Author Topic: "Trigger" words  (Read 17766 times)

Watchmaker

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2019, 04:34:41 PM »
But what about my free speech?  You get to be angry (perpetually offended even) but I have to be completely cool and passive while you lose your shit over my behavior?  When do I get to lose my shit over you being an enormously excessively sensitive snowflake PUSSY?!?  *FACEPUNCH*  Life is hard.  Face facts, you are a big wimp and need to grow up.  Else, you will never be effectively an adult.  And, oh yeah, your behavior is passive-aggressive.  Somebody needs to call you people out on your bullshit already.

Life is hard. What I take away from that is that we should be kind to each other, and not make other's lives any harder than they already are.

I'm free to be a jerk. I'm free to say things that hurt other people. But I don't want to. I don't think you want to either.

If someone tells you that you hurt them, what is so hard about considering what you did and possibly doing it differently going forward? You wish we all had tougher skin, I wish we were better at owning up to the impact of our words.

ixtap

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2019, 04:43:03 PM »
19yo who fought Nazis were literally fighting for political correctness of not treating others as inferiors subject to your whims. They were trying to make the world a safe space.

Overly simplistic? Yes, because obviously many of them did need their safe spaces, ie safe from their African American, Hispanic, Southeast Asian... counterparts.

In other words, that example does not work from any angle.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 04:50:35 PM by ixtap »

BicycleB

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2019, 05:41:44 PM »
I'm not arguing with the dictionary definition of the term.  It's usage was correct.  My argument is that there are other words you can use for the same effect, and no extra effort that are less likely to cause another person pain.  My inclination would therefore be to use them.

I changed it to "exploiting" before starting this thread.  Outside of this thread, will not use the term here again.  More interested in discussing whether political correctness is starting to go too far.

I too sometimes ponder whether political correctness is starting to go too far. On the word in question, though, I feel:

2/3 that the shift to where using "rape" to mean "despoil something" is unacceptable because it trivializes the sexual meaning of rape is a good shift.

1/3 that using rape to say "despoil something - and this despoiling is so bad we should scorn the despoiler as we would scorn a rapist" is a legitimate usage that does not require trivializing rape, only lots of caring about the despoiled thing.

So on balance, I feel it's not too far in this case.

The word rape has been used to mean "to snatch, carry off, despoil" for longer than it has been used explicitly to mean to penetrate/violate a person forcibly.

Just a clarification. It's not a shift. It's the original meaning.

I meant that the shift is from the attitude that it's acceptable to use that usage, to the attitude that it's not acceptable any more. That's a shift, right?

Sorry to be unclear.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2019, 06:08:50 PM »
If it's good enough for Tony Shalhoub, it's good enough for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMLWrUBwO5c

spartana

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2019, 06:11:02 PM »
Well I guess it's OK now for me (granddaughter of a Nazi soldier) to tattoo a swastika on my arm and call myself a proud Aryan because it use to mean something different pre-1933 then it does now and all you pansies should just STFU and accept it because of it's original meaning.

Words change because their usage changed to something that caused harm. Symbols change for the same reason.  We choose not to use hateful words not because we are PC pansies, we choose not to use them because they evoke hate and  intolerance. And we want to be better people who can express ourselves without deriding or debasing others.

One

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2019, 06:25:12 PM »
I don’t think the way the op changed the statement has the same effectiveness.  I think the original way is a better description.  Raping the planet for fun and profit, vs exploiting the planet for fun and profit.



Laserjet3051

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2019, 06:35:55 PM »
Well I guess it's OK now for me (granddaughter of a Nazi soldier) to tattoo a swastika on my arm and call myself a proud Aryan because it use to mean something different pre-1933 then it does now and all you pansies should just STFU and accept it because of it's original meaning.

Words change because their usage changed to something that caused harm. Symbols change for the same reason.  We choose not to use hateful words not because we are PC pansies, we choose not to use them because they evoke hate and  intolerance. And we want to be better people who can express ourselves without deriding or debasing others.

Actually, many of my my family members were murdered by the Nazis. While I despise everything they stood for as well as the relevant symbols (e.g. swastikas), I will defend your right to wear one on your arm and tolerate your freedom to do so. So long as your freedom of expression does not extend to actionable physical duress/harm.

spartana

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2019, 06:55:08 PM »
Well I guess it's OK now for me (granddaughter of a Nazi soldier) to tattoo a swastika on my arm and call myself a proud Aryan because it use to mean something different pre-1933 then it does now and all you pansies should just STFU and accept it because of it's original meaning.

Words change because their usage changed to something that caused harm. Symbols change for the same reason.  We choose not to use hateful words not because we are PC pansies, we choose not to use them because they evoke hate and  intolerance. And we want to be better people who can express ourselves without deriding or debasing others.

