Author Topic: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?  (Read 7506 times)

nottoolatetostart

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2017, 04:56:58 AM »
So many truly great thoughts you all provided.

A funny thing happened yesterday, a neighborhood mom came up to me while I was picking up my daughter. She mentioned a local church nursery, she used to send her kids as well as her friends kids went there, that is Pre-K 5 yr Olds (need to be 5 before Oct 1). I wonder if it more advanced, more appropriate for her, mornings only (like K here).

I will update our decision. Have 2 weeks until registrations all begin. Right now, I am considering keeping her home another year. Or, not sending her early, as someone else said. My husband is not yet convinced, but we will get there.

I really appreciate all the great points. Truly.

Neustache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2017, 06:15:39 AM »
And also.....either way, you need to work with her on fine motor skills.  PM me if you want some good resources or you can just google it.  Loads you can do at home to help her in those areas...and my daughter is proof that it's a BIG deal to not get it fixed before you get to upper grades. 

sjc0816

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2017, 06:51:25 AM »
Such a personal decision. I live in an area where most parents red-shirt. It's also the land of special snowflakes. Red-shirting just goes against everything I believe. SOMEONE has to be the youngest. Why not mine?

Kindergarten is definitely more rigorous now than years ago - but ours still was NOT a "sit in your desk all day" environment. They have 2-3 recesses a day and incorporate a TON of movement. So maybe it's worth taking a visit to your elementary school to see what kind of learning environment you will be dealing with...

I have two boys - summer birthdays..June and August with a mid-September cut off. They both went "on time" (it's on time if you meet the deadline) and I can't imagine either of them in the class below them, frankly. They are in 5th and 2nd grade now and doing extremely well both academically and socially. They are doing great but we do not need them to be the biggest, best, smartest, best athlete, etc. (Although, ironically, I think being younger has made them better athletes).

There are some kids in our school that will graduate high school at 19 since parents are now red-shirting April and May birthdays. I graduated college at 21....I just can't imagine.

Anyway, good luck with the decision. 

Stachetastic

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2017, 07:05:19 AM »
This is such a great discussion. Our son will turn 5 in March and is on an IEP with social delays. At his last IEP meeting, the principal asked if we would be delaying kindergarten. WHAT? We didn't even know this was "on the table" so to speak. We were initially leaning toward no, and then his teacher spoke up and stated she feels he is ready for a 5 day/ week, full time classroom environment (which was our thinking, as well). His OT for fine motor delays will continue as long as it is needed, and we will continue working with him at home. We are anxious to see how he does at the screenings, as he does not read at all yet, and has limited letter recognition. If our community offered a full time preschool option, we would seriously consider that, but it appears kindergarten is our only option. We are open to repeating kindergarten if necessary. As it stands now, our son does not appear to care who is in his class, or if others are moving quicker academically than he is. Obviously this may change in the future.

a rose by any other name

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2017, 07:51:43 AM »
My son's birthday is less than a month before the cut off, and unless he is VERY ready, I plan to redshirt him. I don't care if he's competitive with sports or even if it gives him a competitive edge academically. I'm not worried about how he will compare to others in his class or whether he's the youngest or oldest. I think the things expected of Kindergartners today are ridiculous and way too much for most 5 year olds to handle, especially most 5 year old boys. When I was in Kindergarten it was only a half day and included a nap, long recess, and plenty of free play time. There was some learning of letters and numbers, but most other structured activities were basically arts and crafts. Now it is a full day with no nap, short recess, little free play time, and they even assign homework. It's probably more academic than first grade was for me. I want my son to have another year just enjoying playing outside and not worrying about tests and homework. And he'll still only be 18 when he graduates high school.

MayDay

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2017, 08:56:09 AM »
This is such a great discussion. Our son will turn 5 in March and is on an IEP with social delays. At his last IEP meeting, the principal asked if we would be delaying kindergarten. WHAT? We didn't even know this was "on the table" so to speak. We were initially leaning toward no, and then his teacher spoke up and stated she feels he is ready for a 5 day/ week, full time classroom environment (which was our thinking, as well). His OT for fine motor delays will continue as long as it is needed, and we will continue working with him at home. We are anxious to see how he does at the screenings, as he does not read at all yet, and has limited letter recognition. If our community offered a full time preschool option, we would seriously consider that, but it appears kindergarten is our only option. We are open to repeating kindergarten if necessary. As it stands now, our son does not appear to care who is in his class, or if others are moving quicker academically than he is. Obviously this may change in the future.

Generally with special needs kids, I've read it's better to send them. They are behind already. Waiting a year isn't going to magically make them catch up-to-date it just gives them an easy year in preschool rather than challenging then in K.

That said, our an kiddo had a Sept birthday. Technically our district has a Sept 30 cutoff so he could have started at 4.95. we decided that was inappropriate given that 90% of summer birthdays were red shirt and 100% of other Sept kids were.

He's a great student academically despite his many challenges with social skills, self regulation, executive function, etc.  to the point that he qualifies to skip a grade in math.

Oops. Guess we should have sent him. 

You really never know with these things until it's way to late!  A gifted kid who never is challenged has bad outcomes, statistically. A kid who starts too early may always feel behind
  At age 4, who the hell knows which one you'll get?
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boarder42

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2017, 09:25:12 AM »
This is such a great discussion. Our son will turn 5 in March and is on an IEP with social delays. At his last IEP meeting, the principal asked if we would be delaying kindergarten. WHAT? We didn't even know this was "on the table" so to speak. We were initially leaning toward no, and then his teacher spoke up and stated she feels he is ready for a 5 day/ week, full time classroom environment (which was our thinking, as well). His OT for fine motor delays will continue as long as it is needed, and we will continue working with him at home. We are anxious to see how he does at the screenings, as he does not read at all yet, and has limited letter recognition. If our community offered a full time preschool option, we would seriously consider that, but it appears kindergarten is our only option. We are open to repeating kindergarten if necessary. As it stands now, our son does not appear to care who is in his class, or if others are moving quicker academically than he is. Obviously this may change in the future.

Generally with special needs kids, I've read it's better to send them. They are behind already. Waiting a year isn't going to magically make them catch up-to-date it just gives them an easy year in preschool rather than challenging then in K.

That said, our an kiddo had a Sept birthday. Technically our district has a Sept 30 cutoff so he could have started at 4.95. we decided that was inappropriate given that 90% of summer birthdays were red shirt and 100% of other Sept kids were.

He's a great student academically despite his many challenges with social skills, self regulation, executive function, etc.  to the point that he qualifies to skip a grade in math.

