Author Topic: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club  (Read 19020 times)

Kris

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2020, 04:41:06 PM »
Speaking of other Austen works... we're almost done with our time with Sense and Sensibility! That means we get to move on to our next read.

Unless folks have strong protests otherwise, I'd like to suggest we move through the works in chronological order, which means that our next book would be Pride and Prejudice. I'd also like to stick with our two month discussion time -- I know it's slow, but that makes it easy to fit these books into our busy lives, and I'm really personally enjoying how deep we get to dig into these with the slower pace.

There are multiple versions of Pride and Prejudice available on Project Gutenberg for those looking for a free e-book; here is one.

Wow, that went really quickly! I think the chronological order makes sense.

ixtap

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2020, 04:44:18 PM »
Wherein Mustachians Question a Truth Universally Acknowledged...

diapasoun

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2020, 05:04:38 PM »
Wherein Mustachians Question a Truth Universally Acknowledged...

... that a person in possession of a credit card must max it.

(please add yr own)

mspym

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2020, 06:00:24 PM »
In summary, all three marriages made in S&S have each partipant ending up with the correct partner. Silly as they are, Lucy and Robert will end up having a very silly marriage that is no worse than any other aristo marriage at the time and likely to be happier than most, given how dedicated Lucy is to her own self interests.

pachnik

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2020, 08:30:59 PM »
Speaking of other Austen works... we're almost done with our time with Sense and Sensibility! That means we get to move on to our next read.

Unless folks have strong protests otherwise, I'd like to suggest we move through the works in chronological order, which means that our next book would be Pride and Prejudice. I'd also like to stick with our two month discussion time -- I know it's slow, but that makes it easy to fit these books into our busy lives, and I'm really personally enjoying how deep we get to dig into these with the slower pace.

I like the idea of going through the novels in chronological order.  :)

tygertygertyger

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2020, 09:04:10 AM »
I did find it interesting that Elinor and Edward got engaged BEFORE they had the money thing figured out - especially after the entire rest of the book talked about how difficult it would be to marry on no money! Quite including his own recent engagement. His parish gig wasn't anywhere enough until his mom relented and gave him dollars. But Elinor and Marianne did end up with the exact amounts of money they each thought would be needed for a good life, so a happy ending for all.

SweetRedWine

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2020, 01:26:28 PM »
This is a really great discussion!

I've read all the books several times before, and it's so neat to hear what everyone is noticing!

mspym

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2020, 01:37:46 PM »
@tygertygertyger I don't know if the parish living wasn't enough to marry on. It was £400 a year for 2 people and a free house, so about what Elinor's family were living on. The extra money from his money just took them into "comfortable" territory.

ixtap

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2020, 02:10:25 PM »
@tygertygertyger I don't know if the parish living wasn't enough to marry on. It was £400 a year for 2 people and a free house, so about what Elinor's family were living on. The extra money from his money just took them into "comfortable" territory.

At 200 pounds a year, it is even more stretched than the current situation and his patron didn't seem willing to entertain the idea that he could attempt to support a wife with the living as is, and though it would be "capable of improvement,"  seemed doubtful it could ever support a family. A living was basically the rights to the donations and lesser tithes, as well as a parsonage. Brandon made it seem that the parsonage itself would need to be improved to be fit for habitation, at the vicar's own cost, as well as doing the things a good vicar does to improve the local welfare, thus increasing the lesser tithes to make the annual income more comfortable. Part of this is just being involved enough with the community to know whether or not they were giving their full tithe.

englishteacheralex

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2020, 03:11:33 PM »
Typically vicars did have to make their own improvements to their parsonages. That's why Mr. Collins is always so full of excitement about Lady Catherine's improvements to his parsonage--it was rare.

