What would you give up for great schools?

[Dancin'Dog]

We want them around other smart kids. The older one has shown he will not make friends with any other kind of kid. The younger one seems to be heading down the same path.

The academic side of things is somewhat less important, but we do also care about that.

-W

I'd strongly suggest that you perhaps work with them (or give them books and research if they prefer that) on making friends, dealing with people not like them, etc.  Their world as they grow up will not me insular.  Teaching them to find the good and interesting bits of people seemingly unlike them is a gift.  These don't have to be their forever BFFs. 

As an adult who has moved a lot, I've been grateful to form friendships with people not only vastly different from me, but even those who I know will be friends for a season, rather than a lifetime.  They aren't the deepest friendships (for either of us), but they are valuable (to both of us). 

This is not a definitive solution but seems like it would be deeply valuable anyway.

Also, it surprises me that your wife isn't willing to rent to address a problem that seems to be very deeply affecting everyone's mental health (including her).  Or that you aren't willing to sell for a loss and buy at a premium (or a house with deep compromises).  This seems like a situation one wold want to throw money at.

I agree. 


I'm curious whether you and Mrs. Walt have many friends.  I'd assume you do, and if so, don't they have children that yours would enjoy playing with?  Getting together with other families seems like a good way for parents to demonstrate how to be friends with a variety of people, regardless of their individual interests.  Have you tried encouraging friendships at the family level?  That might help fill the social gaps they have at school somewhat. 

[waltworks]

In our current environment, I have zero friends. Mrs. Walt has a few through school. I appreciate the ideas, however. We have spent a lot of time trying to make family-level friends through soccer, basketball, skiing, mountain biking, school, etc. None of that has really worked out, I think we're too nerdy and weird.

Agreed that we should be throwing money at this (we are nominally FI, though we both still work to varying degrees), and that we should be ok with renting. The reality is, however, that our current rental has worked out so badly (this is our first time ever renting a home) that we're hesitant to go down that road again. Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge. Nevertheless I am pushing to GTFO at the holiday break. Mrs. Walt has committed to a variety of things at school (mathematics lead teacher, robotics coach, etc) that she would feel bad about dropping so that's probably the biggest hangup at this point.

I think we've decided that ski towns are not a fit for us, so IMO we need to cut bait and leave ASAP. Inertia is a bitch, though.

-W

[Dee18]

"Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge."

Doesn't your family have 2 adults and 2 kids?

[Mr. Green]

This is a very interesting thread to me, with some responses that are about geographic areas that are local to us. We're in the more unusual position of having FIREd and then having a child. Currently discussing whether a second is in the cards.

We live in the Wilmington, NC area now and I'd echo the sentiments others have expressed about touristy economies. Wilmington is a decent sized city with a state college so it's not a complete bifurcation of classes but it's still not an area you move to without a job. It's also not an area I'd want our daughter to be in as a young adult due to more limited opportunities. Our local school district is one of the best in the metro area but it's very suburban/white flight. I'd like her to experience more diversity.

Travel is a really strong pull for us, and we are mountain people living at the beach so we've contemplated moving closer to what we love doing one day. However, I wonder whether those environments will be best for our daughter. We have plenty of time to figure this out since she's not 2 years old yet.

I had hoped to home school her early, for numerous reasons, chief among them that it frees us from being geographically tethered. We'd really like to be able to continue to roam as long as possible. Walt's comment about his kids not responding to their teaching though was kind of eye opening to me. Maybe this isn't such a big deal when they're young. I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable homeschooling beyond early middle school anyway.

There's a lot of food for thought in this thread and I'm thankful for the discussion!

[FINate]

We did home schooling for a year during the pandemic with mix success. I think a lot of it comes down to the personality of the kid. Our oldest did NOT want to receive instruction from us, is extrinsically motivated, and strongly introverted. We had difficulty getting her to participate in social activities. Our youngest is highly intrinsically motivated and extroverted. She did great with home school but it was clear that she desperately needed more social interaction. It was great that we could individually tailor their instruction and fill in learning gaps (their previous public school left some pretty enormous holes). And the freedom to travel and do our own thing was wonderful. But in the end it made more sense to enroll them in our local schools (new location, new and better schools).

As for mountains and mountain towns: I've become a fan of medium to large cities near enough to mountains for hobbies, but where tourism isn't the main draw. Real cities with normal people working regular jobs. Cities with 100k+ population, within an hour or so of mountain stuff. Places like Portland, Seattle, Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake City, Denver, Ft Collins. Ideally, older neighborhoods laid out on a grid, within walking distance of school and shopping. Plenty of people for community, but close enough to the outdoors. The biggest issue with these places are how busy activities can be within 2 hrs of the city, but this usually isn't an issue for those who are FIRE and can get out mid-week.

[Villanelle]

"Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge."

