Author Topic: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis  (Read 9186 times)

MgoSam

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Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« on: May 05, 2014, 09:38:57 PM »
I am reading Michael Lewis' new book "Flash Boys," and wow I am loving it. Anyone else here reading/read it?

grantmeaname

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2014, 01:32:53 PM »
I'm not but perhaps I will at some point. I liked Liar's Poker quite a bit. When I do I'll probably bring along grains of salt in the forms of some finance textbooks, though - pop finance seems to be notoriously economical with the truth. What are your thoughts so far besides the general impression?

MgoSam

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2014, 07:46:44 AM »
I really liked it, Michael Lewis is a great writer. Though I am not that financially savvy, I do understand bid-ask and his explanation of what the HFT were doing was clearly understood, and I loved that he explained what was going on. At the same time he was entertaining and engaging. This for him is an old-hat as he has taken a subject I care little for, baseball, and made it interesting in his book 'Moneyball.'

Michread

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2014, 06:49:06 AM »
Waiting for it from the library.

hodedofome

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 03:13:32 PM »
It's a nice story but the HFT guys aren't as bad as they seem in the book. Think of them as the house during a poker game. The house always takes a little off the top as payment for their services.

livingthedream

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2014, 02:54:27 PM »
I'm 3/4 of the way through this one and can't seem to finish. Probably doesn't help that I usually start reading before bed and it puts me to sleep. I guess the moral of the story for me is don't play their game and stick to Vanguard funds although I suspect the Flash Boys are still taking some of the cut.

bballfreakunc

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2015, 08:52:35 PM »
I like to think that IEX is doing what it is supposed to do; creating fairness in an unfair and unjust world. It is interesting how all the other exchanges cater to the HFTs of the world. Also the number of different order types is fascinating. I've only used market and limit and wouldn't know what to do with the others.

IllusionNW

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2015, 11:24:50 PM »
Wow, how timely.  I just checked it out from the library today!  Will update this thread once I get into it.

khizr

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 03:33:30 AM »
I am reading Michael Lewis' new book "Flash Boys," and wow I am loving it. Anyone else here reading/read it?
I loved it, and I think it is a great read, but I don't think it is the best book out there on the automated training & wall street stealing money from the rest of us.

The book Dark Pools is really good:
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Pools-ebook/dp/B006OFHLG6/ref=sr_1_1_title_1_kin?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360560900&sr=1-1&keywords=dark+pools+high+speed+trading


Also, if you are interested in how people end up in wall street check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Young-Money-Streets-Post-Crash-Recruits-ebook/dp/B00CO7GH54/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1404782267&sr=1-1&keywords=young+money

It is the story of a great writer following 8 new recruits to wall street over a 2 to 3 year period. Really interesting :)



rainBOW2310

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 10:19:14 PM »
I just finished the book and did some researching to validate his points. I'm curious as to what others think about the firms that are staying away from IEX - specifically Vanguard. Bogle has come out and said that the HFT/front-running phenomenon is no big deal (http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=136660) and doesn't affect indexed funds. But has it really been around long enough to state that authoritatively? I completely agree that the best way to change the incentive structure on Wall Street is to have some market forces drive it in one direction rather than have the regulators step in, but why are some firms hesitant to join IEX? They haven't gotten enough public pressure yet? If we don't pressure them and the regulators don't pressure them, nothing will change. Makes me suspicious that Vanguard has some side deal with the HFTs.

clifp

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 01:51:19 AM »
I just finished the book and did some researching to validate his points. I'm curious as to what others think about the firms that are staying away from IEX - specifically Vanguard. Bogle has come out and said that the HFT/front-running phenomenon is no big deal (http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=136660) and doesn't affect indexed funds. But has it really been around long enough to state that authoritatively? I completely agree that the best way to change the incentive structure on Wall Street is to have some market forces drive it in one direction rather than have the regulators step in, but why are some firms hesitant to join IEX? They haven't gotten enough public pressure yet? If we don't pressure them and the regulators don't pressure them, nothing will change. Makes me suspicious that Vanguard has some side deal with the HFTs.

