throwing away toys as punishment?

[BZB]

A few families I am acquainted with punish their kids for not putting away their toys by throwing them away. In the trash - not giving them away to a charity. I am horrified by this. The parents feel they are teaching their kids a lesson that if they don't take care of their things they will lose them. I think it teaches kids that toys and other things are disposable. These are middle and upper-middle class families who can afford to buy replacements and their kids have everything material they want. Has anyone else seen this form of punishment and what do you think of it?

[ASquared]

Check out author Alfie Kohn

Unconditional Parenting and Punished by Rewards

Interesting (scary!) things that children actually learn when we punish and reward.  Makes you think long and hard about what you really want to instill in your children for their ENTIRE lives.

[galliver]

There is another problem with this. Sometimes parents don't know the sentimental value of certain objects to their children. My mom once gathered up all the toys from our messy room in trash bags and told us she threw them out. I pitched a fit because one of the toys was a stuffed bunny that I had from my (biological) father. [He's not a bad guy, we just moved overseas and it wasn't financially feasible to bring him out to visit.] My mom seriously didn't understand, because if she had there is no way she would have let me suffer through that agony of loss at that age. Especially when she hadn't actually thrown them out, but they came back out of hiding many months later. It was a great joy, and I still have the bunny, and I visited my father three years ago, and I don't hate my mom (I really think she didn't know). But it was still terrible.

[Argyle]

I agree that this is a terrible, even abusive idea.  First of all, I feel strongly that consequences should be laid out clearly in advance.  Secondly, that punishment is way too severe for the offense.  Taking the toys out of circulation for a few days, maybe.  But throwing toys away just looks like a fit of anger and vengeance on the part of a parent who has no sympathy for what it's like to be imperfect.  It's more likely to breed hostility, distress and distrust than responsible habits.  Children learn more organization and responsibility from systems and support than they do from fear.  Even if they want to remember to do things, how to remember?  My son felt terrible because he kept forgetting certain chores and to turn in certain papers.  Threatening him with harsher punishment wouldn't have done a thing.  We figured out a method of writing all the chores on charts and checking them off, and using rubber bands around his wrists to help him remember to turn in certain things.  He was so relieved.

Adults often conclude that children don't do things because they're "bad" and "disobedient."  But often they want to earn their parents' approval, but the way to remember and accomplish the tasks is a lot less obvious to them than it seems to us.  That's where we want to help them, not just frighten and alienate them.

[galliver]

and using rubber bands around his wrists to help him remember to turn in certain things.

That's clever! And I bet if they're colorful, it's fun, too!

[oldtoyota]

Sounds abusive to me.

[ch12]

Sounds abusive to me.

My cousin would threaten to donate the toys if the kids didn't pick them up. Even when she got to the point of putting them all into one garbage bag, she never did.

It is abusive to actually throw away toys. It's shocking wastefulness. It's important to teach children about consequences for sure, but throwing away toys is emotional abuse; it teaches children the wrong lessons.

[dragoncar]

Yeah, I think this could be very traumatizing.  You could easily create a hoarder.

[stevesteve]

The parents feel they are teaching their kids a lesson that if they don't take care of their things they will lose them. I think it teaches kids that toys and other things are disposable.

I'm not sure.  I think if you have a set schedule of only buying your kid toys on their birthday and Christmas and then you throw them out as a punishment then it might send the first message.  I think some parents throw out the toys but also buy new ones willy-nilly so it creates no impact since there is no real loss of toys over the long-term.  I also don't think throwing them out would be a primary reason kids see things as disposable.  I think kids see parents decluttering and realize things are disposable and see how much is thrown out regularly for any number of reasons.

All-in-all I think it's generally a subpar type of punishment.  Abusive?  I don't see it.  Maybe if I take my kid's favorite toy, yell at him, and tell him I'm throwing it away because he's a bad boy then it's getting on the verge of abusive.  I also don't see why the emotional impact of threatening to throw away toys would somehow not be abusive but actually throwing them away would be.  I guess I don't believe that kids have an inherent right to their toys and it's abusive for parents to get rid of them.

