Author Topic: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?  (Read 7248 times)

golden1

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #150 on: March 06, 2017, 11:36:37 AM »
If your girl seems ready, start her on time.  At the risk of being stereotypical, kindergarten is set up for girls to succeed over boys.  Boys tend to lag in maturity at that age (and arguably into manhood :P).  More important than actual skills is whether she can sit still for 20 minutes at a time and concentrate on an activity for a short period.  Most kids catch up by 2nd-3rd grade in reading anyway so none of that stuff really matters. 

asauer

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #151 on: March 06, 2017, 01:32:07 PM »
I think the primary consideration should be how you think your daughter would handle it.  If she's doing fine in a large group of older kids now, then she's probably ready.  But imagine her in that more structured, demanding environment- how do you think she will feel/ react?  Make your decision based on that.

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #152 on: March 06, 2017, 03:03:20 PM »
Not sure what the friend meant,  but the "hold back boys" advice does has some basis to it. Late-maturation males are by far the most likely to have social issues at the primary and secondary school level. This could be modeled by bumping them up to a class where they are behind the curve maturation wise. I rarely use "always" in my own advice, but there may be a kernel of truth to this.
Her experience as a teacher is that boys mature more slowly and perhaps aren't "ready" for school at the same pace as girls, particularly emotionally.  (But also in the expectation in some places to "sit still").

Now, for her, it was a moot point.  Her kids have a late Dec birthday when the cutoff was early Dec.  But if they had been born Nov 30, she would have held them back.


Metric Mouse

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2017, 08:18:47 AM »
If your girl seems ready, start her on time.  At the risk of being stereotypical, kindergarten is set up for girls to succeed over boys.  Boys tend to lag in maturity at that age (and arguably into manhood :P).  More important than actual skills is whether she can sit still for 20 minutes at a time and concentrate on an activity for a short period.  Most kids catch up by 2nd-3rd grade in reading anyway so none of that stuff really matters.
Interesting thoughts. Could this be remedied by making adjustments to the activities and expectations of kindergarten so that boys could succeed as well?
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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2017, 10:28:40 PM »
In a perfect world, each child would find suitable challenge in the classroom everyday. They would be working "at the edge of their ability" across multiple subjects, enjoying hard-won successes and learning to re-double their effort when they've failed to master a new skill.  The inherent reward of hard work and the feeling of progress keep students engaged.  In the real world, classrooms, by definition, have mixed-abilities, and if the students are in a traditional classroom, the teacher is pitching the lessons to the students in the middle.  For a bright kid, the pacing or level of material can be mind-numbing. For a really bright kid, the pacing, the level of material, and the "spiraling" repetition in the elementary school years can be absolutely torturous. It is not at all unusual to have a bright kid "call it in" during the first 7-8 years of school, never having to exert themselves much or spend much time on "homework". And then they get clobbered by the demands of high school...they've never learned the skills and mindset needed to get through challenging classes.

So. back to Kindergarten. The problem when you're making these decisions to send or not to send is you don't know what kind of kid you have. You might have an idea, but maybe not. Typically, you can't get perspective on your own child and kids are still changing a lot at 4 and 5 years old. As a parent you typically don't have any yardsticks to help you make these decisions, unless you've had some educational testing done, either identifying IQ/achievement strengths and weaknesses or identifying specific issues your child might have (e.g., dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADD, ADHD, etc). 

Notasoccermom

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #155 on: March 20, 2017, 07:10:01 PM »
I red-shirted my august baby. Kindergarten is way more demanding than when I was a kid. They expect kids to know all their letters, sounds, and know how to write before kindergarten. My oldest was labeled as behind because she wasn't reading in the first month of school. She had to read to a D level by the end, know all her addition and subtraction up to 20, and write full sentences with proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. Plus it was 7 hour days, 5 days a week, with ONE 20 minute recess and an HOUR of homework every night. The workload is insane for a 5 year old.

Hargrove

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #156 on: March 20, 2017, 07:20:43 PM »
I red-shirted my august baby. Kindergarten is way more demanding than when I was a kid. They expect kids to know all their letters, sounds, and know how to write before kindergarten. My oldest was labeled as behind because she wasn't reading in the first month of school. She had to read to a D level by the end, know all her addition and subtraction up to 20, and write full sentences with proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. Plus it was 7 hour days, 5 days a week, with ONE 20 minute recess and an HOUR of homework every night. The workload is insane for a 5 year old.

