Author Topic: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?  (Read 1304 times)

roomtempmayo

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We have a toddler, and we may end up sending her to private elementary school in three years.

A couple of the potential schools could be described as putting a high sticker price on their tuition ($20-30k), but then also advertising the fact that they aggressively discount it (i.e. "we give out many million in need based aid annually").  While they're very public about the fact that many/most students aren't paying sticker, they aren't public about how they determine their discounts/awards.

Can anyone help me understand what's normal?

What I'm thinking is that I'd like to make sure I'm doing what I can with our income and tax situation these next couple of years to optimize any eventual award.

The intuitive thing to do is hoard cash now and then maximize our deferred comp in the tax year before applying to lower our income as much as possible, but sometimes the intuitive thing isn't the right thing.

And are they going to go on a single year, or want to dig back two or more years?

Do these awards tend to lock in for the life of attendance, or are they redone every year?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 12:03:16 PM by roomtempmayo »

Morning Glory

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2023, 11:55:07 AM »
Are you talking about k-12 or college?

My college was like that and they had in house financial aid people who were very good. It was recalculated every year based on previous year's income. I made just above the cutoff for one of my grants once and they found me another one that was almost as much.  I have no idea on the tax stuff because it's been too long, but I think Fafsa goes back 2 years.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2023, 11:58:03 AM »
Are you talking about k-12 or college?

K-12.  Edited to clarify.

She would likely start kindergarten in three years.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 12:03:45 PM by roomtempmayo »

lhamo

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2023, 02:50:01 PM »
Call (from somebody else's number if you are worried about outing yourself) and ask.

Get somebody to pick up an application/financial aid packet and see what it entails.

Network with families who have enrolled in the school and try to find the ones who got aid.  Learn about their financial situation.

FWIW, I was just looking at low income discounts of various sorts for my area, and it seems that there is an increasing trend of making anybody who is eligible for certain gvt programs (e,g, Medicaid, Food Stamps, free school lunch) also eligible for all kinds of other things.  This is the case for FAFSA now for college, too.  Those programs are usually based on taxable income reported to the IRS. 

roomtempmayo

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2023, 08:14:29 PM »
@lhamo Thanks, I do know people to ask, but it's hypothetical enough at this point that I don't really want it going around our friend group that we're sending her somewhere when we very well may not.

I was able to answer some of my own questions in a general way, which I'll put below for anyone interested.

- There's a financial aid form shared by lots of private schools called the Parents' Financial Statement (PFS).  This is run by School and Student Services, and can be submitted to multiple schools at once.

- The PFS is similar to the CSS Profile many private colleges use.  It gets at home equity, retirement accounts, investment properties, and even down to equity in cars.

- The good news is that the PFS only requires one 1040, along with current pay stubs.  It doesn't appear that they're looking back multiple years on income.

secondcor521

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2023, 12:22:37 AM »
I'm not sure how applicable my experience will be.

I sent all three of my kids to private high school.  One of them went on to a private (out of state, FAFSA based) university.  The other two went to in state public universities.  One of the kids also went to private K, 3rd, and 4th.

I also, FWIW, attended public K-12, an Ivy, out of state private, and in state public university.

Generally private schools reevaluate the family's financial situation each year.  FAFSA is based on prior prior year, but it's still a year-by-year evaluation.  They do this because family financial situations can change, sometimes significantly, over time and that's the fairest way to do it for all of the families involved at that school.

It's probably going to end up being a sliding scale for you, with income being considered more heavily than assets since most schools figure on being paid out of cash flow.  So the more you make, the more you'll pay.  K-12 private schools are expensive and consider themselves a luxury item, so what they think you can afford will probably be more than what you think is affordable.

Most private schools have discounts for second, third, etc. kids in case that might apply.

Most K-12 schools increase in price as the kids get older, and sports and extracurricular activities probably come with additional fees.  It would be wise to look at the price tag for all 12 years before you start.

Public K-12 schools have better gifted and talented programs than private, which is a bit of a surprise, but it's because there are more kids and they'll have enough to have a separate class.  There can also be more options at public K-12 simply because there are more kids.  One of the private HS my kids went to only had maybe 1/4 of the sports of public, no band, and very limited orchestra.