Oops. Guess we should have sent him. 

You really never know with these things until it's way to late!  A gifted kid who never is challenged has bad outcomes, statistically. A kid who starts too early may always feel behind
  At age 4, who the hell knows which one you'll get?

if they are really gifted they should be tested and put in the gifted programs ... i was it was great for challenging and free thinking. helped me a ton.
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BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2017, 09:32:02 AM »
This is such a great discussion. Our son will turn 5 in March and is on an IEP with social delays. At his last IEP meeting, the principal asked if we would be delaying kindergarten. WHAT? We didn't even know this was "on the table" so to speak. We were initially leaning toward no, and then his teacher spoke up and stated she feels he is ready for a 5 day/ week, full time classroom environment (which was our thinking, as well). His OT for fine motor delays will continue as long as it is needed, and we will continue working with him at home. We are anxious to see how he does at the screenings, as he does not read at all yet, and has limited letter recognition. If our community offered a full time preschool option, we would seriously consider that, but it appears kindergarten is our only option. We are open to repeating kindergarten if necessary. As it stands now, our son does not appear to care who is in his class, or if others are moving quicker academically than he is. Obviously this may change in the future.

Generally with special needs kids, I've read it's better to send them. They are behind already. Waiting a year isn't going to magically make them catch up-to-date it just gives them an easy year in preschool rather than challenging then in K.

That said, our an kiddo had a Sept birthday. Technically our district has a Sept 30 cutoff so he could have started at 4.95. we decided that was inappropriate given that 90% of summer birthdays were red shirt and 100% of other Sept kids were.

He's a great student academically despite his many challenges with social skills, self regulation, executive function, etc.  to the point that he qualifies to skip a grade in math.

Oops. Guess we should have sent him. 

You really never know with these things until it's way to late!  A gifted kid who never is challenged has bad outcomes, statistically. A kid who starts too early may always feel behind
  At age 4, who the hell knows which one you'll get?

if they are really gifted they should be tested and put in the gifted programs ... i was it was great for challenging and free thinking. helped me a ton.
Our experience has been that they can't really test and determine "giftedness" until around 2nd grade. Not sure if this is right or true everywhere.

sjc0816

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2017, 10:11:30 AM »
Our school doesn't test for gifted program until 3rd grade. The gifted teacher does do some "pull out" for academically advanced kids in the younger grades. In speaking with her - it's difficult when parents of red-shirted kids are demanding pull-out when their kids technically should be in the grade above. She only has a certain amount of time during the day. Teachers also differentiate...but in the younger grades its difficult with 22-26 kids at extremely varying abilities to challenge them all.

I agree that bored 6-8 year olds is NOT a good thing.

Stachetastic

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2017, 10:29:36 AM »

Generally with special needs kids, I've read it's better to send them. They are behind already. Waiting a year isn't going to magically make them catch up-to-date it just gives them an easy year in preschool rather than challenging then in K.




I had not heard this, but it makes a lot of sense.

BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2017, 10:41:53 AM »
Our school doesn't test for gifted program until 3rd grade. The gifted teacher does do some "pull out" for academically advanced kids in the younger grades. In speaking with her - it's difficult when parents of red-shirted kids are demanding pull-out when their kids technically should be in the grade above. She only has a certain amount of time during the day. Teachers also differentiate...but in the younger grades its difficult with 22-26 kids at extremely varying abilities to challenge them all.

I agree that bored 6-8 year olds is NOT a good thing.

In my son's school so far what I've seen in 1st and 2nd grade is that they group them for nearly all of their work by ability. Which is great, because it gives more challenging work to the kids that are showing more advancement in a subject. They try very hard to not let the kids know which bucket they fall in (advanced, on target, delayed-which still seems advanced by my book) but the kids still figure it out. And this is where I go back to it being a good thing to wait and let your kid be a bit more advanced. Some kids don't care, but mine is very sensitive to where ranks in the class. If he was consistently in the delayed group he would label himself "dumb" and nothing we said or did would talk him out of it. That's not something I want to deal with.

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2017, 10:48:10 AM »
Such a personal decision. I live in an area where most parents red-shirt. It's also the land of special snowflakes. Red-shirting just goes against everything I believe. SOMEONE has to be the youngest. Why not mine?

Kindergarten is definitely more rigorous now than years ago - but ours still was NOT a "sit in your desk all day" environment. They have 2-3 recesses a day and incorporate a TON of movement. So maybe it's worth taking a visit to your elementary school to see what kind of learning environment you will be dealing with...

I have two boys - summer birthdays..June and August with a mid-September cut off. They both went "on time" (it's on time if you meet the deadline) and I can't imagine either of them in the class below them, frankly. They are in 5th and 2nd grade now and doing extremely well both academically and socially. They are doing great but we do not need them to be the biggest, best, smartest, best athlete, etc. (Although, ironically, I think being younger has made them better athletes).

There are some kids in our school that will graduate high school at 19 since parents are now red-shirting April and May birthdays. I graduated college at 21....I just can't imagine.

Anyway, good luck with the decision.
Yes, I didn't realize it until late last year.  My son started playing sports about 1.5 years ago, and his first 2 seasons had a kid on his team that we knew when they were babies, but lost touch with.

My son is small for his age (15th percentile), the other kid is pretty big for his age (almost a head taller, 95th percentile).  Other kid one month younger, so March/April birthdays.  Cutoff was December 2 for kindergarten.

I was chatting with the mom about the 4th grade "big project" (even though they are in different schools, all 4th graders do the same project) and she said "he's in 4th?  My son's in 3rd."  So.  Wow.  He's a full 1 year and 8 months older than some other kids in his class.  He started kindergarten at 6.5.

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2017, 10:49:32 AM »
This is such a great discussion. Our son will turn 5 in March and is on an IEP with social delays. At his last IEP meeting, the principal asked if we would be delaying kindergarten. WHAT? We didn't even know this was "on the table" so to speak. We were initially leaning toward no, and then his teacher spoke up and stated she feels he is ready for a 5 day/ week, full time classroom environment (which was our thinking, as well). His OT for fine motor delays will continue as long as it is needed, and we will continue working with him at home. We are anxious to see how he does at the screenings, as he does not read at all yet, and has limited letter recognition. If our community offered a full time preschool option, we would seriously consider that, but it appears kindergarten is our only option. We are open to repeating kindergarten if necessary. As it stands now, our son does not appear to care who is in his class, or if others are moving quicker academically than he is. Obviously this may change in the future.

