhaps, but true believers are seldom enough to win a campaign alone.  Hard to see how when the majority of Dems thinks he’s quit.

maizefolk

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3064 on: April 27, 2020, 05:03:10 PM »
the Third Party vote is another aspect that's often ignored when considering Trump's re-electability.  Stein & Johnson combined for almost 6MM votes (roughly 4.6% of the total cast). 
More importantly they collectively got 4.7% in MI (Trump won by 0.3%), 4.7% in WI (Trump won by 1.0%), 3.6% in PA (Trump by 1.2%), and 3% in FL (Trump by 1.2%).

It's too soon to know what role 3rd party candidates will have on this election, but if it is less that can substantially alter the race in states that Trump absolutely needs to win.

This new Suffolk poll would certainly suggest third party candidates in general help Trump more than Biden. If people had the option of voting 3rd party, Biden lead by 6% (44 to 38), but if they were asked to chose between Trump and Biden, Biden's lead increased to 10% (50 to 40).

So in this particular sample the third party vote was a 3:1 ratio of otherwise Biden supporters to otherwise Trump supporters.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/04/27/biden-leads-trump-2020-amid-coronavirus-concerns/3029325001/

maizefolk

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3065 on: April 27, 2020, 05:27:23 PM »
Jesse Ventura says he's "exploring" running on the Green Party ticket. If so, presumably he'd have the potential to attract more support than Jill Stein did as both a former governor and somebody most older people already know the name of.

Although maybe Green party supporters would be less likely to think Biden and Trump are equivalent evils after four years of Trump. I don't know that I know anyone who voted Green in 2016. Is anyone who is reading this thread a green party voter who could comment on their thinking for 2020?

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3066 on: April 27, 2020, 05:32:18 PM »
Jesse Ventura says he's "exploring" running on the Green Party ticket. If so, presumably he'd have the potential to attract more support than Jill Stein did as both a former governor and somebody most older people already know the name of.

Although maybe Green party supporters would be less likely to think Biden and Trump are equivalent evils after four years of Trump. I don't know that I know anyone who voted Green in 2016. Is anyone who is reading this thread a green party voter who could comment on their thinking for 2020?

Sometimes when I think the world can’t get weirder...
Venture and Trump both were associated with the WWE... though Ventura more than Trump.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3067 on: April 28, 2020, 12:36:09 PM »
But you never know with MA voters. In a special election, they might still elect a moderate Republican right when we (hopefully, but nowhere near confident) get a 50/50 or a 1 Dem majority and screw everything up, so I'm still nervous about it.

Yeah, I'd be excited about Warren as VP, but in many ways getting a non-Republican Senate is as if not more important than a non-Republican president, and it's just so incredibly asinine that our electoral system can churn out such disparate results just based on unusual timing (Presidential versus non-Presidential, off-year governors, special elections, etc.). I mean sometimes it works in favor of goodness and decency (a la Doug Jones in Ala), but we don't need another Scott Brown in the Senate.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3068 on: April 28, 2020, 04:46:18 PM »
Jesse Ventura says he's "exploring" running on the Green Party ticket. If so, presumably he'd have the potential to attract more support than Jill Stein did as both a former governor and somebody most older people already know the name of.

Although maybe Green party supporters would be less likely to think Biden and Trump are equivalent evils after four years of Trump. I don't know that I know anyone who voted Green in 2016. Is anyone who is reading this thread a green party voter who could comment on their thinking for 2020?

Not a green party person, but Jesse could be a tempting candidate.  Less BS from that guy.  The system does not own him.  Which candidate, if any, would he draw votes away from?

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3069 on: April 28, 2020, 04:53:15 PM »
Jesse Ventura says he's "exploring" running on the Green Party ticket. If so, presumably he'd have the potential to attract more support than Jill Stein did as both a former governor and somebody most older people already know the name of.

Although maybe Green party supporters would be less likely to think Biden and Trump are equivalent evils after four years of Trump. I don't know that I know anyone who voted Green in 2016. Is anyone who is reading this thread a green party voter who could comment on their thinking for 2020?

