Author Topic: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?  (Read 17355 times)

lifejoy

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Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« on: April 08, 2014, 08:01:07 PM »
I'd love to discuss it here.

It's about women and the work force.

lifejoy

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 11:07:57 PM »
Lhamo - have you read this response? http://thefeministwire.com/2013/10/17973/

So I'm only half done Lean In, but it's kind of freaking me out and making me worry that I'm not maximizing my potential :/

I'll discuss more when I'm done reading - soon!

minougray

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2014, 01:56:53 PM »
I really enjoyed it. Lots of good discussion about mentoring, leadership and life balance that would be useful for men as well. For my life, "lean in" doesn't mean working more hours to reach a better position - it means taking risks, being confident and thinking creatively. The Atlantic has an article this month that really hit home - a lot of women pass up opportunities because they believe they are not perfectly qualified, but men are more willing to dive in.
The Confidence Gap:  http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/04/the-confidence-gap/359815/

This summer I am supervising 2 interns - I hope I can be a good example to them even though I still second guess my own skills at times.

peppermint

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2014, 10:28:19 PM »
I've read both Lean In and just read the response from bell hooks.

Lean In -- I think the message was sound, but not deep enough in scope to warrant a full book about it. I feel like I gained something from it in terms of thinking about assertiveness, initiative and confidence at work. Women around me, including myself, have started using the phrase "lean in" as a catchphrase whenever we do something sort of gutsy at work, like writing an email asking for some opportunity/responsibility/perk that we might have some trepidation about. I don't think it's a bad thing at all that the concept of women being assertive at work, specifically framed as a non-negative, non-bitchy thing, has entered mass pop culture.

I guess a big criticism by the bell hooks response was that the book didn't go deep enough -- didn't talk about women outside of Sandberg's race and class, and presented "nothing new." In rebuttal to the criticism that the book presents nothing new, I honestly don't think the general public finds feminist theory, largely published in an academic setting, accessible on a regular basis, and obviously Lean In has struck a chord with people, there's something there they are finding worth listening to. Is that itself a problem?

Also in the bell hooks rebuttal -- that the book does not speak to other classes and races besides upper-class white women-- is this true? Necessary? Possible in a single book? I don't know the answers to these questions.

ch12

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2014, 10:33:58 PM »
Also in the bell hooks rebuttal -- that the book does not speak to other classes and races besides upper-class white women-- is this true? Necessary? Possible in a single book? I don't know the answers to these questions.

In the remix that Sandberg put out this year at the anniversary of Lean In, she incorporates more stories from women of different ages and races. I think that she does a better job with the relaunch of incorporating multiple viewpoints.

I like the book a lot, even though it's study after study. It's basically an academic paper or feminism textbook linked with memoir bits. I think that it exposed a lot of new people to feminist ideas, and that's always a good thing.

lifejoy

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 08:48:13 AM »
Also in the bell hooks rebuttal -- that the book does not speak to other classes and races besides upper-class white women-- is this true? Necessary? Possible in a single book? I don't know the answers to these questions.

In the remix that Sandberg put out this year at the anniversary of Lean In, she incorporates more stories from women of different ages and races. I think that she does a better job with the relaunch of incorporating multiple viewpoints.

I like the book a lot, even though it's study after study. It's basically an academic paper or feminism textbook linked with memoir bits. I think that it exposed a lot of new people to feminist ideas, and that's always a good thing.

Yes!

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 10:30:55 AM »
I have strong feelings about this book. I think it just a re-hashing of decades-long ideas that put more pressure on women, to do more and be more and take on the world. The book also ignores issues around privilege and props up corporate america. It's harmful. We should be supporting women who have the guts to explore their options, whether it's to work within the corporate structure or outside of it. I didn't feel supported after reading this book, I felt berated.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 12:26:46 PM »
I really liked it. this is a cheesy word, but it did make me feel "empowered." I also liked the emphasis on the importance of having the right partner... otherwise it's just the same old "women trying to 'have it all'" thing that is so exhausting and makes everyone feel like a failure.

