$2000 Individual Payments - where does this end?

[OtherJen]

This entire thread literally made my head explode.

Also Mormons very much do consider themselves christians.  I know whitetrashcash vehemently disagrees, but that's how the mormons described themselves, and I'm not sure why WTC has any more authority than 16 Million mormons.

Sure, Mormons consider themselves Christians. That is not in dispute. It's just that Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christians because they don't think Jesus is God, which is essential to the religion of Christianity. Billions of Christians believe this is essential to Christianity because that's how the religion has been defined for two thousand years.

Mormons can think whatever they want -- thanks to the Age of Enlightenment -- but that doesn't mean they are right.

This is something that causes friction between Christians and others. Christians believe that some things are right and some things are wrong. Non-Christians often believe that everything is right if you feel it is so. The major philosophy that follows from that reasoning is post-modernism.

No, we don't.

[WhiteTrashCash]

This entire thread literally made my head explode.

Also Mormons very much do consider themselves christians.  I know whitetrashcash vehemently disagrees, but that's how the mormons described themselves, and I'm not sure why WTC has any more authority than 16 Million mormons.

Sure, Mormons consider themselves Christians. That is not in dispute. It's just that Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christians because they don't think Jesus is God, which is essential to the religion of Christianity. Billions of Christians believe this is essential to Christianity because that's how the religion has been defined for two thousand years.

Mormons can think whatever they want -- thanks to the Age of Enlightenment -- but that doesn't mean they are right.

This is something that causes friction between Christians and others. Christians believe that some things are right and some things are wrong. Non-Christians often believe that everything is right if you feel it is so. The major philosophy that follows from that reasoning is post-modernism.

No, we don't.

I removed the post because that didn’t come out quite the way I meant it.

[GuitarStv]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

[WhiteTrashCash]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

[Kris]

This entire thread literally made my head explode.

Also Mormons very much do consider themselves christians.  I know whitetrashcash vehemently disagrees, but that's how the mormons described themselves, and I'm not sure why WTC has any more authority than 16 Million mormons.

Yep, my Jehovah’s Witness mother-in-law definitely considers herself a Christian.

[WhiteTrashCash]

This entire thread literally made my head explode.

Also Mormons very much do consider themselves christians.  I know whitetrashcash vehemently disagrees, but that's how the mormons described themselves, and I'm not sure why WTC has any more authority than 16 Million mormons.

Yep, my Jehovah’s Witness mother-in-law definitely considers herself a Christian.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses are an interesting group, because they use a version of the Bible, but they made a lot of modern changes to it to suit their beliefs. They literally changed what the text said in many places because they wanted to. They also have their own name for God that they wrote into their Bible where it never was before, even dating back to the codices we have from the early age of Christianity. They don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus and they are sort of like a faith that existed around 300-400 AD called Arianism which broke away from Early Christianity and had a lot of followers for a couple centuries.

[GuitarStv]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

[I'm a red panda]

The last time this situation happened tens of millions of people died. Charging the credit card a bit is preferable to death on that kind of scale. At least that's what I think because I'm Christian.

Wait what?

Without getting into the argument of who is and isn't a Christian (actually, I will- JW and LDS both are), isn't that the opposite of how you should feel?

Don't fear death
Psalm 23:4
Revelation 21:4
Hebrews 2:15
John 11:25-26
Psalm 116:15

I think I could go on for quite awhile.


And...as for charging a credit card...hmmm....
Romans 13:8
Proverbs 22:26
Deuteronomy 28:12
Deuteronomy 15:6

[WhiteTrashCash]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

[GuitarStv]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

[I'm a red panda]

My parents both worked throughout my childhood and from the age of 7 I stayed home alone after school from 3.30 to 6.00 every day. It was fun. My parents would leave some microwaved snacks out, I'd eat them and read or watch TV. :-) Or when I was 8 or 9 I'd ride a bike with the neighbourhood kids. Not saying every child should be left home alone, but our nanny state standards these days are kind of depressing. Children used to walk themselves home from school and look after each other (while the parents were out) all the time. Particularly now when it's so easy to borrow books or buy a cheap e-book, it can't not be an option for everyone.

