Author Topic: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...  (Read 12750 times)

Gray Peachfuzz

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Age: 68
  • Location: North Cackalacky
I came across this article (and new to me website it's from) about storing and using the rainwater that falls on your roof. The most interesting part? In some states, you don't own the water that falls on your property, and therefore you can't collect it! Land of the free, amirite?  Two noteworthy things: The very large collection containers (275 gallons, don't try to move it when full) were obtained on Craigslist for $40. Score! Also, the website has a tab on how to build things from shipping pallets.  Enjoy some badassity!

http://oldworldgardenfarms.com/2015/01/30/how-to-easily-collect-rain-water-for-your-outdoor-watering-needs/


nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2015, 07:35:47 AM »
I came across this article (and new to me website it's from) about storing and using the rainwater that falls on your roof. The most interesting part? In some states, you don't own the water that falls on your property, and therefore you can't collect it! Land of the free, amirite? 

'Water-Rights' have a long and storied history.  Personally, I believe that we should allow people to store rainwater that falls on their permitted roof*, but allow me to at least give another perspective.
When I worked for the great state of California I was involved in salmon monitoring and stock augmentation.  As an economically valuable resource (i.e. they are fished) there is a lot of shareholders interested in the salmon's survival.  Most of the actual salmon spawning occurs in small streams and creeks (the ones I worked in were ~15 feet across in places).  Throughout the entire length of these streams and creeks there are houses and farms.  Many have started using water reclaimation systems.  While this can be great for the landowner, the result is that the flow in the creeks diminishes, and the salmon can't spawn.  It's a classic problem of an individual's actions having consequences downstream (in this case literally).  So what's a municipality to do when they are charged with making sure the flow in rivers and streams isn't diverted into holding tanks and sewer systems...

You can make lots of parallel analogies here.  In many lake-front and ocean-front properties you cannot chop down all the trees to give yourself a nice view because it accelerates runoff and impacts the lake (check out the Keep Tahoe Blue info).

*As I said, my personal belief is that you should be allowed to collect rainwater that falls on a permitted roof.  Once people start diverting all the water that falls on their property big problems start to emerge.  You can't drain an inconvenient wetland if it's critical habitat for certain species.  The list goes on.  Frankly, the idea that "it's my property and i can do whatever the hell I damn want" should have limits.

 

jengod

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Location: Near LAX
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 09:40:33 AM »
Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond by Brad Lancaster is a terrific source on this. There can be a lot more to it than rain barrels, notably that you can/should sequester rain water in the soil (from whence it can seep back to the fishies as well).

Scroll down a smidge for his videos, which are a great primer if you want to learn more:

http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/

This guy does a lot of thinking about "first, do no harm" water management:

http://www.watershedartisans.com/

Roland of Gilead

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 09:50:20 AM »
Once you realize you can never really *own* land, it becomes easier to accept the various intrusions.

This is one reason why we have decide to just be tenants.   Even landlords are really just tenants to another landlord (the government)

CommonCents

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2363
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 10:56:04 AM »
Ironically, we have the opposite problem.

We live on a pond.  Should we wish to expand our house footprint, we would need to have an engineer certify that we've designed a system to collect the rain from the roof of this additional footprint before our addition would be approved.  (I'm not sure why - when we moved in the pond was pretty low and could have used extra water, but this is what all of our neighbors told us, not that we were asking.)

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 11:15:13 AM »
As silly as this seems, I'm fully in support of outlawing rain barrels.

Riverfront property is a useful analogy.  You can't build the Hoover dam on the river just because you own a riverfront lot, because the river itself does not belong to you.  You would be infringing on other river users.

In this corner of the world, water right are legally separate from property rights.  You buy them separately, and often from different parties.

One of the primary functions of government is to manage the natural resources that keep the economy running.  In some cases that means prohibiting actions that would infringe or degrade the resource for everyone else.  Without this function, we end up in a "tragedy of the commons" scenario where everyone contributes to their own destruction through short term profit seeking.

Rain barrels steal water that does not belong to you, just like the river does not belong to you. In most places that's totally fine, and government allows you to steal it because nobody else is complaining about missing it.  But in some places, your neighbors do complain, and have the legal right to do so.  We've had all kinds of nasty lawsuits around here over this very issue.  Whole towns have had their water supply shut off in drought years due to other people illegally tapping water they think should be free.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23129
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 11:30:23 AM »
Taking potshots at planes as they pass through the airspace over my property is probably illegal too.  Damn you Obama.

