Author Topic: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer  (Read 2394 times)

TreeLeaf

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Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« on: November 28, 2022, 07:35:09 PM »
I just finished reading this book. I bought it after listening to him in the latest Andrew Huberman podcast.

It seems very interesting. The main theory seems like a bit of a stretch based on my understanding of the current research, but I'm currently digging into his references. The implications of this theory are pretty profound though if it is true.

I do not have a medical background and was wondering if someone with a medical background has read the book and would like to comment?

Metalcat

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2022, 05:42:40 AM »
Okay...well...hmm...

Keto diets might be effective for modulating a lot of things, and they might not. Is this theory totally "revolutionary?"
No.

There is a lot of suggestive research indicating a lot of "maybe" stuff when it comes to these diets, and various MDs write non academic books for public consumption that weave a very convincing narrative for whatever specific diet they're promoting. But we in the medical world take these books worth a grain of salt.

This research exists in all of our worlds, it's not like it's being ignored. Plenty of medical courses are now teaching that keto and intermittent fasting are reasonable recommendations for various conditions and as the clinical success add up, so will the recommendations. However, overstatements from MDs trying to sell books tend to actually slow the dissemination of these approaches.

These MDs get skewered by actual scientists for overstating what the research actually says for the sake of a more convincing narrative. The narrative is NEVER that convincing in reality, unfortunately. The science is more like a lot of "well maybe" and "needs further study."

The thing with diet is that it's impossible to study properly. We can't design studies that reliably control people's eating for extended lengths of time. That's why when it comes to how diet affects the body, it's mostly just a shrug and a "maybe?"

Plus the vast majority of nutrition science is commissioned and paid for by industry, so what's out there mostly just very expensive advertising dressed up as science. I'm not saying that's the science this dude based his conclusions on, I'm just saying that's why there isn't better science for him to cite.

The world of medicine and nutrition and how they interact has always been a "fucked if we know" hand waving kind of trial and error mess where myths frequently get mistaken for facts, and entire policies get based on them. It's unfortunate.

Is a keto or intermittent fasting diet worth trying if you have a complex health condition? Yep.
A complex mental health condition? Yep

Can we say much beyond that?? Not really, not with any degree of certainty, and certainly not with a legitimate, highly convincing narrative that's actually scientifically defensible without endless hedging language like "may have an impact" and "could be causal" and "is still unknown" and "requires more research."

But we clinicians often get a little bolder in what we've come to understand and believe based on our extensive clinical knowledge, which is legitimate. If these doctors just said "I read some cool shit, thought it might work, and then it did!" I would be like "cool, me too, isn't it fun when you find shit that works?"

That's how medicine works. We don't actually have solid science behind a lot of our treatments. We have clinical experience. It's totally legitimate to promote a treatment approach based on clinical experience without claiming your approach is scientific, because most of the time it isn't.

That's what drives a lot of us batty. Especially folks like me who have done research AND clinical work.

It's like Dr. Jason Fung. I don't doubt for a second that he gets great clinical results with intermittent fasting for his patients. That's cool. But then he goes and writes these ridiculous, very convincing for lay people, books that overstate the research instead of just resting on his clinical laurels of "I tried this and it worked!"

I don't doubt for a second that diet is a major contributor to mental health. I think pretty much everyone has known this to some degree for many, many years.

Exactly the relationship? Impossible to say at the current level of scientific knowledge. Can I believe that a psychiatrist would get much better results putting everyone on a keto diet? No doubt! That's very easy for me to believe.

Do I buy his complex, highly convincing narrative as to *why* any of this happens? Eh...not so much.

It's not like he has special access to science that the world of experts doesn't.

At best, he has a theory, he has clinical knowledge (highly valuable), and he has a good understanding that the existing science doesn't contradict his theory.

That's pretty impressive. It just doesn't sell books to lay people.

