Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 129326 times)

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1400 on: June 16, 2018, 09:54:48 PM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:58:06 PM by Dabnasty »

gaja

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1401 on: June 17, 2018, 01:41:24 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

You explained the principle quite well. Our prison system is based on rehabilitation. The day ABB understands what he has done and regrets it, that will be our revenge. Until then, he will be kept locked up for everyone’s safety. Including his own. He has been sentenced to 21 years in prison, and “safeguarding” for life. In reality, he will be locked up the rest of his life. Death penalty would have given him what he wants, now he can stay on living and make a fool of himself.

And I really can’t be bothered to reply seriously  to px4shooter’s comment implying he thinks our jail cells are luxurious. My country has one of the smallest recidivism rates in the world, your has some of the largest.https://www.google.no/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12 We will keep to what works, not what feeds someone’s need for revenge.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1402 on: June 17, 2018, 06:26:33 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Shane

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1403 on: June 17, 2018, 08:17:35 AM »
The film Breaking the Cycle about Norway's prison system is available on Netflix and for free on YouTube. It's worth the time to watch. Mass incarceration in the US doesn't prevent crime, it creates more of it.

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1404 on: June 17, 2018, 08:24:45 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Kris, the personal attack on px4 is unnecessary.

The first time i heard of restorative justice was an incident in washington stste where they tried it... they had a peace circle, waved burning sage around, and the defendant said he was sorry for all the robberies.  He was released. Two weeks later he stabbed someone to death.

As a concept maybe RJ hss some merit. I wonder what norway does differently?

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1405 on: June 17, 2018, 08:37:29 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Kris, the personal attack on px4 is unnecessary.

The first time i heard of restorative justice was an incident in washington stste where they tried it... they had a peace circle, waved burning sage around, and the defendant said he was sorry for all the robberies.  He was released. Two weeks later he stabbed someone to death.

As a concept maybe RJ hss some merit. I wonder what norway does differently?

Everything?

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1406 on: June 17, 2018, 10:16:54 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Kris, the personal attack on px4 is unnecessary.

The first time i heard of restorative justice was an incident in washington stste where they tried it... they had a peace circle, waved burning sage around, and the defendant said he was sorry for all the robberies.  He was released. Two weeks later he stabbed someone to death.

As a concept maybe RJ hss some merit. I wonder what norway does differently?

Everything?

Pretty much! Free education, universal healthcare, a strong sense of community, economic security for everyone (including stay at home folks), for starters.

gaja

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1407 on: June 17, 2018, 11:17:53 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Kris, the personal attack on px4 is unnecessary.

The first time i heard of restorative justice was an incident in washington stste where they tried it... they had a peace circle, waved burning sage around, and the defendant said he was sorry for all the robberies.  He was released. Two weeks later he stabbed someone to death.

As a concept maybe RJ hss some merit. I wonder what norway does differently?

I think we must live in different worlds. Restorative justice has nothing to do with waving smoke. It is hard work done by trained professionals, that takes a lot of time and resources. You basically retrain people, so they have the tools needed to be part of the “normal” society. Since  criminality is so expensive, it makes economic sense.

Maybe this is of some help? http://www.kriminalomsorgen.no/information-in-english.265199.no.html

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1408 on: June 17, 2018, 11:20:35 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Kris, the personal attack on px4 is unnecessary.

The first time i heard of restorative justice was an incident in washington stste where they tried it... they had a peace circle, waved burning sage around, and the defendant said he was sorry for all the robberies.  He was released. Two weeks later he stabbed someone to death.

As a concept maybe RJ hss some merit. I wonder what norway does differently?

Everything?

Pretty much! Free education, universal healthcare, a strong sense of community, economic security for everyone (including stay at home folks), for starters.

I meant in terms of what is meant by restorative justice but this is relevant as well.

I doubt Norway's system of restorative justice involves burning sage and peace circles so that Washington state example kind of seemed like a way to make fun of the concept. This comment does bring up another part of the equation though. You must acknowledge that the sense of community and strong social programs are significant variables when comparing the US and Norway.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:24:37 AM by Dabnasty »

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1409 on: June 17, 2018, 11:39:25 AM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Kris, the personal attack on px4 is unnecessary.

The first time i heard of restorative justice was an incident in washington stste where they tried it... they had a peace circle, waved burning sage around, and the defendant said he was sorry for all the robberies.  He was released. Two weeks later he stabbed someone to death.

As a concept maybe RJ hss some merit. I wonder what norway does differently?

Everything?

Pretty much! Free education, universal healthcare, a strong sense of community, economic security for everyone (including stay at home folks), for starters.

I meant in terms of what is meant by restorative justice but this is relevant as well.

I doubt Norway's system of restorative justice involves burning sage and peace circles so that Washington state example kind of seemed like a way to make fun of the concept. This comment does bring up another part of the equation though. You must acknowledge that the sense of community and strong social programs are significant variables when comparing the US and Norway.

Absolutely! Like many other developed nation's that are so much further ahead than us. Not ironically, it also reflects in their lack of gun related incidents.

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1410 on: June 17, 2018, 10:39:49 PM »
I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Restorative is the restoration of what has occurred. How do you restore the murder of dozens of people? While he plays video games each day living in his apartment with two of his new best friends?

This isn't the simple case of damage or theft. When you look at the killing of someone, there is no simple restoration. There may be a reformation, but the restoration won't occur. Restoration has a time and purpose. When you look at cases of murder, there is no restoration. Where there is some relief due to a confession, admission, and apology, restoration is still not the primary form of justice.

The Old Testament was not revenge. It was equality. What you do unto others is done unto you. I know, a terrible idea, right?

Come participate in some alternative sentencing hearings. They are interesting. In the US, our revolving door justice system does little to show the punishment process is even in effect. It takes several trips before a person is actually sentenced to incarceration. These are the times where true alternative processes should be implemented and our system has failed to create a deterrent or help reform the person. I am not a lock the door and toss the key type, but certain crimes deserve that. Kill all those people--- death is the sentence. Rape children- lock em up and toss the key. Mass murderers can't be fixed and surely don't deserve to be free anyways. Child rapists are no different. They are a threat to children as long as they are able to move.

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1411 on: June 17, 2018, 10:53:50 PM »
And killing all those kids in Norway only got him a 10-21 year sentence. A fine example of a failure of the restorative justice concept.

