Author Topic: Sleep help needed  (Read 18552 times)

Dicey

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #100 on: December 08, 2017, 05:49:04 PM »
For baby-induced insomnia, my life saver has been Doxylamine succinate (trading in Australia as Restavit). Some nights I had to take 0.5 tablet, close all doors, and leave DH to it until the leaking boobies woke me.

Maybe check with your doc etc. but if you need to knock yourself out on a weekend and regain your sanity that is what I did (maybe 4 times during the first year) when at breaking point.

BTW random tangent: my doc at the time mentioned there was a study that found women were more likely to wake to a crying baby than men, I think it was due to progesterone levels but I can't seem to find the study. But SIDS and co-sleeping research also shows it is an actual biological gender difference, rather than a case of uncaring male, mothers also naturally co-sleep in the protective side position, dads don't.


This is Unisom in the US and it was recommended by my midwife and by other OBs as safe to take even daily while pregnant or breastfeeding. I did, and still do. I've always had sleep problems and this exacerbated it. It's also sold by Kirkland (Costco) under the drug name.
Can you clarify, please?  The non-sleeping baby made your sleeping problems worse and the drug helped? Or the drug didn't work for you and made your sleeping problems worse? I'm always looking to improve my sleep, so this is genuine curiosity, not grammar nazism.

nora

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #101 on: December 08, 2017, 08:04:23 PM »
I'm sorry you are going through this. We also struggled with this with our child. She was two when she finally started sleeping well. I read heaps of books. I read heaps of blogs, internet info etc. I listened to doctors, nurses, friends, family. I blamed myself for not getting the routine 'right' from the beginning. Why didn't I read babywise sooner? I blamed my husband for not following the latest idea I had. I was miserable, and so was the baby. I resented becoming a parent.

Based on what I had read, or what others suggested, I would change things frequently to try to get some sleep. Eat/play/sleep, play/eat/sleep, wait so many minutes before going in, earplugs, driving around in car, walking around with stroller, carrying around in carrier (slept well but sore back and hard to do anything like wipe own bum, also can't use at night), side cosleeper, cot in same room, cot in other room, white noise, no noise, loud noise, dark room, light room, looking for sleepy signs, putting down drowsy but awake, putting down awake, putting down asleep, outside, inside, in bouncer, 2 hour cycle, 3 hour cycle, 4 hour cycle, breastfeed, pump and bottle feed etc etc etc.

Now that I am not in the sleepless thick of it, I have come to the conclusion that her (lack of) sleep behaviour was normal for her age. Some babies sleep well and others don't. It was nothing that I did, or didn't do, or read that made the difference. Nothing at all made a real difference, except the carrier and then only during the day. It was just her. And I have relieved myself of the burden of responsibility for that awful period.

If I did it again I would spend more money, get more help, take the night in shifts with husband (as I see someone else did above), drink more wine, and just try to go with the flow. The house would be messy, the washing done infrequently, microwave meals, sleep when baby sleeps. A lot of the stress was from me worrying I was doing it wrongly, and the lack of help. It may have been easier if I had just accepted it. Also, getting more scheduled time away from the baby would have been helpful too. Somebody to take the baby out of the house every day while I slept would have been ideal.

Going back to work was a huge relief for me, even despite the poor night sleeping.

As for the recommendation for a dockatot, they aren't recommended for safe sleep. They aren't marketed as a device for sleeping in. And safety should be first in my opinion, no matter how desparate you think you are.

Also I have a friend who had a baby that slept well at the time. That made it worse. She would say it was her strict routine that made the baby sleep well. She has since had a another baby who doesn't sleep, and now has some insight into how I felt.

Tldr: No device or change in what you are doing will help. Your baby is normal. Do whatever you need to for your own mental health.

Joel

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #102 on: December 08, 2017, 09:59:43 PM »
I kept a detailed journal in the beginning of my first to make sure I would not forget and not be foolish enough to think I wanted a second. Look how that irked out!

FrugalLizard, Slappy, LifeJoy and others: thank you for the support. You have said what I would not be able. I am ignoring the posts that get under my skin because otherwise I would respond in a way that I would later not want in print.

RelaxedGal: she is on ranitidine. I am glad for that I input because the doctor offered to switch her when I sent him another angst-y email. I’ll give the probiotic a try instead (in my fridge now).

We survived the really long day of travel, including landing after our bedtime in the old timezone. The baby screamed but it wasn’t quite as ugly as I anticipated. She slept decently last night (only up four times). That is one enormous hurdle down. The next enormous hurdle is my husband’s office holiday party bash tonight that he is all excited about and really wants to go to. All I want in the world is to sleep, and instead I will get dressed up and go to a party that starts at 8:00pm this timezone/11:00pm my body’s timezone. At least he promised me we only have to stay for two hours. I don’t care for these types of events in the best of times but I’ll try to not have too bad of an attitude to not ruin his fun.

Wow, even being fortunate enough to have a newborn that sleeps well I couldn't imagine traveling and going to a holiday party already. Kudos to you!

