Author Topic: Sleep help needed  (Read 3906 times)

Misstachian

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2017, 07:46:43 AM »
Iíll be honest, Iím skeptical of another book since the ones weíve read havenít helped. I suppose the next book might be the one we were looking for all along. This could also be the exhaustion speaking. We do wake, eat, and play. The problem is that sleep is supposed to follow next in that routine and it doesnít because she screams bloody murder. Iím not interested in getting thrbbany to sleep through thrvnjght. I want her to nap and i want her to sleep for three-hour stretches at night. If she did that then I could return to being a human being.

Anyway, the screamer is finally asleep so I need to do the same. Fingers crossed that I get some to night.

Babies always cry when you put them down for a nap after sleeping.  Always.  It's OK to let them cry (for up to 15 min)!  You're not a terrible parent for teaching your child how to sleep, don't let anyone else tell you otherwise!

If your baby cries for more than 15 minutes, go into her room, check on her/pick her up for a minute or two, and PUT HER BACK DOWN.

Read the book.  If you don't want to read the book and make the changes, you can expect more of the same.

I imagine this is meant with kindness, but just to note that it really, really depends on the kid, and it is very easy to assume you have Done It Right if your kids sleep (and to guess others may be Doing It Wrong). My (older) baby, if picked up, goes from crying to screaming bloody murder when put down. The other day he cried for 45 minutes, which is the point at which I tend to feel like I have to check diaper, crib, etc, and when put down he screamed for 5 hours every time his butt touched crib while we picked up put down, patted, rocked, lay on the floor, etc. Usually he sleeps through the night now - 7pm-6am last night, a particularly good morning hour.

Some kids just don't respond to what the books say. Mine didn't. He'd scream so hard he would vomit if he was left alone, and that just didn't feel right, so we did (and do) what we need to in order for that not to happen. My husband and I also took shifts so I got up before 2 and he got up after that when he needed us. A mom I know just publicly apologized to everyone she sleep shamed after her first baby sleep trained well and easily when her second will not sleep unless being held, not for any amount of time or after any system or sleep coach.

It's not your fault. This will pass.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2017, 07:58:55 AM »
Joel- I had my sister do the research for me on the Evivo probiotic. The UC Davis study you eluded to established that the product does not harm infants. She was able to do some further research of a collection of studies which seems to show that there can be some benefits. I have ordered it to give it a try since it seems that it may be helpful. Iím pretty open to all ideas at this point!
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ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2017, 08:00:40 AM »
I d already spoken to a doctor and a nurse in her pediatrics office and she is definitely too young for any sort of sleep training/cry it out. I need to wait until she is developmentally old enough for that to be effective and not just traumatizing. She is only the equivalent of five weeks, after all.
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ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2017, 08:07:15 AM »
Thank you for the kind words and support, Misstachian. I definitely have tough babies though I certainly can learn more as well. We did the cry it out with my oldest (because going in to ďsootheĒ her only enraged her further), and she would scream bloody murder for over an hour every single time, for weeks on end. The books didnít work because they didnít describe the behavior we were oberving and she didnít respond as the books predicted. We eventually hired a sleep coach at 9 months who worked with us over several weeks, and concluded that she had never seen a baby behave that way before.

***
Update for clarity: the sleep coach was not successful in helping out baby sleep better, just in case I wasnít clear above. She told us she had been doing that a long time and had never had a baby not positively respond to her methods.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 10:33:51 AM by ysette9 »
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Misstachian

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2017, 08:20:42 AM »
Thank you for the kind words and support, Misstachian. I definitely have tough babies though I certainly can learn more as well. We did the cry it out with my oldest (because going in to ďsootheĒ her only enraged her further), and she would scream bloody murder for over an hour every single time, for weeks on end. The books didnít work because they didnít describe the behavior we were oberving and she didnít respond as the books predicted. We eventually hired a sleep coach at 9 months who worked with us over several weeks, and concluded that she had never seen a baby behave that way before.

I so feel for you. Exactly - once we walk in the room it is all over, enraged is the perfect word. But "crying it out", he can scream for hours. If he's just crying, we let him work it out and practice falling back asleep. If he's screaming, gagging, coughing, and vomiting will follow, so we try to get him before that point. It only took a few nights of cleaning vomit (and baby and sheets and pajamas and sleep sack) multiple times to decide that no version of cry it out or extinction would work for us the way the books described. Plus we were too freaking tired to continue trying every single sleep tactic.

And like I said - it took a year, but last night 7-6! With nary a peep! Do whatever you need to do to survive this period. (In lieu of sleep I often chose to eat another dinner in the middle of the night, which sometimes seemed to help a little.)

5 weeks is so very little. She'll get some longer stretches soon. And if you can throw money at it, I wouldn't feel ashamed to do so. You are literally talking about your sanity and ability to function, and it's hard to put a price on those.

Joel

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2017, 09:15:01 AM »
Joel- I had my sister do the research for me on the Evivo probiotic. The UC Davis study you eluded to established that the product does not harm infants. She was able to do some further research of a collection of studies which seems to show that there can be some benefits. I have ordered it to give it a try since it seems that it may be helpful. Iím pretty open to all ideas at this point!

Good to hear. We were recommended it by a friend and we are happy with the results. Iím curious if you have similar results. Please let me know! Hope it helps some!