Not exactly:

Quote
[he] was convicted as charged and sentenced to 21 years of preventive detention in prison (the maximum sentence allowed in Norway), at the expiration of which the sentence can be extended indefinitely, in five year increments at a time, as long as the prisoner is deemed a threat to society.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of the Norwegian legal system can elaborate.

quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Also, I don't understand how this is "a failure of the restorative justice concept". What indicates the concept has failed in this instance?

I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Kris, the personal attack on px4 is unnecessary.

The first time i heard of restorative justice was an incident in washington stste where they tried it... they had a peace circle, waved burning sage around, and the defendant said he was sorry for all the robberies.  He was released. Two weeks later he stabbed someone to death.

As a concept maybe RJ hss some merit. I wonder what norway does differently?

Everything?

Pretty much! Free education, universal healthcare, a strong sense of community, economic security for everyone (including stay at home folks), for starters.

I meant in terms of what is meant by restorative justice but this is relevant as well.

I doubt Norway's system of restorative justice involves burning sage and peace circles so that Washington state example kind of seemed like a way to make fun of the concept. This comment does bring up another part of the equation though. You must acknowledge that the sense of community and strong social programs are significant variables when comparing the US and Norway.

No, I brought it up to show what moonbat leftists have tried to foist on the American public while calling it "restorative justice."  In this case, it seemed like restorative justice was another term for a policy of not holding people accountable for their actions. It sounds like restorative justice is infact something else, I was curious what it really meant.  I'll see what the link posted has to say about it.


Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1412 on: June 18, 2018, 05:57:02 AM »
I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Restorative is the restoration of what has occurred. How do you restore the murder of dozens of people? While he plays video games each day living in his apartment with two of his new best friends?

This isn't the simple case of damage or theft. When you look at the killing of someone, there is no simple restoration. There may be a reformation, but the restoration won't occur. Restoration has a time and purpose. When you look at cases of murder, there is no restoration. Where there is some relief due to a confession, admission, and apology, restoration is still not the primary form of justice.

The Old Testament was not revenge. It was equality. What you do unto others is done unto you. I know, a terrible idea, right?

Come participate in some alternative sentencing hearings. They are interesting. In the US, our revolving door justice system does little to show the punishment process is even in effect. It takes several trips before a person is actually sentenced to incarceration. These are the times where true alternative processes should be implemented and our system has failed to create a deterrent or help reform the person. I am not a lock the door and toss the key type, but certain crimes deserve that. Kill all those people--- death is the sentence. Rape children- lock em up and toss the key. Mass murderers can't be fixed and surely don't deserve to be free anyways. Child rapists are no different. They are a threat to children as long as they are able to move.

As I said, it sounded like you did not understand the concept of restorative justice.

Thank you for confirming that.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 07:07:00 AM by Kris »

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1413 on: June 18, 2018, 06:46:04 AM »
I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Restorative is the restoration of what has occurred. How do you restore the murder of dozens of people? While he plays video games each day living in his apartment with two of his new best friends?

This isn't the simple case of damage or theft. When you look at the killing of someone, there is no simple restoration. There may be a reformation, but the restoration won't occur. Restoration has a time and purpose. When you look at cases of murder, there is no restoration. Where there is some relief due to a confession, admission, and apology, restoration is still not the primary form of justice.

The Old Testament was not revenge. It was equality. What you do unto others is done unto you. I know, a terrible idea, right?

Come participate in some alternative sentencing hearings. They are interesting. In the US, our revolving door justice system does little to show the punishment process is even in effect. It takes several trips before a person is actually sentenced to incarceration. These are the times where true alternative processes should be implemented and our system has failed to create a deterrent or help reform the person. I am not a lock the door and toss the key type, but certain crimes deserve that. Kill all those people--- death is the sentence. Rape children- lock em up and toss the key. Mass murderers can't be fixed and surely don't deserve to be free anyways. Child rapists are no different. They are a threat to children as long as they are able to move.

It's like you glossed right over Gaja's comment.

Perhaps you should consider Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world at 20% while in the US 76.6% of prisoners are re-arrested within five years. Guess they are doing something right.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 07:30:03 AM by MasterStache »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1414 on: June 18, 2018, 09:13:39 AM »
Mass shooting last night--1 dead (one of the gunmen), 17 injured by gunfire.  The gunman who died was a convicted felon.  Authorities say it was gang-related.

In Seattle, a good guy with a gun story.  Well, actually two good guys with guns.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1415 on: June 18, 2018, 09:17:05 AM »
I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Restorative is the restoration of what has occurred. How do you restore the murder of dozens of people? While he plays video games each day living in his apartment with two of his new best friends?

This isn't the simple case of damage or theft. When you look at the killing of someone, there is no simple restoration. There may be a reformation, but the restoration won't occur. Restoration has a time and purpose. When you look at cases of murder, there is no restoration. Where there is some relief due to a confession, admission, and apology, restoration is still not the primary form of justice.

The Old Testament was not revenge. It was equality. What you do unto others is done unto you. I know, a terrible idea, right?

Come participate in some alternative sentencing hearings. They are interesting. In the US, our revolving door justice system does little to show the punishment process is even in effect. It takes several trips before a person is actually sentenced to incarceration. These are the times where true alternative processes should be implemented and our system has failed to create a deterrent or help reform the person. I am not a lock the door and toss the key type, but certain crimes deserve that. Kill all those people--- death is the sentence. Rape children- lock em up and toss the key. Mass murderers can't be fixed and surely don't deserve to be free anyways. Child rapists are no different. They are a threat to children as long as they are able to move.

According to that logic, if killers should be killed as the punishment fits the crime, then the punishment for child rape, or any rape for that matter, is not to be locked up and the key thrown away.  Per the OT principle you invoked, such people should themselves be raped.  At least once.  And maybe more.

Personally I find such an idea repulsive.  But then again I feel the same way about using murder as punishment, too.

gaja

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1416 on: June 18, 2018, 05:37:31 PM »
I'm not at all sure Px4 understands the words "restorative" or "justice." What he wants is called "revenge." Not the same thing. And since Norway's system doesn't look like Old Testament revenge (eye for an eye death penalty) he seems unable to widen his brain enough to encompass that their concept is different.

Restorative is the restoration of what has occurred. How do you restore the murder of dozens of people? While he plays video games each day living in his apartment with two of his new best friends?