ManlyFather

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2017, 06:18:00 AM »
Quote from: ManlyFather
Wow, what a deal! Only $75 per month!  Per their website, it establishes the baby's metabolism and immune system, how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product?  Also per the website, 9 out of 10 babies LACK this specific bacteria!  It must be necessary!

Man, HOW did babies survive before the advent of Science Milk (i.e. formula)? I mean, women's breasts produce the real thing - how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product? Per the websites of those Corporate Monsters, "It has an amount of inositol within the range found in breast milk worldwide*, and Triple Health Guard® with a Dual Prebiotics Blend designed to support immune health, 30 nutrients for growth, and brain-nourishing DHA." It must be sooooo necessary to spend upwards of $100/ month to feed your baby.


Formula and fancypants probiotics are not the same (you committed a logical fallacy: false equivalency).  Formula works.  It's not the same as breast milk - no antibodies, more microbubbles/gas in the fluid, etc., but it keeps babies alive.

Probiotics, on the other hand, do nothing at best and harm your baby at worst.  There is no upside.  If you are chasing a placebo effect in the parent, by all means go ahead and put your baby at risk.

I'm in the camp of NOT recommending products that do NOT work.  Especially when there is a risk of intestinal infection (not to mention a lighter wallet/smaller stache).

I don't sugar coat calling dangerous snake oil exactly what it is, especially when it puts babies at risk.  Call me old fashioned.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2017, 08:18:41 AM »
Quote
Now that I am not in the sleepless thick of it, I have come to the conclusion that her (lack of) sleep behaviour was normal for her age. Some babies sleep well and others don't. It was nothing that I did, or didn't do, or read that made the difference. Nothing at all made a real difference, except the carrier and then only during the day. It was just her

Thank you for this. This was about my experience with my big one as well but I need to be reminded of that conclusion in the thick of things.

Joel

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #105 on: December 09, 2017, 08:34:10 AM »
Quote from: ManlyFather
Wow, what a deal! Only $75 per month!  Per their website, it establishes the baby's metabolism and immune system, how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product?  Also per the website, 9 out of 10 babies LACK this specific bacteria!  It must be necessary!

Man, HOW did babies survive before the advent of Science Milk (i.e. formula)? I mean, women's breasts produce the real thing - how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product? Per the websites of those Corporate Monsters, "It has an amount of inositol within the range found in breast milk worldwide*, and Triple Health Guard® with a Dual Prebiotics Blend designed to support immune health, 30 nutrients for growth, and brain-nourishing DHA." It must be sooooo necessary to spend upwards of $100/ month to feed your baby.


Formula and fancypants probiotics are not the same (you committed a logical fallacy: false equivalency).  Formula works.  It's not the same as breast milk - no antibodies, more microbubbles/gas in the fluid, etc., but it keeps babies alive.

Probiotics, on the other hand, do nothing at best and harm your baby at worst.  There is no upside.  If you are chasing a placebo effect in the parent, by all means go ahead and put your baby at risk.

I'm in the camp of NOT recommending products that do NOT work.  Especially when there is a risk of intestinal infection (not to mention a lighter wallet/smaller stache).

I don't sugar coat calling dangerous snake oil exactly what it is, especially when it puts babies at risk.  Call me old fashioned.

Are you a doctor?

I ask because we asked our pediatrician about the evivo product and she had seen their safety and tolerability paper and said she didn’t think there was a risk for any harm. She also thought the research on the microbiome that the company was doing was fascinating and the potential benefits could very much be worth it. Maybe she’s just helping them sell the “snake oil” though?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 08:42:10 AM by Joel »

ManlyFather

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #106 on: December 09, 2017, 09:19:01 AM »
Quote from: ManlyFather
Wow, what a deal! Only $75 per month!  Per their website, it establishes the baby's metabolism and immune system, how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product?  Also per the website, 9 out of 10 babies LACK this specific bacteria!  It must be necessary!

Man, HOW did babies survive before the advent of Science Milk (i.e. formula)? I mean, women's breasts produce the real thing - how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product? Per the websites of those Corporate Monsters, "It has an amount of inositol within the range found in breast milk worldwide*, and Triple Health Guard® with a Dual Prebiotics Blend designed to support immune health, 30 nutrients for growth, and brain-nourishing DHA." It must be sooooo necessary to spend upwards of $100/ month to feed your baby.


Formula and fancypants probiotics are not the same (you committed a logical fallacy: false equivalency).  Formula works.  It's not the same as breast milk - no antibodies, more microbubbles/gas in the fluid, etc., but it keeps babies alive.

Probiotics, on the other hand, do nothing at best and harm your baby at worst.  There is no upside.  If you are chasing a placebo effect in the parent, by all means go ahead and put your baby at risk.

I'm in the camp of NOT recommending products that do NOT work.  Especially when there is a risk of intestinal infection (not to mention a lighter wallet/smaller stache).

I don't sugar coat calling dangerous snake oil exactly what it is, especially when it puts babies at risk.  Call me old fashioned.

