4 men with 4 very different incomes

[clarkfan1979]

I thought this was an interesting read.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/smart-living/4-men-with-4-very-different-incomes-open-up-about-the-lives-they-can-afford/ar-BBs1Cfl?li=BBnbcA0&ocid=mailsignout#page=2

[dandarc]

Agree - interesting read.

Interesting to me that rich-guy was the only one thinking in terms of assets at all - "I need $25 million to live the life I want".  All 3 others answered that question in terms of income.

[geekette]

What I found most interesting is that the two with very high incomes don't think taxes are too high.  I doubt the guy making $7/hour as a bar back is paying any income tax, yet, he says taxes are too high. 

[okits]

What I found most interesting is that the two with very high incomes don't think taxes are too high.  I doubt the guy making $7/hour as a bar back is paying any income tax, yet, he says taxes are too high.

I agree.  I think, when you make low-average wages, you assume the couple hundred/couple thousand bucks you pay in taxes is what funds infrastructure, government services, social programs, etc.  If you start to make bigger bucks (or someone close to you does), you see the mid-five figure tax bill (or six figure tax bill) and then realize that the few thousand you used to pay actually pays for nearly squat.  The taxpayers each forking over $40k a year (or $400k) are who is really paying for everything.  When you only make $40k a year (or $20k a year) you can't really picture someone paying your whole gross income (and more) as tax, but yes, some people do (and thank goodness if they're happy to do it.)

I liked how each guy rated himself as happy/very happy.  Even the guy living at the poverty line.  Each had goals, optimism for the future, and obviously found something to enjoy in his life today. 

[sol]

When you only make $40k a year (or $20k a year) you can't really picture someone paying your whole gross income (and more) as tax

The past several years, my federal income tax bill has been a larger dollar figure than the entirety of my former income as a graduate student living on stipend.  I've been on both sides of that coin, and neither one is pretty. 

Still, I much prefer my current life of paying that amount in taxes to my former life of only earning that amount and paying zero taxes.  My top ramen consumption is WAY down since then.

[Freedomin5]

When you make $1,000,000 a year, paying several thousand in tax doesn't really affect your lifestyle in any way if you're living relatively frugally. If you only make $20,000, even a few hundred dollars will hurt.

In China, I pay a flat rate tax of 20% regardless of how much I earn. I can say it was a lot harder for me to part with my 1000rmb when I was only earning 5000rmb, than it is now for me to part with 10,000rmb.

[okits]

When you make $1,000,000 a year, paying several thousand in tax doesn't really affect your lifestyle in any way if you're living relatively frugally. If you only make $20,000, even a few hundred dollars will hurt.

In China, I pay a flat rate tax of 20% regardless of how much I earn. I can say it was a lot harder for me to part with my 1000rmb when I was only earning 5000rmb, than it is now for me to part with 10,000rmb.

I understand your point, but for the guy earning $20k in the story, he is receiving $4800 a year in food stamps.  Likely his income-based government benefits > his income taxes.  He effectively has a negative income tax rate. 

If his statement means he thinks taxes (in general) are too high, okay.  If he is saying his taxes are too high, I'd like to hear more of his thought process behind that, because he gets back every tax dollar that's deducted from his pay, plus additional subsidies beyond that.  Income-based taxes and income-based social assistance are related.

[Squirrel away]

Very interesting.

[music lover]

The guy with the lowest income has $3000 in outstanding parking tickets and his vehicle just got towed, so it is likely that there are plenty of other poor choices we don't know about than have landed him in his position.

[greaper007]

I bet when he says taxes, he means everything taken out of his paycheck.  Social Security, medical, whatever.    I doubt he's looking at his year end tax bill post refund.    Lots of people lump all deductions on their paycheck together.

[slugline]

Demetrius the bar-back probably pays very little in income tax and/or property tax (indirectly via his landlord), but someone at a low income level might still feel the sting of sales taxes and government fees more.

[nereo]

for some reason this stood out to me:

Do you keep a budget
Yes, I'm very organized with it.  Overall, my fixed expenses are about $7,000 a month.  They include rent and about $1,000 a month for transportation, $180 a month to the cleaning lady, $200 for gas for the vehicle, and a handful of little things - $300 a month for Netflix, Pandora, Skype, subscriptions like that... about $200 a week [on groceries]

He didn't list his rent, but he listed about $2k worth of expenses and says he spends $7k.  Curious on what... exactly... 
Also - how many friggen subscriptions can a person have to total $300/month?

[2Birds1Stone]

Interesting article. I too paid more in Fed tax last year than my total spending -_-

I would much rather that be the case than making $7/hr.