Generally with special needs kids, I've read it's better to send them. They are behind already. Waiting a year isn't going to magically make them catch up-to-date it just gives them an easy year in preschool rather than challenging then in K.

That said, our an kiddo had a Sept birthday. Technically our district has a Sept 30 cutoff so he could have started at 4.95. we decided that was inappropriate given that 90% of summer birthdays were red shirt and 100% of other Sept kids were.

He's a great student academically despite his many challenges with social skills, self regulation, executive function, etc.  to the point that he qualifies to skip a grade in math.

Oops. Guess we should have sent him. 

You really never know with these things until it's way to late!  A gifted kid who never is challenged has bad outcomes, statistically. A kid who starts too early may always feel behind
  At age 4, who the hell knows which one you'll get?

if they are really gifted they should be tested and put in the gifted programs ... i was it was great for challenging and free thinking. helped me a ton.
Our experience has been that they can't really test and determine "giftedness" until around 2nd grade. Not sure if this is right or true everywhere.
That's when they test here.

scantee

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2017, 11:21:25 AM »
One thing to keep in mind about research studies that show benefits to red-shirting is that most of the them were done several decades ago when red-shirting was much less common. A red-shirted child two decades ago  might have been one of only a handful of kids in the class who were held back so they accrued benefits from being quite a bit older in comparison to most their classmates. Now that red-shirting is so common, the comparative benefits are no longer there because a large portion of the class has also been held back. That's not necessarily a reason to not red-shirt, but it is reason to assume that the benefits described by Gladwell and others don't apply now that it has become completely commonplace for children to be held back.

Also note that red-shirting and the increase in expectations for kindergarten go hand-in-hand. As the age of children in K has increased, so have the standards, such that now we have mostly 6-year-olds in K doing the same work as 6-year-olds were doing in grade 1 several decades ago. So in a sense, school districts have sort of adapted to red-shirting by providing grade 1 curricula during the K years, without changing much else. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 11:22:57 AM by scantee »

kanga1622

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2017, 12:37:32 PM »
I'd listen to the teacher to see why she thinks your daughter isn't ready.

We will be in the same boat in another year. Our youngest is a late June boy so we are debating on Jr. Kindy or moving him straight to Kindy. He is not advanced like his older brother and he is very small compared to other kids his age. Since we don't do pre-K, it might be a good idea to hold him back. We figure we will take him to the K screening and see what the district thinks. He's a very shy kid too so I am wondering how he will even participate during the screening.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2017, 08:18:31 PM »
Have to chime in.  We have a daughter who did 2 years of pre-school and then entered K.  The K teacher wanted to hold her back.  In all fairness, our daughter was adopted internationally, so we were dealing with everything being new and language on top of it.  Plus, she's very petite--still is.  I ended up not agreeing to hold our daughter back.  My feeling is that if we have to do two years for every grade level, she won't graduate til she's in her 20s.  There's plenty of research out there about holding kids back.  The dropout rate is higher for one, plus the child would always have been looking at "their" class noting that they should have graduated with "their" class, so I would be very careful about thinking about holding a child back, even in K.

And agree with others regarding K is the new 1st grade, etc.  We try and teach these kids to be rocket scientists at age 5.  It's somewhat disturbing. 

Psychstache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2017, 08:41:06 PM »
Have to chime in.  We have a daughter who did 2 years of pre-school and then entered K.  The K teacher wanted to hold her back.  In all fairness, our daughter was adopted internationally, so we were dealing with everything being new and language on top of it.  Plus, she's very petite--still is.  I ended up not agreeing to hold our daughter back.  My feeling is that if we have to do two years for every grade level, she won't graduate til she's in her 20s.  There's plenty of research out there about holding kids back.  The dropout rate is higher for one, plus the child would always have been looking at "their" class noting that they should have graduated with "their" class, so I would be very careful about thinking about holding a child back, even in K.

And agree with others regarding K is the new 1st grade, etc.  We try and teach these kids to be rocket scientists at age 5.  It's somewhat disturbing.

The problem with this research is that it isn't (and can't realistically) be properly controlled to determine efficacy like other educational interventions can. Students who are retained are not a random selection of students, they are students who have had difficulty with school in one shape or another, so it makes sense that those students who continue to have problems an drop out at higher rates than average.

It's kind of the reverse problem someone mentioned upthread where the benefits of 'redshirting' (a term I personally find stupid) are masked by the fact that the parents doing it are upper middle class families of means that can support and additional year of childcare and enrichment anyways.

Psychstache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2017, 08:54:48 PM »

In my state, the rigor of the Kinder curriculum is BRUTAL. In the last few years, the expectations have ramped up to a developmentally inappropriate level for 5 year olds. But what do I know, It's not like I spent all my time in grad school studying childhood developmental psychology. Better to trust our state congress to know what is best (Grr. Sorry, got off on a tangent).

. One of the biggest reasons was that current expectations do seem to be developmentally inappropriate.

I am not in early education or childhood development, so this is an honest question out of curiousity.  What are some examples of the current expectations that are "developmentally inappropriate" for 5 year olds?  Thanks.

Meant to come back and follow-up on this. Sorry about the lag.

In my state, here are some of the things that are out of line with average development in Kinder:

1 15 minute recess/movement break per day (too little)
1 40 minute PE class 2x per week (too little)
homework (useless at pretty much any grade, but super absurd for 5 YOs)
hours of independent/check-in desk work per day
inferencing/making predictions in reading (how about we focus on learning to read in the first place)
writing other than practicing the alphabet, spelling words, and your name (Kinder has students writing out grammatically correct sentences to explain their reasoning for solving a real world one-step math problem  when most kids are just trying to stay in the lines)

There are many others I am sure but I would need to dig in. All I know is that out state adopted a new curriculum 5 years ago where there was a big push to add to the HS curriculum and expectations. When they did that, they had to push things down to lower grades and so the shit ran downhill. I also know that the number of behavioral referrals we have gotten from Kindergarten have noticeably risen starting 5 years ago.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2017, 03:21:00 AM »
at the end of the day its a very small amount of money for one extra prekindergarten year if it gets them at the top of their class and lots of scholarships.

These are my thoughts, though i don't see my kid enrolling in baseball.
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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2017, 08:12:19 AM »
Leonard Sax has written some great books that cover this topic such as Boys Adrift.

Like many Gen Xers, I grew up where the school cut-off date was Jan. 1. So if you had a Sept. 1-Dec. 31 birthday, you entered kindergarten at 4 and graduated high school at 17.

