Author Topic: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you  (Read 5443 times)

Icecreamarsenal

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If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« on: March 21, 2019, 01:19:30 PM »
Joe Rogan on Ben Shapiro's podcast:

"If you have fuck you money and you don't say fuck you, who will?"

https://youtu.be/KdFMBSPxfMw

ender

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 02:07:31 PM »
Reminds me of the recent thing with Bezos recently and the National Inquirer.

marty998

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 02:11:08 PM »
Not gonna even click that link.... Shapiro is one of those toxic outrage brigade of commentators that all of us would be better off from not listening to.

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 04:00:39 PM »
Not gonna even click that link.... Shapiro is one of those toxic outrage brigade of commentators that all of us would be better off from not listening to.

I did.  Curiously, I didn't magically turn into a Nazi.  Though I still disagree with him on many points.  Really it was two guys having a civil conversation and the only real bad part was it had very little to do with FIRE.  The tagline wasn't until the end.

JZinCO

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 04:11:30 PM »
I saw that episode when it was newish. If I recall, Joe Rogan was considered alt-right because he has conservative speakers on (conveniently ignoring left wing and apolitical guests), in particular Alex Jones, and at that time Alex Jones was still getting flamed for his crap. So for awhile Joe Rogan was in a defensive posture. This comes out in the interview with Shapiro. Anyway, I like Rogan. Neil deGrasse Tysonbeat the conspiracy-minded framework of fallacious reasoning out of Rogan; since then Rogan's thinking has sharpened.

Here is Rogan with Russel Brand (a socialist) and Jim Breuer, speaking on fuck you money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEc1qeD7UQc&feature=youtu.be&t=2h34m22s
I resonate with him saying 'If I have opinions and I don't express them because I'm worried about job opportunities, I'm already in prison'.
I think the interview with Peter Schiff would be of more interest for MMM readers.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 04:16:10 PM by JZinCO »

Wrenchturner

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2019, 05:56:48 PM »
I don't watch Rogan that much but it would be interesting to see someone Mustachian on there.  I don't recall any guests that I've seen on his show that would count.  But Rogan is a wealthy guy who gets shit done and probably throws around a fair bit of coin.  It would be interesting to see someone chat with him about more stoic/frugal ideas.  He generally doesn't like "famine thinking" but I think he's also somewhat detached from more working-class types.

clarkfan1979

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2019, 12:00:58 PM »
I saw that episode when it was newish. If I recall, Joe Rogan was considered alt-right because he has conservative speakers on (conveniently ignoring left wing and apolitical guests), in particular Alex Jones, and at that time Alex Jones was still getting flamed for his crap. So for awhile Joe Rogan was in a defensive posture. This comes out in the interview with Shapiro. Anyway, I like Rogan. Neil deGrasse Tysonbeat the conspiracy-minded framework of fallacious reasoning out of Rogan; since then Rogan's thinking has sharpened.

Here is Rogan with Russel Brand (a socialist) and Jim Breuer, speaking on fuck you money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEc1qeD7UQc&feature=youtu.be&t=2h34m22s
I resonate with him saying 'If I have opinions and I don't express them because I'm worried about job opportunities, I'm already in prison'.
I think the interview with Peter Schiff would be of more interest for MMM readers.

I think true, "FU Money" is when you have enough to never have to enter the workforce again. If you are 25 years old, have 100K saved and want to tell your current boss to go "F" themselves, you better hope you never see that boss again in your career.

If the goal is to FIRE asap, then burning bridges will not help you get there. If you want to burn a bridge at your final stop, then go for it. You earned it. 


MonkeyJenga

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2019, 12:30:58 PM »
You don't need to say the literal words "fuck you"! It just means, you can quit your job without a new job lined up, because you have enough money to survive an extended period of job hunting. Or that you can speak up about issues in the workplace without fear of being fired, because you won't go bankrupt.