CommonCents

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2363
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 11:34:06 AM »
Oh and FYI - water rights in the US differ I understand, generally  breaking down to east coast (riparian) and west coast (Colorado doctrine).  Colorado is a first use, while riparian requires reasonable use for a beneficial purpose. 

Cecil

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 301
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Vancouver, Canada
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 02:02:18 PM »
What's really interesting is that lots of places in Canada actually have government *incentive programs* to install rainbarrels.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 02:11:03 PM »
What's really interesting is that lots of places in Canada actually have government *incentive programs* to install rainbarrels.
why is this surprising?  Canada has ~35MM people, the vast majority of whom live in areas with abundant rain & snowfall.  Rain-barrels are great when there's no shortage of rainfall; it means the towns don't have to build up the infrastructure to bring larger volumes of water to more homes.  Limiting or prohibiting rainfall storage only makes sense when you have a lot of people living in areas where there isn't a huge amount of rainfall to begin with.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 02:17:47 PM »
Colorado is a first use, while riparian requires reasonable use for a beneficial purpose.

We have a beneficial use mandate here in the PNW too, but it's pretty loosely interpreted to include anything that makes money.  We also have a "use or lose" rule that cedes any unused portion of a water right back to the state.  Put them together and some farmers with senior water rights will pump water and dump it into the street just to preserve their allocation for future years, while their neighbor loses crops due to drought.  It's a pretty messed up system, but still vastly superior to the kind of free for all that has contributed to the California drought.  California doesn't have these laws, and they're worse off for it.

The beneficial use rule has never really been challenged in court.  Theoretically you can take someone else's water right if you have s higher value use for it than they do, but that has never been attempted before.

Rule one: water flows downhill towards rivers and oceans.
Rule two: water flows uphill towards money and power.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 02:56:29 PM by sol »

gaja

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1681
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 02:38:58 PM »
Very interesting to read about rain water being a scarce resource. I've never thought about it before, have always thought rain barrels were genious, since then the municipality doesn't have to use energy to process and transport the water. We don't really have a lack of rain and snow, so for us a rain barrel would make sense. But good to be reminded that one size doesn't fit all.

A question: wouldn't a rain barrel and self contained system have a smaller loss of water due to evaporation? And, if the water is used for gardening or you make some sort of grey water system, wouldn't it go back into the eco system? Is the problem of rain barrels if you use it for drinking water or other uses that leads it into the waste pipes? Or are there other issues I haven't understood?

gimp

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2344
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2015, 02:50:54 PM »
Yeah, water rights are complicated, especially complicated by the many ways in which water flows (apart from downhill, also into the air and sewers and ocean and into products that are transported and sold) and age-old laws, and the difficulty of figuring it all out.

A rain barrel and self contained system may have a smaller loss depending on various circumstances. If the water wasn't gathered, where would it go? And of course, evaporated water isn't lost, it's simply transferred onto the ground at a later date in a different place (or the same place, who knows).

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2015, 02:57:20 PM »
Very interesting to read about rain water being a scarce resource. I've never thought about it before, have always thought rain barrels were genious, since then the municipality doesn't have to use energy to process and transport the water. We don't really have a lack of rain and snow, so for us a rain barrel would make sense. But good to be reminded that one size doesn't fit all.
Yeah, it's funny how different mentalities are between regions.  I moved from California (severe water shortage) to Quebec (incredible surplus of freshwater), and I'm sometimes blown away at how people treat water here.  I watched my neighbor spend 30 minutes washing his driveway last weekend. Such behavior is not a problme here... in California it would be criminal (literally).

