Author Topic: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting  (Read 35660 times)

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2013, 01:06:38 PM »
Growing up feeling like you aren't worth spending money on will eff you up.

Absolutely.  What I'm getting from this thread is that it's vital to explain money as a practical issue so that it isn't an emotional issue.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5961
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2013, 05:47:11 PM »
If "frugality" is ... not allowing them to have something in their lives that makes them feel special, you're doing it wrong.
Holy hyperbole batman! If your kids self-esteem is dependent on stuff, you are doing parenting badly wrong.

5inatrailer

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2013, 02:21:52 PM »
A book I read (retire at 30 by buying dividend paying stocks) articulated this point well; spend money on experiences, not on "things".

If we spend $300 on stuff in a month, I lose my brain. But if we spend $100 on a cool experience, I don't blink an eyelash.

I'm a shift worker and therefore have my kids 75% more than other Dads. I make sure we do something fun 1x/week and something awesome 1x/month. That usually ends up being the local pool in winter (-40 here sucks) or the free splash park in summer, and then either a fun family day sledding or large family trip.

I do get the whole social stratification thing and will adapt once our kids are in school and am nervous about staying in our mobile home...

A large part of the reward of parenting for me is making my children savvy to the exploitatious nature of a consumerist society, and teaching them how to "game the system".

nolajo

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2013, 07:44:34 AM »
I don't think that frugality is the problem per se, it's that a lot of parents don't compensate in other ways for the money that's not being spent. My parents were pretty frugal on the whole (I knew the phrase "conspicuous consumerism" from about 7 years of age in the mid 90s - long before that was trendy) but they didn't especially make up for it in affection or in experiences that we were interested in. They also never communicated to us, particularly once we were past a rough patch where we were pretty low income, that we were secure. That didn't cause as much anxiety for me as it did one of my sisters, but there you have it. It's not pretty to have a nine year old hoarding every penny because she's gotten the impression that our family life is ephemeral.

That's the other take away, I suppose. Your kids will react differently to this, and you may be surprised by how they do. I was never insecure about the family, but wearing out-dated or homemade clothes, biking to school (thus arriving sweaty and with helmet hair), and not playing sports because my parents didn't want to invest the time and money, did not help my social outcast situation. Those are memories that don't really fade (it took nearly a decade for me to get back on a bike, I'd learned to hate it that much). While you certainly can't help pre-teen and teen-aged social issues very much, and I recognize that I probably wouldn't have been well-liked even with better clothes, you need to find the things/activities that help bolster your child's confidence and play to those. The biggest change in my life was when my parents let me join a sports team in high school, shelling out the enormous sum of $200 plus some gear - another $100 or so - for the season. I got in shape, met a whole different crowd of people from the smart kids, and gained a shit-ton of self respect. I can only imagine how middle school might have been different if I'd had something like that in my life.

All told, it's probably the same advice you always get about kids. Keep the lines of communication open and listen to their opinions (even if you don't act on them), model your ethos (cheerfully if you can - we picked up on how much my mom hated cooking at home and restaurants are still way more attractive than they should be because, you know, cooking at home obviously sucks), and encourage their strengths even if there's a moderate outlay of money. They'll understand that they only get to do or have some things, if they're things the kids care about.   

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8956
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2013, 08:49:42 AM »
The job of a parent is to prepare his child to be a successful adult. The job is NOT to always make his child "happy".

This is such an important concept that it bears repeating.  Bravo for "getting it".

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8956
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2013, 08:52:23 AM »
My parents did not let me watch TV at all until I was late elementary school, and even then it was only classics.  Same thing with radio. I grew up not knowing who major pop stars, TV shows, or actors were. 

My son feels extremely proud of himself when he looks at the magazine covers on display in the grocery store lines and has no idea who any of the people on the cover are. 

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8956
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2013, 08:58:47 AM »
I've been a bit concerned about regarding MMM's children and the environment they're being raised in; as it pertains to their ability to replicate what MMM and Mrs. MMM have done.

Basically, MMM and Mrs. MMM were high paid wage slaves for a period of about 10 years before they could change to their current, awesome lifestyle.

Their kids do not have the "advantage" (though I hate to use the word) of seeing their parents deal with that lifestyle.   Are the kids going to be able to deal with having to be somewhere at a specific time, be bored to tears while there, have to put up with ignorant bosses and coworkers, and all the other Dilbertesque trappings of cubicle life.