Malkynn

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2019, 12:31:08 PM »
I saw that episode when it was newish. If I recall, Joe Rogan was considered alt-right because he has conservative speakers on (conveniently ignoring left wing and apolitical guests), in particular Alex Jones, and at that time Alex Jones was still getting flamed for his crap. So for awhile Joe Rogan was in a defensive posture. This comes out in the interview with Shapiro. Anyway, I like Rogan. Neil deGrasse Tysonbeat the conspiracy-minded framework of fallacious reasoning out of Rogan; since then Rogan's thinking has sharpened.

Here is Rogan with Russel Brand (a socialist) and Jim Breuer, speaking on fuck you money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEc1qeD7UQc&feature=youtu.be&t=2h34m22s
I resonate with him saying 'If I have opinions and I don't express them because I'm worried about job opportunities, I'm already in prison'.
I think the interview with Peter Schiff would be of more interest for MMM readers.

I think true, "FU Money" is when you have enough to never have to enter the workforce again. If you are 25 years old, have 100K saved and want to tell your current boss to go "F" themselves, you better hope you never see that boss again in your career.

If the goal is to FIRE asap, then burning bridges will not help you get there. If you want to burn a bridge at your final stop, then go for it. You earned it.

It depends on your circumstances.
I burned my last boss pretty badly and it has no impact on my career.

Everyone's career is different. You really can't generalize.
For some, FU money needs to be full FI, for some of us, just having a decent emergency fund is enough to embolden us to be fearless in our careers.

scottish

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2019, 08:04:50 PM »
I saw that episode when it was newish. If I recall, Joe Rogan was considered alt-right because he has conservative speakers on (conveniently ignoring left wing and apolitical guests), in particular Alex Jones, and at that time Alex Jones was still getting flamed for his crap. So for awhile Joe Rogan was in a defensive posture. This comes out in the interview with Shapiro. Anyway, I like Rogan. Neil deGrasse Tysonbeat the conspiracy-minded framework of fallacious reasoning out of Rogan; since then Rogan's thinking has sharpened.

Here is Rogan with Russel Brand (a socialist) and Jim Breuer, speaking on fuck you money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEc1qeD7UQc&feature=youtu.be&t=2h34m22s
I resonate with him saying 'If I have opinions and I don't express them because I'm worried about job opportunities, I'm already in prison'.
I think the interview with Peter Schiff would be of more interest for MMM readers.

I think true, "FU Money" is when you have enough to never have to enter the workforce again. If you are 25 years old, have 100K saved and want to tell your current boss to go "F" themselves, you better hope you never see that boss again in your career.

If the goal is to FIRE asap, then burning bridges will not help you get there. If you want to burn a bridge at your final stop, then go for it. You earned it.

It depends on your circumstances.
I burned my last boss pretty badly and it has no impact on my career.

Everyone's career is different. You really can't generalize.
For some, FU money needs to be full FI, for some of us, just having a decent emergency fund is enough to embolden us to be fearless in our careers.

I think it's better to just say "No thank you."  when you're told to do something unacceptable.   Be polite, there's no need to get insubordinate and possibly give them leverage to control your departure date.

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2019, 09:23:22 PM »
I saw that episode when it was newish. If I recall, Joe Rogan was considered alt-right because he has conservative speakers on (conveniently ignoring left wing and apolitical guests), in particular Alex Jones, and at that time Alex Jones was still getting flamed for his crap. So for awhile Joe Rogan was in a defensive posture. This comes out in the interview with Shapiro. Anyway, I like Rogan. Neil deGrasse Tysonbeat the conspiracy-minded framework of fallacious reasoning out of Rogan; since then Rogan's thinking has sharpened.

Here is Rogan with Russel Brand (a socialist) and Jim Breuer, speaking on fuck you money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEc1qeD7UQc&feature=youtu.be&t=2h34m22s
I resonate with him saying 'If I have opinions and I don't express them because I'm worried about job opportunities, I'm already in prison'.
I think the interview with Peter Schiff would be of more interest for MMM readers.

