throwing away toys as punishment?

[CommonCents]

So, I have to ask: What ARE you to do with kids who have behaved poorly, if you are not to spank them, hold time out, take away toys or privileges?  (Not before they behave poorly, when you are modeling perfect behavior.)  It's seems there's a lot of don't do this or don't do that, but as a parent* I wouldn't be happy being left with only talking to them, because whether there's a study on it or not, I question if that works, having seen a lot of kids just ignore it.

*no kids here yet

Alfie Kohn has a bunch if books.  I haven't read them recently enough to accurately summarize.

I've heard from child development people that they basically push time outs so you don't hit your kid, to give you something to "do".  But research has shown they don't do anything to change the behavior, they just keep the kid safe from you walloping them.

So, not to belabor my point, does this mean that it's now recommended you do *nothing* when a kid screws up?  No consequences at all?  I'm still struggling with understanding how the child would learn the action taken was wrong.  Life itself has consequences, so that also seems a perilous path to follow - much like the trend for no grades (which drove my mom nuts when it happened to my brother as she saw his performance drop).  I tried a quick google search and couldn't find a study on what happens when you do nothing when a kid misbehaves.

[pipercat]

When he was a kid(all the way up to in his teens, from what I gather), his mom would throw his and his brother's toys away without warning during bouts of cleaning.  She claims it was only stuff that had been "clutter", but from what I've heard from my husband and his brothers, she would frequently take things from under the bed, stuffed animals from on top of the bed, and other toys that had been put away.  She would never mention what she had thrown away unless they asked her about it, and the she would just say that the "Trash Lady" paid them a visit.

This sounds abusive to me, but am I making too big a deal over this?  My husband is still deeply resentful, and has never really learned to put away his things either.  Is this weird?

Then I guess I'm abusive.  I have absolutely tossed things that were cluttering my kids' rooms because they would not do it on their own.  They would go in to "clean" their room and end up with zero trash or clutter to get rid of.  They just shuffled things around.  Of course I'm careful to get rid of things that they've likely forgotten about, but I make no apologies for this.

The thing is, it's very easy to judge how other people parent their kids.  What may be commonplace and no big deal in one house may be more serious in another house.  I've certainly threatened to get rid of toys, games, etc. when those items have been mistreated (left lying around), or when they have become more of a priority than school or other responsibilities.  I've often fantasized about grabbing a garbage bag and going crazy.  I've never done that, but we all have our moments.

Parenting is hard.  Sometimes we make mistakes.  Sometimes we make choices that work in the short term without considering the long term.  No two households function in the same way, and no two parents are alike.  If you don't think this practice sounds appropriate, simply choose a different method. 

[arebelspy]

i must be a terrible person or have terrible parents as i cannot conceive of how you could raise a child without punishments (consequences whatever you want to call it) and it all turn out ok.

off to have a think and read.

There's a difference between punishment and consequences.

They are used a lot interchangeably for simplicity's sake, but when someone is anti-punishment, I don't think they're anti-consequence, so they're probably drawing that distinction where others might not.

[CommonCents]

When he was a kid(all the way up to in his teens, from what I gather), his mom would throw his and his brother's toys away without warning during bouts of cleaning.  She claims it was only stuff that had been "clutter", but from what I've heard from my husband and his brothers, she would frequently take things from under the bed, stuffed animals from on top of the bed, and other toys that had been put away.  She would never mention what she had thrown away unless they asked her about it, and the she would just say that the "Trash Lady" paid them a visit.

This sounds abusive to me, but am I making too big a deal over this?  My husband is still deeply resentful, and has never really learned to put away his things either.  Is this weird?

Then I guess I'm abusive.  I have absolutely tossed things that were cluttering my kids' rooms because they would not do it on their own.  They would go in to "clean" their room and end up with zero trash or clutter to get rid of.  They just shuffled things around.  Of course I'm careful to get rid of things that they've likely forgotten about, but I make no apologies for this.

The thing is, it's very easy to judge how other people parent their kids.  What may be commonplace and no big deal in one house may be more serious in another house.  I've certainly threatened to get rid of toys, games, etc. when those items have been mistreated (left lying around), or when they have become more of a priority than school or other responsibilities.  I've often fantasized about grabbing a garbage bag and going crazy.  I've never done that, but we all have our moments.

Parenting is hard.  Sometimes we make mistakes.  Sometimes we make choices that work in the short term without considering the long term.  No two households function in the same way, and no two parents are alike.  If you don't think this practice sounds appropriate, simply choose a different method.