[Fred2004]

for some reason this stood out to me:

Do you keep a budget
Yes, I'm very organized with it.  Overall, my fixed expenses are about $7,000 a month.  They include rent and about $1,000 a month for transportation, $180 a month to the cleaning lady, $200 for gas for the vehicle, and a handful of little things - $300 a month for Netflix, Pandora, Skype, subscriptions like that... about $200 a week [on groceries]

He didn't list his rent, but he listed about $2k worth of expenses and says he spends $7k.  Curious on what... exactly... 
Also - how many friggen subscriptions can a person have to total $300/month?

porn...lots of porn!!!

[MrsCoolCat]

Following. I have to sympathize with the guy with the boot tickets. If you're that much in the hole already it's pretty hard to get out. Not saying he didn't make bad decisions but like who's he gonna get that money from? It's not like the credit card companies will lend him money and if they did it would be like 25%+ in interest...

[bobechs]

Yeah, I knew right off the poorest guy was gonna draw a lot of hate around here. 

[Ryo]

Well the poor guy is getting "hate" because of poor decision making, not because he's poor.  Although it seems to be a vicious cycle in this guy's case. 

The guy making $250,000 seems to be the quintessential consumer sucka.  His income may very well keep up with his lifestyle though, so it might work out for him.  Or then again, it might not.

The rich guy is clearly the most level headed.  The figures he bandies about are obviously level or two higher than most Mustachians would deem sufficient, but he's approaching it all with the same mindset.  I like that he's trying to increase family time and to also trying to ensure his kids get the right opportunities while not getting spoiled like typical rich kids.

[frooglepoodle]

Interesting read. Did it jump out to anyone else that the $25M figure the rich guy gave for how much he'd need is 25x current income/4% SWR?

[undercover]

Rich guy has arbitrary goals that don't make him any happier, says he wants to do things that he could actually do right now (how much debt could his parents possibly have!?)

Being "rich" is not only relative on a numerical level (your net worth or income compared to others) but also on a personal level. If you're making $1M a year but feel like you need to be making more, you'll always consider yourself poor (which is what matters - how YOU see yourself). Dude is just in an endless psychological trap of accumulation and it's sad really.

If you "only" make $10k a year and were spending $12k every year and then go to spending $8k (and you have trained your brain to only want what an $8k lifestyle can afford), suddenly you're rich! You have more than enough money to buy everything you need/want. We're all too caught up in comparing ourselves to others when we really need to be looking inside.

Rich guy honestly seems like most of the people on this forum: continuing to work (working strictly to accumulate, there's nothing wrong with "working" itself) until they hit that "magic" number, rather than just learning to consume less and less.

[Fuzzy Buttons]

I was bored, so I filled it out myself.  Not sure why - I'm not very mustachian. 

$75,000 Per Year - Fuzzy Buttons, 45

Location: Midwest, LCOL

Occupation: Software Engineer

Family status: Single, no children

Homeowner? Renter? Homeowner

Do you keep a budget? Not specifically, but I have a general monthly guideline.  Mostly I find that I avoid a lot of optional spending by just asking myself if I would really improve my life by spending money on whatever is currently drawing my interest.  Most of the time, I find the answer is "no". 

What's a weekly grocery bill for you? $120 - but I go out to eat a lot.  It's my biggest overspending category.

One thing your family needs but can't afford: There's nothing that I need that I can't afford. I'm very fortunate.

One thing you want but can't afford: I'd like to be at FI, so that I wouldn't be depending on the largesse of my employer for my future.  But if we're talking about more concrete "things", then I'd say that my girlfriend and I cancelled plans for a trip this summer because I needed to replace the roof on my house last year and I'm paying that off instead.

The last thing you bought that required serious planning: I'd say the roof. Took several estimates and a bit of research before deciding on a company to go with.  It was financed with a HELOC, since I don't keep a large amount of cash as an emergency fund .

Do you have credit cards? I have one credit card.

How much debt are you carrying now? Around 45k - all mortgage related.

Saving for retirement? Yes.  I maxxed out 401(k) and an IRA the last two years, and plan to do so again this year.  I was less focused before that, but I've always put at least 15% away.

At what age would you like to retire? 55.  I'll reach my stash goal sometime between then and 60 at current rates.  Don't know as I'll quit my job, but being FI will allow me to focus more on what gives me a sense of purpose and less on what gives me a paycheck.

College plans for your kids? No kids.  I have one niece and one nephew, but they're pretty set.  I might contribute some to them if it looks like they need the help later.  They're good kids. 

Looking at your current career prospects, how much money do you think you'll be earning in ten years' time?  The same amount.  Salaries don't really go up all that much in your later career unless you are running your own business, which is something that has never appealed to me.

How happy are you on any given day, on a scale of one to ten? Eight.  I am regularly aware of how fortunate I am to be in as good a position as I am.

