growing up poor

[southernhippie]

http://www.millennial-revolution.com/build/how-growing-up-poor-made-me-a-bad-ass/

This is a bitch slap to all that complain.

[going2ER]

It is a great article and shows how little you actually need to grow up happy. A number of years ago there was a study done with babies to maybe age 5? A baby with all the new plastic gadgets and technology was no more happy than the baby that regularly played with rocks and sticks. Please don't ask for a reference for this, I have no idea and it may possibly have been done before the 'net was popular. I have always been a believer that kids will accomplish more if they are not given everything.

[PtboEliz]

That's a great post, thanks for sharing. Inspiring!

[arebelspy]

Good article, thanks for sharing.

From the article:
"In all the early retiree couples we’ve met, at least one of them is always an engineer (or something closely related). And at least one of them spent some part of their childhood in poverty. Note that sometimes these traits are blended between the two people.

That’s weird, isn’t it?"

Well, we failed her test (both teachers, both raised in middle-class, not poverty).  Then again, I guess technically we didn't ER in our 30s, but at age 29 (though I was a week from turning 30).

We are outliers though, I suppose.  Many ER people were engineers or software developers (if you count that as a "computer engineer"). Brandon (MadFIentist), Pete (MMM), Jeremy (GCC), Justin (RoG).

The engineer salaries help a lot. Most teachers I know seeking FIRE won't make it until their 40s simply due to the terrible salary for teachers.

[firefamily]

I grew up in a family I thought was poor due to the old cars, fixer houses, used clothes, etc, for many years.  Now I know that my parents were actually Mustachians even though they didn't retire early (maybe they would have if they had more financial education).  I have been grateful ever since college, though, that I was raised with very low expectations for spending.  I would see my friends in college stop for gas and always emerge from the building where they payed for their gas (before pay at the pump) with snacks or beverages they bought.  I was grateful then that I had been raised going to gas stations only for gas and never even considering buying anything else there.  My parents did me a great service from all the things they DIDN'T buy me, and now it is saving me hundreds of thousands of dollars because I don't feel entitled to expensive or unnecessary stuff.

My husband grew up a little more spendy but he has become much more frugal since we got married.

Oh, and my husband and I both have engineering backgrounds, and will be retiring in the next year before age 40.  That is a very interesting theory...

[EricL]

Awesome story. But unless he retired at 25 with 3-8 peers he undercounts us by a good ways.

[Zikoris]

I guess we'll get to be outliers in yet another way - we're one "wealthy" and one "lower middle class" as far as socioeconomic backgrounds go, and both do office clerical/admin work (and not for engineering firms, either).

[pancakes]

I grew up in a family I thought was poor due to the old cars, fixer houses, used clothes, etc, for many years.  Now I know that my parents were actually Mustachians even though they didn't retire early (maybe they would have if they had more financial education).  I have been grateful ever since college, though, that I was raised with very low expectations for spending.  I would see my friends in college stop for gas and always emerge from the building where they payed for their gas (before pay at the pump) with snacks or beverages they bought.  I was grateful then that I had been raised going to gas stations only for gas and never even considering buying anything else there.  My parents did me a great service from all the things they DIDN'T buy me, and now it is saving me hundreds of thousands of dollars because I don't feel entitled to expensive or unnecessary stuff.

This sounds a lot like my childhood as well.

I had no idea how much better off my family was than my peers because we always had fewer toys, older cars and hand me down clothing. It wasn't until I was older that I understood.

It did always strike me as odd growing up that my friends who had the lastest and greatest were also taking on their parents stresses about finances. I often was told no when it came to wants but I never had to worry that we couldn't afford groceries, might get evicted, or couldn't fix the car or get new shoes when our feet got too big. I also never felt gulity about my parents spending money on indulging me and then not having money available for the aforementioned situations.

[LivlongnProsper]

DW and I sort of fit the mold. I have an engineering-esque background and she grew up being relatively poor. Like others here, looking back we didn't have new cars or a lot of fancy toys but we never went without the things we needed.

[Saskatchewstachian]

I only half fit the mold as an engineer here! Socioeconomic background though was squarely into the middle class growing up(or possibly upper middle class).