BTW Lady Catherine is a character I think really gets shafted by Jane Austen. She's one of the few female characters in Austen who has money, power and prestige without having to marry for it (Emma also comes to mind) but Austen makes her ridiculous. I have a fantasy of writing a fan fic a la Wicked in which Lady Catherine gets to tell her side of the story about that little upstart, Lizzy Bennet.

mspym

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2020, 03:27:47 PM »
Ah my mistake, thanks for the pick up @ixtap, £200 p.a. is tight if you are hoping to maintain one's gentility and or support a gentle wife. A maid of all work instead of a man and a parlour maid (hat-tip Mrs Jennings.)

ixtap

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2020, 03:29:53 PM »
Typically vicars did have to make their own improvements to their parsonages. That's why Mr. Collins is always so full of excitement about Lady Catherine's improvements to his parsonage--it was rare.

BTW Lady Catherine is a character I think really gets shafted by Jane Austen. She's one of the few female characters in Austen who has money, power and prestige without having to marry for it (Emma also comes to mind) but Austen makes her ridiculous. I have a fantasy of writing a fan fic a la Wicked in which Lady Catherine gets to tell her side of the story about that little upstart, Lizzy Bennet.

As I recall, Lady Catherine didn't make improvements, she told Collins what he should do to spend his money on improvements (suggestions, he called it). And it is generally acknowledged that she did indeed inherit her estate from her late husband. Although the styling of "Lady Catherine" suggests that she was born with a title, that did not necessarily bring much money. Austen is rarely kind to the titled. Darcy's estate is probably even bigger, but its cool, because he doesn't have a title to go with it, since it was his mother that was born to that class, rather than his father. Austen may be willing to explore the foibles of the landed gentry, but they are redeemable, while the titled are pretty much on their own, with Anne being the exception that proves the rule.

englishteacheralex

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2020, 04:07:23 PM »
Lady Catherine made the improvements according to my giant annotated P&P, which goes into great detail about the circumstances of the clergy. I have to reread the annotated version to prepare to teach it again this year in January, so the timing of the thread is fortuitous. I always have to refresh my memory on this stuff. The problem is that if I get too excited I become unbearably pedantic and spend way too much time blathering on.

ixtap

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2020, 04:23:21 PM »
Lady Catherine made the improvements according to my giant annotated P&P, which goes into great detail about the circumstances of the clergy. I have to reread the annotated version to prepare to teach it again this year in January, so the timing of the thread is fortuitous. I always have to refresh my memory on this stuff. The problem is that if I get too excited I become unbearably pedantic and spend way too much time blathering on.

"She [...] had once paid him a visit in his humble parsonage, where she had perfectly approved all the alterations he had been making, and had even vouchsafed to suggest some herself–some shelves in the closet upstairs.”

He is fawning over her for approving of what he has done and making suggestions, rather than her making any investment. His proof that she is generous is that she has had him to dinner twice, not that she is helping out with his living quarters with anything but words.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 04:30:06 PM by ixtap »

Zoot

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2020, 07:45:39 PM »
There is a suggestion in a conversation between Darcy and Elizabeth that Lady Catherine did contribute to the improvement of the parsonage (Chapter 32, according to the e-text I'm consulting):

Quote from: Jane Austen
He took the hint, and soon began with, “This seems a very comfortable house. Lady Catherine, I believe, did a great deal to it when Mr. Collins first came to Hunsford.”

“I believe she did—and I am sure she could not have bestowed her kindness on a more grateful object.”
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 07:49:05 PM by Zoot »

ixtap

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2020, 08:26:35 PM »
There is a suggestion in a conversation between Darcy and Elizabeth that Lady Catherine did contribute to the improvement of the parsonage (Chapter 32, according to the e-text I'm consulting):

Quote from: Jane Austen
He took the hint, and soon began with, “This seems a very comfortable house. Lady Catherine, I believe, did a great deal to it when Mr. Collins first came to Hunsford.”

“I believe she did—and I am sure she could not have bestowed her kindness on a more grateful object.”

Interesting contrast that puts even more emphasis on Collins' questionable gratitude, in that case...

