Author Topic: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly  (Read 25797 times)

Gin1984

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http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level. Popular thought has been that that’s because women simply don’t ask for more money. Makes sense, right? You have to ask for something in order to receive it.

But there’s something about that line of thinking that has never sat well with me.

I asked and did not receive

During college, I worked for almost four years part-time for a hair product distributor. My first job there was answering the phones, but due to my Mac knowledge and Adobe Illustrator skills, I quickly moved from the front desk to working side-by-side with the CEO on marketing projects and event planning.

Upon graduation, my boss scheduled a meeting so we could to talk about my switch to being a full-time, salaried employee. Being no dummy, I figured this would include salary negotiation. So I did some serious homework to prepare. I read countless articles on how to negotiate your salary. I researched the salaries for similar positions in my city. I prepared a one-page document with this information to use during the meeting, just in case I got nervous and forgot the numbers.

The day of the meeting, my boss didn’t come into the office. She’d decided to work from home that day. The other boss, her husband, fit me in right before he left for the day (which was right after lunch). So we met in his office. I think I’d read somewhere that you shouldn’t throw out a number first, but he insisted. So I said that based on the average salary for the position, my previous experience, etc., I’m asking for $35,000 per year. It was $5,000 more than they offer most new hires. However, I had four years of experience already, and that meant zero training time and zero risk — they already knew I was a good fit and a great employee. Looking back on it, I should have asked for more.

But it wouldn’t have changed the outcome. My supporting evidence fell on deaf ears. I got what any new hire would get.

I’m not saying I did everything right during my “negotiation.” I’m sure there was a lot I could’ve done better. But I also believe 100 percent that in this particular situation, he had a set figure and that was going to be that.

Do women really negotiate less?

Despite popular thought, it turns out that women are asking. A study that came out late last year found no significant difference between men and women when it comes to negotiating for a higher level position or greater compensation during the hiring process.

The Catalyst’s report, The Myth of the Ideal Worker: Does Doing All the Right Things Really Get Women Ahead? shows some interesting findings:

    47 percent of women and 52 percent of men said that they countered by asking for a higher salary.

    14 percent of women and 15 percent of men reported that they countered by asking for a higher-level position.

The study did find that there was a big gender difference depending on how many post-MBA jobs someone has: A full 50 percent of men countered their first post-MBA offer by asking for a higher salary, compared to only 31 percent of women.

But after that first post-MBA job, women start negotiating just as frequently as men. Among men and women who had moved on from their first job, 63 percent of women negotiated for increased compensation, compared to 54 percent of men.

So, women are asking. But according to other research, that could hurt them too.

It can hurt to ask

If a woman negotiates her starting salary, the employer might hold it against her. According to a 2006 study, when a woman negotiates her salary, both men and women are less likely to want to work with or hire her. The negative effect was more than 5.5 times greater for women who negotiated than for men.

If all of this research is correct, it’s a Catch-22. If you don’t negotiate, you’re penalized with a smaller salary. If you do negotiate, you’re less likely to be hired or your boss won’t want to work with you as much (which can affect future raises).

Women have to seek recognition more than men do

I can’t end on a damned-if-you-do note, so let’s talk about the best course of action. First, I’d never tell someone not to negotiate their salary, male or female. I think we all can agree about that.

Second, for women, the Catalyst study found that career advancement strategies that work for men don’t necessarily work for women. The most powerful strategies for women are making achievements known and gaining access to powerful others.

Making achievements known means:

    Ensuring your manager is aware of your accomplishments.

    Seeking credit for work done.

    Requesting additional performance feedback.

    Asking to be considered for a promotion when you feel it’s deserved.

Gaining access to powerful others means:

    Identifying the most influential people in the company.

    Seeking introductions to people in the company who can influence your career.

    Building a network of contacts with important people in the company.

    Learning how things “really work” inside the company.

    Pushing to be involved with high-profile projects.

It’s worth noting that only “making achievements known” was shown to affect compensation growth. In addition, the study found that changing jobs can negatively impact women’s compensation growth, whereas with men, it positively affects compensation growth.


So what do people think of this?

smalllife

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 12:15:18 PM »
From an anecdotal stand point, it sounds a lot like reality to me.

ace1224

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 12:31:18 PM »
negotiating sounds odd to me in general.  i think that is because in my company your position dictates your pay no matter what.  no matter how much school/experience/ accomplishments you have. 
i'm a pay grade 7.  i make what all pay grade 7s in my company make (in north america, globally i know its different)  i have a masters and 3 more years experience than my co worker, we make the same.  her turnaround time is faster, we make the same. 
i don't really understand why someone would get paid more to do the same job just because they've been doing it longer.  getting promoted because you're better i get, but for two people with the same job description i would think you'd get paid the same.
that's why we don't have performance reviews either i guess. 

CommonCents

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 12:47:08 PM »
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level.

I stopped at the first sentance.  Where is this actually true in the US/Canada?

•The pay gap hasn’t budged in a decade.
In 2012, as in 2002, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 77 percent of what men were paid.
•Women in every state experience the pay gap, but some states are worse than others.
The best place in the United States for pay equity is Washington, D.C., where women were paid 90 percent of what men were paid in 2012. At the other end of the spectrum is Wyoming, the worst state in the country for pay equity, where women were paid just 64 percent of what men were paid.
•Women face a pay gap in nearly every occupation.
From elementary and middle school teachers to computer programmers, women are paid less than men in female-dominated, gender-balanced, and male-dominated occupations.
•The pay gap also exists among women without children.
AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid.

Source: http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
Emphasis added

Elaine

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 01:08:56 PM »
The whole idea that women make less because we just don't ask for it is totally absurd. Women make less because when middle class women began working outside the home they usually had less education and so were initially in lower paying positions (Secretary, maid, etc.) It was assumed that most of these (mostly young) women would get married and leave their jobs. As women started getting degrees, certain fields were opened up to them more than others (like nursing and teaching). At the same time, that this happened, these new "female" heavy fields suddenly began to lower pay (they were higher paying fields when men were the primary workers). This was partially because it was assumed, again, that these women mostly had husbands, and that they were not the primary earners in their families. Also because of sexism, as in, why pay a woman as much as a man. That's why, to this day, certain fields are so female heavy and underpaid. In terms of within field inequality, I think it has just become institutionalized from there on out. And I agree that women probably don't negotiate as much, but negotiation doesn't happen in a vacuum. Women who strongly voice opinions, and don't readily roll over are still largely considered bitches. While guys who do the same are just go-getters or leaders.

Jamesqf

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 01:48:32 PM »
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level.

