What would you do? short notice job offer and impact on kids' futures

[StarBright]

Calling all mustachian parents:

My DH just got a surprise tenure track offer at a school in a different state. He is also expecting an offer from his current institution (but does not have anything in writing).

We like where we live, we feel we've finally gotten a handle on our oldest child's school issues and we live in a walkable mustache-ville. We are a few hours from my parents who are probably our most helpful relatives (we have a special needs-ish child). DH likes his job. It is as easy or as challenging as he wants to make it, tenure is achievable. It is a regional institution that will allow our kids to go to school here for free (ranks in the high 200s as far as school rankings go) but outside of a few programs it wouldn't really be where we would choose to send our kids - unless they are totally undecided on what they want to do, then they can go there for free!

Surprise job offer comes from a private, top 100 school that is moving up the rankings, 20k more in salary, more prestige, more research support, all those things an academic wants. It will be  a harder job with more expectations but challenges that intrigue my husband. It will also have family within a couple of hours, and while we really like them, we won't be able to lean on them for help as they also have young children.

Our kids can go to this new school for free or exchange with a ton of other universities and get a "scholarship" for the amount home institution's tuition. DH got the job offer yesterday and they want an answer on Monday. Not enough time to visit or even research schools! The job itself would start in August but this would be our forever home.

If I had my druthers, I'd rather not move! I'm tired of moving and we like where we live . . but . . . that college tuition is quarter million dollar perk . . are we bad parents if we stay where we are? I also think DH is very intrigued by the offer but also knows how tired I am of moving to support his job (while I'm still the main breadwinner) so he would turn it down if I said no.

Help me!

[LadyMuMu]

Fellow academic family here who transferred from a regional to an R1. Receiving an offer on Friday and expecting an answer on Monday is NOT typical. They are trying to lock down their candidates before other offers come in. It's a pretty crummy practice and your DH can totally push back on their deadline and use that offer to get his home institution to speed up their offer. Also, since you describe it as a surprise offer, does that mean your husband was not officially on the market this year and he's being recruited? If so, all the more reason not to be bullied into a rushed timeline. They want him. This is prime time to negotiate. Relocation packages, startup funding, reduced course load while he reestablishes a new research center, spousal appointments (if you're in academia as well) etc.

Don't base your decision on tuition assistance. Those are notoriously unreliable over time. It sounds like your kids are still young, so the tuition policy could change five times between now and when your kids are looking at school. I'm surprised your state institution offers tuition forgiveness because that's becoming less and less a trend for dependents of employees at public universities.

[StarBright]

DH was definitely on the market.

He was in a NTT position at his current institution that turned into a TT and he had to go through the process.

The surprise is that the job market is so bad that in his field it is basically unheard of to get more than one job offer. My DH is awesome, but it was just a shock to have to make a choice :) Conventional wisdom is you get one offer, you take it and are grateful for it.

His home institution just called and made an offer 10 minutes ago.

Thanks for the info on the tuition assistance - that is very helpful! But if state schools are dropping tuition assistance, should we still be considering it at the private school?

[AMandM]

A few thoughts:

My husband has tenure at a private university that is also part of a tuition exchange.  The drawback of it is that having the tuition exchange benefit makes you ineligible for any other financial aid, so if your kid goes to one of the tuition exchange schools you are on the hook for all the fees and room & board.

How (un)ambitious is your husband?  If you stay where you are, will he regret not moving later on? Is this his dream job? Conversely, how easily can you get a job in the new place?  Would it be as good a job, worse, better?  Would his salary bump relieve the pressure on you as major breadwinner?

If your child's special-ish needs are not too demanding, might it be worth trading grandparents' help for having cousins to play with?

Do you know anything about the area?  Walkability, real estate prices, mustachian community, cultural opportunities, etc.? You could ask on here about the location if it's not too revealing, or look on the meetups board to see if anyone's already there.

Good luck!  These decisions are hard!
From a fellow wife of an academic

[StarBright]

Thank you so much!

I work remotely (and have since my husband decided to go to grad school) so my job is portable. Boss approved the new location as soon as I ran it by him on Friday. I am definitely looking to start scaling back soon.

We are not sure of how ambitious DH is or not - he thinks a life of research sounds pretty amazing. He has also been insanely productive in his current NTT position, with multiple articles a year sometimes, but I'm not sure he can keep the pace for another 6-7 years. Though to be fair - the teaching and service loads are way lighter with this offer.

I did post a question about the location on the forum but no one seemed familiar with the area :) and we know nothing about it! We live in a super awesome walkable neighborhood right now. Walking is definitely part of the area culture. I'm worried of losing that with a move, but might be necessary to get better schools (as far as I can tell from real estate and school ranking sites)  Ahh well.