For my life, "lean in" doesn't mean working more hours to reach a better position - it means taking risks, being confident and thinking creatively. The Atlantic has an article this month that really hit home - a lot of women pass up opportunities because they believe they are not perfectly qualified, but men are more willing to dive in.
The Confidence Gap:  http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/04/the-confidence-gap/359815/

This summer I am supervising 2 interns - I hope I can be a good example to them even though I still second guess my own skills at times.

absolutely agreed! I related to the parts about "imposter syndrome" and related concepts so much it hurt. it's probably what I liked most out of the book.

bell hooks' rebuttal was really interesting. I definitely don't think of Sandberg as a "high priestess of feminism." I don't know that she necessarily sees herself that way either, so I think that criticizing her for not digging deeply into feminist theory is maybe a little unfair. and sure, maybe the subject matter was old hat to people who already know a lot about feminism, but I think it's pretty obvious from the chord that it struck that a lot of people had NOT read something like this before.

sometimes it seems like people who have been involved in a movement or issue for a long time are hypercritical of "watered-down" versions that have a broader appeal. IMO, anything that is a baby step into critical thinking about feminism for wide swaths of people who haven't had much exposure to it is AWESOME! what's the point in saying "oh that's not radical enough" when the radical views may have a much smaller audience and therefore make it that much harder to effect broad change? or, as ch12 summed it up better:

I think that it exposed a lot of new people to feminist ideas, and that's always a good thing.

I guess a big criticism by the bell hooks response was that the book didn't go deep enough -- didn't talk about women outside of Sandberg's race and class, and presented "nothing new." In rebuttal to the criticism that the book presents nothing new, I honestly don't think the general public finds feminist theory, largely published in an academic setting, accessible on a regular basis, and obviously Lean In has struck a chord with people, there's something there they are finding worth listening to. Is that itself a problem?

Also in the bell hooks rebuttal -- that the book does not speak to other classes and races besides upper-class white women-- is this true? Necessary? Possible in a single book? I don't know the answers to these questions.

yeah, great questions. I would totally agree that there needs to be more digging/a broader range of racial and socioeconomic feminist views represented and discussed in general, obviously those voices need to be heard, but why would an upper-class white woman be the one to write about it?! what would she have to say on the experience of black women or Latina women? or women of any race who grew up poor? speaking as a middle-class white woman myself, I would be honored to be INVOLVED in such a discussion and to learn from these women, but for me to try to lead it by writing a book about it would be really stupid and presumptuous (IMO).

I guess what I'm trying to say in summary is that I think hooks' expectations for the book were too high. I don't think Sandberg was trying to write a magnum opus of feminism for the 21st century... if anything I think it was the media response that spun it that way (but maybe she is partly responsible). anyway, I'm a middle-class white woman and I got a lot out of it that I felt I could apply to my own life, so maybe that's why I liked it. and/or maybe I'm just a bad feminist. :) interestingly I don't even remember the part where she talks about her husband managing their finances... I guess I skimmed over it 'cause I DON'T relate to that part at all :)

Osprey, it's interesting that you felt berated rather than supported. we actually read the book as part of my (coed, and we read a lot of really diverse books) book club last year. although I really liked it, I had a friend who I worked with at the time who expressed views more similar to yours, that she felt like it didn't address systems that are working against women, and was just more of the "you can have/do it all, be superwoman!" rhetoric (which I agree SUCKS, but I just didn't get that out of the book). I guess for me I liked that it didn't focus on too much that is outside my "circle of control," a la MMM :) and instead made me feel like I am a) not alone for undervaluing myself and lacking confidence, and b) able to do SOMETHING about it.

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 07:24:41 PM »
I think it would have had a bigger impact on me if I'd read it when I was a little younger and little farther from ER. It did make me think of ways that I've failed to lean in due to being so close to retirement.

I thought the message was sound, though. I think it's important for women (especially young women) to realize that they maximize their lifetime earning potential by "leaning in" - even though they know that they may ultimately leave the workforce. And I do think she probably challenged some traditional viewpoints.

In short, I liked it. It spoke to me - but you know what? I'm a white, (upper) middle class woman with a Master's degree from a Business School. I mean... this book was written for me, right?

iris lily

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 07:40:13 PM »
I'd love to discuss it here.

It's about women and the work force.
The only thing I know about this book is the snarky way That Wife is discussed on GOMI; That Wife (an object of ridicule, a blogger) is a fan of LeanIn.

This has not been helpful, has it? :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 07:41:53 PM by iris lily »

Kaminoge

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2014, 09:40:58 AM »
I thought it was interesting to read as an "autobiography". And like many books there are things I could take away from it and things that I didn't relate to at all.

I read it quite a while back and I found it interesting but I do remember thinking that her rather rarefied life can only serve as an example up to a point to many of the rest of us.

Quote
Also in the bell hooks rebuttal -- that the book does not speak to other classes and races besides upper-class white women-- is this true? Necessary? Possible in a single book? I don't know the answers to these questions.

