Author Topic: "Trigger" words  (Read 13593 times)

CindyBS

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2019, 04:42:10 PM »
I often wonder if people who are outraged by political correctness also find the following things ridiculous:

"unborn" to mean a fetus (by that logic, anyone alive is "undead")
insisting people say "Merry Christmas" regardless of if they celebrate
"The War on Christmas"
"Pro-life" to mean against abortion - even though it is really pro-birth, generally at any cost
"religious freedom" as a euphemism for discrimination 
"family values" which really only means 1 type of family (hetero, christian, etc.).

And if you go back a few years  - "job creators" to mean rich people


Because, honestly, the most snowflake-y thing I have heard in my life is the people who are up in arms about Christmas and act like society forces them to worship in secret and hide any celebration.  The holiday is literally everywhere from Nov.-Jan., all government buildings and public places have decorations, it is a government holiday despite being a religious holiday (which other religions do not get their holidays off - Eid or Rosh Hashannah for example). 


Case in point - the right wingers who were up in arms about a GD cup from Starbucks because it wasn't "Christmas-y" enough.   WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!!!


Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2587
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2019, 06:15:27 PM »
I missed this - "double blind study " is not acceptable terminology?

We are going to lose a lot of metaphors if people start taking the impersonal to be personal.  I won't have a leg to stand on arguing for "double-blind" studies.

Please be more careful with your choice of metaphors.  Some people literally only have one leg to stand on.

I chose that metaphor specifically to see if someone would notice it.

I figured as much, given the bit about losing metaphors.  I decided to take the bait!

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2587
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2019, 06:24:49 PM »
So are people supposed to never be hurt, offended, uncomfortable with anything?  Or when they are those things are they supposed to STFU about it, never letting the speaker know that something s/he said offended them, and quite possibly offends others as well?  I'm trying to figure out what it is those who are "triggered by triggers" want?

 I used to use the word "gypped".  I honestly had no idea it was a slur.  I thought it was a benign word that meant "cheated".  Then it was pointed out to me that it's a slur based on "gypsy".  Once I knew, I stopped using it, both because it was offensive to others, and because I didn't want to come off as someone who used a word that was offensive to others.  Had it not been brought to my attention, I'd still be using it.

And I didn't find it much of a hardship to instead say that I was cheated or ripped off.  How hard is it to use a different word?  The English language is pretty damn robust.  So if I have a choice between a word that offends  a fair number of people and a word that doesn't, I'll choose the latter.  I can't imagine not making the choice.  No skin off my nose.  (Apologies to those with facial skin conditions!).  It makes zero difference in my every day, and yet to someone of "gypsy" (I know, not the preferred term) heritage, it may make a huge difference.  To me, that's basic decency.  And as such, I want to know, in a polite, gentle way, when I've stepped into hurtful territory so I can make informed decisions.

FV, you were free to leave the word, and are free to keep using it.  But at least now, because it was pointed out to you, you can make an educated decision about it because you know how that word is experienced by many other people.  Frankly, I can't comprehend knowing and deciding to continue on, but even if that's your decision, it seems to me that someone pointing it out has done you a favor because your choice to use (or not) the word is not more informed. 

But I'm sorry that the experience triggered you.


FIPurpose

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2019, 07:56:28 PM »
I often wonder if people who are outraged by political correctness also find the following things ridiculous:

"unborn" to mean a fetus (by that logic, anyone alive is "undead")
insisting people say "Merry Christmas" regardless of if they celebrate
"The War on Christmas"
"Pro-life" to mean against abortion - even though it is really pro-birth, generally at any cost
"religious freedom" as a euphemism for discrimination 
"family values" which really only means 1 type of family (hetero, christian, etc.).

And if you go back a few years  - "job creators" to mean rich people


Because, honestly, the most snowflake-y thing I have heard in my life is the people who are up in arms about Christmas and act like society forces them to worship in secret and hide any celebration.  The holiday is literally everywhere from Nov.-Jan., all government buildings and public places have decorations, it is a government holiday despite being a religious holiday (which other religions do not get their holidays off - Eid or Rosh Hashannah for example). 


Case in point - the right wingers who were up in arms about a GD cup from Starbucks because it wasn't "Christmas-y" enough.   WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!!!

What? didn't you see other people on this thread talking about how conservatives only do this because they're mimicking liberals. We'll definitely just keep up the talking point that this all because of liberals.

Blah blah college campuses blah blah people turn conservative as they age. Something something trickle down.

There you go. Now I can pretend like I thought through these positions and added to the conversation instead of just parroting Rush Limbaugh from 30 years ago.

spartana

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Retired at 42
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #104 on: May 07, 2019, 07:54:52 AM »
So are people supposed to never be hurt, offended, uncomfortable with anything?  Or when they are those things are they supposed to STFU about it, never letting the speaker know that something s/he said offended them, and quite possibly offends others as well?  I'm trying to figure out what it is those who are "triggered by triggers" want?

 I used to use the word "gypped".  I honestly had no idea it was a slur.  I thought it was a benign word that meant "cheated".  Then it was pointed out to me that it's a slur based on "gypsy".  Once I knew, I stopped using it, both because it was offensive to others, and because I didn't want to come off as someone who used a word that was offensive to others.  Had it not been brought to my attention, I'd still be using it.

And I didn't find it much of a hardship to instead say that I was cheated or ripped off.  How hard is it to use a different word?  The English language is pretty damn robust.  So if I have a choice between a word that offends  a fair number of people and a word that doesn't, I'll choose the latter.  I can't imagine not making the choice.  No skin off my nose.  (Apologies to those with facial skin conditions!).  It makes zero difference in my every day, and yet to someone of "gypsy" (I know, not the preferred term) heritage, it may make a huge difference.  To me, that's basic decency.  And as such, I want to know, in a polite, gentle way, when I've stepped into hurtful territory so I can make informed decisions.

FV, you were free to leave the word, and are free to keep using it.  But at least now, because it was pointed out to you, you can make an educated decision about it because you know how that word is experienced by many other people.  Frankly, I can't comprehend knowing and deciding to continue on, but even if that's your decision, it seems to me that someone pointing it out has done you a favor because your choice to use (or not) the word is not more informed. 

But I'm sorry that the experience triggered you.
Well you could have Jewed down the seller and then you wouldn't have been gypped.

So many words out there that are offensive to a large number of people and carry and reinforce negative sterotypes that could easily be replaced with neutral inoffensive words.

EricL

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #105 on: May 07, 2019, 06:18:20 PM »
Continuing on, I used to get offended at special snowflakes that got offended by everything.  My philosophy: "The world is not mother fucking fair and does not give a shit about your feelings, your safe spaces, etc.  You are not entitled to go about your life unoffended from time to time." 

That said, I've pondered the "world is not mother fucking fair" premise of that philosophy.  In a fair world these snowflakes wouldn't exist - nor would many other objectionable people and things.   So I realized the world is not mother fucking fair and does not give a shit about my feelings about the too easily offended and their temper tantrums.  I'm not entitled to not run into those types of people from time to time.  This freed me of the vexation I used to feel about them and they from my knee jerk impulse to troll them in response.  Plus I've come to suspect there's more on a personal, psychological level going on for such people than mere background Trumptardation.

It's similar to when I found out the cabin pressure on airplanes during takeoff and landing often caused babies, sensitive to that, feel like someone trying to pry their brain their ears out ice picks.  Suddenly the screaming just became unavoidable background noise akin to the jet engines and a reason for sympathy.  Instead of a judgement on parenting skills, airline cabin space, and my bad luck in the roulette wheel of airline seating. 