This isn't the simple case of damage or theft. When you look at the killing of someone, there is no simple restoration. There may be a reformation, but the restoration won't occur. Restoration has a time and purpose. When you look at cases of murder, there is no restoration. Where there is some relief due to a confession, admission, and apology, restoration is still not the primary form of justice.

The Old Testament was not revenge. It was equality. What you do unto others is done unto you. I know, a terrible idea, right?

Come participate in some alternative sentencing hearings. They are interesting. In the US, our revolving door justice system does little to show the punishment process is even in effect. It takes several trips before a person is actually sentenced to incarceration. These are the times where true alternative processes should be implemented and our system has failed to create a deterrent or help reform the person. I am not a lock the door and toss the key type, but certain crimes deserve that. Kill all those people--- death is the sentence. Rape children- lock em up and toss the key. Mass murderers can't be fixed and surely don't deserve to be free anyways. Child rapists are no different. They are a threat to children as long as they are able to move.

A lot of americans look at our system and see naive do-gooders. What they, and likely you, fail to grasp, is that our system is built by cold hearted economists. I don’t know the English term, but everything we do is based on “societal economic calculations”. Every human has a cost, through the cost of their birth, healthcare, education, use of common resources like roads and governance, etc. If that person grows up to work and pay taxes, we might end up with a net gain. If they get too sick to work, or become addicted to drugs, or become criminals, we are looking at a net loss. And those costs can be very large.

Killing off someone you have spent substantial resources on, would be wasteful. Some cases might be hopeless, but this is a big number’s game. For every person we can turn back into a tax payer, the net profit over a lifetime makes it worth while.

And then there is the deterrent effect; for the type of crimes we are discussing here, the research seems to indicate that you can’t scare people off doing it by adding harsh punishments. That can work against economic criminality, speeding, and other types of crime where you are weighing the pros (short time gain) and cons (high fines or jail). By killing them or punishing them very harshly, you can make a sort of hero in certain environments. This can be avoided by letting them show themselves as the idiots they are. And if you can get them to the point where they admit they were wrong, that can be used for propaganda.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1417 on: June 18, 2018, 06:37:06 PM »
Mass shooting last night--1 dead (one of the gunmen), 17 injured by gunfire.  The gunman who died was a convicted felon.  Authorities say it was gang-related.

In Seattle, a good guy with a gun story.  Well, actually two good guys with guns.

So, from the stories you posted, after all is tallied up . . .

Net benefit of gun availability: 1 car saved
Net disadvantage of gun availability: 2 dead, 19 injured

Which side are you arguing for again?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1418 on: June 18, 2018, 08:31:00 PM »
Mass shooting last night--1 dead (one of the gunmen), 17 injured by gunfire.  The gunman who died was a convicted felon.  Authorities say it was gang-related.

In Seattle, a good guy with a gun story.  Well, actually two good guys with guns.

So, from the stories you posted, after all is tallied up . . .

Net benefit of gun availability: 1 car saved
Net disadvantage of gun availability: 2 dead, 19 injured

Which side are you arguing for again?
I'd say that "gun availability to law-abiding citizens" would move those two dead into the "benefit" column, along with a fair number of injuries avoided, plus the prevention of the crimes those two deceased individuals would have committed through the rest of their lives had they been left unopposed.

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1419 on: June 19, 2018, 05:50:27 AM »
Mass shooting last night--1 dead (one of the gunmen), 17 injured by gunfire.  The gunman who died was a convicted felon.  Authorities say it was gang-related.

In Seattle, a good guy with a gun story.  Well, actually two good guys with guns.

So, from the stories you posted, after all is tallied up . . .

Net benefit of gun availability: 1 car saved
Net disadvantage of gun availability: 2 dead, 19 injured

Which side are you arguing for again?
I'd say that "gun availability to law-abiding citizens" would move those two dead into the "benefit" column, along with a fair number of injuries avoided, plus the prevention of the crimes those two deceased individuals would have committed through the rest of their lives had they been left unopposed.

Amazing how you can spin a mass shooting into something positive. Hey 17 people were shot and multiple injured during the ensuing stampede, but let's look at what could have happened and spin this into a win for "good guys with guns." Man that is some twisted fucked up logic.


ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1420 on: June 19, 2018, 07:47:02 AM »
Mass shooting last night--1 dead (one of the gunmen), 17 injured by gunfire.  The gunman who died was a convicted felon.  Authorities say it was gang-related.

In Seattle, a good guy with a gun story.  Well, actually two good guys with guns.

So, from the stories you posted, after all is tallied up . . .

Net benefit of gun availability: 1 car saved
Net disadvantage of gun availability: 2 dead, 19 injured

Which side are you arguing for again?
I'd say that "gun availability to law-abiding citizens" would move those two dead into the "benefit" column, along with a fair number of injuries avoided, plus the prevention of the crimes those two deceased individuals would have committed through the rest of their lives had they been left unopposed.

Amazing how you can spin a mass shooting into something positive. Hey 17 people were shot and multiple injured during the ensuing stampede, but let's look at what could have happened and spin this into a win for "good guys with guns." Man that is some twisted fucked up logic.

That math is a bit suspect in my mind... clearly the shootings certainly weren't positive things, but someone who was shooting people was stopped by armed citizens. Stopping a criminal with clear murderous intent IS a positive thing. Unless you were willing to gamble that the third, or fourth victim of the carjacker was only going to be seriously injured, not killed?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1421 on: June 19, 2018, 07:47:16 AM »
Mass shooting last night--1 dead (one of the gunmen), 17 injured by gunfire.  The gunman who died was a convicted felon.  Authorities say it was gang-related.

In Seattle, a good guy with a gun story.  Well, actually two good guys with guns.

So, from the stories you posted, after all is tallied up . . .

Net benefit of gun availability: 1 car saved
Net disadvantage of gun availability: 2 dead, 19 injured

Which side are you arguing for again?
I'd say that "gun availability to law-abiding citizens" would move those two dead into the "benefit" column, along with a fair number of injuries avoided, plus the prevention of the crimes those two deceased individuals would have committed through the rest of their lives had they been left unopposed.