I don't think your situations are comparable.  The previous poster was talking about throwing things away without warning, including properly put away toys.

"his mom would throw his and his brother's toys away without warning during bouts of cleaning.  She claims it was only stuff that had been "clutter", but from what I've heard from my husband and his brothers, she would frequently take things from under the bed, stuffed animals from on top of the bed, and other toys that had been put away."

Sounds like you are talking about consequences for actions.  (Now, I grant you someone is arguing upthread there should be no consequences, but I still haven't gotten clarity on how you can teach a child that way, so I for one am not ready to jump on that bandwagon.)

I think the term abusive is thrown around a lot, and while I don't think what the PP's MIL did was good (and as I said, I wonder if taught him to hide things and messed with his sense of security), I wouldn't call it abusive myself.  Constantly yelling at or belittling a child - that's more what I think about when I'm conjuring up an image of emotional abuse.  As another poster said, most of the time, people are trying to do a good job, and we all make mistakes.

[Toffeemama]

Well, it seems pretty inconsistent behavior not linked to anything in particular (not that the toys weren't put away, or as punishments for behavior), so if anything, I suspect it might teach him to hide things important to him.

I haven't explored his emotional relationship to his stuff, but he certainly feels the need to hide things from his mom, and he definitely doesn't trust her.  There are plenty of issues with him and his parents, so it's hard for me to untangle separate problems.

[iris lily]

The key point is knowing when the child is developmentally able to understand consequence of "misbehaving" or even understanding why the behavior is wrong to begin with. Small children simply do not understand.

Parents need to protect their small children from situations where they "misbehave"  by limited their world, shrinking it to times and places where they will "behave." Set them up to be successful.

Don't want to pick up 1,000 toys? Don't allow 1,000 toys into the house.

Don't want your two year old screaming and jumping off his chair in a restaurant? Don't take him to the restaurant, or at least take him when he is rested and hungry, and then get him something to eat immediately.

Don't want him taking other children's toys in a group play effort? Remove him from the play group after a gentle "no, that's Kara's toy" if he doesn't stop.

Don't want him running in the hall of your MIL's house, pulling her glass breakables off the shelves? Don't put him in that situation, run him around the block before placing him in a "sit still" situation. And whisk him home when he's tired and starts tearing around.

Raising small children means staying close to home for some years, and constantly testing them to evaluate how much their brain has grown to understand concepts of undesirable behavior. Tiny children just don't have the physiology to be "Good."

I knew of one mom who ran her pre-kindergarten boys like dogs. She always had an A.M. and P.M. activity planned for them, one that involved large muscle action. She understood their physiological needs.

[CommonCents]

Don't want him taking other children's toys in a group play effort? Remove him from the play group after a gentle "no, that's Kara's toy" if he doesn't stop.

Ah, but this would be seen as a "consequence", which is apparently frowned upon here.

I agree with blahblah.

[pipercat]

I don't think your situations are comparable.  The previous poster was talking about throwing things away without warning, including properly put away toys.

"his mom would throw his and his brother's toys away without warning during bouts of cleaning.  She claims it was only stuff that had been "clutter", but from what I've heard from my husband and his brothers, she would frequently take things from under the bed, stuffed animals from on top of the bed, and other toys that had been put away."

Sounds like you are talking about consequences for actions.  (Now, I grant you someone is arguing upthread there should be no consequences, but I still haven't gotten clarity on how you can teach a child that way, so I for one am not ready to jump on that bandwagon.)

I think the term abusive is thrown around a lot, and while I don't think what the PP's MIL did was good (and as I said, I wonder if taught him to hide things and messed with his sense of security), I wouldn't call it abusive myself.  Constantly yelling at or belittling a child - that's more what I think about when I'm conjuring up an image of emotional abuse.  As another poster said, most of the time, people are trying to do a good job, and we all make mistakes.

Maybe they are different, but maybe not.  I have no idea how these little details will be conveyed to the future spouses of my kids.  I have the Mom's POV, while theirs may be vastly different.  Maybe I created some kind of trauma when I threw out that stuffed animal.  Maybe the fact that my kid hadn't actually looked at it or played with it in 3 years (or even know where it was) did not indicate that they were done with it.  My bad. 

My point is that it may just depend on which perspective you take, the parent or the child.  Now, the PP MIL may have really been a shrew, and she may not have given any consideration to her kids at all.  I certainly don't know.  Just saying that she may tell the story differently.  Not right or wrong, just different.