Quote
A question: wouldn't a rain barrel and self contained system have a smaller loss of water due to evaporation? And, if the water is used for gardening or you make some sort of grey water system, wouldn't it go back into the eco system? Is the problem of rain barrels if you use it for drinking water or other uses that leads it into the waste pipes? Or are there other issues I haven't understood?
That's a common misperception.  Most of the rainwater that falls has a very short residual time and winds up in creeks and streams within a few hours.  However, when you store it in rain-barrels or cisterns it doesn't make it into the streams.  Instead, it's either used as gray-water (where it gets diverted into the sewage system) or it gets applied to lawns and crops when it hasn't rained in a while.  IN the latter case it gets absorbed into the soil (because the soil is dry) and then it evaporates either from the soil or (hopefully) through plant transpiration.  Very little goes the 'normal' route into creeks and then streams and then rivers and lakes.  You are right that eventually it gets returned to the ecosystem, but the majority of it re=enters the ecosytem 'somewhere else.'

The_Crustache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2015, 03:03:10 PM »
Nereo, not to derail the thread, but what brought you from California to QC?

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2015, 03:22:36 PM »
Nereo, not to derail the thread, but what brought you from California to QC?
Basically a job.  At the time (2011) California was undergoing intense budget cuts and there was a lot of uncertainty around my work.  At the same time there was a very attractive project just starting here in Quebec.  I've moved several times, so this wasn't new (although the french certainly is)
PM me if you want to know more details.

TreeTired

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
  • Age: 139
  • Location: North Carolina
  • I think we can make it (We made it!)
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2015, 03:32:21 PM »
So can I be arrested in Oregon for tilting my open mouth upward in the rain and swallowing rainwater.... which does not belong to me?

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2015, 04:51:08 PM »
So can I be arrested in Oregon for tilting my open mouth upward in the rain and swallowing rainwater.... which does not belong to me?
As far as I'm aware, the law only applies to rainfall once it hits either the ground or a structure.  So you should be good drinking rain out of the air like a chicken, but you could be locked up for drinking rain that runs off your roof ;-)

While we're asking ridiculous questions - when I used to work on sail boats we'd routinely capture rainwater off the sails to use for showering and washing dishes & clothes.  If you are within 3 miles of the coast you are within that state's jurisdiction, so I suppose I could be arrested for 'harvesting' rainwater that otherwise would have fallen into the ocean, right?

kimmarg

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Location: Northern New England
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2015, 05:06:11 PM »
Taking potshots at planes as they pass through the airspace over my property is probably illegal too.  Damn you Obama.

Interestingly the Supreme Court has already settled that one. Your air space is 70ft. FAA takes over at 200ft. 70-200 is currently in litigation with all the new drones etc.


Re rain water: I have a barrel but then I just have to dump it somewhere! I can't be bothered to collect rain water. We get 40" of rain a year - I dumped it once and it filled back up in 45min of rain. My water bill is $15/month. For the few times I have new seedlings that need it, I use the hose.

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2015, 06:30:39 PM »
I remember recent issues around here during a drought.   Lakes were running dry because a downstream town had water rights and the lakes had to let a certain amount of water go.  That amount of water was absorbed/evaporated before reaching the sites that claimed the rights.  Lose/lose.

jengod

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Location: Near LAX
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2015, 07:35:37 PM »
Here in Los Angeles, rain barrels are encouraged and actively subsidized by the water district because water that is not intentionally retained in vessels or in the soil will most likely drain into the street, through the overtaxed sewer systems and out into the bay, bringing with it urban runoff pollution including motor oil, cigarette butts and animal waste.

Also, we are in an insane drought here in Southern California, so yard irrigation by locally-caught rainwater is preferable to irrigation by potable water delivered via a distant, energy-intensive aqueduct system.

Bicycle_B

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1809
  • Mustachian-ish in Live Music Capital of the World
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2015, 12:03:36 PM »
Colorado is a first use, while riparian requires reasonable use for a beneficial purpose.

We have a beneficial use mandate here in the PNW too, but it's pretty loosely interpreted to include anything that makes money.  We also have a "use or lose" rule that cedes any unused portion of a water right back to the state.  Put them together and some farmers with senior water rights will pump water and dump it into the street just to preserve their allocation for future years, while their neighbor loses crops due to drought.  It's a pretty messed up system, but still vastly superior to the kind of free for all that has contributed to the California drought.  California doesn't have these laws, and they're worse off for it.

The beneficial use rule has never really been challenged in court.  Theoretically you can take someone else's water right if you have s higher value use for it than they do, but that has never been attempted before.

Rule one: water flows downhill towards rivers and oceans.
Rule two: water flows uphill towards money and power.

As my sister was once wont to say:  Well, that's a deep thought!