How often do you worry about money? Once a month or so.  I'm confident I've got everything on a good path now, but I was laid off from three jobs in two years during the recession.  So, I'm very aware that corporate employment is something that can vanish quickly.  I'm also approaching my 50s, and age discrimination can be a real concern in a tech field like mine.  That's why I'm working toward FI in the mid-50s.  I might find early retirement is something that gets forced on me.

How much money do you think you'd need to have the life you want? Today, 1.2 million.  That's based on $48k per year pre-tax and the fact that I wouldn't have much SS to look forward to if I retired now.  But the number needed gets lower as I get closer to retirement and my SS basis gets higher.  The goal is $960k at 55, or $840k at 60.

Do you think your taxes are too high?  Nope.  I'm able to defer all of my 25% bracket income through a combination of 401(k), IRA, and HSA - so my income taxes aren't very high at all.  And I plan to make good use of SS and Medicare in the future, so I don't mind the payroll taxes at all. 

[NonprofitER]

for some reason this stood out to me:

Do you keep a budget
Yes, I'm very organized with it.  Overall, my fixed expenses are about $7,000 a month.  They include rent and about $1,000 a month for transportation, $180 a month to the cleaning lady, $200 for gas for the vehicle, and a handful of little things - $300 a month for Netflix, Pandora, Skype, subscriptions like that... about $200 a week [on groceries]

He didn't list his rent, but he listed about $2k worth of expenses and says he spends $7k.  Curious on what... exactly... 
Also - how many friggen subscriptions can a person have to total $300/month?

porn...lots of porn!!!

Wasn't he a real estate agent? I assume the subscriptions have a lot to do with MLS access, professional fees, etc. which could certainly add up to a few hundred a month.

[Warlord1986]

The only one who seemed to know what was up is the guy who made $53,000 a year. He tried to keep his credit card charges low, and he saved for retirement. He could do some things differently, but he seems like a smart cookie who isn't too far from the path of mustachianism.

The other three were either on the consumer treadmill of misery, or just bad at life.

[nereo]

for some reason this stood out to me:

Do you keep a budget
Yes, I'm very organized with it.  Overall, my fixed expenses are about $7,000 a month.  They include rent and about $1,000 a month for transportation, $180 a month to the cleaning lady, $200 for gas for the vehicle, and a handful of little things - $300 a month for Netflix, Pandora, Skype, subscriptions like that... about $200 a week [on groceries]

He didn't list his rent, but he listed about $2k worth of expenses and says he spends $7k.  Curious on what... exactly... 
Also - how many friggen subscriptions can a person have to total $300/month?

porn...lots of porn!!!

Wasn't he a real estate agent? I assume the subscriptions have a lot to do with MLS access, professional fees, etc. which could certainly add up to a few hundred a month.

Quite possibly.  I just thought it a bit strange that someone would say they were "very organized" with their budget and then proceeded to list only ~18% of their monthly expenses.  Call me a bullet counter - I'd just like to know what this budget is.  Regarding the fees - same deal.  He said he spends ~$300/mo on fees, and then he lists about 10% of what would add up to 'about $300'.

[prognastat]

for some reason this stood out to me:

Do you keep a budget
Yes, I'm very organized with it.  Overall, my fixed expenses are about $7,000 a month.  They include rent and about $1,000 a month for transportation, $180 a month to the cleaning lady, $200 for gas for the vehicle, and a handful of little things - $300 a month for Netflix, Pandora, Skype, subscriptions like that... about $200 a week [on groceries]

He didn't list his rent, but he listed about $2k worth of expenses and says he spends $7k.  Curious on what... exactly... 
Also - how many friggen subscriptions can a person have to total $300/month?

porn...lots of porn!!!

Wasn't he a real estate agent? I assume the subscriptions have a lot to do with MLS access, professional fees, etc. which could certainly add up to a few hundred a month.

Quite possibly.  I just thought it a bit strange that someone would say they were "very organized" with their budget and then proceeded to list only ~18% of their monthly expenses.  Call me a bullet counter - I'd just like to know what this budget is.  Regarding the fees - same deal.  He said he spends ~$300/mo on fees, and then he lists about 10% of what would add up to 'about $300'.

My guess would likely be 2 decent sized car payments would get a lot closer to his monthly expenses and not all that unlikely.

[nereo]

for some reason this stood out to me:

Do you keep a budget
Yes, I'm very organized with it.  Overall, my fixed expenses are about $7,000 a month.  They include rent and about $1,000 a month for transportation, $180 a month to the cleaning lady, $200 for gas for the vehicle, and a handful of little things - $300 a month for Netflix, Pandora, Skype, subscriptions like that... about $200 a week [on groceries]

He didn't list his rent, but he listed about $2k worth of expenses and says he spends $7k.  Curious on what... exactly... 
Also - how many friggen subscriptions can a person have to total $300/month?

porn...lots of porn!!!