ManlyFather

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2017, 09:55:50 AM »
Iíll be honest, Iím skeptical of another book since the ones weíve read havenít helped. I suppose the next book might be the one we were looking for all along. This could also be the exhaustion speaking. We do wake, eat, and play. The problem is that sleep is supposed to follow next in that routine and it doesnít because she screams bloody murder. Iím not interested in getting thrbbany to sleep through thrvnjght. I want her to nap and i want her to sleep for three-hour stretches at night. If she did that then I could return to being a human being.

Anyway, the screamer is finally asleep so I need to do the same. Fingers crossed that I get some to night.

Babies always cry when you put them down for a nap after sleeping.  Always.  It's OK to let them cry (for up to 15 min)!  You're not a terrible parent for teaching your child how to sleep, don't let anyone else tell you otherwise!

If your baby cries for more than 15 minutes, go into her room, check on her/pick her up for a minute or two, and PUT HER BACK DOWN.

Read the book.  If you don't want to read the book and make the changes, you can expect more of the same.

I imagine this is meant with kindness, but just to note that it really, really depends on the kid, and it is very easy to assume you have Done It Right if your kids sleep (and to guess others may be Doing It Wrong). My (older) baby, if picked up, goes from crying to screaming bloody murder when put down. The other day he cried for 45 minutes, which is the point at which I tend to feel like I have to check diaper, crib, etc, and when put down he screamed for 5 hours every time his butt touched crib while we picked up put down, patted, rocked, lay on the floor, etc. Usually he sleeps through the night now - 7pm-6am last night, a particularly good morning hour.

Some kids just don't respond to what the books say. Mine didn't. He'd scream so hard he would vomit if he was left alone, and that just didn't feel right, so we did (and do) what we need to in order for that not to happen. My husband and I also took shifts so I got up before 2 and he got up after that when he needed us. A mom I know just publicly apologized to everyone she sleep shamed after her first baby sleep trained well and easily when her second will not sleep unless being held, not for any amount of time or after any system or sleep coach.

It's not your fault. This will pass.

I absolutely am sharing this advice to be helpful.  Per the study the author's medical practice conducted, by week 12, 97% of babies whose parents employed the technique were sleeping through the night most nights.

You need to be consistent with its application.  If after a few weeks you don't get the response you desire, you need to keep doing it!  Deviating from the system too often will sabotage your efforts and sentence you to a year or two of no sleep.

Don't keep switching up your tactics, you need to do the same one for a few months straight.  Using different tactics confuses your baby and robs her the opportunity to learn the skill of falling asleep.

Support groups are a wonderful idea for support.  Be sure if you take advice from someone, be sure to take it from someone who had success with it.  Don't follow advice that did not produce results (this is, unfortunately, common).

Use the Baby Wise method for 12 weeks.  If it doesn't get your baby the skill to sleep, then she is in the 3% of babies that don't respond to it.

Good Luck!

StarBright

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2017, 07:21:59 PM »
Thank you for the kind words and support, Misstachian. I definitely have tough babies though I certainly can learn more as well. We did the cry it out with my oldest (because going in to ďsootheĒ her only enraged her further), and she would scream bloody murder for over an hour every single time, for weeks on end. The books didnít work because they didnít describe the behavior we were oberving and she didnít respond as the books predicted. We eventually hired a sleep coach at 9 months who worked with us over several weeks, and concluded that she had never seen a baby behave that way before.

I so feel for you. Exactly - once we walk in the room it is all over, enraged is the perfect word. But "crying it out", he can scream for hours. If he's just crying, we let him work it out and practice falling back asleep. If he's screaming, gagging, coughing, and vomiting will follow, so we try to get him before that point. It only took a few nights of cleaning vomit (and baby and sheets and pajamas and sleep sack) multiple times to decide that no version of cry it out or extinction would work for us the way the books described. Plus we were too freaking tired to continue trying every single sleep tactic.

And like I said - it took a year, but last night 7-6! With nary a peep! Do whatever you need to do to survive this period. (In lieu of sleep I often chose to eat another dinner in the middle of the night, which sometimes seemed to help a little.)

5 weeks is so very little. She'll get some longer stretches soon. And if you can throw money at it, I wouldn't feel ashamed to do so. You are literally talking about your sanity and ability to function, and it's hard to put a price on those.

I just want to second Misstachian's wise words and encourage you to honor your own experience with your first. We also had a vomitter/multi hour crier/injured himself trying to crawl out of the crib way too young. One of my biggest regrets is spending months trying to sleep train my oldest. With our second child we were much more willing to just try and minimize sleep disturbances rather than try to get her sleeping through the night.

I truly get that sleep training works for lots of people and I think that is great, but it really does not work for everyone.

The Woombie, a very clean diet for me, and an extra long nursing session eventually helped us get stretches of an hour or two but we also ultimately moved to shift sleeping to ensure that each parent got a few consecutive hours of sleep. Around age 3.5 both of our children dropped to one or two wake ups a night.

I've honestly come to believe that it is genetic. I'm a HORRIBLE sleeper.  It takes me ages to fall asleep and I wake up easily and often. I think my children are just the same.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2017, 10:18:43 AM »
I wouldnít be surprised about a genetic component. That would make sense with both of my babide sucking in this department.