For sports fan reference purposes, I was born the same week as Brett Favre in 10/69 and a month before Ken Griffey Jr. All of us graduated high school 4-5 months shy of 18. Favre and Griffey turned out just fine from a sports standpoint, something I point out to parents who redshirt for sports reasons. Favre was a 17-year-old starting college QB at Southern Miss. Griffey Jr. was starting for the Seattle Mariners at 19. Yes, they had noteworthy sports fathers, but the point is for generations we did just fine without redshirting, to say nothing of Jan.1 school cutoff dates. Both my parents, one of my sisters, and I were born in the Sept. 1-Dec. 31 window all graduated high school at 17.

Things like this don't happen anymore because of the shift to Sept. 1 school cutoff dates, let alone parents who take it a step further by redshirting.

We have friends whose twin sons were born in December, thus already a year "older" in school than they would have been a generation ago. Sports-obsessed Dad held them back a year. So they turned 19 in December of their senior year of high school. Not surprisingly, they were good at the sport that sports-obsessed Dad pushed them into. Unfortunately, Dad didn't stress academics. So kids needed a year of prep school after high school. Last month they turned 21. They are freshmen in college. They will be 24.5 when they graduate.

I'm not sure how this is progress or an argument for redshirting.
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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2017, 09:38:21 AM »
Leonard Sax has written some great books that cover this topic such as Boys Adrift.

Like many Gen Xers, I grew up where the school cut-off date was Jan. 1. So if you had a Sept. 1-Dec. 31 birthday, you entered kindergarten at 4 and graduated high school at 17.

For sports fan reference purposes, I was born the same week as Brett Favre in 10/69 and a month before Ken Griffey Jr. All of us graduated high school 4-5 months shy of 18. Favre and Griffey turned out just fine from a sports standpoint, something I point out to parents who redshirt for sports reasons. Favre was a 17-year-old starting college QB at Southern Miss. Griffey Jr. was starting for the Seattle Mariners at 19. Yes, they had noteworthy sports fathers, but the point is for generations we did just fine without redshirting, to say nothing of Jan.1 school cutoff dates. Both my parents, one of my sisters, and I were born in the Sept. 1-Dec. 31 window all graduated high school at 17.

Things like this don't happen anymore because of the shift to Sept. 1 school cutoff dates, let alone parents who take it a step further by redshirting.

We have friends whose twin sons were born in December, thus already a year "older" in school than they would have been a generation ago. Sports-obsessed Dad held them back a year. So they turned 19 in December of their senior year of high school. Not surprisingly, they were good at the sport that sports-obsessed Dad pushed them into. Unfortunately, Dad didn't stress academics. So kids needed a year of prep school after high school. Last month they turned 21. They are freshmen in college. They will be 24.5 when they graduate.

I'm not sure how this is progress or an argument for redshirting.
I don't know, what you are describing is a much more exaggerated version of redshirting. My oldest is a December birthday, he did not make the Aug 30th cutoff so he started Kinder at 5 and turned six that Dec of his Kinder year. He will turn 18 the dec of his senior year.
My youngest is a Sept birthday, we actually could start him this fall when he turns five in September but have decided to wait and do a year of pre-k. He will then turn six a few weeks after Kinder starts in 2018. This will mean that he will be 18 for nearly all of his senior year of high school (not 19 like your suggesting).
Most parents I know who are thinking of "red-shirting" have children in the May-Sept time frame where they would have a child that if started "on time", their child won't turn six until late into their Kinder year. And subsequently, if started wouldn't turn 18 until late into their senior year of fall of their freshman year of college.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2017, 09:58:50 AM »
Leonard Sax has written some great books that cover this topic such as Boys Adrift.

Like many Gen Xers, I grew up where the school cut-off date was Jan. 1. So if you had a Sept. 1-Dec. 31 birthday, you entered kindergarten at 4 and graduated high school at 17.

For sports fan reference purposes, I was born the same week as Brett Favre in 10/69 and a month before Ken Griffey Jr. All of us graduated high school 4-5 months shy of 18. Favre and Griffey turned out just fine from a sports standpoint, something I point out to parents who redshirt for sports reasons. Favre was a 17-year-old starting college QB at Southern Miss. Griffey Jr. was starting for the Seattle Mariners at 19. Yes, they had noteworthy sports fathers, but the point is for generations we did just fine without redshirting, to say nothing of Jan.1 school cutoff dates. Both my parents, one of my sisters, and I were born in the Sept. 1-Dec. 31 window all graduated high school at 17.

Things like this don't happen anymore because of the shift to Sept. 1 school cutoff dates, let alone parents who take it a step further by redshirting.

We have friends whose twin sons were born in December, thus already a year "older" in school than they would have been a generation ago. Sports-obsessed Dad held them back a year. So they turned 19 in December of their senior year of high school. Not surprisingly, they were good at the sport that sports-obsessed Dad pushed them into. Unfortunately, Dad didn't stress academics. So kids needed a year of prep school after high school. Last month they turned 21. They are freshmen in college. They will be 24.5 when they graduate.

I'm not sure how this is progress or an argument for redshirting.

on the sports note the pre highschool rec leagues are age based cut offs and were at the time those 2 went thru.  its not surprising based on those birthdates that farve and griffy did well b/c they were always older than the other kids their age in the beginning rec leagues which is what most of the research is based on which lead them to look better than the others ...

there has been lots of research done on this by gladwell from the sports side and i dont think that what you're saying negates the value of the research if anything it proves it

football - fall - october bday is likely after the september/august cut off so he was older
Griffey being born in the fall was still towards the upper age group in early rec leagues.

and as you said your 2 examples both have sports fathers.

But even then just pointing out to random outliers doesnt justify the entire premise that red shirting isnt helpful.
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sjc0816

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2017, 10:00:41 AM »
Leonard Sax has written some great books that cover this topic such as Boys Adrift.

Like many Gen Xers, I grew up where the school cut-off date was Jan. 1. So if you had a Sept. 1-Dec. 31 birthday, you entered kindergarten at 4 and graduated high school at 17.

For sports fan reference purposes, I was born the same week as Brett Favre in 10/69 and a month before Ken Griffey Jr. All of us graduated high school 4-5 months shy of 18. Favre and Griffey turned out just fine from a sports standpoint, something I point out to parents who redshirt for sports reasons. Favre was a 17-year-old starting college QB at Southern Miss. Griffey Jr. was starting for the Seattle Mariners at 19. Yes, they had noteworthy sports fathers, but the point is for generations we did just fine without redshirting, to say nothing of Jan.1 school cutoff dates. Both my parents, one of my sisters, and I were born in the Sept. 1-Dec. 31 window all graduated high school at 17.