Should people just leave microwaved snacks out for their baby and toddlers too? 
Also, we aren't talking 2 1/2 hours, we are talking 9 or more hours a day.  What do you expect a single parent to do except quit their jobs in these cases?

[WhiteTrashCash]

The last time this situation happened tens of millions of people died. Charging the credit card a bit is preferable to death on that kind of scale. At least that's what I think because I'm Christian.

Wait what?

Without getting into the argument of who is and isn't a Christian (actually, I will- JW and LDS both are), isn't that the opposite of how you should feel?

Don't fear death
Psalm 23:4
Revelation 21:4
Hebrews 2:15
John 11:25-26
Psalm 116:15

I think I could go on for quite awhile.


And...as for charging a credit card...hmmm....
Romans 13:8
Proverbs 22:26
Deuteronomy 28:12
Deuteronomy 15:6

Not fearing death isn’t the same thing as wanting people to die, so I don’t understand what you are getting at with that.

Romans 13:8 says you should forgive debts, which I agree with which is why I support student loan debt forgiveness. The Old Testament laws don’t apply to Christians because we are Christian and not Jewish. At least that’s how covenant Christians see it.

[I'm a red panda]

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

You pick the ones that serve your predetermined beliefs.

[WhiteTrashCash]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

We have about 1800 years of scholarship about many of the questions you may have. It’s important not to quote things out of context — Christians make that mistake too.

[WhiteTrashCash]

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

You pick the ones that serve your predetermined beliefs.

Some people do and that’s very sad.

[sherr]

The last time this situation happened tens of millions of people died. Charging the credit card a bit is preferable to death on that kind of scale. At least that's what I think because I'm Christian.

Wait what?

Without getting into the argument of who is and isn't a Christian (actually, I will- JW and LDS both are), isn't that the opposite of how you should feel?

Don't fear death
Psalm 23:4
Revelation 21:4
Hebrews 2:15
John 11:25-26
Psalm 116:15

I think I could go on for quite awhile.


And...as for charging a credit card...hmmm....
Romans 13:8
Proverbs 22:26
Deuteronomy 28:12
Deuteronomy 15:6

There's a world of difference between not fearing death yourself and refusing to lift a pinky finger to help save your neighbor's life, just as there's a world of difference between being an honest man who pays their debts and refusing to have a mortgage or something.

This type of discussion is just as useless when you do it as when WTC does it and when GuitarStv does it. You can't tell someone else what their religious beliefs are.

Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man.

[GuitarStv]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

We have about 1800 years of scholarship about many of the questions you may have. It’s important not to quote things out of context — Christians make that mistake too.

Every different Christian sect (including the ones you don't consider Christian) has come to their own alternate interpretation, some quite different.  I take it from your response that you just follow what the people at the head of your church tell you?

[WhiteTrashCash]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

We have about 1800 years of scholarship about many of the questions you may have. It’s important not to quote things out of context — Christians make that mistake too.

Every different Christian sect (including the ones you don't consider Christian) has come to their own alternate interpretation, some quite different.  I take it from your response that you just follow what the people at the head of your church tell you?

Like I said, there’s about 1800 years of scholarship about Christianity. There are basic core beliefs that determine who is Christian and who isn’t. I have nothing against people who aren’t Christian calling themselves Christians, because people have the freedom to say whatever they want. I just don’t have to agree with them against 1800 years of scholarship. I trust the centuries of scholarship over these newcomers any day.

[I'm a red panda]

The last time this situation happened tens of millions of people died. Charging the credit card a bit is preferable to death on that kind of scale. At least that's what I think because I'm Christian.

Wait what?

Without getting into the argument of who is and isn't a Christian (actually, I will- JW and LDS both are), isn't that the opposite of how you should feel?

Don't fear death
Psalm 23:4
Revelation 21:4
Hebrews 2:15
John 11:25-26
Psalm 116:15

I think I could go on for quite awhile.