On the other hand, private K-12 the kids can get kicked out for bad behavior, so that is less.  Also, most kids at private K-12 at least have parental pressure to do well and be college bound.  In smaller K-12 private schools, there can be more individualized attention and more unique types of education - my middle one went to an IB school and has his IB diploma.

If you want financial assistance, you can expect to fill out that PFS or equivalent form every year.  In my experience, it'll be due every year the summer before school starts and probably is based on the prior calendar year tax return and current balance sheet.  If you're getting significant aid, it would not surprise me if you went through a verification process where they confirm everything (this happens to my kids with FAFSA frequently).

If you're looking at multiple kids, or private university and/or grad school for the one, I'd take a look at whether or not you think you can and will choose to afford private school the whole way through for everyone or not.  If not, perhaps consider where private school makes the most difference.  My personal opinion is that private K-6 or so is probably not a good value, especially for gifted kids.  It's feasible to switch them into private for 7-12 and the high school years are probably the best bang for the buck because that's what colleges look at.

Overall in my personal experience and evaluating that of my sisters, my three kids, and my six nephews and nieces, private is better on an absolute basis but not on a bang-for-the-buck basis.  In my case the Ivy was a particularly poor value due to it being a poor fit for me (lots of culture shock).

Private universities regularly give out $10K or $20K or so in "scholarships" which are really just tuition discounts / price differentiators / sliding scales.  The private high schools I knew didn't do this, although one of them did seem to have a policy of about 5% of the student body being "charity cases" where the families couldn't afford to send their kids there but the kids were unique or special in some way and so the school effectively sponsored them.

Of course, everyone around you will have a variety of opinions on all of this.  You have my 2 cents, worth what you paid for it probably.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2023, 12:27:10 AM by secondcor521 »

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2023, 06:39:06 AM »

A couple of the potential schools could be described as putting a high sticker price on their tuition ($20-30k), but then also advertising the fact that they aggressively discount it (i.e. "we give out many million in need based aid annually").  While they're very public about the fact that many/most students aren't paying sticker, they aren't public about how they determine their discounts/awards.

Can anyone help me understand what's normal?

Private schools vary so much that I'm not sure you can classify anything as "normal."  My limited experience has been just the opposite of the above.  The school had more applicants than it could accept every year and turned away students whose families were willing to pay full tuition, so there wasn't any interest in giving discounts.
 I think they limited financial aid to siblings (limited) and to bring diversity to the student body (very generous). 

If you get serious about specific schools, you may want to look into associated costs (trips, for example) and the expectations in terms of participation in school events and contributions to school fundraising efforts.  These can be substantial.     

lhamo

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2023, 07:44:36 AM »
Another thing to consider about private schools -- who will their peer group be and what will the expectations be around spending.  Our kids rubbed elbows with some truly wealthy kids at their private schools in Beijing (one of my son's friends was the child of a famous Chinese movie director) and my nephew is about to set off to work on a dive boat owned by his trust-funded friend.  I have vivid memories of my daughter coming home from a sleepover at a friend's fancy villa in the suburbs and complaining about why we "only" lived in an apartment (a 2000+ sq ft luxury apartment that eventually funded FIRE for us when we sold it).  Another friend of our son's (not the movie mogul one) had something like 10 sports cars in their massive garage.  We were fortunate that our kids didn't push back too much on our MUCH more frugal ways, but they certainly were exposed to much different lifestyles than ours and sometimes resented us for not being as spendy as their friends' parents. 

On the other side, once we moved back here our daughter went to the local public schools and her high school was one of the more economically diverse in the city.  I think she learned a lot through that experience.   She still has wealthy friends, but also has friends whose families are more on the economic edge. 

secondcor521

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2023, 08:05:46 AM »
Another thing to consider about private schools -- who will their peer group be and what will the expectations be around spending.  Our kids rubbed elbows with some truly wealthy kids at their private schools in Beijing (one of my son's friends was the child of a famous Chinese movie director) and my nephew is about to set off to work on a dive boat owned by his trust-funded friend.  I have vivid memories of my daughter coming home from a sleepover at a friend's fancy villa in the suburbs and complaining about why we "only" lived in an apartment (a 2000+ sq ft luxury apartment that eventually funded FIRE for us when we sold it).  Another friend of our son's (not the movie mogul one) had something like 10 sports cars in their massive garage.  We were fortunate that our kids didn't push back too much on our MUCH more frugal ways, but they certainly were exposed to much different lifestyles than ours and sometimes resented us for not being as spendy as their friends' parents. 

