The 'Busy' Trap

[arebelspy]

Article in the NYT that argues we shouldn't be so busy, but instead be more idle.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/the-busy-trap/

Excerpt:

Idleness is not just a vacation, an indulgence or a vice; it is as indispensable to the brain as vitamin D is to the body, and deprived of it we suffer a mental affliction as disfiguring as rickets. The space and quiet that idleness provides is a necessary condition for standing back from life and seeing it whole, for making unexpected connections and waiting for the wild summer lightning strikes of inspiration — it is, paradoxically, necessary to getting any work done.

I think many Mustachians will agree with this article's attitude and have it as one of their reasons for wanting FI.

[GW]

I liked this article. One quote in particular sums up my personal outlook: "I am the laziest ambitious person I know."

[arebelspy]

I liked this article. One quote in particular sums up my personal outlook: "I am the laziest ambitious person I know."

I loved that quote too.

I work (sorta) hard now so I can be idle later... or at least have the choice to be idle, and indulge in work when I want.

There was a recent blog post on LackingAmbition.com that had a similar theme:
http://lackingambition.com/?p=1103

[mechanic baird]

part of the article was talking about today's children's "extracurricular activities" that parents feel obligated to enroll them in..
Funny that if I remember correctly, the best part of my childhood was those 3 hour unstructured time every afternoon after school. I played with kids from my class, rolled in dirt, climbed the walls, listen to stories on the radio... Those were by far the most fun time and fond memory I have...

[velocistar237]

Cal Newport of Study Hacks lists "underschedule" as the first of three principles to his zen valedictorian philosophy.

[Osprey]

I read this on the weekend and posted it on my facebook. One friend re-posted with the comment "Why you should be lazy:"

That word lazy has so many bad connotations to me, so immediately I felt silly for sharing the article. We need a new set of words to describe what we're trying to do. No more talk of "retirement" and "idleness" please! Anyone have suggestions?
For example, "FI" has good connotations...

[arebelspy]

I read this on the weekend and posted it on my facebook. One friend re-posted with the comment "Why you should be lazy:"

That word lazy has so many bad connotations to me, so immediately I felt silly for sharing the article. We need a new set of words to describe what we're trying to do. No more talk of "retirement" and "idleness" please! Anyone have suggestions?
For example, "FI" has good connotations...

Leisure? 

[grantmeaname]

"Why you should be deliberate with how you spend your time". I think I got that use of 'deliberate' from the slow food movement, but I think it applies well here.

[cdttmm]

I liked this article. One quote in particular sums up my personal outlook: "I am the laziest ambitious person I know."

I love that line.  I also thought this was a keeper:

"The Puritans turned work into a virtue, evidently forgetting that God invented it as a punishment."

[igthebold]

I liked this article. One quote in particular sums up my personal outlook: "I am the laziest ambitious person I know."

I love that line.  I also thought this was a keeper:

"The Puritans turned work into a virtue, evidently forgetting that God invented it as a punishment."

Technically speaking, that's not correct. God cursed the work they already had, but work was an integral part of Eden/Paradise.

I think that resonates with a lot of people here anyway. What people don't like is the "toil" aspect of work (dealing with some people, pulling weeds, etc).

Even someone who wants to characterize his life by productivity would be well-served to do like grantmeaname said: "...be deliberate with how you spend your time." Someone who wants to work for something meaningful shouldn't schedule away all his time with stuff that is valuable to somebody, but not necessarily meaningful.

[gooki]

Thanks for the good read.

[darkelenchus]

No more talk of "retirement" and "idleness" please! Anyone have suggestions?

Leisure?

Yes. Leisure is the proper term. It's just so boring. "Idleness" is the polar opposite of workaholism, though, so it's got the shock value to draw attention. I suspect using "retirement" (i.e. something people associate with their so-called "golden years") in place of "financial independence" or "self-reliance" (i.e. ideas that aren't necessarily associated with any age) has a similar effect.