Actually, many of my my family members were murdered by the Nazis. While I despise everything they stood for as well as the relevant symbols (e.g. swastikas), I will defend your right to wear one on your arm and tolerate your freedom to do so. So long as your freedom of expression does not extend to actionable physical duress/harm.
Sure people should have the freedom to express themselves verbally even if its horribly hateful to others. But those who choose to use that kind of speech like FVR shouldn't get all.whiney-pants when people ask them to change the words. Who's a little whiney snowflake now? "Mommmmm... they yelled at me and said I couldn't play with them any more for calling them twinker Nazis earth rapers and now I'm soooo hurt and offended! They're such big meanies! Sniff..."

calimom

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2019, 07:04:02 PM »
Language changes.  I still miss "gay" as in the song from South Pacific (A Wonderful Guy - "I'm as trite and as gay as a daisy in May,").  Do I still use it in that sense? No.
"Fag" - In pack up your troubles in your old kit bag there is the line "While you've a lucifer to light your fag" - "fag" has changed meaning (at least on this side of the Atlantic) and I think is now totally out for use for anything.

So all of you moaning about changes in English usage, grow up and accept that language changes.  If I can adapt at my age (this is your grandmother giving you the stink eye) you youngsters can surely manage.  And if you aren't sure, just think if Miss Manners would approve of your vocabulary choices.

Great post @RetiredAt63 . "Queer" is another word that used to have more general use in days past. "I'm feeling a bit queer today". Then it was used in a derogatory fashion: "Look at those queers holding hands in Provincetown" Then it was taken back and owned by the LGBTQ community. It's ok for my BIL and his husband to self describe as being queer, but not for others to use in in a non-complimentary fashion.

"Retarded" was at one time used to describe someone. It was then decided that "learning disabilities" was perhaps a kinder descriptive term. But it can still be used to say something along the lines of "The chemotherapy has retarded the growth of the tumor"

It's fascinating how language changes over time. It's OK to evolve with it and not feel hurt. Respect for our fellow humans goes a long way toward building a better society.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2019, 07:25:13 PM »
Well I guess it's OK now for me (granddaughter of a Nazi soldier) to tattoo a swastika on my arm and call myself a proud Aryan because it use to mean something different pre-1933 then it does now and all you pansies should just STFU and accept it because of it's original meaning.

A MAGA hat is quicker than a tattoo.

ysette9

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2019, 08:36:00 PM »
Language changes.  I still miss "gay" as in the song from South Pacific (A Wonderful Guy - "I'm as trite and as gay as a daisy in May,").  Do I still use it in that sense? No.
"Fag" - In pack up your troubles in your old kit bag there is the line "While you've a lucifer to light your fag" - "fag" has changed meaning (at least on this side of the Atlantic) and I think is now totally out for use for anything.

So all of you moaning about changes in English usage, grow up and accept that language changes.  If I can adapt at my age (this is your grandmother giving you the stink eye) you youngsters can surely manage.  And if you aren't sure, just think if Miss Manners would approve of your vocabulary choices.

My favorite English teacher in HS's first name is Gay and it totally describes her. She is always one of the happiest people I have ever met. That said, if you still like the original definition it still means that in French. :)

I like your Miss Manners reference. A good internal compass, plus I love her sense of humor.

davisgang90

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2019, 04:03:57 AM »
This is a good thread.  Unfortunately, I'm actually triggered by the word trigger, so you having the word trigger in the thread title for me to see before I've even opened the thread triggered me so hard.  Now I've typed the word trigger 5 times.

Yes, we should try to be decent folks even on the internet, but PC often goes too far and we need to be able to laugh at it sometimes.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 04:39:43 AM by davisgang90 »

BikeFanatic

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2019, 05:05:49 AM »
Quote
Sure people should have the freedom to express themselves verbally even if its horribly hateful to others. But those who choose to use that kind of speech like FVR shouldn't get all.whiney-pants when people ask them to change the words. Who's a little whiney snowflake now? "Mommmmm... they yelled at me and said I couldn't play with them any more for calling them twinker Nazis earth rapers and now I'm soooo hurt and offended! They're such big meanies! Sniff...

+1
This is the heart of the matter.

Why not just say I offended some women, and I am sorry.   I  have been on one male dominated forum where they use the term rape or gang rape to describe how they put their battery packs together, and how they raped the park driving their Ebikes around. It is insensitive and immature IMO to throw that workd out there willy nilly. Demonstrates an insensitivity to half of the population.

MasterStache

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2019, 05:14:01 AM »
Well I guess it's OK now for me (granddaughter of a Nazi soldier) to tattoo a swastika on my arm and call myself a proud Aryan because it use to mean something different pre-1933 then it does now and all you pansies should just STFU and accept it because of it's original meaning.

Words change because their usage changed to something that caused harm. Symbols change for the same reason.  We choose not to use hateful words not because we are PC pansies, we choose not to use them because they evoke hate and  intolerance. And we want to be better people who can express ourselves without deriding or debasing others.

Actually, many of my my family members were murdered by the Nazis. While I despise everything they stood for as well as the relevant symbols (e.g. swastikas), I will defend your right to wear one on your arm and tolerate your freedom to do so. So long as your freedom of expression does not extend to actionable physical duress/harm.

Well that's kind of the thing. Rarely does it stop at simply "expression." There is a lot of gray area in there. I mean how do you quantify defending the rights of Jewish people and Nazis at the same time? I am not saying you are wrong, but the waters sure get murky, especially when the symbols themselves represent genocide.

FIPurpose

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2019, 05:53:16 AM »
I'm going to take a middle road here. But first I'm going to say that @Financial.Velociraptor you are too young to be talking like this! You can't tell "back in my day" stories until you're at least 70.