I'm sure it speaks to some people from other classes/races but unless she's claiming to speak for everyone (which I don't particularly recall being the case) then I can't see that it's necessary. I mean she's a white, upper-class woman who has had some amazingly good fortune in her life. So that's who she writes as.

boy_bye

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2014, 09:51:13 AM »
Osprey, it's interesting that you felt berated rather than supported. we actually read the book as part of my (coed, and we read a lot of really diverse books) book club last year. although I really liked it, I had a friend who I worked with at the time who expressed views more similar to yours, that she felt like it didn't address systems that are working against women, and was just more of the "you can have/do it all, be superwoman!" rhetoric (which I agree SUCKS, but I just didn't get that out of the book). I guess for me I liked that it didn't focus on too much that is outside my "circle of control," a la MMM :) and instead made me feel like I am a) not alone for undervaluing myself and lacking confidence, and b) able to do SOMETHING about it.

i haven't actually read the book yet, but i've read a lot about it and have heard sandberg speak and i agree heartily with her central thesis (though i'd like her better if she would swear a little more).

in my opinion, yes, it's important to work on the structures in our society that are not supportive to women. and, so far, feminism has done a great job of this -- western women have more freedom than any other women in the history of history.

but we are still held back by a lot of sexist bullshit in our own heads. we're still conditioned to be hypercritical of our own bodies, to judge ourselves by whether other people think we are nice or not, and to vastly over-prioritize romance compared to other parts of our lives. not saying every woman does all of these things, but i believe they are common enough to indeed be A Thing.

we've got more freedom in the external world than ever before, but our conditioning still holds us back in so many ways. we still waste so much of our lives churning through the worries and neurosis caused by this conditioning. and that's on US -- no legislation or march on washington can change what's in our heads. we're the only ones who can do that.

lizi

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2014, 09:56:14 PM »
I haven't yet read Lean In (it's on my list after my pile of Mustachian books) but I just wanted to chime in and say it warms the feminist cockles of my heart to see this thread. I never thought discussions of bell hooks and Mustachianism would collide!

As far as bell hooks' criticism goes, I absolutely agree with what was said before. Sheryl Sandberg is definitely speaking for (and possibly to) a certain subset of women, but she makes that pretty clear and doesn't pretend to do otherwise. I know a lot of Lean In criticisms have revolved around conforming to corporate America (or Australia, or wherever), and the old "master's tools, master's house" thing, but I think to not do so is detrimental to everyone. Increasing diversity is never a bad thing, and it's not like corporate America is going to collapse if women refuse to participate. I also think there is a great link between leaning in and Mustachianism. Recognising your own value, pushing for promotions and pay rises, etc: these are all useful steps towards ER/FI. I will probably pipe up again once I've read the book.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 07:59:05 AM »
Osprey, it's interesting that you felt berated rather than supported. we actually read the book as part of my (coed, and we read a lot of really diverse books) book club last year. although I really liked it, I had a friend who I worked with at the time who expressed views more similar to yours, that she felt like it didn't address systems that are working against women, and was just more of the "you can have/do it all, be superwoman!" rhetoric (which I agree SUCKS, but I just didn't get that out of the book). I guess for me I liked that it didn't focus on too much that is outside my "circle of control," a la MMM :) and instead made me feel like I am a) not alone for undervaluing myself and lacking confidence, and b) able to do SOMETHING about it.

i haven't actually read the book yet, but i've read a lot about it and have heard sandberg speak and i agree heartily with her central thesis (though i'd like her better if she would swear a little more).

in my opinion, yes, it's important to work on the structures in our society that are not supportive to women. and, so far, feminism has done a great job of this -- western women have more freedom than any other women in the history of history.

but we are still held back by a lot of sexist bullshit in our own heads. we're still conditioned to be hypercritical of our own bodies, to judge ourselves by whether other people think we are nice or not, and to vastly over-prioritize romance compared to other parts of our lives. not saying every woman does all of these things, but i believe they are common enough to indeed be A Thing.

we've got more freedom in the external world than ever before, but our conditioning still holds us back in so many ways. we still waste so much of our lives churning through the worries and neurosis caused by this conditioning. and that's on US -- no legislation or march on washington can change what's in our heads. we're the only ones who can do that.

