Author Topic: "Prosperity Gospel"  (Read 88379 times)

Tyson

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #250 on: September 08, 2015, 05:39:32 PM »
Maybe the word "magic" is open to too much equivocation??? That's an honest question, not a rhetorical statement. As a Christian, I would say I do believe in "magic" in the sense that prayers are answered, Jesus was raised from the dead, he turned water into wine, etc. These are supernatural events that have no scientific explanation. I get it why people would scoff at the idea and disbelieve it. But I don't believe in "magic" in the sense that a guy can actually saw a woman in half without killing her, or that there's a guy who can fly around the globe with reindeer delivering presents everywhere.

As you've said, and I agree, there are lots of phenomena that appear "magical" until science finds a way to explain them. To me there remain some phenomena which science is unlikely to ever explain like what happens to us after death, if anything, or where/when/how the universe came to be.

I don't know how else to explain why people could draw offense at equating magic and religious belief, and I don't think it's cognitive dissonance. I'll paraphrase Justice Stewart's quotation on pornography: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

If you were an alien and came to Earth and someone told you that some people believe in an all-powerful being that controls everything and turned water into wine and raised people from the dead (including himself) and healed the sick and made a couple fish and loaves feed thousands and was born from a virgin, etc. And that some other people believed in people getting sawed in half and being reassembled and people correctly identifying what card people picked and a special man that can stop at over a billion houses around the world in 24 hours, etc. You would think both of those are equally fanciful. In truth, the first set of beliefs is much more unbelievable.

But to you because you've grown up in the culture and have become accustomed to those first set of claims, they seem reasonable. And because everyone admits that we made up the 2nd set of claims they are not credible. But they are both equally reliant on magic.

Quote
the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces

I was raised as a Lutheran and Christian dogma didn't seem strange at all to me.  Not for a long time.  Now that I've been an atheist for a couple decades, I don't really think about it much, and it seems VERY odd the times I stumble across it in real life.  I was just thinking about Communion the other day and realized how strange the whole 'ritualized cannibalism' aspect is.  Some say it's merely symbolism.  Others say its actual transubstantiation and real flesh/blood you are consuming.  Which makes it even weirder (and grosser). 

GuitarStv

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #251 on: September 09, 2015, 07:27:02 AM »
A thing that always seemed appealing about Christianity to me is how it absorbed a lot of the customs and stories of much older religions.  It's a part of a vast tapestry of intertwining religions and stories.

Communion (eating flesh/drinking blood of God) - It was common and is much older than Christianity . . . Egyptians ate consecrated cakes that represented the flesh of Osiris, the religion of Mithra did the flesh (cake) and blood (wine) eating ritual, ancient south american cultures had similar practices.

Moses and the flood, Adam and Eve stories - both cribbed from the ancient Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh

Immaculate conception - remember Zeus?  Yeah, he begat Dionysus, Helen of Troy, and Heracles via this method long before Jesus was conceived.

Rising from the dead, ascending into heaven, coming back? - Romulus did that.  Before him the Greek Aristeas the Proconnesian did.

wenchsenior

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #252 on: September 09, 2015, 08:14:18 AM »
A thing that always seemed appealing about Christianity to me is how it absorbed a lot of the customs and stories of much older religions.  It's a part of a vast tapestry of intertwining religions and stories.

Communion (eating flesh/drinking blood of God) - It was common and is much older than Christianity . . . Egyptians ate consecrated cakes that represented the flesh of Osiris, the religion of Mithra did the flesh (cake) and blood (wine) eating ritual, ancient south american cultures had similar practices.

Moses and the flood, Adam and Eve stories - both cribbed from the ancient Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh

Immaculate conception - remember Zeus?  Yeah, he begat Dionysus, Helen of Troy, and Heracles via this method long before Jesus was conceived.

Rising from the dead, ascending into heaven, coming back? - Romulus did that.  Before him the Greek Aristeas the Proconnesian did.

Yes, the myths that I find most appealing within the Christian tradition are the ones that are most obviously cribbed from older stuff. Likewise, when looking for rituals to observe myself, I tend to like a lot of the Neopagan stuff, probably because those also are modeled on the REALLY old myths.

I find it incredible how many well-educated Christians I've talked to over the years that do not seem to know how many of their foundational rituals and traditions are nearly direct lifts from older ''pagan'' traditions. Do they not read classical literature or classical mythology at any point?

For that matter, my husband recently had a conversation with a highly educated, professional colleague who is a Baptist. The conversation touched on 'troubles in the Middle East' and at some point my husband made a passing reference to Islam being essentially an offshoot of Judaism, which emphasizes some of the same texts and ideas as both Judaism and Christianity. This guy was SHOCKED by this casual reference and flat out denied that Islam had ANYTHING WHATSOEVER in common, theologically, with Judaism or Christianity, or that it shared a common origin.

I mean, this dude was a professor, in his 50s. How do you go through your life as an educated person and not learn this stuff? Do you stuff your fingers in your ears, or what?

Re: the offense of the term "magic", how about using just "supernatural",  which is extremely definition-aly accurate and doesn't carry connotations of David Copperfield?

pbkmaine

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #253 on: September 09, 2015, 08:35:30 AM »
Islam, Judaism, Christianity: a Muslim colleague of mine refers to these three religions collectively as "The People of The Book". By "The Book", of course, he means the Old Testament.

Gin1984

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #254 on: September 09, 2015, 10:43:24 AM »
A thing that always seemed appealing about Christianity to me is how it absorbed a lot of the customs and stories of much older religions.  It's a part of a vast tapestry of intertwining religions and stories.

Communion (eating flesh/drinking blood of God) - It was common and is much older than Christianity . . . Egyptians ate consecrated cakes that represented the flesh of Osiris, the religion of Mithra did the flesh (cake) and blood (wine) eating ritual, ancient south american cultures had similar practices.

Moses and the flood, Adam and Eve stories - both cribbed from the ancient Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh

Immaculate conception - remember Zeus?  Yeah, he begat Dionysus, Helen of Troy, and Heracles via this method long before Jesus was conceived.