[Nords]

That word lazy has so many bad connotations to me, so immediately I felt silly for sharing the article. We need a new set of words to describe what we're trying to do. No more talk of "retirement" and "idleness" please! Anyone have suggestions?
For example, "FI" has good connotations...

I prefer "self-directed exploration". 

Not all those who wander are lost...

[Osprey]

I am going to try out some of these other words in conversations. I especially like "deliberate."

[igthebold]

I like these thoughts. I'm gradually clarifying my own thoughts, and I think idleness is at the level of busyness, activity, etc.. that is, it just describes what you're doing at any given moment. As such, we all need some idleness just as we need some activity.

Laziness, on the other hand, has a moral component.. it describes the character of the person. I suspect some of these authors describe themselves as "lazy," when what they really mean is "willing to live in such a way that isn't merely busy." I'm fine if they use the term for rhetorical purposes, but it just doesn't reach me the way it seems to reach many of you. The reality is, nearly everyone in this forum is willing to make hard life choices toward a specific end, and that pretty much means nearly everyone in this forum is decidedly *not* lazy.

"Retirement," is a can of worms that isn't worth defining precisely.. we know what we mean here in these forums. :)

"Self-directed exploration," seems to be a great way to spend large swaths of time, and you only really have large swaths of time available to you if you're "retired." Same with "leisure," though that's a less precise term. Exploration could be considered leisure even if one is learning a ton while doing so.

Hopefully this was at least a little helpful. When living in the American context where busyness is often equated with self-worth, you often have to re-convince yourself over and over again, and I find having clear thoughts helps with that.

One thing I know for certain is that I've used up my scare-quotes ration for at least a fortnight.

[Worsted Skeins]

I like these thoughts. I'm gradually clarifying my own thoughts, and I think idleness is at the level of busyness, activity, etc.. that is, it just describes what you're doing at any given moment. As such, we all need some idleness just as we need some activity.

Laziness, on the other hand, has a moral component.. it describes the character of the person. I suspect some of these authors describe themselves as "lazy," when what they really mean is "willing to live in such a way that isn't merely busy." I'm fine if they use the term for rhetorical purposes, but it just doesn't reach me the way it seems to reach many of you. The reality is, nearly everyone in this forum is willing to make hard life choices toward a specific end, and that pretty much means nearly everyone in this forum is decidedly *not* lazy.

I have chosen not to work for pay for a number of years now.  My husband, on the other hand, continues to slog away in the corporate mines. 

People seem to need labels so they just don't know what to think of my situation.  Housewife seems old fashioned.  My son calls me a rabblerouser because of the political side to some of my community work.  But some people seem to think that because I do not work for pay I must sit around and eat bonbons all day. 

Oddly, so many people define themselves by their paid occupations that they just don't know what to do when the paycheck ends.  Thus, by extension, they view someone like me who chooses not to work for pay as someone who is lazy.  My days are filled now only with frugal activities that make this one income household possible (while allowing us to save a goodly percentage), I also enable us to enjoy the fruits of my husband's labors, to keep the busy-ness of the world at bay so that he can enjoy his nonworking hours. 

Are we busy?  Sometimes.  We prefer a quieter life.  I suspect that many, while calling me lazy, would also consider us dull. 

[Bakari]

Bertrand Russell wrote this article 80 years ago.

http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2012/06/in-praise-of-idleness.html

Not much has changed.

[mechanic baird]

I have chosen not to work for pay for a number of years now.  My husband, on the other hand, continues to slog away in the corporate mines. 

 My days are filled now only with frugal activities that make this one income household possible (while allowing us to save a goodly percentage), I also enable us to enjoy the fruits of my husband's labors, to keep the busy-ness of the world at bay so that he can enjoy his nonworking hours. 

Are we busy?  Sometimes.  We prefer a quieter life.  I suspect that many, while calling me lazy, would also consider us dull.

I have read somewhere a good home manager like you produces north of $40K of values to the family.. It's a very busy work to take care of a family... My friend's wife take care 3 kids and make hot meals for the family everyday while my friend pulls in $45K a year. They live very well and they are like the model family to me... And I think my friend who is the one that pulls in the paycheck doesn't work nearly as hard as his wife.. He sits in the office all day IM and chatting with me!!