I stopped at the first sentance.  Where is this actually true in the US/Canada?

•The pay gap hasn’t budged in a decade.
In 2012, as in 2002, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 77 percent of what men were paid.

And those statistics always come up saying that, because they never actually measure the same jobs.

As for negotiation, I've never really negotiated pay either.  It's always been a 'take it or leave it' situation, where sometimes my response is to leave it.

CommonCents

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 02:06:02 PM »
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level.

I stopped at the first sentance.  Where is this actually true in the US/Canada?

•The pay gap hasn’t budged in a decade.
In 2012, as in 2002, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 77 percent of what men were paid.

And those statistics always come up saying that, because they never actually measure the same jobs.

As for negotiation, I've never really negotiated pay either.  It's always been a 'take it or leave it' situation, where sometimes my response is to leave it.

That's why I also copied this stat:

•Women face a pay gap in nearly every occupation.
From elementary and middle school teachers to computer programmers, women are paid less than men in female-dominated, gender-balanced, and male-dominated occupations.

But here you go, a colorful chart by field (of note, construction does not have a gap):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

The gap is reduced when  you controll a number of factors, but still, unfortunately not reduced: "The raw wage gap data shows that a woman would earn roughly 73.7% to 77% of what a man would earn over their lifetime. However, when controllable variables are accounted for, such as job position, total hours worked, number of children, and the frequency at which unpaid leave is taken, in addition to other factors, The U.S. Department of Labor found in 2008 that the gap can be brought down from 23% to between 4.8% and 7.1%.[20]"

Some studies have also shown that direct evidence of discrimination.

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 02:21:28 PM »
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level.

I stopped at the first sentance.  Where is this actually true in the US/Canada?

•The pay gap hasn’t budged in a decade.
In 2012, as in 2002, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 77 percent of what men were paid.

And those statistics always come up saying that, because they never actually measure the same jobs.

As for negotiation, I've never really negotiated pay either.  It's always been a 'take it or leave it' situation, where sometimes my response is to leave it.
That is untrue.

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 02:31:20 PM »
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level.

I stopped at the first sentance.  Where is this actually true in the US/Canada?

•The pay gap hasn’t budged in a decade.
In 2012, as in 2002, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 77 percent of what men were paid.
•Women in every state experience the pay gap, but some states are worse than others.
The best place in the United States for pay equity is Washington, D.C., where women were paid 90 percent of what men were paid in 2012. At the other end of the spectrum is Wyoming, the worst state in the country for pay equity, where women were paid just 64 percent of what men were paid.
•Women face a pay gap in nearly every occupation.
From elementary and middle school teachers to computer programmers, women are paid less than men in female-dominated, gender-balanced, and male-dominated occupations.
•The pay gap also exists among women without children.
AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid.

Source: http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
Emphasis added

If all the politics were stripped away for a moment, ask yourself:  If female employees actually did cost 77% of male employees, why would anyone hire a male?
Even when it was legal for that to happen, men were still hired.  If you look at history and research, it does happen, even if it makes no sense.

Babymoustache

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2014, 01:33:22 PM »
Wow gin, that is an incredibly thought provoking article. 

As a women, I moved up the career ladder fairly quickly by my achievements. I broke through a bit of a glass ceiling in my industry. When I graduated it was 50/50 male/female and for the first 5 years or so that was reflected in the hire rates. What is interesting is that at leadership level that statistic suddenly changes and only 3 percent of leaders are women. I had no idea of this as I moved up the ranks and just assumed it was normal to have a women in leadership which probably helped me. I only found out later the ratio of 3% f/m.

However, I later found out that I wasn't being paid the same as other males in the industry. This slowly corrected itself as my achievements got me more pay rises etc. but I actually never negotiated for them. Everything was based on my employer recognising and giving them to me, I never once asked for them.  It was only in my most recent contract for a I decided to get this negotiation thing down and did negotiate to get a better pay, I later found out I was being paid more than they did for anyone at my level.

However, I often look back and wonder if there was a possibility of it effecting me negatively. I know technically if you start on a lower wage compared to someone else at a similar position in a company, that pay discrepancy actually stays with you throughout your time there (even as you get promoted etc) this is true for both women and men. In this latest job, the company was global, so there were other people in similar positions to myself, which is why I put an emphasis on negotiation. But a part of me couldn't help but feel it worked both for and against me, yes, I got a better pay, but I often felt like it then became a bigger factor in their thinking of me in day to day work. In other jobs everything I did was based on performance, but here I'd managed the first step from negotiation.  That was great but at times I almost felt a negative vibe about it. A little bit like what the article describes about people's perception of women who negotiate.

Now, I have absolutely no facts around this, only intuition and feelings to go by, and I am transparent in saying I realise this could simply be due to my own issues and preconceptions around negotiation. But a wise mentor of mine once said to me, 'in these types of things, where there's smoke there's fire'. Ie trust your senses.

I'd really be interested to learn more I.e do why do people feel this way with women who negotiate? Are they threatened? Or, is it that they're just not used to women in our culture behaving like this? What could change these perceptions to a more positive outlook?

A very fascinating subject and interested on your further thoughts on it too gin.


clarkfan1979

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2014, 06:16:28 PM »
Your biggest negotiation tool is the ability to leave. If you didn't get the number you wanted first time, then you should ask for it again 6-12 months after taking the position. If the number truly represents and average you should have no problem getting that number from a competitive company. Once you tell them you are leaving your boss might give you more than what you were originally asking for.

mm1970

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 02:55:31 PM »
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level.

I stopped at the first sentance.  Where is this actually true in the US/Canada?
Everywhere I've ever worked.

And this includes when adjusted for years of experience, job title, and accomplishments.
(I'm an engineer.)

grantmeaname

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 07:21:31 PM »
Women always make more than men. At my first job, the highest paid manager, the highest paid cook, and the highest paid server were all women.

If we just throw anecdotes at each other all day nobody is going to be convinced of anything, nobody will have proven anything, and the discussion will have gotten nowhere. The original post was an anecdote unsupported by evidence, and every one of us could stop in and say either "that anecdote conforms with my experience" or "that anecdote does not conform with my experience". Well? So what?

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 07:37:56 PM »
Women always make more than men. At my first job, the highest paid manager, the highest paid cook, and the highest paid server were all women.