Rising from the dead, ascending into heaven, coming back? - Romulus did that.  Before him the Greek Aristeas the Proconnesian did.

Yes, the myths that I find most appealing within the Christian tradition are the ones that are most obviously cribbed from older stuff. Likewise, when looking for rituals to observe myself, I tend to like a lot of the Neopagan stuff, probably because those also are modeled on the REALLY old myths.

I find it incredible how many well-educated Christians I've talked to over the years that do not seem to know how many of their foundational rituals and traditions are nearly direct lifts from older ''pagan'' traditions. Do they not read classical literature or classical mythology at any point?

For that matter, my husband recently had a conversation with a highly educated, professional colleague who is a Baptist. The conversation touched on 'troubles in the Middle East' and at some point my husband made a passing reference to Islam being essentially an offshoot of Judaism, which emphasizes some of the same texts and ideas as both Judaism and Christianity. This guy was SHOCKED by this casual reference and flat out denied that Islam had ANYTHING WHATSOEVER in common, theologically, with Judaism or Christianity, or that it shared a common origin.

I mean, this dude was a professor, in his 50s. How do you go through your life as an educated person and not learn this stuff? Do you stuff your fingers in your ears, or what?

Re: the offense of the term "magic", how about using just "supernatural",  which is extremely definition-aly accurate and doesn't carry connotations of David Copperfield?
Ironically, pagans who have no problems with the term magic, have a serious issue with terming something supernatural.

firewalker

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #255 on: September 09, 2015, 10:57:10 AM »
You know all those anti-religion pro-atheism forums out there? I wonder what they talk about in their "Off Topic" sub forums.

sol

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #256 on: September 09, 2015, 11:08:47 AM »
You know all those anti-religion pro-atheism forums out there? I wonder what they talk about in their "Off Topic" sub forums.

I suspect your joke will be understood by few.

To elaborate by quoting another atheist, "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."  What would an internet forum devoted to not collecting stamps talk about in their OT subforum?  Pretty much has to be stamp collecting, I guess.  Similarly, atheism is less a belief system than it is a lack of one specific belief system.

Ironically, pagans who have no problems with the term magic, have a serious issue with terming something supernatural.

I like you Gin, you always have interesting things to say.  I admit a certain affinity for the idea that everything that exists should be called "natural", which makes "supernatural" kind of a meaningless word unless you're using it to mean "things that don't exist."  You and I may differ on what to include in those two categories, but it's still a tidy distinction.


thd7t

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #257 on: September 09, 2015, 11:39:52 AM »
You know all those anti-religion pro-atheism forums out there? I wonder what they talk about in their "Off Topic" sub forums.

I suspect your joke will be understood by few.

To elaborate by quoting another atheist, "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."  What would an internet forum devoted to not collecting stamps talk about in their OT subforum?  Pretty much has to be stamp collecting, I guess.  Similarly, atheism is less a belief system than it is a lack of one specific belief system.

Ironically, pagans who have no problems with the term magic, have a serious issue with terming something supernatural.

I like you Gin, you always have interesting things to say.  I admit a certain affinity for the idea that everything that exists should be called "natural", which makes "supernatural" kind of a meaningless word unless you're using it to mean "things that don't exist."  You and I may differ on what to include in those two categories, but it's still a tidy distinction.
Sol, what about elements that can be created, but do not exist in nature?  (Serious question)

sol

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #258 on: September 09, 2015, 11:43:45 AM »
Sol, what about elements that can be created, but do not exist in nature?  (Serious question)

As soon as it exists, it's natural.  Everything that can exist does exist, somewhere in the vast universe.  Just because something is uncommon or even absent here on earth that doesn't mean it's unnatural.

thd7t

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #259 on: September 09, 2015, 11:51:42 AM »
Sol, what about elements that can be created, but do not exist in nature?  (Serious question)

As soon as it exists, it's natural.  Everything that can exist does exist, somewhere in the vast universe.  Just because something is uncommon or even absent here on earth that doesn't mean it's unnatural.
I appreciate the infinite universe answer, but I believe that science is pretty good at describing the universe (not perfect, yet).  I think that there are theoretically elements that cannot exist without intervention.
A separate argument would regard assemblies created by people (or other beings).  Taken out of the context of their creators, those become "unnatural".  I may be getting off off topic, here, though.

DoubleDown

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #260 on: September 09, 2015, 11:59:31 AM »
But to you because you've grown up in the culture and have become accustomed to those first set of claims, they seem reasonable. And because everyone admits that we made up the 2nd set of claims they are not credible. But they are both equally reliant on magic.

Except that... I was NOT raised in a religious culture or household. I didn't convert to Christianity until I was nearly 15. Then I went to college and got a proper science training and degree, none of which conflicts with my beliefs.

I've acknowledged that depending on our usage of the word "magic", I believe in magic (like resurrection from death definitely sounds "magical" and supernatural by definition). At the same time, I understand how religious people would find that term offensive how it's been used here. When people ask, "Why should anyone be offended at that term" it sounds to me A LOT like when people say that exact thing after using words like "Redskins" or flying the Confederate flag. Why should You Mr. Black Guy be offended by that flag, it's just a symbol of our Southern heritage? ;-)

All the miracle stuff surrounding Jesus is believable once you accept the idea that he was not lying about who he said he was (again, I'd refer interested or skeptical parties to google the "Lord/Liar/Lunatic" question). Plus, the origin of the universe is already pretty freakin' mind-boggling. It's no more of a leap of faith for me to think an "I AM" that always was created the universe than the idea that it came from nowhere and nothing at all, or that there are infinite multiverses and block time, and so on. Those things are all equally implausible to me, yet here we are in the universe and there's no denying that.

brooklynguy

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #261 on: September 09, 2015, 12:15:35 PM »
I've acknowledged that depending on our usage of the word "magic", I believe in magic (like resurrection from death definitely sounds "magical" and supernatural by definition). At the same time, I understand how religious people would find that term offensive how it's been used here. When people ask, "Why should anyone be offended at that term" it sounds to me A LOT like when people say that exact thing after using words like "Redskins" or flying the Confederate flag. Why should You Mr. Black Guy be offended by that flag, it's just a symbol of our Southern heritage? ;-)

I think most of us have been using the terms "magic" and "supernatural" interchangeably in this thread to mean "unexplainable by the laws of nature" (or something along those lines).  Using this definition, religion is, by definition, magic or supernatural (which is why I could not see any reason for anyone to object to either of those terms beyond their desire to avoid cognitive dissonance, assuming they generally do not believe in magic or the supernatural).  Anyone who believes in omnipotent beings or talking animals or parting seas believes in the occurrence of phenomena that are unexplainable by the laws of nature, and thus believes in magic (as so defined).