Are we looking at a future where mental health is eradicated by keto diets? Lol, I fucking doubt it. But in the distant future, we could be looking at a future where genes are analyzed and eating profiles are generated for each individual to stave off various health issues.

My point is, everyone is affected by their diet. But we're nowhere near a point of understanding exactly how, or what that means for individuals.

However, IF and Keto are much more harmless interventions than most drugs, so it's totally reasonable to recommend it as an intervention for patients with substantial mental health issues.

If this very convincing book helps with patient compliance, then there's some value there I suppose. But does it offset the damage of lowering the credibility of the keto/IF for medicine approach?
Not sure.

My entire last few years of my career were centered on a scientifically unproven treatment that was clinically known to work well for most patients with a particularly hard to treat condition.

It exploded into popularity and the "scientific" claims of its inventor were right in line with the medical trends of the era, but they were a huge overstatement, just like most associated with this trend were.

As the overstatement was debunked, many of the associated treatments were thrown out. As was this particular one. The tragic part was that the reason it worked had nothing to do with the trend. The inventor's explanation for why it worked was flat out wrong. As were his explanations for the cases where it didn't work.

Years later some clinicians figured out how the treatment actually worked and also figured out how to make it much more effective.

Unfortunately by that point, the damage of the theory having been debunked was already done. The treatment was almost universally denounced as "quackery" and no one was willing to pay thousands of dollars to learn how to do it anymore, and anyone who said it actually works was seen as falling for quackery.

This is the main risk I see in overstatement of scientific explanations that don't really exist.

Do I think diets should play a much bigger role in mental health management? Absolutely. As someone who is a former neuroscience researcher, a former clinical medical professional, and currently training as a mental health professional, I will absolutely be keeping my eye on what comes along in terms of "best practices" for recommending diets to clients.

However, I worry that the over eager, profit driven, overstatement of theories in books for lay consumption could cause the same kind of reputational damage that happened in my previous area of expertise.

It's the same way that the book "Wheat Belly" made diet recommendations that helped millions of people, but once the author was proven to be ridiculously overstating the science, that's it, his books stopped being able to help anyone.

If these doctors just stuck to the discourse that they KNOW is medically and scientifically valid, they wouldn't run this risk of having their own area of expertise tarnished with the "quack" label.

But that wouldn't make them as much money :(

dcheesi

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2022, 06:47:27 AM »
That's sad, Malcat. But yeah, most folks are more intrigued by a good story, which in this case involves the "why" of a treatment as well as the "how". Folks would much rather be spun a yarn about the reasons than to have the "expert" admit that they just don't know why something works.

Anecdotally, a friend of ours swears that keto has made a huge difference in their mental health symptoms. They had to fight with hospital and rehab food service staff to maintain their diet while recovering from surgery.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2022, 12:25:06 PM »
@Malcat

The basic argument that he makes in the book is that most mental illnesses can be traced back to mitochondrial dysfunction causing overactivation or underactivation of various neuronal circuits that are expressed as anxiety, paranoia, depression, etc, and that most treatment options available today work by repairing mitochondrial dysfunction either directly or indirectly, and helps to restore the neuronal functioning of these circuits.

Keto and fasting are barely mentioned in the book - it is mostly about linking the various treatment options that are available for mental illness, including SSRIs, various other prescription drugs, exercise, positive relationships, therapy, etc and finding the causal link between the treatment options and mitochondrial dysfunction restoration and neuronal activity. 

The latter part of the book outlines how various known risk factors for mental illness, such as excessive alcohol consumption, obesity, diabetes, drug use, etc cause mitochondrial damage that can then impact neuronal circuit functioning and lead to mental illnesses being expressed.

Thoughts?   

Metalcat

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2022, 12:36:55 PM »
@Malcat

The basic argument that he makes in the book is that most mental illnesses can be traced back to mitochondrial dysfunction causing overactivation or underactivation of various neuronal circuits that are expressed as anxiety, paranoia, depression, etc, and that most treatment options available today work by repairing mitochondrial dysfunction either directly or indirectly, and helps to restore the neuronal functioning of these circuits.

