Author Topic: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang  (Read 35959 times)

LennStar

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #200 on: March 24, 2019, 01:55:58 AM »
On the "how long it takes to wealth getting "lost" by heirs":

https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-1427-are-still-the-richest-families-in-florence/

Quote
The top earners among the current taxpayers were found to have already been at the top of the socioeconomic ladder six centuries ago,” Barone and Mocetti note on VoxEU. The study was able to exploit a unique data set—taxpayers data in 1427 was digitized and made available online—to show long-term trends of economic mobility.



scottish

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #201 on: March 24, 2019, 07:01:34 AM »
You are right we will always argue on what is fair.  For example I think it is fair to only have a consumption tax which would exclude taxation of essentials such as food, shelter and medicine.  Everything else gets taxed and is progressive as people who have more will spend more and therefor will be taxed more.  It also incentivizes saving which would be great for all of society.  But not enough people agree with me and we have the current system we have now.

That's fine, but we're talking about if estates should be taxed or not.  This is an issue you raised.  Since you raised it, let's discuss it.

Quote
Bezo's has a lot of wealth in Amazon but is also very highly compensated by Amazon and pays a hell of a lot more in taxes than you and I will in our entire lifetime.  How much more do we need Bezo's to pay?
 

That's certainly a fair question, but is also a red herring.  Bezos doesn't pay the estate tax.  His heirs do.  His heirs weren't highly compensated by Amazon.  It is entirely fair to ask why just being an heir of Bezos entities you to a lower tax rate than being a fire fighter.     Do you have an answer to that question?  I haven't seen it so far. 

And again, almost the entirety of Bezos' fortune is in the form of unrealized capital gains.  Is there a good reason why you, EnJoyIT should pay capital gains on your earnings but if I inherit the same amount of money then no taxes should apply?

I note that you continually dodge the central question: Why should inherited money be untaxed but money that is earned by honest labor taxed the most heavily?

I don’t think I have dodged it. Estate tax has been taxes while building the estate or will be taxed in the future as the estate is sold for living expenses by the heirs. Bezos has paid millions in taxes. Amazon has paid millions in taxes as well. How much more taxes must we take?

And again, why do you think the government is more fitting of Bezos estate than his own family?  Even if it takes 209 hundred years for his wealth to disipate taxes will he collected.

In Canada, estate taxes are called 'probate fees' or something similar and they are set by province.   Here in Ontario, we pay 0.5% on the first 50K and 1.5% on the rest.   In Alberta probate fees are lower, with a maximum of $400.

The problem I have with probate fees is that they are a tax on income which has already been taxed.   When someone dies, capital assets are deemed to have been sold at the market price and capital gains tax is applied.     The probate fees are applied on top of that.

I don't have a problem with paying the government $400 to issue an estate trustee certificate.   This is very much a fee for service.   However I am not happy with forking over close to 100K to probate my parents estate.   The Ontario government provides no more value added than the Alberta government, instead they charge through the nose just because they can.

JLee

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #202 on: March 24, 2019, 11:24:30 AM »
You are right we will always argue on what is fair.  For example I think it is fair to only have a consumption tax which would exclude taxation of essentials such as food, shelter and medicine.  Everything else gets taxed and is progressive as people who have more will spend more and therefor will be taxed more.  It also incentivizes saving which would be great for all of society.  But not enough people agree with me and we have the current system we have now.

That's fine, but we're talking about if estates should be taxed or not.  This is an issue you raised.  Since you raised it, let's discuss it.

Quote
Bezo's has a lot of wealth in Amazon but is also very highly compensated by Amazon and pays a hell of a lot more in taxes than you and I will in our entire lifetime.  How much more do we need Bezo's to pay?
 

That's certainly a fair question, but is also a red herring.  Bezos doesn't pay the estate tax.  His heirs do.  His heirs weren't highly compensated by Amazon.  It is entirely fair to ask why just being an heir of Bezos entities you to a lower tax rate than being a fire fighter.     Do you have an answer to that question?  I haven't seen it so far. 

And again, almost the entirety of Bezos' fortune is in the form of unrealized capital gains.  Is there a good reason why you, EnJoyIT should pay capital gains on your earnings but if I inherit the same amount of money then no taxes should apply?

I note that you continually dodge the central question: Why should inherited money be untaxed but money that is earned by honest labor taxed the most heavily?

I don’t think I have dodged it. Estate tax has been taxes while building the estate or will be taxed in the future as the estate is sold for living expenses by the heirs. Bezos has paid millions in taxes. Amazon has paid millions in taxes as well. How much more taxes must we take?

And again, why do you think the government is more fitting of Bezos estate than his own family?  Even if it takes 209 hundred years for his wealth to disipate taxes will he collected.

In Canada, estate taxes are called 'probate fees' or something similar and they are set by province.   Here in Ontario, we pay 0.5% on the first 50K and 1.5% on the rest.   In Alberta probate fees are lower, with a maximum of $400.

The problem I have with probate fees is that they are a tax on income which has already been taxed.  When someone dies, capital assets are deemed to have been sold at the market price and capital gains tax is applied.     The probate fees are applied on top of that.

I don't have a problem with paying the government $400 to issue an estate trustee certificate.   This is very much a fee for service.   However I am not happy with forking over close to 100K to probate my parents estate.   The Ontario government provides no more value added than the Alberta government, instead they charge through the nose just because they can.

That doesn't happen in the US. When investments are passed down via inheritance and sold, they're reported on a tax return at their market value (as sold) and the cost basis is what the stocks were valued at on the date of death.  It effectively erases capital gains taxes. 

https://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/do-i-have-to-pay-taxes-on-inheritance.aspx

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #203 on: March 24, 2019, 11:37:49 AM »
You are right we will always argue on what is fair.  For example I think it is fair to only have a consumption tax which would exclude taxation of essentials such as food, shelter and medicine.  Everything else gets taxed and is progressive as people who have more will spend more and therefor will be taxed more.  It also incentivizes saving which would be great for all of society.  But not enough people agree with me and we have the current system we have now.

That's fine, but we're talking about if estates should be taxed or not.  This is an issue you raised.  Since you raised it, let's discuss it.

Quote
Bezo's has a lot of wealth in Amazon but is also very highly compensated by Amazon and pays a hell of a lot more in taxes than you and I will in our entire lifetime.  How much more do we need Bezo's to pay?
 

That's certainly a fair question, but is also a red herring.  Bezos doesn't pay the estate tax.  His heirs do.  His heirs weren't highly compensated by Amazon.  It is entirely fair to ask why just being an heir of Bezos entities you to a lower tax rate than being a fire fighter.     Do you have an answer to that question?  I haven't seen it so far. 

And again, almost the entirety of Bezos' fortune is in the form of unrealized capital gains.  Is there a good reason why you, EnJoyIT should pay capital gains on your earnings but if I inherit the same amount of money then no taxes should apply?

I note that you continually dodge the central question: Why should inherited money be untaxed but money that is earned by honest labor taxed the most heavily?

I don’t think I have dodged it. Estate tax has been taxes while building the estate or will be taxed in the future as the estate is sold for living expenses by the heirs. Bezos has paid millions in taxes. Amazon has paid millions in taxes as well. How much more taxes must we take?

And again, why do you think the government is more fitting of Bezos estate than his own family?  Even if it takes 209 hundred years for his wealth to disipate taxes will he collected.

In Canada, estate taxes are called 'probate fees' or something similar and they are set by province.   Here in Ontario, we pay 0.5% on the first 50K and 1.5% on the rest.   In Alberta probate fees are lower, with a maximum of $400.