We would encounter the same issue if we characterized religious phenomena as "impossible"; further to Sol's latest point, that word basically loses all meaning if the impossible can be made possible.  To use an example from the website quiz discussed upthread, can God make two plus two equal five?

sol

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #262 on: September 09, 2015, 12:21:33 PM »
A separate argument would regard assemblies created by people (or other beings).  Taken out of the context of their creators, those become "unnatural".  I may be getting off off topic, here, though.

I'm this context, I think it's important to remember that people are natural, too.  We're made of atoms that obey the same laws as galaxies.  We live and die just like microbes and stars.  Man-made elements are no more unnatural than ant hills.

All the miracle stuff surrounding Jesus is believable once you accept the idea that he was not lying about who he said he was

I struggle with the idea that anyone can satisfactorily resolve the logical discrepancies inherent to supernatural religion by just "accepting" that logic doesn't exist.  By this criteria, you could equally believability understand the universe by accepting that I, sol, am the son of God who created the universe yesterday and implanted in your head all memories you have from before today.  Just accept that idea as true and everything else follows as logically consistent because then magic is real and there are no rules anymore?

GuitarStv

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #263 on: September 09, 2015, 12:26:41 PM »
I've acknowledged that depending on our usage of the word "magic", I believe in magic (like resurrection from death definitely sounds "magical" and supernatural by definition). At the same time, I understand how religious people would find that term offensive how it's been used here. When people ask, "Why should anyone be offended at that term" it sounds to me A LOT like when people say that exact thing after using words like "Redskins" or flying the Confederate flag. Why should You Mr. Black Guy be offended by that flag, it's just a symbol of our Southern heritage? ;-)

I think most of us have been using the terms "magic" and "supernatural" interchangeably in this thread to mean "unexplainable by the laws of nature" (or something along those lines).  Using this definition, religion is, by definition, magic or supernatural (which is why I could not see any reason for anyone to object to either of those terms beyond their desire to avoid cognitive dissonance, assuming they generally do not believe in magic or the supernatural).  Anyone who believes in omnipotent beings or talking animals or parting seas believes in the occurrence of phenomena that are unexplainable by the laws of nature, and thus believes in magic (as so defined).

We would encounter the same issue if we characterized religious phenomena as "impossible"; further to Sol's latest point, that word basically loses all meaning if the impossible can be made possible.  To use an example from the website quiz discussed upthread, can God make two plus two equal five?

The beauty/scary aspect of faith is that He doesn't need to make 2+2=5.  His followers will just say that it's so under the direction of their spiritual leaders.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #264 on: September 09, 2015, 12:28:02 PM »
Except that... I was NOT raised in a religious culture

I thought you were American . . . ?

thd7t

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #265 on: September 09, 2015, 12:44:22 PM »
A separate argument would regard assemblies created by people (or other beings).  Taken out of the context of their creators, those become "unnatural".  I may be getting off off topic, here, though.

I'm this context, I think it's important to remember that people are natural, too.  We're made of atoms that obey the same laws as galaxies.  We live and die just like microbes and stars.  Man-made elements are no more unnatural than ant hills.
This is why I used the term "context of their creators".  To ignore context is to ignore how the universe functions unimpeded. 

forummm

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #266 on: September 09, 2015, 02:33:14 PM »
But to you because you've grown up in the culture and have become accustomed to those first set of claims, they seem reasonable. And because everyone admits that we made up the 2nd set of claims they are not credible. But they are both equally reliant on magic.

Except that... I was NOT raised in a religious culture or household. I didn't convert to Christianity until I was nearly 15. Then I went to college and got a proper science training and degree, none of which conflicts with my beliefs.

I've acknowledged that depending on our usage of the word "magic", I believe in magic (like resurrection from death definitely sounds "magical" and supernatural by definition). At the same time, I understand how religious people would find that term offensive how it's been used here. When people ask, "Why should anyone be offended at that term" it sounds to me A LOT like when people say that exact thing after using words like "Redskins" or flying the Confederate flag. Why should You Mr. Black Guy be offended by that flag, it's just a symbol of our Southern heritage? ;-)

All the miracle stuff surrounding Jesus is believable once you accept the idea that he was not lying about who he said he was (again, I'd refer interested or skeptical parties to google the "Lord/Liar/Lunatic" question). Plus, the origin of the universe is already pretty freakin' mind-boggling. It's no more of a leap of faith for me to think an "I AM" that always was created the universe than the idea that it came from nowhere and nothing at all, or that there are infinite multiverses and block time, and so on. Those things are all equally implausible to me, yet here we are in the universe and there's no denying that.

You were raised in the US right? So you heard about Jesus and about half the country claims to believe in him, while only very small children still believe in Santa. That's plenty of context to make Christian teachings seem more familiar and less implausible than if you were just introduced to them as an adult.

I was using the dictionary's definition of "magic" and quoted it for you. If you aren't using the dictionary's definition of words, you should expect to have problems in understanding what people mean by something.

The analogy to the confederate flag doesn't make sense. The entire point of the confederate flag was to stand for the right to enslave black people. And then it was brought back in the 60s to stand for the right to discriminate against black people. The word "magic" wasn't invented to say that Christians should be beaten and discriminated against. "Magic" is such a non-offensive term that a $200 billion company uses it as their catchphrase to get people to buy their products.