I think true, "FU Money" is when you have enough to never have to enter the workforce again. If you are 25 years old, have 100K saved and want to tell your current boss to go "F" themselves, you better hope you never see that boss again in your career.

If the goal is to FIRE asap, then burning bridges will not help you get there. If you want to burn a bridge at your final stop, then go for it. You earned it.

It depends on your circumstances.
I burned my last boss pretty badly and it has no impact on my career.

Everyone's career is different. You really can't generalize.
For some, FU money needs to be full FI, for some of us, just having a decent emergency fund is enough to embolden us to be fearless in our careers.

I think it's better to just say "No thank you."  when you're told to do something unacceptable.   Be polite, there's no need to get insubordinate and possibly give them leverage to control your departure date.

To me it totally depends on context.  Especially what wrong thing you're ordered to do and under what circumstances.  "No thank you." is a perfectly adequate go-to response 99% of the time in most jobs.  Even, maybe especially, if you plan to drop a nuclear bomb later.  However, politeness and professionalism in a vacuum are not virtues.  Some bridges are worth burning; some enemies are worth having, winning some battles are worth losing the war for.

Malkynn

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2019, 05:54:36 AM »

I think true, "FU Money" is when you have enough to never have to enter the workforce again. If you are 25 years old, have 100K saved and want to tell your current boss to go "F" themselves, you better hope you never see that boss again in your career.

If the goal is to FIRE asap, then burning bridges will not help you get there. If you want to burn a bridge at your final stop, then go for it. You earned it.

It depends on your circumstances.
I burned my last boss pretty badly and it has no impact on my career.

Everyone's career is different. You really can't generalize.
For some, FU money needs to be full FI, for some of us, just having a decent emergency fund is enough to embolden us to be fearless in our careers.
[/quote]

I think it's better to just say "No thank you."  when you're told to do something unacceptable.   Be polite, there's no need to get insubordinate and possibly give them leverage to control your departure date.
[/quote]

Oh no no no...
In my particular case, it actually was as graceful an exit as possible, but that bridge needed to be burned and I've gained a lot of professional respect as a result.

It was a situation that was far more complex than simply politely declining to do something.

My point was that it depends on the circumstances, but yes, I agree, not burning bridges unless you have to is always preferable.

That said, we may have a different definition of "burning bridges" since you seem to be implying it as being unnecessarily impolite/insubordinate and I'm defining it as any scenario where the way you choose to exit leaves bad blood with your employer.

scottish

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2019, 09:08:06 AM »
Well...  I tend to do a poor delivery when I'm pissed off enough to be impolite.   So it doesn't have the desired impact.   

But mostly I'd avoid giving the other party a negotiating advantage.    It's much easier to (figuratively) smack them upside the head if they don't see it coming.    And you do need to be careful about choosing which bridge to burn.



Malkynn

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2019, 09:51:20 AM »
Well...  I tend to do a poor delivery when I'm pissed off enough to be impolite.   So it doesn't have the desired impact.   

But mostly I'd avoid giving the other party a negotiating advantage.    It's much easier to (figuratively) smack them upside the head if they don't see it coming.    And you do need to be careful about choosing which bridge to burn.

Absolutely.
Our posts can be combined to say "be very strategic in burning bridges unless you are 100% done with your career"

I just like to point out that most people can afford to be a lot bolder than they think they can in their careers. There are tons of post-FIRE folks who ended up far more successful after they stopped worrying so much about avoiding conflict.

For me, being extremely bold has benefitted my career tremendously.

FIREstache

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2019, 02:50:38 PM »
You don't need to say the literal words "fuck you"! It just means, you can quit your job without a new job lined up, because you have enough money to survive an extended period of job hunting. Or that you can speak up about issues in the workplace without fear of being fired, because you won't go bankrupt.
That's what I would say also.  I've got FU money but am also FI and still working, so not RE.