There are two ways "political correctness" get used. Either as a replacement term for "politeness" or as a shaming tactic in an argument to make it appear like you've won the upper hand.

If the people in this thread you were mentioning went on to engage in your arguments or otherwise, then I would say you have a difference in what you consider "polite". And you have to consider "why does it feel like I get called out way more than when I was a kid?" Because you're on the internet, more countries and people than ever have access to the internet, and the group of people you're talking with is more diverse than your hometown or probably state. So what people consider "polite" is expanding and changing.

For the same reason when you're in another country, you wouldn't use a derogatory phrase or gesture just because you didn't grow up with that. For the same reason, when you're on the internet, you're more or less talking internationally. We are somewhat NA-centric here, but even then, the differences between states and regions of the US are huge. So when someone says, "hey, that term is really offensive". I think you should more or less take in at face value, maybe PM them and learn something.

On the other hand, if people only shame you and don't engage in your actual argument, and then continue to point out how you committed a particular "faux pas" as a way of dismissing your thoughts. THAT is "political correctness". An example of this is how Steven Crowder is losing on one of his "Change My Mind" segments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuNg6oNZbmI. Despite the other guy admitting his wrong and backing out, Steven continues to bring up the fact that this guy used a term in an offensive way. Ie. "Remember this guy isn't PC. He used autistic in a colloquial fashion, so I therefor dismiss all his arguments."

Don't complain about "politeness". Everyone is different and finding places where different people have different ideas can be frustrating. But that doesn't make it illegitimate or PC.

If they were using it as a shame tactic to appear to win an argument, be my guest at complaining about PCness.

FIPurpose

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2019, 05:59:30 AM »
Also I think it's silly when people use the phrase "PC culture" as if this is a thing that only one side of the debate does. Politically in the US, both conservatives and liberals patrol and enforce their social boundaries and dismiss people who don't use their language. This isn't new. It's just another phrase conservative talk-heads use to create the illusion that their side is a purely rational or logical, and it's only the "other side" that commits all these logical fallacies. It feeds into the narrative that liberals are liberal because of emotion and politeness and conservatives are conservative because they're older, wiser, and "just using logic".

I'm not saying anyone in this thread was using it that way. I didn't read everyone's comment. But I think it's a silly phrase, and it needs to go away.

driftwood

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2019, 09:13:03 AM »
Quote
Sure people should have the freedom to express themselves verbally even if its horribly hateful to others. But those who choose to use that kind of speech like FVR shouldn't get all.whiney-pants when people ask them to change the words. Who's a little whiney snowflake now? "Mommmmm... they yelled at me and said I couldn't play with them any more for calling them twinker Nazis earth rapers and now I'm soooo hurt and offended! They're such big meanies! Sniff...

+1
This is the heart of the matter.

Why not just say I offended some women, and I am sorry.   I  have been on one male dominated forum where they use the term rape or gang rape to describe how they put their battery packs together, and how they raped the park driving their Ebikes around. It is insensitive and immature IMO to throw that workd out there willy nilly. Demonstrates an insensitivity to half of the population.

Demonstrates an insensitivity to everyone negatively affected by rape... not sure the stats on that, but it's not limited to any specific gender.

SimpleCycle

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2019, 09:54:03 AM »
I think people don't understand what triggering really means.  Trigger is in quotes in the subject of this post, which shows a very real disconnect from the impact ones words can have.

For people who have been sexually assaulted, the after effects can include flashbacks, suicidal feelings, the urge to self-harm, and any number of extremely unpleasant and distressed things related to reliving the assault.  Your use of the word "rape" can bring all that up for someone, causing them very real distress and possibly bodily harm.  Do you really want to fight for your right to harm someone rather than bring basic human decency to your conversation?

I've lived with suicidal thoughts from depression for most of my life.  They are triggered by many things, but specific discussion of suicide is one of those things, and I really appreciate people who think to put a little warning ahead of such content.  I don't think of myself as a wimp or a special snowflake, having survived a brain that has been trying to kill me for three decades.  It's just a courtesy that is appreciated, and shows people to be a little more human for thinking of the effects their words have on others.

ketchup

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2019, 09:59:02 AM »
Also I think it's silly when people use the phrase "PC culture" as if this is a thing that only one side of the debate does. Politically in the US, both conservatives and liberals patrol and enforce their social boundaries and dismiss people who don't use their language. This isn't new. It's just another phrase conservative talk-heads use to create the illusion that their side is a purely rational or logical, and it's only the "other side" that commits all these logical fallacies. It feeds into the narrative that liberals are liberal because of emotion and politeness and conservatives are conservative because they're older, wiser, and "just using logic".

I'm not saying anyone in this thread was using it that way. I didn't read everyone's comment. But I think it's a silly phrase, and it needs to go away.
I would definitely agree that it's not just "liberals" that can try to shove PCness down our throats (can't help myself here).  A few years ago on Easter I casually and without thought used the phrase "happy zombie Jesus day" somewhere that I definitely should not have.

No matter who you are, what your opinions are, and what offends you, it's good to know how to read the room.