Are you a doctor?

I ask because we asked our pediatrician about the evivo product and she had seen their safety and tolerability paper and said she didn’t think there was a risk for any harm. She also thought the research on the microbiome that the company was doing was fascinating and the potential benefits could very much be worth it. Maybe she’s just helping them sell the “snake oil” though?

I'm a pharmacist with a doctor of pharmacy degree.  So technically, I am a doctor, but not the type that most people associate with "doctor."  In addition, I am a preceptor/teacher for pharmacy students.  I am a board certified pharmacotherapist.  Also, I have over 30 publications in national pharmacy journals.

I'm not a medical doctor/doctor of osteopathy, so I have no training on diagnosing disease.  I am, however, an expert in how chemicals/drugs/etc. move, work, affect, and effect the human body.  I also have extensive training in drug product design and manufacturing, statistical analysis, and study/methods design.

If you actually have questions about probiotics (or other drugs you give to babies), let me know.  If you're looking for me to validate your opinions/feelings, I won't do it unless there is solid evidence to back it up.

As for this particular probiotic, there are no USP or GMP certifications for it.  That means that from a QA perspective, there is no way to validate its production.  In addition, the risk of contamination of a nutritional supplement (which are regulated differently than drugs) is EXTREMELY high.  When we consider that there is lax QA due to the absence of GMP and USP certifications, for a product that contains bacteria meant to colonize/infect a baby, I am appropriately against it.  Especially when there is absolutely no prospective, high quality studies available to support its use.

However, if you want to just reject these facts and follow your gut feelings, go ahead and give your baby some weird bacteria.  I certainly won't be giving my baby any.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #107 on: December 09, 2017, 09:38:17 AM »
Ah, i can finally share some of the research. This doesn’t claim to help sleep, but promote better gut health. My personal hope is it will reduce the grunting and straining and crying at feedings , which will make her more comfortable overall and more likely to sleep.


Quote
Administration of probiotics to premature infants in most of the clinical trials performed to date is associated with a decreased incidence of NEC (52,53). Routine administration of probiotics to all premature infants has been proposed and is common practice in many countries (54,55).

Quote
In the distal gut, HMOs are selectively consumed by B. infantis creating a microbiota that is limited in diversity but associated with improved growth and vaccine responsiveness in term infants and decreased NEC in premature infants. HMOs activate a variety of genes in B. infantis that allow it to dominate the gut microbiota and benefit the host by accelerating maturation of the immune response, limiting excessive inflammation, improving intestinal permeability, and increasing acetate production. This symbiotic relationship is a compelling example of coevolution of two species to temporarily protect the full term neonate and nourish a healthy gut microbiota prior to weaning. In the premature infant, this colonization is disrupted and the provision of both human milk and probiotic B. infantis appears to be both restorative and protective

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350908/
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 09:40:40 AM by ysette9 »

Amourdevin

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #108 on: December 09, 2017, 10:11:03 AM »
Quote from: ManlyFather
Wow, what a deal! Only $75 per month!  Per their website, it establishes the baby's metabolism and immune system, how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product?  Also per the website, 9 out of 10 babies LACK this specific bacteria!  It must be necessary!

Man, HOW did babies survive before the advent of Science Milk (i.e. formula)? I mean, women's breasts produce the real thing - how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product? Per the websites of those Corporate Monsters, "It has an amount of inositol within the range found in breast milk worldwide*, and Triple Health Guard® with a Dual Prebiotics Blend designed to support immune health, 30 nutrients for growth, and brain-nourishing DHA." It must be sooooo necessary to spend upwards of $100/ month to feed your baby.


Formula and fancypants probiotics are not the same (you committed a logical fallacy: false equivalency).  Formula works.  It's not the same as breast milk - no antibodies, more microbubbles/gas in the fluid, etc., but it keeps babies alive.

Probiotics, on the other hand, do nothing at best and harm your baby at worst.  There is no upside.  If you are chasing a placebo effect in the parent, by all means go ahead and put your baby at risk.

I'm in the camp of NOT recommending products that do NOT work.  Especially when there is a risk of intestinal infection (not to mention a lighter wallet/smaller stache).

I don't sugar coat calling dangerous snake oil exactly what it is, especially when it puts babies at risk.  Call me old fashioned.

Are you a doctor?

I ask because we asked our pediatrician about the evivo product and she had seen their safety and tolerability paper and said she didn’t think there was a risk for any harm. She also thought the research on the microbiome that the company was doing was fascinating and the potential benefits could very much be worth it. Maybe she’s just helping them sell the “snake oil” though?

I'm a pharmacist with a doctor of pharmacy degree.  So technically, I am a doctor, but not the type that most people associate with "doctor."  In addition, I am a preceptor/teacher for pharmacy students.  I am a board certified pharmacotherapist.  Also, I have over 30 publications in national pharmacy journals.