+1 all the way!!! very well put madgeylou.

deborah

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 06:42:09 PM »
Ordered it from my library - there are 67 people on the wait list!!!

grantmeaname

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 06:20:27 AM »
Osprey, it's interesting that you felt berated rather than supported. we actually read the book as part of my (coed, and we read a lot of really diverse books) book club last year. although I really liked it, I had a friend who I worked with at the time who expressed views more similar to yours, that she felt like it didn't address systems that are working against women, and was just more of the "you can have/do it all, be superwoman!" rhetoric (which I agree SUCKS, but I just didn't get that out of the book). I guess for me I liked that it didn't focus on too much that is outside my "circle of control," a la MMM :) and instead made me feel like I am a) not alone for undervaluing myself and lacking confidence, and b) able to do SOMETHING about it.
i haven't actually read the book yet, but i've read a lot about it and have heard sandberg speak and i agree heartily with her central thesis (though i'd like her better if she would swear a little more).

in my opinion, yes, it's important to work on the structures in our society that are not supportive to women. and, so far, feminism has done a great job of this -- western women have more freedom than any other women in the history of history.

but we are still held back by a lot of sexist bullshit in our own heads. we're still conditioned to be hypercritical of our own bodies, to judge ourselves by whether other people think we are nice or not, and to vastly over-prioritize romance compared to other parts of our lives. not saying every woman does all of these things, but i believe they are common enough to indeed be A Thing.

we've got more freedom in the external world than ever before, but our conditioning still holds us back in so many ways. we still waste so much of our lives churning through the worries and neurosis caused by this conditioning. and that's on US -- no legislation or march on washington can change what's in our heads. we're the only ones who can do that.
+1 all the way!!! very well put madgeylou.
+2. I like you and your thoughts. (And this notion applies pretty well to any other ingrained, undesirable thought pattern, from other forms of discrimination to "you'll never make it as an entrepreneur".)

peppermint

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2014, 07:10:48 AM »
but we are still held back by a lot of sexist bullshit in our own heads. we're still conditioned to be hypercritical of our own bodies, to judge ourselves by whether other people think we are nice or not, and to vastly over-prioritize romance compared to other parts of our lives. not saying every woman does all of these things, but i believe they are common enough to indeed be A Thing.

we've got more freedom in the external world than ever before, but our conditioning still holds us back in so many ways. we still waste so much of our lives churning through the worries and neurosis caused by this conditioning. and that's on US -- no legislation or march on washington can change what's in our heads. we're the only ones who can do that.

+1
There's an interesting, related article on this in the Atlantic called "The Confidence Gap" that's worth reading:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/04/the-confidence-gap/359815/

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2014, 07:34:21 AM »
but we are still held back by a lot of sexist bullshit in our own heads. we're still conditioned to be hypercritical of our own bodies, to judge ourselves by whether other people think we are nice or not, and to vastly over-prioritize romance compared to other parts of our lives. not saying every woman does all of these things, but i believe they are common enough to indeed be A Thing.

we've got more freedom in the external world than ever before, but our conditioning still holds us back in so many ways. we still waste so much of our lives churning through the worries and neurosis caused by this conditioning. and that's on US -- no legislation or march on washington can change what's in our heads. we're the only ones who can do that.

+1
There's an interesting, related article on this in the Atlantic called "The Confidence Gap" that's worth reading:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/04/the-confidence-gap/359815/

I disagree with this. It's disingenuous to conflate institutional problems with "internal" problems. It's the same as saying "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and if you don't succeed it's your own fault." Now, I know many members of this forum are all about bootstraps - sure, it's nice to to feel like you are in complete control. But if we buy into this narrative we will be blind to the ways that institutional sexism (and, speaking as a non-white person, racism) holds us back.

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2014, 09:01:01 AM »
Sandberg directly addresses the question of whether structural issues or internal issues hold women back more.  Essentially, she says it is a chicken and egg argument and that both are barriers for women and thus for our society as a whole.  She points out structural issues and heartily supports those who push for changes there but devotes a lot of space to the internal issues because that's been her experience.  It's incorrect to argue that she doesn't address this -- she does, at length and thoughtfully.

As a 40-something professional woman, I can absolutely point to turning points in my life when self-confidence (or lack thereof) altered the course of not only my career by my personal life too.  After all, the two are inextricably entwined.  I can also point to times when structural issues held me back. 

Both need addressing but I have more control over the internal stuff and that's my focus right now.  I'm reading it again, for the third time.

I'm setting a goal for the next year that is incredibly ambitious and could double my salary.  More later....

boy_bye

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2014, 10:18:33 AM »
Sandberg directly addresses the question of whether structural issues or internal issues hold women back more.  Essentially, she says it is a chicken and egg argument and that both are barriers for women and thus for our society as a whole.  She points out structural issues and heartily supports those who push for changes there but devotes a lot of space to the internal issues because that's been her experience.  It's incorrect to argue that she doesn't address this -- she does, at length and thoughtfully.

As a 40-something professional woman, I can absolutely point to turning points in my life when self-confidence (or lack thereof) altered the course of not only my career by my personal life too.  After all, the two are inextricably entwined.  I can also point to times when structural issues held me back. 