Keto and fasting are barely mentioned in the book - it is mostly about linking the various treatment options that are available for mental illness, including SSRIs, various other prescription drugs, exercise, positive relationships, therapy, etc and finding the causal link between the treatment options and mitochondrial dysfunction restoration and neuronal activity. 

The latter part of the book outlines how various known risk factors for mental illness, such as excessive alcohol consumption, obesity, diabetes, drug use, etc cause mitochondrial damage that can then impact neuronal circuit functioning and lead to mental illnesses being expressed.

Thoughts?

Sorry, the my comment is useless. I was commenting for recommendations and claims this doctor is known for. As you know, I don't read pop medicine books.

ixtap

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2022, 12:48:59 PM »
@Malcat

The basic argument that he makes in the book is that most mental illnesses can be traced back to mitochondrial dysfunction causing overactivation or underactivation of various neuronal circuits that are expressed as anxiety, paranoia, depression, etc, and that most treatment options available today work by repairing mitochondrial dysfunction either directly or indirectly, and helps to restore the neuronal functioning of these circuits.

Keto and fasting are barely mentioned in the book - it is mostly about linking the various treatment options that are available for mental illness, including SSRIs, various other prescription drugs, exercise, positive relationships, therapy, etc and finding the causal link between the treatment options and mitochondrial dysfunction restoration and neuronal activity. 

The latter part of the book outlines how various known risk factors for mental illness, such as excessive alcohol consumption, obesity, diabetes, drug use, etc cause mitochondrial damage that can then impact neuronal circuit functioning and lead to mental illnesses being expressed.

Thoughts?

Sorry, the my comment is useless. I was commenting for recommendations and claims this doctor is known for. As you know, I don't read pop medicine books.

I jumped to the same conclusions reading the reviews by the likes of Hyman and Fung.

Since I get anxious and jittery on a keto diet, I am always happy to point out that the research is not conclusive. Still glad that keto became so popular as I now have a number of recipes and products available that are suitable for a diabetic.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2022, 12:55:10 PM »
@Malcat - Do you have any academic textbook recommendations on mitochondrial functioning?

Metalcat

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2022, 01:08:23 PM »
@Malcat - Do you have any academic textbook recommendations on mitochondrial functioning?

No. Research on mitochondrial function and it's impacts is still very basic. And I'm using the term "basic" in the scientific sense, not the colloquial sense, meaning we're still trying to understand the basics.

What it means in terms of actual complex function and behaviour is still a giant mystery.

Hence why I cringe at anyone claiming to directly claim it to be a causal source of complex behaviour.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2022, 01:24:59 PM »
@Malcat - Do you have any academic textbook recommendations on mitochondrial functioning?

No. Research on mitochondrial function and it's impacts is still very basic. And I'm using the term "basic" in the scientific sense, not the colloquial sense, meaning we're still trying to understand the basics.

What it means in terms of actual complex function and behaviour is still a giant mystery.

Hence why I cringe at anyone claiming to directly claim it to be a causal source of complex behaviour.

Yes - the theory is a bit out there based on current scientific evidence, but the mechanisms and explanation and research he cites seems pretty sound...but this isn't my field of expertise. I am basically looking for a critical review of the theory from a medical doctor or professor of neuroscience, etc.

It's important to me because mental illness runs in my family. It also impacts what I should do in my own life to treat depression. For example, if the theory is correct it has a lot of ramifications about prescription medicine in general, among other things.

See here, for example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684129/#!po=18.3333

Metalcat

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2022, 01:29:24 PM »
@Malcat - Do you have any academic textbook recommendations on mitochondrial functioning?

No. Research on mitochondrial function and it's impacts is still very basic. And I'm using the term "basic" in the scientific sense, not the colloquial sense, meaning we're still trying to understand the basics.