If we just throw anecdotes at each other all day nobody is going to be convinced of anything, nobody will have proven anything, and the discussion will have gotten nowhere. The original post was an anecdote unsupported by evidence, and every one of us could stop in and say either "that anecdote conforms with my experience" or "that anecdote does not conform with my experience". Well? So what?
Yes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.  The actual research agrees that overall, even when accounting for experience/training/hours, men get paid more then women. 

randymarsh

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 08:09:49 PM »
The pay gap may still exist, but it is exaggerated.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html

The gap that actually exists doesn't appear to be coming from outright discrimination either, but occupation choice. Maybe sexism is driving that, in the sense that we push boys towards higher paying college majors and careers. But that's a different problem IMO than hiring managers interviewing women and offering 10% less.


Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2014, 06:14:25 AM »
The pay gap may still exist, but it is exaggerated.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html

The gap that actually exists doesn't appear to be coming from outright discrimination either, but occupation choice. Maybe sexism is driving that, in the sense that we push boys towards higher paying college majors and careers. But that's a different problem IMO than hiring managers interviewing women and offering 10% less.
I have read the actual journal articles, and yes even within the same fields men get paid more than women.  And, for my own field, that was part of why names were removed from grant application because it was shown that when the grant had a male name, it was more likely to be funded then a female name. 
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/193.short
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 06:18:48 AM by Gin1984 »

grantmeaname

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2014, 06:31:51 AM »
Yes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.
That's my entire point. Hence me saying "anecdotes aren't proving anything". I think that either the thread should turn directions to "this part of the post resonated with me" or "this part of the post is useful", or we can get all data-nerd in here and actually dissect studies. But the way I see it, the current go-around of anecdote versus anecdote does no good.

Quote
The actual research agrees that overall, even when accounting for experience/training/hours, men get paid more then women.
I disagree. Depending on the data set the analysis is run on and which factors are controlled for or omitted, different reasonable scientists come to different conclusions. You can't just use your vague, generalized knowledge of a body of research as a club to beat down discussion you disagree with in yet another thread. Either post the research or quit trying to silence people with broad, false generalizations.

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2014, 07:34:34 AM »
Yes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.
That's my entire point. Hence me saying "anecdotes aren't proving anything". I think that either the thread should turn directions to "this part of the post resonated with me" or "this part of the post is useful", or we can get all data-nerd in here and actually dissect studies. But the way I see it, the current go-around of anecdote versus anecdote does no good.

Quote
The actual research agrees that overall, even when accounting for experience/training/hours, men get paid more then women.
I disagree. Depending on the data set the analysis is run on and which factors are controlled for or omitted, different reasonable scientists come to different conclusions. You can't just use your vague, generalized knowledge of a body of research as a club to beat down discussion you disagree with in yet another thread. Either post the research or quit trying to silence people with broad, false generalizations.
I posted one article already.  I am ok with adding more, if people want.  But, people can't just post news articles as evidence like they would journal articles because very often news articles are not accurately portraying journal articles.  If you can post any journal article that disagrees, I'd love to read it but from my experience (which is a research based background), I have not come across any such article.  You are saying my statements are generalization and false, yet have not given any evidence for that.

randymarsh

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2014, 09:40:33 AM »
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/193.short

That study specifically suggests that discrimination is not the main cause of the pay gap.

Quote
Given that rapid changes in family status probably did not drive our findings, one hypothesis is that women face gender discrimination in the physician labor market in spite of the evolving role of women in the physician workforce.12,13,15 Although this hypothesis cannot be proved or disproved based on our data, it would be difficult to believe that discrimination, after a period of quiescence, has actually been on the rise in recent years. Moreover, our results indicate a trend toward diverging salaries not only in the traditionally male-dominated subspecialty fields, which experienced an influx of women in our sample, but also in primary care fields.

It continues:

Quote
Given that the trend toward diverging salaries appears to affect female physicians regardless of specialty, an alternative explanation focuses on the unobserved aspects of jobs taken by women. It is possible that the continued influx of women into medicine has reached a tipping point, and physician practices may now be offering greater flexibility and family-friendly attributes that are more appealing to female practitioners but that come at the price of commensurately lower pay.

Such an explanation not only is consistent with the pattern observed in the data, but it also suggests that the continued integration of women into the physician workforce is reshaping the practice and business of medicine in ways that need to be measured by variables that are more subtle and comprehensive than salary. If true, it also implies that female physicians respond to nonmonetary elements in a given job offer and are willing to accept lower salaries in return for jobs that better reflect their broader employment preferences.

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2014, 12:47:25 PM »
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/193.short

That study specifically suggests that discrimination is not the main cause of the pay gap.

Quote
Given that rapid changes in family status probably did not drive our findings, one hypothesis is that women face gender discrimination in the physician labor market in spite of the evolving role of women in the physician workforce.12,13,15 Although this hypothesis cannot be proved or disproved based on our data, it would be difficult to believe that discrimination, after a period of quiescence, has actually been on the rise in recent years. Moreover, our results indicate a trend toward diverging salaries not only in the traditionally male-dominated subspecialty fields, which experienced an influx of women in our sample, but also in primary care fields.

It continues:

Quote
Given that the trend toward diverging salaries appears to affect female physicians regardless of specialty, an alternative explanation focuses on the unobserved aspects of jobs taken by women. It is possible that the continued influx of women into medicine has reached a tipping point, and physician practices may now be offering greater flexibility and family-friendly attributes that are more appealing to female practitioners but that come at the price of commensurately lower pay.

Such an explanation not only is consistent with the pattern observed in the data, but it also suggests that the continued integration of women into the physician workforce is reshaping the practice and business of medicine in ways that need to be measured by variables that are more subtle and comprehensive than salary. If true, it also implies that female physicians respond to nonmonetary elements in a given job offer and are willing to accept lower salaries in return for jobs that better reflect their broader employment preferences.
You pulled from the discussion, not the actual data.  All that was said in the discussion is opinion.  And all it was saying is the author does not think discrimination has gotten worse, therefore it can't be the cause for the increase wage gap among physicians working more than 40 hours. Let us just stick with the data, shall we?  That data shows a statistically significant wage gap between the genders for physicians working over 40 hours, with every variable they could account for. 
But if you don't want to do that, read their conclusion:

Anthony Lo Sasso, Michael Richards, Chiu-Fang Chou, and Susan Gerber explore a growing gender gap in physicians’ starting salaries. They find that in New York State, where more residents are trained than in any other state, women leaving residency training programs earn considerably less than their male counterparts—and that the gap isn’t explained by such factors as choice of specialties.

These authors brought different perspectives and expertise to the research, lead author Lo Sasso says. Their collaboration started at the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC). Lo Sasso, a professor and senior research scientist in the UIC School of Public Health, supervised Chou’s doctoral research at the school, and they soon began to collaborate on other work. Richards, then a medical student at UIC, joined them. Gerber, Lo Sasso’s wife and frequent collaborator, was brought into this project for her expertise and her perspective as a female physician.