Amazing how you can spin a mass shooting into something positive. Hey 17 people were shot and multiple injured during the ensuing stampede, but let's look at what could have happened and spin this into a win for "good guys with guns." Man that is some twisted fucked up logic.
I re-read my post, and I don't see where you get the "something positive."  I would much prefer a world where two people didn't get killed and 24 injured.  But I also recognize that such is not the world we live in.  Since that ideal isn't available to us, we must look to the best (or least-bad) outcome among those that *are* available.  In this case, two would-be murders dead instead of a much larger number of intended victims is a net positive.  I absolutely wish those two individuals had chosen a better path in life, and that nobody would have been injured or killed.

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1422 on: June 19, 2018, 08:03:25 AM »
Mass shooting last night--1 dead (one of the gunmen), 17 injured by gunfire.  The gunman who died was a convicted felon.  Authorities say it was gang-related.

In Seattle, a good guy with a gun story.  Well, actually two good guys with guns.

So, from the stories you posted, after all is tallied up . . .

Net benefit of gun availability: 1 car saved
Net disadvantage of gun availability: 2 dead, 19 injured

Which side are you arguing for again?
I'd say that "gun availability to law-abiding citizens" would move those two dead into the "benefit" column, along with a fair number of injuries avoided, plus the prevention of the crimes those two deceased individuals would have committed through the rest of their lives had they been left unopposed.

Amazing how you can spin a mass shooting into something positive. Hey 17 people were shot and multiple injured during the ensuing stampede, but let's look at what could have happened and spin this into a win for "good guys with guns." Man that is some twisted fucked up logic.
I re-read my post, and I don't see where you get the "something positive."  I would much prefer a world where two people didn't get killed and 24 injured.  But I also recognize that such is not the world we live in.  Since that ideal isn't available to us, we must look to the best (or least-bad) outcome among those that *are* available.  In this case, two would-be murders dead instead of a much larger number of intended victims is a net positive.  I absolutely wish those two individuals had chosen a better path in life, and that nobody would have been injured or killed.
And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere. 

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1423 on: June 19, 2018, 08:12:23 AM »

And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere.

Well, here you go:

Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

That gets you started.

And that's why indulging in this fantasyland of outlawing guns and rounding them up is simple liberal masturbation and a giant waste of time.  That's not the world (country) we live in.  And that's why law abiding gun owners don't want to give theirs up, because they recognize and understand this, that it's better to not let the criminals be the only guys with guns because they aren't going away.

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1424 on: June 19, 2018, 08:17:56 AM »

And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere.

Well, here you go:

Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

That gets you started.

And that's why indulging in this fantasyland of outlawing guns and rounding them up is simple liberal masturbation and a giant waste of time.  That's not the world (country) we live in.  And that's why law abiding gun owners don't want to give theirs up, because they recognize and understand this, that it's better to not let the criminals be the only guys with guns because they aren't going away.
Well, here you go:

1. Stop leaping to removing guns being the only solution and therefore we should just not actually work and think of a solution.

I never said in this instance that the goal was to ban or even curtail weapons.  The goal is to stop having this crap happen in our country when it does not in others.  Are you saying the reason it does not happen elsewhere is because they have banned guns?  If so, then I guess you are right in suggesting that guns are the cause.  But my guess is that is not what you are suggesting, you are just responding poorly.

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1425 on: June 19, 2018, 08:20:55 AM »

And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere.

Well, here you go:

Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

That gets you started.

And that's why indulging in this fantasyland of outlawing guns and rounding them up is simple liberal masturbation and a giant waste of time.  That's not the world (country) we live in.  And that's why law abiding gun owners don't want to give theirs up, because they recognize and understand this, that it's better to not let the criminals be the only guys with guns because they aren't going away.
Well, here you go:

1. Stop leaping to removing guns being the only solution and therefore we should just not actually work and think of a solution.

I never said in this instance that the goal was to ban or even curtail weapons.  The goal is to stop having this crap happen in our country when it does not in others.  Are you saying the reason it does not happen elsewhere is because they have banned guns?  If so, then I guess you are right in suggesting that guns are the cause.  But my guess is that is not what you are suggesting, you are just responding poorly.

Hey, we're in agreement!

Now just get the rest of the gun grabbers on board and we're in business. 

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1426 on: June 19, 2018, 09:40:53 AM »

And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere.

Well, here you go:

Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

That gets you started.

And that's why indulging in this fantasyland of outlawing guns and rounding them up is simple liberal masturbation and a giant waste of time.  That's not the world (country) we live in.  And that's why law abiding gun owners don't want to give theirs up, because they recognize and understand this, that it's better to not let the criminals be the only guys with guns because they aren't going away.
Well, here you go:

1. Stop leaping to removing guns being the only solution and therefore we should just not actually work and think of a solution.

I never said in this instance that the goal was to ban or even curtail weapons.  The goal is to stop having this crap happen in our country when it does not in others.  Are you saying the reason it does not happen elsewhere is because they have banned guns?  If so, then I guess you are right in suggesting that guns are the cause.  But my guess is that is not what you are suggesting, you are just responding poorly.

Hey, we're in agreement!

Now just get the rest of the gun grabbers on board and we're in business.

A small minority of the US supports a complete ban and a small number of people have suggested support for such a thing on this forum. Those that have cite frustration with lack of compromise from the GRA crowd. I don't agree with that reasoning, but the point is this argument (and many of your arguments on this topic) are against things that don't exist.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1427 on: June 19, 2018, 09:44:25 AM »

And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere.

Well, here you go:

Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

That gets you started.

And that's why indulging in this fantasyland of outlawing guns and rounding them up is simple liberal masturbation and a giant waste of time.  That's not the world (country) we live in.  And that's why law abiding gun owners don't want to give theirs up, because they recognize and understand this, that it's better to not let the criminals be the only guys with guns because they aren't going away.
Well, here you go:

1. Stop leaping to removing guns being the only solution and therefore we should just not actually work and think of a solution.

I never said in this instance that the goal was to ban or even curtail weapons.  The goal is to stop having this crap happen in our country when it does not in others.  Are you saying the reason it does not happen elsewhere is because they have banned guns?  If so, then I guess you are right in suggesting that guns are the cause.  But my guess is that is not what you are suggesting, you are just responding poorly.

Hey, we're in agreement!

Now just get the rest of the gun grabbers on board and we're in business.