[darkelenchus]

"Self-directed exploration," seems to be a great way to spend large swaths of time, and you only really have large swaths of time available to you if you're "retired." Same with "leisure," though that's a less precise term.

Classically understood, "leisure" is quite precise. It contrasts with labor, which is required to meet life's necessities. But it's more than "free time." It used to mean the time and effort one exerts in humanizing pursuits. Thus, Kepler's astronomical works Mozart's compositions, da Vinci's paintings & inventions, and Leibniz's works in metaphysics, mathematics, and logic would be the fruits of their leisurely activity.

Of course, we've mentally walled these sorts of pursuits off from the ordinary citizen by professionalizing them. Nowadays, unfortunately, our mental construct is such that we reserve the term "leisure" to describe "high end relaxation and recreation" like fox hunting, water polo, vacationing in the Hamptons, and sipping mojitos on the patio of an $8 million mansion; meanwhile hoi polloi are left with monster truck rallies and re-runs of According to Jim, as if their role in the universe is only to consume garbage and to toil away for a wage, producing nothing truly creative.

[Jamesqf]

Laziness, on the other hand, has a moral component.. it describes the character of the person. I suspect some of these authors describe themselves as "lazy," when what they really mean is "willing to live in such a way that isn't merely busy."

But there is a second component to laziness, which is efficiency.  I am lazy in that sense (indeed, you could say I've made a profession of it), because I expend brainpower on thinking of more efficient ways to do things. (Which sometimes is not to do them at all :-))  So if I could just figure out some way to limit the number of things I want to do, I would not be very busy at all.

[Nords]

So if I could just figure out some way to limit the number of things I want to do, I would not be very busy at all.

After a decade of retirement, the only limit I have is sore muscles and recovery time...

[arebelspy]

So if I could just figure out some way to limit the number of things I want to do, I would not be very busy at all.

After a decade of retirement, the only limit I have is sore muscles and recovery time...

...and surfing probably tires you out too!

[sol]

Of course, we've mentally walled these sorts of pursuits off from the ordinary citizen by professionalizing them. Nowadays, unfortunately, our mental construct is such that we reserve the term "leisure" to describe "high end relaxation and recreation" like fox hunting, water polo, vacationing in the Hamptons, and sipping mojitos on the patio of an $8 million mansion; meanwhile hoi polloi are left with monster truck rallies and re-runs of According to Jim, as if their role in the universe is only to consume garbage and to toil away for a wage, producing nothing truly creative.

This whole topic gets right to the heart of this movement, for me.  The very reason we pursue financial independence is to free us from the necessity of working to feed and house our families, and instead be free to pursue activities in support of our values or passions.

Darkelenchus has highlighted the apparent connection between an inability to stop working for a wage and the inability to contribute anything of value to society which so characterizes our modern consumer culture.  A more cynical man might suggest that this is the purpose of that culture, rather than a side effect of corporate profit seeking, and that the mechanisms for fostering wealth inequality thus contribute to our cultural destitution.

Dark, I'd be interested in hearing any further thoughts you might have on this subject.

[igthebold]

But there is a second component to laziness, which is efficiency.  I am lazy in that sense (indeed, you could say I've made a profession of it), because I expend brainpower on thinking of more efficient ways to do things. (Which sometimes is not to do them at all :-))  So if I could just figure out some way to limit the number of things I want to do, I would not be very busy at all.

Sure, and I think that's a good thing. Rather than call it a second component to laziness, I would call it a different sense of the word laziness. You're willing to do the work.. you're just not willing to do it *in*efficiently.

I guess when it comes down to it, there are *always* unpleasant things to do, and the telling thing is how we respond to that. Simply avoiding it seems like the laziness I'm talking about—the kind that is detrimental to one's life.

(edited to fix typo)

[igthebold]

This whole topic gets right to the heart of this movement, for me.  The very reason we pursue financial independence is to free us from the necessity of working to feed and house our families, and instead be free to pursue activities in support of our values or passions.