Wasn't he a real estate agent? I assume the subscriptions have a lot to do with MLS access, professional fees, etc. which could certainly add up to a few hundred a month.

Quite possibly.  I just thought it a bit strange that someone would say they were "very organized" with their budget and then proceeded to list only ~18% of their monthly expenses.  Call me a bullet counter - I'd just like to know what this budget is.  Regarding the fees - same deal.  He said he spends ~$300/mo on fees, and then he lists about 10% of what would add up to 'about $300'.

My guess would likely be 2 decent sized car payments would get a lot closer to his monthly expenses and not all that unlikely.

then what's the $1,000 in transportation costs for?  Just plane tix and taxis?

[prognastat]

for some reason this stood out to me:

Do you keep a budget
Yes, I'm very organized with it.  Overall, my fixed expenses are about $7,000 a month.  They include rent and about $1,000 a month for transportation, $180 a month to the cleaning lady, $200 for gas for the vehicle, and a handful of little things - $300 a month for Netflix, Pandora, Skype, subscriptions like that... about $200 a week [on groceries]

He didn't list his rent, but he listed about $2k worth of expenses and says he spends $7k.  Curious on what... exactly... 
Also - how many friggen subscriptions can a person have to total $300/month?

porn...lots of porn!!!

Wasn't he a real estate agent? I assume the subscriptions have a lot to do with MLS access, professional fees, etc. which could certainly add up to a few hundred a month.

Quite possibly.  I just thought it a bit strange that someone would say they were "very organized" with their budget and then proceeded to list only ~18% of their monthly expenses.  Call me a bullet counter - I'd just like to know what this budget is.  Regarding the fees - same deal.  He said he spends ~$300/mo on fees, and then he lists about 10% of what would add up to 'about $300'.

My guess would likely be 2 decent sized car payments would get a lot closer to his monthly expenses and not all that unlikely.

then what's the $1,000 in transportation costs for?  Just plane tix and taxis?

Insurance, gas, tolls, taxi. They might not have car payments or they might be included with the transportation costs. However I'm not able to think of an easy way to explain the massive amount of extra expenses. Even after accounting for all the expenses mentioned there are still $3120. Also the way it is written it seems even gas might not be included in the transportation cost so I am not sure what he would and wouldn't include, either that or he is counting it twice.

In general it sounds like he doesn't really pay that much attention to his spending or doesn't want to share what he is spending it on.

[aspiringnomad]

The only one who seemed to know what was up is the guy who made $53,000 a year. He tried to keep his credit card charges low, and he saved for retirement. He could do some things differently, but he seems like a smart cookie who isn't too far from the path of mustachianism.

The other three were either on the consumer treadmill of misery, or just bad at life.

Damn, so judgy. I thought all had a good outlook on life, and if their happiness numbers are to be believed, none of them are miserable. Mustachianism isn't for everyone and not everyone wants in on the cult; the richer guys seemed like they genuinely aren't interested in retirement. The poorest guy should learn from some of the expensive mistakes he's made, and hopefully he will.

[Warlord1986]

The only one who seemed to know what was up is the guy who made $53,000 a year. He tried to keep his credit card charges low, and he saved for retirement. He could do some things differently, but he seems like a smart cookie who isn't too far from the path of mustachianism.

The other three were either on the consumer treadmill of misery, or just bad at life.

Damn, so judgy. I thought all had a good outlook on life, and if their happiness numbers are to be believed, none of them are miserable. Mustachianism isn't for everyone and not everyone wants in on the cult; the richer guys seemed like they genuinely aren't interested in retirement. The poorest guy should learn from some of the expensive mistakes he's made, and hopefully he will.

The happiness numbers are self-reported. Nobody is actually going to admit they are unhappy.

In my experience, people who are bad at life continue to be bad at life. Maybe he will learn from his mistakes, but I'm not holding my breath.

This is a forum dedicated to frugality, so I looked at the article from that point of view and formed an opinion based on that. Whether they are interested in retirement or not, the rich guys are on a consumerist treadmill.

[notarealdoctor]

The only one who seemed to know what was up is the guy who made $53,000 a year. He tried to keep his credit card charges low, and he saved for retirement. He could do some things differently, but he seems like a smart cookie who isn't too far from the path of mustachianism.

The other three were either on the consumer treadmill of misery, or just bad at life.

Damn, so judgy. I thought all had a good outlook on life, and if their happiness numbers are to be believed, none of them are miserable. Mustachianism isn't for everyone and not everyone wants in on the cult; the richer guys seemed like they genuinely aren't interested in retirement. The poorest guy should learn from some of the expensive mistakes he's made, and hopefully he will.