I could see the affinity for numbers having a large impact on the high levels of engineers in the FIRE camp. i.e. I have my own detailed budget and retirement savings projections showing me that FIRE is possible even before I found MMM. Where as a large portion of the population probably wouldn't even know how to calculate things like compound interest, principle remaining on mortgage, etc.

I would be interested to see if this holds true for other people such as mathematicians, economists or any other math heavy professions.

[Evgenia]

Great post. Thanks for sharing it here; doubt I'd have seen it otherwise.

We pulled off FIRE in our 30s (my husband and I were both 38 at the time), and we fit the pattern the writer describes. Both of us were engineers, and I grew up in Detroit with immigrant parents from Poland. That blog post describes much of my childhood perfectly.

By the time I was 18, living completely on my own and paying for everything (as I was reasonably expected to do), working three jobs and all that, I was simply perplexed by the behavior of my peers who racked up credit card debt and routinely asked their parents for money. I was even more surprised when their parents just handed it over.

I continue to be surprised about the lack of Creativity (the C in the author's clever CRAP acronym) I see in friends who claim they can't stand their debt or their job, and proceed to do nothing about it. This is because I grew up in an area where EVERY household had at least ONE side hustle, even the ones that were fairly comfortable. My friend's family, for instance, was considered well off because they owned a few laundromats. They had a bigger, nicer house, did not struggle, etc. Well, Mom and Ciocia (auntie) still took in ironing. Everyone around us took in sewing, or baked custom birthday cakes, or sold ceramics, or painted houses or decorative wall stencils, or did car repair on the side, or ALL of these things, in addition to their jobs, just so they could struggle a little bit less and put away a little more savings. Thank God for their example.

I most loved the part about the author's dad reminding her about family in China when she didn’t want to move. That’s an aspect of parenting that I feel has gone out the window, in the U.S. at least. On the few occasions my brother or I whined about something (which was rare, by our own and my parents’ recollections, as most of the time we knew better than to complain and add to our parents’ stress level) one or both of my parents would be all “Look. Here’s the deal.”

They didn’t constantly share adult information with us about how hard things were, but neither did they hide things or lie to us. They leveled with us when it mattered, and even said things that — by today’s standards — would probably earn them a visit from Child and Family Services: “You’re NOT the most important person in this equation” and “Your family still in Poland has it a lot worse than you, so you need to be quiet.”

[mm1970]

Thanks for sharing, that was fantastic!  I enjoyed it.  It makes me think about my boys, and how to raise them.

My husband and I are both engineers in our 40s.  We aren't FIRE, but if we sold our house in CA and moved...almost anywhere else, we would be.

I grew up poor.  So, hanging laundry, sewing, cooking, gardening, canning, home improvement...I was exposed to all that.  (I suck at gardening, but have, at times, hemmed pants for a fee.)
My husband grew up middle class. But they had to save for things.  So he learned home improvement and building furniture.

And engineering to us does mean we really don't care what others think.

How to raise my upper-middle class boys?  Well, just do our best I guess.  Teach them to be creative, to do chores.  To save.  This type of article is just what I need when I think of upgrading my home.

[MrsPete]

In all the early retiree couples we’ve met, at least one of them is always an engineer (or something closely related). And at least one of them spent some part of their childhood in poverty. Note that sometimes these traits are blended between the two people.

Um, yeah, you just described me and my husband.  Interesting. 

I grew up poor, but not poor on the level that's described in the article.  I mean, I always had clean running water and never played in medical waste, but -- yeah -- the kids at school made sure I knew my clothes were substandard, we definitely learned how to scrounge for food and conserve resources as children, and -- like the author -- I had no fall-back plan in college, no parents to whom I could return for financial help.  However, unlike the author, we were not enveloped in a home so blissful that we failed to recognize that we were poor.  We were not in a country song.  We knew. 

If I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't want to -- it was miserable -- but, yes, I did learn some good lessons from it.  However, I also carry some scars.  I have a deep-seated need for financial security that kids who grew up "safe" don't have, and often I still have trouble spending money on myself (if you saw my wardrobe, you'd understand -- I am noticeably worst-dressed at work).  I feel the need to justify any expense other than groceries and utility bills.  I definitely tend towards "safe" choices financially, even when the opportunity for greater profit exists.  I'm better than I was when I was in my 20s.   