The problem I have with probate fees is that they are a tax on income which has already been taxed.  When someone dies, capital assets are deemed to have been sold at the market price and capital gains tax is applied.     The probate fees are applied on top of that.

I don't have a problem with paying the government $400 to issue an estate trustee certificate.   This is very much a fee for service.   However I am not happy with forking over close to 100K to probate my parents estate.   The Ontario government provides no more value added than the Alberta government, instead they charge through the nose just because they can.

That doesn't happen in the US. When investments are passed down via inheritance and sold, they're reported on a tax return at their market value (as sold) and the cost basis is what the stocks were valued at on the date of death.  It effectively erases capital gains taxes. 

https://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/do-i-have-to-pay-taxes-on-inheritance.aspx

Investments will still throw off dividends which are taxed.  Investments will appreciate and also taxed when sold.  Investments will be sold to buy goods and services which will be taxed.  Investments that are sold will be used to create wealth for tother people which will also be taxed.  Round and round we go, taxes are being paid.

Those that grew filthy rich paid lots of taxes getting filthy rich before they died.  Their wealth has been taxed significantly already.

JLee

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #204 on: March 24, 2019, 11:46:46 AM »
Investments will still throw off dividends which are taxed.  Investments will appreciate and also taxed when sold.  Investments will be sold to buy goods and services which will be taxed.  Investments that are sold will be used to create wealth for tother people which will also be taxed.  Round and round we go, taxes are being paid.

Those that grew filthy rich paid lots of taxes getting filthy rich before they died.  Their wealth has been taxed significantly already.

Yes, but not really. With cost basis reset, claiming they're "taxed when sold" is weak.  What do you think capital gains taxes on $10 million are when the cost basis is $10 million?


EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #205 on: March 24, 2019, 12:05:40 PM »
Investments will still throw off dividends which are taxed.  Investments will appreciate and also taxed when sold.  Investments will be sold to buy goods and services which will be taxed.  Investments that are sold will be used to create wealth for tother people which will also be taxed.  Round and round we go, taxes are being paid.

Those that grew filthy rich paid lots of taxes getting filthy rich before they died.  Their wealth has been taxed significantly already.

Yes, but not really. With cost basis reset, claiming they're "taxed when sold" is weak.  What do you think capital gains taxes on $10 million are when the cost basis is $10 million?

Are they sold immediately or will there be more appreciation?  If sold immediately that money will go into other businesses that make profit and pay taxes there. If not sold immediately dividends or profit sharing will be taxed yearly.  Were lots of taxes not paid in the process making that $10 million to begin with?  its not like that money appeared in a vacuum for the person that built that wealth.

It seams like your arguments are stuck in the vacuum of the single inheritance instead of everything leading up to and also after that inheritance.

Everyone also skips the topic of why some people think the federal government is more deserving of that money than the family of the person that created it?

maizefolk

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #206 on: March 24, 2019, 12:26:04 PM »
Everyone also skips the topic of why some people think the federal government is more deserving of that money than the family of the person that created it?

That's because that's a completely separate topic. The government needs $X in order to do the things it does. If we want $X to be smaller, the government must do fewer things. If we want the government to do more things, $X must increase. But whatever the value of $X, it seems clear to me that I'm much rather pay a bigger portion of my share of $X when I'm dead, and less when I'm alive.

Most of your arguments against the estate tax seem to have more to do with either (A) wanting a smaller $X and hence fewer government services, or (B) disagreeing with the system used to decide what each person's "fair share" of total government spending -- and hence revenue -- is.

Reasonable people can disagree on each of those points. But given that government spending is going to some value greater than $0, and that my share of that spending is also going to be some value greater than $0, why do you want me to pay a bigger portion of my share while I'm still alive and could use that money for other things instead of when I'm dead, and cannot?

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #207 on: March 24, 2019, 12:46:01 PM »
Everyone also skips the topic of why some people think the federal government is more deserving of that money than the family of the person that created it?

That's because that's a completely separate topic. The government needs $X in order to do the things it does. If we want $X to be smaller, the government must do fewer things. If we want the government to do more things, $X must increase. But whatever the value of $X, it seems clear to me that I'm much rather pay a bigger portion of my share of $X when I'm dead, and less when I'm alive.

Most of your arguments against the estate tax seem to have more to do with either (A) wanting a smaller $X and hence fewer government services, or (B) disagreeing with the system used to decide what each person's "fair share" of total government spending -- and hence revenue -- is.

Reasonable people can disagree on each of those points. But given that government spending is going to some value greater than $0, and that my share of that spending is also going to be some value greater than $0, why do you want me to pay a bigger portion of my share while I'm still alive and could use that money for other things instead of when I'm dead, and cannot?

In response:
My position is that we fund the government plenty right now and we do not need to levy more taxes.  So yes, I think the government can spend less money and provide less services.  I think that money can be used to pay down debt and therefor require less in taxes in the long run.  You know sort of like we believe here on MMM that we have financial freedom through badassity.  Somehow this concept escapes us when we talk about the government.

Regarding your point on taxes taken while alive or dead, I would be fine with cutting everyone's taxes now while alive and then tax them later when deceased, but I do not believe that is your position nor is it a possible solution considering how ingrained we are in our current system.  I think your position is that we need to increase taxes and the way to do it is to tax estates and that position I have a problem with for all the reasons above.

maizefolk

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #208 on: March 24, 2019, 02:59:16 PM »
Regarding your point on taxes taken while alive or dead, I would be fine with cutting everyone's taxes now while alive and then tax them later when deceased, but I do not believe that is your position nor is it a possible solution considering how ingrained we are in our current system.  I think your position is that we need to increase taxes and the way to do it is to tax estates and that position I have a problem with for all the reasons above.

See now you're back to arguing about how much tax revenue you think we need our government to raise,* which is really moot for the purposes of this discussion.

My position is that, all things being equal, I would prefer a mix of taxes where more of the total that I need to pay comes after I'm dead, and less while I am alive.

That preference stays constant regardless of whether (separately) we determine that we need our government to raise less, more, or the exact same amount of tax revenue as it does now.

If we need to raise taxes, I'd rather raise the estate tax (and lower the exclusion) than income or payroll or sales taxes. Are you arguing you'd prefer the opposite?

If we can afford to cut taxes, I'd rather cut income or payroll or sales taxes than cut the estate tax. Are you arguing you'd prefer the opposite?

*And beyond that, how much tax revenue you think that I think that we need our government to raise.

anisotropy

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #209 on: March 24, 2019, 03:08:27 PM »
how much tax revenue you think we need our government to raise,*

*And beyond that, how much tax revenue you think that I think that we need our government to raise.

pfft, get more woke* plz Maize, tax revenue does not dictate government spending! governments don't need no tax revenue! ever heard of MMT? aka Magic Money Tree? Ms. Occasional-Cortex is a big fan!

*all sarcasm obviously, Maize you know how I really think about these things, mmt included.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 03:10:26 PM by anisotropy »

JLee

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #210 on: March 24, 2019, 03:15:18 PM »
Investments will still throw off dividends which are taxed.  Investments will appreciate and also taxed when sold.  Investments will be sold to buy goods and services which will be taxed.  Investments that are sold will be used to create wealth for tother people which will also be taxed.  Round and round we go, taxes are being paid.

Those that grew filthy rich paid lots of taxes getting filthy rich before they died.  Their wealth has been taxed significantly already.

Yes, but not really. With cost basis reset, claiming they're "taxed when sold" is weak.  What do you think capital gains taxes on $10 million are when the cost basis is $10 million?