Not sure if you just came up with this, but that is probably the best, most concise, description of The Whole Point. Covers so many bases. Thanks.

Darkelenchus has highlighted the apparent connection between an inability to stop working for a wage and the inability to contribute anything of value to society which so characterizes our modern consumer culture.  A more cynical man might suggest that this is the purpose of that culture, rather than a side effect of corporate profit seeking, and that the mechanisms for fostering wealth inequality thus contribute to our cultural destitution.

I read through the Bertrand Russell essay yesterday. I actually disagree with a large portion of his premises and conclusions, but he does a good service in highlighting the stupidity of tying the value of someone's life to the amount of mere activity they do, and in pointing out the disparity between what the British Idle Rich say is virtuous (60-hour work weeks) and what they do (0-hour work weeks).

What he doesn't bring out so much is what you just said, that so many people seem to think they're doing something worth doing if they're merely filling their time with activity. In fact, they're likely doing the opposite.. that is, they are so filling up their time that they have no room for anything of actual value.

[darkelenchus]

Of course, we've mentally walled these sorts of pursuits off from the ordinary citizen by professionalizing them. Nowadays, unfortunately, our mental construct is such that we reserve the term "leisure" to describe "high end relaxation and recreation" like fox hunting, water polo, vacationing in the Hamptons, and sipping mojitos on the patio of an $8 million mansion; meanwhile hoi polloi are left with monster truck rallies and re-runs of According to Jim, as if their role in the universe is only to consume garbage and to toil away for a wage, producing nothing truly creative.

Darkelenchus has highlighted the apparent connection between an inability to stop working for a wage and the inability to contribute anything of value to society which so characterizes our modern consumer culture.  A more cynical man might suggest that this is the purpose of that culture, rather than a side effect of corporate profit seeking, and that the mechanisms for fostering wealth inequality thus contribute to our cultural destitution.

Dark, I'd be interested in hearing any further thoughts you might have on this subject.

Sure. At the beginning of the ERE book, Jacob offers a wonderful critique of modern consumer society by relating it to the Allegory of the Cave. The idea is that, whether intentional or not, business mechanisms have solidified labor and consumption as the fundamental ideals of our worldview, which reinforce the behavior needed for those mechanisms to survive and grow; but if we allow the scales to fall from our eyes, we'd be able to see that this actually robs us of our lives and conflicts with what we truly value. I think there's a lot of insight in this, especially as a liberation story. However, I think Nietzsche's Last Man probably better depicts what ordinarily happens when most people peak past the consumerist worldview: it scares the shit out of them, so they retreat back into consumerism.

Rather than thinking of labor and consumption as ideals that have been mistakenly treated as stand-ins for our "true values" while under the spell of an illusion, they're more like convenient fall-backs to the reality that there are no ready-made values there for the taking, and that, therefore, cultivation of values will require enduring much struggle, hardship, and uncertainty. Consumerist ideals are "purposeless purposes," a way to ignore the incredible difficulty involved in harvesting one's life energy to create something meaningful. From this vantage point, one could be "productive" in feeding the consumerist machine via extraordinary amounts of labor, but still be "lazy" or "idle" when it comes to etching out a meaningful life.

I've actually got a blog post coming down the pipeline that explores this further, called "What is the American Dream?" That's not to say I'm not up for discussing this further in the meantime. :-)

[mechanic baird]

Rather than thinking of labor and consumption as ideals that have been mistakenly treated as stand-ins for our "true values" while under the spell of an illusion, they're more like convenient fall-backs to the reality that there are no ready-made values there for the taking, and that, therefore, cultivation of values will require enduring much struggle, hardship, and uncertainty. Consumerist ideals are "purposeless purposes," a way to ignore the incredible difficulty involved in harvesting one's life energy to create something meaningful. From this vantage point, one could be "productive" in feeding the consumerist machine via extraordinary amounts of labor, but still be "lazy" or "idle" when it comes to etching out a meaningful life.

Can't agree with you more on this.. Right on!
So many people are wasting so much time and energy laboring for pointless consumption... If only if they could spend this energy else where to seek for true meaningful life (i.e. spend more time with your kids and elder parents you love)...