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3575
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #106 on: May 07, 2019, 06:30:59 PM »
I also see the phenomenon of “virtue signaling” (now there’s a trigger phrase!) among the left where they constantly assert how supportive they are of the left’s social causes.  Even in circles where they’re only among allies and sympathizers.  My theory is that if they don’t they’ll become suspect.  And if you become too suspect your allies and sympathizers will fucking eat you alive..  They’ll definitely ostracize you - another tactic Christian moral purists used to do.  So basically a culture with norms enforced via fear.  No member is safe either.  You are not black, gay, female, atheist or immigrant enough to be declared not so (or dismissed as internalizing oppression) if you dispute the status quo.

This is extremely well put. Based on your description of your politics, you and I probably couldn't find much else to agree on, but I thoroughly appreciate the thought put into this.

I think you're particularly correct on the virtue-signalling aspect of avoiding trigger words. If I say LGBT and you say LGBTQIAA, you are signaling that you are more up on inclusive language than I am. If I say black and you say Black and Financial.Veliciraptor says African American, we're all saying something about our politics. (Same concept, though obviously different politics, with white/White/Aryan.)

Just want to chime in as a 3rd voice on this point. There is a surprising amount of fear in making sure you're signaling the right things and not signaling the wrong things in your choice of language (and also positions). And like EricL, I have definitely seen how rapidly folks will turn on a person once you're suspected of something that would separate you out from the in-group. For those who are interested, I highly recommend the episode of Invisibilia on the rise of ostracism as a method groups use to enforce their own social norms in the USA today. A lot more interesting than the episode summary makes it sound.

I hadn't realized black/Black white/White where distinct ones though so now I'll add that to my list of things to worry about matching word choice to audience.

EricL

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #107 on: May 07, 2019, 08:06:16 PM »
I also see the phenomenon of “virtue signaling” (now there’s a trigger phrase!) among the left where they constantly assert how supportive they are of the left’s social causes.  Even in circles where they’re only among allies and sympathizers.  My theory is that if they don’t they’ll become suspect.  And if you become too suspect your allies and sympathizers will fucking eat you alive..  They’ll definitely ostracize you - another tactic Christian moral purists used to do.  So basically a culture with norms enforced via fear.  No member is safe either.  You are not black, gay, female, atheist or immigrant enough to be declared not so (or dismissed as internalizing oppression) if you dispute the status quo.

This is extremely well put. Based on your description of your politics, you and I probably couldn't find much else to agree on, but I thoroughly appreciate the thought put into this.

I think you're particularly correct on the virtue-signalling aspect of avoiding trigger words. If I say LGBT and you say LGBTQIAA, you are signaling that you are more up on inclusive language than I am. If I say black and you say Black and Financial.Veliciraptor says African American, we're all saying something about our politics. (Same concept, though obviously different politics, with white/White/Aryan.)

Just want to chime in as a 3rd voice on this point. There is a surprising amount of fear in making sure you're signaling the right things and not signaling the wrong things in your choice of language (and also positions). And like EricL, I have definitely seen how rapidly folks will turn on a person once you're suspected of something that would separate you out from the in-group. For those who are interested, I highly recommend the episode of Invisibilia on the rise of ostracism as a method groups use to enforce their own social norms in the USA today. A lot more interesting than the episode summary makes it sound.

I hadn't realized black/Black white/White where distinct ones though so now I'll add that to my list of things to worry about matching word choice to audience.

Some understanding of the phenomena is necessary too.  Whenever you have an extreme group it is often faced with threats.  Some of those threats are pure BS and hysteria.  Others might be threats but aren't because they lack the ability to be so.  Other threats exist as solid and implacable as a speeding bus.  And inside the ranks is a fear, a terror, of betrayal by the "less than pure."  The textbook example is Robespierre's regime in the French Revolution.  They searched so diligently for enemies they found all of them.  And where they couldn't find them, they made them and found them.  It's a very human reaction and aggravated whenever such a group exists in a state of siege or feels that it is.  Since 2016 certain elements of the far left definitely feel like they'e under siege. 

FIPurpose

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #108 on: May 08, 2019, 05:32:02 AM »
I also see the phenomenon of “virtue signaling” (now there’s a trigger phrase!) among the left where they constantly assert how supportive they are of the left’s social causes.  Even in circles where they’re only among allies and sympathizers.  My theory is that if they don’t they’ll become suspect.  And if you become too suspect your allies and sympathizers will fucking eat you alive..  They’ll definitely ostracize you - another tactic Christian moral purists used to do.  So basically a culture with norms enforced via fear.  No member is safe either.  You are not black, gay, female, atheist or immigrant enough to be declared not so (or dismissed as internalizing oppression) if you dispute the status quo.

This is extremely well put. Based on your description of your politics, you and I probably couldn't find much else to agree on, but I thoroughly appreciate the thought put into this.

I think you're particularly correct on the virtue-signalling aspect of avoiding trigger words. If I say LGBT and you say LGBTQIAA, you are signaling that you are more up on inclusive language than I am. If I say black and you say Black and Financial.Veliciraptor says African American, we're all saying something about our politics. (Same concept, though obviously different politics, with white/White/Aryan.)

Just want to chime in as a 3rd voice on this point. There is a surprising amount of fear in making sure you're signaling the right things and not signaling the wrong things in your choice of language (and also positions). And like EricL, I have definitely seen how rapidly folks will turn on a person once you're suspected of something that would separate you out from the in-group. For those who are interested, I highly recommend the episode of Invisibilia on the rise of ostracism as a method groups use to enforce their own social norms in the USA today. A lot more interesting than the episode summary makes it sound.

I hadn't realized black/Black white/White where distinct ones though so now I'll add that to my list of things to worry about matching word choice to audience.

Some understanding of the phenomena is necessary too.  Whenever you have an extreme group it is often faced with threats.  Some of those threats are pure BS and hysteria.  Others might be threats but aren't because they lack the ability to be so.  Other threats exist as solid and implacable as a speeding bus.  And inside the ranks is a fear, a terror, of betrayal by the "less than pure."  The textbook example is Robespierre's regime in the French Revolution.  They searched so diligently for enemies they found all of them.  And where they couldn't find them, they made them and found them.  It's a very human reaction and aggravated whenever such a group exists in a state of siege or feels that it is.  Since 2016 certain elements of the far left definitely feel like they'e under siege. 

What? I'm nodding and following along, and then you mention some nebulous political spectrum? These discussions work when you can point to a particular group of people, but what is "the far left"? Whose their leader, and when do they meet up and discuss things?

I could just easily say centerists feel so under siege since 2016 they feel the need to constantly define and talk about a far left to create an enemy.

And Trump and Trump supporters are constantly, constantly talking about being under seige. They create chants that make them part of a particular group "lock her up" "fake news" etc.

Bloop Bloop

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 667
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #109 on: May 08, 2019, 05:38:35 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

Cromacster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1696
  • Location: Minnesnowta
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #110 on: May 08, 2019, 06:46:50 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

I think there is no limit on what should be joked about.  Humor is one of the greatest things about being human.

Malkynn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #111 on: May 08, 2019, 06:59:00 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

I think there is no limit on what should be joked about.  Humor is one of the greatest things about being human.

Agreed, but there should also be no limits on the resulting outrage.