On the other side, once we moved back here our daughter went to the local public schools and her high school was one of the more economically diverse in the city.  I think she learned a lot through that experience.   She still has wealthy friends, but also has friends whose families are more on the economic edge.

Similar experience here.  My kid went from us being on the more well-off side of things when attending the local public school, to rubbing elbows with kids living in $XXM houses and flying home internationally to Russia or Dubai for Thanksgiving break where I started to look like a piker.

I don't think my kid resented my spending habits because I had been parenting brainwashing him for years about "all of his needs and some of his wants".  He now easily interacts with people across the economic spectrum.  It is especially valuable for him now as he has his own business providing services to people who tend to be wealthy, and acting in the "right" way around them (respectful and indifferent discretion) helps him get and maintain business.

Same kid went to a Title 1 middle school where they had free meals for everyone and had both GATE and somewhat integrated differently abled kids.  Similar lesson there where he learned everyone is different and to accept everyone as they are.  Really good lessons to learn I think.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2023, 10:15:16 AM »
Another thing to consider about private schools -- who will their peer group be and what will the expectations be around spending. 

Yes, that's a concern. 

To be clear, this is just one of many options we're contemplating.  We've got three years to made a decision.

There's also a nearby Quaker school and a number of Catholic schools that are very socioeconomically diverse, all of which we'll check out. 

We're in what feels to me like a strange position because we're probably not going to send her to our neighborhood elementary (we moved here thinking we weren't having kids), so whatever we do will cost us.  We could move to good schools, which would almost certainly cost us many thousands annually in additional housing costs and transportation.  Most of our top public schools now are exurban, and not at all socioeconomically diverse.  The wealthy bubble dynamic could be at least as real if we moved for public schools, and it would upend our general low-key lifestyle.

Since we're going to end up paying either way - whether through moving or through paying private tuition - part of me is willing to at least consider staying where we want to live and just ponying up for private school.

secondcor521

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2023, 12:59:14 PM »
One thing you can do, which is unusual but I think makes complete sense, is to research the various options.  Sit in on classes.  Review the curriculum.  Interview current students and parents.  Review hard data on outcomes (test scores, college admissions, whatever).  Interview a teacher or three, particularly the one your kid might get assigned to.  Talk to the principal or other head honcho about their philosophy.  Lastly, read the marketing materials and website of the school but keep in mind those are marketing materials.

On average, I did more research as time went by on where my kids were considering going because I could increase the odds of avoiding a bad fit or bad situation.  Overall, being an involved parent or set of parents seems to me to be one of the things which is most highly correlated with good student performance.

lhamo

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Re: Financial aid process for high tuition, high discount private schools?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2023, 10:20:07 AM »
Also, you have three years (more, really, because you can always change things up mid-stream) to really dig into/think about what a "top public school" really means.

In raw terms, "top" public schools usually mean those with the best test scores.  Which HIGHLY correlates with affluence.

Maybe that is what is most important to you/your family.  Maybe not.  Maybe you value other things more.  As I mentioned earlier, my DD's high school was one of the more diverse socioeconomically in the city.  That meant diversity of other kinds, too.  Lots of immigrant/refugee families.  And yes, its share of social problems.  But the core ethic of the school is to welcome everyone as they come, and respect what each kid brings to the school.  They don't always succeed at that, but I think in general the atmosphere was pretty good.  It is NOT the academic powerhouse school in the district.  Rarely has National Merit finalists.  But our daughter solved the academic challenge piece by doing dual enrollment at the local community college.  Maintained a 4.0 at both schools.  Got very involved in robotics.  Got a summer job at Dominos when she was a rising senior and learned a LOT about work and dealing with people from different backgrounds.  I am pretty sure her essay about that experience (plus her one about forcing herself to persist and learn tech stuff in robotics) was one of the things that got her admitted into pre-engineering at the University of Washington.  I am also pretty sure that if she had gone to one of the bigger schools more known for their academics, she might not have stood out as much or developed the confidence she has now.