Both need addressing but I have more control over the internal stuff and that's my focus right now.  I'm reading it again, for the third time.

exactly right. and i would argue that tackling and making progress on the internal world gives us the skills, confidence, and context we need to transform the external world. even the 2nd wave feminists in the late 60s/early 70s found that they needed consciousness raising groups to help women understand what betty freidan called "the problem that has no name." without this understanding of our internal conditioning, there could be very little understanding of the external factors that hold us back as well.

internal and external are constantly in conversation with each other. every woman who is able to develop her own confidence stands as a beacon to other women, showing what is possible.

this is not to say that everything in the external world is dandy ... but for privileged, educated women in the first world? at this point in history? it's better than it's ever been before, for any women at any time in the history of womankind. and the more of us who assume our rightful places at the table of leadership, the more policies we can implement that benefit all women.

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2014, 10:27:41 AM »
I haven't read it, but it looks like it is worth reading.  When I looked at the reviews I had the following thoughts:

1.  I feel tired by the idea that I have to "lean in"  I don't have the ambition, personality or other inclination to lead or compete.  Same as many others no matter their gender.  Her views are valid, but they are better suited for that group of women who do want to lead and are working large corporations.  I don't work in a large corporation.

2.  If things don't work the way I feel comfortable with ie. there are barriers to success, I spend my time figuring out an opt out that does work.  Autonomy is far more motivating than leading and corporate success for me.  It is education, a sense of autonomy and FI allows me to sit at the table with "business leaders".  I speak up when I have something to say and I don't think being a woman has ever impeded that once I had a sense of mastery in my profession. 

3.  As far as having a mentor goes, I didn't get a lot of benefit, partly because I am a researcher by nature. I am a mentor for someone else and I do enjoy that role.

4. I strongly agree that marrying the right person is up at the top in importance.

5.  As far as both parents working ft and having kids in a shared parenting situation, that just is not the ideal for me.  I did that and was not happy.  I like to spend the day with my kids and I like being there for them.  Work was just not an acceptable substitute no matter how highly paid.   Why in the world would I trade time with my family for work time so I can make more money than I can possibly ever spend?

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2014, 02:33:37 PM »
yeah, I read that Atlantic article the other day and LOVED it.

1.  I feel tired by the idea that I have to "lean in"  I don't have the ambition, personality or other inclination to lead or compete.  Same as many others no matter their gender.  Her views are valid, but they are better suited for that group of women who do want to lead and are working large corporations.  I don't work in a large corporation.

this is really interesting. I'm also not very ambitious or leadership-oriented (I would guess that most of us on an early retirement website aren't, LOL), yet I still can think of many times I have missed opportunities (both personally and professionally) because I lack confidence and continually underrate myself. I like the central idea of the book because I feel like I can apply it to my life even though I'm NOT trying to become a C-level executive or anything.

2.  If things don't work the way I feel comfortable with ie. there are barriers to success, I spend my time figuring out an opt out that does work.  Autonomy is far more motivating than leading and corporate success for me.  It is education, a sense of autonomy and FI allows me to sit at the table with "business leaders".  I speak up when I have something to say and I don't think being a woman has ever impeded that once I had a sense of mastery in my profession. 

I think the point is, though, that a disproportionate number of women do NOT feel a sense of mastery in their profession, even when they really should! and comparatively, not very many men feel this lack of confidence. if it was just easier for you to feel this way, then you're totally a role model for me and probably don't need the book :)

I disagree with this. It's disingenuous to conflate institutional problems with "internal" problems. It's the same as saying "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and if you don't succeed it's your own fault." Now, I know many members of this forum are all about bootstraps - sure, it's nice to to feel like you are in complete control. But if we buy into this narrative we will be blind to the ways that institutional sexism (and, speaking as a non-white person, racism) holds us back.

I guess I just feel like, clearly BOTH types of barriers exist (institutional/external and psychological/internal), but there are only so many hours in the day/I only have so much energy and brainpower, so I'd rather work on the one that to me seems like it would be a lot quicker and easier to change, i.e. my own mindset. I give HUGE props to those who are more committed than I to working on addressing the bigger issues of institutional sexism and racism, and I greatly appreciate it, but I personally am just too fucking lazy. and probably selfish.

and to speak to totoro's quote above, I actually feel MORE tired (and certainly defeated) when I focus on institutional issues, vs. my own bad habit of selling myself short.

anyway TrulyStashin said it better than I did...

Both need addressing but I have more control over the internal stuff and that's my focus right now.

totoro

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2014, 03:02:07 PM »
I don't know.  I think I just happily removed myself from the playing field she is talking about. 

As far as missed opportunities because of lack of confidence, I don't think the issue is confidence or lack of it for me, at least not since a few years into my career.  Once I'm competent with something, the issue has always been match and motivation.  I lose interest quickly if it does not match with my internal values. 