So as soon as you believe that Jesus was supernatural, it makes sense that he could do supernatural things. OK. And another word for supernatural is "magic".

DoubleDown

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #267 on: September 09, 2015, 03:11:51 PM »
And yet... several on this forum have said they found the use of the word "magic" to be offensive when describing their religion (I'm not really one of them, but I get it). The term magic is open to a lot of equivocation -- it's loaded. "My wife's kisses are magic" (nice). "Your religion is just a bunch of magic" (not nice).

Say what you will about my Confederate flag analogy, I think it was very apt. Isn't it clear? The phrase, "Why should it bother you? It's just a word" is often is the exact same phrase used whenever a racist defends his use of a word or symbol that others keep telling him/her is offensive. As in, people in this thread repeatedly object to the word "magic" as kind of offensive, then the users of the term say, "Why should it bother you, it's completely inoffensive." My great grandpa might have used that exact argument when calling people "Coloreds" in the 1990s, and Confederate flag flyers are using that exact same argument today. I say offensiveness is usually best left in the eyes of the receiver, not the giver.

It doesn't matter what word I use or how "correct" my literal use of the term, as I define it, may be. If I say to Bill, "your car is beautiful," and he says he's offended by the use of that word in describing his car because it's a tough guy car -- well, I'm not going to keep repeating it to him and explaining to him why he shouldn't be offended by it. I may not feel bad about having used the word the first time, because my intent was honorable, but I should feel bad if I keep doing it and telling him why he shouldn't be offended by it.

Here's another one: Maybe someone will call their wealthy boss who happens to be Jewish "the rich Jew" every time they see him/her. I'm sure when the boss is ready to throw them out on their ass for being so offensive (but factually accurate), the claim "You shouldn't be offended, it's an accurate description" will go over just fine. Or people calling us on this MMM site "cheap" because we save our money shouldn't draw any offense. Yet it's okay to say, "Wow, I got this coat on sale, it was so cheap!" You see how the words have different meaning (equivocation) based on their usage?

firewalker

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #268 on: September 09, 2015, 03:35:08 PM »
DoubleDown: Excellent explanation of how terms can be viewed as either acceptable or offensive. I'm going to keep this to help friends from foreign lands with their use of American idioms. Thanks again.

sol

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #269 on: September 09, 2015, 03:36:37 PM »
I'm not claiming that I don't understand why people find the word offensive.  I'm saying that my use of the word is less offensive than the belief being described.

If Obama went on national tv and said he was going to change his Iran policy because his horoscope told him to, there would be national outrage.  How dare he rely on such obvious bullshit when making such an important decision?  Yet when he says he prayed on the issue and Jesus offered him guidance, everyone smiles approvingly and talks about how pious he is.  It's the exact same kind of reliance on supernatural magic, and I use the word deliberately to highlight that fact.  We should expect more from our leaders than children's fairy tales.

brooklynguy

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #270 on: September 09, 2015, 03:50:32 PM »
DoubleDown, I think the difference is that people were using the word "magic" to refer to the magical/supernatural/unexplainable-by-natural-laws nature of religion.  One shouldn't call a black person "colored" if that term is considered offensive when there are nonoffensive alternatives available (like "black").  But if one wants to refer to the fact that religion is unexplainable-by-natural-laws, how else can one do it other than to say that it is "magic" (or another synonym for that word)?  It's not that people were taking offense to "magic" as a derogatory label, it's that they were taking offense to the use of the word "magic" to describe the unexplainable-by-natural-laws character of religion (probably because they ascribe a connotation of falsity to the word magic, but that's the entire point--sol (and forummm and I and others) are saying that we find the magical aspects of religion to be false, because they are magical; how else can we make that point without being offensive?  Are we precluded from making that point because people will be offended by it?)

firewalker

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #271 on: September 09, 2015, 08:02:16 PM »
Ok. It's magic and offensive, just like abiogenesis. Whoa! Look at that time! Well, I think I'll check out the "ask a" sub forum and call it a night.

Annamal

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #272 on: September 09, 2015, 08:13:04 PM »
A thing that always seemed appealing about Christianity to me is how it absorbed a lot of the customs and stories of much older religions.  It's a part of a vast tapestry of intertwining religions and stories.

Communion (eating flesh/drinking blood of God) - It was common and is much older than Christianity . . . Egyptians ate consecrated cakes that represented the flesh of Osiris, the religion of Mithra did the flesh (cake) and blood (wine) eating ritual, ancient south american cultures had similar practices.

Moses and the flood, Adam and Eve stories - both cribbed from the ancient Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh

Immaculate conception - remember Zeus?  Yeah, he begat Dionysus, Helen of Troy, and Heracles via this method long before Jesus was conceived.

Rising from the dead, ascending into heaven, coming back? - Romulus did that.  Before him the Greek Aristeas the Proconnesian did.

Our 7th form classics teacher was fond of using the Lord's prayer to illustrate the form that Roman prayers to *all* their deities tended to take.

Cressida

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #273 on: September 09, 2015, 09:41:20 PM »
Sol, you say belief in the supernatural part about religion is ridiculous, yet you claim Jesus even existing as a person is a myth like Santa Claus. Why should anyone believe your scientific or academic reasoning on the matter when you deny mainstream scholarly/scientific opinion? It sounds to me much like climate science deniers.
...  I have no problem with the belief that Jesus was a real person, as that's a question that won't ever be definitively answered unless we find an occupied tomb.
Ah, my mistake then. I thought you were denying even that, thanks for clarifying.

It's true that you usually can't prove a negative, and therefore the question will likely not ever be definitively answered. For anyone very interested* in this topic, I can recommend this:

http://www.amazon.com/Historicity-Jesus-Might-Reason-Doubt/dp/1909697494/ref=sr_1_1

The author concludes that the probability that Jesus existed in history is around 1 in 12,000. I found it convincing.

But yes, it's a fringe position. Unsurprisingly.