Things like this don't happen anymore because of the shift to Sept. 1 school cutoff dates, let alone parents who take it a step further by redshirting.

We have friends whose twin sons were born in December, thus already a year "older" in school than they would have been a generation ago. Sports-obsessed Dad held them back a year. So they turned 19 in December of their senior year of high school. Not surprisingly, they were good at the sport that sports-obsessed Dad pushed them into. Unfortunately, Dad didn't stress academics. So kids needed a year of prep school after high school. Last month they turned 21. They are freshmen in college. They will be 24.5 when they graduate.

I'm not sure how this is progress or an argument for redshirting.
I don't know, what you are describing is a much more exaggerated version of redshirting. My oldest is a December birthday, he did not make the Aug 30th cutoff so he started Kinder at 5 and turned six that Dec of his Kinder year. He will turn 18 the dec of his senior year.
My youngest is a Sept birthday, we actually could start him this fall when he turns five in September but have decided to wait and do a year of pre-k. He will then turn six a few weeks after Kinder starts in 2018. This will mean that he will be 18 for nearly all of his senior year of high school (not 19 like your suggesting).
Most parents I know who are thinking of "red-shirting" have children in the May-Sept time frame where they would have a child that if started "on time", their child won't turn six until late into their Kinder year. And subsequently, if started wouldn't turn 18 until late into their senior year of fall of their freshman year of college.

The problem is, in reality...redshirting birthdays are getting earlier and earlier. Used to be only summer birthday....but then MAY kids are the youngest. So May birthdays start redshirting. Then APRIL birthdays are the youngest - and April birthdays start redshirting. Summer redshirted kids aren't even considered "old" for their class anymore.

I think it's sad....that parents have so little faith in kids these days that they think they need some sort of manufactured advantage. It's not a good message to send...and I hate the trend, if you can't already tell.


boarder42

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2017, 10:07:49 AM »
Leonard Sax has written some great books that cover this topic such as Boys Adrift.

Like many Gen Xers, I grew up where the school cut-off date was Jan. 1. So if you had a Sept. 1-Dec. 31 birthday, you entered kindergarten at 4 and graduated high school at 17.

For sports fan reference purposes, I was born the same week as Brett Favre in 10/69 and a month before Ken Griffey Jr. All of us graduated high school 4-5 months shy of 18. Favre and Griffey turned out just fine from a sports standpoint, something I point out to parents who redshirt for sports reasons. Favre was a 17-year-old starting college QB at Southern Miss. Griffey Jr. was starting for the Seattle Mariners at 19. Yes, they had noteworthy sports fathers, but the point is for generations we did just fine without redshirting, to say nothing of Jan.1 school cutoff dates. Both my parents, one of my sisters, and I were born in the Sept. 1-Dec. 31 window all graduated high school at 17.

Things like this don't happen anymore because of the shift to Sept. 1 school cutoff dates, let alone parents who take it a step further by redshirting.

We have friends whose twin sons were born in December, thus already a year "older" in school than they would have been a generation ago. Sports-obsessed Dad held them back a year. So they turned 19 in December of their senior year of high school. Not surprisingly, they were good at the sport that sports-obsessed Dad pushed them into. Unfortunately, Dad didn't stress academics. So kids needed a year of prep school after high school. Last month they turned 21. They are freshmen in college. They will be 24.5 when they graduate.

I'm not sure how this is progress or an argument for redshirting.
I don't know, what you are describing is a much more exaggerated version of redshirting. My oldest is a December birthday, he did not make the Aug 30th cutoff so he started Kinder at 5 and turned six that Dec of his Kinder year. He will turn 18 the dec of his senior year.
My youngest is a Sept birthday, we actually could start him this fall when he turns five in September but have decided to wait and do a year of pre-k. He will then turn six a few weeks after Kinder starts in 2018. This will mean that he will be 18 for nearly all of his senior year of high school (not 19 like your suggesting).
Most parents I know who are thinking of "red-shirting" have children in the May-Sept time frame where they would have a child that if started "on time", their child won't turn six until late into their Kinder year. And subsequently, if started wouldn't turn 18 until late into their senior year of fall of their freshman year of college.

The problem is, in reality...redshirting birthdays are getting earlier and earlier. Used to be only summer birthday....but then MAY kids are the youngest. So May birthdays start redshirting. Then APRIL birthdays are the youngest - and April birthdays start redshirting. Summer redshirted kids aren't even considered "old" for their class anymore.

I think it's sad....that parents have so little faith in kids these days that they think they need some sort of manufactured advantage. It's not a good message to send...and I hate the trend, if you can't already tell.

well the fact is its there and as some have stated schools are adjusting to it and kindergarten is fastly becoming first grade as when i was a child. 
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nobody123

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2017, 10:16:53 AM »
My third grade son's preschool teacher suggested we hold him back for non-academic reasons.  He was reading already, could listen and follow rules, played nice with others, etc.  But he has a mid-June birthday and she pointed out that he will be smaller when he tries out for the football team, and he will be the last of his classmates to get his driver's license.  My wife almost bought into it, but I thought it was completely absurd to wait on kindergarten if he was academically and emotionally ready.  No regrets sending him on time.

My younger one has a late May birthday and is less academically advanced than his brother was.  However, he is physically almost as big as his older brother (who is slightly above average height for his age).  It will be interesting to see what the preschool teacher recommends.  I'm going to keep an open mind because I see how much more difficult the K - 3 curriculum is now compared to my elementary school days.

As an aside, I think the competitive athletics angle is BS.  Either your kids have talent or they don't.  There are freshman starters on the varsity football team, and some seniors that were never more than third string, and others that would rather be in the marching band.  Making a decision about their academics based on guessing whether they will want to play high school sports in 9 years seems ridiculous to me.  If they love sports and aren't good enough to make a varsity school team, there are rec leagues they can join.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2017, 10:44:17 AM »
As an aside, I think the competitive athletics angle is BS.  Either your kids have talent or they don't.  There are freshman starters on the varsity football team, and some seniors that were never more than third string, and others that would rather be in the marching band.  Making a decision about their academics based on guessing whether they will want to play high school sports in 9 years seems ridiculous to me.  If they love sports and aren't good enough to make a varsity school team, there are rec leagues they can join.

Agreed.  How can anyone seriously considered holding an otherwise ready child back for this reason?  If you are, you are way too invested in your own version of who your child will become. 