I did note that they are being sent to public school, so that should help... :)

It's a serious concern though, does growing up in the MMM lifestyle provide sufficient "suck it up and deal with it" training to make it in the corporate (or even collegiate) world?

nolajo

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2013, 10:01:06 AM »
I've been a bit concerned about regarding MMM's children and the environment they're being raised in; as it pertains to their ability to replicate what MMM and Mrs. MMM have done.

Basically, MMM and Mrs. MMM were high paid wage slaves for a period of about 10 years before they could change to their current, awesome lifestyle.

Their kids do not have the "advantage" (though I hate to use the word) of seeing their parents deal with that lifestyle.   Are the kids going to be able to deal with having to be somewhere at a specific time, be bored to tears while there, have to put up with ignorant bosses and coworkers, and all the other Dilbertesque trappings of cubicle life.

I did note that they are being sent to public school, so that should help... :)

It's a serious concern though, does growing up in the MMM lifestyle provide sufficient "suck it up and deal with it" training to make it in the corporate (or even collegiate) world?

That's an interesting concern that hadn't even struck me. Unless Junior MM manages to hone whatever skill set is particularly valuable 20 years from now, he's likely to have to put in some time as a drone somewhere. It sort of comes back to the argument that I hear in favor of homeschooling sometimes; that traditional schools are largely concerned with producing capable, complacent workers, not particularly with learning. While it's true and it's kind of horrifying, given the realities of the working world, there's a lot to be said for learning to put up with not just adversity but with boredom. Though many people do find their particular calling in something innovating, a lot of us have to put in some years in the trenches and that slog will be unfamiliar to Junior MM. That said, I suspect there are very few parents who are able to fully retire before their kids see them putting in their time, so I doubt it's a wide-spread problem, even among mustachians. 

jeepbraah

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2013, 07:24:38 AM »
But now I don't have a TV and don't waste my time on pop culture . . .  so make of it what you will. 

People get upset when I don't know who a singer or actor is. It takes me days to memorize new facts, I can't imagine how much time has been taken up for everyone to remember a hundred different pop stars and their stories.

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2013, 01:41:00 PM »
Their kids do not have the "advantage" (though I hate to use the word) of seeing their parents deal with that lifestyle.   Are the kids going to be able to deal with having to be somewhere at a specific time, be bored to tears while there, have to put up with ignorant bosses and coworkers, and all the other Dilbertesque trappings of cubicle life.
It's a serious concern though, does growing up in the MMM lifestyle provide sufficient "suck it up and deal with it" training to make it in the corporate (or even collegiate) world?
Why should adults have to put up with that, let alone kids?

My mother-in-law (an elementary school teacher) used to feel that public schools were better than homeschooling because you learned to deal with bullies, and that meant you had the adult skills to cope with workplace bullies.  It never occurred to her that neither should be tolerated.  It would never occur to a homeschooled kid to put up with either one.

Maybe a homeschooled kid would find that crap so intolerable that they'd build their own business.  You know, like some of the other people we went to high school with who weren't popular but who were certainly miserable.  They made their own paths, and homeschoolers will too.

We were fortunate enough to be able to lead by example.  When we ER'd, our daughter was only eight years old.  Today she's seen us living the woo-hoo ER life for over half of her own life.  I tried to be reasonably discreet about it, like not driving by her school bus stop in front of her and her friends with my longboard strapped to my roof rack, but she understood that she had to slave away in school all day while Mom & Dad were playing at home.  (I offered her the opportunity to attend "Dad's Homeschool" program, but she quickly decided that school wasn't such a bad deal after all.)  She spent a lot of time with other kids who told her many times "Oh, you so lucky!" because her parents were home and "there" for her instead of being exhausted and stressed out by work-- or in my case, deployed to the Western Pacific or Iraq.  When 10 adolescents wanted to hang out somewhere playing video games or running around the yard and raiding the fridge, we were the cool parents who were home to keep an eye on things.

And now that she's in college, she "gets it" about the ER lifestyle.  She knows exactly what the payoff will be for saving 50% of her income after graduation and pushing as hard as she can for financial independence.  She's seen the life that most of her classmates have never even heard of, let alone experienced, and she has no doubts about her goals.