And...as for charging a credit card...hmmm....
Romans 13:8
Proverbs 22:26
Deuteronomy 28:12
Deuteronomy 15:6

There's a world of difference between not fearing death yourself and refusing to lift a pinky finger to help save your neighbor's life, just as there's a world of difference between being an honest man who pays their debts and refusing to have a mortgage or something.

This type of discussion is just as useless when you do it as when WTC does it and when GuitarStv does it. You can't tell someone else what their religious beliefs are.

Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man.

But the person I was replying to DOESN'T want to help save their neighbor's life. Because a government stimulus does help do that- it is helping people get roofs over their heads, keep food in their mouths. And for those who it is "extra" it gives them incentive to spend to bolster businesses to help others keep their jobs.

I'd much rather the government (and thus, me, through taxes) help people, then expect everyone to charge their credit cards, digging them ever further into debt, just to survive, meaning their lives will continue to be hell long after this health crisis is over.

[sherr]

Like I said, there’s about 1800 years of scholarship about Christianity. There are basic core beliefs that determine who is Christian and who isn’t. I have nothing against people who aren’t Christian calling themselves Christians, because people have the freedom to say whatever they want. I just don’t have to agree with them against 1800 years of scholarship. I trust the centuries of scholarship over these newcomers any day.

Huh. Well first of all vaguely gesturing in a random direction and repeatedly claiming an unspecified "1800 years of scholarship" is not an argument, it's a poor attempt at deflection at best.

But much more importantly I'm curious: how would you react to something you did have a problem with?

[WhiteTrashCash]

Like I said, there’s about 1800 years of scholarship about Christianity. There are basic core beliefs that determine who is Christian and who isn’t. I have nothing against people who aren’t Christian calling themselves Christians, because people have the freedom to say whatever they want. I just don’t have to agree with them against 1800 years of scholarship. I trust the centuries of scholarship over these newcomers any day.

Huh. Well first of all vaguely gesturing in a random direction and repeatedly claiming an unspecified "1800 years of scholarship" is not an argument, it's a poor attempt at deflection at best.

But much more importantly I'm curious: how would you react to something you did have a problem with?

Well, I mean, I’m not running a religious education class. You could sign up for one if you wanted to. I’m just giving some basic information.

[sherr]

But the person I was replying to DOESN'T want to help save their neighbor's life. Because a government stimulus does help do that- it is helping people get roofs over their heads, keep food in their mouths. And for those who it is "extra" it gives them incentive to spend to bolster businesses to help others keep their jobs.

Yes he does, you're misreading him. WTC is for the stimulus, and considers it to flow from his religious beliefs, precisely because it would save his neighbor's life. The metaphorical credit card in question is the government's debt.

[WhiteTrashCash]

But the person I was replying to DOESN'T want to help save their neighbor's life. Because a government stimulus does help do that- it is helping people get roofs over their heads, keep food in their mouths. And for those who it is "extra" it gives them incentive to spend to bolster businesses to help others keep their jobs.

Yes he does, you're misreading him. WTC is for the stimulus, and considers it to flow from his religious beliefs, precisely because it would save his neighbor's life.

Yeah, that’s how this whole side tangent got started, because I was saying that anybody who actually IS a Christian would be in favor of aiding their neighbor in need, because that’s an important part of the religion. Hence all the Christian hospitals, food banks, soup kitchens, healthcare ministries, housing programs, etc.

[sherr]

But much more importantly I'm curious: how would you react to something you did have a problem with?

Well, I mean, I’m not running a religious education class. You could sign up for one if you wanted to. I’m just giving some basic information.

I've read plenty of theology thanks, probably much more than you have. I was just pointing out that your argument was once again bad. Also you didn't answer my question. It sure seems like you have a problem with Mormons claiming Christianity, to the point that I have no idea how you would react differently to something that you "actually had a problem with".

[WhiteTrashCash]

But much more importantly I'm curious: how would you react to something you did have a problem with?

Well, I mean, I’m not running a religious education class. You could sign up for one if you wanted to. I’m just giving some basic information.

I've read plenty of theology thanks, probably much more than you have. I was just pointing out that your argument was once again bad. Also you didn't answer my question. It sure seems like you have a problem with Mormons claiming Christianity, to the point that I have no idea how you would react differently to something that you "actually had a problem with".