[chubbybunny]

This is a fairly common practice in our house, though the kids get fair warning before any toys leave the house.  They are also told that the toys will go to children who will appreciate them. 

If my kids are told to do something and they don't do it, second warning is they will lose a toy (usually what they were distracted by in the first place).  Third step is the toy goes into the donate bin.  If they are really upset about losing a particular item, then I'll usually just leave it in "time out" and they can do extra chores to earn the toy back.

Throwing perfectly good toys in the trash is disgustingly wasteful. I can't believe people do that.  But then, I've found some really nice older furniture and even a box of video games left for the trash...  Some people turn dumpster diving into a major part of their lifestyle.

[dragoncar]

This is a fairly common practice in our house, though the kids get fair warning before any toys leave the house.  They are also told that the toys will go to children who will appreciate them. 

If my kids are told to do something and they don't do it, second warning is they will lose a toy (usually what they were distracted by in the first place).  Third step is the toy goes into the donate bin.  If they are really upset about losing a particular item, then I'll usually just leave it in "time out" and they can do extra chores to earn the toy back.

Throwing perfectly good toys in the trash is disgustingly wasteful. I can't believe people do that.  But then, I've found some really nice older furniture and even a box of video games left for the trash...  Some people turn dumpster diving into a major part of their lifestyle.

Has anyone ever told you that you kinda look like Jewel?

[mrsggrowsveg]

My dad used to do this to us when we were kids.  I guess I learned not to leave toys laying around.  I also learned that my dad had a bad temper.  I don't plan on doing this to my own kids.

[Gin1984]

Yeah, I think this could be very traumatizing.  You could easily create a hoarder.

My mom did it and I learned to store my stuff outside the house (in my locker or with friends when I was a kid) and in my (legally owned by me) car when I was older.  It made me very distrustful.

[CommonCents]

Yeah, I think this could be very traumatizing.  You could easily create a hoarder.

My mom did it and I learned to store my stuff outside the house (in my locker or with friends when I was a kid) and in my (legally owned by me) car when I was older.  It made me very distrustful.

Seriously, that's the lesson you learned - rather than the (easier) lesson to put your toys away?

I think it's wasteful.  I also think it's a poor punishment if not communicated clearly in advance and after escalating removals (e.g. first time you warn, second time you take away for a day, with progressively longer periods).  But, I also think it's reasonable for children to learn 1) they should take care of their things and 2) if they don't, there can be consequences.  Just like if I let my good knife rust away in the sink.  Maybe it had happened to my husband at an early age he'd put his stuff away rather than expecting the house fairy to do it.

[warfreak2]

It's important to teach children about consequences for sure

When the reason is "because I will choose to do to something bad to you", it's not "you shouldn't do this because it has negative consequences", it's "you shouldn't do this because I don't want you to. Also, I will hurt you". In that case, the lessons are that negative consequences are the fault of other people, that there are no negative consequences if you don't get caught, that two wrongs make a right, and that you are spiteful.

[lady brett ashley]

For one thing, if you're just going to buy them replacements, then even the supposed point isn't being enforced.

For toys/stuff laying around, we generally give the kids a choice: you can clean your room and put your toys away where they go, or i can clean your room, but i'm going to put the toys in the closet.  'Cause if you don't clean up when you make messes, you don't get to have the stuff to make a mess with ('cause i'm only cleaning it up the once).  That said, our kiddos are little, so things get put away for a pretty short period of time when that happens.

We do get rid of toys as "punishment" sometimes, but it's really uncommon, and is reserved for situations where it makes sense to say "if you choose to be mean with/to that toy, you're going to have to send it to another kid who will be nice with/to it."  Like injuring siblings with them.  Or peeing on something because you're mad. 