I'm not a medical doctor/doctor of osteopathy, so I have no training on diagnosing disease.  I am, however, an expert in how chemicals/drugs/etc. move, work, affect, and effect the human body.  I also have extensive training in drug product design and manufacturing, statistical analysis, and study/methods design.

If you actually have questions about probiotics (or other drugs you give to babies), let me know.  If you're looking for me to validate your opinions/feelings, I won't do it unless there is solid evidence to back it up.

As for this particular probiotic, there are no USP or GMP certifications for it.  That means that from a QA perspective, there is no way to validate its production.  In addition, the risk of contamination of a nutritional supplement (which are regulated differently than drugs) is EXTREMELY high.  When we consider that there is lax QA due to the absence of GMP and USP certifications, for a product that contains bacteria meant to colonize/infect a baby, I am appropriately against it.  Especially when there is absolutely no prospective, high quality studies available to support its use.

However, if you want to just reject these facts and follow your gut feelings, go ahead and give your baby some weird bacteria.  I certainly won't be giving my baby any.
Minus the very last two sentences, you totally should have led with that dude, instead of first establishing yourself as a grade-A self-righteous asshole.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #109 on: December 09, 2017, 10:22:52 AM »
Quote
As for this particular probiotic, there are no USP or GMP certifications for it.  That means that from a QA perspective, there is no way to validate its production.

This is helpful information. Thank you for bringing it up. I would have liked to have read that two pages ago.

Pennycounter

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #110 on: December 09, 2017, 11:00:20 AM »
Ditto what another mom said! When you are out of this you will have the clarity to see that there was nothing you could do. There is no clarity when you are sleep deprived.

Joel

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #111 on: December 09, 2017, 11:59:08 AM »
Quote from: ManlyFather
Wow, what a deal! Only $75 per month!  Per their website, it establishes the baby's metabolism and immune system, how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product?  Also per the website, 9 out of 10 babies LACK this specific bacteria!  It must be necessary!

Man, HOW did babies survive before the advent of Science Milk (i.e. formula)? I mean, women's breasts produce the real thing - how did babies survive prior to this wonderful product? Per the websites of those Corporate Monsters, "It has an amount of inositol within the range found in breast milk worldwide*, and Triple Health Guard® with a Dual Prebiotics Blend designed to support immune health, 30 nutrients for growth, and brain-nourishing DHA." It must be sooooo necessary to spend upwards of $100/ month to feed your baby.


Formula and fancypants probiotics are not the same (you committed a logical fallacy: false equivalency).  Formula works.  It's not the same as breast milk - no antibodies, more microbubbles/gas in the fluid, etc., but it keeps babies alive.

Probiotics, on the other hand, do nothing at best and harm your baby at worst.  There is no upside.  If you are chasing a placebo effect in the parent, by all means go ahead and put your baby at risk.

I'm in the camp of NOT recommending products that do NOT work.  Especially when there is a risk of intestinal infection (not to mention a lighter wallet/smaller stache).

I don't sugar coat calling dangerous snake oil exactly what it is, especially when it puts babies at risk.  Call me old fashioned.

Are you a doctor?

I ask because we asked our pediatrician about the evivo product and she had seen their safety and tolerability paper and said she didn’t think there was a risk for any harm. She also thought the research on the microbiome that the company was doing was fascinating and the potential benefits could very much be worth it. Maybe she’s just helping them sell the “snake oil” though?

I'm a pharmacist with a doctor of pharmacy degree.  So technically, I am a doctor, but not the type that most people associate with "doctor."  In addition, I am a preceptor/teacher for pharmacy students.  I am a board certified pharmacotherapist.  Also, I have over 30 publications in national pharmacy journals.

I'm not a medical doctor/doctor of osteopathy, so I have no training on diagnosing disease.  I am, however, an expert in how chemicals/drugs/etc. move, work, affect, and effect the human body.  I also have extensive training in drug product design and manufacturing, statistical analysis, and study/methods design.

If you actually have questions about probiotics (or other drugs you give to babies), let me know.  If you're looking for me to validate your opinions/feelings, I won't do it unless there is solid evidence to back it up.

As for this particular probiotic, there are no USP or GMP certifications for it.  That means that from a QA perspective, there is no way to validate its production.  In addition, the risk of contamination of a nutritional supplement (which are regulated differently than drugs) is EXTREMELY high.  When we consider that there is lax QA due to the absence of GMP and USP certifications, for a product that contains bacteria meant to colonize/infect a baby, I am appropriately against it.  Especially when there is absolutely no prospective, high quality studies available to support its use.

However, if you want to just reject these facts and follow your gut feelings, go ahead and give your baby some weird bacteria.  I certainly won't be giving my baby any.
Minus the very last two sentences, you totally should have led with that dude, instead of first establishing yourself as a grade-A self-righteous asshole.

Agreed. Definitely something to think about.

Ysette- have you started using it yet? Any noticeable changes?

ManlyFather

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #112 on: December 09, 2017, 03:46:26 PM »
Minus the very last two sentences, you totally should have led with that dude, instead of first establishing yourself as a grade-A self-righteous asshole.