Not a green party person, but Jesse could be a tempting candidate.  Less BS from that guy.  The system does not own him.  Which candidate, if any, would he draw votes away from?

I mean, Jesse is a moron of the left, in a way.

As governor of MN, he wasn’t horrible. But he was a grandstanding egomaniac, and that got worse over time.

He’s a pro wrestling candidate, like Trump.

I think he would probably take more votes from the libertarian right than anything.

But after the shit show of the past 3 years, another dude who doesn’t know what he’s doing, and who is running mostly to fluff his ego,  is not something we should be hoping for.

bacchi

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3070 on: April 28, 2020, 07:28:10 PM »
Justin Amash may run as a Libertarian. That would definitely take more votes from Trump.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3071 on: April 28, 2020, 07:34:59 PM »
Mr. Ventura does not lack confidence.

]https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/494875-jesse-ventura-says-hes-testing-the-waters-for-green-party-bid-for-president[url][/url]

I'd sort of like to see him debate Trump.  The thin veil of politeness would be ripped to shreds.

How would Trump's supporters react to a debater who calls him a lyin' SOB and then backs it up with fact after fact in a very direct way?

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3072 on: April 29, 2020, 05:10:05 AM »
I’m so tired of presidential debates.  They’ve more theatre than substance, and rarely if ever reveal anything new.  I’d like to do away with them entirely.  Not sure what I would replace it with, but it would be more imformative to have candidates questioned by a panel, interview style, about their specific record and policies.  Let both sides bring facts and figures to make their case.


maizefolk

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3073 on: May 01, 2020, 07:01:25 AM »
Amash was being interviewed on NPR about his presidential run this morning. Interviewer was pressing him pretty hard. Asked libertarians are supposed to be for smaller government, but the country is currently heavily dependent on the stimulus package. His response was that he had proposed and still thought the whole $2T should have gone into recurring monthly payments to adults and children until the crisis ends (essentially a temporary Universal Basic Income).

I think the combination of being The-Only-Republican-Who-Voted-to-Impeach-Trump™ and a "bailout people rather than corporations" platform might actually be surprisingly effective. Don't know if he has other far out positions -- the sort normally associated with the Libertarian party -- that would cause voters to laugh him off. Even if he doesn't probably not enough to win, but perhaps enough to achieve a showing that is more on the scale of Ross Perot in 1992 than traditional third party bids and end in the low single digits.

If so I think that would actually be a really bad outcome. Right now Biden is doing really well in polling (in statistical ties with Trump in states like Georgia and Texas) and I think that's because he's benefiting from a lot of people who just really don't like Trump. Give them another semi-plausible option and I think more of those current Biden voters in states like Texas/Georgia/Arizona will switch over to Amash than current Trump voters.

Our country really REALLY needs instant runoff voting.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3074 on: May 01, 2020, 07:21:05 AM »
Amash was being interviewed on NPR about his presidential run this morning. Interviewer was pressing him pretty hard. Asked libertarians are supposed to be for smaller government, but the country is currently heavily dependent on the stimulus package. His response was that he had proposed and still thought the whole $2T should have gone into recurring monthly payments to adults and children until the crisis ends (essentially a temporary Universal Basic Income).

I think the combination of being The-Only-Republican-Who-Voted-to-Impeach-Trump™ and a "bailout people rather than corporations" platform might actually be surprisingly effective. Don't know if he has other far out positions -- the sort normally associated with the Libertarian party -- that would cause voters to laugh him off. Even if he doesn't probably not enough to win, but perhaps enough to achieve a showing that is more on the scale of Ross Perot in 1992 than traditional third party bids and end in the low single digits.

If so I think that would actually be a really bad outcome. Right now Biden is doing really well in polling (in statistical ties with Trump in states like Georgia and Texas) and I think that's because he's benefiting from a lot of people who just really don't like Trump. Give them another semi-plausible option and I think more of those current Biden voters in states like Texas/Georgia/Arizona will switch over to Amash than current Trump voters.

Our country really REALLY needs instant runoff voting.

I feel this is an accurate assessment of what could happen to Biden. I've commented numerous times on this thread about my struggles with who to vote for. Total off the cuff, hearing just what you said about him, with recent Biden issues, my gut reaction is, he would be a really tempting person to vote for. I think I would fall into your category since I'm not voting for Trump and am deciding on whether or not to vote for Biden.