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2015, 01:27:14 PM »
As my sister was once wont to say:  Well, that's a deep thought!

Groundwater jokes!  There's a little corner of the internet most people never see..

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2015, 05:20:15 PM »
As my sister was once wont to say:  Well, that's a deep thought!

Groundwater jokes!  There's a little corner of the internet most people never see..
what did the fish in the reservoir say when he ran into a wall?

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2015, 05:23:49 PM »
As my sister was once wont to say:  Well, that's a deep thought!

Groundwater jokes!  There's a little corner of the internet most people never see..

They're so draining.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2015, 05:35:43 PM »
As my sister was once wont to say:  Well, that's a deep thought!

Groundwater jokes!  There's a little corner of the internet most people never see..
this thread has just dried up...

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2015, 05:40:32 PM »
don't plumb new depths guys

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2015, 03:46:04 PM »
As my sister was once wont to say:  Well, that's a deep thought!

Groundwater jokes!  There's a little corner of the internet most people never see..
what did the fish in the reservoir say when he ran into a wall?

Grate?

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2015, 03:46:49 PM »
don't plumb new depths guys

Some of these posts need to be filtered. The puns are a bit strained.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2015, 03:46:59 PM »
Tens of thousands of gallons of some other jerk's water is coming down on my house in torrents right now...

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2015, 03:50:00 PM »
what did the fish in the reservoir say when he ran into a wall?

Grate?

I think the answer you were looking for is "dam!"  That's one of those jokes that doesn't usually require the punchline to actually be delivered. 

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2015, 04:01:57 PM »
Tens of thousands of gallons of some other jerk's water is coming down on my house in torrents right now...

Maybe if it causes any damage (leaks, washouts, etc) he can be held liable.  ;)

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2015, 04:15:27 PM »
what did the fish in the reservoir say when he ran into a wall?

Grate?

I think the answer you were looking for is "dam!"  That's one of those jokes that doesn't usually require the punchline to actually be delivered.

Ah, I was thinking the grate to keep the fish from going through the turbines. Sorry, my brain's a little water-logged.

davisgang90

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
  • Location: Roanoke, VA
    • Photography by Rich Davis
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2015, 06:06:09 AM »
My parents had a big garden in northern Virginia in the 70's.  We had a rain barrel setup to catch water from our roof.  In the event of a rainstorm my brother and I were sent out to siphon water out of the bucket into large wine bottles to make sure the barrel didn't overflow and lose water.

Good times!

Heckler

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1612
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2015, 03:43:19 PM »
We were just in a house in Germany that used rainwater for the toilets and garden hose.  Brilliant IMO. It'll just end up in the garden or the sewer anyway!

FIRE me

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1097
  • Location: Louisville, KY
  • So much technology, so little talent.
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2015, 07:21:08 PM »
I came across this article (and new to me website it's from) about storing and using the rainwater that falls on your roof. The most interesting part? In some states, you don't own the water that falls on your property, and therefore you can't collect it! Land of the free, amirite? 


Where I live you are charged a “drainage fee” that is added to your sewer bill. Said fee is for the rain that falls upon your real estate. Got a vacant property? Want to turn off all utilities? No problem. But you'll still be billed the monthly “drainage fee” by the sewer operator. What a racket, making people pay for rain!

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2015, 09:15:23 AM »
Where I live in Missouri this is a laughable concept.  It rains here a lot and water literally bubbles out of the ground.   We are on a well and have a ground source well based heat/AC system that uses 4 gallons of water per minute.  Most all construction projects are now required to have rain water retention designs.

the math doesn't really work in my head either for the environmental argument out west on the salmon streams.   

The amount of roof adjacent to a salmon stream has to equal a minute area of the total area surrounding a stream.    Let's say that there are 1000 houses on that 15' stream and they each collects 500 gallons.  (very unlikely).  So that totals 500,000 gallons.   Let's assume that this process is 24 hours.  So that is 20,000 gallons.  Let's assume that the stream is 100,000 feet long (20 miles).  So that is .2 gallons less per linear foot of stream.  On a 15 foot wide stream that is .01 gallons per foot.   Assuming average depth of 1 foot we are looking at a differential of approximately .005 inches.     This during a rain storm!