Re-read the post I responded to in order to understand the order of my responses.  Good luck!

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #113 on: December 09, 2017, 05:28:19 PM »
Ysette, I spoke with a sleep consultant today. Some first steps she suggested were white noise and a DARK (like 10/10 dark) room. I am going to try these things. I hope you’re doing ok <3

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #114 on: December 09, 2017, 06:37:41 PM »
I just got back from a week at a relative’s house where she and I shared a room with blackout shades. I didn’t notice a difference. In fact, it was there that she didn’t nap life than 30 minutes and had a stint of waking up every hour at night. I’ve tried the white noise a number of times and not noticed that it did a thing either.
I did get her to nap in her swing here at home, but only 30 minutes. She did spend a ton of time screaming bloody murder at me today though. Good thing we buy earplugs in bulk.

I’ve given her the probiotic twice now and not noticed a change. How fast should I expect anything and what could I expect? It would be awesome if she could nurse without screaming and writhing.


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lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #115 on: December 09, 2017, 06:40:19 PM »
Sucks that the blackout and white noise didn’t make a difference. My baby is 4 months now and those things didn’t seem to help when she was younger so I quickly gave up on them. I’m hoping to try again and to condition her over time. Shrug. I know it won’t hurt her so I’m going for the low hanging fruit first :)

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #116 on: December 09, 2017, 06:49:17 PM »
There are so many variables it is hard to know what combo might work. Swing and swaddle and white noise? Blackout shade and belly sleeping? Swaddle and bouncy chair? Cosleeping on belly? Sleeping on our chests? Swaddled on her back? Arms free on back in really warm blanket?

Everything above has been tried and worked well at least once, and then stopped working.

I’ve reached out to a sleep coach recommended by a friend to get us set up for some help.

Joel

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2017, 07:58:58 PM »
I just got back from a week at a relative’s house where she and I shared a room with blackout shades. I didn’t notice a difference. In fact, it was there that she didn’t nap life than 30 minutes and had a stint of waking up every hour at night. I’ve tried the white noise a number of times and not noticed that it did a thing either.
I did get her to nap in her swing here at home, but only 30 minutes. She did spend a ton of time screaming bloody murder at me today though. Good thing we buy earplugs in bulk.

I’ve given her the probiotic twice now and not noticed a change. How fast should I expect anything and what could I expect? It would be awesome if she could nurse without screaming and writhing.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

Were the poops a normal yellow before? Has that changed/improves? That’s when we noticed less fussing.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2017, 08:52:14 PM »
Poop seems the same so far, brown yellow and very wet. I’ll keep an eye out.

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #119 on: December 10, 2017, 04:01:40 AM »
Good luck with the sleep coach, I hope it helps! Myself I’m enjoying the support of a sleep coach. It’s a huge load to carry when you’re not getting sleep.

Knitwit

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #120 on: December 10, 2017, 10:00:32 AM »
We used a different probiotic (Baby Biogaia) but I would say it was 3-4 days before we noticed a difference. Hope that helps.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #121 on: December 10, 2017, 10:52:15 AM »
I’ll keep up the hope then that something will work. She seems to be unable to go to sleep without a massive screaming fit of 30+ minutes at this point. This morning it took almost 3 hours of her crying/screaming on and off on me, her father, the bed, the swing, before she finally cooked out in my arms with the correct swinging/bouncing motion. Too bad I can’t set her down without being guaranteed of her waking up within ten minutes.

I’m pretty sure my babies come from a different planet than those for whom “put them down drowsy but awake” work.

ManlyFather

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #122 on: December 10, 2017, 11:51:51 AM »
I’ll keep up the hope then that something will work. She seems to be unable to go to sleep without a massive screaming fit of 30+ minutes at this point. This morning it took almost 3 hours of her crying/screaming on and off on me, her father, the bed, the swing, before she finally cooked out in my arms with the correct swinging/bouncing motion. Too bad I can’t set her down without being guaranteed of her waking up within ten minutes.

I’m pretty sure my babies come from a different planet than those for whom “put them down drowsy but awake” work.

Do the exact same thing, every time, for 2-3 weeks.  If you keep changing things up, you'll keep getting lackluster results.  This will be hard, but it will work.  You can do it!

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #123 on: December 10, 2017, 02:22:30 PM »
I am about to hire a sleep coach. She will help provide guidance on which currently-ineffective technique to repeat since I am not in a position to choose. She can also help guide me on how to respond when the baby reacts differently all the time. For example, I can’t do “put down drowsy but awake” if the baby only has two modes: screaming and (finally) submitting to nurse asleep.