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3075 on: May 01, 2020, 07:28:38 AM »

Our country really REALLY needs instant runoff voting.

Ranked choice voting.  It's already in place over here... let Maine lead the way!

(seriously, it would be such an improvement over how we currently vote.)

jim555

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3076 on: May 01, 2020, 07:53:29 AM »
Amash was being interviewed on NPR about his presidential run this morning. Interviewer was pressing him pretty hard. Asked libertarians are supposed to be for smaller government, but the country is currently heavily dependent on the stimulus package. His response was that he had proposed and still thought the whole $2T should have gone into recurring monthly payments to adults and children until the crisis ends (essentially a temporary Universal Basic Income).

I think the combination of being The-Only-Republican-Who-Voted-to-Impeach-Trump™ and a "bailout people rather than corporations" platform might actually be surprisingly effective. Don't know if he has other far out positions -- the sort normally associated with the Libertarian party -- that would cause voters to laugh him off. Even if he doesn't probably not enough to win, but perhaps enough to achieve a showing that is more on the scale of Ross Perot in 1992 than traditional third party bids and end in the low single digits.

If so I think that would actually be a really bad outcome. Right now Biden is doing really well in polling (in statistical ties with Trump in states like Georgia and Texas) and I think that's because he's benefiting from a lot of people who just really don't like Trump. Give them another semi-plausible option and I think more of those current Biden voters in states like Texas/Georgia/Arizona will switch over to Amash than current Trump voters.

Our country really REALLY needs instant runoff voting.

I feel this is an accurate assessment of what could happen to Biden. I've commented numerous times on this thread about my struggles with who to vote for. Total off the cuff, hearing just what you said about him, with recent Biden issues, my gut reaction is, he would be a really tempting person to vote for. I think I would fall into your category since I'm not voting for Trump and am deciding on whether or not to vote for Biden.
You would rather have Trump over Biden?  How is this even close?  Trump gets in again and the Republic may not survive.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3077 on: May 01, 2020, 08:00:21 AM »
Amash was being interviewed on NPR about his presidential run this morning. Interviewer was pressing him pretty hard. Asked libertarians are supposed to be for smaller government, but the country is currently heavily dependent on the stimulus package. His response was that he had proposed and still thought the whole $2T should have gone into recurring monthly payments to adults and children until the crisis ends (essentially a temporary Universal Basic Income).

I think the combination of being The-Only-Republican-Who-Voted-to-Impeach-Trump™ and a "bailout people rather than corporations" platform might actually be surprisingly effective. Don't know if he has other far out positions -- the sort normally associated with the Libertarian party -- that would cause voters to laugh him off. Even if he doesn't probably not enough to win, but perhaps enough to achieve a showing that is more on the scale of Ross Perot in 1992 than traditional third party bids and end in the low single digits.

If so I think that would actually be a really bad outcome. Right now Biden is doing really well in polling (in statistical ties with Trump in states like Georgia and Texas) and I think that's because he's benefiting from a lot of people who just really don't like Trump. Give them another semi-plausible option and I think more of those current Biden voters in states like Texas/Georgia/Arizona will switch over to Amash than current Trump voters.

Our country really REALLY needs instant runoff voting.

I feel this is an accurate assessment of what could happen to Biden. I've commented numerous times on this thread about my struggles with who to vote for. Total off the cuff, hearing just what you said about him, with recent Biden issues, my gut reaction is, he would be a really tempting person to vote for. I think I would fall into your category since I'm not voting for Trump and am deciding on whether or not to vote for Biden.
You would rather have Trump over Biden?  How is this even close?  Trump gets in again and the Republic may not survive.