An hour of homework for kindergarten? Punctuation...?

At a public school?

jezebel

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #157 on: March 20, 2017, 08:32:44 PM »

I red-shirted my august baby. Kindergarten is way more demanding than when I was a kid. They expect kids to know all their letters, sounds, and know how to write before kindergarten. My oldest was labeled as behind because she wasn't reading in the first month of school. She had to read to a D level by the end, know all her addition and subtraction up to 20, and write full sentences with proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. Plus it was 7 hour days, 5 days a week, with ONE 20 minute recess and an HOUR of homework every night. The workload is insane for a 5 year old.

An hour of homework for kindergarten? Punctuation...?

At a public school?
That's insane. My daughter's 8-hr/day kindergarten had a level D end goal too (I think that's standard for public kindergarten in the US) but very few kids could read coming in, much less write well. The levels of skill differed quite a bit.  And certainly not an hour of homework per night. It was one 5-8 page packet per week. No grammar at all. Just a bit even now in first grade.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 08:34:36 PM by jezebel »

StarBright

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2017, 08:04:10 AM »
I red-shirted my august baby. Kindergarten is way more demanding than when I was a kid. They expect kids to know all their letters, sounds, and know how to write before kindergarten. My oldest was labeled as behind because she wasn't reading in the first month of school. She had to read to a D level by the end, know all her addition and subtraction up to 20, and write full sentences with proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. Plus it was 7 hour days, 5 days a week, with ONE 20 minute recess and an HOUR of homework every night. The workload is insane for a 5 year old.

An hour of homework for kindergarten? Punctuation...?

At a public school?

This sounds right to me. We live in a good public school district and our children's daycare sends homework home every week to prepare the kids for kindergarten. My Pre-Ker has a monthly "STEM" projects due every month and occasional worksheets and my 3 year old has a 5 page packet every week. We usually do not partake of any "homework" unless my 5 year old gets particularly excited about one of the assignments and we never turn in packets for the 3 year old because I think it is insane.

When I gave pushback on math facts in the pre-k class recently I was told that this is now standard prep for Kindergarten in our district.

golden1

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2017, 08:24:23 AM »
Quote
Quote from: golden1 on March 06, 2017, 11:36:37 AM
If your girl seems ready, start her on time.  At the risk of being stereotypical, kindergarten is set up for girls to succeed over boys.  Boys tend to lag in maturity at that age (and arguably into manhood :P).  More important than actual skills is whether she can sit still for 20 minutes at a time and concentrate on an activity for a short period.  Most kids catch up by 2nd-3rd grade in reading anyway so none of that stuff really matters.
Interesting thoughts. Could this be remedied by making adjustments to the activities and expectations of kindergarten so that boys could succeed as well?

Yes, I think more movement needs to be integrated into younger grades (all grades really).  Kindergarten is not what it was when I went - it is really more like first grade used to be.  Kids are expected at our school to be able to sit still and pay attention for 20 minutes, which not all 5 year olds are equipped to do.  They also expect that most kids have been to preschool, know their letters and numbers and can write them.  Recess has been cut down, and not only that (and this was my pet peeve) they tend to revoke it as a punishment.  Okay, let's take a crazy 5 year old who has no self control and is bouncing off the walls and get rid of his/her only outlet for physical movement.... 

I volunteered in both my kids (a girl and a boy) Kindergarten classes.  In both cases, the majority of the boys were easily distracted, many of them fidgeting, talking, and rolling on the floor during circle time (including my son).  The majority of the girls sat quietly during lessons and were able to more easily move from task to task.  I noticed the boys had more negative reinforcement and the girls more positive reinforcement.  On the flip side, the boys tended to get more attention overall, both positive and negative, while the girls tended to fade a bit more into the background because they didn't cause trouble.  It was an interesting experience. 

I have seen some school districts where they divide Kindergarten into sub-groups in order to give some of the kids a chance to catch up maturity wise.  They do an eval during the first few weeks and divide into two classes.  Maybe this is an option, but my guess is that parents would try to override the school district if they don't get the answer they like. 