Daisy

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 10:38:02 PM »
You don't need to say the literal words "fuck you"! It just means, you can quit your job without a new job lined up, because you have enough money to survive an extended period of job hunting. Or that you can speak up about issues in the workplace without fear of being fired, because you won't go bankrupt.

OR...

You can speak up about issues in the workplace with the hope of being FIREd, with a severance.

Heard it from a friend.

peterk

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2019, 08:48:01 AM »
"What's the point of having fuck you money if you don't get to say fuck you?"

Bobby Axlerod

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2019, 07:13:55 AM »
I will probably end up burning the bridge when I leave my current job. My current boss takes anyone leaving really badly. Granted I am probably leaving the country after and it is not my homeland or my fiancee's home land.

Me and my boss do not work well together and I was completely happy with the idea of moving back to America or to the Philippines. However, we decided to stay in Taiwan for at least another year. But soon I will have that satisfaction.

Dicey

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2019, 12:02:11 PM »
My first pile of FU Money was also called Down Payment Fund. I had a year's salary in the bank and I used most of it to buy my first property. I immediately felt the difference when that money morphed into something illiquid. The second time was when I bought a home before I could sell the first one and took out a 401k loan to bridge the gap. The deal was too good to pass up, and was worth it in the end. The third time was when I bought my vacation rental/eventual retirement home. Juggling two mortgages made me feel trapped, so I switched from self-employed, straight commission to a salary + bonus job. A bit less money, a lot more stability.

All of these inspired me to keep stocking the larder until I had enough to finally give my employer the middle finger they so richly deserved. Happily, I did it on my own terms and not under pressure.

The real answer to the question is that having FU Money gives you a sense of empowerment. Yup, Money = Power.

ender

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2019, 08:15:12 AM »
My first pile of FU Money was also called Down Payment Fund. I had a year's salary in the bank and I used most of it to buy my first property. I immediately felt the difference when that money morphed into something illiquid. The second time was when I bought a home before I could sell the first one and took out a 401k loan to bridge the gap. The deal was too good to pass up, and was worth it in the end. The third time was when I bought my vacation rental/eventual retirement home. Juggling two mortgages made me feel trapped, so I switched from self-employed, straight commission to a salary + bonus job. A bit less money, a lot more stability.


This is exactly how I felt too!

We went from having 3+ years of living expenses to... more like 6-8 months worth.

cooking

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2019, 12:25:30 PM »
Not to inject politics here, but the following strikes me as an instructive and public example of extreme and apparently completely unnecessary obsequiousness when exiting a job: Rod Rosenstein leaves his job with what we can assume is a very comfortable pension and no apparent future political ambitions.  He is aware of all the lawlessness coming from the administration.  Yet he submits a resignation letter effusively praising Trump for non-existent accomplishments.  A person in this situation doesn't need to say "fuck you", but he certainly should have felt secure enough to not publicly resort to kissing ass.  Why not preserve some personal dignity, for heavens sake?

Dicey

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2019, 12:50:07 PM »
Not to inject politics here, but the following strikes me as an instructive and public example of extreme and apparently completely unnecessary obsequiousness when exiting a job: Rod Rosenstein leaves his job with what we can assume is a very comfortable pension and no apparent future political ambitions.  He is aware of all the lawlessness coming from the administration.  Yet he submits a resignation letter effusively praising Trump for non-existent accomplishments.  A person in this situation doesn't need to say "fuck you", but he certainly should have felt secure enough to not publicly resort to kissing ass.  Why not preserve some personal dignity, for heavens sake?
It's called not burning bridges. I suspect that his overtly excessive politeness is a well understood code to insiders.

I'm presently on a board that has become significantly less [something] than it used to be. I have a lot to say about this, but expect my input to continue to fall on deaf ears. Recently another board member quit for reasons unknown. Her letter of resignation is a textbook example of effusive politeness while saying nothing. I joked that when I decide I am no longer interested in attempting to be useful to this organization, I am going to submit her exact letter with my name on it instead of hers.