I did go through a learning curve in my career (and still do) and I do hobnob with the "big boys" here and there.   By that I mean I sometimes find myself working closely with political and business leaders (about 80% male), but never under them.  I would probably feel less confident if they were my boss and my job depended on their favour.  Maybe I would be less inclined to say exactly what I thought.  As it stands, I just see them as people like you and me.  People who have kids and dogs and troublesome MILs.  People who might be super successful in one area of life and a mess in another.  I tend do evaluate how happy someone is as the measure of success.

There definitely is sexism in the corporate world, but there is also racism and the advantages the elites hold in having connections and money.   That said, there is still quite a bit of freedom to find something that works for you.  I think the key is knowing what you really want. So, I don't think it is really confidence that I have, it is autonomy.  This has been created through entrepreneurship which is something entirely different than what Ms. Sandberg is talking about.  It is, I think, a much better model and place for me to spend my time and life energy. 

boy_bye

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2014, 11:46:25 AM »
1.  I feel tired by the idea that I have to "lean in"  I don't have the ambition, personality or other inclination to lead or compete.  Same as many others no matter their gender.  Her views are valid, but they are better suited for that group of women who do want to lead and are working large corporations.  I don't work in a large corporation.

part of sandberg's argument is about the fact that soooo many more women than men say things like "i don't have the ambition, personality, or other inclination to compete." why is that? is it just "natural"? as a feminist i would disagree -- i don't think that ambition is a biologically gendered trait. so then why do so many of us have "the personality type" that makes us not want to be leaders? and how do our careers suffer for this? and how does our WORLD suffer for this?

it bears some examination. i would never say that we should push ourselves to go for leadership roles that aren't interesting to us, but it's worth it to look at why they aren't interesting to us. part of that has to do with the external structures that don't support women in the workplace, but part of it has to do with conditioning, too.

totoro

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2014, 12:03:11 PM »
You are probably right about the conditioning having a large role, on the other hand maybe we should be working on the conditioning of men to be ambitious and competitive at the cost of family relationships, health and social wellness.  It cuts both ways.  Being part of a large corporation which is profit-driven often leads to social consequences that are ignored in the need to succeed.  I'm not sure women who succeed in this environment are going to spur change.


grantmeaname

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2014, 02:16:56 PM »
we should be working on the conditioning of men to be ambitious and competitive at the cost of family relationships, health and social wellness.
I totally agree that this is important. But I also think it's happening now. You don't think that this is something that's changing now?

totoro

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2014, 02:35:47 PM »
we should be working on the conditioning of men to be ambitious and competitive at the cost of family relationships, health and social wellness.
I totally agree that this is important. But I also think it's happening now. You don't think that this is something that's changing now?

Yes, I do.  I just question the one-sidedness of women needing to become more ambitious to overcome internalized messages. 

I don't know how much I was affected by that, but there definitely was an effect.  Did it hold me back?  I don't know.

But it is kind of like saying personality is all about environment.  Nope, a lot of it is genetic.  Absolutely.  I was not raised ever knowing or meeting one side of my family.  I met them recently.  You know what, some of them look like me, act like me and find the same things funny.  Some of them have similar careers.  One of them was wearing the same obscure pyjamas as me in our Christmas photos.

I would like to include the other gender here too, examine the value of competition/ambition/leadership in relation to this fact for both men and women, and then add in personality.  Personality is real.  People have genetically inherited traits imo.  Not everyone is suited to "leaning in" or being the leader in a corporate environment.   Maybe very few on this site of either gender.

Did it not contribute enough positive to the world as a result of my gendered boundaries?  I think that conclusion does not automatically follow from being less ambitious.  I also think being a leader does not mean you are a fantastic human being and a bringer of positive social change, particularly in a corporate environment.

grantmeaname

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2014, 03:57:21 PM »
Not everyone is suited to "leaning in" or being the leader in a corporate environment.   Maybe very few on this site of either gender.
I've actually heard this criticism a few times about this book. I agree that the c-suite isn't the goal for most people of either gender, but if your ambition is to downshift and homestead, maybe you're not who the book is for. Sandberg didn't set out to write the all-encompassing encyclopedia of gender relations, she wrote about her experience climbing the ladder. If a successful female athlete wrote a book like this about her athletic career, we wouldn't say "well that's great but what if I don't want to play basketball", would we?

Cressida

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2014, 04:03:54 PM »
You are probably right about the conditioning having a large role, on the other hand maybe we should be working on the conditioning of men to be ambitious and competitive at the cost of family relationships, health and social wellness.