Are they sold immediately or will there be more appreciation?  If sold immediately that money will go into other businesses that make profit and pay taxes there. If not sold immediately dividends or profit sharing will be taxed yearly.  Were lots of taxes not paid in the process making that $10 million to begin with?  its not like that money appeared in a vacuum for the person that built that wealth.

It seams like your arguments are stuck in the vacuum of the single inheritance instead of everything leading up to and also after that inheritance.

Everyone also skips the topic of why some people think the federal government is more deserving of that money than the family of the person that created it?

My argument is that a dead person's money is treated more leniently than a living person's money, and there is no good reason for that other than for wealth dynasties to continue.

Show me how I can reset my investments' cost basis to current value tax-free. If I was able to do that, I could've skipped paying some capital gains on some 20 year investments I sold last year.

Had I died and passed those investments on as an inheritance, those capital gains taxes would never have been paid.

My effective tax rate for 2018 was over 20%. Work work work...  If I did literally nothing and then got a $10 million inheritance that began as a $1 million investment account 30 years ago, my tax rate would be 0% and $9 million in capital gains would not be taxed at all. Ever.

If I invested $1mil 30 years ago and it was $10mil today and I cashed it out, I would be paying $2.9mil in taxes.

Alive: $2.9 mil
Dead: $0.00
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 03:21:02 PM by JLee »

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #211 on: March 24, 2019, 03:25:03 PM »
Investments will still throw off dividends which are taxed.  Investments will appreciate and also taxed when sold.  Investments will be sold to buy goods and services which will be taxed.  Investments that are sold will be used to create wealth for tother people which will also be taxed.  Round and round we go, taxes are being paid.

Those that grew filthy rich paid lots of taxes getting filthy rich before they died.  Their wealth has been taxed significantly already.

Yes, but not really. With cost basis reset, claiming they're "taxed when sold" is weak.  What do you think capital gains taxes on $10 million are when the cost basis is $10 million?

Are they sold immediately or will there be more appreciation?  If sold immediately that money will go into other businesses that make profit and pay taxes there. If not sold immediately dividends or profit sharing will be taxed yearly.  Were lots of taxes not paid in the process making that $10 million to begin with?  its not like that money appeared in a vacuum for the person that built that wealth.

It seams like your arguments are stuck in the vacuum of the single inheritance instead of everything leading up to and also after that inheritance.

Everyone also skips the topic of why some people think the federal government is more deserving of that money than the family of the person that created it?

My argument is that a dead person's money is treated more leniently than a living person's money, and there is no good reason for that other than for wealth dynasties to continue.

Show me how I can reset my investments' cost basis to current value tax-free. If I was able to do that, I could've skipped paying some capital gains on some 20 year investments I sold last year.

Had I died and passed those investments on as an inheritance, those capital gains taxes would never have been paid.

My effective tax rate for 2018 was over 20%. Work work work...  If I did literally nothing and then got a $10 million inheritance that began as a $1 million investment account 30 years ago, my tax rate would be 0% and $9 million in capital gains would not be taxed at all. Ever.

If I invested $1mil 30 years ago and it was $10mil today and I cashed it out, I would be paying $2.9mil in taxes.

Alive: $2.9 mil
Dead: $0.00

We are talking past each there.  that $1 million investment that turned into $10 million payed out dividends and was taxed.  The person who made $10 million from $1 million also made lots of other money and payed a ton in taxes before your inherited.  Taxes have been collected.  More importantly, why is the government more deserving of this money as opposed to the family that earned it?

You BTW pay $0 in capital gains tax while in the 12% tax bracket.  So there is your answer on how you can avoid some taxes.

JLee

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #212 on: March 24, 2019, 03:27:16 PM »
Investments will still throw off dividends which are taxed.  Investments will appreciate and also taxed when sold.  Investments will be sold to buy goods and services which will be taxed.  Investments that are sold will be used to create wealth for tother people which will also be taxed.  Round and round we go, taxes are being paid.

Those that grew filthy rich paid lots of taxes getting filthy rich before they died.  Their wealth has been taxed significantly already.

Yes, but not really. With cost basis reset, claiming they're "taxed when sold" is weak.  What do you think capital gains taxes on $10 million are when the cost basis is $10 million?

Are they sold immediately or will there be more appreciation?  If sold immediately that money will go into other businesses that make profit and pay taxes there. If not sold immediately dividends or profit sharing will be taxed yearly.  Were lots of taxes not paid in the process making that $10 million to begin with?  its not like that money appeared in a vacuum for the person that built that wealth.

It seams like your arguments are stuck in the vacuum of the single inheritance instead of everything leading up to and also after that inheritance.

Everyone also skips the topic of why some people think the federal government is more deserving of that money than the family of the person that created it?

My argument is that a dead person's money is treated more leniently than a living person's money, and there is no good reason for that other than for wealth dynasties to continue.

Show me how I can reset my investments' cost basis to current value tax-free. If I was able to do that, I could've skipped paying some capital gains on some 20 year investments I sold last year.

Had I died and passed those investments on as an inheritance, those capital gains taxes would never have been paid.

My effective tax rate for 2018 was over 20%. Work work work...  If I did literally nothing and then got a $10 million inheritance that began as a $1 million investment account 30 years ago, my tax rate would be 0% and $9 million in capital gains would not be taxed at all. Ever.

If I invested $1mil 30 years ago and it was $10mil today and I cashed it out, I would be paying $2.9mil in taxes.

Alive: $2.9 mil
Dead: $0.00

We are talking past each there. that $1 million investment that turned into $10 million payed out dividends and was taxed. The person who made $10 million from $1 million also made lots of other money and payed a ton in taxes before your inherited.  Taxes have been collected. More importantly, why is the government more deserving of this money as opposed to the family that earned it?

You BTW pay $0 in capital gains tax while in the 12% tax bracket.  So there is your answer on how you can avoid some taxes.

And? I pay taxes on dividends too.

The "family" didn't earn it.  Why's the government more deserving of the money that I earned with my own labor? Surely I deserve that more than I deserve my parents' money.

To repeat my earlier point, why should my money be treated any differently after I die than it is when I am alive?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 03:29:29 PM by JLee »

maizefolk

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #213 on: March 24, 2019, 03:29:17 PM »
More importantly, why is the government more deserving of this money as opposed to the family that earned it?

That's not an argument against the estate tax, that's an argument about the ethics of taxation in general. It applies equally well (or poorly) to income, sales, and payroll taxes.

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #214 on: March 24, 2019, 03:31:18 PM »
Regarding your point on taxes taken while alive or dead, I would be fine with cutting everyone's taxes now while alive and then tax them later when deceased, but I do not believe that is your position nor is it a possible solution considering how ingrained we are in our current system.  I think your position is that we need to increase taxes and the way to do it is to tax estates and that position I have a problem with for all the reasons above.

See now you're back to arguing about how much tax revenue you think we need our government to raise,* which is really moot for the purposes of this discussion.

My position is that, all things being equal, I would prefer a mix of taxes where more of the total that I need to pay comes after I'm dead, and less while I am alive.

That preference stays constant regardless of whether (separately) we determine that we need our government to raise less, more, or the exact same amount of tax revenue as it does now.

If we need to raise taxes, I'd rather raise the estate tax (and lower the exclusion) than income or payroll or sales taxes. Are you arguing you'd prefer the opposite?

If we can afford to cut taxes, I'd rather cut income or payroll or sales taxes than cut the estate tax. Are you arguing you'd prefer the opposite?

*And beyond that, how much tax revenue you think that I think that we need our government to raise.