Raenia

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #116 on: January 01, 2021, 05:15:25 PM »
Do we have a scheduled start for Mansfield Park?

diapasoun

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2021, 09:03:15 PM »
Mansfield Park will be in February and March, unless there are objections.

I'm just finally starting Pride and Prejudice after a long vacation not paying attention to roughly anything. I look forward to some laser like book focus...

pachnik

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2021, 08:00:57 AM »
Mansfield Park will be in February and March, unless there are objections.

I'm just finally starting Pride and Prejudice after a long vacation not paying attention to roughly anything. I look forward to some laser like book focus...

It sounds like you had a good break, Diapasoun. 

+1 to Mansfield Park in Feb. and March.

Raenia

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2021, 08:22:59 AM »
Mansfield Park will be in February and March, unless there are objections.

I'm just finally starting Pride and Prejudice after a long vacation not paying attention to roughly anything. I look forward to some laser like book focus...

Sounds good to me!  Enjoy P&P :)

asauer

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #120 on: March 08, 2021, 05:43:09 PM »
Is it to late to join this?  I can't believe I missed so much!

diapasoun

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #121 on: March 08, 2021, 09:35:12 PM »
Oh heck yeah! I might uh... even read a book this month, if work manages to not eat me. >.>

Raenia

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2021, 06:04:42 PM »
So I finally got ahold of Mansfield Park - only a month late!  I accidentally requested "Jane Austen's Mansfield Park" at first, which is apparently a collection of essays about the book.  So I had to return that and re-request the right one.

Anybody else still in?

pachnik

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #123 on: April 10, 2021, 08:50:55 AM »
Count me in.  I just started Mansfield Park.   And have gotten into a bit of the lay of the land so to speak.   

Three sisters - Maria marries very well even though her dowry was only 7,000 pounds.  Miss Ward marries Reverend Norris and they have an income of 1,000 pounds which is fine since they don't have any kids.  And then Miss Frances who marries an army man and becomes Mrs. Price.  She's the poor relation. 


Raenia

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2021, 11:57:11 AM »
I like to put all the numbers in an inflation calculator for reference.  The book was published in 1923

The Norris' 1000 pounds -> 61,940 in 2020 GBP -> 85,000 USD
Maria's dowry of 7k GBP -> 433k 2020 GBP -> 594k USD

Pretty solid amounts, by modern middle class standards.

Zoot

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #125 on: April 11, 2021, 09:22:58 AM »
I like to put all the numbers in an inflation calculator for reference.  The book was published in 1923

The Norris' 1000 pounds -> 61,940 in 2020 GBP -> 85,000 USD
Maria's dowry of 7k GBP -> 433k 2020 GBP -> 594k USD

Pretty solid amounts, by modern middle class standards.

Mansfield Park was originally published in 1814, so if you used 1923, the amounts would likely be even higher.

Raenia

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #126 on: April 11, 2021, 04:54:25 PM »
I like to put all the numbers in an inflation calculator for reference.  The book was published in 1923

The Norris' 1000 pounds -> 61,940 in 2020 GBP -> 85,000 USD
Maria's dowry of 7k GBP -> 433k 2020 GBP -> 594k USD

Pretty solid amounts, by modern middle class standards.

Mansfield Park was originally published in 1814, so if you used 1923, the amounts would likely be even higher.

How strange, my copy lists the original copyright as 1923.  I've corrected the numbers below using 1814 - the numbers actually aren't that different, as inflation was very low for much of the nineteenth century.

1000 pounds ->81,436.62 GBP -> 111,625.58 USD
5000 pounds ->570,056.34 GBP ->781,379.08 USD

Zoot

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2021, 09:36:50 AM »
These figures really bring home the significance of some of the other numbers cited in Austen's works.  Georgiana Darcy, for instance, is said to have a fortune of 30,000 pounds--roughly $4.6 million according to the revised numbers.  Darcy's 10,000 pounds per annum would translate to an income of $1.5 million a year, while Mr. Bennet's 2,000 pounds per annum yields about $312K per year--respectable, but not in the same league as Darcy or even Bingley (whose 5,000 a year translates to $781K).  Miss King, whom Wickham drops Elizabeth to pursue, has a fortune of 10,000 pounds, making her worth that same $1.5 million.