This is the second day of only staying home and being a slate to her nap routine: keep her awake for an hour and then it is time to go down for a nap again. She seems to be able to nap flat, swaddled, by herself for maybe 30 minutes. Then she dissed, I nurse and then rock her a bit, see those eyes get droopy, and then put her down again for another 30-45 minutes. Repeat.

That seems to have helped in keeping the screaming down significantly. Unfortunately she woke up every goddamn hour last night to nurse (except for a single 2-hour stretch). I canít describe how brutal it is for me. In addition, her grunting/straining/writhing has gotten worse, so when I would put her down at night she would grunt away and keep me from falling asleep. She is on her antacid and gas drops and I still feel there is something not right with her gut. She often pulls off and strains after the letdown occurs. Getting her to latch last night was sometimes tough because she was arching away from me. I just donít know. Too bad I have to wait a week to try that probiotic.
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ManlyFather

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2017, 10:47:55 AM »
I wouldnít be surprised about a genetic component. That would make sense with both of my babide sucking in this department.

This is the second day of only staying home and being a slate to her nap routine: keep her awake for an hour and then it is time to go down for a nap again. She seems to be able to nap flat, swaddled, by herself for maybe 30 minutes. Then she dissed, I nurse and then rock her a bit, see those eyes get droopy, and then put her down again for another 30-45 minutes. Repeat.

That seems to have helped in keeping the screaming down significantly. Unfortunately she woke up every goddamn hour last night to nurse (except for a single 2-hour stretch). I canít describe how brutal it is for me. In addition, her grunting/straining/writhing has gotten worse, so when I would put her down at night she would grunt away and keep me from falling asleep. She is on her antacid and gas drops and I still feel there is something not right with her gut. She often pulls off and strains after the letdown occurs. Getting her to latch last night was sometimes tough because she was arching away from me. I just donít know. Too bad I have to wait a week to try that probiotic.

Antigas drops don't do anything beneficial in newborns/infants, and may cause abdominal pain or diarrhea if anything.  Probiotics are absolutely unnecessary if you are breastfeeding.  Source: doctor of pharmacy degree and subsequent board certification.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2017, 05:06:43 PM »
My lactation consultant recommended the gas drops and I had my sister use her university journal access to look up the probiotic that was recommended up thread. She was absolutely skeptical (okay, she told me probiotics were nonsense), but then after reviewing the papers she could find she changed her mind and noted that some studies have shown benefits. She did the research so I canít link to anything here. If I ever get some sleep and have the energy to do so, Iíll look it up myself and share the sources.

Anecdotally it appears that when I use the gas drops regularly her grunting and straining is reduced. I have read and heard that they only work in a minority of infants which may well be why you say they are ineffective.
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Anatidae V

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2017, 04:29:33 AM »
Hi ysette9, might have already been checked but have you asked a doc about lactose intolerance? I thought it was super rare/ possibly not real, but my BFF's little girl couldn't breastfeed because the lactose in BFF's milk upset her belly and gave her awful gas. They switched to a lactose-free formula and now she sleeps amazingly well. I really hope the probiotic works for you.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2017, 06:22:31 AM »
Poor baby! As someone who used to suffer from severe lactose intolerance I feel for that baby.

I can ask, but I doubt that is the problem. Yes, she is gassy, but not that gassy. Doing a bit of reading online

Quote
From birth, the baby would have severe diarrhea and be unable to tolerate the lactose in his mother's breast milk or in formula made from cow's milk.
. That doesnít describe her. Her stools have been normal from the beginning.

How distressing for anyone with a baby suffering from
This intolerance. It would cause heartache to know your milk was causing the baby distress.
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Anatidae V

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2017, 07:00:54 AM »
Yeah, it was awful :( I'm not sure about diarrhoea, but I know she screamed after every feed and took half an hour to get the gas out & calm down. I'm glad it's not *that* bad, but still no fun for you!

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2017, 10:04:06 AM »
This kid is constantly evolving to be one step ahead of me. Two days ago I put her down drowsy, swaddled, and she napped for an hour. The next day it was 30 minutes. This morning she gave me 20 minutes, then ten. It is like she adapts to my methods and renders them useless within a day or two. Arenít these sleep methods supposed to get better sleep with time, not worse?
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StarBright

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2017, 11:02:56 AM »
This kid is constantly evolving to be one step ahead of me. Two days ago I put her down drowsy, swaddled, and she napped for an hour. The next day it was 30 minutes. This morning she gave me 20 minutes, then ten. It is like she adapts to my methods and renders them useless within a day or two. Arenít these sleep methods supposed to get better sleep with time, not worse?

So sorry! This is what ours did too (the same held true for discipline techniques as well).

Is a night nanny an option? just for a day or two? it might help you feel more sane at this point.

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2017, 11:42:59 AM »
She often pulls off and strains after the letdown occurs. Getting her to latch last night was sometimes tough because she was arching away from me.

My little guy did this at about 6 weeks of age (adjusted) for about two weeks, then he suddenly got over it. Hopefully yours does too.

Some of the best advice I got was trust your mom instincts. If you think it might be a genetic thing, and that sleep training won't help, then you could very well be right.

I will be honest about my probiotic experience: we used them and I will say they made the kid poop very regularly, but it didn't have much impact on his sleep.