The authors were surprised by the striking difference in starting salaries that their research found between male and female physicians. They accounted for every factor that might explain this finding, given previous research that found no difference in salary between sexes, but this made no difference. “We honestly tried everything we could to make it go away, but it wouldn’t,” Lo Sasso says. The authors hope that their research will highlight the uncertainty and unpredictability inherent in dynamic physician labor markets—a factor that will play into health reform, as demand grows for primary care providers and physicians in general.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 12:53:17 PM by Gin1984 »

Jamesqf

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2014, 10:58:02 PM »
Yes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.  The actual research agrees that overall, even when accounting for experience/training/hours, men get paid more then women.

But if you take a close look at those studies, you will likely find something that makes them not a true 1:1 comparison.  At least it's been so in the random selection I've looked at.  That's generally what happens when people do studies on something where they have an agenda.

Then you have men who simply don't negotiate - as I said above, I'm one of them.  Why do we not end up earning the (presumably lower) same amount as non-negotiating women?

MDM

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2014, 11:45:43 PM »
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/03/11/money-mythbuster-women-dont-negotiate/#comments
n average, women earn less than men for the same job and performance level.

I stopped at the first sentance.  Where is this actually true in the US/Canada?
Everywhere I've ever worked.

And this includes when adjusted for years of experience, job title, and accomplishments.
(I'm an engineer.)
Nowhere I've ever worked.

But that's limited to large companies, where all new hires get the same starting pay (based on field of study and level of degree).  After that, raises are based on performance.  And yes, performance is subjective so, as with anything subjective, the possibility of discrimination exists.  To counter that, the HR department keeps statistics - probably from a CYA perspective as much as anything, but the result is the same - so no "protected cohort" does statistically worse.
(I'm an engineer.)

Note: this is not to be taken as sarcastic toward mm1970.  I have no reason to disbelieve that post.  The point is that we all see things through the lens of our own experience, and it's not surprising that people with different experiences see things differently.

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2014, 12:43:45 AM »
Yes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.  The actual research agrees that overall, even when accounting for experience/training/hours, men get paid more then women.

But if you take a close look at those studies, you will likely find something that makes them not a true 1:1 comparison.  At least it's been so in the random selection I've looked at.  That's generally what happens when people do studies on something where they have an agenda.

Then you have men who simply don't negotiate - as I said above, I'm one of them.  Why do we not end up earning the (presumably lower) same amount as non-negotiating women?

Seriously?  Can you not see what a sexist world we live in? The answer is, a long history of culturally ingrained sexism that, despite changing, is nowhere near over.  Females continue to be second-class citizens, if not by law (in some countries) then by culture.  Even the article being quoted had to set out to counter the original answer for the salary gap-- that the women just weren't asking for the money.  Of course it would have been accepted for years that the reason for the disparity was due to a failure the women.  Blame always goes to the victims first; that's standard.  Substitute any other disenfranchised group into the same scenario and maybe you'll see it.

randymarsh

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2014, 07:11:03 AM »
Even the article being quoted had to set out to counter the original answer for the salary gap-- that the women just weren't asking for the money. Of course it would have been accepted for years that the reason for the disparity was due to a failure the women.  Blame always goes to the victims first; that's standard.  Substitute any other disenfranchised group into the same scenario and maybe you'll see it.

Is it not a reasonable hypothesis that perhaps the wage gap could be explained at least in part by different choices genders make?

From the Get Rich Slowly article:
Quote
The study did find that there was a big gender difference depending on how many post-MBA jobs someone has: A full 50 percent of men countered their first post-MBA offer by asking for a higher salary, compared to only 31 percent of women.

If women are getting lower salaries at the beginning of their career because they're not negotiating, that effect is going to be compounded years later. Men got a higher salary to begin with, so future raises have been based on it. Even if women start negotiating after that first job, they have more ground to make up.

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2014, 10:51:43 AM »
Even the article being quoted had to set out to counter the original answer for the salary gap-- that the women just weren't asking for the money. Of course it would have been accepted for years that the reason for the disparity was due to a failure the women.  Blame always goes to the victims first; that's standard.  Substitute any other disenfranchised group into the same scenario and maybe you'll see it.

Is it not a reasonable hypothesis that perhaps the wage gap could be explained at least in part by different choices genders make?

From the Get Rich Slowly article:
Quote
The study did find that there was a big gender difference depending on how many post-MBA jobs someone has: A full 50 percent of men countered their first post-MBA offer by asking for a higher salary, compared to only 31 percent of women.

If women are getting lower salaries at the beginning of their career because they're not negotiating, that effect is going to be compounded years later. Men got a higher salary to begin with, so future raises have been based on it. Even if women start negotiating after that first job, they have more ground to make up.
I think it is a valid hypothesis to make, but since we are human there are muliple causes.  Nor does it mean that we should ignore the other influences from other hypothesizes that have been shown validity.  For example, knowing that we (in general) feel backlash towards women for negotiating, one may re-think their first response to the act.  Or, in my field where it was noticed that females and minorities received lower percentage of grants (which lower rates of promotions and wage), names were removed from the applications in most granting institutions.  That was not the only reason, but it was shown to have some influence, so why not account for it?

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2014, 11:30:12 AM »
Seriously?  Can you not see what a sexist world we live in? The answer is, a long history of culturally ingrained sexism that, despite changing, is nowhere near over.  Females continue to be second-class citizens, if not by law (in some countries) then by culture.

Yes, seriously.  Maybe it's just a case of greener grass syndrome, but where I see sexism*, it is more often women who get the advantage, not men.

*In western society, of course.

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2014, 12:15:44 PM »
Seriously?  Can you not see what a sexist world we live in? The answer is, a long history of culturally ingrained sexism that, despite changing, is nowhere near over.  Females continue to be second-class citizens, if not by law (in some countries) then by culture.

Yes, seriously.  Maybe it's just a case of greener grass syndrome, but where I see sexism*, it is more often women who get the advantage, not men.

*In western society, of course.
James, most people would disagree with you, including many males.  Perhaps reading their viewpoint may interest you.  And just for my curiosity, what do you see as sexism towards males?

warfreak2

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2014, 12:17:42 PM »
Seriously?  Can you not see what a sexist world we live in? The answer is, a long history of culturally ingrained sexism that, despite changing, is nowhere near over.  Females continue to be second-class citizens, if not by law (in some countries) then by culture.

Yes, seriously.  Maybe it's just a case of greener grass syndrome, but where I see sexism*, it is more often women who get the advantage, not men.