Thanks so much for your help!

Having these choices is such a blessing and a rarity and I'm really trying to hold on to that - but it is also so hard!

[Dee18]

My employer is a member of Tuition Exchange, with the website tuitionexchange.org
If this is the program of your husband’s potential employer, I would be happy to answer any questions about it.  When I was hired I misunderstood the benefit and thought it was automatic.  Instead, schools participating  basically agree to scholarship children of employees at other member schools to the extent that their own employees’ children are getting tuition exchange scholarships at other member schools.  A few schools do offer many of these scholarships each year, but other schools may offer only one or two.  Our experience was that my child got offered free tuition (or at least the tuition amount of my employer) at schools where she would otherwise have gotten a 50% merit scholarship.  It worked out great for my family (partly because my daughter wanted a small liberal arts college) but many of my colleagues’ children did not get any tuition exchange offers at the schools they wanted to attend, even though they were admitted. 
If I were untenured at a university now my focus would be on the overall financial status of the schools where I had offers.  Many private schools have spent tons of money to compete for students with tuition discounting, new dorms, and fancy rec centers and have huge bonds/debts. Many state schools have had their contributions from taxes cut.  Forbes provides financial “grades” here that I found useful:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2017/08/01/2017-forbes-college-financial-grades-a-through-d/#66bb18f872f3

Congratulations to your husband for earning this offer.

[Gin1984]

My husband and I are in a similar position, except that we want to move but he received two offers, one with an increase of pay but includes more research and his home location.  One thing to considered is the cost of living, we actually are losing money when you take into account COLA even with the large increase.  But I agree with the others, the quick turn around requirement is NOT normal.

[StarBright]

My employer is a member of Tuition Exchange, with the website tuitionexchange.org
If this is the program of your husband’s potential employer, I would be happy to answer any questions about it.  When I was hired I misunderstood the benefit and thought it was automatic.  Instead, schools participating  basically agree to scholarship children of employees at other member schools to the extent that their own employees’ children are getting tuition exchange scholarships at other member schools.  A few schools do offer many of these scholarships each year, but other schools may offer only one or two.  Our experience was that my child got offered free tuition (or at least the tuition amount of my employer) at schools where she would otherwise have gotten a 50% merit scholarship.  It worked out great for my family (partly because my daughter wanted a small liberal arts college) but many of my colleagues’ children did not get any tuition exchange offers at the schools they wanted to attend, even though they were admitted. 
If I were untenured at a university now my focus would be on the overall financial status of the schools where I had offers.  Many private schools have spent tons of money to compete for students with tuition discounting, new dorms, and fancy rec centers and have huge bonds/debts. Many state schools have had their contributions from taxes cut.  Forbes provides financial “grades” here that I found useful.

Congratulations to your husband for earning this offer.

That is the program and your post is so helpful! thanks!

[MrThatsDifferent]

I’m not a mustachian parent, although I hope to be at least a parent in 18 months. I’m going to work off what you shared, but first: what’s the goal of your family? If the goal is to FIRE in say 5-10 years, that may impact how you view things. If your goal is FIRE when the kids finish college, that means something as well. Since you haven’t mentioned that as a focus, I’ll stay on what you have emphasized. You’re both working, you have a child with special needs and your parents are there for help and support. I’m not quite sure how you walk away from that? How will your family cope without that, especially if your husbands focus gets shifted to the new, more demanding job? And your other child has to adjust to a new environment?  I get the career advancement element for your husband but that’s also possible at his current school, so it seems you’re really only doing this for college for the kids (will both be going)? If you’re already saving for them in a 529 or equivalent, does it matter? What if your kids don’t want to go to college, or go somewhere outside those options? I’m not sure I’d make a move this dramatic, when clearly you don’t want to go and your family needs the support solely based on future college tuition. Your mustachian, you can handle college tuition through a variety of ways.

[waltworks]

No way in hell would I move somewhere sight unseen for some extra $, unless it was enough extra dollars I could just up and retire in like a year or two.

You might love it in Texas. You might also *hate* it, and then what good is the extra money if you're miserable?

-W

[AMandM]

The quick reply is definitely shady. IN my husband's field, the standard is to give the candidate two weeks to consider an offer.

Did your husband get to talk to anyone about livability while he was there for the interview?  Can he contact any of them about it now?

[galliver]

I'm a daughter of an academic who recently got her PhD and opted out of the academic job market myself. After reading a lot about it.