[oldtoyota]

My kid threw a toy (that had a lot of pieces) when she had a temper tantrum at age 3. She still remembers that she did that and that she lost the pieces. I'd rather let her learn from her own mistakes. I would never throw her belongings out though. I think that's mean.

No one here has suggested sitting down and talking with a kid about why they should clean their room--stubbed toes, broken toys from being stepped on, etc.

My kid left stuff on the floor and stubbed her toe and then cried. Lesson learned.

What happened to having a conversation? Why does the floor have to be clean?

Choose your battles and give your kids the chance to learn life lessons in a safe way.

[ABC123]

I agree that throwing toys away is incredibly wasteful and non-thrifty.  I don't think I would consider it abuse.  The word "abuse" gets thrown around so easily -- I guess it takes a lot more than that to make me label someone as a child abuser.  Putting toys away for a while and making them earn them back seems like a much more effective way of dealing with the situation.  All kids are different.  The way we deal with my older son is very different from the way we deal with my younger son.  I can see us possibly using this in a few years when they get a little older and can be more accountable for keeping toys picked up -- the first time they get put away, maybe the second or third time, but at some point I can absolutely see myself telling my kids that if the toys are not put away they will be given away to another kid. 

[galliver]

My kid threw a toy (that had a lot of pieces) when she had a temper tantrum at age 3. She still remembers that she did that and that she lost the pieces. I'd rather let her learn from her own mistakes. I would never throw her belongings out though. I think that's mean.

No one here has suggested sitting down and talking with a kid about why they should clean their room--stubbed toes, broken toys from being stepped on, etc.

My kid left stuff on the floor and stubbed her toe and then cried. Lesson learned.

What happened to having a conversation? Why does the floor have to be clean?

Choose your battles and give your kids the chance to learn life lessons in a safe way.

That seems rather idealistic. I knew the dangers full well. I just didn't want to do it. Maybe because at least half the mess was my sisters', maybe not. I was young. :)

[Cpa Cat]

My husband's parents used to do a variation of this.

They were very poor, so as a kid, my husband mowed lawns for money. Then he'd save up and buy the usual stuff - casettes, comic books, etc.

Then his parents would decide to a bonfire in the back yard and make him throw his belongings into it for peculiar religious reasons. If he refused, they would burn everything he owned, because clearly he loved belongings more than Jesus.

The end result is that he's an adult who is insecure about belongings. He is sometimes irrationally resistant to having other people touch his things, hold his things, etc. When he gets rid of anything, he feels like he's losing something that he'll want later. He had a tendency to want to collect the books and other items that he once owned as a child but were taken away.

The whole process was supposed to make him love Jesus. Instead, it created a person who is overly attached to and insecure about possessions. Also, he doesn't really love Jesus.

A parent often thinks the "lesson" behind punishment is clear to the child. But children see it through different eyes and they often take away an unintended message.

[BZB]

Wow, some of those are awful stories. I absolutely see how having your belongings burned up in a bonfire to teach you a lesson would cause some long term issues. I believe the parents I was referring to simply give their kids toys all the time (a problem in itself). I do like the idea of witholding a toy if a kid doesn't take care of it and they have to earn it back. That seems reasonable and actually addresses the behavior more directly.

[oldtoyota]

My kid threw a toy (that had a lot of pieces) when she had a temper tantrum at age 3. She still remembers that she did that and that she lost the pieces. I'd rather let her learn from her own mistakes. I would never throw her belongings out though. I think that's mean.

No one here has suggested sitting down and talking with a kid about why they should clean their room--stubbed toes, broken toys from being stepped on, etc.

My kid left stuff on the floor and stubbed her toe and then cried. Lesson learned.

What happened to having a conversation? Why does the floor have to be clean?

Choose your battles and give your kids the chance to learn life lessons in a safe way.