Doesn't your family have 2 adults and 2 kids?

Yes. I'm confused by this answer as well.  Finding a 2 bedroom apartment, or similar, is a challenge?  It's starting to seem like the answer to the title of the thread is "not very much".   Which is a perfectly fine, respectable answer, but then the challenge is working on being okay with that answer and that ranking of priorities (or adjusting the current reality so that in its confines, things improve a bit), or changing the answer if OP isn't okay with his (and his spouse's) current answer of 'not willing to give up very much'.   

[Freedomin5]

"Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge."

Doesn't your family have 2 adults and 2 kids?

I think OP has three kids. Two school-aged kids and a 3-year-old.

[waltworks]

Our entire family is unable to sleep (except for my wife and I) in close proximity to any other member of the family. We have tried and tried but the kids simply can't share bedrooms.

So we need 4 bedrooms. We're currently in 3 and the 4 year old sleeps with my wife and I. Not a great setup.

-W

[JJ-]

Our entire family is unable to sleep (except for my wife and I) in close proximity to any other member of the family. We have tried and tried but the kids simply can't share bedrooms.

So we need 4 bedrooms. We're currently in 3 and the 4 year old sleeps with my wife and I. Not a great setup.

-W

Huh, expanding your space footprint is also a priority.

What does your family think about this? How have those conversations gone?

You don't have to do anything formal, especially with the kids. When you are getting in quality time doing whatever it is you do, pop a question like "what do you think about moving somewhere where there's more people interested in things that you like?" Leave it open ended on purpose without chasing a yes or a no.

If there's a strong reaction to it, chances are there are some strong feelings about something with the current situation.

If there is a desire to move, that is when you can broach sacrifices like needing to downsize or share a room. If you're unhappy and you have to share, that just makes it worse. But if the pain is in the name of greater gain, maybe the two older can share a room while you and DW finally [nominally] sleep with the 4yo in another room in a 3br. 

[Morning Glory]

If the older kids don't want to share because the 4 y/o might get into their things, you might compromise by letting them store their things in your room so the 4 y/o can sleep in theirs. That worked with my 2 boys when we had a 2 br.

[waltworks]

We have tried every combination of sleeping arrangement, trust me. The 11 year old wakes up the 9 year old wakes up the 4 year old and vise versa all the way back up the chain.

There's not an issue with toys or possessions, they don't have much in the way of stuff outside of sports gear (which isn't stored in their rooms anyway). It's simply that every single one seems to be an active/loud and simultaneously easily awakened sleeper. We've spent a fortune on white noise setups, blackout blinds, eyemasks, weighted blankets, and the list goes on and on. We've tried all sorts of bedtime routines, and even changes to their diets. No dice. They have to have separate rooms (this also makes staying in hotels next to impossible, and it caused us to sell our #vanlife van a few years back after only owning it for 6 months!)

If we owned the place we're in now I might try adding a wall to split a bedroom into two tiny ones. We tried hanging blankets to split it up but that failed.

-W

[StarBright]

We have tried every combination of sleeping arrangement, trust me. The 11 year old wakes up the 9 year old wakes up the 4 year old and vise versa all the way back up the chain.

There's not an issue with toys or possessions, they don't have much in the way of stuff outside of sports gear (which isn't stored in their rooms anyway). It's simply that every single one seems to be an active/loud and simultaneously easily awakened sleeper. We've spent a fortune on white noise setups, blackout blinds, eyemasks, weighted blankets, and the list goes on and on. We've tried all sorts of bedtime routines, and even changes to their diets. No dice. They have to have separate rooms (this also makes staying in hotels next to impossible, and it caused us to sell our #vanlife van a few years back after only owning it for 6 months!)

If we owned the place we're in now I might try adding a wall to split a bedroom into two tiny ones. We tried hanging blankets to split it up but that failed.

-W

I just want to say I really feel this post! We tested my kids sharing a room for a few months as we were gearing up for a move, hoping it would mean we could downsize for a few years.

It was great to test it out, but it was a nightmare. No one was getting sleep and everyone was a cranky mess all of the time.

Our kids weren't great sleepers to begin with and had just settled them into decent sleep, getting up only once or twice a night, and then we ruined it by making them share a room (they were around 5 and 3) and we had another year of bad sleep for our youngest as we undid the damage.

Now that they are older (12, 10) they have totally different needs when falling asleep- one likes a little light, complete silence, and a closed door, the other one wants lots of white noise, an open door, and a warmer room.

[Dancin'Dog]

Can you imagine life back when families lived in one-room cabins?  They were used to it and it worked because it had.

[waltworks]

Can you imagine life back when families lived in one-room cabins?  They were used to it and it worked because it had.

I mean, we tried it. For months and months. Nobody got used to it.

We'd make shitty pioneers, I agree.