Kris

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2019, 10:05:26 AM »
Also I think it's silly when people use the phrase "PC culture" as if this is a thing that only one side of the debate does. Politically in the US, both conservatives and liberals patrol and enforce their social boundaries and dismiss people who don't use their language. This isn't new. It's just another phrase conservative talk-heads use to create the illusion that their side is a purely rational or logical, and it's only the "other side" that commits all these logical fallacies. It feeds into the narrative that liberals are liberal because of emotion and politeness and conservatives are conservative because they're older, wiser, and "just using logic".

I'm not saying anyone in this thread was using it that way. I didn't read everyone's comment. But I think it's a silly phrase, and it needs to go away.
I would definitely agree that it's not just "liberals" that can try to shove PCness down our throats (can't help myself here).  A few years ago on Easter I casually and without thought used the phrase "happy zombie Jesus day" somewhere that I definitely should not have.

No matter who you are, what your opinions are, and what offends you, it's good to know how to read the room.

Yeah... like when conservatives lost their minds a couple of weeks ago when Obama tweeted about the tragedy in Sri Lanka and the attacks on "Easter worshipers." You would have thought he'd posted a picture of himself biting the head off a good Christian baby.

The sad part is, there are a lot of political forces at work trying to manufacture outrage out of terms -- and it often works like a charm. And in part because of that, there's a lot of ridicule to go around about PCness, which tends to derail the more productive conversations about language and the harm it can sometimes do.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:13:25 AM by Kris »

ketchup

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2019, 10:25:55 AM »
Also I think it's silly when people use the phrase "PC culture" as if this is a thing that only one side of the debate does. Politically in the US, both conservatives and liberals patrol and enforce their social boundaries and dismiss people who don't use their language. This isn't new. It's just another phrase conservative talk-heads use to create the illusion that their side is a purely rational or logical, and it's only the "other side" that commits all these logical fallacies. It feeds into the narrative that liberals are liberal because of emotion and politeness and conservatives are conservative because they're older, wiser, and "just using logic".

I'm not saying anyone in this thread was using it that way. I didn't read everyone's comment. But I think it's a silly phrase, and it needs to go away.
I would definitely agree that it's not just "liberals" that can try to shove PCness down our throats (can't help myself here).  A few years ago on Easter I casually and without thought used the phrase "happy zombie Jesus day" somewhere that I definitely should not have.

No matter who you are, what your opinions are, and what offends you, it's good to know how to read the room.

Yeah... like when conservatives lost their minds a couple of weeks ago when Obama tweeted about the tragedy in Sri Lanka and the attacks on "Easter worshipers." You would have thought he'd posted a picture of himself biting the head off a good Christian baby.

The sad part is, there are a lot of political forces at work trying to manufacture outrage out of terms -- and it often works like a charm. And in part because of that, there's a lot of ridicule to go around about PCness, which tends to derail the more productive conversations about language and the harm it can sometimes do.
Oh my god, you just sent me down an awful Google rabbit hole...  It'd almost be funny if it wasn't so gross and tragedy-sideshowing.  The victims were worshiping.  It was Easter.  Nobody argues those two facts but you combine them in the wrong way and everyone loses their shit.

Kris

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2019, 10:55:03 AM »
Also I think it's silly when people use the phrase "PC culture" as if this is a thing that only one side of the debate does. Politically in the US, both conservatives and liberals patrol and enforce their social boundaries and dismiss people who don't use their language. This isn't new. It's just another phrase conservative talk-heads use to create the illusion that their side is a purely rational or logical, and it's only the "other side" that commits all these logical fallacies. It feeds into the narrative that liberals are liberal because of emotion and politeness and conservatives are conservative because they're older, wiser, and "just using logic".

I'm not saying anyone in this thread was using it that way. I didn't read everyone's comment. But I think it's a silly phrase, and it needs to go away.
I would definitely agree that it's not just "liberals" that can try to shove PCness down our throats (can't help myself here).  A few years ago on Easter I casually and without thought used the phrase "happy zombie Jesus day" somewhere that I definitely should not have.

No matter who you are, what your opinions are, and what offends you, it's good to know how to read the room.

Yeah... like when conservatives lost their minds a couple of weeks ago when Obama tweeted about the tragedy in Sri Lanka and the attacks on "Easter worshipers." You would have thought he'd posted a picture of himself biting the head off a good Christian baby.

The sad part is, there are a lot of political forces at work trying to manufacture outrage out of terms -- and it often works like a charm. And in part because of that, there's a lot of ridicule to go around about PCness, which tends to derail the more productive conversations about language and the harm it can sometimes do.
Oh my god, you just sent me down an awful Google rabbit hole...  It'd almost be funny if it wasn't so gross and tragedy-sideshowing.  The victims were worshiping.  It was Easter.  Nobody argues those two facts but you combine them in the wrong way and everyone loses their shit.

Sorry. Yeah, it was just... unfreakingbelievable. Even for that crowd.

scottish

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2019, 07:27:54 PM »
My trigger word is "climate denier".   I get annoyed at being called a climate denier.   For example:

"The science is settled!   Climate change is real."

"Ok, but the science isn't settled.   It continues to evolve as we learn more."

"Climate denier!"

MasterStache

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2019, 05:37:58 AM »
My trigger word is "climate denier".   I get annoyed at being called a climate denier.   For example:

"The science is settled!   Climate change is real."

"Ok, but the science isn't settled.   It continues to evolve as we learn more."

"Climate denier!"