A small minority of the US supports a complete ban and a small number of people have suggested support for such a thing on this forum. Those that have cite frustration with lack of compromise from the GRA crowd. I don't agree with that reasoning, but the point is this argument (and many of your arguments on this topic) are against things that don't exist.

Yes, but if one constantly argues against something that doesn't exist, one can permanently avoid a discussion of any real substance regarding trying to change the status quo re gun violence.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1428 on: June 19, 2018, 09:55:15 AM »
The core problem with this whole “good guy” belief is the giant fallacy of human nature. People aren’t born good or bad. I get that it’s probably very satisfying to strap on a weapon every morning and feel like you are one of the “good” ones, that your kids will never be “those” kids. I bet everyone who knew the Vegas shooter thought that. I find it so interesting that when they couldn’t come up with a good mental health angle, everyone stopped talking about that guy. He’s one of yours. Which is why just allowing anyone who wants to be armed is not seen as a great answer. A huge part of this problem is all these “good guys” allowing their weapons to get in the wrong hands. Including their own children.


Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1429 on: June 19, 2018, 09:58:30 AM »

And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere.

Well, here you go:

Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

That gets you started.

And that's why indulging in this fantasyland of outlawing guns and rounding them up is simple liberal masturbation and a giant waste of time.  That's not the world (country) we live in.  And that's why law abiding gun owners don't want to give theirs up, because they recognize and understand this, that it's better to not let the criminals be the only guys with guns because they aren't going away.
Well, here you go:

1. Stop leaping to removing guns being the only solution and therefore we should just not actually work and think of a solution.

I never said in this instance that the goal was to ban or even curtail weapons.  The goal is to stop having this crap happen in our country when it does not in others.  Are you saying the reason it does not happen elsewhere is because they have banned guns?  If so, then I guess you are right in suggesting that guns are the cause.  But my guess is that is not what you are suggesting, you are just responding poorly.

Hey, we're in agreement!

Now just get the rest of the gun grabbers on board and we're in business.

A small minority of the US supports a complete ban and a small number of people have suggested support for such a thing on this forum. Those that have cite frustration with lack of compromise from the GRA crowd. I don't agree with that reasoning, but the point is this argument (and many of your arguments on this topic) are against things that don't exist.

It's not just about a total ban, I would put any sort of firearm-specific ban like an assault weapons ban or a magazine capacity limit as the same damned thing, and those have wide support on the left.  If you admit that rounding up all guns is silly and ineffective, then rounding up all guns of a specific type is the exact same thing. 

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1430 on: June 19, 2018, 10:08:06 AM »
Ah yes, the old "There's certainly no difference in deadliness between a heavy machine gun and a BB gun, so restricting sales of the former is the same as restricting sales of the latter" argument.  I know that GRA folks typically think that anyone who doesn't hold their point of view is an idiot regarding firearms . . . but that belief leads to some laughably bad logic, as demonstrated by Chris.

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1431 on: June 19, 2018, 10:20:53 AM »
Ah yes, the old "There's certainly no difference in deadliness between a heavy machine gun and a BB gun, so restricting sales of the former is the same as restricting sales of the latter" argument.  I know that GRA folks typically think that anyone who doesn't hold their point of view is an idiot regarding firearms . . . but that belief leads to some laughably bad logic, as demonstrated by Chris.

Except the lines are drawn so low that every gun of mine is illegal in California.  Including my .22, laughably so.

If you are going to make every gun or a vast majority of guns illegal for millions of gun owners, it is basically the same thing.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1432 on: June 19, 2018, 10:21:50 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1433 on: June 19, 2018, 10:48:35 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

Well, it didn't take long to get back into fantasyland, did it?  Sweet jesus.

If someone made a magical fairy wand that, if waved, would make all guns disappear from the world, yes, 2A supporters would have to take a very long look in the mirror and think about the ramifications of using that.

Absent that, in the real world where all of us live, there exists no possible method to "just get rid of the sharks."  All you can do is disarm the law abiding.  And THAT is untenable. 

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1434 on: June 19, 2018, 10:54:14 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

Well, it didn't take long to get back into fantasyland, did it?  Sweet jesus.

If someone made a magical fairy wand that, if waved, would make all guns disappear from the world, yes, 2A supporters would have to take a very long look in the mirror and think about the ramifications of using that.

Absent that, in the real world where all of us live, there exists no possible method to "just get rid of the sharks."  All you can do is disarm the law abiding.  And THAT is untenable.

Hey, at least we agree in principle that removing guns from the system is the safest option.  We only disagree about the practicality.

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1435 on: June 19, 2018, 11:00:59 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

Well, it didn't take long to get back into fantasyland, did it?  Sweet jesus.

If someone made a magical fairy wand that, if waved, would make all guns disappear from the world, yes, 2A supporters would have to take a very long look in the mirror and think about the ramifications of using that.

Absent that, in the real world where all of us live, there exists no possible method to "just get rid of the sharks."  All you can do is disarm the law abiding.  And THAT is untenable.

Hey, at least we agree in principle that removing guns from the system is the safest option.  We only disagree about the practicality.

Love to see your plan.

Also, it's safe for me because I'm a relatively young, fit, largish able-bodied man.  Nobody looks at me and thinks "soft target".  Plus I'm straight and white and Protestant.  For all their talk about protecting minorities, the left never really understands the best way for a person to protect themselves if they are for instance a minority who might be targeted for abuse or harassment is with the 2A. 

Check out something like pinkpistols.org sometime. 

ematicic

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1436 on: June 19, 2018, 11:04:00 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

The "Basic Logic" is severely flawed with the assumption people will follow the rules and laws. Are you suggesting that the Government declare martial law and confiscate everyone's weapons? In most criminal shootings there are existing gun laws that have been broken.

Put up a sign, and have that sign say "No Sharks Allowed", I suspect that it will not deter many sharks.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1437 on: June 19, 2018, 11:21:37 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

Well, it didn't take long to get back into fantasyland, did it?  Sweet jesus.

If someone made a magical fairy wand that, if waved, would make all guns disappear from the world, yes, 2A supporters would have to take a very long look in the mirror and think about the ramifications of using that.

Absent that, in the real world where all of us live, there exists no possible method to "just get rid of the sharks."  All you can do is disarm the law abiding.  And THAT is untenable.

Hey, at least we agree in principle that removing guns from the system is the safest option.  We only disagree about the practicality.