In order to collect 500 gallons off a 2000 square ft roof it would need to rain (231 cubic inches in a gallon of water)  about 1/2 inch.    I assure you that 1/2 of inch of rain over a drainage basin for a 20 mile long stream is a hell of a lot of water.   (in the area of 2 billion gallons)    So that 500,000 gallons is around .00025% of the total rain fall.   

One also has to understand that roofs accelerate run off so diverting to a rain barrel is generally a good thing.   Much of that roof water would have been absorbed and released in subsurface water flows typically prior to a roof being put up. 

There may be some weird western thing going on in these salmon streams but I'm doubting that roof water retention is a negative.  My guess is that it is a net positive and should be encouraged. 

Of course I could be totally wrong. 

I would also be interested to know where these homes on salmon streams acquire their water to begin with?   Are they on wells?  Do they use septics?   Do they use holding tanks that are pumped?  Do they use composting toilets?   Is their water hauled in?   Are they on county water systems? 

I'm all for salmon habitat!   But illegal to retain and then release your rain water slowly, overtime, seems like an over enthusiastic conservationist who is bad at math was given too much authority. 

If I'm wrong please present your actual fact and figures.   It would help to look at a specific area with a specific number of homes,  and a defined drainage basin. 

This is actually a very interesting issue to me as we basically suck at rainwater management, stream management and water conservation in general. 






nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2015, 10:07:15 AM »

the math doesn't really work in my head either for the environmental argument out west on the salmon streams.   
[lots of math figures, none of which i dispute]

One also has to understand that roofs accelerate run off so diverting to a rain barrel is generally a good thing.   Much of that roof water would have been absorbed and released in subsurface water flows typically prior to a roof being put up. 

There may be some weird western thing going on in these salmon streams but I'm doubting that roof water retention is a negative.  My guess is that it is a net positive and should be encouraged. 

Of course I could be totally wrong. 

I would also be interested to know where these homes on salmon streams acquire their water to begin with?   

Ok, I'll respond, since this is an area I spent a lot of time working on. 
I'll start by saying my personal opinion is that people should be able to store water that falls on their roof, but not necessarily divert water that has fallen on their entire property (which is what some people do).

First, a few things about the actual salmon streams in central California.  Unlike many of the picturesque mega-rivers like the Colombia, Klamath etc. much of the salmon habitat are in small watersheds (often called creeks) that are just a few miles long.  And there are dozens of them along every 100mi stretch of coastline.   But just because they are small doesn't mean they aren't important, since historically these creeks had salmon runs numbering in the thousands, and downstream smolt (baby salmon) out-migrations numbering in the hundreds-of-thousands.  Two other 'odd' things about these small creeks/rivers.  They are often surrounded by completely lined with suburban development (people loved to build houses next to salmon creeks/rivers) and they have river mouths that are blocked by sand bars during the dry season, and are typically only open during the rainy season (typically November - April).  For example, Santa Cruz gets about 31 inches of rain per year, of which 22 falls in just those four months.  Typically less than an inch total falls between June 1st and October 1st.
So - what's crucial for salmon is that they get these large-water pulses during heavy rainfalls to break open the sand bars and allow the adult salmon to come upstream and breed, and the young-of-year smolts to head out to sea.  If the flow isn't high enough, it doesn't happen and that year becomes a bad salmon spawning year.  There's a definite threshold at work.

So - that sets the scene.  I'd say you are completely right that just the rain that falls on homes isn't a huge about relative to everything else around, but the core problem is that we've already monkeyed around with the system so much that it's not just about the rainfall on the roofs. Roads and driveways have their own system (storm-drains and culverts) which were built to take water quickly to the ocean, often bypassing the streams entirely.  And then there's agriculture, which take the lion's share of water in California (estimates as high as 80%).  Many of them either pump water from wells (which lowers the water table and reduces rain runoff into streams) or they take water out of the streams themselves.  Then they use their own drainage ditches to divert and recycle as much water as they can back towards their fields, because they aren't stupid and a major cost is irrigation.