What it means in terms of actual complex function and behaviour is still a giant mystery.

Hence why I cringe at anyone claiming to directly claim it to be a causal source of complex behaviour.

Yes - the theory is a bit out there based on current scientific evidence, but the mechanisms and explanation and research he cites seems pretty sound...but this isn't my field of expertise. I am basically looking for a critical review of the theory from a medical doctor or professor of neuroscience, etc.

It's important to me because mental illness runs in my family. It also impacts what I should do in my own life to treat depression. For example, if the theory is correct it has a lot of ramifications about prescription medicine in general, among other things.

See here, for example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684129/#!po=18.3333

Yes, research in this area could lead to changes in medicine, and likely will. Does it impact the individual at all at this point in terms of practical medicine or managing mental health? No, not really.

For you personally, I think your focus should still be on finding a really good counsellor and seeing how you progress from there.

There's no mitochondrial function intervention that you can really look to as an alternative. If one comes about, then that will be enormously heavily publicized.

Any lifestyle modifications that propose to alter mitochondrial function are like anything else in the vague medicine space: theoretical and basically down to trial and error for the individual.

This is why I mentioned keto, because I've seen this doctor heavily associated with the crew that dramatically overstate the known impacts of ketogenic diets for, well, whatever it is that they claim keto diets can do.

Which again, maybe they can. It's just not true that they *know* that to the degree they tend to claim that they do.

Like everything, it's always a matter of trial and error, and that's true of even well established drugs and treatments.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 01:33:49 PM by Malcat »

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2022, 01:45:21 PM »
@Malcat - Do you have any academic textbook recommendations on mitochondrial functioning?

No. Research on mitochondrial function and it's impacts is still very basic. And I'm using the term "basic" in the scientific sense, not the colloquial sense, meaning we're still trying to understand the basics.

What it means in terms of actual complex function and behaviour is still a giant mystery.

Hence why I cringe at anyone claiming to directly claim it to be a causal source of complex behaviour.

Yes - the theory is a bit out there based on current scientific evidence, but the mechanisms and explanation and research he cites seems pretty sound...but this isn't my field of expertise. I am basically looking for a critical review of the theory from a medical doctor or professor of neuroscience, etc.

It's important to me because mental illness runs in my family. It also impacts what I should do in my own life to treat depression. For example, if the theory is correct it has a lot of ramifications about prescription medicine in general, among other things.

See here, for example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684129/#!po=18.3333

Yes, research in this area could lead to changes in medicine, and likely will. Does it impact the individual at all at this point in terms of practical medicine or managing mental health? No, not really.

For you personally, I think your focus should still be on finding a really good counsellor and seeing how you progress from there.

There's no mitochondrial function intervention that you can really look to as an alternative. If one comes about, then that will be enormously heavily publicized.

Any lifestyle modifications that propose to alter mitochondrial function are like anything else in the vague medicine space: theoretical and basically down to trial and error for the individual.

This is why I mentioned keto, because I've seen this doctor heavily associated with the crew that dramatically overstate the known impacts of ketogenic diets for, well, whatever it is that they claim keto diets can do.

Which again, maybe they can. It's just not true that they *know* that to the degree they tend to claim that they do.

Like everything, it's always a matter of trial and error, and that's true of even well established drugs and treatments.

No offense - but SSRI medications and therapy did not help my other family members much. I think these things are very useful, especially for certain individuals where depression is largely being driven by maladaptive thought patterns. In my case it feels more like a combination of maladaptive thought patterns combined with some sort of physiological issue causing chronic fatigue and depression.

I need a better understanding of mental illness. This is the whole reason I am retiring early. My aunts, cousins, mom, grandma, all became mentally ill in their early forties or late thirties.

I need to understand why....

Metalcat

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2022, 02:39:09 PM »
@Malcat - Do you have any academic textbook recommendations on mitochondrial functioning?