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #128 on: April 12, 2021, 10:14:14 AM »
Well...

Inflation calculators are quite an oversimplification when you're talking about a time period 220 years ago. Historical cost of living was very different from today's numbers. Goods, food, and clothing were all much more expensive, while labor was quite cheap. It is more instructive to think of relative income--look at what the various families across Austen's landscape have to live on and make assumptions based on that.

IIRRC, my annotated copy of Pride and Prejudice says to think of Mr. Bingley's income (5k pounds per year) as ~250,000-300,000 pounds per year in today's currency. Mr. Darcy's income of 10k pounds/year would be ~500k-700k pounds/year, which would make him in the top 10% of wealth in Britain at the time.

Miss King has an inheritance of 10k pounds (NOT per year--that was the total principal that she had), which would be a decently attractive sum of money but not really in the same league as Darcy/Bingley.

Zoot

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2021, 11:31:53 AM »
Well...

Inflation calculators are quite an oversimplification when you're talking about a time period 220 years ago. Historical cost of living was very different from today's numbers. Goods, food, and clothing were all much more expensive, while labor was quite cheap. It is more instructive to think of relative income--look at what the various families across Austen's landscape have to live on and make assumptions based on that.

IIRRC, my annotated copy of Pride and Prejudice says to think of Mr. Bingley's income (5k pounds per year) as ~250,000-300,000 pounds per year in today's currency. Mr. Darcy's income of 10k pounds/year would be ~500k-700k pounds/year, which would make him in the top 10% of wealth in Britain at the time.

Miss King has an inheritance of 10k pounds (NOT per year--that was the total principal that she had), which would be a decently attractive sum of money but not really in the same league as Darcy/Bingley.

Yup, with you 100% on relative income.  It's hard to parse the numbers from a modern mindset, because the difference between 10,000 (Darcy) and 5,000 (Bingley) or even 2,000 (Bennet household) isn't that great--it's more helpful to think of it in relative terms.  Knowing Darcy's income is 5x the Bennet household's puts things in perspective.

Also with you on Miss King's fortune being 10K "static" pounds, not annual income; the pattern I see is that women's financial situation was always cited as a flat amount (yielding an income of 4% of that flat amount per year), while men's financial status was cited as annual income, not a flat amount.  Again, helpful to think of in relative terms--Miss King's fortune was 10x what Elizabeth would someday inherit, and Georgiana's was 30x.

(edited: punctuation)

Raenia

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #130 on: April 16, 2021, 10:21:29 AM »
So far the main thing I'm noticing in this book, financially, is the characterization of Mrs. Norris.  She thinks she's being sensibly frugal, but she's actually cheap.  Happy to volunteer other people's money for Fanny's care and future, but shocked when anyone asks her to contribute.  Coming up to Mansfield not because she wants company, but so she doesn't have to order a dinner that day.  Totally supportive of the planned expenses for the play, as long as she's not expected to help out.

There was a passage early on that I'm having trouble finding again, to the effect that if she had had children, she might have got used to spending all their income and never saved a penny, but having instead gotten in the habit of putting some by, she never liked to spend it, even once she was living alone and comfortable.  I think this happens to a lot of FIREees, early on in RE - it's hard to change from a savings mindset to a spending mindset.  We have to work to overcome the aversion to taking money out of savings, and seeing the balances go down.

MarciaB

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #131 on: June 21, 2021, 09:47:45 PM »
I love the character of Mrs. Noris. Her penny pinching ways and her pinched heart always amuse me.