Getting back to the houses and rainfall on roofs....  most of these homes are on 1/4 acre (10,890 ft2) lots with large homes with big roofs (1000 ft2). That means ~10% of all water that falls can be falling on a person's roof, and another ~5-8% can be on the person's driveway which diverts most of its water into the storm-drains.  So it is indeed a small fraction of the total, but not an insignificant fraction.
The laws are so complex and "Big-Ag" have so much power (indeed they get a written allotment every year based on the snowpack) that it's hard to restrict their usage - they have a definite economical need.  Residential homes, however, are easier to regulate through muni-codes, and since a home isn't a for-profit business it's easy to say "no rain storage for you!".

A far more effective solution is to allow the rainwater to reach watersheds more naturally instead of diverting it back into the watersheds and by allowing streams to naturally migrate as they once did instead of channeling them through culverts.  CalTrans (the department responsible for all road-building) is doing exactly this, but it's an infrasturcture problem - drains and culverts are being replaced once they have passed their natural service life (often waaaay past), and many are 50+ years old.  There's also always the danger that runoff will kill all life in a stream if some a**hole decides to pour a gallon of RoundUp down the storm drain instead of disposing of it properly.

To finish up, Salmon in most places are screwed, with current runs in most places only ~1-5% of historical runs.  Problem is, many are listed under the federal ESA act of 1973 as either endangered (e.g. Coho salmon) or threatened (central coast Steelhead) - which means we are mandated to take steps to ensure protection of their habitat (and in many places augment the stock with hatchery-reared smolts).  Hence - restrictions on collecting the water that falls on your roof.  It's one thing that can be done, even though it will have only a small effect overall.

hope that at least gives you some insight.

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2015, 10:26:35 AM »
Yes Nero --- Thanks for that!   Very enlightening. 

It is indeed a tragedy that such a magnificent resource like the salmon has been endangered due to our shared pasture concepts.   

I wouldn't fight the rain water roof collection issue but it is kinda like targeting 85% of the people for a problem that is created and perpetuated by the other 15% (industry, ag, diversion).   

I hope that by the time my 7 year old is 50 that salmon will have returned in significant numbers.   

You guys might want to restrict sales of round up and other herbicides as well IMHO.   

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2015, 11:13:44 AM »
to answer one more of your questions:
Quote
I would also be interested to know where these homes on salmon streams acquire their water to begin with?   Are they on wells?  Do they use septics?   Do they use holding tanks that are pumped?  Do they use composting toilets?   Is their water hauled in?   Are they on county water systems? 
I know central California the best... Water to residential homes comes from a series of reservoirs, plus most municipalities actually have really effective waste-water treatment plants that recycle the water.  AFAIK most of the reservoirs (e.g. Shasta, lake san antonio, hetch-hetchy, san louis etc) are all dammed reservoirs that have no salmon migration into them (no salmon ladders or transport). Southern California gets most of its water via the California aquaduct system built in the 1960s.  It relocates/steals water from the sierra-nevadas in the north to the very populated areas to the south (L.A., San Diego, etc) as well as supplying the water for most of the crops in SoCal. It can 're-locate' a truly obscene amount of water - about 100,000 gallons every second, from NorCal to SoCal.  Most of this water would otherwise flow into the Sacramento-San Joaquin delta via various creeks, streams, tributaries and rivers.

There are homes that are on septic systems or use composting toilets, but by-and-large the coast is so developed that most areas have 'city' water and sewer service.

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2015, 12:49:58 PM »
to answer one more of your questions:
Quote
I would also be interested to know where these homes on salmon streams acquire their water to begin with?   Are they on wells?  Do they use septics?   Do they use holding tanks that are pumped?  Do they use composting toilets?   Is their water hauled in?   Are they on county water systems? 
I know central California the best... Water to residential homes comes from a series of reservoirs, plus most municipalities actually have really effective waste-water treatment plants that recycle the water.  AFAIK most of the reservoirs (e.g. Shasta, lake san antonio, hetch-hetchy, san louis etc) are all dammed reservoirs that have no salmon migration into them (no salmon ladders or transport). Southern California gets most of its water via the California aquaduct system built in the 1960s.  It relocates/steals water from the sierra-nevadas in the north to the very populated areas to the south (L.A., San Diego, etc) as well as supplying the water for most of the crops in SoCal. It can 're-locate' a truly obscene amount of water - about 100,000 gallons every second, from NorCal to SoCal.  Most of this water would otherwise flow into the Sacramento-San Joaquin delta via various creeks, streams, tributaries and rivers.