The happiness numbers are self-reported. Nobody is actually going to admit they are unhappy.

In my experience, people who are bad at life continue to be bad at life. Maybe he will learn from his mistakes, but I'm not holding my breath.

This is a forum dedicated to frugality, so I looked at the article from that point of view and formed an opinion based on that. Whether they are interested in retirement or not, the rich guys are on a consumerist treadmill.

It's true that none of them are really that mustachian, but all of them could benefit from some more mustachian principles, regardless of their current state.

It's really tough to know how to take the happiness numbers. I think plenty of people might be willing to admit being unhappy, but the structure and content of the survey and the poorly defined scale definitely don't lend themselves to that. Of course, why should they? This isn't really about their happiness; that's just a piece of human interest content to make us all feel warm and fuzzy about how no matter what you make, you can be happy. It's a good distraction from bad decisions.

[robartsd]

The rich guy probably knows that he could retire now if he didn't desire the trappings of luxury he can afford. He also doesn't want to stop working when he reaches his magic number - he wants to get a high score! I don't think MMM philosophy would mean much to him (doubt cutting consumption is worth the score increase to him), but he might admit that it's a great idea for people who desire the FIRE life.

Mr 250k and Mr 53k both scream consumer sucka to me. They both think they need more to live the life they want. At least Mr 250k has his real estate empire plan to get there. I think Mr 53k would benefit most from MMM - it could turn on a light that cutting unnecessary expenses would allow him to put his resources to his most important desires.

Mr $7/hr bartender is not going anywhere. He hopes to triple his income in 10 years, but $21/hr full-time is still a bit away from the 50-60k/yr he thinks he needs. Currently he's working part-time unless $250 bi-weekly pay is after taxes and rent (30% paycheck subsidy program might be deducted from check). He needs a financial makeover.

[gardeningandgreen]

I thought it was interesting that each and every person thought they needed more money to live the life they really want. Not a single one said yea what I make is good. Maybe this is a desire to get more or better. But it seems to me that the take away from all of this is that everyone wants more.

[forummm]

I thought it was interesting that each and every person thought they needed more money to live the life they really want. Not a single one said yea what I make is good. Maybe this is a desire to get more or better. But it seems to me that the take away from all of this is that everyone wants more.

Yes. And every one of them seemed to me (from an admittedly small amount of data) to be making suboptimal spending decisions. Even the $7/hr guy spends more on food than I do. And maybe he could do without a car for awhile if he's racking up so many parking tickets. I know it is very hard to get by on that little money and don't mean to pick on him. The $1M/yr guy has much more silly financial goals if his desire is to work fewer hours. He could just decide to do it right now. There's a disconnect there. The $7/hr guy does not have that freedom and probably never will until he can get SS.

[a rose by any other name]

Demetrius the bar-back probably pays very little in income tax and/or property tax (indirectly via his landlord), but someone at a low income level might still feel the sting of sales taxes and government fees more.

He lives in Chicago, which has a sales tax that is over 10%. Groceries there are quite pricey too and also taxed.

Also, I have a feeling the living in Chicago thing is why he's had multiple parking tickets. Parking regulations in Chicago can be really confusing and the signage is not always very clear. You have snow routes that you can park in anytime unless there is 2" or more of snow (in which case you are supposed to move your car right away), snow routes that you can't park in at all November-March, roads that can be parked on anytime except for 8-9 am and 5-6 pm Monday-Friday, roads that are sometimes pay parking and sometimes not, roads that sometimes require a resident permit and sometimes don't, street cleaning/special no parking restrictions that signage is only posted a couple of days in advance for, and even some spots that have crazy combinations of multiple ones of these. Parking is hard to come by in many neighborhoods too and the distance you have to leave around fire extinguishers is quite large (but not often very clearly marked). I used to live in Chicago and may have gotten a parking ticket or two there myself.

[mm1970]

The guy with the lowest income has $3000 in outstanding parking tickets and his vehicle just got towed, so it is likely that there are plenty of other poor choices we don't know about than have landed him in his position.

It probably doesn't take much for that though. 

I remember getting a couple of $40 parking tickets in DC in the 90s because I never got a parking pass for my neighborhood.  But I had a full time job, and the parking office was only open during my work hours.  And I didn't have vacation.

I just recently got a $50 parking ticket for parking in my daycare provider's driveway, because my car was overlapping the sidewalk by a bit.  Yes.  That's a thing.  But her house is in a very congested area with packed street parking.  In fact, there are many neighborhoods in my town with very little street parking, and too many cars.

It's not much of a stretch to extrapolate that to a bigger city with more parking woes, and to a guy that probably has even LESS time to deal with those woes.  How much of that $3000 is actually tickets, and how much are late fees?