*Literally, if you're very interested in the topic. It's 600 pages long.

JohnnyDollar

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #274 on: September 10, 2015, 03:04:28 AM »

I struggle with the idea that anyone can satisfactorily resolve the logical discrepancies inherent to supernatural religion by just "accepting" that logic doesn't exist.  By this criteria, you could equally believability understand the universe by accepting that I, sol, am the son of God who created the universe yesterday and implanted in your head all memories you have from before today.  Just accept that idea as true and everything else follows as logically consistent because then magic is real and there are no rules anymore?
Hail to the Sun God
S/He sure is a fun God
SOL! SOL! SOL!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 03:07:42 AM by JohnnyDollar »

DoubleDown

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #275 on: September 10, 2015, 08:04:26 AM »
I struggle with the idea that anyone can satisfactorily resolve the logical discrepancies inherent to supernatural religion by just "accepting" that logic doesn't exist.  By this criteria, you could equally believability understand the universe by accepting that I, sol, am the son of God who created the universe yesterday and implanted in your head all memories you have from before today.  Just accept that idea as true and everything else follows as logically consistent because then magic is real and there are no rules anymore?

There's no logical discrepancy. This argument is logically sound, no? If A, then B. A. Therefore B.

So, both these arguments are logically valid:

- If Jesus is God, then he can do any kind of miracle
- Jesus is God
- Therefore, Jesus can (and could have done) any kind of miracle

- If Sol is God, then he can do anything including putting memories in your head, rearranging the rules, etc.
- Sol is God
- Therefore, anything you think you know about anything may be a complete fabrication from Sol

Since both these arguments are valid, the only area for debate is the truth of the premises about whether or not Jesus or Sol are actually God. It's not illogical to believe in miracles if you believe in God, it's only a question of whether there is ample evidence to believe the premise that Jesus was God, or if Sol is God. I haven't seen evidence (yet) that Sol is God, but I'll try to keep an open mind! You already have one follower above, ha.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #276 on: September 10, 2015, 08:20:05 AM »

If Obama went on national tv and said he was going to change his Iran policy because his horoscope told him to, there would be national outrage.  How dare he rely on such obvious bullshit when making such an important decision?  Yet when he says he prayed on the issue and Jesus offered him guidance, everyone smiles approvingly and talks about how pious he is.  It's the exact same kind of reliance on supernatural magic, and I use the word deliberately to highlight that fact.  We should expect more from our leaders than children's fairy tales.

This kind of reminded me of Bill Burr's latest stand-up special ("I'm Sorry You Feel That Way").  In it, he describes how he lives in California and that Scientology is big there.  He said he thought Scientology sounded preposterous (something like "this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard"), and then it forced him to review his own Catholic beliefs, leading him to renounce his religion.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #277 on: September 10, 2015, 08:47:29 AM »
There's no logical discrepancy.

Belief in magic is not so much a logical discrepancy as it is the abandonment of logic.  The existence of magic means the nonexistence of the rules of logic.  Things could and would be simultaneously possible and impossible.  Two plus two could equal five.  Consider the omnipotence paradox:  if God can magically do anything, then he can create a task that he himself is unable to perform.

The ability of Jesus or Sol to perform what appear to us to be miracles because they have advanced powers which are beyond our current understanding but which are ultimately explainable by the laws of nature is logically conceivable (but is also not religion).

The ability of Jesus or Sol to perform miracles because magic exists is extralogical (and constitutes religion).

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #278 on: September 10, 2015, 09:33:53 AM »
One argument for the existence of magic is the Bostrom simulation argument, which says that we may be living in a computer program. If so, "magic" would just be the people in the "outer world" tinkering with the program or injecting arbitrary changes into it or generally modifying it in such a way so as to deviate from the normal rules of nature.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 09:39:49 AM by Cathy »

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #279 on: September 10, 2015, 09:43:28 AM »
Can't buy that one.  No error checking in any computer program is that good, and I'm constantly yelling shit like DROP_DATABASE;.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #280 on: September 10, 2015, 10:17:47 AM »
The ability of Jesus or Sol ...

Man, I am moving UP in the world.  Can you judge a man by the company he keeps?

Scientology sounded preposterous (something like "this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard"), and then it forced him to review his own Catholic beliefs, leading him to renounce his religion.

This is the secret real reason LRH wrote Dianetics.  To help the world self-sort into rational people and gullible people.  He'd probably be appalled at the results, like "wait I actually have millions of followers?"  John Oliver apparently has the same problem on a smaller scale, the rat faced bastard.

There's no logical discrepancy. This argument is logically sound, no? If A, then B. A. Therefore B.

If-p-then-q rules don't work so well if p is "the rules of logic cannot be used to solve if-p-then-q problems."

Which is the fundamental problem in these discussions, I think. People of faith do not want to use reason and logic to understand the universe, they want to use faith.  They will deny reason and logic as their opening move, the starting point of all subsequent discussion.  It's hard to have an honest discussion when the two sides are using different rules for how to determine who is right.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #281 on: September 10, 2015, 01:12:25 PM »
The ability of Jesus or Sol ...

Man, I am moving UP in the world.  Can you judge a man by the company he keeps?

I'd be careful there--the last time Jesus was judged it didn't end up too well for him.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #282 on: September 10, 2015, 01:16:34 PM »
I've acknowledged that depending on our usage of the word "magic", I believe in magic (like resurrection from death definitely sounds "magical" and supernatural by definition). At the same time, I understand how religious people would find that term offensive how it's been used here. When people ask, "Why should anyone be offended at that term" it sounds to me A LOT like when people say that exact thing after using words like "Redskins" or flying the Confederate flag. Why should You Mr. Black Guy be offended by that flag, it's just a symbol of our Southern heritage? ;-)

I think most of us have been using the terms "magic" and "supernatural" interchangeably in this thread to mean "unexplainable by the laws of nature" (or something along those lines).  Using this definition, religion is, by definition, magic or supernatural (which is why I could not see any reason for anyone to object to either of those terms beyond their desire to avoid cognitive dissonance, assuming they generally do not believe in magic or the supernatural).  Anyone who believes in omnipotent beings or talking animals or parting seas believes in the occurrence of phenomena that are unexplainable by the laws of nature, and thus believes in magic (as so defined).