Love to see your plan.

Also, it's safe for me because I'm a relatively young, fit, largish able-bodied man.  Nobody looks at me and thinks "soft target".  Plus I'm straight and white and Protestant.  For all their talk about protecting minorities, the left never really understands the best way for a person to protect themselves if they are for instance a minority who might be targeted for abuse or harassment is with the 2A. 

Check out something like pinkpistols.org sometime.

Cases like Philando Castile's would seem to argue that carrying a gun isn't safe for minorities.  The fact that there has been no outcry over the case from GRAs and the NRA shows how hollow and false this 'protect the minorities' sentiment really is.

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1438 on: June 19, 2018, 11:24:56 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

Well, it didn't take long to get back into fantasyland, did it?  Sweet jesus.

If someone made a magical fairy wand that, if waved, would make all guns disappear from the world, yes, 2A supporters would have to take a very long look in the mirror and think about the ramifications of using that.

Absent that, in the real world where all of us live, there exists no possible method to "just get rid of the sharks."  All you can do is disarm the law abiding.  And THAT is untenable.

Hey, at least we agree in principle that removing guns from the system is the safest option.  We only disagree about the practicality.

Love to see your plan.

Also, it's safe for me because I'm a relatively young, fit, largish able-bodied man.  Nobody looks at me and thinks "soft target".  Plus I'm straight and white and Protestant.  For all their talk about protecting minorities, the left never really understands the best way for a person to protect themselves if they are for instance a minority who might be targeted for abuse or harassment is with the 2A. 

Check out something like pinkpistols.org sometime.

Cases like Philando Castile's would seem to argue that carrying a gun isn't safe for minorities.  The fact that there has been no outcry over the case from GRAs and the NRA shows how hollow and false this 'protect the minorities' sentiment really is.

Quote
Loesch pointed out in her Thursday tweet that Castile was breaking the law by having a controlled substance in his possession at the time of the shooting. According to a memo filed during Yanez's case by his attorneys, Castile was a regular marijuana user and had high levels of THC in his system when he died.

According to the memo, Castile lied on his application for his firearm permit by denying he was "unlawful user of any controlled substance." It is a felony to be in possession of a controlled substance while armed with a firearm, even if lawfully in possession of the gun.

Yanez testified that the car smelled like marijuana when he pulled Castile over, and later on, Castile's fiancé Diamond Reynolds told police they had smoked marijuana before being pulled over, and had the drug in their car.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dana-loesch-explains-why-the-nra-didnt-defend-philando-castile

ematicic

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1439 on: June 19, 2018, 11:34:20 AM »
Meanwhile, just yesterday in Chicago, 3 killed and 13 wounded. One Day. Chicago has very strict gun laws in comparison to the National averages. I would make an argument that many of the shooters in this "non-story" should have a gun if they are in fact law abiding. This is one day and only made the local news because it is the norm.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/3-killed-12-wounded-in-shootings-in-chicago-monday/

Three people were killed and 13 others were wounded in shootings across the city between about 1 a.m. and 11 p.m. Monday.

By 5 a.m., 11 people had been shot.

The most recent fatal shooting happened about 1:35 p.m. in the West Side Austin neighborhood.

Anthony Perry, 30, was shot in the chest and abdomen about 1:35 p.m. in the 500 block of North Laramie after getting into an argument with a group of four males, according to Chicago Police and the Cook County Medical Examiner’s Office. He was taken to Mount Sinai Hospital, where he was pronounced dead, authorities said. He lived in the Lawndale neighborhood.

Witnesses told police they saw four males running away from the scene, police said. Area North detectives were investigating.

Five people were shot, two fatally, minutes after the sun rose in the University Village neighborhood on the Near West Side.

The shooting happened about 4:50 a.m. after a party at the ABLA/Brooks Homes in the 1300 block of South Loomis, police said.

Shalonza E. McToy, 22, was discovered at 1400 South Washburne and was pronounced dead at the scene, according to police and the Cook County Medical Examiner’s Office. She had been shot in the head, chest, left arm and ear.

Erin Carey, 17, was shot multiple times in the head and was taken by paramedics to Stroger Hospital in “very critical” condition. The boy died about 1:15 a.m. Tuesday at the hospital, according to authorities.

When officers arrived at the scene, a 21-year-old man and a 23-year-old man ran up to a police car. The younger man had been shot in the right calf and the older man suffered a gunshot wound to the right arm. Paramedics took both men to Stroger where their conditions had stabilized.

A 23-year-old man was taken to Mount Sinai hospital by his girlfriend where he was his condition stabilized. He had been shot multiple times in the abdomen, police said. Area Central detectives were conducting a homicide investigation.

The two most recent non-fatal shootings both happened in the Albany Park neighborhood on the Northwest Side.

At 11:02 p.m., a 33-year-old man was walking when he got into an argument with someone who fired a shot, striking him in the leg at 11:02 p.m. in the 4700 block of North Kimball, according to police.

He took himself to Swedish Covenant Hospital and was transferred to Illinois Masonic Medical Center, where his condition was stabilized, police said.

About 10:42 p.m., a 30-year-old man was sitting in a vehicle with two friends when someone walked up and fired shots in the 3400 block of West Montrose, striking him in the torso, according to police. He was taken to Illinois Masonic Medical Center, where his condition stabilized, police said.

About 7:55 p.m., a 28-year-old man was wounded in a shooting in the West Side Austin neighborhood.

The man was walking in the 100 block of North Parkside when he was shot in the chest, according to police. He did not know where the shots came from.

He was taken to Loretto Hospital, where his condition stabilized, police said.

Another man was shot about 4:20 p.m. in the South Side Woodlawn neighborhood.

The 29-year-old was driving a vehicle west in the 1600 block of East 67th Street about 4:20 p.m. when a small, black SUV pulled up and two people got out and opened fire, according to police.

He suffered a gunshot wound to the hand and drove himself to University of Chicago Medical Center, where his condition stabilized, police said.

A 44-year-old man was shot during a carjacking in the East Garfield Park neighborhood on the West Side about 5:10 a.m.

The carjacker shot the man in his abdomen and then stole his vehicle  in the 700 block of North Monticello. He was taken to Mount Sinai Hospital in serious condition, police said.

Earlier in the morning, two men were seriously wounded in separate shootings in the Englewood neighborhood on the South Side.