First, moving is par for the course. It's not as bad as military jobs, but if you're going to do the career, you have to follow the work. We gave up a lot in one move from CA to Chicago, though my sister and I ended up meeting our SOs of 7+ years, so in some ways it wasn't the worst ;)

Second, academia is a passion career. My dad could have gone into industry and made lots more, and some of his friends did just that. But he stayed in the field he wanted to work in (my feelings about this are somewhat complicated). Anyway, the job offer doesn't just come out to compensation, but to what he gets to DO.

I think if your job was not remote, I would hesitate more. But since your reservations are all community/lifestyle related, I say: if this is a position your husband is really interested in, that he thinks he can do more at than his current institution, you should go for it. Everything else will work out. You'll find a good neighborhood/town and a good school. It will be different, but you will find new things to love.

PS the quick turnaround suggests to me that he was not their first choice. But he is now... I could be wrong.

PPS given he has a concrete offer from the current institution, that's not an awful choice for you guys either. But it doesn't sound like that would make the most of his education and passion...

[kenner]

A few thoughts:

My husband has tenure at a private university that is also part of a tuition exchange.  The drawback of it is that having the tuition exchange benefit makes you ineligible for any other financial aid, so if your kid goes to one of the tuition exchange schools you are on the hook for all the fees and room & board.

How (un)ambitious is your husband?  If you stay where you are, will he regret not moving later on? Is this his dream job? Conversely, how easily can you get a job in the new place?  Would it be as good a job, worse, better?  Would his salary bump relieve the pressure on you as major breadwinner?

If your child's special-ish needs are not too demanding, might it be worth trading grandparents' help for having cousins to play with?

Do you know anything about the area?  Walkability, real estate prices, mustachian community, cultural opportunities, etc.? You could ask on here about the location if it's not too revealing, or look on the meetups board to see if anyone's already there.

Good luck!  These decisions are hard!
From a fellow wife of an academic

If it matters, and it sounds like it does, I would ask about the specific rules for the tuition exchange program in question.  How many qualify yearly, GPA requirements, how many years can/does it cover, etc.  Both a sibling and I went to school through a tuition exchange program...in our case we each qualified for four years of tuition once we were in the program as long as we maintained as 3.0 GPA, but the actual dollar amount covered was what four years of what tuition would have cost at the university our parent worked at.  Since I went to a school that was more expensive, I had some tuition left to cover on my own on top of room and board which wasn't a part of the program (sounds like that's common).  On the other hand, I had no problems applying for/receiving other scholarships that took care of the remaining tuition and room and board at the same time time, none of which were ever deducted from the tuition exchange amount (maybe that's less common, but there were two guys I knew in school doing the same thing and none of us had issues so I'm guessing it was how our program worked).  Sibling had tuition covered fully but not as much luck with external scholarships being in a much less in-demand major.

[StarBright]

The offer on Friday, answer required by Monday is a HUGE red flag for me.  That being said, you can potentially use that outside offer to leverage better terms at current institution.

I would consider hiring Karen at TheProfessorIsIn.com for negotiation assistance, if you haven't already. She seems to know what she is doing and often helps her clients get thousands of extra dollars/better terms (including more reasonable teaching loads) in their packages.

I did actually contact her on Friday and she was very nice! But since DH is not sure what HE wants, it wasn't going to be a productive conversation.

We've basically come down to the R1-ish offer is the "head" offer (once we've dug into the particulars, it is better for us on paper in almost every single way), and staying where we are is the "Heart" offer (with the biggest issue being we love where we live, and don't know if we'll love TX).

We are really trying not to agonize and know that either choice will be fine for us, but it is sort of overwhelming. We know that we are so lucky to have this choice but we are both overthinkers too, so it is a bit of a mixed blessing right now.

ETA - he came back from his interview on Thursday and they offered the job on Friday. I think they are just trying to lock him down before the home institution could  make their offer (I understand there is less bureaucracy at private institutions). DH did talk to one of the people on the search committee last night with some questions, and they were very nice and said he should make the choice that his best for our family, but that they also REALLY want him so there you go :)

[radram]

The offer on Friday, answer required by Monday is a HUGE red flag for me.  That being said, you can potentially use that outside offer to leverage better terms at current institution.

I would consider hiring Karen at TheProfessorIsIn.com for negotiation assistance, if you haven't already. She seems to know what she is doing and often helps her clients get thousands of extra dollars/better terms (including more reasonable teaching loads) in their packages.

I did actually contact her on Friday and she was very nice! But since DH is not sure what HE wants, it wasn't going to be a productive conversation.