I do agree that the term "abusive" may be tossed around somewhat lightly.  As a parent, you do have to set boundaries and have consequences.

[galliver]

Seems like the general opinion on this thread is that throwing away a child's toy would trigger a devastating, life-altering trauma. 

I wonder, is this the general consensus  of members of this forum, or does this particular thread just attract a disproportionate number of our Sensitive Flowers? :)

As someone who had an imperfect childhood, I will speak for myself.  If the worst thing that happened to me was having my favorite matchbox car thrown away because I didn't pick up after myself, well I would count that as a pretty cushy childhood :)

Being deeply hurt to the point that you remember the incident years later is not the same thing as "devastating, life-altering trauma" but that doesn't mean it's desirable.

And what was described by another poster, where things would disappear at random would almost certainly cause some pretty intense insecurity in anyone, IMO. It's a violation of trust. And trust is important in a good parent-child relationship.

[arebelspy]

Don't want him taking other children's toys in a group play effort? Remove him from the play group after a gentle "no, that's Kara's toy" if he doesn't stop.

Ah, but this would be seen as a "consequence", which is apparently frowned upon here.

I agree with blahblah.

No, consequences are not frowned on.  They're absolutely necessary.  Punishments should be avoided though.

The thing you are doing needs to be linked to what they did.

Like if I threw straw all over you after you made that post, and you were itchy all day as a consequence.

[iris lily]

Don't want him taking other children's toys in a group play effort? Remove him from the play group after a gentle "no, that's Kara's toy" if he doesn't stop.

Ah, but this would be seen as a "consequence", which is apparently frowned upon here.

I agree with blahblah.

No, consequences are not frowned on.  They're absolutely necessary.  Punishments should be avoided though.

The thing you are doing needs to be linked to what they did.

Like if I threw straw all over you after you made that post, and you were itchy all day as a consequence.

Sure, the societal consequence of the kid stealing Kara's toy is that he is removed from that social situation so that Kara can continue to play with her toy. It's dickish to let your child bully another.

An 18 month old baby won't  understand that "consequence"to be a result of his behavior, it's not a teachable moment, but Kara still has to be protected from my bully child. Teachable moments are valuable and they shouldn't be squandered on "punishment." Sometimes I think that people are talking about the same thing, just using different words.

I don't have children, but I do have dogs. I have a breed that is not not known for their "teach ability." That's fine with me, I just treat them like two year olds in fur suits and I keep them away from situations where they will act badly. I am essentially lazy and I don't want to spend my time yelling, disciplining, and removing.

[amyable]

I'm trained as a school counselor K-12, but I work at a high school.  In my internship, I had to work with parents managing behavior problems.  I don't think this is a good response for the behavior.  It's NOT abusive, but it's not a good approach. 

First, we'd try to figure out why the kid is leaving toys out.  Are they overly excited to go to the next activity?  Is it defiance?  Are they just being forgetful?

If it's not a defiant behavior, we'd simply work to find a replacement behavior and reinforce it.  Maybe the family could decide on a time that everyone picks up the house for 3-5 minutes (maybe longer eventually)?  Then it needs to be reinforced with specific praise (e.g.  "I like the way you put the toys in the box neatly.")  If the child chooses not to participate in picking up, they could have to sit in time out for an age appropriate time.  You can then gradually release the time window, etc. as the child learns the new behavior.

This sort of thing seems like over kill, but it totally works if you are very consistent.

[gaja]

In theory, we try to go with simplicity, consistency, and giving alternatives. Most children want to please. They understand that if they are well behaved, their parents are happy with them. But they don't always know how to accomplice this. With 1000 toys, tidying feels like climbing a mountain. With 15 toys and well established routines for what belongs where, it is an easy task. Before the girls were 5, we used to reduce the number of toys for them. Now (ages 7 and 8), if their rooms are too bad, they are given three boxes each (toss, donate, store) and are told to fill them. Stuff that is stored, they can go to the attic themselves to get back if they miss it.

In reality, there is a lot of yelling. Not so much at the youngest, she prefers the simple life. But the oldest is a packrat and doesn't understand the concept of "garbage".

[DoubleDown]

Forget punishment. And yes, throwing away toys would be excessive and not instructive.