Dicey

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #124 on: December 10, 2017, 02:35:58 PM »
I am about to hire a sleep coach. She will help provide guidance on which currently-ineffective technique to repeat since I am not in a position to choose. She can also help guide me on how to respond when the baby reacts differently all the time. For example, I can’t do “put down drowsy but awake” if the baby only has two modes: screaming and (finally) submitting to nurse asleep.
This is an excellent reason to be mustachian. The cost won't break you, and your sanity is priceless. Dear God, I hope it works.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #125 on: December 10, 2017, 02:46:13 PM »
Haha, yes. Thank goodness for money in the bank! I was having a laugh with my sister about that the other day. I was bummed that ThredUp didn’t sell used pajamas for babies. I never wanted to be the parent that dressed her girl baby in all pink, but golly we are doing that because those are the hand-me-downs we got and I’m not going to spend money on new clothes. However when it comes to getting this kid to sleep, take my money!

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #126 on: December 10, 2017, 02:50:44 PM »
I am about to hire a sleep coach. She will help provide guidance on which currently-ineffective technique to repeat since I am not in a position to choose. She can also help guide me on how to respond when the baby reacts differently all the time. For example, I can’t do “put down drowsy but awake” if the baby only has two modes: screaming and (finally) submitting to nurse asleep.
This is an excellent reason to be mustachian. The cost won't break you, and your sanity is priceless. Dear God, I hope it works.

+1

Yep. It is so nice to have someone help you do the thinking!

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2017, 01:10:48 PM »
Update: I had a phone call with a sleep coach earlier this morning. It was wonderful to speak with this warm, reassuring person. She told me several things that have really put my mind at ease. First, the baby is only two months old and so it is too early to expect her to figure out how to soothe herself alone. That combined with her prematurity means that she needs me to help her fall asleep and stay asleep for the time being. I am not setting up any bad habits and she told me I am juggling a lot with a husband gone on travel and an older kid who needs me also. She repeated the phrase "survival mode"a few times.

She also discussed how the symptoms I was describing of the baby screaming at the breast and both trying to latch and pushing away simultaneously were reflux/acid/GERD. She said that keeping her upright (wearing her) is helpful for that and also explains why she gets so upset at the breast instead of being soothed as my oldest did. She already is on an antacid which is good.

As for an action plan, she said to do whatever it takes now to help her sleep. Hold her, wear her, whatever. She needs that help now. She recommended another person wear her in the early evening when she loses her shit so she can fall asleep and I can do my evening routine with the big one. Come next month we can have the sleep coach over for the official visit and consultation to set a plan for a good sleep routine when she hits around 4 months adjusted and is developmentally able to respond well.

This is an enormous mental relief to me. I am not a bad parent and mt baby is not the spawn of the devil. She is normal and giving her what she needs may not be the easiest, but it is the right thing to do for now. I have my father on board with wearing her and taking her for a walk when things get ugly tonight and hopefully it will go more smoothly. I think I need to spend that one-on-one time with my big one. She threw the biggest epic fit this morning and I suspect part of it is her missing our special time together. Fingers crossed....

protostache

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2017, 02:12:52 PM »
Update: I had a phone call with a sleep coach earlier this morning. It was wonderful to speak with this warm, reassuring person. She told me several things that have really put my mind at ease. First, the baby is only two months old and so it is too early to expect her to figure out how to soothe herself alone. That combined with her prematurity means that she needs me to help her fall asleep and stay asleep for the time being. I am not setting up any bad habits and she told me I am juggling a lot with a husband gone on travel and an older kid who needs me also. She repeated the phrase "survival mode"a few times.

She also discussed how the symptoms I was describing of the baby screaming at the breast and both trying to latch and pushing away simultaneously were reflux/acid/GERD. She said that keeping her upright (wearing her) is helpful for that and also explains why she gets so upset at the breast instead of being soothed as my oldest did. She already is on an antacid which is good.

As for an action plan, she said to do whatever it takes now to help her sleep. Hold her, wear her, whatever. She needs that help now. She recommended another person wear her in the early evening when she loses her shit so she can fall asleep and I can do my evening routine with the big one. Come next month we can have the sleep coach over for the official visit and consultation to set a plan for a good sleep routine when she hits around 4 months adjusted and is developmentally able to respond well.

This is an enormous mental relief to me. I am not a bad parent and mt baby is not the spawn of the devil. She is normal and giving her what she needs may not be the easiest, but it is the right thing to do for now. I have my father on board with wearing her and taking her for a walk when things get ugly tonight and hopefully it will go more smoothly. I think I need to spend that one-on-one time with my big one. She threw the biggest epic fit this morning and I suspect part of it is her missing our special time together. Fingers crossed....

I'm so glad to read this! Practical, actionable advice is the best thing in the world.

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2017, 05:03:53 PM »
Sounds like money well spent!! Way to go!

Anatidae V

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #130 on: December 12, 2017, 02:17:33 AM »
Well that was the biggest, best review I've read for hiring a sleep consultant I've heard. They sound exactly like what you need. Someone else taking her for the evening screams so older kid can have special time? Brilliant. I'm so, so glad this person can help.

nickybecky1

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2017, 09:28:20 AM »
I just noticed this thread and read through it. Cheers! This sleep consultant feels worth every penny already and she's just getting started. It sounds like the reassurance is at least a big weight off your shoulders and there are some concrete ideas of things to do now to manage your sanity. What a great update.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #132 on: December 12, 2017, 09:44:48 AM »
It did help mentally a lot. I did a ton of baby wearing and walking yesterday (17k steps) and we had little screaming until the usual evening nonsense. My father wore the little and I put the big to bed. The little slept peacefully in the carrier for several hours while I did Xmas cards. Life was good.