There are homes that are on septic systems or use composting toilets, but by-and-large the coast is so developed that most areas have 'city' water and sewer service.

Wow and double wow!   100,000 gallons per second!  So developed they have city water.  Amazing shit.   I am so blessed to live in the Ozarks!

Most of the streams I float around here have either no or a hand few of houses.  What a different picture you paint. 

100K per second has to be per minute right?   The Mississippi river does around 1.5 million per second,  so I guess 100K per second isn't off base though! 
Based on that number and the 80/20 ag/personal that would only be 25 gallons per day per person in Cali. 

And that number makes desalination sound damn near impossible.   

It is just obscene that all the rivers have been damned and diverted.   We have several damns around here but most streams remain relatively free flowing. 

The Missouri River is listed at around 150,000 gallons per minute (not second) and it is a very big river!


nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17501
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2015, 02:21:56 PM »
Wow and double wow!   100,000 gallons per second!  So developed they have city water.  Amazing shit.   I am so blessed to live in the Ozarks!

Most of the streams I float around here have either no or a hand few of houses.  What a different picture you paint. 

100K per second has to be per minute right?   The Mississippi river does around 1.5 million per second,  so I guess 100K per second isn't off base though! 
Based on that number and the 80/20 ag/personal that would only be 25 gallons per day per person in Cali. 

And that number makes desalination sound damn near impossible.   

It is just obscene that all the rivers have been damned and diverted.   We have several damns around here but most streams remain relatively free flowing. 

The Missouri River is listed at around 150,000 gallons per minute (not second) and it is a very big river!
Yup, that's 100k gallons per second at it's maximum rate.  It's amazing, and that primarily goes towards southern california. When you are driving down I-5 you cross the main aquaduct several times, and in most places it's as wide as a 2-lane highway and deep enough to submerge a truck in.  Most of northern & central californai utilize other reservoirs, plus there's wastewater treatment plants, lots of wells, some de-sal etc. so the aquaduct doesn't provide 100% of California's needs.  There are now companies and cities that want to do 'ground-water injection' to pump fresh water back INTO the underground aquafers, since they have effectively been drained by this latest drought.  When you start thinking about the needs of 35MM people plus one of the biggest agricultural states in the US it gets mind-boggling complex.  The entire system was put into place by current the father of the current governer, and it's being overhauled in a major way.  Time will tell what becomes of everything - it's a giant mess of battles now.
The vast majority of Californians live within 50 miles of the coast.

Here's a map of all the dams in the US, just to offer some perspective: https://savvyangler.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/dams.jpg
Starting int he 1920s (and accelerating during with the CCC during great depression) we had a national policy to "tame the wilderness" and we built dams large and small with reckless abandon, often draining 'useless' wetlands in the process so we could 'reclaim' earth to build houses on.  Decades later we came to realize this had some pretty heavy consequences, but politically it's very hard to remove a dam - people who bought lakefront property don't suddenly want their home to be miles from a small river, and you need to find a source of drinking water somewhere else.  Plus, dams do a good job of controlling flooding.
If you want a sense of how hard it is (politically) to take out a dam, google the Mactaquac dam in NB, Canada (or go here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/mactaquac-dam-s-future-sparks-debate-1.1400387)

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2015, 02:37:57 PM »
Super interesting.  Thanks Nereo.     

Reminds me of Niagara Falls.   Most people don't realize that a large percentage  of the falls is diverted to generate power.  (up to 75%)  The plant was a Tesla plant and I believe still generates power using the original Tesla coils. 

I imagine removing a damn is nearly impossible.   

We had a damn break about 10 years ago.   It was a high storage damn that functioned by pumping water up to it during the night and releasing during the day.

It swept down river over a popular camp ground.   Luckily it was off season and no one was killed (it could have been thousands).   They just went right ahead and rebuilt it and closed the public tours.  Granted a bunch of money to the state camp ground. 

So yeah,  Damn breaks  --- replace it immediately. 

dude

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2369
Re: The water that falls on your roof? Yeah, you don't own that...
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2015, 07:46:54 AM »
Cali folks are very familiar with water shortage issues.  My friend who lives there actually catches his shower water -- the water you let run for 15-20 seconds before it warms up -- and uses it to irrigate his lemon trees and a few other crops/plants/bushes he's got on his property.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!