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2017, 09:40:24 AM »
I red-shirted my august baby. Kindergarten is way more demanding than when I was a kid. They expect kids to know all their letters, sounds, and know how to write before kindergarten. My oldest was labeled as behind because she wasn't reading in the first month of school. She had to read to a D level by the end, know all her addition and subtraction up to 20, and write full sentences with proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. Plus it was 7 hour days, 5 days a week, with ONE 20 minute recess and an HOUR of homework every night. The workload is insane for a 5 year old.

An hour of homework for kindergarten? Punctuation...?

At a public school?

Seems excessive. Our school gives "monthly" homework in kindergarten, which averages out to 5 minutes a day.

Neustache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2017, 09:45:11 AM »
I red-shirted my august baby. Kindergarten is way more demanding than when I was a kid. They expect kids to know all their letters, sounds, and know how to write before kindergarten. My oldest was labeled as behind because she wasn't reading in the first month of school. She had to read to a D level by the end, know all her addition and subtraction up to 20, and write full sentences with proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. Plus it was 7 hour days, 5 days a week, with ONE 20 minute recess and an HOUR of homework every night. The workload is insane for a 5 year old.

An hour of homework for kindergarten? Punctuation...?

At a public school?

This sounds right to me. We live in a good public school district and our children's daycare sends homework home every week to prepare the kids for kindergarten. My Pre-Ker has a monthly "STEM" projects due every month and occasional worksheets and my 3 year old has a 5 page packet every week. We usually do not partake of any "homework" unless my 5 year old gets particularly excited about one of the assignments and we never turn in packets for the 3 year old because I think it is insane.

When I gave pushback on math facts in the pre-k class recently I was told that this is now standard prep for Kindergarten in our district.


We had a packet in kindergarten every week, and yes, it was only 5-8 pages.  Here's what people with typical children don't get - that packet takes your child 5-10 minutes a night.  For my daughter who has a GAI in the top 99.6% but a processing speed in the bottom 20%, that same packet could take an hour a night.  Especially after a full day of kindergarten where now she's exhausted and melting down because she kept it together all day.  This is where the red-shirting comes in - if we had delayed her entry into kindergarten her stamina for that sort of work and her improvement in fine motor skills would have made it much easier for her to complete the homework.  We didn't, and I regret it.  She's actually doing great this year; but she has way less homework this year than she did in kindergarten.  So strange!

Psychstache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2017, 10:22:37 AM »
Quote
Quote from: golden1 on March 06, 2017, 11:36:37 AM
If your girl seems ready, start her on time.  At the risk of being stereotypical, kindergarten is set up for girls to succeed over boys.  Boys tend to lag in maturity at that age (and arguably into manhood :P).  More important than actual skills is whether she can sit still for 20 minutes at a time and concentrate on an activity for a short period.  Most kids catch up by 2nd-3rd grade in reading anyway so none of that stuff really matters.
Interesting thoughts. Could this be remedied by making adjustments to the activities and expectations of kindergarten so that boys could succeed as well?

Yes, I think more movement needs to be integrated into younger grades (all grades really).  Kindergarten is not what it was when I went - it is really more like first grade used to be.  Kids are expected at our school to be able to sit still and pay attention for 20 minutes, which not all 5 year olds are equipped to do.  They also expect that most kids have been to preschool, know their letters and numbers and can write them.  Recess has been cut down, and not only that (and this was my pet peeve) they tend to revoke it as a punishment.  Okay, let's take a crazy 5 year old who has no self control and is bouncing off the walls and get rid of his/her only outlet for physical movement.... 

I volunteered in both my kids (a girl and a boy) Kindergarten classes. In both cases, the majority of the boys were easily distracted, many of them fidgeting, talking, and rolling on the floor during circle time (including my son).  The majority of the girls sat quietly during lessons and were able to more easily move from task to task.  I noticed the boys had more negative reinforcement and the girls more positive reinforcement.  On the flip side, the boys tended to get more attention overall, both positive and negative, while the girls tended to fade a bit more into the background because they didn't cause trouble.  It was an interesting experience. 