I think the "science is settled" applies to the fact that the climate is indeed changing and man made global warming is playing a big role in that change. I've personally never seen that phrase used to imply we know everything about the climate and there is no need to study it anymore.   

Cassie

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2019, 11:16:19 AM »
Yes RE63 and Calimom I am older and remember a different meaning of those words. Why hurt people instead of just being kind?  Yes people can be too sensitive but rape leaves people with life long trauma. Actually the word that replaces retarded is intellectually disabled.

Laserjet3051

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2019, 11:26:51 AM »
Yes RE63 and Calimom I am older and remember a different meaning of those words. Why hurt people instead of just being kind?  Yes people can be too sensitive but rape leaves people with life long trauma. Actually the word that replaces retarded is intellectually disabled.

Sounds like I never received the memo. I thought the word police preferred "handi-capable?"

Malkynn

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2019, 12:14:18 PM »
Yes RE63 and Calimom I am older and remember a different meaning of those words. Why hurt people instead of just being kind?  Yes people can be too sensitive but rape leaves people with life long trauma. Actually the word that replaces retarded is intellectually disabled.

Sounds like I never received the memo. I thought the word police preferred "handi-capable?"

Now, if you are a person with a handicap, this is a hilarious post.

Meanwhile, if you are someone who has spent little to no time with handicapped people and cannot speak to the experience and culture of the differently abled, then this post is just shitty and mean.

Context matters.

Laserjet3051

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2019, 01:00:13 PM »
Yes RE63 and Calimom I am older and remember a different meaning of those words. Why hurt people instead of just being kind?  Yes people can be too sensitive but rape leaves people with life long trauma. Actually the word that replaces retarded is intellectually disabled.

Sounds like I never received the memo. I thought the word police preferred "handi-capable?"

Now, if you are a person with a handicap, this is a hilarious post.

Meanwhile, if you are someone who has spent little to no time with handicapped people and cannot speak to the experience and culture of the differently abled, then this post is just shitty and mean.

Context matters.

I personally am not aware of any mental of physical handicaps that I may have, though have spent plenty of time over the years with family and friends who do have physical and/or cognitive handicaps. In your mind does this exonerate me from attack? Actually, I dont really care, I come from a George Carlin school of thought when it comes to use of language. Your right; context (and more specifically, INTENT) matters.

RetiredAt63

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2019, 01:23:06 PM »
Your right; context (and more specifically, INTENT) matters.

But intent is not out in the open, it is in the head, and someone can say they didn't intend something after the fact.

Malkynn

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2019, 01:40:21 PM »
Yes RE63 and Calimom I am older and remember a different meaning of those words. Why hurt people instead of just being kind?  Yes people can be too sensitive but rape leaves people with life long trauma. Actually the word that replaces retarded is intellectually disabled.

Sounds like I never received the memo. I thought the word police preferred "handi-capable?"

Now, if you are a person with a handicap, this is a hilarious post.

Meanwhile, if you are someone who has spent little to no time with handicapped people and cannot speak to the experience and culture of the differently abled, then this post is just shitty and mean.

Context matters.

I personally am not aware of any mental of physical handicaps that I may have, though have spent plenty of time over the years with family and friends who do have physical and/or cognitive handicaps. In your mind does this exonerate me from attack? Actually, I dont really care, I come from a George Carlin school of thought when it comes to use of language. Your right; context (and more specifically, INTENT) matters.

I wasn't criticizing you.
I was pointing out that context, and yes intent, matters. I'm not about to hold myself as judge and jury of what you are allowed to say.

As for whether or not anything ever exonerates you from "attack" is a whole other issue. I don't believe anyone is ever above criticism, but I also don't think of criticism as an attack to be avoided either.

Laserjet3051

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2019, 02:26:09 PM »
Yes RE63 and Calimom I am older and remember a different meaning of those words. Why hurt people instead of just being kind?  Yes people can be too sensitive but rape leaves people with life long trauma. Actually the word that replaces retarded is intellectually disabled.

Sounds like I never received the memo. I thought the word police preferred "handi-capable?"

Now, if you are a person with a handicap, this is a hilarious post.

Meanwhile, if you are someone who has spent little to no time with handicapped people and cannot speak to the experience and culture of the differently abled, then this post is just shitty and mean.

Context matters.

I personally am not aware of any mental of physical handicaps that I may have, though have spent plenty of time over the years with family and friends who do have physical and/or cognitive handicaps. In your mind does this exonerate me from attack? Actually, I dont really care, I come from a George Carlin school of thought when it comes to use of language. Your right; context (and more specifically, INTENT) matters.

I wasn't criticizing you.
I was pointing out that context, and yes intent, matters. I'm not about to hold myself as judge and jury of what you are allowed to say.

As for whether or not anything ever exonerates you from "attack" is a whole other issue. I don't believe anyone is ever above criticism, but I also don't think of criticism as an attack to be avoided either.

Fair points.

scottish

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2019, 02:29:10 PM »
My trigger word is "climate denier".   I get annoyed at being called a climate denier.   For example:

"The science is settled!   Climate change is real."

"Ok, but the science isn't settled.   It continues to evolve as we learn more."

"Climate denier!"

I think the "science is settled" applies to the fact that the climate is indeed changing and man made global warming is playing a big role in that change. I've personally never seen that phrase used to imply we know everything about the climate and there is no need to study it anymore.