That seems rather idealistic. I knew the dangers full well. I just didn't want to do it. Maybe because at least half the mess was my sisters', maybe not. I was young. :)

I guess my kid is just amazing then. =-) It worked for us.

[MrsPete]

A better plan, which worked well in our house:  When the kids left things out, those things went into a "time out box".  The kids had to do an extra chore to get the item back. 

[galliver]

My kid threw a toy (that had a lot of pieces) when she had a temper tantrum at age 3. She still remembers that she did that and that she lost the pieces. I'd rather let her learn from her own mistakes. I would never throw her belongings out though. I think that's mean.

No one here has suggested sitting down and talking with a kid about why they should clean their room--stubbed toes, broken toys from being stepped on, etc.

My kid left stuff on the floor and stubbed her toe and then cried. Lesson learned.

What happened to having a conversation? Why does the floor have to be clean?

Choose your battles and give your kids the chance to learn life lessons in a safe way.

That seems rather idealistic. I knew the dangers full well. I just didn't want to do it. Maybe because at least half the mess was my sisters', maybe not. I was young. :)

I guess my kid is just amazing then. =-) It worked for us.

Probably is! :)

[Travis]

A better plan, which worked well in our house:  When the kids left things out, those things went into a "time out box".  The kids had to do an extra chore to get the item back.

My son is four years old.  As soon as he was old enough to understand consequences and pick up after himself we started using a laundry basket on top of the fridge as the "time out" for hours or days as the situation required.  We had to change that system though because the shock value wore off and he start using it as a long term storage system for toys he really didn't care about.  At that point we started threatening to put the toys in the garage where my son knew all my Craiglist-in-waiting items ended up.  We also had donation bags which he enjoys contributing to throughout the year so he understands if something ends up in the garage it's not sticking around for long.  The system is still a work in progress with rewards and punishments built in for whether or not he puts away his toys, dishes, and other chores we're starting to give him.  I don't think we've ever actually disposed of a toy as a punishment despite every toy he owns having had a turn in "time out."

[MayDay]

My kids are 4 and 6.

If a toy is being fought over or plated with inappropriately (being thrown or intentionally broken for example) it goes intime out. Somewhere between a day to a week.

If I have asked them to clean up and they refuse, they get warned that if they don't take care of their things, we will give them to someone who will. Often my daughter voluntarily chooses to give the stuff away- after all, if she cared she would have picked it up in the first place!

I actually think I may have donated one thing under protest. I held onto the item for a few weeks so that if they continued to be upset about losing it. Not surprisingly, when we discussed it again a few days later, they were fine with donating.

[arebelspy]

Does anyone think the giving them away (to charity) as a punishment teaches children that giving to charity is bad?

I'm  not a fan of getting rid of any toys as a punishment, but am a fan of teaching the child to freely give them away and getting a rewarding feeling from doing so.

[RootofGood]

Wow, we must be horrible parents!  :)

Rarely will we actually toss toys out, but we do for things that are worthless (ie no charity would accept them) or worth very little (low probability of having any marketability to a third party).  More typical is to "toss them out" in a garbage bag that we actually store away in a closet and bring out in a few months (so far we haven't bagged up any sentimental rabbits from overseas fathers as far as we know :) ). 

My kids must be in the bottom decile of responsibility and hard work, because we can request 10 times over the course of a week to get them to pick up toys and clutter on the floor.  In the past, those requests were ineffective so out came Daddy's White Trash Bag of Great Disappearance (tm).  I tell them you can pick up or I can pick up, and I can pick up in 5 minutes and don't mind doing it.  They know what "pick up" means.  These days they take the threats pretty seriously and it only takes a request or two before they are reluctantly picking up their possessions. 

Bagging up toys (and/or tossing them out) is only a punishment in small part.  It's mostly an effective asset management strategy to keep clutter from piling to the ceiling.  After the 10th warning it seems completely reasonable to remove obviously discarded toys and junk if the kids have no interest in doing so to start with.  In fact, leaving them all over the floor presents a health hazard when it impedes the ability to walk around. 