I thought it was great book, Lewis has a real knack for making dry subjects seem interesting.  With respect to John Bogle in some ways he is right but, in the context of the overall market the several billion dollars in profits that HFT make while providing no value is relatively small.  On the other hand is dead wrong if think that index funds aren't affected they are.  In fact more so than most trading because it is so predictable.  When Vanguard gets a monthly infusion of 401K cash into their index fund they have no choice but to buy and they'll be front run on every single trade because of the volume they do..

Another way of thinking of this is the total value of the US market is about 20 trillion a 2 billion of profits for HFT increase the expense ratio of stocks by .01% and if the profits are actually closer to 4 or 5 billion as Lewis and other suggest that is .02% with VTI having an expense ratio of .05% that means that a large chunk of the hidden expense go not to Vanguard (and who's profit benefit mutual fund owners) but rather to the parasitic high frequency traders.

I think Schwab's statement on High Frequency trading posted a year ago is far more responsible position. http://pressroom.aboutschwab.com/press-release/corporate-and-financial-news/schwab-statement-high-frequency-trading . In taking to several mid level folks at Schwab, I think they like myself were surprised at the magnitude of the problem, and also felt like I did pretty pissed off.  After reading the book, I have watched my trades far more carefully and I can say that I've been front run very often. Typical it is $.01 share  but in the case of options I've lost .05 on contract which is a sizable amount for a $2 option.  All in all, I estimate I lose several hundred a year to the HFT folks, and I am not a happy camper about it.  I just know it would be worse if my money was in a mutual fund.

My Own Advisor

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2015, 05:38:45 PM »
I will be starting it later this month.  Have to finishing reading another book first :)

Maverick1

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2015, 11:29:11 AM »
I'm a big fan of Michael Lewis, I read "Flash Boys" the weekend it came out.  While I don't think it was his best book, it was informative and entertaining.

The Big Short, Boomerang, Moneyball and Liar's Poker are my favourite Michael Lewis books.

hodedofome

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Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 07:24:21 PM »
http://www.mercenarytrader.com/2014/04/dumb-tourist-michael-lewis-flash-boys-review/

A non-HFT trader gives a good defense for HFT.


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« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 07:26:04 PM by hodedofome »

Cheryl

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 09:45:16 AM »
I read that book while in the middle of a Stephen King binge.  It... sounded the same.

kite

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2015, 05:09:26 PM »
http://www.mercenarytrader.com/2014/04/dumb-tourist-michael-lewis-flash-boys-review/

A non-HFT trader gives a good defense for HFT.


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Excellent review.

forummm

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2015, 08:17:19 AM »
I'm looking forward to reading it. I'm sure that Vanguard is somewhat affected by HFT, just like everyone else is. Front-runners are just another form of Wall Street people trying to make a buck by leaching off of already existing activity. They provide no or minimal value, but extract rents from everyone else, thereby discouraging useful market activity. It's a shame and a waste of resources. Why can't the incentives be realigned so that these people spend all their time and capital trying to cure cancer or something else that's actually useful to humanity?

grantmeaname

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2015, 11:06:48 AM »
What a nuanced #take.

The review on mercenarytrader gives a pretty good explanation - the providers of liquidity provide a service, and HFT guys have provided more liquidity than at any time in history and their charge for doing so is smaller than it's ever been. The facts show clearly that "Wall Street people" do vital things, that the growth of the real economy is dependent on a well-developed financial sector, and that nobody has come up with a better system yet.

forummm

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2015, 11:29:46 AM »
What a nuanced #take.

The review on mercenarytrader gives a pretty good explanation - the providers of liquidity provide a service, and HFT guys have provided more liquidity than at any time in history and their charge for doing so is smaller than it's ever been. The facts show clearly that "Wall Street people" do vital things, that the growth of the real economy is dependent on a well-developed financial sector, and that nobody has come up with a better system yet.

Lots of nuance here :)

Not sure if you're responding to my post. But the mercenarytrader says that people used to steal in the old system too. That fits with what I said. But the real issue with HFT is not "providing liquidity" it's the front running. The getting as close as possible to the exchange to sniff out trades coming in, buying the stocks already available for purchase, and selling them at markup milliseconds later is not useful and is a rent seeking tax on all useful financial activity. Strangely, mercenarytrader leaves this out of his piece completely. This is the part of HFT that is most objectionable.