It seams like the world could care less what you and I prefer.  I prefer to pay less taxes, you prefer to pay taxes when you die.  No one really cares what either of us prefer. 

All else being equal I would gladly stop paying income tax today and then tax my estate by 50% or some such thing.  Impossible because I will leave behind a wife.  So maybe when she dies then taxes are collected. Just as I am pretty good at navigating todays tax structure I will find legal ways to get that money to my son with as little tax as possible extracted. 

In todays tax structure, I see no reason why government has any right to family money just because someone dies.  Seams kind of crazy to me.

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #215 on: March 24, 2019, 03:32:11 PM »
More importantly, why is the government more deserving of this money as opposed to the family that earned it?

That's not an argument against the estate tax, that's an argument about the ethics of taxation in general. It applies equally well (or poorly) to income, sales, and payroll taxes.

You sure like talking in circles.  That is the exact argument to an estate tax. 

maizefolk

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #216 on: March 24, 2019, 03:36:37 PM »
In todays tax structure, I see no reason why government has any right to family money just because someone dies.  Seams kind of crazy to me.

It sounds like you have a problem with taxation generally.

Why does government have a right to my money just because I earn something (income and payroll tax)?
Why does government have a right to my money just because I buy something (sales tax)?

I don't see why the question of our government gets to tax us is any more or less confusing with an estate tax than with any other form of tax. (And as discussed, from a pragmatic perspective, an estate tax has a lot less effect on our own quality of life and happiness than any of the others.)

JLee

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #217 on: March 24, 2019, 03:40:11 PM »
Regarding your point on taxes taken while alive or dead, I would be fine with cutting everyone's taxes now while alive and then tax them later when deceased, but I do not believe that is your position nor is it a possible solution considering how ingrained we are in our current system.  I think your position is that we need to increase taxes and the way to do it is to tax estates and that position I have a problem with for all the reasons above.

See now you're back to arguing about how much tax revenue you think we need our government to raise,* which is really moot for the purposes of this discussion.

My position is that, all things being equal, I would prefer a mix of taxes where more of the total that I need to pay comes after I'm dead, and less while I am alive.

That preference stays constant regardless of whether (separately) we determine that we need our government to raise less, more, or the exact same amount of tax revenue as it does now.

If we need to raise taxes, I'd rather raise the estate tax (and lower the exclusion) than income or payroll or sales taxes. Are you arguing you'd prefer the opposite?

If we can afford to cut taxes, I'd rather cut income or payroll or sales taxes than cut the estate tax. Are you arguing you'd prefer the opposite?

*And beyond that, how much tax revenue you think that I think that we need our government to raise.

It seams like the world could care less what you and I prefer.  I prefer to pay less taxes, you prefer to pay taxes when you die.  No one really cares what either of us prefer. 

All else being equal I would gladly stop paying income tax today and then tax my estate by 50% or some such thing.  Impossible because I will leave behind a wife.  So maybe when she dies then taxes are collected. Just as I am pretty good at navigating todays tax structure I will find legal ways to get that money to my son with as little tax as possible extracted. 

In todays tax structure, I see no reason why government has any right to family money just because someone dies.  Seams kind of crazy to me.

I am specifically talking about the tax-free cost basis adjustment that happens on inherited stocks.  I am not talking about taxing money "just because someone dies."  I am asking you why someone's death makes their money suddenly change from unrealized capital gains to zero capital gains.

If your argument is going to be "well that person paid (other unrelated) taxes so none of that money should ever be taxed again", I'll have you know that I paid taxes on my wage income yet my capital gains on those investments I purchased with taxed money are still taxed.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 03:41:42 PM by JLee »

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #218 on: March 24, 2019, 05:47:26 PM »
In todays tax structure, I see no reason why government has any right to family money just because someone dies.  Seams kind of crazy to me.

It sounds like you have a problem with taxation generally.

Why does government have a right to my money just because I earn something (income and payroll tax)?
Why does government have a right to my money just because I buy something (sales tax)?

I don't see why the question of our government gets to tax us is any more or less confusing with an estate tax than with any other form of tax. (And as discussed, from a pragmatic perspective, an estate tax has a lot less effect on our own quality of life and happiness than any of the others.)

Taxation is a necessary cost of having certain needs met than can not be met by the private sector. I am not against taxation though I am against waste and I am against taxing people just because they happen to be more successful than me. Some progressiveness is necessary to have a civil society and I appreciate and agree with that need as well.

Since only taxing the dead is impossible due to our current tax structure and impossibility of a switch, your arguments are pointless. We might as well argue if pterodactyl eggs are too high in cholesterol.

maizefolk

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #219 on: March 24, 2019, 06:41:02 PM »
Since only taxing the dead is impossible due to our current tax structure and impossibility of a switch, your arguments are pointless. We might as well argue if pterodactyl eggs are too high in cholesterol.

A complete switch is impossible, but a change on the margin is not.

We certainly could tax the dead a little more than we do now. The result would be that either the federal debt grew a little more slowly that it is today, or we could cut other taxes so that increasing taxes on the dead was revenue neutral.

I am not against taxation though I am against waste and I am against taxing people just because they happen to be more successful than me. Some progressiveness is necessary to have a civil society and I appreciate and agree with that need as well.

So is your concern not with the act of raising estate taxes themselves (either to close the deficit or to offset tax cuts elsewhere), but that you think some people are in favor of it for what you feel to be impure motives?

Davnasty

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #220 on: March 24, 2019, 07:00:55 PM »
Investments will still throw off dividends which are taxed.  Investments will appreciate and also taxed when sold.  Investments will be sold to buy goods and services which will be taxed.  Investments that are sold will be used to create wealth for tother people which will also be taxed.  Round and round we go, taxes are being paid.

Those that grew filthy rich paid lots of taxes getting filthy rich before they died.  Their wealth has been taxed significantly already.

Yes, but not really. With cost basis reset, claiming they're "taxed when sold" is weak.  What do you think capital gains taxes on $10 million are when the cost basis is $10 million?

Are they sold immediately or will there be more appreciation?  If sold immediately that money will go into other businesses that make profit and pay taxes there. If not sold immediately dividends or profit sharing will be taxed yearly.  Were lots of taxes not paid in the process making that $10 million to begin with?  its not like that money appeared in a vacuum for the person that built that wealth.

It seams like your arguments are stuck in the vacuum of the single inheritance instead of everything leading up to and also after that inheritance.

Everyone also skips the topic of why some people think the federal government is more deserving of that money than the family of the person that created it?

My argument is that a dead person's money is treated more leniently than a living person's money, and there is no good reason for that other than for wealth dynasties to continue.

Show me how I can reset my investments' cost basis to current value tax-free. If I was able to do that, I could've skipped paying some capital gains on some 20 year investments I sold last year.

Had I died and passed those investments on as an inheritance, those capital gains taxes would never have been paid.

My effective tax rate for 2018 was over 20%. Work work work...  If I did literally nothing and then got a $10 million inheritance that began as a $1 million investment account 30 years ago, my tax rate would be 0% and $9 million in capital gains would not be taxed at all. Ever.

If I invested $1mil 30 years ago and it was $10mil today and I cashed it out, I would be paying $2.9mil in taxes.

Alive: $2.9 mil
Dead: $0.00

We are talking past each there. that $1 million investment that turned into $10 million payed out dividends and was taxed. The person who made $10 million from $1 million also made lots of other money and payed a ton in taxes before your inherited.  Taxes have been collected. More importantly, why is the government more deserving of this money as opposed to the family that earned it?

You BTW pay $0 in capital gains tax while in the 12% tax bracket.  So there is your answer on how you can avoid some taxes.