*In western society, of course.
Essentially what this means is that you need to go and learn more about the world around you.

Count men and women in positions of power and wealth; politicians, executives, high earners, the wealthiest people. Older, white men are rather disproportionately represented, no? I can think of only three possible explanations:
  • Older, white men are better and more deserving of these positions.
  • Older, white men are disproportionately interested in attaining these positions.
  • Older, white men have privileges which enable them to attain these positions.
Number 1 is flat-out sexism, Number 2 is pretty sexist too ("women are less successful simply because they don't want to be successful" sounds like an argument only a man might try). Number 3 is highly plausible; people generally like other people who are similar to them, and one aspect of having power is having the power to choose who else has power.

If women get more "advantage"s over men, where are the results of that?

randymarsh

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2014, 01:15:58 PM »
Seriously?  Can you not see what a sexist world we live in? The answer is, a long history of culturally ingrained sexism that, despite changing, is nowhere near over.  Females continue to be second-class citizens, if not by law (in some countries) then by culture.
Number 3 is highly plausible; people generally like other people who are similar to them, and one aspect of having power is having the power to choose who else has power.

If women get more "advantage"s over men, where are the results of that?

Evidently not, because someone previously posted a study that said even women supervisors didn't like it when women negotiated. Women who are in positions of power don't seem to be choosing other women to have power.

You can't think of any aspect of society where women have advantage over men? Really?



Argyle

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2014, 01:31:07 PM »
It's typical and predictable that those who are not in specific groups are less aware of the disadvantages experienced by being in those groups.  I don't mean this as an off-the-cuff comment; I mean many academic studies demonstrate it.  The higher-privilege and higher-status groups know less about the lower-privilege and lower-status groups than the other way around.  Black people, for instance, know more about the white experience than white people know about the black experience.  Immigrants know more about mainstream America than mainstream America knows about the immigrant experience.  And so on.

I do wish that more people in the higher-echelon groups, society-wide, would respond with "Tell me more about what the studies say and what you know about your experience," rather than "You're not underprivileged!  It's the other way around!  I only look privileged!  Actually I am oppressed having to deal with the claims from you people!  There's no way you're disadvantaged!  No flipping way!"

I think what this thread illustrates is how far we still have to go.

warfreak2

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2014, 01:39:25 PM »
Evidently not, because someone previously posted a study that said even women supervisors didn't like it when women negotiated. Women who are in positions of power don't seem to be choosing other women to have power.
What is that evidence against? It directly supports the explanation that men have privileges which enable them to more easily attain positions of power, it just isn't the same support that I proposed.

Quote
You can't think of any aspect of society where women have advantage over men? Really?
I don't remember saying that...

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2014, 01:55:39 PM »
And I agree that women probably don't negotiate as much, but negotiation doesn't happen in a vacuum. Women who strongly voice opinions, and don't readily roll over are still largely considered bitches. While guys who do the same are just go-getters or leaders.

ugh, this. absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised if studies showed that women are generally behind due to their own "choices": not negotiating, not striving for leadership positions, prioritizing family over career (even temporarily), etc. what I would ask is, in our societal/cultural context, how many of these things are really choices?

(also, did you guys read "Lean In" and what did you think? I really liked it, but among my book club--men and women--the reaction was mixed.)

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2014, 02:01:45 PM »
And just for my curiosity, what do you see as sexism towards males?

Consider the whole area of relationships, for one instance.

Count men and women in positions of power and wealth; politicians, executives, high earners, the wealthiest people. Older, white men are rather disproportionately represented, no? I can think of only three possible explanations:
  • Older, white men are better and more deserving of these positions.
  • Older, white men are disproportionately interested in attaining these positions.
  • Older, white men have privileges which enable them to attain these positions.
Number 1 is flat-out sexism, Number 2 is pretty sexist too ("women are less successful simply because they don't want to be successful" sounds like an argument only a man might try). Number 3 is highly plausible; people generally like other people who are similar to them, and one aspect of having power is having the power to choose who else has power.

First, 'older' is hardly fair here, since it generally takes time to work up the career ladder.  No major corporation hires a CEO straight out of business school.

Why is #1 sexism, if they are in fact better?  Is the fact that (as of 2011) 78% of the players in the NBA are black flat-out racism?  Or is the NBA a meritocracy, in which the best players just happen (as the result of a lot of historical, cultural, and perhaps genetic factors) to be black?   FTM, why isn't the fact that there are no female players in these leagues likewise sexism?

(For comparison, 61% of NFL players are black, but only about 8% in major league baseball, 3% in the NHL.)

#2 is highly dependent on individual definitions of success.  If for instance you have zero interest in management, particularly upper management (as in fact I don't), then you're not likely to become 'successful', however much you may enjoy your work.  And is it not at least possible that women tend to have different definitions of success?

As for #3, I'm still waiting for my white guy privileges to show up :-)  I think you're misinterpreting the fact that a small fraction of men (and women) inherit positions of wealth & power.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2014, 02:10:51 PM »
And just for my curiosity, what do you see as sexism towards males?

Consider the whole area of relationships, for one instance.

that's pretty vague. could you elaborate? seems to me every relationship is different and, depending on the dysfunctional relationship, either gender can have "the upper hand," so to speak.

I thought you were going to say "divorce court," which is something I have heard tends to favor women but I know absolutely nothing about it, so I don't know if that's accurate or not.

As for #3, I'm still waiting for my white guy privileges to show up :-)

haha, what? seriously? I guess I don't know why I'm surprised, since one of the characteristics of privilege is that those who have it rarely recognize it, e.g. I never really have to think about the fact that I'm white and middle-class.

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2014, 03:03:38 PM »
Yes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.  The actual research agrees that overall, even when accounting for experience/training/hours, men get paid more then women.

But if you take a close look at those studies, you will likely find something that makes them not a true 1:1 comparison.  At least it's been so in the random selection I've looked at.  That's generally what happens when people do studies on something where they have an agenda.

Then you have men who simply don't negotiate - as I said above, I'm one of them.  Why do we not end up earning the (presumably lower) same amount as non-negotiating women?

The Atlantic interviewed a prominent researcher about about this: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/why-are-women-paid-less/263776/

Its an interview with a researcher who says that the gap is closer to 9% nationwide when you control for similar jobs/education/experience (original study: http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1248&context=ilrreview). The 73-77% numbers only apply when you don't take into account different job choice etc.