Luckily, majority of the folks on this forum have been able to see through it and prepare for the ultimate freedom.. Good for us!

[darkelenchus]

Luckily, majority of the folks on this forum have been able to see through it and prepare for the ultimate freedom.. Good for us!

That's precisely why I love this forum community so much!

[Bullseye]

Another article, sort of a follow up;


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/why-only-yuppies-feel-busy-an-economic-theory/259534/

[Jamesqf]

If only if they could spend this energy else where to seek for true meaningful life (i.e. spend more time with your kids and elder parents you love)...

Of course there are several unspoken assumptions in there: that you have or want kids, that you love your parents, that either of those would be interested in spending more time with you instead of hanging out with friends their own age...

Now as it happens, I actually like working.  I like having projects to do, goals that I don't have to come up with myself, and clients who'll keep pushing me to meet those goals.  (Given my butterfly mind, when left to my own devices I'll have dozens, if not hundreds, of interesting projects in various states of (non)completion.)  I appreciate the fact that my work contributes something to the world, and that people think enough of it to pay me reasonably well for it. 

So for me, work is one of the things which add meaning to life, though of course I don't want to overdo it, and Mustachianism helps ensure that I don't have to, 

[Xtal]

I'm so glad this topic is finally gaining more ground in the public discourse.

Worker productivity has been increasing for decades.  We should all have 20-hour workweeks by now, IMO.  Instead, we have 60-hour workweeks for some, and zero-hour workweeks for others.  This is neither fair nor healthy.

I've long fantasized about shorter workweeks for U.S. workers, but it doesn't seem likely given the current political and cultural climate.  The last time I broached the subject on Facebook, one of my "friends" took umbrage at the thought of his hours being "taken away" and given to somebody "undeserving," although to my mind, the only thing that separates him or me from the "undeserving" is luck.  There are people who worked very hard to get advanced degrees who are currently un- or under-employed.

I'm so excited about Mustachianism because it allows me to practice my beliefs.  I may not be able to go down to a 20-hour workweek now, but if I save diligently and invest wisely, I can exit the workforce early!  This will both afford me the freedom to live my life in the way I see fit, and it will open up a space in the workforce for somebody else!

I don't plan to spend my "leisure" doing nothing.  I intend to read, knit, play viola in my community orchestra, take up permaculture gardening, volunteer, and maybe get involved in local politics (like at the neighborhood and city level).  I dare anyone to say these are not worthwhile activities.  I'm already filling my precious spare hours with some of these things; I look forward to the day when I can spend most of my time in productive leisure.

[Bakari]

I am SO happy to finally hear someone else say that.

I tried making a federal petition for overtime to kick in earlier to reduce unemployment once, but I couldn't generate enough signatures.
http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2011/10/dramatically-reduce-unemployment-by.html

Perhaps with the support of the money mustaches, we could get to the signature threshold in time.  I am quiet sure it wouldn't go anywhere, but at least it would put the thought into the minds of people who had the power to bring it up on a national level (note: that petition has expired, so don't bother trying to sign it. Maybe I'll start a new one some time...)

[Jamesqf]

Worker productivity has been increasing for decades.  We should all have 20-hour workweeks by now, IMO.  Instead, we have 60-hour workweeks for some, and zero-hour workweeks for others.  This is neither fair nor healthy.

Except for the small matter of skill.  A good number of those who are unemployed (over the long term, not just in the current slump) are those who've never bothered to acquire skills that people are willing to pay for.

How many of those unemployed advanced-degree holders have degrees in things like engineering, and how many have them in English lit or one of the other "Do you want fries with that?" fields.

[Gerard]

How many of those unemployed advanced-degree holders have degrees in things like engineering, and how many have them in English lit or one of the other "Do you want fries with that?" fields.

I'm hoping you see the irony of taking this stance in a thread about producing value rather than "product"...

[Bakari]

Except for the small matter of skill.  A good number of those who are unemployed (over the long term, not just in the current slump) are those who've never bothered to acquire skills that people are willing to pay for.