At 1:30 I was up to nurse little (not for the first time) and half an hour later the big one has a massive toddler screaming fit. It went on and off for an hour, with plenty of toddler stubbornness and unreasonableness. That got me to 3:00, by which time I was hating life so much I couldn’t fall back asleep, knowing little would be up again soon to nurse. So, three missed hours of sleep there. I swear, they are teaming up against me.

elaine amj

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #133 on: December 12, 2017, 10:07:03 AM »
((Huge hugs))

I feel your pain completely. My older had some trouble so I did cry it out at 3/4mo and it worked perfectly. I was a fab parent and wouldn't have a problem with Child #2.

Well my son showed up and absolutely NOTHING worked. He wasn't quite as bad as your little one but breastfeeding was hell and sleeping was a disaster.

I started sleep training about 3 months thinking it would go like his sister. I was strict and consistent. Over the next few years, I tried every single method under the sun (each one very consistently for a few weeks at a time -  I was anal about this). Nothing worked for longer than a couple of weeks.

He didn't sleep though the night until 7/8. Thankfully, by 3/4, I had accepted my fate and no longer railed about it and mostly didn't notice the 2x a night wakings for the next few years.

At 12/13, he begged to share a room with his grandmother (after the first couple of months, he has always slept alone).

At that point, I realized that my kid simply liked cosleeping. And that we would all have gotten soooo much better sleep all those years if I had just given in and coslept. I resisted it because I get a bit claustrophobic.  Knowing what I know about my son now, I wish I had sucked it up and just coslept. I didn't realize it was something he needed so much. Thankfully, at 15, he survived it and sleeps like a champ.

All this to say - every kid is different. Try the different methods but pay attention to your own kid and be flexible.

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elaine amj

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #134 on: December 12, 2017, 10:12:32 AM »
It did help mentally a lot. I did a ton of baby wearing and walking yesterday (17k steps) and we had little screaming until the usual evening nonsense. My father wore the little and I put the big to bed. The little slept peacefully in the carrier for several hours while I did Xmas cards. Life was good.

At 1:30 I was up to nurse little (not for the first time) and half an hour later the big one has a massive toddler screaming fit. It went on and off for an hour, with plenty of toddler stubbornness and unreasonableness. That got me to 3:00, by which time I was hating life so much I couldn’t fall back asleep, knowing little would be up again soon to nurse. So, three missed hours of sleep there. I swear, they are teaming up against me.
And yes, kids LOVE to tag team. Mine were 16 months apart and were amazing at this. They usually timed it perfectly enough that the moment I laid back down after settling one, the other would start. Then I would lay back down again after an hour or so and the first would get going. I finally just had to laugh through the exhaustion. At least it was rare for them both to be at it at the same time. Maybe they knew instinctively just how far they could push Mom?

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #135 on: December 12, 2017, 10:04:16 PM »
I am SO HAPPY the sleep consultant was reassuring and you have a workable plan of action! I know it isn't pleasant right now, but you ARE a good parent and right now your baby needs you. Your baby sounds like one of my babies at that age, and she had reflux too. I also had two children under 2 - so hard! Hang in there. It WILL get better. Do whatever you have to do now to get some rest (seriously, a night nanny would be money well spend, IMO).

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #136 on: December 13, 2017, 10:56:25 AM »
So we are settling into a routine: an hour after waking my baby starts to show signs of tiredness. We then try to get her to sleep either by rocking in arms or wearing in the carrier. In either case she fights super hard, screaming bloody murder for 10-15 minutes before giving  in. What a tough cookie!

I got guilted recently for her sleeping on her belly at night so I tried putting her down on her back. Attempt 1 she slept half an hour. Attempt 2 she slept half an hour. Attempt 3 she popped awake immediately and decided it was play time at 2:30 in the morning. I ignored her for half an hour and then tried nursing her back down when she fussed. It took wrestling through a screaming fit and an hour total to get her back to sleep. I did not put her on her back once she finally did get to sleep.

So I am upset that I am the bad parent but I have made peace with the risks and trade offs. I am irritated that the conversation around safe sleep is so dogmatic and does not include a realistic discussion of shades of gray. How many people cosleep or do other naughty things simply because it is the only way to stay sane? Certainly mine is not the only baby in the world who will not sleep on her back. Sigh

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #137 on: December 13, 2017, 12:23:05 PM »
Forgive me if it’s already been mentioned or tried, but the love to dream sleep sac helped my baby sleep on her back. YMMV

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #138 on: December 13, 2017, 02:48:22 PM »
I know you don't need admonishing now, but I've been reading along with this whole thread and you really need to stop thinking of yourself as a bad parent. Not loving or caring for your child and neglecting them makes people bad parents. Putting your child to sleep in a position in which she is demonstrably more comfortable does not make you a bad parent. Wanting to sleep does not make you a bad parent. Wanting five minutes peace and quiet does not make you a bad parent. Please don't buy into the "every parenting choice you make makes you a bad parent to someone" thing. Seriously, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You love your child and want her to sleep. What's so bad about that?