-W

[Dancin'Dog]

Can you imagine life back when families lived in one-room cabins?  They were used to it and it worked because it had.

I mean, we tried it. For months and months. Nobody got used to it.

We'd make shitty pioneers, I agree.

-W

Sub 20f nights sure trained our dogs how to behave indoors.  Turning the thermostat down 10-15 degrees in the Winter might do the trick.  lol 

[waltworks]

Sub 20f nights sure trained our dogs how to behave indoors.  Turning the thermostat down 10-15 degrees in the Winter might do the trick.  lol

Our lease doesn't allow us to turn the heat down below 60 (which is where we leave it), but it's at least 5 degrees colder in the bedrooms than by the thermostat in the living area, so it's not super hot or anything.

Like I said, we've tried it all (they definitely don't sleep if it's hot, of course).

-W

[EverythingisNew]

I didn’t read the whole thread, but I want to respond to the main question of moving for schools. Yes, I think it’s worth it.

We lived in two different scenic vacation towns, but ultimately moved last year to a suburban area in another state for the excellent schools. Very similar to the OP’s story! Both scenic towns were wonderful times in our lives, and it was very hard to leave… I still miss them both. Now I see that it was definitely the right decision!!

Things our new elementary has that our last 2 schools did not:
- elementary school gifted program for math and language arts
- elementary band and orchestra
- elementary Spanish and mandarin programs
- amazing teachers are the norm
- elementary before and after school TEACHER LED clubs
- parent involvement in the classrooms
- excellent programs for IEP and special needs

My kids are very smart so I often thought they were doing fine regardless of the school, but now they are getting cool opportunities and being pushed from other adults, not just their parents. For example, I used to encourage my daughter to read, but now she is in a before school book club and reads constantly without me mentioning it. I don’t have to do any extra school!

Another big benefit are the people. The people are more educated and similar to my friends group from college or work. I have more friends here which is so nice. My kids have more friends too!

Much more group sports and community activities. I think the lack of scenic makes people really into soccer, 😂

More interest in music and foreign languages. Both my husband and I started playing instruments again! It’s our hobby now. Two of the kids play instruments. One kid studies a foreign language.

We are happy we moved. Sure, we miss the scenic beauty, but I also like getting into music and having friends that are similar to us. I miss the quiet, because it’s definitely more urban here. Yes, I would say we moved here for the schools - but it’s also a nice place to hang out for a few years. It feels like home.

[waltworks]

2024 update - I think I've finally convinced DW that we cannot continue to live in ski resort towns with kids. Which sucks because she has a really good group of friends here now, and the opportunity to buy a deed restricted house for basically nothing. It just isn't healthy for the kids long term, though.

Both school age kids have now been accelerated by a grade but the reality is that's a bandaid. We do plan to finish out the school year for the sake of stability, however, unless a house we like falls in our lap. We've actually made offers on a couple but not gotten them, so who knows. Target town has a typical RE selling season in the spring, so even if we got an offer accepted in April or May we'd probably not move the kids until the end of school. Seems pointless to move kids with a few weeks/month of school left.

-W

[Telecaster]

Have you considered a place like Bellingham Washington?    It is not a mountain town, but it is near-ish to a ski mountain.   Robust mountain biking community as well, and lots of nearby outdoor opportunities.   

[waltworks]

Have you considered a place like Bellingham Washington?    It is not a mountain town, but it is near-ish to a ski mountain.   Robust mountain biking community as well, and lots of nearby outdoor opportunities.

Been burned twice now, so we're going for a place we know (I grew up there, we visit regularly) to have a ton of nerds and excellent schools. A quick google says the 'Ham is much too big for us, appears to have mediocre public schools, and also is not much cheaper than our ski resort digs. But I'd love to visit sometime, I hear the mountain biking is awesome.

-W

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Makes sense to go for a place you know. I'd say Bellingham is also different from most mountain towns in that it's also a college town, which definitely flips the dynamic a bit for having post-college students, professors, etc.

[Telecaster]

Good luck with your move. Sorry you have to deal with all this. 

[rothwem]

I thought a lot about this thread over Christmas.  I meant to post but things have been crazy. 

I've posted about living in Asheville--the slacker "cool guy" attitude that pervades is irritating as hell.  I'm from Central Maryland, roughly halfway between DC and Baltimore, in a place known for excellent schools.  I had my pick of APs and I went into college as a sophomore because all of the AP credits I had.  I went back home for Christmas though, and man, the hustle culture is stifling too.  Lots of smart people, lots of pressure to perform.  I make less in Asheville than I would in Maryland, and the majority of my family just thinks I'm an idiot for not working where the money is. 

Finding the balance is a tricky thing. 

[Finances_With_Purpose]

Our entire family is unable to sleep (except for my wife and I) in close proximity to any other member of the family. We have tried and tried but the kids simply can't share bedrooms.