StarBright

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2017, 10:54:09 AM »
As an aside, I think the competitive athletics angle is BS.  Either your kids have talent or they don't.  There are freshman starters on the varsity football team, and some seniors that were never more than third string, and others that would rather be in the marching band.  Making a decision about their academics based on guessing whether they will want to play high school sports in 9 years seems ridiculous to me.  If they love sports and aren't good enough to make a varsity school team, there are rec leagues they can join.

Agreed.  How can anyone seriously considered holding an otherwise ready child back for this reason?  If you are, you are way too invested in your own version of who your child will become.

I knew a kid whose parents actually held him back in between 8th grade and freshman year to give him some advantage in basketball. It was awful because he was in GT and a straight A student and we'd all been in the same class together since second grade. Dude had to repeat 8th grade because his family thought he'd have a growth spurt or something. Turns out he's just a smaller guy, he's still 5'6".

People are weird about sports.

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2017, 11:59:12 AM »
Quote
Also note that red-shirting and the increase in expectations for kindergarten go hand-in-hand. As the age of children in K has increased, so have the standards, such that now we have mostly 6-year-olds in K doing the same work as 6-year-olds were doing in grade 1 several decades ago. So in a sense, school districts have sort of adapted to red-shirting by providing grade 1 curricula during the K years, without changing much else.
Really?  Someone else noted this too but I thought it was the other way around.

In the last several years, I've noticed that the standards for kindergarten have gone up.  At least locally, red-shirting has been a response to this.

Schools are failing -> push is for preschool -> push is for getting kids reading even earlier to make up for falling test scores (in other words, get schools to "fix" things that are broken at home) -> standards are higher -> change the birthdate to enter k from December to Sept -> introduce TK for the parents who now have to pay for more preschool -> parents start red-shirting so their kids keep their advantage.

meandmyfamily

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2017, 12:02:57 PM »
I was born Sept. 19 and started Kindergarten at 4.5 in the 80s.  It was never a problem.

My first born was October and started at 5.5 and it was good for her.  My second born, a boy, was August 26th and I figured we would hold him back when he was born but by 4 we knew he was ready.  Even the teachers agreed and I asked their opinion.  He is 11 and I am glad we started him at 4.5. It was full day but he was ready at 4.5.  Our oldest had half day Kinder at 5.5 and it was perfect for her. Our third is end of July and we now home school so we started her at just turned 5.  If she was going to school away from home we may have held her back due to emotional maturity.  Even end of July makes these decisions very hard.  Our fourth is born in March-yeah!  haha

Good luck!  I think it is up to the individual child.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 12:04:31 PM by meandmyfamily »

ysette9

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2017, 04:43:03 PM »
Reading all of this makes me slightly sick to my stomach when I think about what it will mean for my kid who is currently only 2.5. My husband and I have no first-hand knowledge of how preschool/K/1st grade works in this country so it is fascinating and kind of horrifying to hear all of this competition and academics being pushed on tiny little people. I really want to shelter her from that as much as possible, but I fear it might be hard since we don't know the lay of the land. I suppose we'll just have to be very attentive when we get to the stage and make decisions as we go. My hope is that we will be FIRE by the time she reaches 1st grade or so and will be able to be much more involved.
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Milizard

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2017, 05:05:59 PM »
I have a 6 yo and a 4 yo, so I have recent experience with kindergarten.  I would go ahead and sign her up.  Sounds to me like she'd be fine, and it's only 1/2 day.  Kindergarten in my state is a full day, but there were usually 3 recesses and a rest time built into the day.  There is also a kindergarten roundup where you can meetand talk to the teachers.  If there's something like that available to you, that would be a great place to find out the very specific expectations of kindergarteners in your particular school.  That would give you a much better idea whether or not it would benefit your daughter to wait another year.  (Better than random internet people scattered in different school districts across the continent.)

emilypsf

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2017, 11:32:59 PM »
Our June birthday son is in kinder now.  We sent him on time and are glad we did.  He didn't even know the alphabet when he started and can read several sight words and sound out many more now.  He loves it and is thriving.  He would have been so bored in preschool for another year.  He does not spend a ton of time sitting at a desk, and the class seems very developmentally appropriate for him.   He gets two recesses per day, 2 PE classes, one dance class, and one garden class (in the outdoor classroom) per week.  Much of the in class time is spent on the rug, moving to stations, learning letters and sounds with movement, and doing activities designed to get their energy out.  Most afternoons are free play in the classroom.  We were told by a private school to have him wait a year, but his preschool director said he was ready, so we sent him to public.   Red shirting here must not be as common as elsewhere.  There are several kids younger than he is in his class and nobody a full year older.  There are a few July and August red shirts but also July and August on time kids.  So, I guess the moral is, know your kid and the school she'll go to.  The sports thing is not such a big deal to me.  We plan to teach our kids that sports are for exercise, enjoyment, and stress relief, not something to plan your life around.  Honestly, I'd prefer not spending all of our weekends at baseball tournaments.

engineerjourney

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2017, 07:13:49 AM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....

boarder42

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #83 on: January 20, 2017, 07:25:37 AM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....

wouldnt that set a bad example for a child though?  giving them the option to do assigned work or not.  they may apply this to future assignments in future grades. 
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jezebel

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #84 on: January 20, 2017, 08:11:07 AM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....

In kindergarten last year, my child had homework - nothing extensive or time consuming.  We completely agree that homework at that age is ridiculous and pretty terrible, but we did not offer it to her as an option.  We had her do it as a matter of course after school, but there were days that it wasn't all finished and we didn't sweat it or even discuss it.  I think that as counterproductive as homework may be, presenting it as optional from the start is probably worse in the long run.  The teacher decides (theoretically) how to run the classroom and assign work, so I wouldn't tell my child that she can decide to follow some of the teacher's directions, but not others. 