And? I pay taxes on dividends too.

The "family" didn't earn it.  Why's the government more deserving of the money that I earned with my own labor? Surely I deserve that more than I deserve my parents' money.

To repeat my earlier point, why should my money be treated any differently after I die than it is when I am alive?

Jlee's explanation covers this pretty well but since EnjoyIt isn't responding to the relevant part here, maybe we should give it some numbers.

I earn and invest $10M in stock and it grows to $20M. While it grows it throws off $2M in dividends.

-If I sell the stock I will pay capital gains tax on $10M in addition to the $2M in dividends I've already paid on.
-If I die and pass those stock on to someone else who then sells them, I've paid capital gains taxes on $2M, they pay none.

Assuming it's all taxed at 15%, the total tax collected in scenario 1 is $1.8M. In scenario 2 $300k.

Clearly less taxes have been paid. Do you have any justification as to why this should be the case?

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #221 on: March 24, 2019, 07:14:27 PM »
Since only taxing the dead is impossible due to our current tax structure and impossibility of a switch, your arguments are pointless. We might as well argue if pterodactyl eggs are too high in cholesterol.

A complete switch is impossible, but a change on the margin is not.

We certainly could tax the dead a little more than we do now. The result would be that either the federal debt grew a little more slowly that it is today, or we could cut other taxes so that increasing taxes on the dead was revenue neutral.

I am not against taxation though I am against waste and I am against taxing people just because they happen to be more successful than me. Some progressiveness is necessary to have a civil society and I appreciate and agree with that need as well.

So is your concern not with the act of raising estate taxes themselves (either to close the deficit or to offset tax cuts elsewhere), but that you think some people are in favor of it for what you feel to be impure motives?

Or we could just spend less and not make any changes on taxes and the debt would decrease that way.  So many good options we have.

maizefolk

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #222 on: March 24, 2019, 07:27:23 PM »
Or we could just spend less and not make any changes on taxes and the debt would decrease that way.  So many good options we have.

Yup, which is why it really seems like your complaint is with total government spending/taxation rather than with one particular tax which is far less of a burden on out individual life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than most.

(Since it only kicks in after life is completely out of the picture. And at that point either your pursuit of happiness is over, or it isn't going to require any money ever again, depending on your religious beliefs.)

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #223 on: March 24, 2019, 07:35:10 PM »
Or we could just spend less and not make any changes on taxes and the debt would decrease that way.  So many good options we have.

Yup, which is why it really seems like your complaint is with total government spending/taxation rather than with one particular tax which is far less of a burden on out individual life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than most.

(Since it only kicks in after life is completely out of the picture. And at that point either your pursuit of happiness is over, or it isn't going to require any money ever again, depending on your religious beliefs.)

Yes, my complaint is in fact with wasteful government spending but earlier you said we can't talk about that for some reason.  So we are running out of things to talk about here.

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #224 on: March 24, 2019, 07:38:54 PM »
Since only taxing the dead is impossible due to our current tax structure and impossibility of a switch, your arguments are pointless. We might as well argue if pterodactyl eggs are too high in cholesterol.

A complete switch is impossible, but a change on the margin is not.

We certainly could tax the dead a little more than we do now. The result would be that either the federal debt grew a little more slowly that it is today, or we could cut other taxes so that increasing taxes on the dead was revenue neutral.

I am not against taxation though I am against waste and I am against taxing people just because they happen to be more successful than me. Some progressiveness is necessary to have a civil society and I appreciate and agree with that need as well.

So is your concern not with the act of raising estate taxes themselves (either to close the deficit or to offset tax cuts elsewhere), but that you think some people are in favor of it for what you feel to be impure motives?

Or we could just spend less and not make any changes on taxes and the debt would decrease that way.  So many good options we have.

No one has disagreed with this. Let's say X is the amount of money we need to raise in taxes and Y is the tax revenue collected. a, b, c, & d are the sources of tax revenue that add up to Y, like income, sales, capital gains, and estate taxes. Everyone else is debating the most rational way to distribute the burden among a, b, c, & d but you're arguing that X should be lower and therefore d should be 0. That X should be lower is a valid opinion, one which I would generally agree with.

Yup, which is why it really seems like your complaint is with total government spending/taxation rather than with one particular tax which is far less of a burden on out individual life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than most.

(Since it only kicks in after life is completely out of the picture. And at that point either your pursuit of happiness is over, or it isn't going to require any money ever again, depending on your religious beliefs.)

Yes, my complaint is in fact with wasteful government spending but earlier you said we can't talk about that for some reason.  So we are running out of things to talk about here.

No one has said you can't talk about it, we're saying it's a separate discussion. Using this position as a blanket argument against raising any specific tax makes no sense.

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #225 on: March 24, 2019, 07:42:26 PM »
Yes, my complaint is in fact with wasteful government spending but earlier you said we can't talk about that for some reason.  So we are running out of things to talk about here.

Okay, so just to confirm, you just want the government to spend less money and hence impose fewer taxes?

Nothing wrong with that position, it's just confusing to me, and I suspect others in this thread, when you state that you're arguing against the estate tax specifically but you're actually arguing that you think taxes overall are too high and that you aren't in favor of raising them further regardless of how the tax is imposed.

The end result is a lot of talking past each other.

EnjoyIt

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #226 on: March 24, 2019, 09:50:17 PM »
Yes, my complaint is in fact with wasteful government spending but earlier you said we can't talk about that for some reason.  So we are running out of things to talk about here.

Okay, so just to confirm, you just want the government to spend less money and hence impose fewer taxes?

Nothing wrong with that position, it's just confusing to me, and I suspect others in this thread, when you state that you're arguing against the estate tax specifically but you're actually arguing that you think taxes overall are too high and that you aren't in favor of raising them further regardless of how the tax is imposed.

The end result is a lot of talking past each other.

Yes! Endless talking past each other. 

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #227 on: March 24, 2019, 11:15:52 PM »
You say we need to raise more taxes and I say we don't.  Who is right?

Apart from a few island countries or city-states which neither need to invest a lot in infrastructure nor social welfare (because they're physically and population-wise small) and which have large influxes of foreign money (banking and/or tourism), essentially every country in the world has a significant budget deficit. The exceptions are Sweden, South Korea, Norway and Germany; well, for 3 of those 4, someone has to prop up the EU, I suppose.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget


Overall, governments spend about 10% more than they bring in with revenue, with $23.3 trillion revenue and $26.9 trillion spending. Long-term, most government will at some point have to raise taxes and/or cut spending. This applies whether we have a UBI or not.

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Money that is handed down to heirs [...]  has been taxed already and more than once.

This is true of essentially all money, most obviously in countries with sales taxes. 

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Just about every family that leaves large amounts of wealth to heirs, over 2 generations the heirs squander that money which goes back into circulation and taxes are paid.  The money is not lost forever.

This is true. I think the idea of the estate tax is to try to make sure some of that money makes its way to the public purse, rather than just going up some heir's nose. As well, we may not want to wait 2 generations, since that is after all 50 years or so.

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If we did so choose to levy taxes on estates further, those same rich people would create loopholes and ways to get around those taxes.

This is true of all taxes, thus the logical conclusion is not to tax the well-off at all. This idea seems to have some support in most Western countries, judging by government actions.

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why is the government more deserving of that money as compared to the progeny of the initial earner?