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #139 on: December 13, 2017, 07:10:15 PM »
I haven’t heard of that sleep sack before. I’m a little hesitant to try it only because I have tried so many things already and I feel like I’m starting to throw my money away. It is an interesting idea though.

Lifejoy: thanks for those words. I need to hear that. It is so easy to lose perspective and I feel a bit guilty due to what I heard yesterday from the lactation consultant. Oh well though. They aren’t the ones getting woken up 6-8 times a night.

elaine amj

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #140 on: December 13, 2017, 07:59:26 PM »
I hear ya - even with everything I "know" intellectually, it's so hard not to feel guilty about not doing things the "right" way.

So I started analyzing the risks, looking up the whys behind recommendations, and then making the best choice for my baby and my family. It helped me feel more confident in my choices.

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lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #141 on: December 14, 2017, 03:20:12 AM »
PS - I would only go for the love to dream sleep sac if swaddling seems to help and you’re inexpert at swaddling :)
That’s why I got one! I suck at swaddling.

Anatidae V

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2017, 03:31:00 AM »
One of the bubs in my mother's group (gov't organised) would only sleep on his belly. We gave his mum support, someone found her a free breathing monitor to help her relax and nobody thought she was a bad parent. You aren't either.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2017, 07:37:14 AM »
She used to do well being swaddled and I consider myself an expert swaddler. :) we got lots of lessons in the NICU  :)

elaine amj

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2017, 07:43:24 AM »
PS - I would only go for the love to dream sleep sac if swaddling seems to help and you’re inexpert at swaddling :)
That’s why I got one! I suck at swaddling.

I struggled a bit with swaddling and my second really liked it. I finally got a scarf and tied him up with a pretty bow! He stayed swaddled until morning :)

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #145 on: December 14, 2017, 07:59:36 AM »
My guys did not sleep on their backs.  Not for more than 45 minutes in a stretch.
First baby slept three to four times longer on his belly.  At 6 weeks I put him down for a nap in the crib and thought I would just put my hand on him while he slept to monitor that he was still breathing.  After a few minutes I thought I will just sit down.  And lean my head against the crib.  I woke up two hours later with the slats of the crib printed into my face and not able to move my hand because it was bent into a weird position.  First born was still napping away.
A few days later at Doctors we went through all the risk factors of SIDS and sleeping on the back is just one.  So we did all the others - cool room, no extras in the crib, parents not smoking, good air quality.  I was fairly certain that I was a greater risk to his safety in my exhaustion than sleeping on his tummy.  He also had really good neck control and was getting close to rolling over at this point. 
With number two we tried the back to sleep but whenever we wanted a little longer sleep, she went to sleep on her tummy. 
Neither of mine liked to be swaddled - they were squirmy in utero and needed to move around ALL the time. 
My number two also needed to wail a spell before sleeping - it was if she needed to release any energy that might remain before she could fall asleep.
This too shall pass. Hang in there.

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #146 on: December 14, 2017, 11:43:44 AM »
FrugalLizard - thank you for sharing. It is nice to hear similar stories.

I was told the breeze/fresh air bit and am struggling to implement because I cant keep my baby warm enough. We have forced air heat running on and off at night; perhaps that can count? By a weird quirk of our house our room gets warmer with the door closed and is fairly cold with it open.

I tried open door the other night with my fatso baby in a long-sleeved onesie, furry warm pajama, sleep sack, and the no-no blanket up to  her mid-chest. Her hands were icy when I picked her up. Last night with door closed was warmer and she slept better at first (second half of the night seems to be wake up every hour regardless). I wonder if I keep my house unusually cool at night or if my babies are unusually cold, because sleep sacks are inadequate.

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #147 on: December 14, 2017, 07:27:41 PM »
When my baby was younger I would warm up the bassinet with a heating pad before transferring her into it. That way she went from my warm arms to a warm bed. Not sure if it was crucial but I don’t think it didn’t not help! ;)

ysette9

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #148 on: December 14, 2017, 07:31:25 PM »
And did you keep it on during the night?

lifejoy

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Re: Sleep help needed
« Reply #149 on: December 14, 2017, 08:23:09 PM »
And did you keep it on during the night?

Oh! Nope. Good thing you asked - I think it could be a danger to leave baby on a heating pad (oh but I was tempted!) so I just put it in bassinet in medium/high 10 min before I was going to attempt the transfer. Then I would remove hearing pad, and place baby onto warmed firm bed. I read about t online somewhere. Makes sense if you ask me. Who would want to sleep on a cold hard bed?? YMMV