Both are free speech.

spartana

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Retired at 42
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #112 on: May 08, 2019, 08:55:24 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

I think there is no limit on what should be joked about.  Humor is one of the greatest things about being human.
Lets all joke about Sandy Hook.


Cromacster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1696
  • Location: Minnesnowta
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #113 on: May 08, 2019, 09:13:08 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

I think there is no limit on what should be joked about.  Humor is one of the greatest things about being human.
Lets all joke about Sandy Hook.

A well thought out joke should be funny, insightful, and offer an interesting perspective (more or less, this is obviosuly a large grey area).  Jokes can be used to empower people in tough situations.  It's also very hard to create a good joke about tough situations.  Most people should think twice if they are going to joke about Sandy Hook.  I haven't heard any jokes about Sandy Hook, but there's probably one out there that could make me laugh.






Watchmaker

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #114 on: May 08, 2019, 09:15:19 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

I think there is no limit on what should be joked about.  Humor is one of the greatest things about being human.
Lets all joke about Sandy Hook.

I'm with cromacster on this one.

I don't say this lightly at all as Sandy Hook, and our country's ultimately apathetic response to it, is as dark a day as I can recall. But I think there is a context (somewhere, sometime) when a joke could be made about it. Jokes aren't pointless. Humor has power--the power to affect change in society and the power to help people heal.

That doesn't mean I think any joke about Sandy Hook is fine and shouldn't be criticized. It doesn't mean I think people aren't responsible for what they say and shouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2587
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #115 on: May 08, 2019, 09:16:19 AM »
Continuing on, I used to get offended at special snowflakes that got offended by everything.  My philosophy: "The world is not mother fucking fair and does not give a shit about your feelings, your safe spaces, etc.  You are not entitled to go about your life unoffended from time to time." 

That said, I've pondered the "world is not mother fucking fair" premise of that philosophy.  In a fair world these snowflakes wouldn't exist - nor would many other objectionable people and things.   So I realized the world is not mother fucking fair and does not give a shit about my feelings about the too easily offended and their temper tantrums.  I'm not entitled to not run into those types of people from time to time.  This freed me of the vexation I used to feel about them and they from my knee jerk impulse to troll them in response.  Plus I've come to suspect there's more on a personal, psychological level going on for such people than mere background Trumptardation.

It's similar to when I found out the cabin pressure on airplanes during takeoff and landing often caused babies, sensitive to that, feel like someone trying to pry their brain their ears out ice picks.  Suddenly the screaming just became unavoidable background noise akin to the jet engines and a reason for sympathy.  Instead of a judgement on parenting skills, airline cabin space, and my bad luck in the roulette wheel of airline seating.

Maybe this is part of the disconnect.  Yes, the world is not fair, and does not care about feelings.  But I, as an individual human being, do care about other's feelings.  Why wouldn't I, then, accommodate something as small as a slight alteration in word choice?  the world is a cruel, heartless bitch, but that doesn't mean I need to be.  Others aren't *entitled* for me not to be, but I'll do what I can, when I reasonably can. 

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #116 on: May 08, 2019, 09:28:44 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

I think there is no limit on what should be joked about.  Humor is one of the greatest things about being human.
Lets all joke about Sandy Hook.

I'm with cromacster on this one.

I don't say this lightly at all as Sandy Hook, and our country's ultimately apathetic response to it, is as dark a day as I can recall. But I think there is a context (somewhere, sometime) when a joke could be made about it. Jokes aren't pointless. Humor has power--the power to affect change in society and the power to help people heal.

That doesn't mean I think any joke about Sandy Hook is fine and shouldn't be criticized. It doesn't mean I think people aren't responsible for what they say and shouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

I'm reminded of a couple of Mel Brooks quotes:

“You have to bring him down with ridicule … It’s been one of my lifelong jobs – to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler.”

“After all the people that he was responsible for killing and after utterly destroying half the world, I just thought the only weapon I’ve really got is comedy. And if I can make this guy ludicrous, if I can make you laugh at him, then it’s a victory of sorts. You can’t get on a soapbox with these orators, because they’re very good at convincing the masses that they’re right. But if you can make them look ridiculous, you can win over the people.”

Are Holocaust or Hitler jokes OK? It depends a lot on the tone, content, and yeah, on the comedian. A joke from a Jewish man who served on the front lines of WWII defusing land mines, who saw his extended family decimated by the Holocaust is going to be a lot different than a joke from a Holocaust denier.

So, are school shooting jokes OK? To the extent that they're told by the victims and mock those in power, probably. "My school banned candy so I've been sneaking it in inside my gun." is one I've seen that would seem to fit that.

Probably not everyone liked it. Not everyone liked The Producers either. Such is comedy and satire. I'm allowed to say it, you're allowed to vocally hate it.

EricL

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #117 on: May 08, 2019, 10:33:39 AM »
I've been told the key to comedy is time and distance.  A bucket of rocks falling on a man up close is a tragedy.  A bucket of rocks falling on a man hundreds of miles away and years ago is comedy.

EricL

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2019, 10:43:46 AM »
I also see the phenomenon of “virtue signaling” (now there’s a trigger phrase!) among the left where they constantly assert how supportive they are of the left’s social causes.  Even in circles where they’re only among allies and sympathizers.  My theory is that if they don’t they’ll become suspect.  And if you become too suspect your allies and sympathizers will fucking eat you alive..  They’ll definitely ostracize you - another tactic Christian moral purists used to do.  So basically a culture with norms enforced via fear.  No member is safe either.  You are not black, gay, female, atheist or immigrant enough to be declared not so (or dismissed as internalizing oppression) if you dispute the status quo.

This is extremely well put. Based on your description of your politics, you and I probably couldn't find much else to agree on, but I thoroughly appreciate the thought put into this.

I think you're particularly correct on the virtue-signalling aspect of avoiding trigger words. If I say LGBT and you say LGBTQIAA, you are signaling that you are more up on inclusive language than I am. If I say black and you say Black and Financial.Veliciraptor says African American, we're all saying something about our politics. (Same concept, though obviously different politics, with white/White/Aryan.)

Just want to chime in as a 3rd voice on this point. There is a surprising amount of fear in making sure you're signaling the right things and not signaling the wrong things in your choice of language (and also positions). And like EricL, I have definitely seen how rapidly folks will turn on a person once you're suspected of something that would separate you out from the in-group. For those who are interested, I highly recommend the episode of Invisibilia on the rise of ostracism as a method groups use to enforce their own social norms in the USA today. A lot more interesting than the episode summary makes it sound.

I hadn't realized black/Black white/White where distinct ones though so now I'll add that to my list of things to worry about matching word choice to audience.

Some understanding of the phenomena is necessary too.  Whenever you have an extreme group it is often faced with threats.  Some of those threats are pure BS and hysteria.  Others might be threats but aren't because they lack the ability to be so.  Other threats exist as solid and implacable as a speeding bus.  And inside the ranks is a fear, a terror, of betrayal by the "less than pure."  The textbook example is Robespierre's regime in the French Revolution.  They searched so diligently for enemies they found all of them.  And where they couldn't find them, they made them and found them.  It's a very human reaction and aggravated whenever such a group exists in a state of siege or feels that it is.  Since 2016 certain elements of the far left definitely feel like they'e under siege. 

What? I'm nodding and following along, and then you mention some nebulous political spectrum? These discussions work when you can point to a particular group of people, but what is "the far left"? Whose their leader, and when do they meet up and discuss things?