We would encounter the same issue if we characterized religious phenomena as "impossible"; further to Sol's latest point, that word basically loses all meaning if the impossible can be made possible.  To use an example from the website quiz discussed upthread, can God make two plus two equal five?
I meant to come back and explain why pagans find magic unoffensive but dislike supernatural.  Our beliefs are a nature religion therefore to say something is beyond the laws of nature is against our religion.  Magic is considered, to us, perfectly natural as much as walking to another room would be to "normal" people.  Keep in mind that giving someone a "potion" of herbs was once called magic. 

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #283 on: September 10, 2015, 01:55:16 PM »
I meant to come back and explain why pagans find magic unoffensive but dislike supernatural.  Our beliefs are a nature religion therefore to say something is beyond the laws of nature is against our religion.  Magic is considered, to us, perfectly natural as much as walking to another room would be to "normal" people.  Keep in mind that giving someone a "potion" of herbs was once called magic.

This discussion is truly fascinating.  So many of the issues debated in this forum ultimately boil down to semantics, but this one is about semantics on its face.  "Magic" and "supernatural" are both English words (even though they have etymological origins in other languages) that have certain meanings in the English language, which is presumably foreign to your religion.  If, as we are using them, those terms have identical meanings, then, absent some non-identical derogatory or disparaging connotation, how can one be offensive but not the other?  "Magic" (as we are using the word) means "beyond the laws of nature" to the same extent that "supernatural" does, so shouldn't you take equal offense to it?

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #284 on: September 10, 2015, 02:21:47 PM »
I meant to come back and explain why pagans find magic unoffensive but dislike supernatural.  Our beliefs are a nature religion therefore to say something is beyond the laws of nature is against our religion.  Magic is considered, to us, perfectly natural as much as walking to another room would be to "normal" people.  Keep in mind that giving someone a "potion" of herbs was once called magic.

This discussion is truly fascinating.  So many of the issues debated in this forum ultimately boil down to semantics, but this one is about semantics on its face.  "Magic" and "supernatural" are both English words (even though they have etymological origins in other languages) that have certain meanings in the English language, which is presumably foreign to your religion.  If, as we are using them, those terms have identical meanings, then, absent some non-identical derogatory or disparaging connotation, how can one be offensive but not the other?  "Magic" (as we are using the word) means "beyond the laws of nature" to the same extent that "supernatural" does, so shouldn't you take equal offense to it?
But magic did not originally come from beyond nature.  That is a Jewish (which the Christians then took) mythology construct.  If you look at the term magical thinking which is used academically it does not mean beyond the laws of nature.  And in some ways that is why using the term as only a judeo-christian would but then using it as an overarching term incorrectly is a problem and offensive.  Frankly, most pagans are so used to it that it causes an eye roll not offense, but I thought people here would find that information interesting as a contrast to the Christians considering magic offensive.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #285 on: September 10, 2015, 03:26:28 PM »
...If you look at the term magical thinking which is used academically it does not mean beyond the laws of nature....

As far as I know, that's pretty much exactly what "magical thinking" means, "academically" or otherwise. It means reasoning that relies on the existence of magical, i.e. supernatural, forces (perhaps implicitly). For example, if somebody is a gambling addict and believes that they are "due" for a big win because they've lost many times in a row, that would be an example of "magical thinking" because it presupposes the existences of supernatural forces (even though the person has not explicitly stated it that way). See also James et al., Magical Thinking and Consumer Coping, Journal of Consumer Research 632 (December 2011) ("Magical thinking is often regarded as a cognitive distortion, whereby consumers irrationally invoke mystical, supernatural forces to cope with stressful situations"); Carhart-Harris, Psychedelic Drugs, Magical Thinking and Psychosis, Proceedings of the British Neuropsychiatry Association (26th Annual General Meeting, 2003) ("magical thinking [is] fallacious thinking in which reality-testing is disavowed"); Rozin and Nemeroff, "Sympathetic magical thinking: the contagion and similarity 'heuristics'" in Griffin et al., The psychology of intuitive judgment, 201 (2002) (magical thinking is reasoning that "promote[s] beliefs about the world that are generally contrary to current scientific beliefs"); etc.

The meaning of "magical" in "magical thinking" is clearly the same as the normal meaning of "magical". That said, you do have a point about there being a distinction between the meaning of "magic" as in "beyond current scientific understanding" compared to "beyond the laws of nature"; either of those meanings is standard English and they are not equivalent (but there's nothing special about the use of "magical" in "magical thinking").

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #286 on: September 10, 2015, 04:05:39 PM »
I frequently check out courses and books on take from my local library.  One of the better courses was "Religions of the Axial Age", and the professor broke religion up into 2 categories, the first would be mostly the primitive religions that were more about man's place within the natural world, and most worship/prayer/sacrifices were done to ensure survival, a good crop, that the seasons proceeded in order, etc....

The second category sprung up with the advent of Zoroastrianism.  These religions were not concerned with 'greasing the wheels of nature' but were focused on the afterlife and on individual (or familial) salvation in the after life.  Interestingly enough, these religions only popped up after we had become firmly agrarian and moved away from hunter/gatherer lifestyles, and thus were able to actually store food to fend off starvation, making us less dependent on the goodness of the natural world.

When put in to this framework, it's fascinating to me that religion just didn't die out after the switch to an agrarian society.  I can understand that for hunter/gatherers that having a blessing from a god has a direct impact on your immediate survival.  You'd think we'd move beyond that type of thinking once that level of precariousness was removed.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #287 on: September 10, 2015, 04:33:10 PM »
Chances are, those offended are merely viewing the word "magic" as a reference to things of the occult, demons, satan, etc. While "miracle" is typically used with reference to the action of holy power. In other words, it is all about the source of the superhuman activity. Could that be the issue?

