Author Topic: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!  (Read 12279 times)

sol

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2018, 12:09:08 PM »
Either way, the message is clear: FIRE is a reaction to negative forces rather than positive proaction. So we therefore need to make work less stressful and/or empower people at work to solve the FIRE problem.

This is one of the ancillary secrets of the FI lifestyle.  Working for The Man to put food on your table is inherently stressful, because you are subjugating your own desires out of fear.  It's modern day slavery, in which an elite class lives a life of relative luxury due to the servitude of the masses who toil on their behalf.  The fact that we've figured out how to make the slavery voluntary does not change the fundamental power dynamic; some people work for a living, and other people reap the profits of that work.

So all of the talk about making work better, of empowering people to pursue their dreams at work, is just misdirection.  It's just another way to keep the slaves toiling.  Real freedom is not needing to toil for anyone's interest other than your own, on your own time, at your own schedule, at work of your choosing.  You will never get that as long as you have traditional employment.  You will always be part of the servant class.

Consumerism is just another tool to keep you toiling, so all of the blogosphere rallying cry against it is kind of missing the larger point.  Yes, of course you need to give up mindless spending, but the real secret is to give up mindless working in order to continue the mindless spending.  To use the unfortunate example of American history, you don't set a man free by telling him he needs to stop getting whipped by the plantation owner, you set him free by telling him to stop picking the cotton.  It's the larger economic system in which he works for someone else's benefit that is the ultimate problem, not the tools the plantation owner uses to enforce that economic system.  Fight the power, not the means.

Quote
Because only paid employment can provide fulfillment?

I'm with you.  Paid employment doesn't provide fulfillment, it actively prevents you from finding fulfillment.

Fortunately for us, we live in a historic moment.  Possibly more than at any time in history, today it is possible for an industrious slave to buy his own freedom by the time he reaches middle age.  The ability to purchase a slice of corporate profits indefinitely has been a real game changer, compared to the options available to pre-revolution France, or class-bound India, or the slaves of the American South.

chaskavitch

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2018, 02:30:58 PM »
Update from the NYT, "Your questions about FIRE, answered": https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/style/what-is-fire-financial-independence-retire-early.html

There are currently 4 comments.  Three of them are about how it's mean and irresponsible to not plan to pay for your children's entire college education.  One of them wants "someone" to rerun their FIRE/4% withdrawal calculations starting in bad years like 1968, because then it will almost certainly fail.

catccc

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2018, 11:23:15 PM »
Nice article!  I've spent a lot of time on these forums, and previously, the early retirement forums.   I am curious where the lines are drawn regarding lean/regular/fat fire.  I've heard the terms thrown around a bit, but not really with numbers.  I'd guess I'm in the regular FIRE zone, currently at $1M and hoping to pull the plug at $1.5M.

maizefolk

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2018, 04:37:56 AM »
I think the terms originated on reddit, and I don't particularly care for then, but it seems to be a way to segregate the community in terms of what people think it is or isn't okay to hold each other accountable for:

LeanFIRE seems to mean you're allowed to criticize people who you think are spending on luxuries that probably don't actually make them happier, but you're not allowed to criticize people for not having enough saved or having an unrealistically optimistic view of future expenses or future desired lifestyle changes.

FatFIRE seems to mean you're allowed to criticize people who you think have cut back spending to the point that it compromises their happiness and/or future security, but you're not allowed to criticize people for basing their FIRE plans on ridiculously clown-car levels of conspicuous consumption and/or ridiculously pessimistic assumptions about safe withdrawal rates.

Linea_Norway

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2018, 05:19:49 AM »
Nice article!  I've spent a lot of time on these forums, and previously, the early retirement forums.   I am curious where the lines are drawn regarding lean/regular/fat fire.  I've heard the terms thrown around a bit, but not really with numbers.  I'd guess I'm in the regular FIRE zone, currently at $1M and hoping to pull the plug at $1.5M.

My definition:
Regular: You can continue to live like you do now in a frugal way. Maybe downsize to get there.
Lean: You need to make some badass choices to cut down costs make ends meet, maybe take a side-gig for the money and downsize.
Fat: You can live like you do now, can afford to travel around the world, pay for your children's education and continue to live in a clown house.

catccc

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2018, 09:08:06 AM »
Nice article!  I've spent a lot of time on these forums, and previously, the early retirement forums.   I am curious where the lines are drawn regarding lean/regular/fat fire.  I've heard the terms thrown around a bit, but not really with numbers.  I'd guess I'm in the regular FIRE zone, currently at $1M and hoping to pull the plug at $1.5M.

There are no lines.
They are vague concepts that you define for yourself based on your own personal needs.
This^^^. To me lean FIRE just means you have enough passive income to mean all "your" basic expenses without earned income. Whether  that's $500/month or $5000/month just depends on your own unique situation. Fat FIRE to me means you have a passive income far beyond your basic expenses and that extra allows you to do and buy "all the things" if you want.

I like these answers.