I honestly think they aren't attached to a lot of their stuff.  They don't want to donate or toss out most of it, but are almost indifferent to someone else tossing it for them. 

We work on things like:
 

• if it's broken, let's get rid of it
• do you still play with it, or are you done and want to pass it on?
• is it used up or beyond it's useful life (pens, markers, glue bottles, lip gloss, etc)?
• you have seven of these, do you really need all seven?
• when in the store, we'll remind them "do you really need another X?  You have Y of those laying on the floor at home already."
• when in the store, we'll remind them "the last one of those broke within hours and went straight to the trash.  Good purchase?"

It's not that we have a lot of toys - we don't.  Even at age 9, the oldest was still so excited to tear apart a big cardboard box last night and use it to sled down the stairs.  At what age will cardboard boxes become less cool than Xboxes?  :)

[CommonCents]

It's not that we have a lot of toys - we don't.  Even at age 9, the oldest was still so excited to tear apart a big cardboard box last night and use it to sled down the stairs.  At what age will cardboard boxes become less cool than Xboxes?  :)

Never!

We moved a lot (Coast Guard).  I remember playing with boxes for weeks after a move: Sledding (although outside more often), box a sibling up and "tumble" the box around the yard, create a house/fort/lemonade stand/car/etc.  And the big thick brown wrapping material - oh!  Those became extensive towns we drew for my brother to play with his cars on.

I am giving away my boxes (we religiously save them in our family) now that I've bought a house and theoretically won't be moving again for a long while to two friends that are both moving, and I had a panic moment "but I could use it for blocking my sisters dog off when we are dog sitting or for a game for my nephew or..."  So I went and pulled a few from the giveaway pile to keep.  :)

[MayDay]

Does anyone think the giving them away (to charity) as a punishment teaches children that giving to charity is bad?

I'm  not a fan of getting rid of any toys as a punishment, but am a fan of teaching the child to freely give them away and getting a rewarding feeling from doing so.

It totally depends on how your phrase it and the temperament of the child. 

Some children will be absolutely devastated by the loss of the tiniest piece of junk.  Most, in my experience, really won't care much if you donate a toy they left sitting around.  It's pretty easy to treat it as a game, a fun thing to do, a contest to see who can find the most old toys to donate, etc. 

Like RootofGood said, you will very quickly become absolutely overwhelmed with stuff unless either 1.  You have no family who gives material gifts, or 2.  You manage to become one of those very few parents who is able to divert the gifts. 

Number 2 Is difficult because it is constant and unrelenting, and often leads to hurt feelings.  Very few parents manage to do it.  It seems to break down to something like 85% have houses that look like a bomb went off, 14% declutter after the gifts come in, and 1% manage to stop them from coming in in the first place.

The declutter group is where I belong.  When they are babies and toddlers, you just do it.  As they get older you teach them the joy of minimalism and donating to charity.  Once they understand that, you remind them that they can either put their crap away, or you can find it a home with someone who will take care of it. 

[sheepstache]

Yeah, I think this could be very traumatizing.  You could easily create a hoarder.

My mom did it and I learned to store my stuff outside the house (in my locker or with friends when I was a kid) and in my (legally owned by me) car when I was older.  It made me very distrustful.

Seriously, that's the lesson you learned - rather than the (easier) lesson to put your toys away?

Dragoncar wasn't quoting a specific example, but I think this is more about how it's done.  As a number of people are pointing out, it has to be done in a sensible and predictable way.  I mean, if she was putting things in her locker and car then that sort of is putting things away so I assume she didn't have a problem with that but rather with a parent who threw things out without warning.

[RootofGood]

Number 2 Is difficult because it is constant and unrelenting, and often leads to hurt feelings.  Very few parents manage to do it.  It seems to break down to something like 85% have houses that look like a bomb went off, 14% declutter after the gifts come in, and 1% manage to stop them from coming in in the first place.