No. Research on mitochondrial function and it's impacts is still very basic. And I'm using the term "basic" in the scientific sense, not the colloquial sense, meaning we're still trying to understand the basics.

What it means in terms of actual complex function and behaviour is still a giant mystery.

Hence why I cringe at anyone claiming to directly claim it to be a causal source of complex behaviour.

Yes - the theory is a bit out there based on current scientific evidence, but the mechanisms and explanation and research he cites seems pretty sound...but this isn't my field of expertise. I am basically looking for a critical review of the theory from a medical doctor or professor of neuroscience, etc.

It's important to me because mental illness runs in my family. It also impacts what I should do in my own life to treat depression. For example, if the theory is correct it has a lot of ramifications about prescription medicine in general, among other things.

See here, for example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684129/#!po=18.3333

Yes, research in this area could lead to changes in medicine, and likely will. Does it impact the individual at all at this point in terms of practical medicine or managing mental health? No, not really.

For you personally, I think your focus should still be on finding a really good counsellor and seeing how you progress from there.

There's no mitochondrial function intervention that you can really look to as an alternative. If one comes about, then that will be enormously heavily publicized.

Any lifestyle modifications that propose to alter mitochondrial function are like anything else in the vague medicine space: theoretical and basically down to trial and error for the individual.

This is why I mentioned keto, because I've seen this doctor heavily associated with the crew that dramatically overstate the known impacts of ketogenic diets for, well, whatever it is that they claim keto diets can do.

Which again, maybe they can. It's just not true that they *know* that to the degree they tend to claim that they do.

Like everything, it's always a matter of trial and error, and that's true of even well established drugs and treatments.

No offense - but SSRI medications and therapy did not help my other family members much. I think these things are very useful, especially for certain individuals where depression is largely being driven by maladaptive thought patterns. In my case it feels more like a combination of maladaptive thought patterns combined with some sort of physiological issue causing chronic fatigue and depression.

I need a better understanding of mental illness. This is the whole reason I am retiring early. My aunts, cousins, mom, grandma, all became mentally ill in their early forties or late thirties.

I need to understand why....

???

I never sad anything about SSRIs, they've always been known to be hit and miss.

I said you should get good therapy. I know we have talked extensively about your desire to understand the basis of how your brain works, but you just aren't going to find definitive answers, but you WILL come to understand yourself, your own function, and how to manage it if you get really good therapy.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2022, 03:04:09 PM »
@Malcat - Do you have any academic textbook recommendations on mitochondrial functioning?

No. Research on mitochondrial function and it's impacts is still very basic. And I'm using the term "basic" in the scientific sense, not the colloquial sense, meaning we're still trying to understand the basics.

What it means in terms of actual complex function and behaviour is still a giant mystery.

Hence why I cringe at anyone claiming to directly claim it to be a causal source of complex behaviour.

Yes - the theory is a bit out there based on current scientific evidence, but the mechanisms and explanation and research he cites seems pretty sound...but this isn't my field of expertise. I am basically looking for a critical review of the theory from a medical doctor or professor of neuroscience, etc.

It's important to me because mental illness runs in my family. It also impacts what I should do in my own life to treat depression. For example, if the theory is correct it has a lot of ramifications about prescription medicine in general, among other things.

See here, for example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684129/#!po=18.3333

Yes, research in this area could lead to changes in medicine, and likely will. Does it impact the individual at all at this point in terms of practical medicine or managing mental health? No, not really.

For you personally, I think your focus should still be on finding a really good counsellor and seeing how you progress from there.

There's no mitochondrial function intervention that you can really look to as an alternative. If one comes about, then that will be enormously heavily publicized.

Any lifestyle modifications that propose to alter mitochondrial function are like anything else in the vague medicine space: theoretical and basically down to trial and error for the individual.

This is why I mentioned keto, because I've seen this doctor heavily associated with the crew that dramatically overstate the known impacts of ketogenic diets for, well, whatever it is that they claim keto diets can do.