Well, like I said before, Mormons can call themselves Christians, even though they aren’t. It’s (sort of) a free country. And many Mormons are very nice people. Some of them used to come and eat with us at receptions after church in the church hall when I was a kid.

[PKFFW]

If we are really going to get completely post-modern and reject reason as a way of determining what is true and false,

Apologies for taking the thread of course with the reference to that fabled true Scotsman.

I wont reply to each post, others have done an admirable job already and I recognise a brick wall when I see one.  However, I couldn't resist highlighting the above.

Let me preface by saying I have no problem with anyone choosing to believe in any religion.  However, I always find it amusing when a devout religious person accuses others of rejecting reason.

[WhiteTrashCash]

If we are really going to get completely post-modern and reject reason as a way of determining what is true and false,

Apologies for taking the thread of course with the reference to that fabled true Scotsman.

I wont reply to each post, others have done an admirable job already and I recognise a brick wall when I see one.  However, I couldn't resist highlighting the above.

Let me preface by saying I have no problem with anyone choosing to believe in any religion.  However, I always find it amusing when a devout religious person accuses others of rejecting reason.

There is nothing unreasonable about being religious. Sorry.

[frugalnacho]

Praise Odin. 

[PKFFW]

If we are really going to get completely post-modern and reject reason as a way of determining what is true and false,

Apologies for taking the thread of course with the reference to that fabled true Scotsman.

I wont reply to each post, others have done an admirable job already and I recognise a brick wall when I see one.  However, I couldn't resist highlighting the above.

Let me preface by saying I have no problem with anyone choosing to believe in any religion.  However, I always find it amusing when a devout religious person accuses others of rejecting reason.

There is nothing unreasonable about being religious. Sorry.

Nice play on words.  I wish there was a thumbs up emoji.

[mm1970]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

We have about 1800 years of scholarship about many of the questions you may have. It’s important not to quote things out of context — Christians make that mistake too.

Every different Christian sect (including the ones you don't consider Christian) has come to their own alternate interpretation, some quite different.  I take it from your response that you just follow what the people at the head of your church tell you?

Like I said, there’s about 1800 years of scholarship about Christianity. There are basic core beliefs that determine who is Christian and who isn’t. I have nothing against people who aren’t Christian calling themselves Christians, because people have the freedom to say whatever they want. I just don’t have to agree with them against 1800 years of scholarship. I trust the centuries of scholarship over these newcomers any day.

I mean, my Sunday school teacher said the only true Christian religion is Catholicism, and every other Christian religion is basically fake because they split off for their own convenience and interpretation. 

[mm1970]

My parents both worked throughout my childhood and from the age of 7 I stayed home alone after school from 3.30 to 6.00 every day. It was fun. My parents would leave some microwaved snacks out, I'd eat them and read or watch TV. :-) Or when I was 8 or 9 I'd ride a bike with the neighbourhood kids. Not saying every child should be left home alone, but our nanny state standards these days are kind of depressing. Children used to walk themselves home from school and look after each other (while the parents were out) all the time. Particularly now when it's so easy to borrow books or buy a cheap e-book, it can't not be an option for everyone.

True, and people shouldn't expect a bailout from other taxpayers just because the going gets rough.  We have to draw the line somewhere.  People would just abuse the program when they don't really need it.  These $2400 stimulus checks to families on top of the previous larger stimulus checks last year are already excessive.  I also don't like anything that disincentivises anyone from working just because they can pull in generous unemployment checks at taxpayer expense when those unemployed workers can earn more sitting at home watching TV.

I want to find these theoretical people who are just sitting on their butts not working and waiting for money.

You know what disincentivises people from working?  Jobs that don't pay enough to survive.

"Going gets rough" isn't the same as "worldwide pandemic".  Goodness gracious, so many parts of the economy are freaking shut down.

YES give those hairdressers, bartenders, waiters and waitresses, tour company drivers, massage therapists, etc more stimulus money to help them pay rent and buy food.  I can't WAIT till I can hand over the damned hair clippers and scissors back to the stylists, though I didn't do a half bad job this weekend.