Note that I am approaching seven years FIRE. I have plenty of FU money, and this is a volunteer position. You don't always have to extend your middle finger for others to get that's exactly what you're doing.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2019, 08:18:04 PM »
It is a little classless to burn bridges even if the organisation you are leaving is genuinely corrupt.

Even if there is no disincentive for you (since you're retired and immune from economic impact), you may still have friends inside the organisation who would not want you to rock the boat.

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2019, 01:07:03 AM »
It is a little classless to burn bridges even if the organisation you are leaving is genuinely corrupt.

Even if there is no disincentive for you (since you're retired and immune from economic impact), you may still have friends inside the organisation who would not want you to rock the boat.

I would say it truly lacks class to slink away from a corrupt organization like a beaten dog because of what the other inmates think.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2019, 07:04:04 AM »
Bit over dramatic.

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2019, 06:00:24 PM »
Bit over dramatic.

I guess you've never worked for a truly corrupt organization.  Pray you never do.

Dicey

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2019, 01:21:09 AM »
Bit over dramatic.

I guess you've never worked for a truly corrupt organization.  Pray you never do.
One might say that the way you leave says more about you than your  employer, no matter how "corrupt" the situation is.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2019, 02:26:13 AM »
If it was that corrupt then why work there till your FIRE date?

A bit of class and grace never goes awry - neither does an understanding of the wants and desires of your co-workers.

Malkynn

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2019, 05:25:47 AM »
If it was that corrupt then why work there till your FIRE date?

A bit of class and grace never goes awry - neither does an understanding of the wants and desires of your co-workers.

I agree, but I also know from personal experience that sometimes the height of class is holding true to your values and some bridges have to burn in order to do that.

Just last week I visited a place where I not only burned my bridges with the leadership, I pissed on them while they burned. I was told that I'm a bit of a legend and now that there's new leadership, they're trying to recruit me back.

Sometimes integrity is the classiest move.

As for leaving corrupt institutions, well, it's not always that simple. I mean, take a tenured professor who is aware of a rampant sexual harrassment problem within their department. Should they abandon their life's work and pension because there is severe corruption within their institution?

Overall yes, the goal should be to try and work for organizations you can respect, and to always try to leave on good terms. However, let's also make space for the very real exceptions and not assume that all people who can't follow that path somehow lack class.

Parizade

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2019, 06:13:25 AM »
Bit over dramatic.

Maybe Australia is a more civilized country than the USA, here's a sampling of some bad employers here from just last year. I would throw as many f-bombs and burn as many bridges as necessary to get away from such beasts.

Meet America's Worst Employers of 2018
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 06:49:19 AM by Parizade »

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2019, 10:23:23 AM »
Not according to this article. 

https://www.hcamag.com/au/specialisation/corporate-wellness/australian-workplaces-are-the-worst-in-the-world/138119

I guess some Australian employees are conditioned to act like beaten dogs.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2019, 03:39:01 PM »
That article relates to bullying, not corruption, so it's a bit of a red herring.

In any case, other than blatant fraud/criminality, which you should report immediately (and therefore would not be relevant to someone's FIRE date), how do you even objectively know whether an employer is corrupt? If you're a little employee, you are not privy to the real machinations of the company and therefore you have no objectivity. What seems like corruption to a little fish might just be legal business practice within the industry. Meanwhile, if you are one of the higher-ups, you need to consider the views of all of your mates who are also higher-ups and where that all fits in. It's all very subtle and nuanced.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 03:48:35 PM by Bloop Bloop »

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2019, 05:44:08 PM »
That article relates to bullying, not corruption, so it's a bit of a red herring.