How many of those unemployed advanced-degree holders have degrees in things like engineering, and how many have them in English lit or one of the other "Do you want fries with that?" fields.

no "except".  Unskilled worker work 40-60 hour weeks too.  We need fewer unskilled work hours today than in the past for the exact same 3 reasons we need fewer skilled workers: new technology, outsourcing, and corporate consolidation.  Especially technology.  One cashier can watch over 4 self-check-out lines.  Half of toll takers are replaced with RFID car tags.  Factory workers are replaced with robots.  Family farms are replaced with giant fields attended with romba style automated tractors.  There have always been more unskilled workers in the labor market than skilled, but there has not always been equally high unemployment.

Getting more skill should translate to more pay, but that is irrelevant to the question of how available labor hours are to be distributed in a society.

[Jamesqf]

How many of those unemployed advanced-degree holders have degrees in things like engineering, and how many have them in English lit or one of the other "Do you want fries with that?" fields.

I'm hoping you see the irony of taking this stance in a thread about producing value rather than "product"...

No, I'm afraid I don't.  Feel free to explain.

[Jamesqf]

no "except".  Unskilled worker work 40-60 hour weeks too.  We need fewer unskilled work hours today than in the past for the exact same 3 reasons we need fewer skilled workers: new technology, outsourcing, and corporate consolidation.

Not what the numbers say.  Consider that the quota on H1-B visas (used for skilled foreign workers) was filled in June this year.

[Bakari]

no "except".  Unskilled worker work 40-60 hour weeks too.  We need fewer unskilled work hours today than in the past for the exact same 3 reasons we need fewer skilled workers: new technology, outsourcing, and corporate consolidation.

Not what the numbers say.  Consider that the quota on H1-B visas (used for skilled foreign workers) was filled in June this year.

I may be misunderstanding you, it seems like you are saying we have a deficit of skilled labor.  Maybe.  I'm not arguing that.  I'm saying unskilled positions exist, and our economic system is setup to encourage employers to hire a small number of people for a large number of hours rather than a large number of people for a small number of hours, and the result is higher unemployment.  I don't think the solution is for all unskilled workers to just "get smarter" and take the jobs that H1-B visa holders take.

[Jamesqf]

[I'm saying unskilled positions exist, and our economic system is setup to encourage employers to hire a small number of people for a large number of hours rather than a large number of people for a small number of hours, and the result is higher unemployment.

True, because most benefits (cost of hiring, health insurance, etc) are fixed costs per person, so it makes financial sense to spread that cost ovr as many working hours as possible.

But from the perspective of someone seeking employment, it makes sense to know the demand for particular skills, and that there's not much real-world demand for e.g. the skill at literary criticism that you spent four years acquiring.

[sol]

I think the key to this recent debate is in how you define value.

Some of you have suggested that only engineers have value, because they make products that people want to buy.  This is a valid view, endorsed by most economists who measure value in terms of dollars.

Others of you have suggested that value is unrelated to cost, that a symphony or a novel contributes more to human society than spending that production costs on making more widgets.  This is also a valid view, and one that MMM subtly supports with this whole philosophy of living more by spending less.

[Nords]

I'm saying unskilled positions exist, and our economic system is setup to encourage employers to hire a small number of people for a large number of hours rather than a large number of people for a small number of hours, and the result is higher unemployment. 

I think many born-and-raised-in-America Americans are unwilling to put in the physical labor required of many unskilled positions.

And I'm basing that assessment from Oahu, not from the southern Mainland states.

[Jamesqf]

Others of you have suggested that value is unrelated to cost, that a symphony or a novel contributes more to human society than spending that production costs on making more widgets.

I think you misunderstood my comment about the "Do you want fries with that?" degrees.  It's not that I don't think a novel has value, but that few if any graduates from English Lit programs are capable of writing novels that have value. 

On the other hand, there are a good many engineers & scientists who have written readable novels and nonfiction works.