This is the preferred order of consequences for behavior (MacKenzie, "Setting Limits"). Consequences need to be clear and consistent, meaningful, immediate, and they go from the most intuitive to the more abstract. Very little children do the best with the most intuitive consequences, while older children and teens can handle more abstraction:

1. Natural consequences - Cause/effect is very clear and not dictated by the parent. "If you keep playing with your ice cream cone like an airplane it's going to fall on the ground. You will not get another one." If the child continues playing with the ice cream cone like an airplane and it falls on the ground, the consequence is it's gone (naturally from gravity) and they don't get another one no matter how much they cry or whine. They will quickly learn not to do that with ice cream, and that crying and whining doesn't accomplish anything.

2. Logical Consequences - Effects logically follow, but are not natural outcomes. Example: "You cannot play with another toy until you first put away your other toys on the ground." Being able to play with more toys (or not) doesn't flow naturally (like an ice cream cone on the ground), but it is a good logical outcome for not picking up other toys. Child [whining] "But I want to play with my other toys!" [parent, calmly and matter of factly]: "Then pick up your other toys and put them away. Once they're put away, you can play with your other toy."

3. Other Consequences (I don't recall the term MacKenzie uses) - Consequences that do not flow naturally or logically but are still consistent, fair, and immediate. Example: Teenager comes home 30 minutes after curfew with no legitimate excuse; consequence could be no going out for the remainder of the week except for school, work, or other mandatory obligations (i.e., grounding). It's not punitive, it lets the teenager understand and learn that if they exceed prescribed limits, there's a consequence of their freedom being restricted. Once they demonstrate the ability to stay within limits, more freedom is granted.

[HP]

We try to teach our children to respect other people's property and shared spaces. So that means they need to clean up their stuff. We also try to live by the same rules we teach to our children. So that means we're not going to start trashing their stuff because they don't want to pick it up.

Cleaning up is a difficult logic puzzle for kids. It uses organizational skills that they either don't have yet, or are still developing. Based on my experiences, I would estimate that children under 5-7 need to do it with you, rather than by themselves, and children 7-12 (depending on inherent abilities) may still need specific (patient!) detailed instructions that help them see how to do it efficiently instead of it just being one huge, overwhelming mess. They need to know that you're on their side and you aren't just going to teach them to swim by throwing them into the deep end of the pool, so as to speak. My experiences are based on caring for six different children (two of them mine own) spanning the mentioned age ranges, as well as drawing from my own childhood. I'm a bit of a neatnik now but I had/have ADD and cleaning up an entire room (or house, as the case sometimes was) was not something I could force myself to focus on til completion until I was 12-14. My parents threatened to take things away, and I think did once, and it merely induced panic which didn't help me anyway. Kind of had the opposite effect as intended, actually.



I view punishment as "'us vs. them', trying to make your child's life suck in hopes they won't do dumb stuff anymore" and consequences as "'we're on your side', but letting them bear full responsibility for making dumb choices"-- but parenting comes in way before that, in being an engaged, proactive parent and teaching them to not do the dumb stuff in the first place.

Perhaps the two look the same in results-- either one could look like the kid getting grounded-- but it's a different mindset that the results come from and the "consequences" mindset is more respectful and less fear-driven, less reactionary, etc., imo. The point is to not let your parenting come from a retaliatory, reactionary place, but instead be empathetic, respectful, and calmly maintain appropriate boundaries.

[rocketpj]

Clear boundaries and clear consequences for crossing them are an important part of child raising (in my opinion).  The kids who don't get healthy boundaries are not the happy healthy kids at school.

But the key part is clear communication about those boundaries and what happens when they are crossed.  And any consequences have to be consistent and fair.

I did donate one of my kid's toys, but only after he had used to to whack his brother over the head with it.  'If you can't be respectful to your brother and your toy then you can give it to someone who will handle it better'.  But that was one time (and it wasn't a particularly special toy, it just happened to be near to hand when he got mad).  Both the boys got the message on that one - there is very little hitting between them (though they find ways to bug each other in different ways).

[farmstache]

The key point is knowing when the child is developmentally able to understand consequence of "misbehaving" or even understanding why the behavior is wrong to begin with. Small children simply do not understand.

Parents need to protect their small children from situations where they "misbehave"  by limited their world, shrinking it to times and places where they will "behave." Set them up to be successful.

Don't want to pick up 1,000 toys? Don't allow 1,000 toys into the house.

Don't want your two year old screaming and jumping off his chair in a restaurant? Don't take him to the restaurant, or at least take him when he is rested and hungry, and then get him something to eat immediately.

Don't want him taking other children's toys in a group play effort? Remove him from the play group after a gentle "no, that's Kara's toy" if he doesn't stop.

Don't want him running in the hall of your MIL's house, pulling her glass breakables off the shelves? Don't put him in that situation, run him around the block before placing him in a "sit still" situation. And whisk him home when he's tired and starts tearing around.