Seconding comments to look into a night nanny or something similar, even temporarily, so you can get a bit of rest. Everything seems more overcome-able (is that a word?) with a decent night's sleep. Hugs!

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2017, 12:39:15 PM »
Something that has helped me is making sure I get one 2-hour block of sleep a day. At some point could you pump, give someone a bottle, and go nap with your ears blocked?
It’s helping me feel more human and sane.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2017, 02:34:16 PM »
Last night when I was losing it I promised myself that when I got home I would hire a sleep coach. I also promised myself that if I didnít see significant improvements in the next couple of weeks that I would hire a night nanny. I go back to work in January and I cannot function like this and work. I am barely functioning now. There are times for throwing money to make problems Better and his is definitely one of them in my mind.

I have to power through four more days because I am away from home without husband, pump, bottles, etc. Once home though I do want to try pumping before I go to bed and have my husband, who goes to bed later than me, give her a bottle once she starts to fuss the first time to give me that 2-4 hour stretch I need.
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lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2017, 07:29:25 PM »
Last night when I was losing it I promised myself that when I got home I would hire a sleep coach. I also promised myself that if I didn’t see significant improvements in the next couple of weeks that I would hire a night nanny. I go back to work in January and I cannot function like this and work. I am barely functioning now. There are times for throwing money to make problems Better and his is definitely one of them in my mind.

I have to power through four more days because I am away from home without husband, pump, bottles, etc. Once home though I do want to try pumping before I go to bed and have my husband, who goes to bed later than me, give her a bottle once she starts to fuss the first time to give me that 2-4 hour stretch I need.

Sounds like a great plan. The first time I tried that I slept as far away as I could, with ear plugs, and a headband over my ears too. And white noise.

If it makes you feel any better, I’m hiring a sleep consultant for $400 and making myself feel better about he cost because a) if I ever have more kids, the cost goes down! B) I have spent far more money on textbooks for school. I think my life and my baby’s life is worth more than textbooks. If it’s money well spent I would pay much more! But at this point I’ll try anything. And I need guidance. Yep.

Northern gal

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2017, 10:01:11 PM »
Last night when I was losing it I promised myself that when I got home I would hire a sleep coach. I also promised myself that if I didnít see significant improvements in the next couple of weeks that I would hire a night nanny. I go back to work in January and I cannot function like this and work. I am barely functioning now. There are times for throwing money to make problems Better and his is definitely one of them in my mind.

I have to power through four more days because I am away from home without husband, pump, bottles, etc. Once home though I do want to try pumping before I go to bed and have my husband, who goes to bed later than me, give her a bottle once she starts to fuss the first time to give me that 2-4 hour stretch I need.

Big hugs. This is so tough. And yes, babies are all different and change regularly.

Definitely try sleeping in shifts with husband, a night nurse or whoever can help.

And since we are talking about books that might help, may I recommend one for you: "The Telomere effect". It looked into how caregiving mothers of older sick children cope and found there are strategies to cope better, mostly around mindset.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:04:20 PM by Northern gal »

sunflower_yellow

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2017, 10:21:29 AM »
I logged in here after a very long absence because your post really spoke to me... my heart aches for you... the sleep deprivation of having a newborn who won't sleep is TORTURE. And I don't use that word lightly. It is HELL.

Newborns generally sleep like sh!t. Older babies don't sleep much better. (Personal opinion: I suspect that the ones for whom methods like Babywise work are generally the ones that would sleep well enough had their parents followed no method at all.)

Despite the existence of a "baby sleep industry," I've yet to see any evidence that anything besides common sense really works. And even then, common sense doesn't always work! Common sense = swaddling, white noise, swinging/motion, having baby rest in an upright position a la Rock n' Play if s/he has reflux, and once baby is old enough, putting down while drowsy but awake.

When my daughter was a newborn, I wish I focused more on my own self-care and less on trying to trick her into sleeping... I would have gotten a better return on my time investment.

So here's one suggestion that has GUARANTEED returns: focus on what you CAN control, not what you CAN'T control.

It's quite possible that your baby will still be waking every 2 hours when you go back to work next month. Deep breath. (I remember how badly I was freaking out at 6 weeks, when I was thinking about my inevitable return to work.) Is there any way you can delay your return? Longer unpaid leave?

Can you shift your sleep schedule by getting additional childcare and pumping bottles, so you can get more/ better/ longer naps during the day?

Do you have someone who will listen non-judgmentally as you vent about how much this bullsh!t sucks? A caring mother figure who won't say dumb sh!t like "this too will pass," but rather will validate how it feels impossible to get through this while you're in the thick of it?

Instead of having to get out of bed, can your husband get up to retrieve the baby, so you're not standing up constantly?

Can you learn to nurse side-lying, so you can doze while baby is latched?

Think coping, not fixing. Think surviving, not thriving.

Once home though I do want to try pumping before I go to bed and have my husband, who goes to bed later than me, give her a bottle once she starts to fuss the first time to give me that 2-4 hour stretch I need.

Yes, yes, yes - a million times yes to this! This is a great idea! And then he needs to do that for a few weeks straight.

Assuming that you can't FORCE another human being to go to sleep - what else can you do to take care of YOU, and help you get the rest that you need?