[dude]

What I found most interesting is that the two with very high incomes don't think taxes are too high.  I doubt the guy making $7/hour as a bar back is paying any income tax, yet, he says taxes are too high.

I had the same reaction.

[Guesl982374]

What I found most interesting is that the two with very high incomes don't think taxes are too high.  I doubt the guy making $7/hour as a bar back is paying any income tax, yet, he says taxes are too high.

I had the same reaction.

I had a different reaction: I figured it was the result of different outlooks on life in general. The two high income guys take control of their lives & their choices to reach their goals and minimize their focus on items outside of their control. I got the feeling that the $7/hr guy seemed to have a 'victim' mentality. I might be wrong though...

[dude]

Well the poor guy is getting "hate" because of poor decision making, not because he's poor.  Although it seems to be a vicious cycle in this guy's case. 

He's freakin' 25, fercryinoutloud!  I fell into the same traps when I was his age -- late fees, parking tickets, car towed -- I was driving with no license, no insurance and no registration to get to a construction job so I could save enough money to pay for my sophomore year of college (after spending my savings on freshman year). The prosecutor offered me a deal to pay like a $360 fine, and I was like, ok -- but then he say "today," and I was like, "how the fuck am I going to get $360 TODAY?!!  The other option was jail -- I shit you not.  I borrowed the money from friends, but it was my first real brush with our Criminal Injustice system and how disparately it treats the poor. It was part of the reason I wanted to become a lawyer.

25 years later and I am in a much different place, with high salary and $1M+ net worth.

So I see no reason to be hatin' on the 25 year old.  The guy who I think deserves the most censure is the $250k guy -- he sounds kinda douchie.

[notarealdoctor]

He's freakin' 25, fercryinoutloud!  I fell into the same traps when I was his age -- late fees, parking tickets, car towed -- I was driving with no license, no insurance and no registration to get to a construction job so I could save enough money to pay for my sophomore year of college (after spending my savings on freshman year). The prosecutor offered me a deal to pay like a $360 fine, and I was like, ok -- but then he say "today," and I was like, "how the fuck am I going to get $360 TODAY?!!  The other option was jail -- I shit you not.  I borrowed the money from friends, but it was my first real brush with our Criminal Injustice system and how disparately it treats the poor. It was part of the reason I wanted to become a lawyer.

25 years later and I am in a much different place, with high salary and $1M+ net worth.

So I see no reason to be hatin' on the 25 year old.  The guy who I think deserves the most censure is the $250k guy -- he sounds kinda douchie.

Yeah, that's a great point. Being a single dad with two small kids at 25 is a tough row to hoe too, though, and add on top of that such a small income and a mess of fines and bureaucracy. He needs help, not hate, for sure.

[music lover]

[He's freakin' 25, fercryinoutloud!  I fell into the same traps when I was his age -- late fees, parking tickets, car towed -- I was driving with no license, no insurance and no registration to get to a construction job so I could save enough money to pay for my sophomore year of college (after spending my savings on freshman year). The prosecutor offered me a deal to pay like a $360 fine, and I was like, ok -- but then he say "today," and I was like, "how the fuck am I going to get $360 TODAY?!!  The other option was jail -- I shit you not.  I borrowed the money from friends, but it was my first real brush with our Criminal Injustice system and how disparately it treats the poor. It was part of the reason I wanted to become a lawyer.

So, you drove without a license, insurance, or registration, then racked up parking tickets and finally had your car towed. All these things happened as a direct result of actions that were 100% within your control. In spite of that, when you were in court to face these charges, you were still offered a deal. What did you expect...that the court would bow at your feet and apologize because you're special?

The problem wasn't the justice system picking on the poor folk...the problem was your whiny, self-entitled attitude.

[robartsd]

The prosecutor offered me a deal to pay like a $360 fine, and I was like, ok -- but then he say "today," and I was like, "how the fuck am I going to get $360 TODAY?!!  The other option was jail -- I shit you not.  I borrowed the money from friends, but it was my first real brush with our Criminal Injustice system and how disparately it treats the poor.

It is unfortunate that for some a $360 fine is a slap on the wrist, but for others it is a major obstacle. Still, if someone does not have a personal network that they can borrow such a sum from in a case like this, they are also not likely to pay it over time either - so I can understand the requirement to come up with funds right away. I suppose it might be more fair to the poor if fines for legal infractions were based on the income and/or net worth of the offender instead of fixed dollar amounts (parking ticket: greater of 0.5% annual income or 0.01% net worth).

[randymarsh]

So, you drove without a license, insurance, or registration, then racked up parking tickets and finally had your car towed. All these things happened as a direct result of actions that were 100% within your control. In spite of that, when you were in court to face these charges, you were still offered a deal. What did you expect...that the court would bow at your feet and apologize because you're special?