I could just easily say centerists feel so under siege since 2016 they feel the need to constantly define and talk about a far left to create an enemy.

And Trump and Trump supporters are constantly, constantly talking about being under seige. They create chants that make them part of a particular group "lock her up" "fake news" etc.

You are right in that the siege mentality isn't just a far left thing.  All ends of the political spectrum can fall prey to it under the right circumstances.  In this case the far left shows its fear in online discourse and garnish of Antifa violence.  It's almost impossible not to see the far right does the same. 

As a centerist I definitely feel pressure from both sides.  Though at least in my case I'll concede my centerist politicians gave and continue to give too much away with too little struggle to the right.  And am perfectly OK with far left politicians rocking the boat to offset that.  I will vote for most of them.  OK enough for full blown socialism?  No.  But I want to escape Gilded Age scumbag capitalism first before starting that fight.

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #119 on: May 09, 2019, 07:54:06 PM »
A few weeks ago I had my annual skin cancer screening. I went to a new dermatologist. I’m in my early 30’s. The new doctor was looking at the pretty faded scar near my nose from where I had skin cancer removed in my 20’s.

This is his first words out of his mouth as he’s staring at it.. “Wow, they sure took a chunk out of your face, no big deal, you definitely weren’t that good looking to begin with.”

To some people, they would literally get beyond bent out of shape by this. Personally, I though it was hilarious and loved this guy. He’s my new best friend.

I’m a millennial, but I think all this political, hurt feeling bull shit is ridiculous. My generation is the most self entitled, thin skinned group of people out there. I try and stay pretty “politically correct” online because so many people are thin skinned. This is really the only forum I’m part of, and I hate to say it, but it’s so extreme left that it’s also the same group of people that is the epitome of politically correct.. I say that as someone who has only ever voted democratic in my life....

Today I thought of this gas station as I pulled up to the gas station and watched some idiot drive off with the pump still attached to his truck.. The guy in the pump station next to him just stared in disbelief.. I knew it was time to say something wildly inappropriate.. I pulled up next to this guy, rolled down my window, and yelled “HOW ABOUT THAT FUCKING RETARD DRIVING OFF WITH THE PUMP STILL ATTACHED.”

We both got a really good laugh..

spartana

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Retired at 42
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #120 on: May 10, 2019, 08:08:26 AM »
I think there are some things that should not be joked about: murder, rape, racism, sexism. I.e., anything that involves personal violence against another, or discrimination against an innate characteristic.

That aside, I have little time for political correctness. But I find a lot of people who yell 'political correctness' really just want a venue to express discriminatory and bigoted views.

I think there is no limit on what should be joked about.  Humor is one of the greatest things about being human.
Lets all joke about Sandy Hook.

I'm with cromacster on this one.

I don't say this lightly at all as Sandy Hook, and our country's ultimately apathetic response to it, is as dark a day as I can recall. But I think there is a context (somewhere, sometime) when a joke could be made about it. Jokes aren't pointless. Humor has power--the power to affect change in society and the power to help people heal.

That doesn't mean I think any joke about Sandy Hook is fine and shouldn't be criticized. It doesn't mean I think people aren't responsible for what they say and shouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

I'm reminded of a couple of Mel Brooks quotes:

“You have to bring him down with ridicule … It’s been one of my lifelong jobs – to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler.”

“After all the people that he was responsible for killing and after utterly destroying half the world, I just thought the only weapon I’ve really got is comedy. And if I can make this guy ludicrous, if I can make you laugh at him, then it’s a victory of sorts. You can’t get on a soapbox with these orators, because they’re very good at convincing the masses that they’re right. But if you can make them look ridiculous, you can win over the people.”

Are Holocaust or Hitler jokes OK? It depends a lot on the tone, content, and yeah, on the comedian. A joke from a Jewish man who served on the front lines of WWII defusing land mines, who saw his extended family decimated by the Holocaust is going to be a lot different than a joke from a Holocaust denier.

So, are school shooting jokes OK? To the extent that they're told by the victims and mock those in power, probably. "My school banned candy so I've been sneaking it in inside my gun." is one I've seen that would seem to fit that.

Probably not everyone liked it. Not everyone liked The Producers either. Such is comedy and satire. I'm allowed to say it, you're allowed to vocally hate it.
I think there's a big difference between making a joke or fun off people like Hitler or Adam Lanza verses makes jokes about about the actual victims. Some people who have done horrible things are totally mockable - and that's what good comics like Mel Brooks with Hitler. Making cracks about the actual victims is usually seen as pretty deplorable my most people. But like @Malkynn said, you are free to say whatever you want, just don't get your panties in a bunch if people tell you that awful and you should just STFU.

Watchmaker

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #121 on: May 10, 2019, 08:23:49 AM »
I'm reminded of a couple of Mel Brooks quotes:

“You have to bring him down with ridicule … It’s been one of my lifelong jobs – to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler.”

“After all the people that he was responsible for killing and after utterly destroying half the world, I just thought the only weapon I’ve really got is comedy. And if I can make this guy ludicrous, if I can make you laugh at him, then it’s a victory of sorts. You can’t get on a soapbox with these orators, because they’re very good at convincing the masses that they’re right. But if you can make them look ridiculous, you can win over the people.”

Are Holocaust or Hitler jokes OK? It depends a lot on the tone, content, and yeah, on the comedian. A joke from a Jewish man who served on the front lines of WWII defusing land mines, who saw his extended family decimated by the Holocaust is going to be a lot different than a joke from a Holocaust denier.

So, are school shooting jokes OK? To the extent that they're told by the victims and mock those in power, probably. "My school banned candy so I've been sneaking it in inside my gun." is one I've seen that would seem to fit that.

Probably not everyone liked it. Not everyone liked The Producers either. Such is comedy and satire. I'm allowed to say it, you're allowed to vocally hate it.
I think there's a big difference between making a joke or fun off people like Hitler or Adam Lanza verses makes jokes about about the actual victims. Some people who have done horrible things are totally mockable - and that's what good comics like Mel Brooks with Hitler. Making cracks about the actual victims is usually seen as pretty deplorable my most people. But like @Malkynn said, you are free to say whatever you want, just don't get your panties in a bunch if people tell you that awful and you should just STFU.

Jokes that might seem on their face to be directed at the victims of Sandy Hook are often actually directed at the audience. To shock them by pointing out a hypocrisy in their life, for example. Merula's example about sneaking in candy in a gun is a good example, as it's actually directed at the audience and how we'll sit by and do nothing while children are slaughtered, but get up in arms about relatively innocuous things.

Watchmaker

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #122 on: May 10, 2019, 08:30:47 AM »
I pulled up next to this guy, rolled down my window, and yelled “HOW ABOUT THAT FUCKING RETARD DRIVING OFF WITH THE PUMP STILL ATTACHED.”

Well, when you've got a line that good, you've got to use it.

Seriously though, you say it was "time to say something wildly inappropriate". So you know what you said was inappropriate-- in fact you relied on that taboo for your humor.

You are free to do that, and others are free to draw conclusions about you based on that.

spartana

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Retired at 42
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #123 on: May 10, 2019, 08:44:47 AM »
I'm reminded of a couple of Mel Brooks quotes:

“You have to bring him down with ridicule … It’s been one of my lifelong jobs – to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler.”