Maybe we don't need to train our kids to fit within our society.  Maybe we need to teach them to create their own...

twinge

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2013, 08:25:44 AM »
Quote
Maybe we don't need to train our kids to fit within our society.  Maybe we need to teach them to create their own...

I think this is key. The strategies that have worked for us to achieve greater FI are not likely what will work in our children's future but there are some common lessons you can teach--e.g., focusing on minimizing the number of resources it takes to make you happy, the power of time in compounding capital-- that are more like mathematical truths than the specific tactics that might have worked for us e.g.,  "invest in real estate" or "become a software engineer for ten years."   You also model the skills and values that got you there in your daily life all the time still --I think the key thing that makes mustachian approach different from other early retirement is that you don't stop trying to limit waste just because you don't financially need to anymore--you believe that to be true more generally and view the increased free time associated with financial independence as a way to more clearly enact your values (e.g., drive less bike more, take on more diy projects, learn useful skills).  If kids grow up with those optimization skills in place and believe in their value, they will have more mental space to strategize how to use whatever opportunities exist in their world to develop the future they want. I can definitely say my 11 year old has put WAY more thought into the kind of future he wants and how to get it, and has WAY more skills to limit consumption of resources than any of his friends.  He knows how to grow and cook his own food, he's thought about investing, he thinks about creating businesses and has made some attempts, he's had purchases he really wanted and could afford and then reassesses whether they are worth it and decides against them.  He's looked up the average salaries of the kinds of work he's interested in.  He also thinks about what causes he wants to support with money and actions.  I think people --kids especially--like to feel control over their lives and if you don't train it out of them, they will invent strategies to exert that control and will be motivated to do the work to make it happen.  That said, I would say the drudgery of school with its hyper focus on testing of basic academic competences (it's starting to shift a little away from that in the past 5 years or so, but still not entirely) does provide him visceral motivation to avoid drudgery in life--but it doesn't take away his desire to work.  He would love to skip a day of school to spend just as many hours writing a computer program.

jess

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2013, 09:17:30 PM »
I think what you're really talking about is that these now adult children didnt feel loved because of these "deprivations". So just love them! Love the heck out of your kids so much that they have no doubt.

clutchy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 339
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2013, 09:47:31 PM »
I've never been a fan of the term frugal... for some reason it's been co-opted by the absurdly/stupidly cheap.  I think of reddit.com/r/frugal. 

My wife and her twin brother both have some oddities from a childhood w/ less than most.

My wife and her brother both buy tons of shoes... more and more and more shoes....  clothes are also overflowing.  Remnants I suppose.  It has also caused an overabundance for our daughter.  I'm not sure how much there would have been if I wasn't on guard for over-consumption.


homeymomma

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2013, 08:18:47 AM »
I have a little bit of that feeling you describe - of being confused once I got older because my mom had always said I couldn't have new clothes, then realizing she actually made a ton of money. Here's the difference, though - she spent a ton of money on her own clothes (like, probably upwards of $1000/mo, no joke).
I am hoping that by being frugal with both myself and my daughter, she will understand that she is still important even while learning the lesson that having the newest and best of everything is wasteful and an impediment to having the bigger things in life that are truly important.
Also, focusing more on happiness and fulfillment rather than just saving money shifts the focus from dollars and cents to more of a lifestyle choice, which hopefully precludes seeming "cheap" over "frugal."

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3505
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2013, 04:20:34 PM »
I've thought a great deal about this topic over the years.

My early years were spent in a frugal household, then about the time I started school things went downhill and we were in real poverty.  We literally went hungry.  We got three pair of jeans and one pair of tennis shoes, and usually by the spring the jeans were too short and the shoes had holes in them.  We had MANY more chores than most kids did.  We all needed glasses, and we were on a rotation; if our eyes changed or our glasses were damaged before it was "our turn", too bad.  Squint.  When we all five got sick (which happened on a regular basis because we didn't always have heat), my mom'd buy three prescriptions and divide them between us.  The list could go on, but you get the point. 

How'd this affect us? 