This catastrophe isn't their FAULT and it's all of our responsibility to keep people from starving or becoming homeless.

[WhiteTrashCash]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

We have about 1800 years of scholarship about many of the questions you may have. It’s important not to quote things out of context — Christians make that mistake too.

Every different Christian sect (including the ones you don't consider Christian) has come to their own alternate interpretation, some quite different.  I take it from your response that you just follow what the people at the head of your church tell you?

Like I said, there’s about 1800 years of scholarship about Christianity. There are basic core beliefs that determine who is Christian and who isn’t. I have nothing against people who aren’t Christian calling themselves Christians, because people have the freedom to say whatever they want. I just don’t have to agree with them against 1800 years of scholarship. I trust the centuries of scholarship over these newcomers any day.

I mean, my Sunday school teacher said the only true Christian religion is Catholicism, and every other Christian religion is basically fake because they split off for their own convenience and interpretation.

Catholics do feel that way, but the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant Churches, etc. as Christian. Just Christians who have varying degrees of incorrect worship. They all probably feel the same way about Catholics. But groups that don’t believe in the trinity are not considered Christian by nearly all Christians. Especially groups that either alter the Bible or create their own extra religious testaments (like “The Book of Mormon”, “The Pearl of Great Price”, etc.)

[sherr]

Catholics do feel that way, but the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant Churches, etc. as Christian. Just Christians who have varying degrees of incorrect worship. They all probably feel the same way about Catholics. But groups that don’t believe in the trinity are not considered Christian by nearly all Christians. Especially groups that either alter the Bible or create their own extra religious testaments (like “The Book of Mormon”, “The Pearl of Great Price”, etc.)

No, that is not at all true, I have met many protestants who claim that Catholics are Not True Christians. Anti-Catholic bigotry used to be a huge thing, which was why it was so noteworthy that JFK became the first Catholic president, in spite of Catholics making up a quarter of the country. Biden's still only the second Catholic president. Anti-Catholic discrimination is the reason why they had to start their own schools everywhere.

[NextTime]

No, I'm not expressing "my" opinions. I'm expressing a fact for billions of Christians which has existed for two thousand years and you can check all the scholarship on this to check that it's true.

I did.  And it's not true.

The apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.  That whole concept and idea came into Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

That’s not true. Check the Epistles of Paul.

Which part are you talking about?  You mean like where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is a man:

"1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

or the dozens of times where he draws a distinction between God and Jesus?
1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1-2, 1 Timothy 6:13, etc.

This (of course) makes sense because historically those letters were written a few hundred years before some Christians decided that Christ was also going to be God.  The trinity idea wasn't adhered to by the apostles.

I could quote literally dozens of places in Paul’s Epistles where he says Jesus is God, but I don’t see the benefit of sharing those with you right now. Just use Google if you are interested.

How exactly do you determine which parts of the bible you believe and which ones should be ignored?  Just curious, as this aspect of religion has always fascinated me.

We have about 1800 years of scholarship about many of the questions you may have. It’s important not to quote things out of context — Christians make that mistake too.

Every different Christian sect (including the ones you don't consider Christian) has come to their own alternate interpretation, some quite different.  I take it from your response that you just follow what the people at the head of your church tell you?

Like I said, there’s about 1800 years of scholarship about Christianity. There are basic core beliefs that determine who is Christian and who isn’t. I have nothing against people who aren’t Christian calling themselves Christians, because people have the freedom to say whatever they want. I just don’t have to agree with them against 1800 years of scholarship. I trust the centuries of scholarship over these newcomers any day.

I mean, my Sunday school teacher said the only true Christian religion is Catholicism, and every other Christian religion is basically fake because they split off for their own convenience and interpretation.

When I was a young lad, the Nazarene preacher’s kid that lived across the street informed me, quite matter of factly, that Catholics weren’t “real” Christians.

[NextTime]

Catholics do feel that way, but the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant Churches, etc. as Christian. Just Christians who have varying degrees of incorrect worship. They all probably feel the same way about Catholics. But groups that don’t believe in the trinity are not considered Christian by nearly all Christians. Especially groups that either alter the Bible or create their own extra religious testaments (like “The Book of Mormon”, “The Pearl of Great Price”, etc.)