“After all the people that he was responsible for killing and after utterly destroying half the world, I just thought the only weapon I’ve really got is comedy. And if I can make this guy ludicrous, if I can make you laugh at him, then it’s a victory of sorts. You can’t get on a soapbox with these orators, because they’re very good at convincing the masses that they’re right. But if you can make them look ridiculous, you can win over the people.”

Are Holocaust or Hitler jokes OK? It depends a lot on the tone, content, and yeah, on the comedian. A joke from a Jewish man who served on the front lines of WWII defusing land mines, who saw his extended family decimated by the Holocaust is going to be a lot different than a joke from a Holocaust denier.

So, are school shooting jokes OK? To the extent that they're told by the victims and mock those in power, probably. "My school banned candy so I've been sneaking it in inside my gun." is one I've seen that would seem to fit that.

Probably not everyone liked it. Not everyone liked The Producers either. Such is comedy and satire. I'm allowed to say it, you're allowed to vocally hate it.
I think there's a big difference between making a joke or fun off people like Hitler or Adam Lanza verses makes jokes about about the actual victims. Some people who have done horrible things are totally mockable - and that's what good comics like Mel Brooks with Hitler. Making cracks about the actual victims is usually seen as pretty deplorable my most people. But like @Malkynn said, you are free to say whatever you want, just don't get your panties in a bunch if people tell you that awful and you should just STFU.

Jokes that might seem on their face to be directed at the victims of Sandy Hook are often actually directed at the audience. To shock them by pointing out a hypocrisy in their life, for example. Merula's example about sneaking in candy in a gun is a good example, as it's actually directed at the audience and how we'll sit by and do nothing while children are slaughtered, but get up in arms about relatively innocuous things.
Yes but the candy in the gun joke isn't directed at the victims directly so isn't as offensive as say making a joke about how the Sandy Hook parents can now afford a luxury vacation since they don't have to worry about paying for kids college. Or about the SS officer who invites the neighbor Jews to a barbeque, etc.

Watchmaker

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #124 on: May 10, 2019, 09:17:44 AM »
Jokes that might seem on their face to be directed at the victims of Sandy Hook are often actually directed at the audience. To shock them by pointing out a hypocrisy in their life, for example. Merula's example about sneaking in candy in a gun is a good example, as it's actually directed at the audience and how we'll sit by and do nothing while children are slaughtered, but get up in arms about relatively innocuous things.
Yes but the candy in the gun joke isn't directed at the victims directly so isn't as offensive as say making a joke about how the Sandy Hook parents can now afford a luxury vacation since they don't have to worry about paying for kids college. Or about the SS officer who invites the neighbor Jews to a barbeque, etc.

I certainly agree that it's possible to make a tasteless joke about Sandy Hook or Nazis- no debate there. But I also think it's (in theory) possible to make a worthwhile one.

fuzzy math

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 825
  • Age: 37
  • Location: PNW ---> Midwest (for now)
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #125 on: May 10, 2019, 09:48:20 AM »
Jokes that might seem on their face to be directed at the victims of Sandy Hook are often actually directed at the audience. To shock them by pointing out a hypocrisy in their life, for example. Merula's example about sneaking in candy in a gun is a good example, as it's actually directed at the audience and how we'll sit by and do nothing while children are slaughtered, but get up in arms about relatively innocuous things.
Yes but the candy in the gun joke isn't directed at the victims directly so isn't as offensive as say making a joke about how the Sandy Hook parents can now afford a luxury vacation since they don't have to worry about paying for kids college. Or about the SS officer who invites the neighbor Jews to a barbeque, etc.

I certainly agree that it's possible to make a tasteless joke about Sandy Hook or Nazis- no debate there. But I also think it's (in theory) possible to make a worthwhile one.

The mention of Sandy Hook (and by proxy other school shootings) made me think of the Onion, who just reposts the same article over and over after every shooting. Satire is powerful.


https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4624
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • Insert Snappy Title Here (Journal)
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #126 on: May 10, 2019, 10:06:02 AM »
Jokes that might seem on their face to be directed at the victims of Sandy Hook are often actually directed at the audience. To shock them by pointing out a hypocrisy in their life, for example. Merula's example about sneaking in candy in a gun is a good example, as it's actually directed at the audience and how we'll sit by and do nothing while children are slaughtered, but get up in arms about relatively innocuous things.
Yes but the candy in the gun joke isn't directed at the victims directly so isn't as offensive as say making a joke about how the Sandy Hook parents can now afford a luxury vacation since they don't have to worry about paying for kids college. Or about the SS officer who invites the neighbor Jews to a barbeque, etc.

I certainly agree that it's possible to make a tasteless joke about Sandy Hook or Nazis- no debate there. But I also think it's (in theory) possible to make a worthwhile one.

The mention of Sandy Hook (and by proxy other school shootings) made me think of the Onion, who just reposts the same article over and over after every shooting. Satire is powerful.


https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527
Fantastic article.
Every time I (sadly) see it.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3655
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #127 on: May 10, 2019, 11:39:33 AM »
I’m a millennial, but I think all this political, hurt feeling bull shit is ridiculous. My generation is the most self entitled, thin skinned group of people out there. I try and stay pretty “politically correct” online because so many people are thin skinned.

Eh, it's the internet and mob mentality. It doesn't take many to get others to throw rationalism out the window and become vitriolic about condemning someone.

My recent favorite is when a girl picked a traditional Chinese dress for prom. She got vilified for "appropriating" Chinese culture...but many Chinese (meaning Chinese who live in China) thought it was respectful and nice to see.

With the history dredging we do now for politicians, it'll be interesting to see what happens in decades when everyone's lives are recorded on the internet. Mores change and so do people.

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #128 on: May 10, 2019, 04:28:09 PM »
I pulled up next to this guy, rolled down my window, and yelled “HOW ABOUT THAT FUCKING RETARD DRIVING OFF WITH THE PUMP STILL ATTACHED.”

Well, when you've got a line that good, you've got to use it.

Seriously though, you say it was "time to say something wildly inappropriate". So you know what you said was inappropriate-- in fact you relied on that taboo for your humor.

You are free to do that, and others are free to draw conclusions about you based on that.

I typically do avoid using the word “retarded” to anyone I don’t know, as it has certainly developed a more and more negative stigma. I made a quick judgement call looking at the guy who I said it to (aka I stereotyped him) and believed he would be fit to understand the joke-ness of that comment. He seemed to, and we both laughed. If it was a 70 year old grandma, my choice of words would have been quite different.

As I saw it happen, I immediately thought of this thread (which I had participated in yet) and thought “now’s a good time to exercise my vocabulary” lol.

BTDretire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2490
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #129 on: May 12, 2019, 10:24:24 AM »
By that same token, we should avoid using the words "kill," "murder," "snuff out," etc. in ANY context because someone in the company of our conversation may have been subjected to homicide (or a loved one)?  When my comedian friend gets off stage, I am no longer allowed to say "man you really killed it!" because someone in earshot could be triggered? This is a very slippery slope. Maybe we should all be mute so there is zero probability of unknowingly offending someone with a particular word or its usage?


 Go out there and break a leg.
My apologizes to those of you that have broken a leg.

Financial.Velociraptor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston TX
  • Devour your prey raptors!
    • Financial Velociraptor
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #130 on: May 12, 2019, 04:39:59 PM »
OP here.  Thanks for all the replies.  I think I have learned a few things about society, this board, and even myself.