Also side note for another part of the discussion, the actual quote is "The plural of anecdote is data" http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0407a&L=ads-l&P=8874

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2014, 03:10:29 PM »
Yes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.  The actual research agrees that overall, even when accounting for experience/training/hours, men get paid more then women.

But if you take a close look at those studies, you will likely find something that makes them not a true 1:1 comparison.  At least it's been so in the random selection I've looked at.  That's generally what happens when people do studies on something where they have an agenda.

Then you have men who simply don't negotiate - as I said above, I'm one of them.  Why do we not end up earning the (presumably lower) same amount as non-negotiating women?

The Atlantic interviewed a prominent researcher about about this: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/why-are-women-paid-less/263776/

Its an interview with a researcher who says that the gap is closer to 9% nationwide when you control for similar jobs/education/experience (original study: http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1248&context=ilrreview). The 73-77% numbers only apply when you don't take into account different job choice etc.


Also side note for another part of the discussion, the actual quote is "The plural of anecdote is data" http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0407a&L=ads-l&P=8874
I was not quoting and I stand by my statement.  Data comes from peer reviewed studies with replicable results that at least attempt to account for biases.  Random anecdotes combined do not do that which is why we do research.
The OP is that women DO negotiate and that there is a pay difference even when you take everything into account, including negotiations which you seem to agree with.       

MDM

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2014, 03:54:34 PM »
I suspect Fortune 500 company pay statistics are not publicly available (it would be helpful to prove/disprove theories if they were), but here's a governmental study that is: http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/556984/gender-pay-analysis-december-2012.pdf.

There is a little more detail in the link, but the bottom line was "When considering equal pay for equal work, there is no statistical evidence of gender pay discrimination within State of Idaho classified employment."

Do I think that the world is a meritocracy and nobody is ever judged in ways other than how they "should" be judged?  No.

But I do think that in large companies statistical analysis similar to Idaho's example is the norm, and any gender/racial/etc. bias is within statistical error.  Now I have seen people of all sexes and races who were promoted because they managed to "look good" rather than "do good", but that's another topic....

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2014, 04:25:49 PM »
I suspect Fortune 500 company pay statistics are not publicly available (it would be helpful to prove/disprove theories if they were), but here's a governmental study that is: http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/556984/gender-pay-analysis-december-2012.pdf.

There is a little more detail in the link, but the bottom line was "When considering equal pay for equal work, there is no statistical evidence of gender pay discrimination within State of Idaho classified employment."

Do I think that the world is a meritocracy and nobody is ever judged in ways other than how they "should" be judged?  No.

But I do think that in large companies statistical analysis similar to Idaho's example is the norm, and any gender/racial/etc. bias is within statistical error.  Now I have seen people of all sexes and races who were promoted because they managed to "look good" rather than "do good", but that's another topic....
  Given that many, many other studies have shown bias outside of statistical error, I disagree though for the average.  I am sure there are some groups were there is no bias, but overall, based on the majority of research, I still think there is a disparity.  But it is not just wages. When I am reading an article about women and research and it says 50% of grad students are female but once you get to full professor only 20% are female, I don't how else to read that.  I know everyone of my classmates wants the prize, a full professorship so why is there such a disparity? 
ETA:  What you posted was not a study, btw, it was an opinion from HR in Idaho based on something called the Hay system designed by company.  Please read the criticism of this system:
"The Hay system consistently values male-dominated management functions over non-management functions more likely to be performed by women."
Steinburg, R. J. (1992). "Gendered Instructions – Cultural Lag and Gender Bias in the Hay System of Job Evaluation". Work and Occupations 19 (4): 387–423. doi:10.1177/0730888492019004004.
So, really not the best to determine this. So far we have studies that look at small groups that remove variables and the department of labor which does not.  Overall, both agree, women do get paid less.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 04:36:03 PM by Gin1984 »

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2014, 04:48:07 PM »
It's typical and predictable that those who are not in specific groups are less aware of the disadvantages experienced by being in those groups.  I don't mean this as an off-the-cuff comment; I mean many academic studies demonstrate it.  The higher-privilege and higher-status groups know less about the lower-privilege and lower-status groups than the other way around.  Black people, for instance, know more about the white experience than white people know about the black experience.  Immigrants know more about mainstream America than mainstream America knows about the immigrant experience.  And so on.

I do wish that more people in the higher-echelon groups, society-wide, would respond with "Tell me more about what the studies say and what you know about your experience," rather than "You're not underprivileged!  It's the other way around!  I only look privileged!  Actually I am oppressed having to deal with the claims from you people!  There's no way you're disadvantaged!  No flipping way!"

I think what this thread illustrates is how far we still have to go.

+1

 Might I also recommend, Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People, as suggest reading?

MDM

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2014, 04:58:59 PM »
ETA:  What you posted was not a study, btw, it was an opinion from HR in Idaho based on something called the Hay system designed by company.  Please read the criticism of this system:
"The Hay system consistently values male-dominated management functions over non-management functions more likely to be performed by women."
Steinburg, R. J. (1992). "Gendered Instructions – Cultural Lag and Gender Bias in the Hay System of Job Evaluation". Work and Occupations 19 (4): 387–423. doi:10.1177/0730888492019004004.
So, really not the best to determine this. So far we have studies that look at small groups that remove variables and the department of labor which does not.  Overall, both agree, women do get paid less.

Gin1984, you do make some good points. 

I'm all too familiar with the Hay system, having dealt with it for 30+ years.  An equally valid argument could be made that it "consistently values managers who sit in meetings over engineers who solve real problems" (e.g. the Pointy Haired Boss vs. Dilbert), so Hay isn't perfect. 

The male and female, black and white engineers who are at the same Hay level, however, are getting the same pay.  At least in large companies.  I'm also familiar with the "graduate student vs. professorial" population difference you cite, and agree with you there. 

Academic departments tend to be on the small side compared with businesses.  That gives the academics the ability to plead "small sample size" and say they shouldn't be held to statistical tests.  Perhaps true for any one department, but when aggregated across all U.S. universities it becomes tougher to sustain that argument.

And we can split hairs over whether Idaho did a "study" in the academic journal sense of the word, but come on: they studied their actual data and reported it. 

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2014, 05:04:40 PM »
ETA:  What you posted was not a study, btw, it was an opinion from HR in Idaho based on something called the Hay system designed by company.  Please read the criticism of this system:
"The Hay system consistently values male-dominated management functions over non-management functions more likely to be performed by women."
Steinburg, R. J. (1992). "Gendered Instructions – Cultural Lag and Gender Bias in the Hay System of Job Evaluation". Work and Occupations 19 (4): 387–423. doi:10.1177/0730888492019004004.
So, really not the best to determine this. So far we have studies that look at small groups that remove variables and the department of labor which does not.  Overall, both agree, women do get paid less.