Three of us grew up believing that education was the way out -- that's fairly common for kids who are in First Generation Poverty; unlike those who come from generations of poverty, we saw in our extended family examples of people who worked and reaped the rewards.  As a result, we saw that as something "for us".  We three earned college degrees and from there:
     - One has worked a long time in a professional job, is very successful, and lives frugally.
     - One started her own business, is very successful, and lives moderately.
     - One works in a low-level professional job, is moderately successful and spends every penny on travel; jokes that he'd rather do this NOW than retire EVER.  He does own a house, pays his bills, etc. - but anything left over is fun money.

One entered the military, recieved wonderful, practical training and is successful.  Lives frugally, except for hobby: food.   

One never grew up and decided to throw herself the childhood she never had.  She waits tables, she's constantly behind on her bills, and as soon as she gets a paycheck it's gone on clothes, cheap jewelry and make-up.  This would be understandable if she were 21 . . . but she's 41.  Ironically, she's also the one who has serious health problems, and we are all concerned about her reaching her physical limits in the not-so-distant-future. 

How did we all grow up in the same house, yet turn out differently?  I know that we older kids had the benefit of 6-7 "good years" before things went badly, and those early years are when kids' core personalities are formed.  Thing is, the one who's "throwing herself the childhood she never had" is BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS the smart one.  In high school you'd have bet on her to eclipse us all. 

Looking back, I see MANY negative lessons about money when we were kids:

- We were made to feel that wanting things (clothes, tickets to football games or prom dresses) was BAD.  Wanting things was UNGRATEFUL.  Asking for things was WASTEFUL, and we were taught to surpress those desires.  Voicing them often led to ridicule from our parents, and the other siblings joined in.
- We were praised for finding ways to save /make things last longer, and we were praised for criticizing conspicuous consumption. 
- We were taught to comparison shop, but we were not taught anything about saving. 
- We were expected to work for things once we turned 16, and all of us took to work like ducks to water.  As you can imagine, it was a relief to have money of our own to control.  Four of us saw those teenaged jobs as a temporary thing:  A stepping stone to the adult world of work, not a place we wanted to stay.  The sister who's still having trouble with money, however, saw those low-level service jobs as LIFE.  I have no idea how that idea started because we were all treated equally (badly) in our teen years. 
- At 18 we were on our own.  No safety net. 

In college I realized that I had a skewed, unhealthy view of money.  Money was ALWAYS on my mind, and not in a positive way.  I'd wake up in the middle of the night worrying if I was putting away enough to pay the next month's rent, and I'd get up to go over my numbers.  When I needed to buy food or have a haircut, I'd be paralyzed with fear.  I'd check my bank balance multiple times and was genuinely worry over those moderate purchases.  I'd worry, "Yes, my single pair of everyday shoes ARE worn out, but what if I buy new ones, and then next week I get sick and need to go to the doctor?  I can always put more cardboard in the soles."  I was smart enough to realize that I HATED living that way.  So I turned to books.  I sat in the college library for hours and hours reading books about budgeting, books about investing and retirement, magazines of all sorts.  And I slowly taught myself a healthier view.  I didn't have any money at that point, but I formed opinions about how I was going to manage it once I got some money!  Today I WILL NOT discuss money with my parents.  If I can't turn the conversation, I will flat out say, "I'd rather not discuss money." 

As the oldest, I felt a responsibility to help the other kids see that money didn't have to be what it was in our house, and I xeroxed magazine articles, brought them books from the library and so forth.  I think it was useful because most of them "saw the light". 

Today my husband and I have all we need and more, and our kids don't know how much we have.  We have always lived "beneath our means".  Our kids have grown up in a modest house, having their own room, having good food and occasional meals out, etc.  They don't have Smart Phones or new cars, but we've spent freely on educational experiences like trips to museums and historical sites and craft materials, but we have taught them to appreciate used items just as much as new items.  One thing that makes me very proud is that my girls are equally at home in -- and know how to behave in -- a campground or an oceanfront 5-star resort.  When they want something expensive, I've often provided them with a way to EARN it, or I've given them a budget and let them figure it out.  At 16 and 19, they seem to both have a nice "balance".  They understand that it's important to live within your means, but they also aren't paralyzed with fear when they consider a splurge. 

 


happy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9294
  • Location: NSW Australia
Re: Unintended consequences of frugal parenting
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2013, 07:32:31 PM »
Interesting post MrsPete, thanks for sharing

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!