Would like to point out this: https://reason.com/2019/05/12/ronald-sullivan-harvard-fired-student-mob/?fbclid=IwAR1u7JCVDaRc9OmGAdoWs5am6G1LXrZMEfWboCDztLHnbc06RhNUNGGEBcQ

This is troubling to me on so many levels.  Harvard caves to student pressure and fires someone because they served as Harvey Weinstein's attorney.  Clearly, a critical constitutional protection for citizens is being eroded by mod mentality.  But how can a sane person fight back against political correctness gone to far? 

Laserjet3051

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 688
  • Age: 91
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2019, 04:49:49 PM »
OP here.  Thanks for all the replies.  I think I have learned a few things about society, this board, and even myself.

How? Know thy enemy. Strike from a position of power. Keep "clean."
Would like to point out this: https://reason.com/2019/05/12/ronald-sullivan-harvard-fired-student-mob/?fbclid=IwAR1u7JCVDaRc9OmGAdoWs5am6G1LXrZMEfWboCDztLHnbc06RhNUNGGEBcQ

This is troubling to me on so many levels.  Harvard caves to student pressure and fires someone because they served as Harvey Weinstein's attorney.  Clearly, a critical constitutional protection for citizens is being eroded by mod mentality.  But how can a sane person fight back against political correctness gone to far?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 04:51:31 PM by Laserjet3051 »

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2587
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2019, 06:08:12 PM »
OP here.  Thanks for all the replies.  I think I have learned a few things about society, this board, and even myself.

Would like to point out this: https://reason.com/2019/05/12/ronald-sullivan-harvard-fired-student-mob/?fbclid=IwAR1u7JCVDaRc9OmGAdoWs5am6G1LXrZMEfWboCDztLHnbc06RhNUNGGEBcQ

This is troubling to me on so many levels.  Harvard caves to student pressure and fires someone because they served as Harvey Weinstein's attorney.  Clearly, a critical constitutional protection for citizens is being eroded by mod mentality.  But how can a sane person fight back against political correctness gone to far?

This seems so much like the slippery slope argument.  Yes, political correctness can and does go to far.  So I suppose a "sane person" just needs to draw a thoughtful, well considered line for themselves somewhere in the gray area between "say whatever the hell you want" and "anything that might every be offensive to even a single person must never be uttered".  Your line will be different than mine, and pretty much everyone else's.  But to push back because sometimes it goes to far, and to allow that to make you less sensitive (and I'm not saying you specifically are doing that, but certainly some do) as some sort of counter-protest against PCness isn't the way to go either.  So you just decide what you are comfortable with, what steps are and are not too much to ask, and you go forth knowing you've made a thoughtful decision and you are acting in line with your values and with who you want to be. 

Again, though, I'm curious about whether you'd rather someone who was offended by your language just say nothing, and continue to be offended (and probably to think less of you as a result) than to bring it calmly to your attention as happened in this situation? Isn't it better to get this stuff out in the open so you are at least making an educated decision when/if you choose to use a word that is pretty offensive on a pretty large scale?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13346
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2019, 07:18:27 PM »
OP here.  Thanks for all the replies.  I think I have learned a few things about society, this board, and even myself.

Would like to point out this: https://reason.com/2019/05/12/ronald-sullivan-harvard-fired-student-mob/?fbclid=IwAR1u7JCVDaRc9OmGAdoWs5am6G1LXrZMEfWboCDztLHnbc06RhNUNGGEBcQ

This is troubling to me on so many levels.  Harvard caves to student pressure and fires someone because they served as Harvey Weinstein's attorney.  Clearly, a critical constitutional protection for citizens is being eroded by mod mentality.  But how can a sane person fight back against political correctness gone to far?

Based on what that article says, that Sullivan was fired solely because he chose to defend Harvey Weinstein . . . yes, I agree with you.  That seems pretty fucked up.

I agree with you, it's important that long time serial rapists are able to receive a legal defense in court.  I don't agree with you that this is evidence of a constitutional protection being eroded.  Weinstein has had no problem hiring a crack legal team.

The article you posted also seemed kinda slanted, so I figured it was worth checking some other reports of the story.  https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/11/us/ronald-sullivan-harvard.html  Sullivan isn't being fired from Harvard.  He remains in the same position in the law school, he's just not being renewed as faculty dean.  The fact that current and former staff members of the faculty are on record saying that they had experienced “a workplace climate of hostility and suspicion” from Sullivan might have something to do with the decision as well.

Paints a bit less dire situation than was originally presented, no?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 02:10:56 PM by GuitarStv »

Watchmaker

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #134 on: May 13, 2019, 07:12:38 AM »
OP here.  Thanks for all the replies.  I think I have learned a few things about society, this board, and even myself.

FVR--Would you be willing to share a little bit more on this? I'm always interested in what other people are taking away from conversations like this.

shenlong55

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 510
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2019, 09:09:28 AM »
OP here.  Thanks for all the replies.  I think I have learned a few things about society, this board, and even myself.

Would like to point out this: https://reason.com/2019/05/12/ronald-sullivan-harvard-fired-student-mob/?fbclid=IwAR1u7JCVDaRc9OmGAdoWs5am6G1LXrZMEfWboCDztLHnbc06RhNUNGGEBcQ

This is troubling to me on so many levels.  Harvard caves to student pressure and fires someone because they served as Harvey Weinstein's attorney.  Clearly, a critical constitutional protection for citizens is being eroded by mod mentality.  But how can a sane person fight back against political correctness gone to far?

Based on what that article says, that Sullivan was fired solely because he chose to defend Harvey Weinstein . . . yes, I agree with you.  That seems pretty fucked up.

I agree with you, it's important that long time serial rapists are able to receive a legal defense in court.  I don't agree with you that this is evidence of a constitutional protection being eroded.  Weinstein has had no problem hiring a crack legal team.

The article you posted also seemed kinda slanted, so I figured it was worth checking some other reports of the story.  https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/11/us/ronald-sullivan-harvard.html  Sullivan isn't being fired from Harvard.  He remains in the same position in the law school, he's just not being renewed as faculty dean.  The fact that current and former staff members of the faculty are on record saying that they had experienced “a workplace climate of hostility and suspicion” might have something to do with the decision as well.

Paints a bit less dire situation than was originally presented, no?

+1

Financial.Velociraptor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston TX
  • Devour your prey raptors!
    • Financial Velociraptor
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2019, 08:31:04 PM »
OP here.  Thanks for all the replies.  I think I have learned a few things about society, this board, and even myself.

FVR--Would you be willing to share a little bit more on this? I'm always interested in what other people are taking away from conversations like this.

@Watchmaker - Sure.  I've learned there is more than one valid perspective on this topic.  That the board probably has a bimodal distribution of people on either side of the argument.  And that I can sometimes be a little bit ungracious.  I'm trying to do better (and for the record, I never refused to comply with the request to edit my original comment.) 

I'm better aware thanks to some dissenters who have been rational and persuasive that the social contract depends on some level of people agreeing to respect each other's boundaries.  I am likewise further convinced that political correctness is going too far in that some perpetually aggrieved persons are manipulating the unwritten rules of said social contract to compel acceptance of their boundaries that are in violation of others boundaries.  The system is being "gamed" so to speak. 

That is the crux, to me, of why there is a backlash.  Social pressure to conform to the social contract becomes obnoxious when it is applied unevenly and in favor of one interest group over another.  I am further convinced I have more to learn on this topic and am primarily just reading responses without participating while I salt away some additional information.