I didn't say I'd rather have Trump over Biden. As has been discussed previously, there are certain things I feel that would keep me from voting for someone else even if I don't like the person they're running against. I've just got to decided if Biden fits that bill to me. There are certain issues he supports that I vehemently oppose and feel are immoral. The more things that come up against him, the harder a decision it is for me. The more things I support for another candidate, the more difficult the decision becomes as well.

jim555

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3078 on: May 01, 2020, 08:06:40 AM »
I didn't say I'd rather have Trump over Biden. As has been discussed previously, there are certain things I feel that would keep me from voting for someone else even if I don't like the person they're running against. I've just got to decided if Biden fits that bill to me. There are certain issues he supports that I vehemently oppose and feel are immoral. The more things that come up against him, the harder a decision it is for me. The more things I support for another candidate, the more difficult the decision becomes as well.
Throwing your vote away with a 3rd party or not voting is a defacto vote for Trump and you know it.

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3079 on: May 01, 2020, 08:11:37 AM »
I didn't say I'd rather have Trump over Biden. As has been discussed previously, there are certain things I feel that would keep me from voting for someone else even if I don't like the person they're running against. I've just got to decided if Biden fits that bill to me. There are certain issues he supports that I vehemently oppose and feel are immoral. The more things that come up against him, the harder a decision it is for me. The more things I support for another candidate, the more difficult the decision becomes as well.
Throwing your vote away with a 3rd party or not voting is a defacto vote for Trump and you know it.

To be fair, the math doesn't work out that way.
Voting for a 3rd party which has no chance isn't a vote for Trump... rather it's akin to not voting at all (which >40% of the electorate doesn't do  anyway).  Trump doesn't gain a vote. 

maizefolk

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3080 on: May 01, 2020, 08:26:29 AM »
Yup. From a making sure 2020 isn't a repeat of 2016 perspective, a person voting 3rd party rather than for Trump (or not voting rather than voting for Trump) is 1/2 as valuable as a person voting for Biden rather than Trump, and of equal value to a person who stayed home or voted 3rd party in 2016 voting for Biden in 2020.

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3081 on: May 01, 2020, 08:40:15 AM »
I'm much more worried about Biden himself at this point, regardless of the polls and even if Amash never gets in the race. I'm pretty pissed that I have to vote for a likely-rapist (recent information makes me feel like the comparisons to kavanaugh are a lot more equivalent) and cannot imagine that I will be able to advocate voting for him except for a weak-ass "he's better than Trump."

Which is fine and pragmatic and might still be enough. But I'm going to be working the equivalent of 2 full time jobs trying to get Democrats elected up and down the ballot in purple states and if I, and others like me, can't stomach advocating for Biden, I don't know how this ends well. The same uneasiness or disgust that discouraged key voters from voting for HRC in 2016 or even getting to the polls is shaping up to be a problem again.

As I said earlier in this thread, it's a real problem that any accusation of sexual assault (true or no) against a Democrat makes them unviable, but the same against a Republican makes their popularity surge.

v8rx7guy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3082 on: May 01, 2020, 08:42:09 AM »
Biden on "Morning Joe" being interviewed specifically on the Reade allegations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seu_C08yAAM
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 08:57:22 AM by v8rx7guy »

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3083 on: May 01, 2020, 08:44:00 AM »
I'm much more worried about Biden himself at this point, regardless of the polls and even if Amash never gets in the race. I'm pretty pissed that I have to vote for a likely-rapist (recent information makes me feel like the comparisons to kavanaugh are a lot more equivalent) and cannot imagine that I will be able to advocate voting for him except for a weak-ass "he's better than Trump."


Perhaps I missed it... but when did rape enter into it?

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3084 on: May 01, 2020, 08:48:30 AM »
I didn't say I'd rather have Trump over Biden. As has been discussed previously, there are certain things I feel that would keep me from voting for someone else even if I don't like the person they're running against. I've just got to decided if Biden fits that bill to me. There are certain issues he supports that I vehemently oppose and feel are immoral. The more things that come up against him, the harder a decision it is for me. The more things I support for another candidate, the more difficult the decision becomes as well.
Throwing your vote away with a 3rd party or not voting is a defacto vote for Trump and you know it.

Sure, whatever dude. Your are entitled to your opinion that it's me being a defacto vote for Trump. Mine is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and if you saw certain issues Biden supports as being as immoral as I do, then you would be at least skirting on the edge of immorality if not fully into it by actively supporting him with your vote. You can frame almost any decision you want to that other people make as do what I want done or you're doing this other awful thing. As for me, I'm trying to do what I feel is best in an at best ethically ambiguous situation. You have to live with yourself and your vote and so do I.