I'm always secretly smiling on the inside when people show up without gifts or they give gift cards.  My oldest just spent her gift card on some (sorely needed) new summer swimsuit and swim goggles.  Way better than a 17th barbie doll. 

And we are blessed with broke family on one side and thrifty family that gives small cash gifts on my side of the family.  Most friends are either thrifty or of modest means (yay lowish income neighborhood and school!), which translates into modest but thoughtful gifts. 

[Gin1984]

Yeah, I think this could be very traumatizing.  You could easily create a hoarder.

My mom did it and I learned to store my stuff outside the house (in my locker or with friends when I was a kid) and in my (legally owned by me) car when I was older.  It made me very distrustful.

Seriously, that's the lesson you learned - rather than the (easier) lesson to put your toys away?

Dragoncar wasn't quoting a specific example, but I think this is more about how it's done.  As a number of people are pointing out, it has to be done in a sensible and predictable way.  I mean, if she was putting things in her locker and car then that sort of is putting things away so I assume she didn't have a problem with that but rather with a parent who threw things out without warning.

You assume correctly.  My mom would get mad at something that I did and flip out.  The punishments (including throwing out my things), did not always have a correlation to whatever "crime" I did.

[MayDay]

There are two punishment schemes that I have read about.  One is logical consequences, the other is natural consequences.

Alfies kohen, mentioned up thread, is the natural consequences guru.  For example, you leave your toy on the floor, and I step on it and it breaks, consequence.  Or I sprain my ankle and you feel bad.  A logical consequence is you leave your toy on the floor, I donate it. 

You can argue the merits of both approaches (and I am not fresh enough to argue them effectively) but both are legitimate methods, and totally different than most of the horror stories up thread.  IIRC, the criticism or natural consequences is that your kid might not feel bad that you sprained your ankle, or you might not step on and break the toy, so they never have a natural consequence.  Or not in a timely enough manner.  The criticism of logical consequences is no doubt in Kohn's book :).

[homeymomma]

My mom would throw away clothes of mine that she didn't like (modesty reasons, religious) but wouldn't give me any warning or ever even admit it. It made me distrustful of HER for sure, but I don't think it created any lasting problems.

As for the toy thing, it seems to place an unfortunately large focus on the material objects as the end-all-and-be-all of reward/punishment. Of course it depends on the kid. I have known some kids where even this tactic would not have worked to get them to listen and clean up their rooms... But at that point you probably have bigger behavior issues. One idea I do like is a toy "jail" where the kid has to do a chore (predetermined or picked out of a hat) to earn use of the toy again.

As one who never had a ton of toys growing up, I would have had a hard time with this and felt very personally violated. However, I can see the temptation if the "toys" in question are in fact large accumulated piles of cheap junk, as often happens in houses with multiple young kids. Happy meal toys, crap gifts, party prizes, etc. It could get overwhelming and failure to pick up upon multiple requests might appeal as a good excuse to just throw it all away.

[RootofGood]

As for the toy thing, it seems to place an unfortunately large focus on the material objects as the end-all-and-be-all of reward/punishment. Of course it depends on the kid. I have known some kids where even this tactic would not have worked to get them to listen and clean up their rooms... But at that point you probably have bigger behavior issues. One idea I do like is a toy "jail" where the kid has to do a chore (predetermined or picked out of a hat) to earn use of the toy again.

For me, it's not merely to get them to listen, but a tactic to permanently or semi-permanently remove the issue.  The issue being too much stuff cluttering the floor.  When it becomes overly burdensome for the child to pick up the floor, I can "help" by bagging up the clearly unprized possessions for an extended stretch in Toy Purgatory (the top of their closet) or if worthless, Toy Hell (the 96 gallon trash can outside). 