In any case, other than blatant fraud/criminality, which you should report immediately (and therefore would not be relevant to someone's FIRE date), how do you even objectively know whether an employer is corrupt? If you're a little employee, you are not privy to the real machinations of the company and therefore you have no objectivity. What seems like corruption to a little fish might just be legal business practice within the industry. Meanwhile, if you are one of the higher-ups, you need to consider the views of all of your mates who are also higher-ups and where that all fits in. It's all very subtle and nuanced.

The article speaks to the attitude that an employee must hold themselves to some absurd behavioral standard while their company screws them no matter what.  If bullying is this big a problem in Australia, maybe such subservience is learned behavior. 

But whatever. 

Go ahead and do what your bosses order you to do no matter what.  Don't question them because they are John Galtesque masters of subtle nuance your tiny peon brain can't comprehend.  If they do something immoral or order you to do it for them, it's probably legal so it's OK.  Don't listen to any prattle about preying on the vulnerable or gullible or silly things about legality not necessarily equaling morality.  You are too feeble minded to detect, let alone judge such actions.  (Definitely ignore the entire FU Money thread with the dozens of stories by people claiming they did!)  Your employers will get away with it and so will you - thanks to the company lawyers.  If the authorities misinterpret the law and your bosses betray you to save their hides, it's for your own good and all for the best.  Ditto if they over load you with work, sexually harass you, don't pay you a living wage, don't promote you in accordance with your responsibilities, or jerk you around in numerous petty ways or do the same to your co-workers whose opinions you so treasure.  Stay the course, trust the process, and don't question it. 

Bloop Bloop

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2019, 08:39:09 PM »
I think you're drawing a long bow, and maybe (to mix my metaphors), exposing the chip on your shoulder. Otherwise, you've just got an axe to grind, or perhaps you've gotten up on the wrong side of bed.

I'm all for employees - and bosses - doing what their conscience tells them, but all the same, they have to understand the socio-cultural network in which they find themselves, and the value of accrued social capital. That is the subtly nuanced part.

Plus, there's no clear distinction between employee and boss. A decade ago Bob might have been a little peon. Then bit by bit he gains self-direction, understanding, and control within his firm. Now perhaps he is a partner and all his friends are partners. At what point did he transform from "peon" to John Galt overlord?

I suggest to you that there are more shades of grey than your analysis allows.


Daisy

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2019, 10:29:10 PM »
A resignation letter may not be the appropriate channel to disclose corruptness. It can open one up to legal challenges, that's for sure. There are more effective ways to report corruption.

When I left my employer, I went to HR first to report the possible illegal behavior of my manager (dealing with labor laws). The company was then aware of the issues and could do what they wished with this manager. My resignation letter was polite, saying goodbye to people and a company I had worked for for many years, mostly happy years.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 10:31:05 PM by Daisy »

bacchi

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2019, 08:56:03 AM »
I think you're drawing a long bow, and maybe (to mix my metaphors), exposing the chip on your shoulder. Otherwise, you've just got an axe to grind, or perhaps you've gotten up on the wrong side of bed.

I'm all for employees - and bosses - doing what their conscience tells them, but all the same, they have to understand the socio-cultural network in which they find themselves, and the value of accrued social capital. That is the subtly nuanced part.

Why do you assume that people who use their FU money to burn bridges haven't thought of that? Do you work only with 19 year old interns who need mentorship?

It seems obvious that someone who has saved $500k at age 32 (ie., FU money) probably isn't some fresh-out-of-college delicate flower who needs protection from their decisions made at the workplace.

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2019, 10:06:47 AM »
I think you're drawing a long bow, and maybe (to mix my metaphors), exposing the chip on your shoulder. Otherwise, you've just got an axe to grind, or perhaps you've gotten up on the wrong side of bed.

I'm all for employees - and bosses - doing what their conscience tells them, but all the same, they have to understand the socio-cultural network in which they find themselves, and the value of accrued social capital. That is the subtly nuanced part.