[SisterX]

I see a lot of what she said in my own situation. Husband is an engineering type and while I didn't grow up in extreme poverty I definitely grew up with a mindset of needing to save and needing to be careful with money. My parents were always there with the adage, "If you want that, work hard and save your money." It pissed me off as a kid and now I'm SO ready to use it on my own one day!

It's actually driving me crazy that my parents have become super un-Mustachian now that they're old and retired. I want to be like, "Stahp! Just stahp!"

I hope we can instill these same qualities (creativity, all that) in our daughter. I don't worry about us giving her too much, but the grandparents are so ready to provide any whim she might have. That stuffed animal caught her eye? Let's buy it and never mind that the parents have already said she's got more stuffed animals than she ever plays with, that she doesn't tend to care about them for more than 15 minutes, and they don't have enough space for more toys!

[meghan88]

In all the early retiree couples we’ve met, at least one of them is always an engineer (or something closely related). And at least one of them spent some part of their childhood in poverty. Note that sometimes these traits are blended between the two people.

Um, yeah, you just described me and my husband.  Interesting. 

I grew up poor, but not poor on the level that's described in the article.  I mean, I always had clean running water and never played in medical waste, but -- yeah -- the kids at school made sure I knew my clothes were substandard, we definitely learned how to scrounge for food and conserve resources as children, and -- like the author -- I had no fall-back plan in college, no parents to whom I could return for financial help.  However, unlike the author, we were not enveloped in a home so blissful that we failed to recognize that we were poor.  We were not in a country song.  We knew. 

If I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't want to -- it was miserable -- but, yes, I did learn some good lessons from it.  However, I also carry some scars.  I have a deep-seated need for financial security that kids who grew up "safe" don't have, and often I still have trouble spending money on myself (if you saw my wardrobe, you'd understand -- I am noticeably worst-dressed at work).  I feel the need to justify any expense other than groceries and utility bills.  I definitely tend towards "safe" choices financially, even when the opportunity for greater profit exists.  I'm better than I was when I was in my 20s.   

+1 re. the miserable situation growing up, and the scars.  The best thing my father did for me was to tell me (repeatedly) that I had to take care of myself because no one would ever take care of me.  He was a miserable SOB, but quite correct on that point.

I also tend to stick to the safe investments.  I am also generally worst-dressed but I do my best by constantly mending what I have, and supplementing every now and then with what I can dig up on the clearance racks ($8 tops, $15 jeans).

Mrs Pete, do you bike, or run, or do any other exercise?  My "thing" to be good to myself is to make sure I'm in shape.  I'd rather be in shape and badly-dressed than have a whole bunch of nastiness under the nice clothes.

It's one thing to avoid spending on clothes, but exercise is free, and it's vital, and living well and in good health is the best revenge.  I "give" myself 2-3 measly hours a week to do weight/endurance training (accomplished with minimal equipment and body weight exercises), and I walk and bike everywhere in addition to that.  I used to feel deprived / like I was punishing myself until I found this forum, which allowed me to put a new label on it:  BADASS.

Though I still lie awake at night worrying that the world is coming to an end, that the environment has passed the point of no return, that the economy will collapse, that I will be homeless and destitute sooner than I think ... etc. etc.

[SisterX]

In all the early retiree couples we’ve met, at least one of them is always an engineer (or something closely related). And at least one of them spent some part of their childhood in poverty. Note that sometimes these traits are blended between the two people.

Um, yeah, you just described me and my husband.  Interesting. 

I grew up poor, but not poor on the level that's described in the article.  I mean, I always had clean running water and never played in medical waste, but -- yeah -- the kids at school made sure I knew my clothes were substandard, we definitely learned how to scrounge for food and conserve resources as children, and -- like the author -- I had no fall-back plan in college, no parents to whom I could return for financial help.  However, unlike the author, we were not enveloped in a home so blissful that we failed to recognize that we were poor.  We were not in a country song.  We knew. 