A 37-year-old man was standing outside when he heard gunfire and was shot in the back about 4:30 a.m., in the 6600 block of South Justine Street. He was taken to University of Chicago Medical Center, where he was in serious condition, police said.

Another man was seriously wounded in Englewood about 2:40 a.m.

The 30-year-old was traveling in a vehicle in the 6000 block of South Racine when someone in a a vehicle following the man pulled out a weapon and fired shots, striking the man in the face, police said.

He took himself to Saint Bernard Hospital, where he was in serious condition.

Five minutes earlier, a 20-year-old woman was shot multiple times in the South Side Avalon Park neighborhood.

Witnesses told police they heard shots and found the woman lying in the street about 2:35 a.m. in the 1100 block of East 83rd Street. She was taken to University of Chicago Medical Center, where her condition stabilized. She had been shot multiple times in her head, leg, arm and hand, police said.

Five minutes before that, a 33-year-old man was shot in the Park Manor neighborhood on the South Side.

About 2:30 a.m., the man was arguing with someone about money in the 7400 block of South Perry Avenue, according to police. The other person pulled out a weapon and shot the man in his chest.

He was taken to University of Chicago Medical Center in critical condition, police said.

The first non-fatal shooting of the day happened about 1:10 a.m. A 22-year-old man was taking out his garbage when someone in a passing vehicle fired shots in the 2600 block of South Homan Avenue in the Little Village neighborhood, police said.

He was struck in his leg and was taken in fair condition to Mount Sinai Hospital, police said. Area Central detectives were investigating the shooting.

On Sunday, three people were killed and 16 others were wounded by gun violence.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1440 on: June 19, 2018, 11:41:45 AM »
That just proves my point Chris.  Smelling weed in a car is no reason for an officer to shoot someone dead.

Castille is dead because he was a minority carrying a gun . . . which you're saying makes people safer.

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1441 on: June 19, 2018, 11:57:03 AM »
Having guns every where is like swimming with sharks.  You might feel "Well if I own a trained shark it will protect me from all the other sharks out there". 

People fail to see that the best option is to just remove the sharks from the system.  The very fact of having sharks in the water raises the threat level for everyone, regardless of whether you have your own trained protector shark. 

Just get rid of the sharks and everyone is safer. 

How can people not see this basic logic?

Well, it didn't take long to get back into fantasyland, did it?  Sweet jesus.

If someone made a magical fairy wand that, if waved, would make all guns disappear from the world, yes, 2A supporters would have to take a very long look in the mirror and think about the ramifications of using that.

Absent that, in the real world where all of us live, there exists no possible method to "just get rid of the sharks."  All you can do is disarm the law abiding.  And THAT is untenable.

Hey, at least we agree in principle that removing guns from the system is the safest option.  We only disagree about the practicality.

Love to see your plan.

Also, it's safe for me because I'm a relatively young, fit, largish able-bodied man.  Nobody looks at me and thinks "soft target".  Plus I'm straight and white and Protestant.  For all their talk about protecting minorities, the left never really understands the best way for a person to protect themselves if they are for instance a minority who might be targeted for abuse or harassment is with the 2A. 

Check out something like pinkpistols.org sometime.

When are you going to accept the overwhelming evidence proving that owning a gun DOES NOT make you safer? It's technically not untenable to disarm the law abiding. Repeal the 2A and ban firearms. Those owning a firearm are now no longer law abiding. Not saying I support such a move, but it's absolutely possible. And you never know, as law abiding gun owners continue to fuel gun violence at an alarming rate, such a move could gain support in the future. 

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1442 on: June 19, 2018, 12:09:21 PM »
Meanwhile, just yesterday in Chicago, 3 killed and 13 wounded. One Day. Chicago has very strict gun laws in comparison to the National averages. I would make an argument that many of the shooters in this "non-story" should have a gun if they are in fact law abiding. This is one day and only made the local news because it is the norm.

Ah.  Lots of shootings in Chicago.  That must mean that the gun control laws Chicago has don't work, right?

Well, it turns out that the majority (by a safe margin) of the guns recovered from Chicago crimes come from other states.  States without strong gun laws.  Lax gun laws impact people far away from the states that legislate them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/07/where-the-guns-used-in-chicago-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.d459db524280

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1443 on: June 19, 2018, 12:12:58 PM »

And many of us have been suggesting putting our energy to figuring exactly why this is versus saying guns helped save people.  Because you know what, this is the world much of the rest of the planet is living in, where 2 people are not killed and 24 injured because of whatever is causing people in our country to do these things at a rate that exceeds what happens elsewhere.

Well, here you go:

Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

That gets you started.

And that's why indulging in this fantasyland of outlawing guns and rounding them up is simple liberal masturbation and a giant waste of time.  That's not the world (country) we live in.  And that's why law abiding gun owners don't want to give theirs up, because they recognize and understand this, that it's better to not let the criminals be the only guys with guns because they aren't going away.
Well, here you go:

1. Stop leaping to removing guns being the only solution and therefore we should just not actually work and think of a solution.

I never said in this instance that the goal was to ban or even curtail weapons.  The goal is to stop having this crap happen in our country when it does not in others.  Are you saying the reason it does not happen elsewhere is because they have banned guns?  If so, then I guess you are right in suggesting that guns are the cause.  But my guess is that is not what you are suggesting, you are just responding poorly.

Hey, we're in agreement!

Now just get the rest of the gun grabbers on board and we're in business.

A small minority of the US supports a complete ban and a small number of people have suggested support for such a thing on this forum. Those that have cite frustration with lack of compromise from the GRA crowd. I don't agree with that reasoning, but the point is this argument (and many of your arguments on this topic) are against things that don't exist.

It's not just about a total ban, I would put any sort of firearm-specific ban like an assault weapons ban or a magazine capacity limit as the same damned thing, and those have wide support on the left.  If you admit that rounding up all guns is silly and ineffective, then rounding up all guns of a specific type is the exact same thing.

Do you really believe this? What do you mean by exact same?

Quote
Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

If this was about assault weapons* Step 1 would no longer apply

Quote
Substantial majorities also favor creating a federal government database to track all gun sales (71%), banning assault-style weapons (68%), and banning high-capacity magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition (65%).