Nords

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2018, 10:14:19 AM »
Anyone else think it's kind of weird that Mr. 500 (or whatever his blogger superhero name is) moved to Longmont?  Uprooting your family, with young children, so you can fanboy on your favorite blogger?  That's one serious man crush on Pete.  I wonder if that is awkward for Pete. I kind of hope it is.   
Wow, Tom, I think you can lighten up a little.

Mindy & Carl (Mr. 1500 of 1500 Days to FI) reached their FI on his income and on a series of real-estate “live-in rehabs”.  They’d buy a crappy property, rehab it while living in it, sell it after two years (for tax-free capital gains), and repeat. 

Now that they’re FI and can work whenever/wherever they want, Mindy took a job at BiggerPockets.  She says it’s the best one she’s ever had— managing the site & forums of the nation’s largest real-estate investor community and co-hosting a podcast.  Carl has really mellowed out and started being less introverted.  They enjoy the Colorado climate, the outdoor recreation, and the people.

It’s not only about Pete, although it’s convenient that they’re so close to his co-working business and have so many real-estate investors (and FI aspirants) coming through the area.  Carl also might have a strong interest in craft beer.

I wish they would have highlighted some of the FIRE folks who didn't so heavily monetize their blogs... My favorite people are ones like LivingaFI/Dr. Doom, who created awesome content, but then didn't cash in on it.
We bloggers frequently get interview requests from freelancers, and occasionally from masthead journalists.  We tend to refer the people who we know will want to do the interviews.  The writers are typically on deadline and not typically interested in chasing down people who don’t seem interested in doing interviews. 

Maybe if you contacted your favorites then they’d be more inclined to do interviews.  Or maybe they’re not at all interested in the publicity.  I’d enjoy an update from LivingaFI.

Another thing I liked about the article and the way it portrayed the subject was the unconventional pose it used for Scott and Taylor Rieckens, with him sitting and her standing next to the chair he's sitting in, seeming to loom tall... which, in my view, is not a typical pose for heterosexual couples. (I pause here to consider that it may be because she is indeed taller than him [I don't know if this is the case] and this was a way to camouflage something about the couple that might mark them as atypical.) In any case, I really like the pose. And I will follow the links to the FI blogs I didn't know about prior to this article.
They’re a perfectly normal family.  They’re both about 5’9” (my height), although I didn’t whip out a tape measure.  A few months ago I spent a thoroughly enjoyable three hours with them (they were house-sitting by Kauai’s Hanalei Bay) as part of the documentary’s interviews.  There was also surfing, although I don’t know whether that’ll make the cut.

The “Playing With FIRE” documentary is in final editing (after more than two years of filming!) and might have a trailer next month.  It’ll probably be out before the end of the year, and I know the book is releasing in January.

K-ice

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2018, 07:23:59 PM »
Good article & comments. There are lots of other people & blogs to follow.

Nords

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2018, 06:26:07 AM »
But will we see you surfing? That's the good stuff ;-).
I sure hope so!  No promises, but we were out there for an hour. 

I even arranged for Scott to run over me so that the filming crew would force him to include that scene.  (Just kidding, Scott!)  It all depends on the context that they’re trying to present to the other 330 million Americans watching the documentary, and admittedly surfing Hanalei Bay might be pretty niche to everyone who’s more than 30 miles from a coastline.

I'm actually very curious to see how the movie comes out and what comments it will generate from the public. I suppose it will be mixed reviews like most of the articles. Plus it may only show a small segment of the FIRE population (bloggers like yourself) due to the rest of us ERees hiding when people want to interview us ;-).
Ironically most of us bloggers are even more introverted than most people... it’s why we become bloggers in the first place.  Otherwise we’d be motivational speakers and YouTube rockstars.

Maybe the documentary will drive more people into the mainstream and they’ll be doing more of the interviews.  “Playing with FIRE” is very marketable but I think the real interest is in FI without implying that you have to “retire”.

Last week I was at CampFI with over 40 other people who are already on the path to FI.  (Although one skeptical spouse really had his eyes opened and has now fully thrown in with the rest of the cult.)  I got zero questions about the flaws in the 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate or asset allocation.  I got hundreds of questions about “life after FI”.  I hope the documentary picks up on that from all of the interview footage.

FireLane

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Re: We are finally boring and mainstream! Hooray! - FIRE in NY Times!
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2018, 01:43:01 PM »
Last week I was at CampFI with over 40 other people who are already on the path to FI.  (Although one skeptical spouse really had his eyes opened and has now fully thrown in with the rest of the cult.)  I got zero questions about the flaws in the 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate or asset allocation.  I got hundreds of questions about “life after FI”.  I hope the documentary picks up on that from all of the interview footage.

That's how I feel too. Once you've read one post about the 4% SWR, you've read them all. The basic principles of FIRE are simple, and I don't need them repeated on every personal finance blog I read.

What I really want to hear about is how people live their lives post-RE. I want to know what cool adventures they're having, how they occupy their time on a daily basis, what new challenges they've encountered.