If I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't want to -- it was miserable -- but, yes, I did learn some good lessons from it.  However, I also carry some scars.  I have a deep-seated need for financial security that kids who grew up "safe" don't have, and often I still have trouble spending money on myself (if you saw my wardrobe, you'd understand -- I am noticeably worst-dressed at work).  I feel the need to justify any expense other than groceries and utility bills.  I definitely tend towards "safe" choices financially, even when the opportunity for greater profit exists.  I'm better than I was when I was in my 20s.   

+1 re. the miserable situation growing up, and the scars.  The best thing my father did for me was to tell me (repeatedly) that I had to take care of myself because no one would ever take care of me.  He was a miserable SOB, but quite correct on that point.

I also tend to stick to the safe investments.  I am also generally worst-dressed but I do my best by constantly mending what I have, and supplementing every now and then with what I can dig up on the clearance racks ($8 tops, $15 jeans).

Mrs Pete, do you bike, or run, or do any other exercise?  My "thing" to be good to myself is to make sure I'm in shape.  I'd rather be in shape and badly-dressed than have a whole bunch of nastiness under the nice clothes.

It's one thing to avoid spending on clothes, but exercise is free, and it's vital, and living well and in good health is the best revenge.  I "give" myself 2-3 measly hours a week to do weight/endurance training (accomplished with minimal equipment and body weight exercises), and I walk and bike everywhere in addition to that.  I used to feel deprived / like I was punishing myself until I found this forum, which allowed me to put a new label on it:  BADASS.

Though I still lie awake at night worrying that the world is coming to an end, that the environment has passed the point of no return, that the economy will collapse, that I will be homeless and destitute sooner than I think ... etc. etc.

I understand both of you. I'm sitting here in a top which was "ruined" in the dryer, but which I saved with a cheap bit of ribbon to cover up what was torn/shredded. (And looks pretty cute now!) My husband, just the other day, accused me of always being concerned with the bottom line, with success. How do I explain to someone the insecurity I felt as a child, when that person never experienced that? On the surface I had all the advantages he did, but it was always with an undertone that my parents were doing something special for me, that I had to earn it. And I always, always had to keep in mind that things are expensive, and my parents only had so many resources to go around for four children. In many ways, I had it much better than my older brothers did too.
But on the surface, people will see the big house I grew up in, filled with nice stuff (much of which was inherited, or procured after my brothers and I flew the coop) and never realize that there was ever insecurity.
And I, too, exercise in part to burn away that insecurity. I'm learning how to spend money on myself without (much) guilt, but it's a long process. Having pretty much all of my adulthood peppered with low income jobs and unemployment hasn't helped. I still feel guilty about dumbass (read: unnecessary) purchases I made years ago.

[meghan88]

And I, too, exercise in part to burn away that insecurity. I'm learning how to spend money on myself without (much) guilt, but it's a long process. Having pretty much all of my adulthood peppered with low income jobs and unemployment hasn't helped. I still feel guilty about dumbass (read: unnecessary) purchases I made years ago.

Awww, me too.  I still think about the dumb crap I used to buy when I was first on my own, and very, very broke.  The trick is to learn the lesson and move on, I guess.  Not easy when I think of a few truly astounding bonehead purchases ...

[MrsPete]

Mrs Pete, do you bike, or run, or do any other exercise?  ...

It's one thing to avoid spending on clothes, but exercise is free, and it's vital, and living well and in good health is the best revenge.  I "give" myself 2-3 measly hours a week to do weight/endurance training (accomplished with minimal equipment and body weight exercises), and I walk and bike everywhere in addition to that.  I used to feel deprived / like I was punishing myself until I found this forum, which allowed me to put a new label on it:  BADASS.

Though I still lie awake at night worrying that the world is coming to an end, that the environment has passed the point of no return, that the economy will collapse, that I will be homeless and destitute sooner than I think ... etc. etc.

Yes, I can relate to everything you just said!  Yes, I've been off the wagon for the last few weeks, but I do see maintaining good health as equal in importance to saving money.  I'm from a family with live-forever genes, and I want to remain healthful as long as possible.