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #288 on: September 10, 2015, 04:34:27 PM »
I frequently check out courses and books on take from my local library.  One of the better courses was "Religions of the Axial Age", and the professor broke religion up into 2 categories, the first would be mostly the primitive religions that were more about man's place within the natural world, and most worship/prayer/sacrifices were done to ensure survival, a good crop, that the seasons proceeded in order, etc....

The second category sprung up with the advent of Zoroastrianism.  These religions were not concerned with 'greasing the wheels of nature' but were focused on the afterlife and on individual (or familial) salvation in the after life.  Interestingly enough, these religions only popped up after we had become firmly agrarian and moved away from hunter/gatherer lifestyles, and thus were able to actually store food to fend off starvation, making us less dependent on the goodness of the natural world.

When put in to this framework, it's fascinating to me that religion just didn't die out after the switch to an agrarian society.  I can understand that for hunter/gatherers that having a blessing from a god has a direct impact on your immediate survival.  You'd think we'd move beyond that type of thinking once that level of precariousness was removed.

I hear you.  Then again, people still have a fear of death.  Those religions give you a focus other than on the reality, which is the inevitability of becoming worm food. 

sol

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #289 on: September 10, 2015, 05:00:52 PM »
inevitability of becoming worm food.

Not me.  I'm going to be star fuel.  And a double sided dildo.  And a redwood tree, and a puppy's nose, and an ocean wave, and a black hole.  My matter, indestructible, will be returned to the great universe from whence it came.  Which, yes, probably means worm food somewhere along the line, too.

Science is awesome, like literally awe inspiring.  Every atom in your body bigger than helium was formed inside of a long dead star that exploded across the vastness of space in a violent light show of cosmic proportions.  Every breath you take contains molecules that were once part of Hitler, and a T-rex, and a comet.  Long after you are dead and gone, the last human to ever live and die will contain literal physical parts of your body. 

We never really die, we just reorganize.  Don't fear the worm food.

edit: sort of back on topic, Joel Osteen's message about a crucified carpenter and his friends is pretty drab, compared to the truth.  The universe is mind-bendingly amazing, even without pretty stained glass windows and incense, but for most of human history we had to search for existential context in fairy tales because we didn't know any better.  I feel pretty lucky to live in a time when we're finally starting to understand the truth about where we came from and what it all means.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 06:48:47 PM by sol »

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #290 on: September 10, 2015, 05:08:38 PM »
I hear you.  Then again, people still have a fear of death.  Those religions give you a focus other than on the reality, which is the inevitability of becoming worm food.

Fear of death is strong, but it's also transient. Which is why scare tactics don't always work long term for people who want to quit smoking or lose weight. So fear of death is probably working in conjunction with another factor. I'd suggest the appeal of never being alone inside your own head. That little nattering voice is going to someone, not just circling inside.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #291 on: September 10, 2015, 05:12:05 PM »
...If you look at the term magical thinking which is used academically it does not mean beyond the laws of nature....

As far as I know, that's pretty much exactly what "magical thinking" means, "academically" or otherwise. It means reasoning that relies on the existence of magical, i.e. supernatural, forces (perhaps implicitly). For example, if somebody is a gambling addict and believes that they are "due" for a big win because they've lost many times in a row, that would be an example of "magical thinking" because it presupposes the existences of supernatural forces (even though the person has not explicitly stated it that way). See also James et al., Magical Thinking and Consumer Coping, Journal of Consumer Research 632 (December 2011) ("Magical thinking is often regarded as a cognitive distortion, whereby consumers irrationally invoke mystical, supernatural forces to cope with stressful situations"); Carhart-Harris, Psychedelic Drugs, Magical Thinking and Psychosis, Proceedings of the British Neuropsychiatry Association (26th Annual General Meeting, 2003) ("magical thinking [is] fallacious thinking in which reality-testing is disavowed"); Rozin and Nemeroff, "Sympathetic magical thinking: the contagion and similarity 'heuristics'" in Griffin et al., The psychology of intuitive judgment, 201 (2002) (magical thinking is reasoning that "promote[s] beliefs about the world that are generally contrary to current scientific beliefs"); etc.

The meaning of "magical" in "magical thinking" is clearly the same as the normal meaning of "magical". That said, you do have a point about there being a distinction between the meaning of "magic" as in "beyond current scientific understanding" compared to "beyond the laws of nature"; either of those meanings is standard English and they are not equivalent (but there's nothing special about the use of "magical" in "magical thinking").
No, magical thinking is used as a short hand for the mind controlling outside effects or people associating correlation with causation.  At one point the placebo effect would have been termed magical.  Actually even now we cannot fully explain the cause of the placebo effect.  But that is completely natural, not supernatural.   

Tyson

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #292 on: September 10, 2015, 05:31:04 PM »
inevitability of becoming worm food.

Not me.  I'm going to be star fuel.  And a double sided dildo.  And a redwood tree, and a puppy's nose, and an ocean wave, and a black hole.  My matter, indestructible, will be returned to the great universe from whence it came.  Which, yes, probably means worm food somewhere along the line, too.

Science is awesome, like literally awe inspiring.  Every atom in your body (bigger than helium) was formed inside of a long dead star that exploded across the vastness of space in a violent light show of cosmic proportions.  Every breath you take contains molecules that were once part of Hitler, and a T-rex, and a comet.  Long after you are dead and gone, the last human to ever live and die will contain literal physical parts of your body. 

We never really die, we just reorganize.  Don't fear the worm food.

edit: sort of back on topic, Joel Osteen's message about a crucified carpenter and his friends is pretty drab, compared to the truth.  The universe is mind-bendingly amazing, even without pretty stained glass windows and incense, but for most of human history we had to search for existential context in fairy tales because we didn't know any better.  I feel pretty lucky to live in a time when we're finally starting to understand the truth about where we came from and what it all means.