Which again, maybe they can. It's just not true that they *know* that to the degree they tend to claim that they do.

Like everything, it's always a matter of trial and error, and that's true of even well established drugs and treatments.

No offense - but SSRI medications and therapy did not help my other family members much. I think these things are very useful, especially for certain individuals where depression is largely being driven by maladaptive thought patterns. In my case it feels more like a combination of maladaptive thought patterns combined with some sort of physiological issue causing chronic fatigue and depression.

I need a better understanding of mental illness. This is the whole reason I am retiring early. My aunts, cousins, mom, grandma, all became mentally ill in their early forties or late thirties.

I need to understand why....

???

I never sad anything about SSRIs, they've always been known to be hit and miss.

I said you should get good therapy. I know we have talked extensively about your desire to understand the basis of how your brain works, but you just aren't going to find definitive answers, but you WILL come to understand yourself, your own function, and how to manage it if you get really good therapy.

Sorry - my point is - I perhaps do not have that much faith in therapy. Most of the people in my family have been in therapy, including myself. It helps - but I'm not sure if it is the answer I'm looking for.

Therapy seems to resolve maladaptive thought patterns very well, which could be a contributing or the primary cause of many mental illnesses due to the associated stress, cortisol release, etc.

I don't think all mental illnesses are caused by maladaptive thought patterns...I think mine is being driven by low energy levels and fatigue, imo. Thus I am now chasing things related to energy production in the body and brain.

Psychstache

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2022, 03:09:07 PM »

No offense - but SSRI medications and therapy did not help my other family members much. I think these things are very useful, especially for certain individuals where depression is largely being driven by maladaptive thought patterns. In my case it feels more like a combination of maladaptive thought patterns combined with some sort of physiological issue causing chronic fatigue and depression.

I need a better understanding of mental illness. This is the whole reason I am retiring early. My aunts, cousins, mom, grandma, all became mentally ill in their early forties or late thirties.

I need to understand why....

You need a better understanding of how mental health challenges will impact you, not some grand insight.

I don't know much about Dr. Palmer, but one thing that stood out to me was his twitter banner (which presumably he and his team chose) states "All mental illnesses stem from the same root cause." A statement with that level of certainty sounds like what comes from people trying to sell books and systems than a dedicated expert in a field. The more definitively you make claims, the less likely I am to trust in your expertise. Especially in something as multivaried and complex as mental health.

I've worked in the mental health field for about 15 years, and have lost track of the number of times someone has come along with a book and a theory of everything to solve mental health issues. They have all gone away like dust in the wind, though I am sure their bank accounts got pretty well padded first with book tours, clinical workshops, etc.

For reference to my quote:

https://twitter.com/ChrisPalmerMD?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


Psychstache

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2022, 03:16:12 PM »
Sorry - my point is - I perhaps do not have that much faith in therapy. Most of the people in my family have been in therapy, including myself. It helps - but I'm not sure if it is the answer I'm looking for.

Therapy seems to resolve maladaptive thought patterns very well, which could be a contributing or the primary cause of many mental illnesses due to the associated stress, cortisol release, etc.

I don't think all mental illnesses are caused by maladaptive thought patterns...I think mine is being driven by low energy levels and fatigue, imo. Thus I am now chasing things related to energy production in the body and brain.

The challenge with therapy is that by far the biggest single factor of therapeutic efficacy is provider-client connection. It generally requires a willingness to meet and 'try out' lots of different therapists/counselors to find someone who is a good match for you as a client. People who try one therapist and go on to say things like "therapy doesn't work" are, to me, like the dudes who marry their first girlfriend who ends up divorcing them who go around saying "all women are evil bitches who just after your money".