Plus, there's no clear distinction between employee and boss. A decade ago Bob might have been a little peon. Then bit by bit he gains self-direction, understanding, and control within his firm. Now perhaps he is a partner and all his friends are partners. At what point did he transform from "peon" to John Galt overlord?

I suggest to you that there are more shades of grey than your analysis allows.

If you go further up the thread you'll note that while I claim burning bridges is what employees should do in some cases, in most cases it's better just to leave.  Most especially if you DO intend to bring the authorities in and you don't want the company covering their tracks, concocting BS about you, and reinforcing that BS with your fit going out the door.

Your "how do you even objectively know whether an employer is corrupt? If you're a little employee, you are not privy to the real machinations of the company and therefore you have no objectivity. What seems like corruption to a little fish might just be legal business practice within the industry. Meanwhile, if you are one of the higher-ups, you need to consider the views of all of your mates who are also higher-ups and where that all fits in. It's all very subtle and nuanced." inspired the John Galt bit.  That quote sounds exactly how a peon who drank the Kool-Aid speaks.  Or an HR in a particularly authoritarian company dispensing said Kool-Aid.

Regardless, just keep drinking it.  Someday your betters will...reward you or something. 

Bloop Bloop

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2019, 04:03:39 PM »
I think you're drawing a long bow, and maybe (to mix my metaphors), exposing the chip on your shoulder. Otherwise, you've just got an axe to grind, or perhaps you've gotten up on the wrong side of bed.

I'm all for employees - and bosses - doing what their conscience tells them, but all the same, they have to understand the socio-cultural network in which they find themselves, and the value of accrued social capital. That is the subtly nuanced part.

Why do you assume that people who use their FU money to burn bridges haven't thought of that? Do you work only with 19 year old interns who need mentorship?

It seems obvious that someone who has saved $500k at age 32 (ie., FU money) probably isn't some fresh-out-of-college delicate flower who needs protection from their decisions made at the workplace.

It's not about protecting yourself from your workplace, but protecting your mates who still work there, or within the industry.

As for EricL's comments - which continue to devolve into personal attacks, which is a poor way to go about it, frankly - I am not even an employee; I am a business owner. Most of my friends who previously were 'employees' are now buying into partnership, hence my comment about at some point the peon becomes the business owner. I don't think there's anything wrong with my industry, but if there were and I whistle blew, what would that mean for my friends who are partners? What would it mean for their finances and lifestyles?


EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2019, 05:07:58 PM »
I think you're drawing a long bow, and maybe (to mix my metaphors), exposing the chip on your shoulder. Otherwise, you've just got an axe to grind, or perhaps you've gotten up on the wrong side of bed.

I'm all for employees - and bosses - doing what their conscience tells them, but all the same, they have to understand the socio-cultural network in which they find themselves, and the value of accrued social capital. That is the subtly nuanced part.

Why do you assume that people who use their FU money to burn bridges haven't thought of that? Do you work only with 19 year old interns who need mentorship?

It seems obvious that someone who has saved $500k at age 32 (ie., FU money) probably isn't some fresh-out-of-college delicate flower who needs protection from their decisions made at the workplace.

It's not about protecting yourself from your workplace, but protecting your mates who still work there, or within the industry.

As for EricL's comments - which continue to devolve into personal attacks, which is a poor way to go about it, frankly - I am not even an employee; I am a business owner. Most of my friends who previously were 'employees' are now buying into partnership, hence my comment about at some point the peon becomes the business owner. I don't think there's anything wrong with my industry, but if there were and I whistle blew, what would that mean for my friends who are partners? What would it mean for their finances and lifestyles?

While I obviously hold your opinions on this matter in spectacular contempt, I have yet to insult you.  And am not going to.  I think your continuing to believe what you do is an insult to yourself far worse than I can hope to level.  Perhaps too much of an insult, really.  Being an employer instead of an employee with those opinions - especially concerning morality and legality - has its own interesting and potentially worse hazards.  But as you probably don't care and won't listen there's no point in continuing. 