Raising small children means staying close to home for some years, and constantly testing them to evaluate how much their brain has grown to understand concepts of undesirable behavior. Tiny children just don't have the physiology to be "Good."

I knew of one mom who ran her pre-kindergarten boys like dogs. She always had an A.M. and P.M. activity planned for them, one that involved large muscle action. She understood their physiological needs.

I agree with some of this, especially the general concept of preventing the problem instead of trying to solve it through punishment.

However, I also think this underestimates a child's capacity for understanding. If you read the book about french babies (I think the name in english is bringing up bebé or something), the author (american) says she always picked up her kid's mess, after all, at 10 months old the child couldn't be expected to know. One day a french friend of hers went by her house, saw the kid removing all books from a shelf, sat down and explained to her that "we don't do that" and we must keep the books in the shelf. The 10mo girl after a few minutes returned all books to the shelf (something the mom didn't even know she had coordination to do) and never did the mess again.

This is anedoctal, but I think people truly do underestimate their children's capacity. Eating out at the restaurant, same thing. My aunt (we're brazilian) takes my cousin to the movies from 3 months old. She never embarrassed her. We all take kids to restaurants from really young ages, and kids do know how to wait for food. It's a matter of practice. When you feed the child at home, you fix little by little each small mistake. Like a kid playing too savagely with a spoon - that will soon escalate to wanting to get out of the table and play. You correct the rough play with a few words before it escalates. If they don't want to eat something, you talk to them about flavor and texture and tell them they need to try at least a bite of each thing on their plate. (but then, I also absolutely fail to understand families that make different food for adults and children - we all eat the same things here, the other option is to go hungry) If you start young, when the rough negotiation starts at 4-6 yo you won't have the problem anymore. It's not even punishment - it's just guidance.

I think we brazilians aren't as neat as the french, but we also prioritize teaching patience and self-control from early years. Right now, with american education and psichology on the rise here, we are having more tantrum throwing kids around. We never saw tantrums on public spaces when I was a kid. The american ideal of a creative and free mind (while awesome) and belief that personality is almost set in stone might lead to this excessive exuberance in children, which can or not have bad repercussions over time, but ultimately is a parenting choice.

I for one value patience and choicy self-control extremely high. It will dictate most of a person's habits in life (consumerism, immediatism, entitlement, etc), and it's something you acquire by practice (like most of us here can attest), but it's not easy after you've grown up.

[Heart of Tin]

I am nannying right now for a family of five, kids age 2.5, 5, and 7. The mess that these kids wreek is overwhelming.  The 5- and 7-year-old share a room, and I couldn't walk more than five feet into it during the first month I was here. Over Christmas break I implemented a cleaning routine. First we picked up 15 objects a day, then 20, eventually we just cleaned the room everyday. My expectation was that we clean the room everyday, and while I receive mild pushback from the 7-year-old and occasional bouts of playing instead of cleaning, the kids seemed to just meet that expectation during the time that I set aside everyday specifically for cleaning

However, the sheer amount of mess that accumulates every evening after I go home is astounding. Now that they're back in school I can't keep up with it again since I go home so soon after the 7-year-old comes home, and I don't feel comfortable making the 5-year-old do all the cleaning for her sister.

What is baffling to me is the question of why these kids have so much stuff. Between toys, clothes, and accessories every shelf in the house is full. We have trouble getting all of the girls' clothes in their drawers and closet. The shoes are overflowing their baskets (in three different rooms!). The 2.5-year-old has a dresser, but also a laundry basket perpetually filled with clean clothes that can't fit in the dresser. An adult in this house needs to make the decision that there is too much stuff and take the time to declutter.

I don't think throwing away toys as either a punishment or a consequence is necessary. What's necessary is placing a limit on the amount of stuff that kids can have, and setting expectations around how that stuff is treated. I find consistancy is most important. The kids know that my rules are different than their parent's rules, and they demonstrate that by picking up after themselves with me and not with their parents.

[Goldielocks]

To OP's original question,

I tried it, not a punishment, but as a form of consequences about caring for your things, with a lot of warning  / advance notice in the 1/2 hr leading up to it.

What happened is that my child unkowningly called my bluff and helped me hold the trash bag open and very cheerily scooped up toys and put them in.  I was more upset than she was. (good thing I made sure that the few "essential friends" were not in sight.)