The problem wasn't the justice system picking on the poor folk...the problem was your whiny, self-entitled attitude.

I think you've completely missed the point.

The problem is that we have a legal system that, apparently, lets people pay their way out of crime. A crime that's so severe evidently that it warrants jail time, but only if you don't have access to $360 on a moment's notice.

There are entire towns/municipalities almost completely funded by traffic tickets and other criminal fines. It's a perversion of the justice system. You have police not protecting the public from harm, but rather shaking down citizens. These fees are huge relative to the income of the people who must pay them and the actual collection is outsourced to 3rd party companies that add their own fees. Eventually, when you can't pay you're put in jail yet we supposedly got rid of debtors' prisons a long time ago.

[robartsd]

There are entire towns/municipalities almost completely funded by traffic tickets and other criminal fines. It's a perversion of the justice system. You have police not protecting the public from harm, but rather shaking down citizens. These fees are huge relative to the income of the people who must pay them and the actual collection is outsourced to 3rd party companies that add their own fees. Eventually, when you can't pay you're put in jail yet we supposedly got rid of debtors' prisons a long time ago.

I have felt like I was the victim of this type of shakedown with traffic tickets twice. Once was a speeding ticket as I accelerated on highway leaving a small rural town in a vehicle with out of state plates. The other was a turn signal ticket for a turn where the nearest vehicle was the cop 3 about blocks away. In the second instance I won my case, but it still cost me the use of my funds (post bail before trial date is set, not refunded for several weeks after judgement) for a couple of months, a bit of time, and an otherwise unnecessary trip to the town (about a hour's drive). The cop did not signal for me to pull over until after waiting behind me at a light for a few minutes at a signal about a quarter mile after the turn. I wonder if the cop decided to pull me over after running the plates and deciding that I was unlikely to make the trip(s) needed to fight the ticket. In hindsight, I think I probably could have succeeded in having the ticket overturned with a dispute by mail.

[sol]

it was my first real brush with our Criminal Injustice system and how disparately it treats the poor.

John Oliver did an excellent 17 minutes on this very topic:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5mwymTIJU  Well worth your time, IMO.

Basically, being poor sucks.  The US bail system puts relatively harmless offenders in Rikers for traffic tickets and lets serial killers go free because they are rich.

That piece is part of a larger series on the US criminal justice system, including bits on public defenders, mandatory minimums, bail, municipal violations, prisons, and prisoner re-entry.  The common theme?  As stated above, being poor sucks.  Here's the world's most depressing play list:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UjpmT5noto&list=PLmpAsSD_ETAlnFva2iCVHTVj9e7IYsON_

[music lover]

So, you drove without a license, insurance, or registration, then racked up parking tickets and finally had your car towed. All these things happened as a direct result of actions that were 100% within your control. In spite of that, when you were in court to face these charges, you were still offered a deal. What did you expect...that the court would bow at your feet and apologize because you're special?

The problem wasn't the justice system picking on the poor folk...the problem was your whiny, self-entitled attitude.

I think you've completely missed the point.

The problem is that we have a legal system that, apparently, lets people pay their way out of crime. A crime that's so severe evidently that it warrants jail time, but only if you don't have access to $360 on a moment's notice.

There are entire towns/municipalities almost completely funded by traffic tickets and other criminal fines. It's a perversion of the justice system. You have police not protecting the public from harm, but rather shaking down citizens. These fees are huge relative to the income of the people who must pay them and the actual collection is outsourced to 3rd party companies that add their own fees. Eventually, when you can't pay you're put in jail yet we supposedly got rid of debtors' prisons a long time ago.

No, you're missing the point. Traffic and parking tickets are the result of actions entirely within your control. If you can't afford the tickets, then don't drive or park in such a manner that puts you in a position to get tickets.

You were a victim of your own actions...no one had a personal agenda against you. In fact, no one really cares about you. Quit whining and act like an adult.

[nereo]

I think you've completely missed the point.

The problem is that we have a legal system that, apparently, lets people pay their way out of crime. A crime that's so severe evidently that it warrants jail time, but only if you don't have access to $360 on a moment's notice.

There are entire towns/municipalities almost completely funded by traffic tickets and other criminal fines. It's a perversion of the justice system. You have police not protecting the public from harm, but rather shaking down citizens. These fees are huge relative to the income of the people who must pay them and the actual collection is outsourced to 3rd party companies that add their own fees. Eventually, when you can't pay you're put in jail yet we supposedly got rid of debtors' prisons a long time ago.

No, you're missing the point. Traffic and parking tickets are the result of actions entirely within your control. If you can't afford the tickets, then don't drive or park in such a manner that puts you in a position to get tickets.

You were a victim of your own actions...no one had a personal agenda against you. In fact, no one really cares about you. Quit whining and act like an adult.