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3085 on: May 01, 2020, 08:50:12 AM »
I'm much more worried about Biden himself at this point, regardless of the polls and even if Amash never gets in the race. I'm pretty pissed that I have to vote for a likely-rapist (recent information makes me feel like the comparisons to kavanaugh are a lot more equivalent) and cannot imagine that I will be able to advocate voting for him except for a weak-ass "he's better than Trump."


Perhaps I missed it... but when did rape enter into it?

Colloquially, if perhaps not always codified into law (I don't have expertise in that area) any type of penetration is rape.

v8rx7guy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3086 on: May 01, 2020, 08:58:06 AM »
I'm much more worried about Biden himself at this point, regardless of the polls and even if Amash never gets in the race. I'm pretty pissed that I have to vote for a likely-rapist (recent information makes me feel like the comparisons to kavanaugh are a lot more equivalent) and cannot imagine that I will be able to advocate voting for him except for a weak-ass "he's better than Trump."


Perhaps I missed it... but when did rape enter into it?

I have heard it would be classified that way in many states, but I have not researched it specifically.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3087 on: May 01, 2020, 10:13:10 AM »
Biden on "Morning Joe" being interviewed specifically on the Reade allegations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seu_C08yAAM

The first half of the interview I thought Biden handled the questions well. Then the interviewer repeated her question about his "at least the essence of what she's talking about is real" comment, and he got flustered and simply fell back on, I didn't do it.

I share his frustration that so many are using that comment against him as if he meant accusers should be believed entirely without evidence. That's not what he said and if anyone does believe an accusation should be automatically taken as fact then they're wrong. That would be absurd and dangerous.

He added the word "essence" to his comment for a reason. He even explained what he meant the first time she raised the question, "believing women means taking the woman's claim seriously...but in the end, in every case, the truth is what matters". He never said Blasey-Ford's accusations should be believed without evidence, he was saying that they shouldn't be automatically rejected as a partisan hit job (which is what many Republican's did) and that the claims should be fully investigated (which Republicans were not willing to do). Many Republicans and conservative media even went on the offensive attacking Blasey-Ford's credibility and personal life. They did not believe the essence of what she said, they rejected it out of hand because they didn't want it to be true.

I see no inconsistency here from Biden, but I do see a lot of willful ignorance surrounding Biden's comment on the Kavanaugh case.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3088 on: May 01, 2020, 01:39:50 PM »
Unlike with Kavanaugh, without other women stepping forward to state that they too have been assaulted/raped by Biden then it's hard to really see the allegations against Biden going very far.

In the meantime there are about ten women accusing Trump of assault and rape including a minor who was a young teen.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3089 on: May 01, 2020, 02:33:13 PM »

- SNIP -

In the meantime there are about ten women accusing Trump of assault and rape including a minor who was a young teen.

But you've gotta understand that there has always been a lot of "fake" news around when it comes to Trump. 

With Trump you know what you are getting.  You can be sure some of the accusations are true.  With Biden, there is an element of uncertainty.    Sometimes a choice should be made to go with the familiar.  Sometimes a choice should be made to know what you are getting.  It's the old saying to better choose the devil you know,....

And this is why Trump will win in the Fall.

If any of the above made sense to you, please don't vote this Fall.

nereo

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3090 on: May 01, 2020, 02:36:36 PM »

But you've gotta understand that there has always been a lot of "fake" news around when it comes to Trump. 


What is fake about this news?  Are there not numerous women who have claimed to have been molested by Trump?  Is there not recordings of Trump talking in graphic detail of his sexual exploits (not just the Hollywood Access tape)? 

GuitarStv

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3091 on: May 01, 2020, 02:39:13 PM »

But you've gotta understand that there has always been a lot of "fake" news around when it comes to Trump. 


What is fake about this news?  Are there not numerous women who have claimed to have been molested by Trump?  Is there not recordings of Trump talking in graphic detail of his sexual exploits (not just the Hollywood Access tape)?