Bloop Bloop

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2019, 05:33:13 PM »
Fair enough, but at the end of the day I will be retired early with a happy family and a nice car in my garage and a good lifestyle and I have no stains on my conscience. Isn't that what MMM is about?

RelaxedGal

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2019, 10:16:13 AM »
In any case, other than blatant fraud/criminality, which you should report immediately (and therefore would not be relevant to someone's FIRE date), how do you even objectively know whether an employer is corrupt? If you're a little employee, you are not privy to the real machinations of the company and therefore you have no objectivity. What seems like corruption to a little fish might just be legal business practice within the industry.

About once/year my company does something that makes me ask "Is this bad enough to quit over?"  Like selling to people who can't afford the product.  It makes me feel skeevy, like payday loans - fills a need, but is it really in peoples' best interest?  This year we are changing our privacy policy to allow us to sell our existing customers' contact info to third parties, because our creditors want to see more fee income on the books.  Totally legal, common business practice, but what a slimy thing to do.

From around the web here's an example of someone who did think a legal business decision was worth quitting over:
Liz O'Sullivan left Clarifai over military use of AI, as a conscientious objector
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/722909218/when-technology-can-be-used-to-build-weapons-some-workers-take-a-stand

EricL

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Re: If you have fuck you money, say fuck you
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2019, 02:05:00 PM »
In any case, other than blatant fraud/criminality, which you should report immediately (and therefore would not be relevant to someone's FIRE date), how do you even objectively know whether an employer is corrupt? If you're a little employee, you are not privy to the real machinations of the company and therefore you have no objectivity. What seems like corruption to a little fish might just be legal business practice within the industry.

About once/year my company does something that makes me ask "Is this bad enough to quit over?"  Like selling to people who can't afford the product.  It makes me feel skeevy, like payday loans - fills a need, but is it really in peoples' best interest?  This year we are changing our privacy policy to allow us to sell our existing customers' contact info to third parties, because our creditors want to see more fee income on the books.  Totally legal, common business practice, but what a slimy thing to do.

From around the web here's an example of someone who did think a legal business decision was worth quitting over:
Liz O'Sullivan left Clarifai over military use of AI, as a conscientious objector
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/722909218/when-technology-can-be-used-to-build-weapons-some-workers-take-a-stand

Yes.  There is a difference between legal and moral.  Many things are quite legal that are totally immoral.  A few things are illegal but are still moral. 

Years ago I worked for one of those phone sales companies that posted ads about "Buy Stuff Cheap at Police and Sheriff Auctions" and "How to Get a Government Job" in tabloids and other BS publications.  All I had to do was receive the calls and give the pitch.  Part of the contingency pitch included getting the routing number off checks.  The books were "guaranteed or your money back" which the company honored because they were selling them for about $40 in today's money.  This was before the internet was a thing but you could get this info from libraries or the source itself for free or free plus nickels' in postage.  Pay was hourly plus commission and some salespeople made bank shilling this crap to gullible people across America.  I, however, sucked at it - three sales in my first few days where the average was 30 something a week.  I got called into the office my third day.  I called them on their BS and quit. 

The sordid truth was that I knew they were gonna fire me then or real soon anyway.  So there's a possibility that if I succeeded I might've stayed.  In my defense I became an incredibly convincing phone talker/conversationalist afterwards.  I pulled outrageous phone pranks on people with the wrong number and strung direct phone salesmen along long after they should've hung up.  I just couldn't make myself sell shit for reals.  Not even stuff that wasn't a fraud.  A week after I left the FBI came in and shut the whole operation down and good riddance. 

That's the other hazard with an immoral but legal business practice.  It may become a cornerstone of a company's income only for the laws to change.  People might not go to jail (none of the company's officers ultimately did though they paid generous lawyers fees not to) but the company's fucked out of a revenue stream.  Not to mention damage to their rep.