Contrary to popular belief, outside Third World despotisms, the members of the government do not keep all that money for themselves. It's spent on things for the public good, whatever the government of the day believes is the public good, whether that be roads or rail or pensions or tanks or whatever.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 11:28:00 PM by Kyle Schuant »

Bloop Bloop

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #228 on: March 24, 2019, 11:36:07 PM »
I acknowledge there are interesting views on both sides of the estate tax debate. But I think that's taking us away from the central point of debate which is whether we have an obligation to care for the less fortunate in society via redistribution, beyond the essentials (which most would agree consists of providing enough food and shelter that the crime rate doesn't go way up).

LennStar

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #229 on: March 25, 2019, 02:40:54 AM »
You know sort of like we believe here on MMM that we have financial freedom through badassity.  Somehow this concept escapes us when we talk about the government.
Nah, you are just confusing personal economy with a national economy.

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tax revenue does not dictate government spending! governments don't need no tax revenue! ever heard of MMT? aka Magic Money Tree?
Ah, I see the capitalist propaganda working here!! ;)

To get the facts down, MMT does not say government does not need taxes. The point MMT makes is that government spending can be higher as tax income as long as certain economic factors are true.
For example a state can spend money on e.g. infrastructure if the infrastructure-building industry is not fully utilized. Then the using of the prior unused economic capabilities does not lead to inflation. (And might even result in a better revenue for the state subsequently, as more people have work and pay taxes instead of getting social security. Which leads to more demand etc. But those factors are not new.)

The difference is, of course, that neoliberal theories have failed again and again, while MMT and it's earlier versions have worked most of the time.  (compare Greece and Portugal in the last crisis)

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Long-term, most government will at some point have to raise taxes and/or cut spending
No. There is a third way, used by kings and other leaders for as long as history knows about. (In fact the first written document we have is about that third way.)

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But I think that's taking us away from the central point of debate which is whether we have an obligation to care for the less fortunate in society via redistribution, beyond the essentials (which most would agree consists of providing enough food and shelter that the crime rate doesn't go way up).
Oh, let's using Germany here okay?
Because we have our enlightened phrase of the dignity of the human all state actions have to protect.

Do you think human dignity includes more than "enough food and shelter that the crime rate doesn't go way up"?

LennStar

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #230 on: March 25, 2019, 04:10:54 AM »
Here is another video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewPEzuXO61Y

Basically: Science shows that worrying about money makes you a dumb Republican. All the more reason for Mustachianism ;)

Bloop Bloop

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #231 on: March 25, 2019, 04:21:39 AM »
I believe human dignity involves shelter, food, education and medical care (I know the U.S. has some way to go regarding the last part). I don't believe it requires anything more than that. I certainly don't believe it requires redistribution, equality or an unconditional 'living wage' as that term is usually used.

taekvideo

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #232 on: March 25, 2019, 06:52:51 PM »
I work as a software engineer.

I make a lot of money because what I do requires a very high level of intelligence, analytical skill, and abstract thinking.  A lot of jobs like this are frankly not options for most of population purely through their circumstance.


I fundamentally believe our economy is going to change in such a way where people not possessing those traits will find it increasingly difficult to find jobs, let alone sustain themselves economically. I believe this because I have seen the impact that automation causes and I have also seen the lack of replacement jobs for people in this demographic (low skilled labor).

Right now there's an extremely low unemployment rate. Additionally, there's a lot of work to be done in a lot of areas, so unemployment could go even lower.

"Unemployment" is a terrible measure of the economy (just like GDP).
94% of jobs created since 2005 are temp / part-time / indep contractor jobs without benefits and usually lower pay, but they're all counted equally as "jobs".
94%.... yes 94%. Let that sink in.
Unemployment also doesn't count the millions who left the work force - our labor force participation rate is extremely low
Unemployment also doesn't count underemployment


@shenlong55 I was replying to @pecunia 's comment, but I can see how it is relevant to your's as well.

I don't think UBI will work if labor protections are removed. So I wouldn't be for UBI if minimum wage/ other labor protections are removed.

A part of Yang's UBI that also don't like is the removal of welfare programs. I would be more supportive of a UBI that is smaller, but runs along side of our current welfare programs.

It doesn't remove welfare programs - you can choose existing ones if you want (like if they benefit you more), it's just an either-or.
I personally think UBI is better than minimum wage and could render it unnecessary, but he doesn't have any plans to remove/reduce it.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #233 on: March 25, 2019, 07:19:28 PM »
I think the notion of full-time permanent work for pretty basic occupations that are easily outsourced (e.g. manufacturing, transport, retail) is an outdated one. That's just the world we live in. Today's workers have to get used to the gig economy and become agile and innovative to stay successful.

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #234 on: March 25, 2019, 07:34:54 PM »
I think the notion of full-time permanent work for pretty basic occupations that are easily outsourced (e.g. manufacturing, transport, retail) is an outdated one. That's just the world we live in. Today's workers have to get used to the gig economy and become agile and innovative to stay successful.
It's not the world we live in, it's the world we've chosen. Germany and similar countries have protectionist barriers up which have kept such jobs going - and they have the largest budget surplus in the world. Australia's been captured by the economic rationalist ideology - privatise, sell off, drop trade barriers, outsource, employ nobody just contract out, etc.

It need not be so.

Yes, it would be a big change and is unlikely here, but the same is true of UBI and yet we're still here discussing it.

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #235 on: March 25, 2019, 07:40:10 PM »
I think the notion of full-time permanent work for pretty basic occupations that are easily outsourced (e.g. manufacturing, transport, retail) is an outdated one. That's just the world we live in. Today's workers have to get used to the gig economy and become agile and innovative to stay successful.
It's not the world we live in, it's the world we've chosen. Germany and similar countries have protectionist barriers up which have kept such jobs going - and they have the largest budget surplus in the world. Australia's been captured by the economic rationalist ideology - privatise, sell off, drop trade barriers, outsource, employ nobody just contract out, etc.

It need not be so.

Yes, it would be a big change and is unlikely here, but the same is true of UBI and yet we're still here discussing it.

I'm as much for protecting workers as anyone.  But if we look at 3rd world countries becoming 2nd world countries and 2nd world countries becoming 1st world countries, isn't a lot of this rise, and its benefit for the broader humanity a result of the dropping of these trade barriers by countries like America and Australia?

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #236 on: March 25, 2019, 07:45:07 PM »
I think the notion of full-time permanent work for pretty basic occupations that are easily outsourced (e.g. manufacturing, transport, retail) is an outdated one. That's just the world we live in. Today's workers have to get used to the gig economy and become agile and innovative to stay successful.
It's not the world we live in, it's the world we've chosen. Germany and similar countries have protectionist barriers up which have kept such jobs going - and they have the largest budget surplus in the world. Australia's been captured by the economic rationalist ideology - privatise, sell off, drop trade barriers, outsource, employ nobody just contract out, etc.

It need not be so.

Yes, it would be a big change and is unlikely here, but the same is true of UBI and yet we're still here discussing it.

I'm as much for protecting workers as anyone.  But if we look at 3rd world countries becoming 2nd world countries and 2nd world countries becoming 1st world countries, isn't a lot of this rise, and its benefit for the broader humanity a result of the dropping of these trade barriers by countries like America and Australia?
I think that's a really good point. People in Australia complain that highly qualified and skilled Chinese/Indians are coming here to do fairly unsophisticated jobs like owning milk bars, driving taxis and working at 7/11 (thus depressing wages in those industries). What they don't realise is that these migrants' children become accountants, doctors, dentists, entertainers. We get an influx of talent and quality, and the third world countries from where they come benefit from family remittances. And the overall skill level of our society improves, which can only be a good thing.