Once their toy collection is "right sized", they don't seem to have a problem with clutter all over the floor.  It's much easier to pick up 7 toys than 60 toys, for example.  Over time, they have learned that it's okay to get rid of unwanted toys that they don't play with, and keep the most important toys.

[netskyblue]

Once when I was a kid our mom threatened to throw away the toys that we had laying out if we didn't pick them up.  We didn't, and a few days later she came around with a big black garbage bag and started tossing them in.  We all shouted No! and ran around scrambling to pick up what we could, all the while she kept putting whatever was in her path into the garbage bag.

We thought at the time that she threw them away but some time later (weeks? a  month?) she gave them back and said if she tells us to put our toys away, we put them away, or next time we won't be getting them back.

It didn't happen again.

[ASquared]

Surprised to see so many Mustachians into "punishing" their children. The Mustachians tend to be a highly educated, ahead of the curve, refuse to be mainstream kind of people.  Surely you all know the serious negative long term effects of punishing children, not to mention that it's generally ineffective in what you are actually trying to accomplish.

Check out Alfie Kohn and Dan Siegal

[mxt0133]

The new term is "consequences".  So in the case of toys and clutter, it would go along the lines of if there are too many toys for you to clean up then some of them will go away to make it easier for you to pick up after you are done with playing.

I have to admit I got a little ahead of myself as I started this strategy with my three year old thinking that he had a fully developed frontal lobe.  Which according to some "scientists" and "experts" say that it is still being developed and self-control and memory might not be fully developed or something along those lines, I'll take their word for it.

Just tonight my son who was trying to go number 1 had the seat down and when I asked him to put the seat up and he just looked at me and then tried to go.  When I ask him again and didn't get an acknowledgment, I put the seat up.  After that he tried to put it down and then we got into a tug of war contest.  I was just stubbornly holding it up when he started crying.  I tried to reason with him but at that point it was too late.

So yeah, I'll try consequences again in a year or two.

[galliver]

A friend shared this last week, it seems relevant to this discussion: http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/the-risk-of-material-parenting/

[Bob W]

Just a couple of asides -- 

The word discipline from Latin means "to make a disciple."   I often feel that punishment is used when leadership and setting examples would work fine.

Also,  "time out" is very popular nowadays but recent studies have confirmed what I have always witnessed and believed ---  time out has a much bigger and lasting negative effect on children's brains than spanking.   It seems that for humans social isolation from other humans is the ultimate painful punishment.    I still use it but very infrequently as I can see how traumatic it is for my 7 year old.   

[Lyssa]

I think it depends on the individual child if this is emotional abuse or not. As a very introverted child (probably somewhere on the autistic spectrum according to more recent standards) it would have devestated me if somebody would have thrown away one of my favourites. It also probably would have prevented me from becoming the decluttering expert which I am today. And yes, this kind of methods breeds distrust. When I was such a picky eater that our family MD lectured my mother about the dangers of underweight and malnourishment she (understandebly) resorted to trying to trick me into eating or drinking things which I otherwise would have rejected (e.g. pouring orange juice in my favourite yellow soda). As you probably can guess this did nothing to help my picky eating...

[Gin1984]

Just a couple of asides -- 

The word discipline from Latin means "to make a disciple."   I often feel that punishment is used when leadership and setting examples would work fine.

Also,  "time out" is very popular nowadays but recent studies have confirmed what I have always witnessed and believed ---  time out has a much bigger and lasting negative effect on children's brains than spanking.   It seems that for humans social isolation from other humans is the ultimate painful punishment.    I still use it but very infrequently as I can see how traumatic it is for my 7 year old.

I'd be interested in those studies, any links?

[CommonCents]

So, I have to ask: What ARE you to do with kids who have behaved poorly, if you are not to spank them, hold time out, take away toys or privileges?  (Not before they behave poorly, when you are modeling perfect behavior.)  It's seems there's a lot of don't do this or don't do that, but as a parent* I wouldn't be happy being left with only talking to them, because whether there's a study on it or not, I question if that works, having seen a lot of kids just ignore it.