It's easy to tell fake news.  Anything critical of Trump is fake news (or fake science, fake memories you may have of things he has said, etc.)

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3092 on: May 01, 2020, 02:56:00 PM »

- SNIP -

In the meantime there are about ten women accusing Trump of assault and rape including a minor who was a young teen.

But you've gotta understand that there has always been a lot of "fake" news around when it comes to Trump. 

With Trump you know what you are getting.  You can be sure some of the accusations are true.  With Biden, there is an element of uncertainty.    Sometimes a choice should be made to go with the familiar.  Sometimes a choice should be made to know what you are getting.  It's the old saying to better choose the devil you know,....

And this is why Trump will win in the Fall.

If any of the above made sense to you, please don't vote this Fall.

Your posts almost never make sense to me.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3093 on: May 01, 2020, 03:02:57 PM »

- SNIP -

In the meantime there are about ten women accusing Trump of assault and rape including a minor who was a young teen.

But you've gotta understand that there has always been a lot of "fake" news around when it comes to Trump. 

With Trump you know what you are getting.  You can be sure some of the accusations are true.  With Biden, there is an element of uncertainty.    Sometimes a choice should be made to go with the familiar.  Sometimes a choice should be made to know what you are getting.  It's the old saying to better choose the devil you know,....

And this is why Trump will win in the Fall.

If any of the above made sense to you, please don't vote this Fall.

Your posts almost never make sense to me.

I think they're trying to say that for Trump supporters the certainty of the fact that he is doing wrong is better than the uncertainty (or makes them feel better about it) of others, and all of that is sarcastically making fun of them.

....I think

secondcor521

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3094 on: May 02, 2020, 09:59:07 PM »
Amash is in.

jim555

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3095 on: May 03, 2020, 08:28:04 AM »
Amash is in.
I would think that hurts Trump as he might drain off disaffected Republicans and people on the Left don't usually vote Libertarian.

bacchi

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3096 on: May 03, 2020, 11:19:57 AM »
Amash is in.
I would think that hurts Trump as he might drain off disaffected Republicans and people on the Left don't usually vote Libertarian.

It definitely hurts Trump.

I may contribute to his campaign. Even getting a sliver of votes away from Trump in WI and MI and PA will help the Democrat candidate. At this point, it could cause Georgia to flip.

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3097 on: May 03, 2020, 11:54:52 AM »
So - who is this guy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Amash

An Arab Republican from Michigan's conservative Dutch country.  Interesting. (former Republican)

He likes Friedrich Hayek.

Gotta throw this link in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

Good that there will be alternatives for president.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3098 on: May 03, 2020, 12:15:01 PM »
Amash is in.
I would think that hurts Trump as he might drain off disaffected Republicans and people on the Left don't usually vote Libertarian.

Minimal chance I would have voted for Trump, zero chance I would have voted for Biden. Now that Amash is in I will almost certainly be voting for him. I'm pretty sure he'll get the Libertarian Party nomination now that he's officially the first Libertarian in Congress. Gary Johnson was a reasonably successful governor - albeit he'd been out of office over a decade. Since Amash is going to be considered by most to hurt Trump's chances, I have a feeling he'll get more media coverage than say somebody of similar stature running for the Green Party.

maizefolk

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #3099 on: May 03, 2020, 12:40:28 PM »
Gotta throw this link in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

pecunia, to be clear I mean this in a positive way, but that has gotta be one of the geekiest things I've seen in a long time. Thanks.

I read through Amash's wikipedia page. I didn't see anything that stands out as particularly out of the mainstream. With the exception of his views on abortion he sounds like a reasonably moderate socially liberal fiscal conservative, exactly the sort of person who wouldn't feel at home in either political party.

Am increasingly convinced this is bad news in terms of the odds of defeating Trump in 2020. Amash sounds more and more like the sort of candidate who would appeal to voters who are solidly anti-Trump but not particularly sold on various parts of the mainstream democratic party platform.

In talking to folks I know in New York and California, I think they may underestimate how much of Biden's current support in the polls is coming from people who are strongly anti-Trump but not necessarily pro-democratic party priorities.