YES YES YES YES

One of the angriest comment threads I ever read was on an article that dared to suggest that more men* should work in "traditionally" female jobs like childcare, because it benefits everyone if all jobs are un-gendered (as opposed to only the male jobs becoming un-gendered, which is how things are now). The male commenters were Positively Outraged at this suggestion.

*not men in general, obviously; just men who would be suited to and enjoy those jobs but who reject them because they're not masculine.

boy_bye

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2014, 04:11:29 PM »
i should probably read the book before i comment so much on it -- LOL! -- but totoro i see and agree with everything you are saying. no one has "the answer" -- the value, i think, comes from simply thinking about the question.

personally, i don't have much desire to run the company i work for ... but i do want to have a big impact on the world in other ways. and i can definitely see the merit in pushing myself a little bit beyond what i think i am capable of. my upbringing wants me to be perfect, to know exactly what i'm doing in every moment, and be as pleasing as possible to others. but these aren't the behaviors of growth.

so when i understand how that works, when i see how my desire to have everyone happy with me all the time makes me write timidly, or not speak my mind in a meeting at work, or whatever -- well if i can see it happening, i can often shut that pattern down. then i can jump in and trust my own instincts and not be too worried about fucking things up. and i think these skills of letting it rip in the moment and being confident enough in your ability to work it out without demanding perfection -- they are all important things for women to try and learn and develop, and not just in the corporate world. it's counter to our conditioning, so it takes some effort.

i recently read this quote and it really stuck with me:

I was watching Hillary Clinton up on stage recently, at a conference for women. She was asked to give the younger generation career advice. “At this point in my career, I’ve employed so many young people,” Hillary began. “One of the differences is that when I say to a young woman, ‘I want you to take on this extra responsibility,” almost invariably she says, ‘Do you think I’m ready?’ But when I ask a man, he goes, ‘How high, how fast, when do I start?!’

(it's from this article.)

totoro

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2014, 05:10:13 PM »
Not everyone is suited to "leaning in" or being the leader in a corporate environment.   Maybe very few on this site of either gender.
I've actually heard this criticism a few times about this book. I agree that the c-suite isn't the goal for most people of either gender, but if your ambition is to downshift and homestead, maybe you're not who the book is for. Sandberg didn't set out to write the all-encompassing encyclopedia of gender relations, she wrote about her experience climbing the ladder. If a successful female athlete wrote a book like this about her athletic career, we wouldn't say "well that's great but what if I don't want to play basketball", would we?

Yes, and to be clear, I haven't read the book.  I've only read a synopsis of it and the comments here.  I'm really responding to the comments here and voicing my own reaction. I am interested in how I respond because it raises issues of cultural influence and gender and personality that make me think.

Maybe this book is just for women who fit the niche.  In that case, I maybe shouldn't read it.  The conversation is still engaging.

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2014, 08:48:41 PM »
what a great discussion we have here.  I am totally inspired to read the book.  I have a summer vacation coming up and am stocking up since I will be in "travel" mode for LOTs of time.  I need something to keep me interested while I wait for flights and sit in train stations. 

I can't wait to see my feeling after reading the book; inspired or annoyed?  I have worked in the corporate world for over 17 years.  I have gone through years of just getting by and other periods of really pushing for the gold. This might be just the book I need to get reenergized for the second half of the year.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2014, 08:27:22 AM »
You are probably right about the conditioning having a large role, on the other hand maybe we should be working on the conditioning of men to be ambitious and competitive at the cost of family relationships, health and social wellness.

YES YES YES YES

One of the angriest comment threads I ever read was on an article that dared to suggest that more men* should work in "traditionally" female jobs like childcare, because it benefits everyone if all jobs are un-gendered (as opposed to only the male jobs becoming un-gendered, which is how things are now). The male commenters were Positively Outraged at this suggestion.

*not men in general, obviously; just men who would be suited to and enjoy those jobs but who reject them because they're not masculine.

AHHH YES

I agree so much that we need to not just focus on women making their way in a "man's world," but on men being able to do whatever the fuck they want also. restrictive gender norms hurt women AND men. I think feminism didn't focus enough on this in the past, but is starting to... I agree with grantmeaname that this does seem to be changing now (hopefully it continues!). also in a way I think Sandberg alludes to this issue when she points out that your choice of a partner is SO important... needs to be someone who will "lean in" to parenting as much as you do! (parenting being considered a "traditionally female" activity by many, similar to the careers you mentioned)

personally, i don't have much desire to run the company i work for ... but i do want to have a big impact on the world in other ways. and i can definitely see the merit in pushing myself a little bit beyond what i think i am capable of. my upbringing wants me to be perfect, to know exactly what i'm doing in every moment, and be as pleasing as possible to others. but these aren't the behaviors of growth.