[Nords]

It's not that I don't think a novel has value, but that few if any graduates from English Lit programs are capable of writing novels that have value. 
On the other hand, there are a good many engineers & scientists who have written readable novels and nonfiction works.

I guess we'd have to read a credible study on NYT bestsellers vs author's degrees.

I'm pretty sure that Joe Haldemann, Stephen King, and Jim Butcher all have liberal arts degrees-- and maybe the first two got theirs in English or creative writing or something close.  I don't remember the details.

Of course Robert Heinlein got his degree in "naval science" because that particular school only awarded one degree...

[darkelenchus]

Others of you have suggested that value is unrelated to cost, that a symphony or a novel contributes more to human society than spending that production costs on making more widgets.

I think you misunderstood my comment about the "Do you want fries with that?" degrees.  It's not that I don't think a novel has value, but that few if any graduates from English Lit programs are capable of writing novels that have value. 

This totally misses the point of sol's remark. So what if they don't produce a novel that "has value" to popular culture, to a publishing firm, to a niche community hankering to throw dollars at the next shiny thing catered to them? What we're discussing here is a different sense of value altogether, that isn't so easily quantifiable.

On the other hand, given our current milieu, there's something to be said about focusing on adding "productive" or "economic" value first, and then pursuing a degree in the liberal arts.

[Nords]

This totally misses the point of sol's remark. So what if they don't produce a novel that "has value" to popular culture, to a publishing firm, to a niche community hankering to throw dollars at the next shiny thing catered to them? What we're discussing here is a different sense of value altogether, that isn't so easily quantifiable.
On the other hand, given our current milieu, there's something to be said about focusing on adding "productive" or "economic" value first, and then pursuing a degree in the liberal arts.

Bob Clyatt wanted to pursue an art degree in college, but his father "discouraged" that in favor of business skills.

20+ years later, after Bob ER'd, he was able to pursue his first love:  http://www.clyattsculpture.com/Figurative_sculpture.html

Well, first he wrote a book:  http://www.workless-livemore.com/

[darkelenchus]

This totally misses the point of sol's remark. So what if they don't produce a novel that "has value" to popular culture, to a publishing firm, to a niche community hankering to throw dollars at the next shiny thing catered to them? What we're discussing here is a different sense of value altogether, that isn't so easily quantifiable.
On the other hand, given our current milieu, there's something to be said about focusing on adding "productive" or "economic" value first, and then pursuing a degree in the liberal arts.

Bob Clyatt wanted to pursue an art degree in college, but his father "discouraged" that in favor of business skills.

20+ years later, after Bob ER'd, he was able to pursue his first love:  http://www.clyattsculpture.com/Figurative_sculpture.html

Well, first he wrote a book:  http://www.workless-livemore.com/

Those sculptures are pretty awesome.

[Nords]

Those sculptures are pretty awesome.

The pricing and the shipping are killers, though.

Bob says he also enjoys the fringe benefits of choosing to sculpt images of naked women instead of abstracts or pottery...

[Jamesqf]

On the other hand, given our current milieu, there's something to be said about focusing on adding "productive" or "economic" value first, and then pursuing a degree in the liberal arts.

Yes.  If someone wants to do that sort of thing on their own, fine with me.  I just get tired of seeing my money going to support those who produce the sort of output that's typical of liberal arts graduates.

[mm1970]

[quote author=Bakari link=topic=1143.msg17664#msg17664 date

I may be misunderstanding you, it seems like you are saying we have a deficit of skilled labor.  Maybe.  I'm not arguing that.  I'm saying unskilled positions exist, and our economic system is setup to encourage employers to hire a small number of people for a large number of hours rather than a large number of people for a small number of hours, and the result is higher unemployment.  I don't think the solution is for all unskilled workers to just "get smarter" and take the jobs that H1-B visa holders take.
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I don't know. Maybe things have changed a lot, but when I was a kid,that was the problem.  Grocery stores and other places where they hired unskilled labor preferred to keep people below the threshold for benefits. Now of course with mustachianism, we would assume that people would rather work fewer hours. My experience is the opposite. Most people I know need the full time job for the bennies, if not the money.