*no kids here yet

[Gin1984]

So, I have to ask: What ARE you to do with kids who have behaved poorly, if you are not to spank them, hold time out, take away toys or privileges?  (Not before they behave poorly, when you are modeling perfect behavior.)  It's seems there's a lot of don't do this or don't do that, but as a parent* I wouldn't be happy being left with only talking to them, because whether there's a study on it or not, I question if that works, having seen a lot of kids just ignore it.

*no kids here yet

The reason I am interested in those studies is because my child development class from oh 2009, said time outs were the good idea.  You remove them and either time out for a minute per age or direct to something better if it is not a huge issue.  Like say the kid is going for the dog, you don't hit them and say go get a time out, you just redirect them to the stuffed dog.  Vs the kid tries to run into the street at 1.5 (I'd spank them because they are to young to understand but no more force than you'd use on a small dog for grabbing something).  Time out would be for hitting.

[Toffeemama]

I've been thinking about something my husband told me the other day, and I haven't been able to get my thoughts completely around it:

When he was a kid(all the way up to in his teens, from what I gather), his mom would throw his and his brother's toys away without warning during bouts of cleaning.  She claims it was only stuff that had been "clutter", but from what I've heard from my husband and his brothers, she would frequently take things from under the bed, stuffed animals from on top of the bed, and other toys that had been put away.  She would never mention what she had thrown away unless they asked her about it, and the she would just say that the "Trash Lady" paid them a visit.

This sounds abusive to me, but am I making too big a deal over this?  My husband is still deeply resentful, and has never really learned to put away his things either.  Is this weird?

[CommonCents]

I've been thinking about something my husband told me the other day, and I haven't been able to get my thoughts completely around it:

When he was a kid(all the way up to in his teens, from what I gather), his mom would throw his and his brother's toys away without warning during bouts of cleaning.  She claims it was only stuff that had been "clutter", but from what I've heard from my husband and his brothers, she would frequently take things from under the bed, stuffed animals from on top of the bed, and other toys that had been put away.  She would never mention what she had thrown away unless they asked her about it, and the she would just say that the "Trash Lady" paid them a visit.

This sounds abusive to me, but am I making too big a deal over this?  My husband is still deeply resentful, and has never really learned to put away his things either.  Is this weird?

Well, it seems pretty inconsistent behavior not linked to anything in particular (not that the toys weren't put away, or as punishments for behavior), so if anything, I suspect it might teach him to hide things important to him.

[Pigeon]

I think it's borderline abusive.

We would take the toys away for a short period, and the whole thing was clearly defined ahead of time.

[MayDay]

So, I have to ask: What ARE you to do with kids who have behaved poorly, if you are not to spank them, hold time out, take away toys or privileges?  (Not before they behave poorly, when you are modeling perfect behavior.)  It's seems there's a lot of don't do this or don't do that, but as a parent* I wouldn't be happy being left with only talking to them, because whether there's a study on it or not, I question if that works, having seen a lot of kids just ignore it.

*no kids here yet

Alfie Kohn has a bunch if books.  I haven't read them recently enough to accurately summarize.

I've heard from child development people that they basically push time outs so you don't hit your kid, to give you something to "do".  But research has shown they don't do anything to change the behavior, they just keep the kid safe from you walloping them. 

[kyanamerinas]

Surprised to see so many Mustachians into "punishing" their children. The Mustachians tend to be a highly educated, ahead of the curve, refuse to be mainstream kind of people.  Surely you all know the serious negative long term effects of punishing children, not to mention that it's generally ineffective in what you are actually trying to accomplish.

i must be a terrible person or have terrible parents as i cannot conceive of how you could raise a child without punishments (consequences whatever you want to call it) and it all turn out ok.

off to have a think and read.