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2017, 10:55:21 AM »
Sunflower yellow - such great advice. Good reminder for me. Any self-care that is possible is crucial.

sunflower_yellow

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2017, 11:12:17 AM »
The first time I tried that I slept as far away as I could, with ear plugs, and a headband over my ears too. And white noise.

BTW, @lifejoy, I have done literally this exact same thing. Slept downstairs on the couch, every door between me and baby closed, ear plugs, white noise blasting next to my head, and a dose of Benadryl for good measure.

It is SO much easier to deal with a screaming, fussy, non-sleeping newborn when you yourself are not completely exhausted and on your last nerve. So do whatever you can to get to "just tired," instead of exhausted!!

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2017, 11:19:46 AM »
At home I sleep in the other room with earplugs and my husband sleeps next to the baby. I still wake up to her first, if he wakes at all. If he doesnít hear her, does it count as having someone sleep in the same room as the baby for the reduced SIDS thing? ;-)

Last night she gave me four 2-hour stretches which was relatively amazing. I feel like a tired human today instead of a zombie about to be committed to a mental institution.

I am following the guideline of only having her up for an hour at a time and that really helps with her not melting down from being over tired. I am temporarily giving up on trying to have her nap by herself in a bed. She got a 2-hour nap this morning in the baby carrier while I got in a good walk. My hope is that I can get her to nap on me this afternoon so I can nap too. That may be too much to ask for, but Iíll try.

I really appreciate all of the commiseration and support. This will pass eventually, but it is tough.
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lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2017, 01:25:34 PM »
At home I sleep in the other room with earplugs and my husband sleeps next to the baby. I still wake up to her first, if he wakes at all. If he doesn’t hear her, does it count as having someone sleep in the same room as the baby for the reduced SIDS thing? ;-)

Last night she gave me four 2-hour stretches which was relatively amazing. I feel like a tired human today instead of a zombie about to be committed to a mental institution.

I am following the guideline of only having her up for an hour at a time and that really helps with her not melting down from being over tired. I am temporarily giving up on trying to have her nap by herself in a bed. She got a 2-hour nap this morning in the baby carrier while I got in a good walk. My hope is that I can get her to nap on me this afternoon so I can nap too. That may be too much to ask for, but I’ll try.

I really appreciate all of the commiseration and support. This will pass eventually, but it is tough.

It’s amazing what four 2-hour naps can do! Your description is perfect heh :)

sunflower_yellow

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2017, 02:36:17 PM »
At home I sleep in the other room with earplugs and my husband sleeps next to the baby. I still wake up to her first, if he wakes at all. If he doesnít hear her, does it count as having someone sleep in the same room as the baby for the reduced SIDS thing? ;-)

Last night she gave me four 2-hour stretches which was relatively amazing. I feel like a tired human today instead of a zombie about to be committed to a mental institution.

I am following the guideline of only having her up for an hour at a time and that really helps with her not melting down from being over tired. I am temporarily giving up on trying to have her nap by herself in a bed. She got a 2-hour nap this morning in the baby carrier while I got in a good walk. My hope is that I can get her to nap on me this afternoon so I can nap too. That may be too much to ask for, but Iíll try.

I really appreciate all of the commiseration and support. This will pass eventually, but it is tough.

Ysette, btw, good on ya for getting in some good walking. Great strategy to help your body heal postpartum, to help you feel more "awake," to soothe your soul, to give you a break from crying newborn noises, to maintain your physical stamina - so many good things there.

Would it be possible for dad to do a bottle at one of those wakings, so you can stretch to 4 hours?

It's incredible how frequently little babies fall asleep (before they start to consolidate their naps closer to ~3ish months old). Also incredible that their own crying will keep them awake when they really, really, really need to go to sleep because they're overtired.

Why don't babies come with an off switch? Or at least a pause button?

Of course it will pass eventually, but it sure is tough right now. You're doing the right thing by reaching out for support, new ideas, and sanity checks. Hang in there and keep taking care of yourself.

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2017, 04:19:03 PM »
A pause button would be GREAT :D

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2017, 06:16:48 PM »
Pause button would be nice, along with a MUTE button!

I am hoping that her father can give her a bottle for the first feeding after I go to bed. The trick is that he has to get her as soon as she starts fussing just a bit, which means he has to be awake and paying attention. Otherwise I will wake instantly to her little noises and defeat the whole point of the bottle.

Oh yeah, and when I get home in two days he will be home for two days beyond that before leaving the country for two weeks for work. Ugh. My father will be staying with us to help, but I canít quite ask the same things of him. Weíll see.
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lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2017, 07:52:16 PM »
LOL yes to the mute button!!!

I can relate to your plight. My husband is away for work at times and it sucks.

MontaniTrout

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2017, 10:24:15 AM »
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but perhaps you have a highly sensitive child? My 1st son what a terrible sleeper for the first 18 months. 5 years later we realize he has high sensitivities (he hates "furry" clothing, hates tags in clothes, hates others body heat/being held, semi-bright lights, and I can go on and on). I swear, if we knew then what we know now about his sensitivities I'm positive he would've slept much better. I don't post much on this forum, but I feel your pain and lived through it for almost 3 straight years in the form of unplanned back-to-back kids.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2017, 11:11:29 AM »
Good point. For my oldest I donít think she is particularly sensitive, it is just that and disturbance in life at all shows up in sleep problems. For the little one Iíll have to pay attention. She definitely does not like lights and noise in the evening, so it is a possibility.
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Joel

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2017, 11:42:06 AM »
Joel- I had my sister do the research for me on the Evivo probiotic. The UC Davis study you eluded to established that the product does not harm infants. She was able to do some further research of a collection of studies which seems to show that there can be some benefits. I have ordered it to give it a try since it seems that it may be helpful. Iím pretty open to all ideas at this point!