Yes, this whole awesome scale of the universe was beautifully illustrated by another Great Courses series of lectures called Big History.  He takes you all the way back to the big bang, the formation of stars, the heating of stars, the creation of new elements inside of now-hot stars, the expulsion of these new elements into space, the gradual formation of planets, then the genesis of life, then the introduction of complexity to life, etc, all the way to modern day, and even some predictions about the future.  Very cool stuff!

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #293 on: September 10, 2015, 05:31:47 PM »
inevitability of becoming worm food.

Not me.  I'm going to be star fuel.  And a double sided dildo.  And a redwood tree, and a puppy's nose, and an ocean wave, and a black hole.  My matter, indestructible, will be returned to the great universe from whence it came.  Which, yes, probably means worm food somewhere along the line, too.

Science is awesome, like literally awe inspiring.  Every atom in your body (bigger than helium) was formed inside of a long dead star that exploded across the vastness of space in a violent light show of cosmic proportions.  Every breath you take contains molecules that were once part of Hitler, and a T-rex, and a comet.  Long after you are dead and gone, the last human to ever live and die will contain literal physical parts of your body. 

We never really die, we just reorganize.  Don't fear the worm food.


That was so inspiring, Sol!  It makes me feel so much better about dying (especially the double-sided dildo part).  Maybe you really are Jesus...

wordnerd

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #294 on: September 10, 2015, 05:32:07 PM »
inevitability of becoming worm food.

Not me.  I'm going to be star fuel.  And a double sided dildo.  And a redwood tree, and a puppy's nose, and an ocean wave, and a black hole.  My matter, indestructible, will be returned to the great universe from whence it came.  Which, yes, probably means worm food somewhere along the line, too.

Science is awesome, like literally awe inspiring.  Every atom in your body (bigger than helium) was formed inside of a long dead star that exploded across the vastness of space in a violent light show of cosmic proportions.  Every breath you take contains molecules that were once part of Hitler, and a T-rex, and a comet.  Long after you are dead and gone, the last human to ever live and die will contain literal physical parts of your body. 

We never really die, we just reorganize.  Don't fear the worm food.

edit: sort of back on topic, Joel Osteen's message about a crucified carpenter and his friends is pretty drab, compared to the truth.  The universe is mind-bendingly amazing, even without pretty stained glass windows and incense, but for most of human history we had to search for existential context in fairy tales because we didn't know any better.  I feel pretty lucky to live in a time when we're finally starting to understand the truth about where we came from and what it all means.

I love this. Thank you.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #295 on: September 10, 2015, 06:47:07 PM »
inevitability of becoming worm food.

Not me.  I'm going to be star fuel.  And a double sided dildo.  And a redwood tree, and a puppy's nose, and an ocean wave, and a black hole.  My matter, indestructible, will be returned to the great universe from whence it came.  Which, yes, probably means worm food somewhere along the line, too.

Science is awesome, like literally awe inspiring.  Every atom in your body (bigger than helium) was formed inside of a long dead star that exploded across the vastness of space in a violent light show of cosmic proportions.  Every breath you take contains molecules that were once part of Hitler, and a T-rex, and a comet.  Long after you are dead and gone, the last human to ever live and die will contain literal physical parts of your body. 

We never really die, we just reorganize.  Don't fear the worm food.




That was so inspiring, Sol!  It makes me feel so much better about dying (especially the double-sided dildo part).  Maybe you really are Jesus...

Is it just me or are we seeing the birth of a new religion right here in front of us ("the church of star matter and the reincarnated dildo" perhaps)?


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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #296 on: September 10, 2015, 06:55:15 PM »
No, magical thinking is used as a short hand for the mind controlling outside effects or people associating correlation with causation....

First, that is basically a subset of the more general definition I gave above.

Second, I cited three scholarly works for my definition. You've just responded with "no". My citations establish that the meaning of "magical thinking" in academia is as I described. Your specific example is just one way of thinking magically. I am prepared to accept that some authors use the term in a restricted sense (although you have not cited those authors), but that wouldn't change the fact that the term has a well-known more general meaning, both "academically" and otherwise (as evidenced by my multiple academic citations to that effect).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 07:00:37 PM by Cathy »

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #297 on: September 10, 2015, 08:36:39 PM »
inevitability of becoming worm food.

Not me.  I'm going to be star fuel.  And a double sided dildo.  And a redwood tree, and a puppy's nose, and an ocean wave, and a black hole.  My matter, indestructible, will be returned to the great universe from whence it came.  Which, yes, probably means worm food somewhere along the line, too.

Science is awesome, like literally awe inspiring.  Every atom in your body bigger than helium was formed inside of a long dead star that exploded across the vastness of space in a violent light show of cosmic proportions.  Every breath you take contains molecules that were once part of Hitler, and a T-rex, and a comet.  Long after you are dead and gone, the last human to ever live and die will contain literal physical parts of your body. 

We never really die, we just reorganize.  Don't fear the worm food.

edit: sort of back on topic, Joel Osteen's message about a crucified carpenter and his friends is pretty drab, compared to the truth.  The universe is mind-bendingly amazing, even without pretty stained glass windows and incense, but for most of human history we had to search for existential context in fairy tales because we didn't know any better.  I feel pretty lucky to live in a time when we're finally starting to understand the truth about where we came from and what it all means.

YES.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #298 on: September 10, 2015, 08:47:34 PM »
"Starting to understand..." Well put. The more the sciences reveal, the more we realize how little we really know. Very, very little.

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Re: "Prosperity Gospel"
« Reply #299 on: September 10, 2015, 09:26:03 PM »
We never really die, we just reorganize.  Don't fear the worm food.

That was certainly an inspiring "fact is better than fiction" pep talk, but personally I don't take much comfort in knowing that my matter will outlive myself.  Worm food or star fuel, what my atoms do when I cease to be is all the same to me.  In fact, like the wooden planks of the ship of Theseus, the atoms that make up me continuously come and go already, so the particular collection of atoms that constitutes my body when I shuffle off this mortal coil will no more be uniquely me than that which does so today or that which did so yesterday.  Science is indeed awesome, but it explains the lack of meaning of our lives, not its presence.