That's another trigger.   Replacing accurate communications with populist slogans.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2019, 02:31:03 PM »
Just heard that it is being recommended at a medical conference not to use the term "blind peer review".  It is able-ist.  Presumably, double-blind studies are able-ist squared.  Really think this thing is going to far.  Scientist haven't been using those terms for centuries with the intent of jeering at the blind...

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2019, 03:42:17 PM »
The unspoken communication of people posting to correct you on a word or a phrase is that you are some sort of troglodyte who is barely tolerable.  While they may be right with the correction, the pompous arrogance of such an inference will always grate.  To me it is eerily too similar to Christian moralizers of past decades that used to dominate political and religious discourse (though mostly in letters to the editor and the pulpit).  “But we’re defending equality and social justice” they’ll say.  But I see the same shady tactics.  Often used against people who would sympathize if they just had a sociology class in the last 10 years. 

I also see the phenomenon of “virtue signaling” (now there’s a trigger phrase!) among the left where they constantly assert how supportive they are of the left’s social causes.  Even in circles where they’re only among allies and sympathizers.  My theory is that if they don’t they’ll become suspect.  And if you become too suspect your allies and sympathizers will fucking eat you alive..  They’ll definitely ostracize you - another tactic Christian moral purists used to do.  So basically a culture with norms enforced via fear.  No member is safe either.  You are not black, gay, female, atheist or immigrant enough to be declared not so (or dismissed as internalizing oppression) if you dispute the status quo.

As an added bonus, you get the reverse psychology that happens when self proclaimed authorities decree something “wrong” and “forbidden” and in doing so endow it with a mystique that attracts rather than repels.  And the ill will engendered by enforcing it alienates the subject from that authority and encourages disobedience.  Even a hint of hypocrisy exacerbates the process. The Marine who raises his son to be a Marine winds up father to a gay artist in San Francisco.  Fundamentalist parents raise militant atheists or even Satanists.  Militant atheists raise Christians.

I should note that I’m harsh on the far left here because political correctness is a topic referencing them.  However, the far right is where the surviving Christian moral purist retreated to.  And have the benefit of harboring extreme racists and Nazis.  Nothing wrong with extreme racism and Nazism!  Except slavery, that bit of conflict between 1939-45 and 8 million people sent up a chimney, of course.  Plus the far right mimics the far left in a host of attitudes and tactics to include its own form of virtue signaling. 

What should be done?  Corrections should still be made.  But they should be phrased as politely as possible, without accusation, and under the assumption the other person just doesn’t know.  They might not.  A lot of the far left’s jargon and outlook was framed in the past five years in sociology classes 99% of the world never heard of let alone attended and only slightly transmitted via FB echo chambers.  The assumption bit I suspect is key.  I think it’s possible to effect people by the assumptions you have of them.  Even over the Internet.  (I wrote a post on that a month or so ago but it excited no interest.)

MrDelane

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2019, 06:26:30 PM »
We all seem to suffer from a goldilocks syndrome when it comes to societal norms.

Every generation seems to feel the previous one was too conservative, the next one is too liberal and their own generation somehow got it just right.

Malkynn

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2019, 06:41:39 PM »
We all seem to suffer from a goldilocks syndrome when it comes to societal norms.

Every generation seems to feel the previous one was too conservative, the next one is too liberal and their own generation somehow got it just right.

I often say to my DH: "I can't wait until I turn into a righteously indignant old lady who thinks that young people have lost their minds, because it will finally mean that society has progressed beyond my personal values."

I truly can't wait to feel behind social progress.
There's no fucking way that my generation has it right.

MrDelane

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2019, 06:48:55 PM »
We all seem to suffer from a goldilocks syndrome when it comes to societal norms.

Every generation seems to feel the previous one was too conservative, the next one is too liberal and their own generation somehow got it just right.

I often say to my DH: "I can't wait until I turn into a righteously indignant old lady who thinks that young people have lost their minds, because it will finally mean that society has progressed beyond my personal values."

I truly can't wait to feel behind social progress.
There's no fucking way that my generation has it right.

HA.  Fair enough. :)
I suppose I meant my comment in a very general sense - obviously we don't all feel our generation got it right, given how much debate there is within each generation.

But there does seem to be a general trend of "our parents were too conservative" and "kids today are nuts," which assumes that our own vantage point is the 'average' or 'reasonable' position.

Malkynn

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2019, 07:10:07 PM »
We all seem to suffer from a goldilocks syndrome when it comes to societal norms.

Every generation seems to feel the previous one was too conservative, the next one is too liberal and their own generation somehow got it just right.

I often say to my DH: "I can't wait until I turn into a righteously indignant old lady who thinks that young people have lost their minds, because it will finally mean that society has progressed beyond my personal values."

I truly can't wait to feel behind social progress.
There's no fucking way that my generation has it right.

HA.  Fair enough. :)
I suppose I meant my comment in a very general sense - obviously we don't all feel our generation got it right, given how much debate there is within each generation.

But there does seem to be a general trend of "our parents were too conservative" and "kids today are nuts," which assumes that our own vantage point is the 'average' or 'reasonable' position.