And I got a huge kick out of the fact that in the Harry Potter novels Mr. filch’s cat was named Mrs. Noris. The cat would roam the halls at night and find students out of their beds, or would wander around looking for students to tattle on to Mr. Filch.

mspym

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2021, 06:22:35 PM »
I am about 80% of the way through Mansfield Park. My goodness, Mrs Norris is one of the great characters of English Lit. She's so utterly recognisable and horrid. I think anytime you find yourself wondering "is this frugal or is this cheap?", you could safely ask yourself What Would Mrs Norris Do and then just do the opposite of whatever the answer is. I also appreciate the part where Austen compares her to Mrs Price and says that while Mrs Price was forced to be
Quote
"a manager by necessity, without any of Mrs. Norris's inclination for it, or any of her activity. Her disposition was naturally easy and indolent, like Lady Bertram's; and a situation of similar affluence and do-nothingness would have been much more suited to her capacity than the exertions and self-denials of the one which her imprudent marriage had placed her in. She might have made just as good a woman of consequence as Lady Bertram, but Mrs. Norris would have been a more respectable mother of nine children on a small income."

Leaving aside Antigua and where there wealth comes from, there is an interesting component to Sir Thomas deciding to send Fanny back to her parents for a visit in the hope that she will learn to appreciate the advantages of marriage to Mr Crawford. It forefronts marriage as the primary career for women - look what happens if you make a mistake in your choice/are too nice in your expectations - but it also is a bit of a betrayal of the initial deal by deliberately bringing up how at the mercy of her rich uncle Fanny really is. Its very "nice life you've got here, shame if anything were to happen to it..." as if Fanny has not already been extremely cogniscant of what she owed to the Bertrams and had not already paid it back 100x over by her service to her aunts. To my eyes, this seems like transforming what should have been a gift into an obligation.

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2021, 12:34:00 AM »
I suspect that analysis of the book has been glossing over where Sir Thomas's wealth comes from for the last 200 years.  I need to watch out for that while re-reading.

Marriage as a woman's career is definitely a major theme of the book: the whole premise is set up by the different marriages of the three sisters, which then follows through to the different situations and expectations of the next generation.

Thank you for posting - I have been neglecting my re-read of this.  I always thought that Fanny tended to get a bad press as being passive and uninteresting compared to other Austen heroines - given her situation I think she made the best of a bad job and any alternative behaviours open to her would have been worse for her and her relatives.  I'll be interested to see if that judgement holds up on a re-read.

mspym

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2021, 01:18:00 AM »
@former player there are some interesting academic papers out there on the Antigua connection and slavery and the sugar trade were hot topics in Austen's time so I don't think it's accidental.

I am really appreciating this reread of Mansfield Park, previously I have felt strongly chided by the book, because I'm more a mildly thoughtless Mary Crawford-type. But this time through, I have been thinking what if the point of the book is how strongly Fanny aligns with the popular ideals of womanhood at that time? She's unswervingly moral, thoughtful and modest, physically frail, a grateful and dutiful niece - all of which results in a heroine who has been disliked for centuries. Careful what you wish for?

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2021, 02:43:56 AM »
Fanny's actions are restrained, I'm not so sure that her thoughts are - I had the impression that those actions didn't necessarily come naturally to her but are ones she imposed on herself after careful consideration of her and her family's situation - Austen makes the evils of her situation clear and I need to re-read to see if, as I think, she does so through Fanny's observation of the situation.

mspym

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Re: Austen With A Mustachian Twist! Ongoing Book Club
« Reply #136 on: July 16, 2021, 03:16:48 AM »
The standard heroine/protagonist is one who is *active* and takes control of the situation to create an outcome, even as these qualities were decried as "unfeminine". Closer to Maria and Julia Bertram in fact. By contrast, Fanny is endurance and outward acceptance and much more closely aligned to model "feminine" behaviours. Fanny's actions are restrained even when her internal life is not. It is pretty clear though that she started out gentle and unassuming and then gets thoroughly crushed by Mrs Norris and the Bertrams, with even the mildest opinion being taken as wild bumptiousness and selfishness. It feels a little like her ability to endure an intolerable situation (and win!) is a reproach to the unfair circumstances and commentary on the reader's imagined comparison on how they would behave in the same situation.