I understand both of you. I'm sitting here in a top which was "ruined" in the dryer, but which I saved with a cheap bit of ribbon to cover up what was torn/shredded. (And looks pretty cute now!) My husband, just the other day, accused me of always being concerned with the bottom line, with success. How do I explain to someone the insecurity I felt as a child, when that person never experienced that? On the surface I had all the advantages he did, but it was always with an undertone that my parents were doing something special for me, that I had to earn it. And I always, always had to keep in mind that things are expensive, and my parents only had so many resources to go around for four children. In many ways, I had it much better than my older brothers did too.
But on the surface, people will see the big house I grew up in, filled with nice stuff (much of which was inherited, or procured after my brothers and I flew the coop) and never realize that there was ever insecurity.
And I, too, exercise in part to burn away that insecurity. I'm learning how to spend money on myself without (much) guilt, but it's a long process. Having pretty much all of my adulthood peppered with low income jobs and unemployment hasn't helped. I still feel guilty about dumbass (read: unnecessary) purchases I made years ago.

I am often surprised on this board by how similar we are (just make it five kids in my family, and I'm the hard-working, unappreciated oldest).  Yes, to look at my parents' house now you'd think, "Wow, they must've been great parents.  How fortunate their children must be."  And, yeah, we occasionally had those moments -- my parents weren't idiots; they just had too few resources for a family of seven, but those moments were punctuated by months of bread for dinner, no hot water, pulling your jeans down as far as possible so no one'd notice they were too short -- paired, of course, with shoes with holes in the sole, splitting a round of antibiotics between two siblings, pretending you didn't care about football game and dance because you didn't have the $1 to admit you to both events, and other such miseries.  But, like your parents, they were able to put together this solid middle-class household only after we children had left. 

[MrsPete]

And I, too, exercise in part to burn away that insecurity. I'm learning how to spend money on myself without (much) guilt, but it's a long process. Having pretty much all of my adulthood peppered with low income jobs and unemployment hasn't helped. I still feel guilty about dumbass (read: unnecessary) purchases I made years ago.

Awww, me too.  I still think about the dumb crap I used to buy when I was first on my own, and very, very broke.  The trick is to learn the lesson and move on, I guess.  Not easy when I think of a few truly astounding bonehead purchases ...

Yeah, but at the same time I look at the $75 unfinished wood bookcase and the $125 kitchen table that were among my first-ever "adult purchases", and I realize that I'm STILL using those items 25 years later.  It's a lesson in buying classic quality items.

[meghan88]

And I, too, exercise in part to burn away that insecurity. I'm learning how to spend money on myself without (much) guilt, but it's a long process. Having pretty much all of my adulthood peppered with low income jobs and unemployment hasn't helped. I still feel guilty about dumbass (read: unnecessary) purchases I made years ago.

Awww, me too.  I still think about the dumb crap I used to buy when I was first on my own, and very, very broke.  The trick is to learn the lesson and move on, I guess.  Not easy when I think of a few truly astounding bonehead purchases ...

Yeah, but at the same time I look at the $75 unfinished wood bookcase and the $125 kitchen table that were among my first-ever "adult purchases", and I realize that I'm STILL using those items 25 years later.  It's a lesson in buying classic quality items.

Amen to that.  I used to scour the garage sales every weekend, buy beat-up stuff or get it free at curbside, fix it up, then either keep it or sell it for more if/when I found some better, and on and on it went.  I figure I've rescued a ton of stuff from landfill over the years, and made some $ on it too.  It was very satisfying ... maybe in some way it helps make up for the shitty investment decisions I've made over the years  :)

Old habits die hard though, and I still pull bottles out of the recycling to take back for deposit.  Penny-wise and pound-foolish, that's me ...

[Evgenia]

However, I also carry some scars.  I have a deep-seated need for financial security that kids who grew up "safe" don't have, and often I still have trouble spending money on myself (if you saw my wardrobe, you'd understand -- I am noticeably worst-dressed at work).  I feel the need to justify any expense other than groceries and utility bills.  I definitely tend towards "safe" choices financially, even when the opportunity for greater profit exists.  I'm better than I was when I was in my 20s.   