I learned my lesson.  After that, I would pick up left out toys (when they were not around) and put them into "toy jail"  (see other thread).   If in 1-2 years they had not been requested, they would be donated.  I would put the toys I knew they liked best back, but a lot went straight to "jail".

As Heart of Tin indicates, this is more a strategy for clutter reduction and sanity. 

The stuff comes into our home (after my eldest was 4 anyway) because of family and friend gifts, and gifts, and gifts.   Then they start to buy toys for themselves with allowances, and get donated toys from friends, and then there is a garage sale where they went and bought a box for $5, and  and and.  It keeps on coming.   I was part of the problem in the first three years, then realized I was surrounded by baby toy / equipment plastic, and started the battle.

I am still battling Knex with my 12 yo...!

[galliver]

To OP's original question,

I tried it, not a punishment, but as a form of consequences about caring for your things, with a lot of warning  / advance notice in the 1/2 hr leading up to it.

What happened is that my child unkowningly called my bluff and helped me hold the trash bag open and very cheerily scooped up toys and put them in.  I was more upset than she was. (good thing I made sure that the few "essential friends" were not in sight.)

I learned my lesson.  After that, I would pick up left out toys (when they were not around) and put them into "toy jail"  (see other thread).   If in 1-2 years they had not been requested, they would be donated.  I would put the toys I knew they liked best back, but a lot went straight to "jail".

As Heart of Tin indicates, this is more a strategy for clutter reduction and sanity. 

The stuff comes into our home (after my eldest was 4 anyway) because of family and friend gifts, and gifts, and gifts.   Then they start to buy toys for themselves with allowances, and get donated toys from friends, and then there is a garage sale where they went and bought a box for $5, and  and and.  It keeps on coming.   I was part of the problem in the first three years, then realized I was surrounded by baby toy / equipment plastic, and started the battle.

I am still battling Knex with my 12 yo...!

Don't throw out the Knex! Or legos! Or erector set(s)! They can all be invaluable for high school projects (e.g. physics)!

[MayDay]

So, I have to ask: What ARE you to do with kids who have behaved poorly, if you are not to spank them, hold time out, take away toys or privileges?  (Not before they behave poorly, when you are modeling perfect behavior.)  It's seems there's a lot of don't do this or don't do that, but as a parent* I wouldn't be happy being left with only talking to them, because whether there's a study on it or not, I question if that works, having seen a lot of kids just ignore it.

*no kids here yet

Alfie Kohn has a bunch if books.  I haven't read them recently enough to accurately summarize.

I've heard from child development people that they basically push time outs so you don't hit your kid, to give you something to "do".  But research has shown they don't do anything to change the behavior, they just keep the kid safe from you walloping them.

So, not to belabor my point, does this mean that it's now recommended you do *nothing* when a kid screws up?  No consequences at all?  I'm still struggling with understanding how the child would learn the action taken was wrong.  Life itself has consequences, so that also seems a perilous path to follow - much like the trend for no grades (which drove my mom nuts when it happened to my brother as she saw his performance drop).  I tried a quick google search and couldn't find a study on what happens when you do nothing when a kid misbehaves.

I will try to think of some examples.

Your 2 year old throws a temper tantrum in Target.  You don't spank or put them in time out, you just leave the store and try again later, or you strap them in the cart and finish ASAP, then move on from the whole thing.

Your 5 year old is screaming at you while you are trying to make dinner because she wants (fill in the blank) and you won't give it to her.  Instead of spanking/time out, you tell her that until she can speak politely and calmly, you will remove yourself from the room as you don't disturb to be treated like that.  You give leave and go in your room until she is able to control herself. 

Your toddler hits you while you are reading books.  Rather than bopping them back, you hold their hand gently and show them nice touches while saying "we use our hands for gentle touches, hitting hurts".  If they keep hitting, book time is over, and you say "we will read books later when you are ready to use gentle touches". 

If you kids is acting like a wackadoo and you have identified that it is because FEELINGS (note:  many such episodes of wackadoo behavior are do to FEELINGS) instead of sending them to their rooms to chill the F out, you go sit with them on the couch, hold them tight in your arms (some people call this a time IN) and calm them down with a combo of your presence, the physical pressure, and saying things like "sometimes its hard to be 4.  I can tell you are really upset about this.  etc".  Validating their feelings and helping them calm down.  You wouldn't think "sometimes its hard to be 4, isn't it" will transform a quivering ball of crazy rage into a sobbing preschooler lapping up hugs, but more often than not, it will. 

So you don't do nothing, you just don't smack them and you don't isolate them away from the family.