Tyson

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #237 on: March 25, 2019, 08:00:27 PM »
I think the notion of full-time permanent work for pretty basic occupations that are easily outsourced (e.g. manufacturing, transport, retail) is an outdated one. That's just the world we live in. Today's workers have to get used to the gig economy and become agile and innovative to stay successful.
It's not the world we live in, it's the world we've chosen. Germany and similar countries have protectionist barriers up which have kept such jobs going - and they have the largest budget surplus in the world. Australia's been captured by the economic rationalist ideology - privatise, sell off, drop trade barriers, outsource, employ nobody just contract out, etc.

It need not be so.

Yes, it would be a big change and is unlikely here, but the same is true of UBI and yet we're still here discussing it.

I'm as much for protecting workers as anyone.  But if we look at 3rd world countries becoming 2nd world countries and 2nd world countries becoming 1st world countries, isn't a lot of this rise, and its benefit for the broader humanity a result of the dropping of these trade barriers by countries like America and Australia?
I think that's a really good point. People in Australia complain that highly qualified and skilled Chinese/Indians are coming here to do fairly unsophisticated jobs like owning milk bars, driving taxis and working at 7/11 (thus depressing wages in those industries). What they don't realise is that these migrants' children become accountants, doctors, dentists, entertainers. We get an influx of talent and quality, and the third world countries from where they come benefit from family remittances. And the overall skill level of our society improves, which can only be a good thing.

I meant it even more directly than that.  For example I work at a company that outsources a fair bit.  We set up a facility in (say) India.  We pay someone $15k a year to do some low level tech work.  After a year or 2, one of our competitors sets up a building literally across the street.  They offer $18k per year and snipe all our newly trained techs.  So now in order to compete we have to offer $18k to replace all the lost workers (the churn).  This type of bidding war happens a lot and pumps a lot of money into the local economies. 

Kyle Schuant

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #238 on: March 26, 2019, 07:13:06 PM »
I'm as much for protecting workers as anyone.  But if we look at 3rd world countries becoming 2nd world countries and 2nd world countries becoming 1st world countries, isn't a lot of this rise, and its benefit for the broader humanity a result of the dropping of these trade barriers by countries like America and Australia?
Yes. But two points:


Firstly, free trade has not been advertised to the public as a foreign aid programme. It was supposed to help us, too. And it hasn't. Or rather, it's helped the salaried classes, but not the waged classes, who have become the unemployed classes. So the salaried classes created policies which made the waged unemployed, and are now rebuking them for being unemployed.


Secondly, if not other countries then China and India at least have more than a billion people each. They have quite sufficient a domestic market to encourage development. Between them, for a Western lifestyle they'd need something like a billion mobile phones, a billion cars, a billion bicycles, a billion refrigerators, a billion washing machines, a billion televisions, and so on. And all the rail and roads and ports and all that to ship all the stuff around, and all the retail stores to buy them from, and endless middlemen to give small business loans, car loans, register vehicles, provide electricity for everything, and so on and so forth. That's enough to keep them all busy and their economy growing for about 100 years. They don't really need an added boost from us.


Free trade has made the process faster for them, but at the cost of vast amounts of poverty and suffering in the West.

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #239 on: March 27, 2019, 12:22:28 AM »
On the "how long it takes to wealth getting "lost" by heirs":

https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-1427-are-still-the-richest-families-in-florence/

Quote
The top earners among the current taxpayers were found to have already been at the top of the socioeconomic ladder six centuries ago,” Barone and Mocetti note on VoxEU. The study was able to exploit a unique data set—taxpayers data in 1427 was digitized and made available online—to show long-term trends of economic mobility.

Thank you for the excellent link, Lennstar The rich and influential want to stay rich and influential. I do not know if the study allows for people from different families becoming rich and influential during the Industrial Revolution.

LennStar

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #240 on: March 27, 2019, 02:30:42 AM »
On the "how long it takes to wealth getting "lost" by heirs":

https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-1427-are-still-the-richest-families-in-florence/

Quote
The top earners among the current taxpayers were found to have already been at the top of the socioeconomic ladder six centuries ago,” Barone and Mocetti note on VoxEU. The study was able to exploit a unique data set—taxpayers data in 1427 was digitized and made available online—to show long-term trends of economic mobility.

Thank you for the excellent link, Lennstar The rich and influential want to stay rich and influential. I do not know if the study allows for people from different families becoming rich and influential during the Industrial Revolution.

The study does not allow or not allow.
They just look if Rich in 15th century is still Rich in 20th century. Whatever happens in between is not looked at.
But it would be fairly surprising if the same families that were once rich lost their wealth and got rich again a century later ;)

No, it is basically what you can see everywhere: wealth is influence, influence is connections and connections is wealth. And the circle is more or less closed. (Even if you have one, it does not mean you automatically get the others, quite the opposite sometimes with the "new rich" and the sneering on them, who, partly as result, often lose their wealth in the following generation.)

That is also the reason why people from an influential family in England earn 5600 pounds more than their collegues from a poor background, even if they are in the same industry.
This is also the reason (imho) that there are still way more man in top positions than women. Women just don't get taken on those "team building" ventures with prostitutes (to use one of the more extreme examples).
And this is also the reason why 30 years after the Berlin Wall fell, there are still only 4% from East Germany in leading positions, though East Germany has 1/4 of the population of West Germany.
The world is not a meritocracy, as the neolibs tell us again and again, it is a connectocracy. (For US, see e.g. how many Senators are coming from a family that had a senator in the 2 generations before. Or the Bushes. Taking pure randomnes, how big is the chance that father and son become president? Somewhere around 1 to 100 million!)

Bloop Bloop

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #241 on: March 27, 2019, 02:39:44 AM »
Funny then that my parents migrated from a non-English speaking country with no assets and my parents still managed to be successful and now have a net wealth of about $5m at age 60. And have a look at all the Jewish, Asian, Indian and Mediterranean migrants who came to the U.S. (or wherever) in the second half of the 20th century - many of them only in the last generation - and are now working as doctors, lawyers, engineers.

I still believe  in meritocracy. Look at all the students at Harvard and Yale from non-white backgrounds (whose parents didn't pay $1m to get them in). Did they not get there by merit? Many of them are 1st or 2nd generation migrants.

LennStar

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #242 on: March 27, 2019, 10:03:14 AM »
Funny then that my parents migrated from a non-English speaking country with no assets and my parents still managed to be successful and now have a net wealth of about $5m at age 60. And have a look at all the Jewish, Asian, Indian and Mediterranean migrants who came to the U.S. (or wherever) in the second half of the 20th century - many of them only in the last generation - and are now working as doctors, lawyers, engineers.

I still believe  in meritocracy. Look at all the students at Harvard and Yale from non-white backgrounds (whose parents didn't pay $1m to get them in). Did they not get there by merit? Many of them are 1st or 2nd generation migrants.
You are aware that a statistic is made of of very many single data points?
The USA is one of least social mobility countries in the world. Still there are a lot of people who move up or down. This is no contradiction. That is the same.

And it does not say anything about how much work more those people had to do compared to "old families".

And since you pointed it out yourself: Are all those who paid 1 million to get in there based on their merit?

By the River

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #243 on: March 27, 2019, 10:45:45 AM »

"Unemployment" is a terrible measure of the economy (just like GDP).
94% of jobs created since 2005 are temp / part-time / indep contractor jobs without benefits and usually lower pay, but they're all counted equally as "jobs".
94%.... yes 94%. Let that sink in.
Unemployment also doesn't count the millions who left the work force - our labor force participation rate is extremely low
Unemployment also doesn't count underemployment


That 94% just seems off but will read where it comes from.  I looked at https://www.statista.com/statistics/192356/number-of-full-time-employees-in-the-usa-since-1990/ and https://www.statista.com/statistics/192338/number-of-part-time-employees-in-the-us-since-1990/

These show that 82% of the total increase in jobs are full-time jobs.  Of course full-time could include temp/contractor but I don't think its the overwhelming majority.  And self-employed total moved from 11.1% of employed in 2005 to 10.1% in 2015 (couldn't find more recent). 