We've basically come down to the TX offer is the "head" offer (once we've dug into the particulars, it is better for us on paper in almost every single way), and staying in OH is the "Heart" offer (with the biggest issue being we love where we live, and don't know if we'll love TX).

We are really trying not to agonize and know that either choice will be fine for us, but it is sort of overwhelming. We know that we are so lucky to have this choice but we are both overthinkers too, so it is a bit of a mixed blessing right now.

ETA - he came back from his interview on Thursday and they offered the job on Friday. I think they are just trying to lock him down before the home institution could  make their offer (I understand there is less bureaucracy at private institutions). DH did talk to one of the people on the search committee last night with some questions, and they were very nice and said he should make the choice that his best for our family, but that they also REALLY want him so there you go :)

You said he "came back" from his interview. Did he go there? I would be very hesitant to accept in a town I have never been. It sounds like you are leaning toward accepting and you just have too many reservations to say yes.

If it was me, I would consider the following:
Give a conditional yes, with a required visit next weekend. You and your husband fly down Thursday night, return Sunday or Monday. Ask your family to watch your child. Answer as many unknowns as you can.

If they say no to that, now I know who I am dealing with as an employer. How reasonable will they be as the curve-balls of life require flexibility of our employers?

Have you been in Texas in August? What did you do during the polar vortex?

[StarBright]

@radram  - he did just spend 3 days there and said it was nice. DH is happy anywhere. I have found something to love in almost every place I've lived (I'm on my 7th state right now :)) except for one place. But I do LOVE where I live now.

Polar vortex was a bit rough - but I grew up in the midwest. I was fine. DH grew up in SoCal - he still doesn't love the cold but is finally getting used to it. We'd essentially be trading winter cold for summer heat.

My parents aren't available for childcare right now, sadly. My mom is taking care of her bedridden sister for a while.

[waltworks]

Oh jesus, Waco?

Sorry, that just popped out.

Definitely visit before you commit.

-W

[YttriumNitrate]

If I had my druthers, I'd rather not move! I'm tired of moving and we like where we live . . but . . . that college tuition is quarter million dollar perk . . are we bad parents if we stay where we are? I also think DH is very intrigued by the offer but also knows how tired I am of moving to support his job (while I'm still the main breadwinner) so he would turn it down if I said no.Help me!

Rummaging through your older posts, it seems that you have about a decade before you would be able to actually use that tuition benefit. A lot can happen in that time, so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it.

[LadyMuMu]

OK, I'm totally biased because I HATED living in Texas. I've not lived in Waco though. Watch some episodes of Chip and Joanna Gaines' show Fixer Upper--it's located in Waco. That will give you some idea of the place and the culture. If it's the university that I'm assuming it is, be prepared for a churchy crowd given the school's religious background. We're churchgoers but it was a bit much for us.

In our experience in east Texas, walking anywhere was highly suspect. People literally drove their SVUs a few blocks to the neighborhood Halloween party. The heat in the summertime is enough to keep most folks indoors for 3-4 months out of the year.

[StarBright]

It sounds like they REALLY want him.

I would push hard for a funded house/school search visit.  See what it would cost to replicate the kind of home/school situation you have now.  Looks like Waco has some issues with not meeting state standards for special ed (which I believe are not that high to begin with), so that is definitely something to be concerned about:

https://www.wacotrib.com/news/education/waco-isd-board-gets-look-at-plan-to-bring-special/article_86b9209c-468e-58ca-9b61-ec954a82efdb.html

Good luck!  Either way, it is wonderful he is in a position to finally go TT.  Hopefully that will take a lot of the financial pressure off you (I have missed your journal, BTW....)

awww, thanks lhamo! I miss writing the journal and the awesomely supportive folks who helped me but one of my coworkers discovered MMM and I felt I should  have the mods close it.

You can imagine how intense the last several months have been for me :) But I actually started seeing a therapist every now and then and just having that verbal outlet has been astoundingly helpful. It is a little surreal to come to the end of decade + long journey and realize that we've reached our goal.

A large part of my hesitation is the trailing spouse aspect of it - I have moved three times for my husband's career. It took 3.5 years in our current location, but I've built a small friend group and my kids love their life and I'm really loathe to start over again. And there is a part of me that says this is ENOUGH.

This weekend has been a lot of discussion about balancing our family's needs with his career desires. But I learned a lot from you all who used to offer such spectacular advice on my journal. We are in a much better place to make this decision now than we were two years ago. 