There is evidence to suggest that improved physical health reduces symptoms of some mental health conditions such as anxiety and depression. If you think fatigue and low energy are the primary issue for you, why not look at finding a personal trainer or workout accountability partner? Like Malcat was saying, you don't really need to understand why something works if you have evidence that it works.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2022, 03:32:11 PM »

No offense - but SSRI medications and therapy did not help my other family members much. I think these things are very useful, especially for certain individuals where depression is largely being driven by maladaptive thought patterns. In my case it feels more like a combination of maladaptive thought patterns combined with some sort of physiological issue causing chronic fatigue and depression.

I need a better understanding of mental illness. This is the whole reason I am retiring early. My aunts, cousins, mom, grandma, all became mentally ill in their early forties or late thirties.

I need to understand why....

You need a better understanding of how mental health challenges will impact you, not some grand insight.

I don't know much about Dr. Palmer, but one thing that stood out to me was his twitter banner (which presumably he and his team chose) states "All mental illnesses stem from the same root cause." A statement with that level of certainty sounds like what comes from people trying to sell books and systems than a dedicated expert in a field. The more definitively you make claims, the less likely I am to trust in your expertise. Especially in something as multivaried and complex as mental health.

I've worked in the mental health field for about 15 years, and have lost track of the number of times someone has come along with a book and a theory of everything to solve mental health issues. They have all gone away like dust in the wind, though I am sure their bank accounts got pretty well padded first with book tours, clinical workshops, etc.

For reference to my quote:

https://twitter.com/ChrisPalmerMD?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Admittingly - if this is what I saw first I would come to the same conclusions. He is doing some things and saying some things for marketing purposes for sure.

The theory is outlandish...but he does make some very compelling arguments. I don't know enough about mitochondrial function and how it relates to neuronal activity to refute the claims. Thus why I made this thread.

In my experience the most helpful thing for me has not been therapy - it has been exercise, fish oil, creatine, and positive relationships. I have tried many many things...

I'm in no way against therapy in general...

Completely unrelated, are you a US based therapist?

Psychstache

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2022, 11:27:13 AM »
Completely unrelated, are you a US based therapist?

Yes, but I am not currently working as a practitioner. I am currently doing administration work and graduate program teaching.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2022, 06:53:12 AM »
@Malcat

Sorry - maybe I should be more specific in my questions. It doesn't matter to me what the causal mechanisms are.

What I'm trying to understand is two things:

1.) Does the ketogenic diet help with depression or mental illness in general? How about just reducing carbs and lowering blood sugar levels in general? Or is this idea completely quacky?

2.) Will various supplements that help with mitochondrial functioning improve symptoms of depression or mental illness? Are there any specific ones you would recommend? CoQ10?

As you know mental illness runs in my family heavily, so understanding the various treatment options is very important to me. My own biological mother is extremely mentally ill.

I know therapy is very beneficial - but not everyone can afford therapy, especially in America. Also - more importantly - not all mental illnesses can be fixed with therapy. There are other causes besides just 'this person has maladaptive thoughts'.

Most everyone in my biological family are completely broke and live in horrible conditions. I am the only one with money and good health...So there are reasons for this line of research for me.

Thanks.

Metalcat

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2022, 07:02:31 AM »
@Malcat

Sorry - maybe I should be more specific in my questions. It doesn't matter to me what the causal mechanisms are.

What I'm trying to understand is two things:

1.) Does the ketogenic diet help with depression or mental illness in general? How about just reducing carbs and lowering blood sugar levels in general? Or is this idea completely quacky?

Maybe, possibly, hard to say and impossible to research effectively. Diet modification should be a go-to thing for everyone to try when managing a chronic condition though. Whether it's an elimination diet or keto or whatever. Everyone with any kind of chronic issue should be experimenting an N=1 of figuring out what diet works best for them.

2.) Will various supplements that help with mitochondrial functioning improve symptoms of depression or mental illness? Are there any specific ones you would recommend? CoQ10?

Maybe, possibly, maybe not. But no, I would not expect any dietary supplement alone to make a substantial difference in mental health function. Diet overall is a HUGE factor in everyone's life. Individual dietary supplements are drops in the bucket.