So we need 4 bedrooms. We're currently in 3 and the 4 year old sleeps with my wife and I. Not a great setup.

-W

I feel you.  Sleep doesn't seem that vital...until it's missing.  Then it's everything.

[waltworks]

I actually have an update! We formally pulled the plug (resigned our teaching gigs effective at the end of the school year) and will be giving nerdville a test run starting in July, because we are under contract on a house, finally.

The market in my old hometown is totally insane (as in, we made a 10% over asking offer on another place recently with all contingencies waived and weren't even in the running) but we found an off market home that actually belongs to the son of my childhood piano teacher. and were able to leverage that old connection.

It's beat to hell and needs a ton of work and thanks to the crazy market we had to basically buy it as-is for a fairly outrageous price (for there, at least). I have been squirreling away excess money in Ibonds and other boring safe stuff to pay for it since we can only qualify for a hilariously tiny mortgage so we also probably lost $100k in missed investment earnings or something terrible.

So financially not a great move but not super relevant in the grand scheme of our finances. If we hate it and move away and take a bath on the house it won't really change our lives meaningfully, and as someone posted earlier we have a problem that is worth throwing money at.

It's got 5 bedrooms (one with a separate entrance and bathroom) so we can hopefully either bring granny to live with us (something that is in the cards in the near future probably regardless of where we live) or have some rental income if we throw a tiny Ikea kitchen in it or something like that.


I have to say, though, I'm not as relieved as I thought I'd be. I tear up when I think about saying goodbye to all the kids I teach, and our kids do love to play in the snow and never experience temps over 75 degrees or so. I'll sure miss 100k worth of amazing nordic skiing right out the door. But as a family we spend most of our waking hours at school so I'm hopeful it will be great. If not, we'll just move back having learned a lesson about what we really value, I suppose.

-W

[reeshau]

If not, we'll just move back having learned a lesson about what we really value, I suppose.

The hardest school is the school of life.  Congratulations on finding an answer, and good luck on the adventure!

[Laura33]

WOW -- what an update!  Congratulations on making the leap!!  Here's hoping it works out for you and the kids.  I suspect if your kids are happy, you will be much happier overall, but that doesn't mean you won't miss the good things that you're giving up. 

[FINate]

Congratulations on the move! And thanks for the update, always nice to hear what actually happens on threads like this.

If you're anything like me you'll go through waves of buyer's remorse and doubts about the move. The actual move will be exciting at first, but around 3-6 months you'll hit a low point of missing your old home while your new home doesn't quite feel like home yet. It doesn't help that this low point will probably coincide with winter. Get a light box, take vitamin D supplements, and hang in there. A new normal will start to take root at around 1 year, and by year 2 you'll feel fully established. This is where it's invaluable to be clear on values and motivations to get you through the low points.

I'll also suggest that the first year in a new place is a great opportunity to establish yearly traditions. Make a list of seasonal activities, events ,sports, clubs, etc. that you want to do. Put these on the calendar and do them.

The yearly rhythm of activities can also include visits to your current resort town. Do the stuff you love, but keep in mind that these places are often better to visit than live full time, and you moved for good reasons.

Best wishes with everything, looking forward to future updates.

[Kathryn K.]

Congratulations on the move! And thanks for the update, always nice to hear what actually happens on threads like this.

+1! Appreciate the update and happy to hear you are able to try somewhere that hopefully will work better for your family. If you can come back to this thread and post an update occasionally post-move that would be very interesting to hear as well.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Congrats on reaching a decision & having a plan! Wishing you all the best of luck, and like other PPs, would love an update at some point.

[waltworks]

this low point will probably coincide with winter.

Thanks for the kind words... but maybe you should read more carefully. We live at 10,000 feet in CO right now, it's been winter (which we love) since early/mid November. It's snowing right now, actually, and I'm headed out to ski.

That is frankly the biggest concern - only having a couple months of winter rather than 6. We'll see how it goes!

-W

[FINate]

this low point will probably coincide with winter.

Thanks for the kind words... but maybe you should read more carefully. We live at 10,000 feet in CO right now, it's been winter (which we love) since early/mid November. It's snowing right now, actually, and I'm headed out to ski.

That is frankly the biggest concern - only having a couple months of winter rather than 6. We'll see how it goes!

-W

Good point. This old man is getting forgetful. Though I think the issue with winter in most places is lack of sun, not the snow or cold. Not sure if Nerdville has more or less sunlight than CO.

Oh, and I'm also going skiing today, though probably the last day of the season for me. Happy trails!

[AMandM]

Your post about algebra made me revisit this one, which I thought I had posted in. Congrats on the move! We moved for similar reasons, though not involving schools, about 10 years ago and although we took a financial hit, the social/community dividends have been just what we hoped.