[Mariposa]

Hi, StarBright. I was one of the readers of your old journal, and I'm somewhat of a trailing spouse myself, in that I have an ambitious husband whose career ties us to NYC, and, until now, he's always been somewhat underpaid for his skill set and the amount that he works. (A few differences in my case: I'm not the primary breadwinner; I make roughly 50% of the money in our household, and I get to pursue a passion project of my own.)

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't move to Texas. From what you've shared here, it sounds like DH would get to work at a somewhat more prestigious institution and get a bit more money, but you'd still be the main breadwinner. From what I remember, your DH isn't in an academic field where he needs a whole lot of specialized equipment or on-the-ground technical support for his own research, so the differences in resources between the two institutions don't matter as much. And he can lean into his work as much as he wants to at his current institution, as you say. In our interconnected world, he can still pow-wow or collaborate with anyone in the world, and for everything else, there's inter-library loan and research trips.

I would keep your options open and gather as much info as possible, as lhamo suggests, but unless you just fall in love with Waco, if it were me, I'd say no. If possible, it would also be good for your DH to get something in writing from his current institution before he replies to the other offer.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily discourage DH's ambition if his work is fulfilling to him, as long as it doesn't make you unhappy in terms of taking him away from family life. If he does write a NYT bestseller, you'll never have to work again, and you'd have all kinds of options. And if he becomes a super-star in his field (not just the star that he currently is), he will get an offer from an institution where you no longer have to be the breadwinner, and that could very well be worth moving for. Right now, the benefits for him don't seem to be enough to uproot your family, imho.

[Spiffy]

If the university in question is where I think it is (BU?)...ask me me anything. My husband is faculty and I work here part time.

[I'm a red panda]

OK, I'm totally biased because I HATED living in Texas. I've not lived in Waco though. Watch some episodes of Chip and Joanna Gaines' show Fixer Upper--it's located in Waco. That will give you some idea of the place and the culture. If it's the university that I'm assuming it is, be prepared for a churchy crowd given the school's religious background. We're churchgoers but it was a bit much for us.

In our experience in east Texas, walking anywhere was highly suspect. People literally drove their SVUs a few blocks to the neighborhood Halloween party. The heat in the summertime is enough to keep most folks indoors for 3-4 months out of the year.

Having lived very near Waco, I would not use Fixer Upper to gauge what Waco is like.

[I'm a red panda]

OK, I'm totally biased because I HATED living in Texas. I've not lived in Waco though. Watch some episodes of Chip and Joanna Gaines' show Fixer Upper--it's located in Waco. That will give you some idea of the place and the culture. If it's the university that I'm assuming it is, be prepared for a churchy crowd given the school's religious background. We're churchgoers but it was a bit much for us.

In our experience in east Texas, walking anywhere was highly suspect. People literally drove their SVUs a few blocks to the neighborhood Halloween party. The heat in the summertime is enough to keep most folks indoors for 3-4 months out of the year.

Having lived very near Waco, I would not use Fixer Upper to gauge what Waco is like.

 @i'm a red panda - please tell me more! I'm looking for opinions!

Well, my opinion doesn't mean much, seeing as how you don't know much about me or my preference, but I would not live in Waco. I also could not personally work at Baylor, if that is the university in question.  I disagree with much of their philosophy and policies for students.

[StarBright]

Everyone,

thank you so much for all of your input! I shared all your thoughts with my DH. We have decided to stay put for the time being. His current institution was able to offer counting several years of his recent work towards his tenure and gave him extra conference travel funds for a years in addition to offering the highest salary they were allowed to offer (as a state school). They also have very clear tenure guidelines which he will easily meet, compared to the Tother school's more nebulous criteria.

There were some other things taken into consideration, but chief among them was that the other school didn't give us time for me to visit. Seemed crazy to trade something we know we like for an unknown.

Regarding kids' college cost: they can go to our midwestern school for free and we'll start saving some more money in case they want/qualify for something more.

If I've left anything out please let me know!

Also - I recently read that you can use a Roth IRA to pay for college? Does anyone know if that is legit?

Thanks!

[radram]

Also - I recently read that you can use a Roth IRA to pay for college? Does anyone know if that is legit?

Thanks!

Congratulations on deciding. It sounded like it was going to be win-win, but making the choice is still pretty stressful.

If you are younger than 59.5 at the time of withdrawal, deposits can be withdrawn anytime. The 10% penalty on earnings is waived for education expenses.

More importantly, I can chime in that it shouldn't matter. Sacrificing your retirement for the education of a child sounds like the wrong move. Put on your own mask before aiding your children kind of thing. You would also be sacrificing DECADES of tax free earnings. The money should come from somewhere else.

You paid nothing for my advice. I hope it was worth it :)

Have a great day.