-Lizard King-

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #137 on: May 14, 2019, 08:53:40 AM »
Social pressure to conform to the social contract becomes obnoxious when it is applied unevenly and in favor of one interest group over another.

I wholeheartedly agree with this view, but I don't know if I'm convinced that it is being applied unevenly. This thread has examples of phrases that both sides of the spectrum object to: "Happy Holidays", "Easter worshippers", "Double-blind study", "Smear the Queer".

Humans are prone to confirmation bias. We're more likely to look for evidence that confirms our initial hypothesis ("Liberals are snowflakes!" "Conservatives are the real snowflakes!"), and less likely to recognize or look for evidence that would disprove that hypothesis.

It's very possible that this is lopsided, I would say probably, but it's difficult to any one of us to independently assess that.

FIPurpose

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #138 on: May 14, 2019, 10:24:52 AM »
Social pressure to conform to the social contract becomes obnoxious when it is applied unevenly and in favor of one interest group over another.

I wholeheartedly agree with this view, but I don't know if I'm convinced that it is being applied unevenly. This thread has examples of phrases that both sides of the spectrum object to: "Happy Holidays", "Easter worshippers", "Double-blind study", "Smear the Queer".

Humans are prone to confirmation bias. We're more likely to look for evidence that confirms our initial hypothesis ("Liberals are snowflakes!" "Conservatives are the real snowflakes!"), and less likely to recognize or look for evidence that would disprove that hypothesis.

It's very possible that this is lopsided, I would say probably, but it's difficult to any one of us to independently assess that.

I agree with this sentiment. (uh oh is this confirmation bias?)

I think since we have plenty of anecdotes on both sides, we can say that this isn't simply one side or the other doing it. But without a larger study, it's difficult to know what is trending one way or another.

The only data I could find was someone putting together some preliminary data together for an eventual study:
https://niskanencenter.org/blog/there-is-no-campus-free-speech-crisis-a-close-look-at-the-evidence/

It shows that there is an uptick, but it is markedly not anti-conservative and is not nearly as bad as the media or politicians try to push it to be. "Political correctness" seems to be more of a political party calling card than it is a reality.

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3575
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #139 on: May 14, 2019, 10:28:19 AM »
FV, I like your framing of this issue, because I think it captures something that is often missed, and something I really hadn't thought about myself before.

1) The impulse to avoid giving offense and to encourage others to do the same is a good one, and an important part of how we're able to continue to function as a society. (Reminds me of the quote "Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together.")

2) The excesses and abuses we see are the result of people intentionally or unintentionally hijacking this real and important social function to try to either benefit themselves or punish those they see as their enemies.

One problem is that when people see #2 happening they turn around and want to throw out the baby (being polite and caring about others feelings) with the bathwater.

Financial.Velociraptor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston TX
  • Devour your prey raptors!
    • Financial Velociraptor
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #140 on: May 14, 2019, 11:59:57 AM »
FV, I like your framing of this issue, because I think it captures something that is often missed, and something I really hadn't thought about myself before.


Thanks @maizeman

I think this has somehow turned into a valuable discussion (at least to me).  I took a little flak in the first page or so (and some of it was actually deserved).  Now people seem to be digging into a problem that is actually sort of difficult to define.  I'm reminded of the Supreme Court opinion on pornography (forget which Justice), "I can't effectively define pornography, but damned if I don't what it is when I see it."  (paraphrased)

So, I'm all for cracking down on and ridiculing white supremacists when they post the pic with Dr. King in a sniper sight with the caption "Our Dream Came True" on my Facebook feed.  But I'm irritated when someone objects to me using the word "rape" as per the actual dictionary definition.  Like the justice who said he couldn't define pornography, I can't define when the thin red line is crossed, but I damn well know when someone has gone too far in my personal opinion.  So how polite do I have to be when I tell them I think they have become one of the "muthafuckas"?

Watchmaker

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #141 on: May 14, 2019, 12:14:50 PM »
I think this has somehow turned into a valuable discussion (at least to me).  I took a little flak in the first page or so (and some of it was actually deserved).  Now people seem to be digging into a problem that is actually sort of difficult to define.  I'm reminded of the Supreme Court opinion on pornography (forget which Justice), "I can't effectively define pornography, but damned if I don't what it is when I see it."  (paraphrased)

So, I'm all for cracking down on and ridiculing white supremacists when they post the pic with Dr. King in a sniper sight with the caption "Our Dream Came True" on my Facebook feed.  But I'm irritated when someone objects to me using the word "rape" as per the actual dictionary definition.  Like the justice who said he couldn't define pornography, I can't define when the thin red line is crossed, but I damn well know when someone has gone too far in my personal opinion.  So how polite do I have to be when I tell them I think they have become one of the "muthafuckas"?

I've benefited from my understanding that we all draw that line in a different place (for lots of different reasons), and that my line is not "right" and theirs in not "wrong". So my suggestion when that happens would be to reflect on how your different experiences in life have led you and them to having a different reaction to a particular word, and marveling at the beautiful complexity of life.

There's also a personal benefit to shrugging off irritation at the actions of others.

Malkynn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #142 on: May 15, 2019, 05:04:53 AM »
FV, I like your framing of this issue, because I think it captures something that is often missed, and something I really hadn't thought about myself before.


Thanks @maizeman

I think this has somehow turned into a valuable discussion (at least to me).  I took a little flak in the first page or so (and some of it was actually deserved).  Now people seem to be digging into a problem that is actually sort of difficult to define.  I'm reminded of the Supreme Court opinion on pornography (forget which Justice), "I can't effectively define pornography, but damned if I don't what it is when I see it."  (paraphrased)

So, I'm all for cracking down on and ridiculing white supremacists when they post the pic with Dr. King in a sniper sight with the caption "Our Dream Came True" on my Facebook feed.  But I'm irritated when someone objects to me using the word "rape" as per the actual dictionary definition.  Like the justice who said he couldn't define pornography, I can't define when the thin red line is crossed, but I damn well know when someone has gone too far in my personal opinion.  So how polite do I have to be when I tell them I think they have become one of the "muthafuckas"?

You "have to be" exactly as polite as you want to be.
No one is forcing you to be polite.

As someone who offends people on a near daily basis, I can share a bit of wisdom on the experience of offending people.

When someone takes offense to what you have said or done, it's really not the end of the world and does not need to be blown out of proportion, especially when that person is a stranger on the internet.

Your social obligation when you offend someone is not to apologize or even necessarily change any behaviour. Your social obligation is to try and dispassionately examine the person's reasons for taking offense, try to understand them, and then decide for yourself if you feel a responsibility to change your behaviour.

Now, you also have to use common sense and know that continuing on with that behaviour is going to come with the consequences of offending people. As long as you are prepared for it, then cool.

You can say rape all you want.

But yeah, say rape all you want. That is your right and freedom. However, be prepared that some of us, who have been raped, might speak up about our discomfort that we probably have always had, but are now more comfortable vocalizing thanks to the current social climate of support for rape victims.

Personally, I don't care if you use the word, but I don't actually speak for all rape victims.

It's up to you if you decide if such offenses are worth, in your mind, of changing your behaviour. There is no right answer, there's just what feels right to you (which will likely change over time), and what is likely to come with consequences.

If your goal is never to offend, then...HAHAHAHAHA, good fucking luck with that dude. Never gonna happen.
I GUARANTEE you've said countless things that have offended countless people over the years even if no one ever said anything.