Simplefunlife

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #85 on: January 20, 2017, 08:20:09 AM »
I have recent experience with this and the after effects a few years later.  My son's birthday is in June, well within the August cutoff for starting school.  I was paying almost 10K a year in daycare so you better believe he was going to start school on time.  If money were no object I would have considered red shirting him not because of academic reasons but maturity and focus.  Our elementary school is top rated and has very high expectations. A big part of success in kindergarten seems to be getting with the program of listening, following directions, sitting still, waiting your turn, doing some work independently and appropriate behavior.  Reading and math were the least of our concerns.  My son struggled behavior wise and was just slightly behind in reading.  He was actually reading full sentences, not just the level the school wanted him to be at by the end of the year.  When the conversation came up at the end of the year I was thinking they might suggest holding him back based on the feedback of his struggles during the year. Both the teacher and Vice Principle were against it and I went along with their recommendation of moving him to first grade.  First grade was a tough year but the school said he was moving onto second.  Second grade was a tough year but again the school said he should still move on.  This time I put my foot down and requested he be held back.  In order for this to happen I had to have a board of seven(!) administrators hear my case and evidence for holding him back.  They eventually agreed and we are currently in second grade v2.  This year has been so much better!!! My son is very advanced in math but has the ability to help peers.  His reading is on track and he feels good because he is not behind or the slowest.  His size also played a part in my decision.  He is barely 2nd percentile on growth chart so he was always MUCH smaller every person in his class.  Now he is still the smallest boy but at least has two peers that are closer in size.  I think the biggest thing is his confidence, attitude, behavior seem to be in line with his peers now.  He just fits in better this year.  Looking back I still would have put him in kindergarten but advocated strongly for holding him back that year.  My gut told me that was right thing but got talked into moving him along. 

Whatever you decide there are studies for and against it.  I'd recommend gathering some information and just going with your gut.  You know your child better than anyone else. 

BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #86 on: January 20, 2017, 08:32:03 AM »
I have recent experience with this and the after effects a few years later.  My son's birthday is in June, well within the August cutoff for starting school.  I was paying almost 10K a year in daycare so you better believe he was going to start school on time.  If money were no object I would have considered red shirting him not because of academic reasons but maturity and focus.  Our elementary school is top rated and has very high expectations. A big part of success in kindergarten seems to be getting with the program of listening, following directions, sitting still, waiting your turn, doing some work independently and appropriate behavior.  Reading and math were the least of our concerns.  My son struggled behavior wise and was just slightly behind in reading.  He was actually reading full sentences, not just the level the school wanted him to be at by the end of the year.  When the conversation came up at the end of the year I was thinking they might suggest holding him back based on the feedback of his struggles during the year. Both the teacher and Vice Principle were against it and I went along with their recommendation of moving him to first grade.  First grade was a tough year but the school said he was moving onto second.  Second grade was a tough year but again the school said he should still move on.  This time I put my foot down and requested he be held back.  In order for this to happen I had to have a board of seven(!) administrators hear my case and evidence for holding him back.  They eventually agreed and we are currently in second grade v2.  This year has been so much better!!! My son is very advanced in math but has the ability to help peers.  His reading is on track and he feels good because he is not behind or the slowest.  His size also played a part in my decision.  He is barely 2nd percentile on growth chart so he was always MUCH smaller every person in his class.  Now he is still the smallest boy but at least has two peers that are closer in size.  I think the biggest thing is his confidence, attitude, behavior seem to be in line with his peers now.  He just fits in better this year. Looking back I still would have put him in kindergarten but advocated strongly for holding him back that year.  My gut told me that was right thing but got talked into moving him along. 

Whatever you decide there are studies for and against it.  I'd recommend gathering some information and just going with your gut.  You know your child better than anyone else.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. You story highlights exactly what I have been thinking and worried about for my Sept birthday guy. That part I bolded is critical and I'm not willing to take the risk to save even the ridiculous $14k daycare costs.

boarder42

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #87 on: January 20, 2017, 08:33:42 AM »
well i guess this likely wont apply to our first child.  aug. 1 is the cut off in our district and our child will likely be early sept late august if all goes well.
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boarder42

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #88 on: January 20, 2017, 08:37:59 AM »
I have recent experience with this and the after effects a few years later.  My son's birthday is in June, well within the August cutoff for starting school.  I was paying almost 10K a year in daycare so you better believe he was going to start school on time.  If money were no object I would have considered red shirting him not because of academic reasons but maturity and focus.  Our elementary school is top rated and has very high expectations. A big part of success in kindergarten seems to be getting with the program of listening, following directions, sitting still, waiting your turn, doing some work independently and appropriate behavior.  Reading and math were the least of our concerns.  My son struggled behavior wise and was just slightly behind in reading.  He was actually reading full sentences, not just the level the school wanted him to be at by the end of the year.  When the conversation came up at the end of the year I was thinking they might suggest holding him back based on the feedback of his struggles during the year. Both the teacher and Vice Principle were against it and I went along with their recommendation of moving him to first grade.  First grade was a tough year but the school said he was moving onto second.  Second grade was a tough year but again the school said he should still move on.  This time I put my foot down and requested he be held back.  In order for this to happen I had to have a board of seven(!) administrators hear my case and evidence for holding him back.  They eventually agreed and we are currently in second grade v2.  This year has been so much better!!! My son is very advanced in math but has the ability to help peers.  His reading is on track and he feels good because he is not behind or the slowest.  His size also played a part in my decision.  He is barely 2nd percentile on growth chart so he was always MUCH smaller every person in his class.  Now he is still the smallest boy but at least has two peers that are closer in size.  I think the biggest thing is his confidence, attitude, behavior seem to be in line with his peers now.  He just fits in better this year. Looking back I still would have put him in kindergarten but advocated strongly for holding him back that year.  My gut told me that was right thing but got talked into moving him along. 

Whatever you decide there are studies for and against it.  I'd recommend gathering some information and just going with your gut.  You know your child better than anyone else.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. You story highlights exactly what I have been thinking and worried about for my Sept birthday guy. That part I bolded is critical and I'm not willing to take the risk to save even the ridiculous $14k daycare costs.

a agree.  i still remember the kids that were held back.  he's going to be around those kids in HS and kids can be mean.
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emilypsf

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2017, 08:42:31 AM »
My son does not have homework but has had two creative projects to complete at home, both of which he's been excited about.  Fwiw, we are in a large, urban district where some schools are underperforming and some are comperable to the best suburban districts in the State.  We were lucky to get one of the best.

Simplefunlife

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2017, 08:45:46 AM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....

YES!  Homework in Kindergarten was 20 minutes of reading a night at the start of the year and half of a math worksheet Mon- Thurs.  At mid year it was bumped to 30 minutes of child reading a night (not parent reading). When the teacher felt like my son was "behind" in reading fluency there were extra practice worksheets sent home for homework.  After my son and I both start hating school I talked with the teacher and she agreed to much less homework for my son. Most nights I read to him anywhere between 5-30 minutes, but sometimes we alternated both reading.  We kept math worksheets to approximately 10 minutes.

kanga1622

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2017, 11:11:41 AM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....

Yes. Our Kinder kid got homework last year. Often times it was an art project where we had a week to return it. He did get worksheets on a regular basis in school though that he HATED. Mostly pages where he had to practice writing a letter. He just didn't care to write a J 40 times.