Oh, you got me right through the heart with this one. I also have some weird baggage that I've worked hard to change, but am still not completely over. One of those things, for example, is dried beans: If we don't have a few pounds of dried beans in the house, I am anxious beyond all reason. I just feel better if they're there, and I can see them (and we do eat them). It initially made my husband call me "Depression Baby," but then he embraced it one year and got me high-end dried beans as a stocking stuffer. We try.

[Bracken_Joy]

I grew up in a family I thought was poor due to the old cars, fixer houses, used clothes, etc, for many years.  Now I know that my parents were actually Mustachians even though they didn't retire early (maybe they would have if they had more financial education).  I have been grateful ever since college, though, that I was raised with very low expectations for spending.  I would see my friends in college stop for gas and always emerge from the building where they payed for their gas (before pay at the pump) with snacks or beverages they bought.  I was grateful then that I had been raised going to gas stations only for gas and never even considering buying anything else there.  My parents did me a great service from all the things they DIDN'T buy me, and now it is saving me hundreds of thousands of dollars because I don't feel entitled to expensive or unnecessary stuff.

This sounds a lot like my childhood as well.

I had no idea how much better off my family was than my peers because we always had fewer toys, older cars and hand me down clothing. It wasn't until I was older that I understood.

It did always strike me as odd growing up that my friends who had the lastest and greatest were also taking on their parents stresses about finances. I often was told no when it came to wants but I never had to worry that we couldn't afford groceries, might get evicted, or couldn't fix the car or get new shoes when our feet got too big. I also never felt gulity about my parents spending money on indulging me and then not having money available for the aforementioned situations.

This is pretty interesting to me. We're not RE, but we did slaughter some student loans and buy a house, all within the last year. Oh, and a car for cash. Same year.

Anyway, DH is an engineer. And while I didn't grow up poor (we actually were quite well off, I now know), my dad was miserly and my mom was frugal (on some things). And parts of my childhood were living with cousins, who are poor.

Fascinating so far how well this theory is holding for so many people, although I'm sure there's a self selection bias at play here.

[Radagast]

Hmmm yup. I'm an engineer and DW grew up in a Chinese village similar to but much poorer than the author described. Medical waste? Who can afford that garbage!

[MrsPete]

However, I also carry some scars.  I have a deep-seated need for financial security that kids who grew up "safe" don't have, and often I still have trouble spending money on myself (if you saw my wardrobe, you'd understand -- I am noticeably worst-dressed at work).  I feel the need to justify any expense other than groceries and utility bills.  I definitely tend towards "safe" choices financially, even when the opportunity for greater profit exists.  I'm better than I was when I was in my 20s.   

Oh, you got me right through the heart with this one. I also have some weird baggage that I've worked hard to change, but am still not completely over. One of those things, for example, is dried beans: If we don't have a few pounds of dried beans in the house, I am anxious beyond all reason. I just feel better if they're there, and I can see them (and we do eat them). It initially made my husband call me "Depression Baby," but then he embraced it one year and got me high-end dried beans as a stocking stuffer. We try.

Oh, I didn't mean to hurt you!  Don't waste any worry on me -- I'm eons ahead of teenaged me.  I can, however, relate to the dried beans thing.  That's not my specific thing, but I always have loads of pantry items on hand.  Plus toilet paper. 

[VladTheImpaler]

I know I'm going to get flamed for saying this but I finally figured out that all the happy men married poorer women. For example, an upper middle class guy would marry a lower middle class girl. These pairs always seem to be the best at being teammates and their kids always seem well rounded without having a bratty or entitled attitude.
I wasted a lot of time hunting for unicorns in my 20's (super model looks with a great head on her shoulders and the desire to raise kids and keep house.) Not surprisingly, I never found one.
It is super rare or not attainable unless you also have equal attributes.
Sometimes settling is a very good thing. Men that "marry up" will pay for it.
The minute she acts like a princess, run like hell!
Finding a mate with matching life philosophies and a good temperament is soooooo much more important than money or looks.
If you cannot meet her expectations...let her go.
Happy wife=happy life

Ahhh if only I knew then what I know now.

[Metric Mouse]

Awesome story. But unless he retired at 25 with 3-8 peers he undercounts us by a good ways.

Right?