The friend who recommended Evivo to us just shared the following publication on the Evivo probiotic:
https://www.evivo.com/evivo-clinical-data

Have you received it yet? Is it working?

It's hard for us to determine how much of the good sleep and lack of fussing is attributable to Evivo or just natural causes, but I found the article interesting at least.


sjc0816

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2017, 12:19:16 PM »
Sleep begets sleep. Overtired babies reject sleep. These are two facts that I learned with my two. That being said, I didn't sleep train until my youngest was 7 months old....so we basically just survived until then. He never napped longer than 20 minutes until we sleep trained him. Once sleep trained, he started sleeping all night (after three nights of training).....and then starting taking two long naps. Sleep at night = sleep during the day. At least until he was 2.5 when he gave up naps completely.....but was still sleeping 12-14 hours a night.

I didn't feel comfortable with sleep training until he was a little older.....and he was waking about 2-4 times a night until then. Hang in there!

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2017, 06:46:31 PM »
I havenít received the probiotic because I go home tomorrow and am having it shipped to my house, not where I have been visiting this past week. I am looking forward to giving it a try. I hope it will do something more than just make my kid poop more frequently!

I agree that sleep begets sleep. Today she napped poorly for the first two (30 minutes, even though I wore her the first time and held her the second). Finally she napped three full hours this afternoon with my sister wearing her. She was a happy camper after that, but still put up a Massive Fight at bedtime. She is sleeping quietly beside me now. Fingers crossed for tomorrow which I predict will be a rough day. 1.5+ hours in the car followed by a 6-hour plane ride that lands 1.5 hours after she wants to go to bed. Oh well, power through tomorrow and then I will at least be home.
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Northern gal

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2017, 08:28:25 PM »
For baby-induced insomnia, my life saver has been Doxylamine succinate (trading in Australia as Restavit). Some nights I had to take 0.5 tablet, close all doors, and leave DH to it until the leaking boobies woke me.

Maybe check with your doc etc. but if you need to knock yourself out on a weekend and regain your sanity that is what I did (maybe 4 times during the first year) when at breaking point.

BTW random tangent: my doc at the time mentioned there was a study that found women were more likely to wake to a crying baby than men, I think it was due to progesterone levels but I can't seem to find the study. But SIDS and co-sleeping research also shows it is an actual biological gender difference, rather than a case of uncaring male, mothers also naturally co-sleep in the protective side position, dads don't.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:36:15 PM by Northern gal »

Sweetpotatofries

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2017, 05:10:55 PM »
For baby-induced insomnia, my life saver has been Doxylamine succinate (trading in Australia as Restavit). Some nights I had to take 0.5 tablet, close all doors, and leave DH to it until the leaking boobies woke me.

Maybe check with your doc etc. but if you need to knock yourself out on a weekend and regain your sanity that is what I did (maybe 4 times during the first year) when at breaking point.

BTW random tangent: my doc at the time mentioned there was a study that found women were more likely to wake to a crying baby than men, I think it was due to progesterone levels but I can't seem to find the study. But SIDS and co-sleeping research also shows it is an actual biological gender difference, rather than a case of uncaring male, mothers also naturally co-sleep in the protective side position, dads don't.


This is Unisom in the US and it was recommended by my midwife and by other OBs as safe to take even daily while pregnant or breastfeeding. I did, and still do. I've always had sleep problems and this exacerbated it. It's also sold by Kirkland (Costco) under the drug name.

protostache

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2017, 05:55:50 PM »
For baby-induced insomnia, my life saver has been Doxylamine succinate (trading in Australia as Restavit). Some nights I had to take 0.5 tablet, close all doors, and leave DH to it until the leaking boobies woke me.

Maybe check with your doc etc. but if you need to knock yourself out on a weekend and regain your sanity that is what I did (maybe 4 times during the first year) when at breaking point.

BTW random tangent: my doc at the time mentioned there was a study that found women were more likely to wake to a crying baby than men, I think it was due to progesterone levels but I can't seem to find the study. But SIDS and co-sleeping research also shows it is an actual biological gender difference, rather than a case of uncaring male, mothers also naturally co-sleep in the protective side position, dads don't.


This is Unisom in the US and it was recommended by my midwife and by other OBs as safe to take even daily while pregnant or breastfeeding. I did, and still do. I've always had sleep problems and this exacerbated it. It's also sold by Kirkland (Costco) under the drug name.

Interestingly, Unisom (doxylamine succinate, not diphenhydramine HCl) plus vitamin B6 is an effective nausea treatment for morning sickness for a lot of people. My wife used it all the way through pregnancy.

ManlyFather

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2017, 07:22:21 AM »
Joel- I had my sister do the research for me on the Evivo probiotic. The UC Davis study you eluded to established that the product does not harm infants. She was able to do some further research of a collection of studies which seems to show that there can be some benefits. I have ordered it to give it a try since it seems that it may be helpful. Iím pretty open to all ideas at this point!