Our Kinder classroom sent one front/back page of homework each week (sent home on Monday, return on Friday). Essentially you were supposed to do a half page of information each evening. I remember a lot of "color all the triangles blue" and coloring dots to show a basic math equation. We had him complete the homework but often had him just do the entire week at once. By Christmas he could finish the entire thing in about 10 minutes.

Milizard

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2017, 11:42:54 AM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....

Last year in kindergarten, my son had 5 minute homework assignments to do Mon-Thur nights.  They were all on a single sheet with the option to do all at once for some candy from the teacher.  My son loved getting his homework done all at once, and it usually only took 10 minutes for the week's work.  I think it was more to get used to doing some homework every night than anything else.  It was a pain, but if he was eligible to get the candy, he was all for doing it.  It was a struggle the times he couldn't get the Smartypants award smarties because he missed school or something. 

This year, in 1st grade, my son gets some sheets of HW every Friday, but they are not required to be turned in.  We skipped doing them the first half of the year, but he's doing them now.  His current teacher seems more laissez-faire about the whole thing.

sjc0816

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2017, 01:07:20 PM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....

No homework in Kindergarten for us...and our elementary school as a whole is moving away from homework. This year, my 2nd grader has ZERO homework and my 5th grader has a maximum of 20 minutes a night...and many nights it is none at all.

engineerjourney

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2017, 02:02:00 PM »
wow, seems like its all over the place.  When the time gets closer I will have to make sure I know what to expect from the kinder options around here.  I can see the concern over not enforcing assigned work from a teacher but I also hope to raise children that will not be sheep and won't sit by while wrong things are happening.  I doubt kinder homework would be part of that lesson but depending on the circumstances I would definitely fight by my kid to change the rules, not just follow them, if I thought/knew they were a detriment to my child and others.  But that's me thinking of "what if", we will see what I will actually do in the situation in a couple years!  Red-shirting probably won't be a thing for me to worry about.  My first has a June birthday with Jan 1 cutoff.  And my first is a girl in the 99th percentile for height right now so only legitimate academic/emotional concerns would make me question her going to kinder on time. 

StarBright

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2017, 02:42:27 PM »
well i guess this likely wont apply to our first child.  aug. 1 is the cut off in our district and our child will likely be early sept late august if all goes well.

This is basically the boat we were in with our son too. But if your district is like ours they basically let parents choose if the child passes evaluations and turn 5 within a few weeks of the cut off. Our son couldn't read but knew and could write all his letters, numbers, etc and his pre-k teachers were urging us to start him.

Our kid was academically fine but is a super active child and tends to get overly emotional if made to sit still too long. Knowing that pre-k in our district is super academic with not a lot of movement time basically made the decision for us. I agree with those who say it is a child by child decision.

And in 5.5 years educational trends could change again and you might not even have to worry about it at all:) Congrats BTW.

COEE

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2017, 08:22:36 PM »
Wow - This thread has blown up!  Let me offer up some advice from both sides of the coin - both from personal experience and what I've done with my daughter.  I will admit that I haven't read the entire thread.

My birthday is August 30th.  I was put into school when I was 4, turning 5.  My teachers told my parents that I was ready.  And I was intellectually ready and did fine until I hit middle school.  Holy cow was it rough.  I was a year behind everyone.  The kids that got held back a grade were two years older than me, and there was more than a few.  I was the last one to do everything.  But the worst of all was that I was the LAST kid to hit puberty.  I was picked on even by the dorks.  It was brutally miserable.  I had a hard time making friends, keeping friends, and fitting in.  I look back on those years as some of the worst in my life.  I also acted out a lot at home.  I know this is many peoples experience in middle school, but I truly feel that my experience was worse than most.

Fast forward a few years, my daughter was born August 29th (she just HAD to have her own birthday).  This year she entered kindergarten when she was 5, turning 6.  I was adamant that she not go to school earlier even though her pre-school was pretty insistent - I refused.  My daughter is very smart, well ahead of many of her peers intellectually, but she lacked social skills, especially as an only child.  Those social skills are so incredibly important.  In that 'hold-back' year she learned enough of those social skills to really excel.  She leads the pack.  She has confidence.  She is bold, friendly, and genuinely happy.  To date, it has been the second best decision I have made with respect to my daughter.  Time will tell how puberty and the middle school years will treat her, but I'm guessing, they will be much better than mine ever were.

MayDay

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2017, 06:21:52 AM »
Kinder homework- they'd send home two books at reading level, to read at home. They'd sometimes send home worksheets but the teacher said they were optional- some parents clearly asked for them. We tossed them.

Holding back has a lot of documented research that it is ineffective EXCEPT for repeating K. After K the social consequence is high, and if being in the grade once didn't teach you, doing it the same a second time is not likely too. The student needs different intervention than repeating what doesn't work.

People go on and on about how they just pass kids these days and In My Day you would've just failed! But actual data is behind these changes. Kids are more successful if they proceed to the next grade but get extra help.



Journal:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/mayday's-journal/350/  featuring children, chickens (new!) and other ch words.

nottoolatetostart

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2017, 10:27:23 AM »
Hi all- thanks for your experiences and thoughts.

I called the elementary school and she said I should go ahead and enroll her anyway. Throughout the next months, there will be evaulations, parents' overview and I can always speak to a school counselor or psychologist. I think all of this, plus knowing where my daughter is at in August, not simply evaulation in November. School said we can have her drop out at anytime, no problem.

Also, we will just have her do 1/2 day program to keep option 'low' at $2k if we hold her back. I am 25/75 (25% sending her, 75% sure we will hold her back) at this point and glad to just have our options open so we can make decision in August and not today.

I totally agree with everyone on how this redshirting business exacerbates the issue. Yes we are upper middle class (in terms of net worth yet do not keep up with Jonese) and I am a SAHM (we are almost FI in about 2 years).

This process has made us think about what we want for our kids. I don't want them to be the best in things, just find something they love. We want her to be creative, self sufficient, minimalist, passionate. I don't care about sports. I really want her to be happy and confident. I am sure I am forgetting stuff but if those are our general goals, it makes most sense to set her align with her peers (which is the norm here, in my district and not send her 'early'). Besides, gives her an extra year to work for college savings, right??? LOL

Thank you everyone.

BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2017, 12:10:01 PM »
Nottolate, it sounds like you all are talking to the right people in your district, and really thinking about your options and making the best decision you can. That's really all we can do as parents. Good luck!