Whether people choose to politely ignore the myriad things you say that offend them or whether they choose to speak up and voice their criticisms doesn't change the fact that you are perpetually walking around offending people. It's unavoidable.

If you accept that reality, it becomes a lot easier and less upsetting to accept when someone speaks up about that reality.

There's literally no reason to be reactive or get upset when someone tells you that what you've said, they find offensive.
It's just uncomfortable for you. That's it.

I personally appreciate when people speak up to me about the offense I've caused. Do I always give every critique merit? Do I always submit myself to their wants?
Oh hell no!

However, I do always listen, I do always try to understand where the offense is coming from, especially if it's something new that I'm surprised by.

Sometimes my reaction will be a wholehearted apology and change in behaviour, sometimes I'll just shrug and ignore it, and sometimes I'll dig my heels in and stand my ground on what I've said.

No matter what I ultimately decide to do, I'm always grateful for being more enlightened about the perspectives of others.

So chill.
This isn't the first time you've offended someone with your casual and dictionary-approved use of the word "rape". You've probably been judged for this before, you just didn't know it. At least now you can decide actively if you want to utilize language that you know might offend as opposed to living in comfortable ignorance.

Also, let's not pretend that "rape of the earth" was ever intended to be benign. It specifically uses a loaded term to convey the seriousness of the violation of the planet. It's intentionally meant to provoke.

It's just less acceptable now to use sexual assault as a linguistic/literary device of provocation. There's more social pressure to be aware of the consequences of choosing such an intentionally loaded term.

Lastly, yes, the rules of what is considered polite will change over time. They always do. It's nothing to be upset about.

If keeping the use of the word rape in casual conversation is really a cross you want to die on, then go ahead, take on that fight. You are more than welcome to do so.

If you just want to get along with people as much as possible, then yeah, you are absolutely going to have to change your use of language over time, which can be awkward, but really isn't all that hard.

You pick your desired outcome for yourself and use your free speech to achieve your desired outcome within society. You have no say over who you offend, but you have every say over how you choose to behave in response to their offense.

I really don't get what more freedom you could ask for?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 05:24:05 AM by Malkynn »

Watchmaker

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #143 on: May 15, 2019, 07:31:58 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder why anyone else (including me) bothers posting, when you know Malkynn is just going to come along and do it better.

Malkynn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #144 on: May 15, 2019, 07:51:00 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder why anyone else (including me) bothers posting, when you know Malkynn is just going to come along and do it better.

Careful...the people who can't stand my writing and wish I would just shut the fuck up are really going to take offense to this comment ;)

RyanAtTanagra

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Location: SF Bay, CA
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #145 on: May 15, 2019, 10:22:26 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder why anyone else (including me) bothers posting, when you know Malkynn is just going to come along and do it better.

Careful...the people who can't stand my writing and wish I would just shut the fuck up are really going to take offense to this comment ;)

I've considered it, and decided I'm ok with them remaining offended.

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2587
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #146 on: May 15, 2019, 03:02:50 PM »
FV, I like your framing of this issue, because I think it captures something that is often missed, and something I really hadn't thought about myself before.


Thanks @maizeman

I think this has somehow turned into a valuable discussion (at least to me).  I took a little flak in the first page or so (and some of it was actually deserved).  Now people seem to be digging into a problem that is actually sort of difficult to define.  I'm reminded of the Supreme Court opinion on pornography (forget which Justice), "I can't effectively define pornography, but damned if I don't what it is when I see it."  (paraphrased)

So, I'm all for cracking down on and ridiculing white supremacists when they post the pic with Dr. King in a sniper sight with the caption "Our Dream Came True" on my Facebook feed.  But I'm irritated when someone objects to me using the word "rape" as per the actual dictionary definition.  Like the justice who said he couldn't define pornography, I can't define when the thin red line is crossed, but I damn well know when someone has gone too far in my personal opinion.  So how polite do I have to be when I tell them I think they have become one of the "muthafuckas"?

How polite you "have" to be depends on your goals and comfort levels.  You can be zero percent polite.  Is that how you want to walk through the world?  Or you can be some version of medium polite.  Maybe you do still use the word "rape" in a casual, non-sexual assault sort of way.  Is it worth it to you to keep that word, which yes, you have every right to use, knowing that it offends people and that not using is it a fairly simple thing?  Maybe it is.  So be it.

You decide who you want to be as you walk through the world, and how much or little priority you want to place on the feelings of others.  But they hard part is that then you must own the repercussions of that decision. When people think you are an insensitive asshole for knowing a word offends them (or, depending on the work, many others as well), you have to own that. 

You (and all of us) are almost certainly going to offend some people some times.  After examination of who I want to be and how I want to value and interact with others, I'm almost [but only almost!] always going to err on the side of not offending, especially when it comes to something as easy to change as word choice.  Your line will be different.  But make that choice knowing not only what others will think about you, but what your choices say about you, and knowing that you are good with who you've chosen to be.

And if that's the case, everyone else can fuck off.

Johnez

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Location: Southern California
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #147 on: May 17, 2019, 04:30:12 AM »
Trigger words and snowflakes...

I honestly chuckle at anyone calling us the snowflake generation. It's usually the older folks around me doing the complaining, either about us or the way "things used to be."

I'm a millennial, and of course that means I'm one of the fabled snowflake/participation trophy generation. But I did grow up when making fun of another kid meant you either called him gay, a retard, or a girl. Older people gave off color names to things like Brazil nuts, negotiating prices, and anyone who wore a turban. The thing of it is-yes it was funny, at the time. It's not anymore. It's not funny when priorities shift and horizons expand. I'm glad all that's changed. I'm glad we've moved beyond this kind of language as a society. If I have to be a bit more careful with my word choice, so be it-I consider myself lucky. We still live in a society that is constantly progressing. 50 years ago is not where I want to be.

Nick_Miller

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #148 on: May 17, 2019, 09:46:26 AM »
Trigger words and snowflakes...

I honestly chuckle at anyone calling us the snowflake generation. It's usually the older folks around me doing the complaining, either about us or the way "things used to be."

I'm a millennial, and of course that means I'm one of the fabled snowflake/participation trophy generation. But I did grow up when making fun of another kid meant you either called him gay, a retard, or a girl. Older people gave off color names to things like Brazil nuts, negotiating prices, and anyone who wore a turban. The thing of it is-yes it was funny, at the time. It's not anymore. It's not funny when priorities shift and horizons expand. I'm glad all that's changed. I'm glad we've moved beyond this kind of language as a society. If I have to be a bit more careful with my word choice, so be it-I consider myself lucky. We still live in a society that is constantly progressing. 50 years ago is not where I want to be.

+1 from a Gen Xer

I fail to understand the whole, "Well I had to deal with assholes when I was growing up, so kids these days should have to deal with it too" approach.

What's wrong with being kinder? What's wrong with making actual progress as a society? (Not that was necessarily are, based on current events, but you get my drift). Using "gay" as a pejorative phrase is not cool. Telling a kid he "throws like a girl" is not cool. Saying "boys will be boys" and ignoring their oafish behavior is not cool.

So yeah, watch your language. If you think there's a chance it's inappropriate, how hard is it to choose a substitute word that is less questionable? Don't we all have enough mastery of the English language to do that?

yakamashii

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Location: Japan
Re: "Trigger" words
« Reply #149 on: May 17, 2019, 07:19:36 PM »
Telling a kid he "throws like a girl" is not cool.

Yeah, instead you should tell him he "throws like he's never thrown before."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD5Xm5u7UDM