Gin1984, you do make some good points. 

I'm all too familiar with the Hay system, having dealt with it for 30+ years.  An equally valid argument could be made that it "consistently values managers who sit in meetings over engineers who solve real problems" (e.g. the Pointy Haired Boss vs. Dilbert), so Hay isn't perfect. 

The male and female, black and white engineers who are at the same Hay level, however, are getting the same pay.  At least in large companies.  I'm also familiar with the "graduate student vs. professorial" population difference you cite, and agree with you there. 

Academic departments tend to be on the small side compared with businesses.  That gives the academics the ability to plead "small sample size" and say they shouldn't be held to statistical tests.  Perhaps true for any one department, but when aggregated across all U.S. universities it becomes tougher to sustain that argument.

And we can split hairs over whether Idaho did a "study" in the academic journal sense of the word, but come on: they studied their actual data and reported it.
No, that is not splitting hairs. There is a major difference between HRs opinion, which also does state that a women within that group make less than men, but then they use a biased system to try justify it.  That is not a study, the pure fact that it was not peer reviewed, no actual methods makes it invalid.  No study would be able to pull this BS because the methodology is flawed because they are trying to get a result and had to find something that has been long shown to be biased to even get there. 
Also, I have never heard academics say they should not be held to statistically tests. 
And frankly, when the majority of studies (actual peer reviewed ones), the bureau of labor and hell, even this HR memo say the women get paid less, that is a concern.  How about we look at changing our culture instead of finding anything to argue.... No, no, this is just in your mind, there is no discrimination.
And btw, actual studies when studying populations like male and female engineers, professors, doctors etc, disagree.  When accounting for hours, when still make less in professional jobs.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 06:10:42 PM by Gin1984 »

MDM

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2014, 05:36:22 PM »
And frankly, when ... even this HR memo say(s) the women get paid less, that is a concern.
You are entitled to your opinions but not your facts.  The Idaho "HR memo" explicitly claims that women in the group they studied were paid slightly more than men at the same job level.  I suppose they could have been lying but doubt it.
Quote
The Study:
 
The equal pay for equal work study focused on the amount the state pays females and males per
Hay point. This allowed different jobs that are compensably equal to be compared to each other.
This is the most accurate and most relevant method for comparing equal pay for equal work for
the classified workforce.
 
The Results:
 
On average, classified female employees earn an hourly wage of $.061 per Hay point – in
comparison classified male employees earn an hourly wage of $.060 per Hay point. The average
state classified job is assigned 322 Hay points – this would be the approximate equivalent to a
Counselor for the Blind or an Employment Coordinator position. At 322 Hay points, the average
classified female employee will make $19.64/hour (322 x $.061) and the average classified male
will make $19.32/hour (322 x $.060).


I had been hoping to present the perspective that some discrimination likely persists, but that it is not omnipresent.  Seems I may have grabbed the gas can instead of the water jug and thrown that on the flames.  Oh well....

Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2014, 05:59:20 PM »
And frankly, when ... even this HR memo say(s) the women get paid less, that is a concern.
You are entitled to your opinions but not your facts.  The Idaho "HR memo" explicitly claims that women in the group they studied were paid slightly more than men at the same job level.  I suppose they could have been lying but doubt it.
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The Study:
 
The equal pay for equal work study focused on the amount the state pays females and males per
Hay point. This allowed different jobs that are compensably equal to be compared to each other.
This is the most accurate and most relevant method for comparing equal pay for equal work for
the classified workforce.
 
The Results:
 
On average, classified female employees earn an hourly wage of $.061 per Hay point – in
comparison classified male employees earn an hourly wage of $.060 per Hay point. The average
state classified job is assigned 322 Hay points – this would be the approximate equivalent to a
Counselor for the Blind or an Employment Coordinator position. At 322 Hay points, the average
classified female employee will make $19.64/hour (322 x $.061) and the average classified male
will make $19.32/hour (322 x $.060).


I had been hoping to present the perspective that some discrimination likely persists, but that it is not omnipresent.  Seems I may have grabbed the gas can instead of the water jug and thrown that on the flames.  Oh well....
They say the average employee, once they use this flawed methodology, are about equal.  They do not compared actual wages without this methodology which has been shown to be biased towards male jobs.  If they were about to compared men and women directly, they would not have needed to use it.  Given that Hay method has been shown (for more than a decade) sexist and value certain jobs in a way to classify the jobs as "higher worth" why use it?  The only reason is to hide the actual facts.  "As of December 2012, State of Idaho classified females earn, on average, $0.88 for every $1 that classified male employees earn.".  If by separating them just by job discription, this went away, why not do that? 
And yes, this is a memo from HR, nothing else.

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2014, 06:06:10 PM »
The point is that due to the gender bias inherent in the Hay job evaluation, a woman's job at 322 Hay points is likely not equivalent to a man's job at 322 Hay points. The study also says this:
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As of December 2012, State of Idaho classified females earn, on average, $0.88 for every $1 that classified male employees earn.
That's what Gin1984 is pointing at. Sure, it's not a like-for-like comparison, but neither is a comparison based on the Hay job evaluation.

MDM

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2014, 08:02:44 PM »
Academic departments tend to be on the small side compared with businesses.  That gives the academics the ability to plead "small sample size" and say they shouldn't be held to statistical tests.  Perhaps true for any one department, but when aggregated across all U.S. universities it becomes tougher to sustain that argument.
Also, I have never heard academics say they should not be held to statistically tests. 
Ok, I'm much more familiar with industry than academia so am interested in your perspective here.  The "small sample size" comment came in a discussion with a group of world-renowned professors we had invited for discussion on various topics.  One topic was attracting and retaining good people.  All the professors were male, so we asked about the situation you described:
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women and research and it says 50% of grad students are female but once you get to full professor only 20% are female
  (or thereabouts).  Don't recall all the answers but do recall the "small sample size" comment and some hemming and hawing.

As it seems you have an insider's view of the academic world: what are your thoughts on the current situation and what if anything should be done differently?


Gin1984

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2014, 08:15:28 PM »
Academic departments tend to be on the small side compared with businesses.  That gives the academics the ability to plead "small sample size" and say they shouldn't be held to statistical tests.  Perhaps true for any one department, but when aggregated across all U.S. universities it becomes tougher to sustain that argument.
Also, I have never heard academics say they should not be held to statistically tests. 
Ok, I'm much more familiar with industry than academia so am interested in your perspective here.  The "small sample size" comment came in a discussion with a group of world-renowned professors we had invited for discussion on various topics.  One topic was attracting and retaining good people.  All the professors were male, so we asked about the situation you described:
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women and research and it says 50% of grad students are female but once you get to full professor only 20% are female
  (or thereabouts).  Don't recall all the answers but do recall the "small sample size" comment and some hemming and hawing.