No, that is not at all true, I have met many protestants who claim that Catholics are Not True Christians. Anti-Catholic bigotry used to be a huge thing, which was why it was so noteworthy that JFK became the first Catholic president, in spite of Catholics making up a quarter of the country. Biden's still only the second Catholic president. Anti-Catholic discrimination is the reason why they had to start their own schools everywhere.

Apparently the opposite applies to the Supreme Court.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Catholics do feel that way, but the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant Churches, etc. as Christian. Just Christians who have varying degrees of incorrect worship. They all probably feel the same way about Catholics. But groups that don’t believe in the trinity are not considered Christian by nearly all Christians. Especially groups that either alter the Bible or create their own extra religious testaments (like “The Book of Mormon”, “The Pearl of Great Price”, etc.)

No, that is not at all true, I have met many protestants who claim that Catholics are Not True Christians. Anti-Catholic bigotry used to be a huge thing, which was why it was so noteworthy that JFK became the first Catholic president, in spite of Catholics making up a quarter of the country. Biden's still only the second Catholic president. Anti-Catholic discrimination is the reason why they had to start their own schools everywhere.

Apparently the opposite applies to the Supreme Court.

Yeah, I think the “anti-Catholic” talk is a little overblown. Catholics and Protestants get along just fine in modern times.

[sherr]

Catholics do feel that way, but the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant Churches, etc. as Christian. Just Christians who have varying degrees of incorrect worship. They all probably feel the same way about Catholics. But groups that don’t believe in the trinity are not considered Christian by nearly all Christians. Especially groups that either alter the Bible or create their own extra religious testaments (like “The Book of Mormon”, “The Pearl of Great Price”, etc.)

No, that is not at all true, I have met many protestants who claim that Catholics are Not True Christians. Anti-Catholic bigotry used to be a huge thing, which was why it was so noteworthy that JFK became the first Catholic president, in spite of Catholics making up a quarter of the country. Biden's still only the second Catholic president. Anti-Catholic discrimination is the reason why they had to start their own schools everywhere.

I had this as an edit, but I'll repost as a new comment to ensure it's seen:

The line of reasoning given is pretty much exactly what you're doing, except instead of "the issue" being Trinitarianism it's Salvation Through Faith Alone (and claiming that the sacraments are "works") or Baptism By Imersion or claiming that they Worship Idols when they pray to the saints or whatever.

Fill in the blank with your favorite reason. You can always concoct a reason that X group you hate are not True Christians.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Catholics do feel that way, but the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant Churches, etc. as Christian. Just Christians who have varying degrees of incorrect worship. They all probably feel the same way about Catholics. But groups that don’t believe in the trinity are not considered Christian by nearly all Christians. Especially groups that either alter the Bible or create their own extra religious testaments (like “The Book of Mormon”, “The Pearl of Great Price”, etc.)

No, that is not at all true, I have met many protestants who claim that Catholics are Not True Christians. Anti-Catholic bigotry used to be a huge thing, which was why it was so noteworthy that JFK became the first Catholic president, in spite of Catholics making up a quarter of the country. Biden's still only the second Catholic president. Anti-Catholic discrimination is the reason why they had to start their own schools everywhere.

I had this as an edit, but I'll repost as a new comment to ensure it's seen:

The line of reasoning given is pretty much exactly what you're doing, except instead of "the issue" being Trinitarianism it's Salvation Through Faith Alone (and claiming that the sacraments are "works") or Baptism By Imersion or claiming that they Worship Idols when they pray to the saints or whatever.

Fill in the blank with your favorite reason. You can always concoct a reason that X group you hate are not True Christians.

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

[sherr]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

[WhiteTrashCash]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

You should reread the thread. We’ve been discussing this all day today.

[Psychstache]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

Why, in the 1800 years of scholarship of course! I can sell you a copy for 15 installments of $999.99! Salvation can be yours in just 15 installments!