The friend who recommended Evivo to us just shared the following publication on the Evivo probiotic:
https://www.evivo.com/evivo-clinical-data

Have you received it yet? Is it working?

It's hard for us to determine how much of the good sleep and lack of fussing is attributable to Evivo or just natural causes, but I found the article interesting at least.

Wow, what a deal! Only $75 per month!  Per their website, it establishes the baby's metabolism and immune system, how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product?  Also per the website, 9 out of 10 babies LACK this specific bacteria!  It must be necessary!

sunflower_yellow

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2017, 07:58:57 AM »
For baby-induced insomnia, my life saver has been Doxylamine succinate (trading in Australia as Restavit). Some nights I had to take 0.5 tablet, close all doors, and leave DH to it until the leaking boobies woke me.

+1 to Unisom, for both sleep assistance and in combination with vitamin B6 for morning sickness relief!

BTW random tangent: my doc at the time mentioned there was a study that found women were more likely to wake to a crying baby than men, I think it was due to progesterone levels but I can't seem to find the study. But SIDS and co-sleeping research also shows it is an actual biological gender difference, rather than a case of uncaring male, mothers also naturally co-sleep in the protective side position, dads don't.

Truth. My newborn daughter would sigh in her sleep, and INSTANTLY I bolt awake and look around. Husband (who is an incredibly caring, doting father with a very strong attachment to his daughter)? He wouldn't stir until newborn daughter was fully awake and actually mewing.

My personal random tangent: before I had a child, I was all "Oh, people conflate gender with sex, there really aren't any substantive differences between the sexes, any perceived differences can be chalked up to the social constructs of gender." Now I'm like, "Differences between the biological sexes are REAL." (Oh, I was so naive.)

Quote from: ManlyFather
Wow, what a deal! Only $75 per month!  Per their website, it establishes the baby's metabolism and immune system, how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product?  Also per the website, 9 out of 10 babies LACK this specific bacteria!  It must be necessary!

Man, HOW did babies survive before the advent of Science Milk (i.e. formula)? I mean, women's breasts produce the real thing - how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product? Per the websites of those Corporate Monsters, "It has an amount of inositol within the range found in breast milk worldwide*, and Triple Health Guardģ with a Dual Prebiotics Blend designed to support immune health, 30 nutrients for growth, and brain-nourishing DHA." It must be sooooo necessary to spend upwards of $100/ month to feed your baby.

ManlyFather, I know we're on a website dedicated to living a Mustachian lifestyle. But please realize that your sarcasm might be taken poorly by a highly sleep deprived parent of a newborn who appears to be in significant discomfort. In fact, it was taken pretty poorly by a non-sleep deprived mother of a toddler who gets kinda Mama Bear when she sees other parents' parenting choices being judged.

Worst case scenario: she spends $75 and learns that probiotics don't ease her child's discomfort, so she can move on to other strategies.
Best case scenario: the probiotics ease her child's discomfort, child starts sleeping, mama starts sleeping, health of individuals and family unit improve.

In either of these scenarios, I think the cost is a SCREAMING deal.

Ysette, let us know how it goes. I'm rooting for you and your family.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2017, 08:18:04 AM »

ManlyFather, I know we're on a website dedicated to living a Mustachian lifestyle. But please realize that your sarcasm might be taken poorly by a highly sleep deprived parent of a newborn who appears to be in significant discomfort. In fact, it was taken pretty poorly by a non-sleep deprived mother of a toddler who gets kinda Mama Bear when she sees other parents' parenting choices being judged.

Worst case scenario: she spends $75 and learns that probiotics don't ease her child's discomfort, so she can move on to other strategies.
Best case scenario: the probiotics ease her child's discomfort, child starts sleeping, mama starts sleeping, health of individuals and family unit improve.

In either of these scenarios, I think the cost is a SCREAMING deal.

Ysette, let us know how it goes. I'm rooting for you and your family.
^+1
As a former sleep deprived mother I would have paid $75 a night for sleep during the worst part of the sleep deprivation.   

If anything helps momma meet her needs to care for her infant - be it actual symptom relief or prophylactic - it is good.  Mommas do everything they can to provide for their babies and shouldn't ever be undermined with mocking. There is no room for any type of sarcasm or judgement when a new mom is sleep deprived -ever.  This is the hardest and most important undertaking anyone ever does and it needs to be acknowledged and supported with respect and awe. 



 
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slappy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2017, 11:07:42 AM »



Worst case scenario: she spends $75 and learns that probiotics don't ease her child's discomfort, so she can move on to other strategies.
Best case scenario: the probiotics ease her child's discomfort, child starts sleeping, mama starts sleeping, health of individuals and family unit improve.

In either of these scenarios, I think the cost is a SCREAMING deal.

Ysette, let us know how it goes. I'm rooting for you and your family.
[/quote]

This is why it kills me when there are articles out there about all the baby stuff you don't need, babies don't cost much if you breastfeed and cloth diaper, babies really only need love, etc.  Yes, all a baby really needs is love. But mama needs sleep. And this particular mama spent an embarassing amount of money (including probiotics-although a less expensive brand) on trying to get any amount of sleep, and felt like a total failure in the process.