I do agree that the published unemployment rate doesn't include underemployment so it gives only a partial view into the economy.
 


Tyson

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #245 on: March 27, 2019, 12:15:45 PM »
I'm as much for protecting workers as anyone.  But if we look at 3rd world countries becoming 2nd world countries and 2nd world countries becoming 1st world countries, isn't a lot of this rise, and its benefit for the broader humanity a result of the dropping of these trade barriers by countries like America and Australia?
Yes. But two points:


Firstly, free trade has not been advertised to the public as a foreign aid programme. It was supposed to help us, too. And it hasn't. Or rather, it's helped the salaried classes, but not the waged classes, who have become the unemployed classes. So the salaried classes created policies which made the waged unemployed, and are now rebuking them for being unemployed.


Secondly, if not other countries then China and India at least have more than a billion people each. They have quite sufficient a domestic market to encourage development. Between them, for a Western lifestyle they'd need something like a billion mobile phones, a billion cars, a billion bicycles, a billion refrigerators, a billion washing machines, a billion televisions, and so on. And all the rail and roads and ports and all that to ship all the stuff around, and all the retail stores to buy them from, and endless middlemen to give small business loans, car loans, register vehicles, provide electricity for everything, and so on and so forth. That's enough to keep them all busy and their economy growing for about 100 years. They don't really need an added boost from us.


Free trade has made the process faster for them, but at the cost of vast amounts of poverty and suffering in the West.

You are of course right.  3rd world and 2nd world countries are much better off, as is the white collar class in America.  But the working blue collar class is much worse off.  IMO that's actually the main reason Trump got elected.  He's the first R in 2 generations to say "Hey, NAFTA screwed you, maybe we should re-negotiate".  That was appalling to most R's but the working class voter was like "FINALLY SOMEBODY WHO GETS IT!!!"  And, he's not wrong. 

I do find it funny though, the very people that go on and on about their love of capitalism and the free market are now the very same people asking for government protection in the form of better trade agreements. 

Bloop Bloop

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #246 on: March 27, 2019, 03:45:07 PM »
Funny then that my parents migrated from a non-English speaking country with no assets and my parents still managed to be successful and now have a net wealth of about $5m at age 60. And have a look at all the Jewish, Asian, Indian and Mediterranean migrants who came to the U.S. (or wherever) in the second half of the 20th century - many of them only in the last generation - and are now working as doctors, lawyers, engineers.

I still believe  in meritocracy. Look at all the students at Harvard and Yale from non-white backgrounds (whose parents didn't pay $1m to get them in). Did they not get there by merit? Many of them are 1st or 2nd generation migrants.
You are aware that a statistic is made of of very many single data points?
The USA is one of least social mobility countries in the world. Still there are a lot of people who move up or down. This is no contradiction. That is the same.

And it does not say anything about how much work more those people had to do compared to "old families".

And since you pointed it out yourself: Are all those who paid 1 million to get in there based on their merit?
There's nothing wrong with a lack of social mobility. It may simply be down to good genes and good habits pairing with other good genes and good habits - assortative mating - in which case it's not at all a failure of meritocracy. The fact is that for someone with smarts and ambition, the U.S. (and other western countries) is still full of boundless opportunity. Scholarships, gifted and talented programs, free and reduced lunch programs, affirmative action. All those things help talented minorities.

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #247 on: March 27, 2019, 04:07:21 PM »
Funny then that my parents migrated from a non-English speaking country with no assets and my parents still managed to be successful and now have a net wealth of about $5m at age 60. And have a look at all the Jewish, Asian, Indian and Mediterranean migrants who came to the U.S. (or wherever) in the second half of the 20th century - many of them only in the last generation - and are now working as doctors, lawyers, engineers.

I still believe  in meritocracy. Look at all the students at Harvard and Yale from non-white backgrounds (whose parents didn't pay $1m to get them in). Did they not get there by merit? Many of them are 1st or 2nd generation migrants.
You are aware that a statistic is made of of very many single data points?
The USA is one of least social mobility countries in the world. Still there are a lot of people who move up or down. This is no contradiction. That is the same.

And it does not say anything about how much work more those people had to do compared to "old families".

And since you pointed it out yourself: Are all those who paid 1 million to get in there based on their merit?
There's nothing wrong with a lack of social mobility. It may simply be down to good genes and good habits pairing with other good genes and good habits - assortative mating - in which case it's not at all a failure of meritocracy. The fact is that for someone with smarts and ambition, the U.S. (and other western countries) is still full of boundless opportunity. Scholarships, gifted and talented programs, free and reduced lunch programs, affirmative action. All those things help talented minorities.

Step 1) Have well-off parents
Step 2) Live in the right place
Step 3) Have two parents
Step 4) Don't be unattractive
Step 5) Be white

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/will-i-be-rich-162733799.html

Those variables alone make a significant difference. It's easy for someone with multimillionare parents to do a bunch of handwaving about how "you just gotta work hard and it'll all be fine."

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #248 on: March 27, 2019, 04:56:20 PM »
Funny then that my parents migrated from a non-English speaking country with no assets and my parents still managed to be successful and now have a net wealth of about $5m at age 60. And have a look at all the Jewish, Asian, Indian and Mediterranean migrants who came to the U.S. (or wherever) in the second half of the 20th century - many of them only in the last generation - and are now working as doctors, lawyers, engineers.

I still believe  in meritocracy. Look at all the students at Harvard and Yale from non-white backgrounds (whose parents didn't pay $1m to get them in). Did they not get there by merit? Many of them are 1st or 2nd generation migrants.
You are aware that a statistic is made of of very many single data points?
The USA is one of least social mobility countries in the world. Still there are a lot of people who move up or down. This is no contradiction. That is the same.

And it does not say anything about how much work more those people had to do compared to "old families".

And since you pointed it out yourself: Are all those who paid 1 million to get in there based on their merit?
There's nothing wrong with a lack of social mobility. It may simply be down to good genes and good habits pairing with other good genes and good habits - assortative mating - in which case it's not at all a failure of meritocracy. The fact is that for someone with smarts and ambition, the U.S. (and other western countries) is still full of boundless opportunity. Scholarships, gifted and talented programs, free and reduced lunch programs, affirmative action. All those things help talented minorities.

Step 1) Have well-off parents
Step 2) Live in the right place
Step 3) Have two parents
Step 4) Don't be unattractive
Step 5) Be white

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/will-i-be-rich-162733799.html

Those variables alone make a significant difference. It's easy for someone with multimillionare parents to do a bunch of handwaving about how "you just gotta work hard and it'll all be fine."

Step 6) Be tall.  It significantly affects income. Height and IQ at age 11 are significant predictors of social mobility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

Bloop Bloop

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Re: $1000/month Universal Basic Income - Andrew Yang
« Reply #249 on: March 27, 2019, 05:14:11 PM »
My parents became multimillionaires by working their butts off (from scratch, and after learning a second language), the same way that I became a millionaire before 30 despite English not being my first language. I'm not white either, I'm olive, though I'll grant you that I'm tall. But then, if we list all our genetic/environmental advantages and disadvantages, we'd be here all day.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!