[WhiteTrashCash]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

Why, in the 1800 years of scholarship of course! I can sell you a copy for 15 installments of $999.99! Salvation can be yours in just 15 installments!

Well, that wouldn’t be very Christian.

[sherr]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

You should reread the thread. We’ve been discussing this all day today.

Ah yes, the vague "1800 years of scholarship". Well The Reformation was only 500 years ago, so the majority of those years were Catholic, no? mm1970 I have good news, you have a convert! You might want to ease him in to the fact that Catholics have a different Bible though, he takes issue with added books.

[GuitarStv]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

You should reread the thread. We’ve been discussing this all day today.

You've very consistently failed to answer the question of what makes someone a Christian . . . beyond the single requirement of accepting that Jesus is God.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

You should reread the thread. We’ve been discussing this all day today.

Ah yes, the vague "1800 years of scholarship". Well The Reformation was only 500 years ago, so the majority of those years were Catholic, no? mm1970 I have good news, you have a convert! You might want to ease him in to the fact that Catholics have a different Bible though, he takes issue with added books.

You seem to be getting really upset. Relax. This is just a conversation on the internet.

[sherr]

You've very consistently failed to answer the question of what makes someone a Christian . . . beyond the single requirement of accepting that Jesus is God.

No that's not true, he's listed at least two others: Trinitarianism, and no added testaments.

You seem to be getting really upset. Relax. This is just a conversation on the internet.

You're projecting. I'll repeat myself: I don't care at all what your theology is, one way or another. That's just like, your opinion man.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Nope. Just because some Protestants don’t understand Catholicism, that doesn’t change the requirements for being Christian.

Apologies to everyone else for continuing to beat this horse even though it's obviously dead, but I'm just so insatiably curious.

What are these "requirements for being a Christian"? Where is the canonical list? Which commands and theologies made that cut, and who made that decision?

You should reread the thread. We’ve been discussing this all day today.

You've very consistently failed to answer the question of what makes someone a Christian . . . beyond the single requirement of accepting that Jesus is God.

Essentially that’s it. Accept the trinity and follow Jesus’s teachings as taught in the Bible. Pretty simple stuff. There are all kinds of various churches and stuff, but the religion isn’t all that complicated. I’m pretty sure we’ve been talking about that all day today.

[WhiteTrashCash]

You seem to be getting really upset. Relax. This is just a conversation on the internet.

You're projecting. I'll repeat myself: I don't care at all what your theology is, one way or another. That's just like, your opinion man.

You can think whatever you want. I just know you are wrong. You have to accept that I think that. This is the internet. People are wrong about things all the time.

[sherr]

I will indeed have to learn that my opinion is not authoritative and that other people are free to think what they want. Gosh, how ever will I manage to learn that.

[I'm a red panda]

Catholics do feel that way, but the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant Churches, etc. as Christian. Just Christians who have varying degrees of incorrect worship. They all probably feel the same way about Catholics. But groups that don’t believe in the trinity are not considered Christian by nearly all Christians. Especially groups that either alter the Bible or create their own extra religious testaments (like “The Book of Mormon”, “The Pearl of Great Price”, etc.)

No, that is not at all true, I have met many protestants who claim that Catholics are Not True Christians. Anti-Catholic bigotry used to be a huge thing, which was why it was so noteworthy that JFK became the first Catholic president, in spite of Catholics making up a quarter of the country. Biden's still only the second Catholic president. Anti-Catholic discrimination is the reason why they had to start their own schools everywhere.

Apparently the opposite applies to the Supreme Court.

Yeah, I think the “anti-Catholic” talk is a little overblown. Catholics and Protestants get along just fine in modern times.

I mean, the IRA stopped blowing people up; but there was absolutely concern that a closed border due to Brexit would reignite the issues that the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland and Northern Ireland have had.  (And I'd say The Troubles were modern times.)

As a non-Irish person, I can't speak to that personally, but I can say I was told many many times in college I was going to hell for being Catholic, that I was not Christian, that my baptism was false.  So no, I don't think Catholics and Protestants get along just fine. They weren't threatening me with physical violence, but eternal damnation doesn't seem to be "get along just fine".