so when i understand how that works, when i see how my desire to have everyone happy with me all the time makes me write timidly, or not speak my mind in a meeting at work, or whatever -- well if i can see it happening, i can often shut that pattern down. then i can jump in and trust my own instincts and not be too worried about fucking things up. and i think these skills of letting it rip in the moment and being confident enough in your ability to work it out without demanding perfection -- they are all important things for women to try and learn and develop, and not just in the corporate world. it's counter to our conditioning, so it takes some effort.

aaaaand madgeylou does it again, stating everything I've ever thought much more eloquently than I could :) I am so scared of looking dumb and so convinced that I am the least knowledgeable person in the room most of the time (even in situations when I obviously AM NOT... like uh, my thesis defense? who knows more about that than me? come on!) and it has REALLY held me back. honestly I thought it was just my personality and never realized LOTS of other women had the same issue until people really started talking/writing about it a few years ago. realizing it wasn't just me has really been a game changer... which is probably why I'm so obsessed with this book and talking about it :)

I can't wait to see my feeling after reading the book; inspired or annoyed?  I have worked in the corporate world for over 17 years.  I have gone through years of just getting by and other periods of really pushing for the gold. This might be just the book I need to get reenergized for the second half of the year.

awesome! I'm looking forward to hearing what you think!

TrulyStashin

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2014, 01:35:39 PM »
I'm navigating an interesting professional situation and I think the points made in Lean In are directly applicable.  Your thoughts are welcome.

I'm on the board of the Women's Bar association in my city -- it's my first year on the board though I know many of the other board members well.   I'm the chair of the committee that is charged with putting together two Continuing Education programs.  Most of the other board members practice in family law, bankruptcy, general civil litigation, etc. and so most of our programs orbit these practice areas.   I practice corporate law and am a "thought leader" (stupid term but what else is there?) on a particular corporate governance Issue.  I'd like to (for once) offer a program that is appropriate for corporate lawyers and their clients.  It's actually a great chance to bring in a couple of sponsors that would help our coffers.

I floated the idea of having a program on a swiftly changing area of corporate governance.  I suggested that I speak for about 10 - 15 minutes to give context and explain the significance of the Issues and then I'd turn the floor over to two leaders from the business world (senior people at Fortune 500 firms who lead on the Issue) and let them discuss how their companies handle the Issue and why.   There is no one else in my city who works on this issue -- certainly no one else in the Women's Bar who does.

There was pushback.  Many of the other board members simply didn't understand why the Issue matters.  I explained it.  I drafted up a short abstract and sent it by email to everyone, inviting their thoughts.  I got positive feedback and a thumbs up from the board executives.  The one other corporate lawyer on the board was excited to have something that she could invite clients to.

And then..... A week later, I got an email from the President of the board.  She is okay with doing the program and okay with the two (male) corporate leaders that I'm inviting.  But, she doesn't want me to be on the panel.  She wants me to choose someone else to do the opening 15 minutes of context/ explanation. 

So, I'm supposed to do all the work to put the panel together and distill a complicated subject into 15-minutes of 100-level content but then let someone else (who is less qualified) give the presentation?

WTF is going on here?

How would you handle this?



boy_bye

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2014, 05:22:41 AM »
Hmm that seems weird. Did she give any reasons for this decision? Why do you think she's asking you this? Do members of this group often take the floor to speak, or it is unusual at you would speak based on the group's typical operating procedure?

TrulyStashin

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Re: Have you read "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg?
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2014, 01:10:20 PM »
She didn't give a reason.  It is not unusual for members to be on the stage as part of a panel discussion -- e.g. a family law lawyer on a panel discussing domestic violence.

My sense is that she and/ or other board members see me as opportunistic and ambitious (guilty as charged; isn't that why we're members?) and it's got them feeling defensive and "less than."  It's should be no surprise to anyone that women are often the biggest impediments to other women's advancement.

I've decided to use this as an opportunity to practice my "winning friends and influencing people" skills.  I've been reading Dale Carnegie's classic, along with How Remarkable Women Lead" (outstanding, highly recommend) and I'm going to craft an approach that isn't about me at all.  I'm going to make it about her and ask her about how/ why she has volunteered to take on such a demanding leadership role and what she wants for the organization.  I'm going to do my best to make her feel important and that I genuinely care about her success.

I'll see her on Weds at our monthly luncheon.  I'll email her today and ask if she can meet up a few minutes early to discuss the program.   

I'll report back on how it goes.  Whatever the outcome, this is a great chance to improve my skills.