I was agreeing with you

Laserjet3051

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2019, 09:25:53 PM »
Just heard that it is being recommended at a medical conference not to use the term "blind peer review".  It is able-ist.  Presumably, double-blind studies are able-ist squared.  Really think this thing is going to far.  Scientist haven't been using those terms for centuries with the intent of jeering at the blind...

inside the scientific world there is much angst and disapproval over conducting blinded, or double-blinded preclinical/clinical studies. The outrage is over the top. I'm not exactly sure what I'
m supposed to call the studies I conduct.

RetiredAt63

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2019, 05:08:20 AM »
I missed this - "double blind study " is not acceptable terminology?

We are going to lose a lot of metaphors if people start taking the impersonal to be personal.  I won't have a leg to stand on arguing for "double-blind" studies.

Laserjet3051

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #90 on: May 06, 2019, 09:07:16 AM »
I missed this - "double blind study " is not acceptable terminology?

We are going to lose a lot of metaphors if people start taking the impersonal to be personal.  I won't have a leg to stand on arguing for "double-blind" studies.

I've personally been instructed not to use this term for blinded preclinical studies I conduct or blinded/double-blinded clinical studies I report on. No shit.

Villanelle

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #91 on: May 06, 2019, 09:29:00 AM »
I missed this - "double blind study " is not acceptable terminology?

We are going to lose a lot of metaphors if people start taking the impersonal to be personal.  I won't have a leg to stand on arguing for "double-blind" studies.

Please be more careful with your choice of metaphors.  Some people literally only have one leg to stand on. 

Watchmaker

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #92 on: May 06, 2019, 09:30:53 AM »
I missed this - "double blind study " is not acceptable terminology?

We are going to lose a lot of metaphors if people start taking the impersonal to be personal.  I won't have a leg to stand on arguing for "double-blind" studies.

I've personally been instructed not to use this term for blinded preclinical studies I conduct or blinded/double-blinded clinical studies I report on. No shit.

I have some concerns that sensitivity to phrases like this could lead to a reduced use of metaphor and consequentially a loss of vibrancy, color, and beauty in the language. I think this is not a great example to use though, because it's a purely functional term. Replacing it with something like 'dual-veiled' or 'double-concealed' study would have zero impact on anyone.

I'm also not convinced that my worry is valid--either that the reduced use of metaphor would happen, or that losing those metaphors would negatively impact the language. That's just my layperson's concern.

I think it's also important to remember that a changing language isn't something that just happens, it's something we as a society do. If the language changes, it's because people find value in the new forms, even if you (or I) do not.


Malkynn

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #93 on: May 06, 2019, 09:49:30 AM »
I missed this - "double blind study " is not acceptable terminology?

We are going to lose a lot of metaphors if people start taking the impersonal to be personal.  I won't have a leg to stand on arguing for "double-blind" studies.

I've personally been instructed not to use this term for blinded preclinical studies I conduct or blinded/double-blinded clinical studies I report on. No shit.

I have some concerns that sensitivity to phrases like this could lead to a reduced use of metaphor and consequentially a loss of vibrancy, color, and beauty in the language. I think this is not a great example to use though, because it's a purely functional term. Replacing it with something like 'dual-veiled' or 'double-concealed' study would have zero impact on anyone.

I'm also not convinced that my worry is valid--either that the reduced use of metaphor would happen, or that losing those metaphors would negatively impact the language. That's just my layperson's concern.

I think it's also important to remember that a changing language isn't something that just happens, it's something we as a society do. If the language changes, it's because people find value in the new forms, even if you (or I) do not.

I'm literally not worried about this at all. Language and creativity are so robust that it will adapt new and clever ways to stay vibrant and expressive.

These terms exist because in the past they were benign. If they become not benign, new terms will evolve. It's just uncomfortable for those who are used to things being benign to have them not be benign anymore, and then they extrapolate that to some collapse of language or truth, which is really a non issue because the next generation will just make up new language if they need to.

So what if "double blind" becomes an obsolete term? As a former scientist, I can't imagine being attached to the formerly utterly benign terminology. If it was so utterly benign, then who cares if it changes?? So what if "double unknown"/"double obfuscated"/"double shielded"/"double whatever" becomes the norm? Are any scientists injured?? Is anybody's life impacted beyond the very brief inconvenience of having to remember to change terminology??

I'm not commenting on whether or not it should or should not be changed, that's not my privilege to do.
I'm just commenting on how much of a non issue it would be for scientists to have this term changed if it were determined to be inappropriate for whatever reason. It's not a crazy, cumbersome change to make if necessary.

BicycleB

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #94 on: May 06, 2019, 01:03:46 PM »
Double shielded sounds good!

Another alternative: double buffered.

@Laserjet3051, any of the above options work for you?

merula

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #95 on: May 06, 2019, 01:05:25 PM »
The unspoken communication of people posting to correct you on a word or a phrase is that you are some sort of troglodyte who is barely tolerable.  While they may be right with the correction, the pompous arrogance of such an inference will always grate.  To me it is eerily too similar to Christian moralizers of past decades that used to dominate political and religious discourse (though mostly in letters to the editor and the pulpit).  “But we’re defending equality and social justice” they’ll say.  But I see the same shady tactics.  Often used against people who would sympathize if they just had a sociology class in the last 10 years. 