As it seems you have an insider's view of the academic world: what are your thoughts on the current situation and what if anything should be done differently?
Honestly there needs to be more control over the assigned "services".  Those are required as part of the job, and the chair assigns them.  We had new faculty come in and the chair assigned the female a service that averaged about 10/month and the three males services that only take an hour a month.  That takes away from the female's time to do research which she needs to do to be promoted. 
There was a study that showed that men and women in academia spend the same amount of time working (an average of a little over 60 hours) but that women do more service and men more research. 
In addition, many of the women who have succeeded in the past did so by just working so much more than the men which means that is what they expect of their students.  Well, then they lose some good students because those students require a work/life balance.  They lose the ones who are smart enough to connect with older students and ask questions so they get the lower end crop.   We need to change the culture, just as we need to in many areas.  The culture is not from just men or just women but both, in different ways.  As a female researcher I am judged against my male colleagues for some stuff and my female for others.  For example, we had a discussion about questions to discuss with post-doc mentors.  The males and females asked the same questions but the men did so much more bluntly.  If a woman would do so, she would be label bitchy and rude.  Being aware of these things is a major step.  Stopping and thinking, am I being reasonable, would I judge the other gender the same way, am I have a prejudice would go a long way.  It is the same as that minorities get, they are judged as the token, they have to be the golden child, otherwise their faults will be blamed on their ethnicity. 
I am not saying everyone does it, I am not saying that most that do it, are doing it intentionally.  The men at my university do MANY things sexist but not because they think badly of women, it is just the culture.  Let's change the culture.

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2014, 09:25:51 PM »
Gin1984, thank you for that perspective.  There is a female PhD candidate whom I know very well (she has a female advisor also) and it will be interesting to discuss this with her.

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2014, 11:02:32 PM »
Consider the whole area of relationships, for one instance.

that's pretty vague. could you elaborate? seems to me every relationship is different and, depending on the dysfunctional relationship, either gender can have "the upper hand," so to speak.

OK, to start from the beginning...  What percentage of women ever ask a man for a date?  The male is still generally supposed to 'pursue' the female, these days risking the consequences of sexual harassment if he misjudges his pursuit.  He's expected to spend lavishly on meals, gifts, and so on, even though the female may nowadays make as much or more than he does. 

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I thought you were going to say "divorce court," which is something I have heard tends to favor women but I know absolutely nothing about it, so I don't know if that's accurate or not.

My knowledge too is only second or third hand.

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As for #3, I'm still waiting for my white guy privileges to show up :-)

haha, what? seriously? I guess I don't know why I'm surprised, since one of the characteristics of privilege is that those who have it rarely recognize it, e.g. I never really have to think about the fact that I'm white and middle-class.

You perhaps noticed that there were two factors there, 'white' and 'middle class'?  Try being white and poor for a while, and you might gain some perspective on which is the really important one.

When I am reading an article about women and research and it says 50% of grad students are female but once you get to full professor only 20% are female, I don't how else to read that.

Perhaps it depends on what field you're in.  My own experience is that it's closer to 20% female grad students in STEM, and about the same ratio in professorships.

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I know everyone of my classmates wants the prize, a full professorship so why is there such a disparity?

In STEM, a professorship is not such a prize.  Most grad students want careers in industry or research.  (Indeed, some of us have had such careers, but return for advanced study/research out of interest.  I'm one such: another guy working in the same research area made multiple millions from a tech startup.)

As for why there's a disparity, it's pretty simple.  Call it 'mommy track', if you like.  Any person can only do so much, and it's just a fact of life that many women will choose to sacrifice career for children, while many men sacrifice children for career.  (Not that either gender necessarily regards the choice as a sacrifice.)  That choice, I think, accounts for a lot of the supposed disparity in earnings &c in almost every field. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 11:07:46 PM by Jamesqf »

smalllife

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2014, 04:42:07 AM »
As for why there's a disparity, it's pretty simple.  Call it 'mommy track', if you like.  Any person can only do so much, and it's just a fact of life that many women will choose to sacrifice career for children, while many men sacrifice children for career.  (Not that either gender necessarily regards the choice as a sacrifice.)  That choice, I think, accounts for a lot of the supposed disparity in earnings &c in almost every field.

While there is certainly a 'mommy track' in certain fields, the issue arises when hiring managers/promoters/etc assume all women will eventually take that track when that is no longer the case.  If you have an engaged female of 26 vs an engaged male of 26 and you have a five year plan for the position opening, which will the HR person lean towards (conscious or not)?  It is that underlying assumption that needs to be challenged and changed.

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Re: Money mythbuster: Women don’t negotiate- from get rich slowly
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2014, 05:22:12 AM »
OK, to start from the beginning...  What percentage of women ever ask a man for a date?  The male is still generally supposed to 'pursue' the female, these days risking the consequences of sexual harassment if he misjudges his pursuit.  He's expected to spend lavishly on meals, gifts, and so on, even though the female may nowadays make as much or more than he does. 
This sounds like sociology as taught by 90s sitcoms and lazy standup comedians. Generally, rhetorical questions like "what percentage of women..." mean you don't have a clue what the real answer is, but you're hoping everyone else will make the same prejudiced guess that you did. For reference, pretty much anything you learned about gender by watching TV is misogynist garbage.

If you actually think asking a woman on a date is "risking the consequences of sexual harrassment", then you're asking the wrong way in the wrong situation. I suspect it's just a straw man argument - but if this is your actual experience of the world, then you might need to learn some self-awareness before you ask another woman on a date.

Sexual harrassment is all too common, overwhelmingly committed by men against women, and very rarely is anything done about it. Many men ask women in lewd, repulsive ways; many men ask women that they have power over, and/or in ways or contexts in which a negative response will result in resentment or insults from the man. No misandry, there's just an expectation that you don't act like a dick.

If anything, the social expectation is that if a man asks nicely and treats a woman well, then he deserves for her to go on a date with him. If the woman declines, she is "friendzoning" him. More misogyny.

Society has a strange idea that women who "pursue" men are "easy", "sluts", &c. If this sounds like misandry to you then you need to think about it a bit more.

It may surprise you to learn that actually, most women are not gold-diggers looking for a man to spend a lot of money on them. Another prejudice, and again, not exactly misandry.

 

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