There is value to having some liquidity. And some value to some of the financial services. But the profits of the financial sector far and away exceed the value they create. And front running is another example of non-beneficial activity that's a tax on beneficial activity.

hodedofome

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2015, 08:58:56 PM »
What mercenarytrader is basically saying is that spreads and commissions used to he horrible, and because of HFT it is much, much cheaper than it used to be. Providing liquidity is part of HFT. Yes there's bad HFT and we should deal with that, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. It's not ALL bad, and really we're talking about pennies here on most of the front running and that shouldn't affect most of us in any real way. In most of the worst case scenarios us regular guys shouldn't be losing sleep about it.


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forummm

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2015, 09:19:56 AM »
We all agree that there is value to liquidity and have stipulated that more frequent trading decreases bid/ask spreads. But the cost of achieving that increased liquidity may be more than any benefit. I think of increased liquidity to mean that a trade happens faster and cheaper. HFT may be providing faster in some cases, but they are only doing faster trading because they know they can sell it for more to someone else very quickly. Very often that is because they are front running, which I can't think of any reason could be seen as anything other than an inefficient, rent-seeking tax. If they are buying because they believe they can sell for higher in 5 minutes, that does provide some liquidity, but makes the trades more expensive for those who just want to sell today and don't care about it happening this instant or in the next few minutes.

Comparing the market maker costs of the 1950s (non-electronic, open-outcry trading) to 2015 is a spurious strawman and ignores the inevitable efficiency gains due to advances in technology that would have come without HFT skimming off the top of transactions.

One factor you raise that could be a benefit is that HFT may be promoting competition in marketplace commissions. I don't know how large that effect is relative to what it would be without the HFT firms.

grantmeaname

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2015, 08:18:40 AM »
I think it's important to distinguish market participants trading for their own account and attempting to find short arbitrage opportunities from brokers trading on behalf of investors. The first one is good, I think - the quest for arbitrage profits drives those profits smaller and smaller, giving us narrower bid-ask spreads and less mispricing. The second one is where you could see front-running, and is obviously bad. I think the mercenarytrader review was suggesting that it's two fundamentally different groups of traders - and that front-running occurred before HFT. But it seems like you're suggesting that HFT shops trading on their own behalf are trying to front-run orders made by other market participants? Can you explain that a bit further?

forummm

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2015, 09:03:51 AM »
A lot of the activity in HFT (including by big banks like GS, BA, etc) has been to get as close as possible to the computers that conduct the trades on the major exchanges. Literally getting their wires shorter than other traders, to front run. Traders are paying NYSE extra to get their servers in the same building as the NYSE servers. One example: Stocks are traded on a couple dozen different exchanges. So if the computers see a trade order being entered in one location they can race ahead through their shorter wires to buy the stock before the other order is filled, and selling it within milliseconds to the person who created the initial order.

I just quickly googled and these were what popped up first--probably not comprehensive or the best examples.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/14/opinion/krugman-three-expensive-milliseconds.html
http://www.wired.com/2012/08/ff_wallstreet_trading/

grantmeaname

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2015, 10:46:11 AM »
Okay, but that's something that we already had before and now it's getting to be smaller and smaller, isn't it?
the quest for arbitrage profits drives those profits smaller and smaller, giving us narrower bid-ask spreads and less mispricing.

forummm

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2015, 12:50:38 PM »
Okay, but that's something that we already had before and now it's getting to be smaller and smaller, isn't it?
the quest for arbitrage profits drives those profits smaller and smaller, giving us narrower bid-ask spreads and less mispricing.


I'm hoping that they will compete themselves out of an industry. And that exchanges will impose the same level of access for all traders. Some have done this already, making sure that the same length of cable is used between all trader servers and the central exchange server, even if some are physically closer than others.

milesdividendmd

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Re: Flash Boys by Michael Lewis
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2015, 10:07:28 AM »
HFT provides liquidity only where none is needed.

These algorithmic traders are essentially inserting themselves as middleman into trades where there is already a buyer and a seller making a transaction.

And the next time there is a liquidity crisis (I.e. all buyers no sellers), they will be nowhere to be found and will have zero effect on narrowing  the bid ask spread.

There is plenty of evidence that bid ask spreads have come down overtime. But there is very little if any evidence that this shrinking of the bid ask spread has anything to do with high-frequency trading.