Overall health habits like daily diet, exercise, etc will have much more impact. 


As you know mental illness runs in my family heavily, so understanding the various treatment options is very important to me. My own biological mother is extremely mentally ill.

I know therapy is very beneficial - but not everyone can afford therapy, especially in America. Also - more importantly - not all mental illnesses can be fixed with therapy. There are other causes besides just 'this person has maladaptive thoughts'.

Therapy is a critical element for managing mental illness, even those that require pharmaceutical or surgical intervention. It sucks that it is not affordable, but there is no supplement that can substitute for it. There are decent mental health apps though that can carry some of the load.

Most everyone in my biological family are completely broke and live in horrible conditions. I am the only one with money and good health...So there are reasons for this line of research for me.

Thanks.

I know you keep looking for a clear explanation of things, but as I keep saying, the research just doesn't actually exist, nor does a simple solution.

Mental health is part of global health, and maintaining global health is A LOT of work.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Brain Energy by Dr. Christopher Palmer
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2022, 07:40:08 AM »
@Malcat

Sorry - maybe I should be more specific in my questions. It doesn't matter to me what the causal mechanisms are.

What I'm trying to understand is two things:

1.) Does the ketogenic diet help with depression or mental illness in general? How about just reducing carbs and lowering blood sugar levels in general? Or is this idea completely quacky?

Maybe, possibly, hard to say and impossible to research effectively. Diet modification should be a go-to thing for everyone to try when managing a chronic condition though. Whether it's an elimination diet or keto or whatever. Everyone with any kind of chronic issue should be experimenting an N=1 of figuring out what diet works best for them.

2.) Will various supplements that help with mitochondrial functioning improve symptoms of depression or mental illness? Are there any specific ones you would recommend? CoQ10?

Maybe, possibly, maybe not. But no, I would not expect any dietary supplement alone to make a substantial difference in mental health function. Diet overall is a HUGE factor in everyone's life. Individual dietary supplements are drops in the bucket.

Overall health habits like daily diet, exercise, etc will have much more impact. 


As you know mental illness runs in my family heavily, so understanding the various treatment options is very important to me. My own biological mother is extremely mentally ill.

I know therapy is very beneficial - but not everyone can afford therapy, especially in America. Also - more importantly - not all mental illnesses can be fixed with therapy. There are other causes besides just 'this person has maladaptive thoughts'.

Therapy is a critical element for managing mental illness, even those that require pharmaceutical or surgical intervention. It sucks that it is not affordable, but there is no supplement that can substitute for it. There are decent mental health apps though that can carry some of the load.

Most everyone in my biological family are completely broke and live in horrible conditions. I am the only one with money and good health...So there are reasons for this line of research for me.

Thanks.

I know you keep looking for a clear explanation of things, but as I keep saying, the research just doesn't actually exist, nor does a simple solution.

Mental health is part of global health, and maintaining global health is A LOT of work.

Thank you.

I understand there is no clear explanation of things. In my own attempt to treat my own depression it has been very much a step by step journey of improvement that has taken years of slow trial and error.

I have noticed with fasting and reducing carb intake that at first I feel horrible, but then the next day I feel much better after going back to normal eating. So my next steps have been reducing sugar and simple carb intake.

I took CoQ10 once and had some truly wild nightmares...I am going to try taking some mitochondrial supplements one at a time for a few weeks at a time and see what effects I experience. This is how I have improved - just by trying things one at a time for a few weeks and keeping what works. I have learned a lot about what does not work and a little about what does, in my n=1 trials.

Can you elaborate on the mental health apps? Interestingly the same family members that can't afford therapy all have smartphones. They are often very paranoid as well - especially toward any sort of health professional, and especially a therapist, which is another reason therapy isn't an option unfortunately...

Again - you have always been very helpful - thank you for the time you have spent on the forum responding to people.