I also see the phenomenon of “virtue signaling” (now there’s a trigger phrase!) among the left where they constantly assert how supportive they are of the left’s social causes.  Even in circles where they’re only among allies and sympathizers.  My theory is that if they don’t they’ll become suspect.  And if you become too suspect your allies and sympathizers will fucking eat you alive..  They’ll definitely ostracize you - another tactic Christian moral purists used to do.  So basically a culture with norms enforced via fear.  No member is safe either.  You are not black, gay, female, atheist or immigrant enough to be declared not so (or dismissed as internalizing oppression) if you dispute the status quo.

As an added bonus, you get the reverse psychology that happens when self proclaimed authorities decree something “wrong” and “forbidden” and in doing so endow it with a mystique that attracts rather than repels.  And the ill will engendered by enforcing it alienates the subject from that authority and encourages disobedience.  Even a hint of hypocrisy exacerbates the process. The Marine who raises his son to be a Marine winds up father to a gay artist in San Francisco.  Fundamentalist parents raise militant atheists or even Satanists.  Militant atheists raise Christians.

I should note that I’m harsh on the far left here because political correctness is a topic referencing them.  However, the far right is where the surviving Christian moral purist retreated to.  And have the benefit of harboring extreme racists and Nazis.  Nothing wrong with extreme racism and Nazism!  Except slavery, that bit of conflict between 1939-45 and 8 million people sent up a chimney, of course.  Plus the far right mimics the far left in a host of attitudes and tactics to include its own form of virtue signaling. 

What should be done?  Corrections should still be made.  But they should be phrased as politely as possible, without accusation, and under the assumption the other person just doesn’t know.  They might not.  A lot of the far left’s jargon and outlook was framed in the past five years in sociology classes 99% of the world never heard of let alone attended and only slightly transmitted via FB echo chambers.  The assumption bit I suspect is key.  I think it’s possible to effect people by the assumptions you have of them.  Even over the Internet.  (I wrote a post on that a month or so ago but it excited no interest.)

This is extremely well put. Based on your description of your politics, you and I probably couldn't find much else to agree on, but I thoroughly appreciate the thought put into this.

I think you're particularly correct on the virtue-signalling aspect of avoiding trigger words. If I say LGBT and you say LGBTQIAA, you are signaling that you are more up on inclusive language than I am. If I say black and you say Black and Financial.Veliciraptor says African American, we're all saying something about our politics. (Same concept, though obviously different politics, with white/White/Aryan.)

This hits home for me with disability wording. My husband describes himself as either "disabled" or "cripple". (The latter is in his Twitter bio; though not everyone likes it and it's a "know your audience" sort of thing.) He's fine with "handicapped", he knows people who prefer that or "differently abled". But he's never met anyone who preferred "diffabled", "handicapable" or "disAbled".

At some level these things becomes offensive in the implication that the group is so fragile that they can't deal with normal words.

Watchmaker

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2019, 02:37:43 PM »
This hits home for me with disability wording. My husband describes himself as either "disabled" or "cripple". (The latter is in his Twitter bio; though not everyone likes it and it's a "know your audience" sort of thing.) He's fine with "handicapped", he knows people who prefer that or "differently abled". But he's never met anyone who preferred "diffabled", "handicapable" or "disAbled".

At some level these things becomes offensive in the implication that the group is so fragile that they can't deal with normal words.

It's (all) context.

If I, an able-bodied person, decide it should be Alternatively Abled rather than disabled, handicapped, or whatever-- that sure sounds condescending. But if the language choice is coming from the group itself, what good reason do the rest of us have for ignoring them? Even if not everyone in some group agrees on preferred language, or if it keeps changing every generation, how hard is it to do our best to accommodate?

I also see the phenomenon of “virtue signaling” (now there’s a trigger phrase!) among the left where they constantly assert how supportive they are of the left’s social causes.  Even in circles where they’re only among allies and sympathizers.  My theory is that if they don’t they’ll become suspect.  And if you become too suspect your allies and sympathizers will fucking eat you alive..

I've heard this a lot, but it hasn't been my experience. And I'm a white male who happens to move in some circles where I hold the most centrists positions (everyone else being to the left of me), so if someone was going to get eaten alive, I would think I'd be a good candidate. But my experience is that people have been forgiving, understanding, and kind. On the occasions I've been corrected (say, for not using their preferred pronoun), the other person has usually handled it with grace.

I'm not saying the conditions you describe don't exist, I'm just not at all certain that they are really that common.

RetiredAt63

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2019, 02:47:21 PM »
I missed this - "double blind study " is not acceptable terminology?

We are going to lose a lot of metaphors if people start taking the impersonal to be personal.  I won't have a leg to stand on arguing for "double-blind" studies.

Please be more careful with your choice of metaphors.  Some people literally only have one leg to stand on.

I chose that metaphor specifically to see if someone would notice it.

Cromacster

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2019, 03:01:51 PM »
So I probably shouldn't teach my nephew one of my favourite childhood games "smear the queer"?  Although I think the kids now call it "kill the carrier".  So violent these days.

FIREstache

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Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2019, 03:46:42 PM »

The context of rape was many times worse in this thread despite a negative response, and it stood there.  The OPs usage was quite fair by comparison.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/wealthy-people-are-you-%27out%27/50/