I believe the issue is the equality of the punishment.  If the punishment involves a set monetary amount - say $1,000 - that could be 50% of one person's monthly income and 0.5% of another person's monthly income.  Ergo, the same fine is not equal punishment between people of different financial means.

What compounds this inequality is that the consequence for being unable to pay is far greater than the original fine. There's no option for doing 100 hours of community service at $10/hour to pay off a $1,000 fine.  Instead they might go to jail for 30 days, causing them to loose their jobs and possibly where they live, and they permanently damage their ability to earn money in the future.

We have a justice system which recognizes ongoing pain and suffering for victims; if your boss's gross negligence causes you to loose three fingers on your right hand you are entitled not just to compensation for your medical bills but also for all of your suffering and lost earning potential for the rest of your life. On the other hand, most justice departments fail to consider that financial punishments are not equally shouldered by a working professional and a hourly wage earner.

[steviesterno]

I was reading about another country (maybe Sweden?) where fines were proportional to your income. It's how some rich dude got a $300,000 speeding ticket. Can't think of where I read it, but the object was to make the fine as much of a punishment for everyone.

[nereo]

I was reading about another country (maybe Sweden?) where fines were proportional to your income. It's how some rich dude got a $300,000 speeding ticket. Can't think of where I read it, but the object was to make the fine as much of a punishment for everyone.

We have income-based repayment plans for loans - even the IRS has a program where you can pay back-taxes over an extended period.  I think it's absurd that many municipalities have a policy of "pay now or go to jail" for non-violent offenses.
There are other possibilities - community service for those that can't pay. Complete loss of a license until they can pay, etc.

It also makes no damn sense for us, the taxpayers, to lock up people who go to jail because they can't afford their tickets.  It costs on average $250 per day to keep someone in a minimum security prison.  So... the municipality doesn't get the $1,000 fine, the individual looses 30 days of their life plus years of earning potential and the tax-payers front $7,500?  where's the logic in that?  Everyone looses.  Everyone.

[sol]

It also makes no damn sense for us, the taxpayers, to lock up people who go to jail because they can't afford their tickets.  It costs on average $250 per day to keep someone in a minimum security prison.  So... the municipality doesn't get the $1,000 fine, the individual looses 30 days of their life plus years of earning potential and the tax-payers front $7,500?  where's the logic in that?  Everyone looses.  Everyone.

But how else are we going to manage to lock up all of our black people?

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

So, you drove without a license, insurance, or registration, then racked up parking tickets and finally had your car towed. All these things happened as a direct result of actions that were 100% within your control. In spite of that, when you were in court to face these charges, you were still offered a deal. What did you expect...that the court would bow at your feet and apologize because you're special?

The problem wasn't the justice system picking on the poor folk...the problem was your whiny, self-entitled attitude.

I think you've completely missed the point.

The problem is that we have a legal system that, apparently, lets people pay their way out of crime. A crime that's so severe evidently that it warrants jail time, but only if you don't have access to $360 on a moment's notice.

There are entire towns/municipalities almost completely funded by traffic tickets and other criminal fines. It's a perversion of the justice system. You have police not protecting the public from harm, but rather shaking down citizens. These fees are huge relative to the income of the people who must pay them and the actual collection is outsourced to 3rd party companies that add their own fees. Eventually, when you can't pay you're put in jail yet we supposedly got rid of debtors' prisons a long time ago.

No, you're missing the point. Traffic and parking tickets are the result of actions entirely within your control. If you can't afford the tickets, then don't drive or park in such a manner that puts you in a position to get tickets.

You were a victim of your own actions...no one had a personal agenda against you. In fact, no one really cares about you. Quit whining and act like an adult.

"If you can't afford the tickets"--well, some people can. For the Virginia-DC commute, some businesses were offering to reimburse their employees for any HOV violation tickets so that they could drive alone in the HOV lane. So people who were lucky enough to work there or could afford the ticket, could drive there with impunity. Not at all the intention of the lanes.

[music lover]

I believe the issue is the equality of the punishment.  If the punishment involves a set monetary amount - say $1,000 - that could be 50% of one person's monthly income and 0.5% of another person's monthly income.  Ergo, the same fine is not equal punishment between people of different financial means.

So what? You still have not provided a valid reason why you should be subject to a lesser penalty than that of someone else for the same infraction. Does the grocery store charge you less for food because you have a lower income?

What compounds this inequality is that the consequence for being unable to pay is far greater than the original fine. There's no option for doing 100 hours of community service at $10/hour to pay off a $1,000 fine.  Instead they might go to jail for 30 days, causing them to loose their jobs and possibly where they live, and they permanently damage their ability to earn money in the future.

The old saying rings true: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. You, and only you are responsible to your actions.