I have seen some school districts where they divide Kindergarten into sub-groups in order to give some of the kids a chance to catch up maturity wise.  They do an eval during the first few weeks and divide into two classes.  Maybe this is an option, but my guess is that parents would try to override the school district if they don't get the answer they like.

This is pretty much the pattern you see across the board in Kindergarten the last 5-10 years. The only time I've seen any significant break in the pattern is with super-elite Kinder teachers and male Kinder teachers, problem is the former is rare by definition and the latter is basically a unicorn.

There is some traction for more recess and the academic benefits that come with it. See:

http://www.today.com/parents/want-kids-listen-more-fidget-less-try-more-recess-school-t65536

Here's hoping the momentum keeps building.

jezebel

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #163 on: March 21, 2017, 11:47:29 AM »
I red-shirted my august baby. Kindergarten is way more demanding than when I was a kid. They expect kids to know all their letters, sounds, and know how to write before kindergarten. My oldest was labeled as behind because she wasn't reading in the first month of school. She had to read to a D level by the end, know all her addition and subtraction up to 20, and write full sentences with proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. Plus it was 7 hour days, 5 days a week, with ONE 20 minute recess and an HOUR of homework every night. The workload is insane for a 5 year old.

An hour of homework for kindergarten? Punctuation...?

At a public school?

This sounds right to me. We live in a good public school district and our children's daycare sends homework home every week to prepare the kids for kindergarten. My Pre-Ker has a monthly "STEM" projects due every month and occasional worksheets and my 3 year old has a 5 page packet every week. We usually do not partake of any "homework" unless my 5 year old gets particularly excited about one of the assignments and we never turn in packets for the 3 year old because I think it is insane.

When I gave pushback on math facts in the pre-k class recently I was told that this is now standard prep for Kindergarten in our district.


We had a packet in kindergarten every week, and yes, it was only 5-8 pages.  Here's what people with typical children don't get - that packet takes your child 5-10 minutes a night.  For my daughter who has a GAI in the top 99.6% but a processing speed in the bottom 20%, that same packet could take an hour a night.  Especially after a full day of kindergarten where now she's exhausted and melting down because she kept it together all day.  This is where the red-shirting comes in - if we had delayed her entry into kindergarten her stamina for that sort of work and her improvement in fine motor skills would have made it much easier for her to complete the homework.  We didn't, and I regret it.  She's actually doing great this year; but she has way less homework this year than she did in kindergarten.  So strange!

Our daughter tests highly but was having serious difficulties with attention in the classroom and at home.  Trying to get her through homework sheets is like slow death.  And she regularly melts down after school.  No one can tell me that homework is better use of my 6 year old's time than playing!

BlueHouse

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #164 on: March 21, 2017, 01:02:43 PM »
Things are different now I'm sure, but my birthday is early November and I started school at four so I was nearly a year younger than many of my classmates and it was never a problem.  Mom always said I was precocious, but I suspect she was biased.

Same here.  My brother was two years older than I, and went through the same thing.  Except after kindergarten, the teacher held him back.  He just wasn't mature enough.  And it made for a much healthier school experience for him. 

The problem was that all of his siblings called him stupid for being held back, so if this is a possibility, please do it to your child before they go through the trauma.  My family was exceptionally hard on each other.  my brother ended up being the most normal of all of us. 
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Lentils4Lunch

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #165 on: March 21, 2017, 07:45:57 PM »
If you think you may end up having to repeat kindergarten, I would wait. I still remember the kid that got held back in K at my school and it's been 25 years. He faced a huge social stigma for "flunking" that followed him through his school career. Just something to consider.

THANK YOU!!

Having to repeat a year of elementary school is not the same as having to repeat other things in life...  Having to "repeat" a year of college: hey, that sounds awesome. Having to "repeat" a trip to the grocery store because you forgot something... bummer.  Having to repeat a year of kindergarten - oh hell no. This a seriously traumatizing event for a child to go through. It stays with them for life.

I urge you not to take that contingency lightly.

Notasoccermom

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #166 on: March 22, 2017, 06:16:45 AM »
Typically we had 2-3 worksheets, a assigned book they had to read, answer comprehension questions, and we had to read 20 minutes a night to them. It took about an hour.