RelaxedGal

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2017, 12:24:28 PM »
On the antacid: Ranitidine or Omeprazole?  I ask because my friend's pediatrician prescribed Prilosec (omeprazole) but studies have since found it utterly ineffective under 12 months old.  The Omeprazole did their baby absolutely no good.  Zantac (Ranitidine) is where it's at.

What worked for us:
  • Ranitidine
  • Let the baby sleep inclined (car seat or held)
  • White noise.  LOUD white nose.  I think it was actually brown noise from an online noise generator that my husband played while he wore ear plugs and I slept.
  • Eliminating dairy, garlic, um I forget what else but it sucked.  At 10 months we tried fancy formula for some feeds, then yogurt, then dairy and she had gotten past her dairy protein problem. Apparently the human body doesn't break down the cow protein, just passes it right through to the human milk.  Weird.
  • Gas drops
  • Eliminating caffeine.  Babies metabolize it more slowly than adults.  I made the mistake of having 2 20 oz sodas on our first "Woo Hoo we're out  of the house!" Five Guys outing.  Man, baby was PISSED, I wanted to cry because she wanted to sleep and couldn't. I probably didn't have to fully swear it off, but I did.

We tried a different probiotic that studies had shown to work.  Not sure if that did any good, but at least we felt like we were trying.  I hope yours work swimmingly, and you get some much needed sleep soon.  I think the above helped until ~ 4 months, when she was finally falling asleep at 10pm (at first she fell asleep at midnight!) and sleeping for 6 hours at a stretch.  At 4 months she started teething and that pain would wake her.  Long Live Ibuprofen.

My daughter is almost 7.  She still wakes in the night sometimes and needs someone to come in and get her back to sleep.  She still takes Ranitidine.  We also give her Melatonin (0.25 mg) because she goes into hyperactive/overtired mode without it.  Your little one is way too young for that (I think the minimum age is 3) but keep it in the back of your mind for when your poor sleeper is older.

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2017, 12:56:34 PM »
Yep. Pregnant ladies and sleep-deprived moms have a very narrow sense of humour, if my personal experience can tell you anything! Tread lightly, and at your own risk! ;)

As for frugality... ha. We just spent $400 on a sleep consultant and like $500 on a crib because I WILL TRY ANYTHING.

And what is money for if not to give you your life back? :)

Also I would like to give a major props to any parent in this thread that decided to have more than one child after enduring round one of sleep torture. I hope to sign up for round two, myself, but yikes. Gotta build up my courage.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2017, 01:33:47 PM »
[quote author=lifejoy link=topic=82041.msg1802132#msg1802132 date=1512762994
Also I would like to give a major props to any parent in this thread that decided to have more than one child after enduring round one of sleep torture. I hope to sign up for round two, myself, but yikes. Gotta build up my courage.
[/quote]
Or develop some limited amnesia such as I did. 
I remember asking the pediatrician re second born.  "If I asked you what an effective amount of sleeping drugs was, would you have to notify Child Protection Services"  Her answer was "Yes, so don't".  She had just returned from her fourth mat leave and had five children.  She looked as exhausted as I felt.
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Pennycounter

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2017, 02:18:40 PM »


Also I would like to give a major props to any parent in this thread that decided to have more than one child after enduring round one of sleep torture. I hope to sign up for round two, myself, but yikes. Gotta build up my courage.

That is why our children are 3 years apart!  But my second was a dream with sleep...at least until she was 18 months or so. 

lifejoy

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Sleep help needed
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2017, 02:40:49 PM »


Also I would like to give a major props to any parent in this thread that decided to have more than one child after enduring round one of sleep torture. I hope to sign up for round two, myself, but yikes. Gotta build up my courage.

That is why our children are 3 years apart!  But my second was a dream with sleep...at least until she was 18 months or so.

Thanks heavens you got an 18-month reprieve!!

Pennycounter

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2017, 03:02:44 PM »
Haha, my first was still not sleeping through the night when my second was born.  But even on my younger one's worst nights, its nothing like the first round!

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2017, 03:20:31 PM »
I kept a detailed journal in the beginning of my first to make sure I would not forget and not be foolish enough to think I wanted a second. Look how that irked out!

FrugalLizard, Slappy, LifeJoy and others: thank you for the support. You have said what I would not be able. I am ignoring the posts that get under my skin because otherwise I would respond in a way that I would later not want in print.

RelaxedGal: she is on ranitidine. I am glad for that I input because the doctor offered to switch her when I sent him another angst-y email. Iíll give the probiotic a try instead (in my fridge now).

We survived the really long day of travel, including landing after our bedtime in the old timezone. The baby screamed but it wasnít quite as ugly as I anticipated. She slept decently last night (only up four times). That is one enormous hurdle down. The next enormous hurdle is my husbandís office holiday party bash tonight that he is all excited about and really wants to go to. All I want in the world is to sleep, and instead I will get dressed up and go to a party that starts at 8:00pm this timezone/11:00pm my bodyís timezone. At least he promised me we only have to stay for two hours. I donít care for these types of events in the best of times but Iíll try to not have too bad of an attitude to not ruin his fun.
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lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #99 on: December 08, 2017, 05:18:51 PM »
Ysette, you are superhuman. Fingers crossed that the party goes swiftly! And that you win a prize or something. Because damn, you deserve one.

Also I am not keeping a journal for the exact reason you described - I want the amnesia to kick in reeeeeal good ;)