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/

Step 2 would be a significantly smaller number but I accept that the transition could take many years. Still, it's not uncommon for mass shooters to purchase weapons shortly before they plan to use them.

Step 3 may still apply, but it would almost certainly increase the difficulty and cost of obtaining banned guns. I agree that we can't stop an individual from doing something 100% of the time; where there's a will, there's a way. But it's fairly obvious on a societal level people are lazy and most choose the path of least resistance.

*I recognize the complexity and that there are common misconceptions about what an assault weapon is. In this context I am using it to represent guns which are actually more dangerous and not just guns that look more dangerous. The specifics should be decided by experts.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1444 on: June 19, 2018, 12:13:48 PM »
Meanwhile, just yesterday in Chicago, 3 killed and 13 wounded. One Day. Chicago has very strict gun laws in comparison to the National averages. I would make an argument that many of the shooters in this "non-story" should have a gun if they are in fact law abiding. This is one day and only made the local news because it is the norm.

Ah.  Lots of shootings in Chicago.  That must mean that the gun control laws Chicago has don't work, right?

Well, it turns out that the majority (by a safe margin) of the guns recovered from Chicago crimes come from other states.  States without strong gun laws.  Lax gun laws impact people far away from the states that legislate them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/07/where-the-guns-used-in-chicago-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.d459db524280

Well obviously Chicago needs to build themselves a wall.

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1445 on: June 19, 2018, 12:23:59 PM »
That just proves my point Chris.  Smelling weed in a car is no reason for an officer to shoot someone dead.

Castille is dead because he was a minority carrying a gun . . . which you're saying makes people safer.

Smelling weed doesn't justify shooting someone, however do you understand your demand that the NRA defend him is ridiculous?

If they defend him, they're defending someone who lied on their 4473, and who carried under the influence, and who according to the law, shouldn't have a gun.

If they don't defend him, they're a racist organization.

Nice choice you've attempted to give them.  Staying quiet is their only option.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1446 on: June 19, 2018, 12:26:01 PM »
Meanwhile, just yesterday in Chicago, 3 killed and 13 wounded. One Day. Chicago has very strict gun laws in comparison to the National averages. I would make an argument that many of the shooters in this "non-story" should have a gun if they are in fact law abiding. This is one day and only made the local news because it is the norm.

Ah.  Lots of shootings in Chicago.  That must mean that the gun control laws Chicago has don't work, right?

Well, it turns out that the majority (by a safe margin) of the guns recovered from Chicago crimes come from other states.  States without strong gun laws.  Lax gun laws impact people far away from the states that legislate them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/07/where-the-guns-used-in-chicago-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.d459db524280

Well obviously Chicago needs to build themselves a wall.

They need something. Did you read all of the violence, all from just Monday. And if you go to the source, Sunday was worse. 6 people dead in 2 days. My argument is not "pro-gun" just that "Gun Violence" has less to do with the gun and more to do with human nature. This death rate is a societal norm for this region. Face it, 2A is not going away, period. But nobody wants to discuss root cause. And worse, they want to demonize police for trying to keep violence at bay. Yes, I agree some cops are bad, a very few. And yes, I am sure many are not trained well enough to police in a near-war zone. People need to be held accountable if the lawless mentality is ever expected to reverse course.

It is too easy to laugh it off and to say, well yeah, but that is Chicago.... And move on as if these people aren't important. Gang violence, drug violence they are directly tied to the movement of large scale weapon caches. Even consider absent parents and a lack of morals and virtues, many of these kids are raised in gang violence, who protests that? People claim like they want to be a hero and make a difference but what good is a rally to protest a cold dead gun when gangs and drugs are so prevalent?

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1447 on: June 19, 2018, 12:26:31 PM »

When are you going to accept the overwhelming evidence proving that owning a gun DOES NOT make you safer?

Given the way it's twisted and tortured to make a point (i.e., including suicides), probably never.

Quote
It's technically not untenable to disarm the law abiding. Repeal the 2A and ban firearms.

Good luck getting the votes to repeal the 2A.  Like the steps to being a millionaire "step 1, get $1M..."

Quote
Those owning a firearm are now no longer law abiding. Not saying I support such a move, but it's absolutely possible.

It's possible, sure, just like winning Powerball is "possible".

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1448 on: June 19, 2018, 12:28:09 PM »
Meanwhile, just yesterday in Chicago, 3 killed and 13 wounded. One Day. Chicago has very strict gun laws in comparison to the National averages. I would make an argument that many of the shooters in this "non-story" should have a gun if they are in fact law abiding. This is one day and only made the local news because it is the norm.

Ah.  Lots of shootings in Chicago.  That must mean that the gun control laws Chicago has don't work, right?

Well, it turns out that the majority (by a safe margin) of the guns recovered from Chicago crimes come from other states.  States without strong gun laws.  Lax gun laws impact people far away from the states that legislate them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/07/where-the-guns-used-in-chicago-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.d459db524280

But those places don't have high gun crime rates.  Wait a minute!  Does that mean that gun laws are mostly irrelevant to gun crime rates?  So the solution is....more gun laws?

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1449 on: June 19, 2018, 12:50:10 PM »
It's not just about a total ban, I would put any sort of firearm-specific ban like an assault weapons ban or a magazine capacity limit as the same damned thing, and those have wide support on the left.  If you admit that rounding up all guns is silly and ineffective, then rounding up all guns of a specific type is the exact same thing.

Do you really believe this? What do you mean by exact same?

I do.  What do I mean?  A number of different things.  One is that a ban of semiautomatic rifles and handguns is a de facto ban on 80% of all weapons, because they are the most popular and most prevalent.  It's also nonsensical because assault weapons make up a tiny percentage of crimes committed. 

Quote
Quote
Step 1: Convince 67% of the population to overturn 2A and outlaw guns
Step 2: Somehow round up the +/- 300M guns that are out there in circulation
Step 3: Secure the border to ensure no more guns come in

If this was about assault weapons* Step 1 would no longer apply

Quote
Substantial majorities also favor creating a federal government database to track all gun sales (71%), banning assault-style weapons (68%), and banning high-capacity magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition (65%).

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/

Roll eyes.  Do I really need to explain how a Constitutional amendment works?  It's not a 67% popularity contest.  I'll assume this is just not an argument made in good faith and you knew exactly what I meant.  That all of CA and NYC believe something doesn't mean you can amend the Constitution.