Author Topic: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?  (Read 8417 times)

Neustache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2017, 03:36:51 PM »
Sounds like a good plan!

I will say this....for a very selfish reason I'm kicking myself for not waiting a year.  She's going to graduate at 17, which when she was 5 I thought would be super cool.  Now that she's almost 9 and our time with her is half over, I wish I could have another year with her in high school until she's 18.  Kind of silly, but my heart is already hurting that she could go off to school a year earlier than she otherwise would have if I had held her back. 

Mr. Green

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2017, 02:23:31 PM »
I was one of the youngest kids in my grade. Hell I was still 17 on the first day of college. School was always easy for me. I can't even imagine how frustrating it would have been if my parents had delayed me a year. Could very well have been the difference between excelling easily, and being so turned off by how uninteresting everything was that I didn't care and didn't excel. I've seen that happen to smart kids.

LiveLean

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2017, 07:21:35 PM »
Sigh.

I just don't get the redshirting arguments on any level.

There was a small Indian kid in my grade in high school. He actually skipped a grade. He was rail thin and socially awkward and graduated at 16. He then lived next to me in our dorm freshman year of college.

He has multiple physics degrees. He hit it big during the first tech boom in San Francisco and then became one of Google's first employees. He's still there. I'm guessing he's worth nine figures. Seems to be enjoying life.

I'm guessing his parents don't have any regrets.
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backandforth

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2017, 09:03:05 AM »
Both me and my spouse started and finished school early (by 1 or 2 years vs. starndard) and we are very grateful for that as grownups. If you have an average or above average child (I guess everybody think their child is above average LOL), then she/he will likely do just fine starting earlier. Confidence is built in many ways, the fact that I was the youngest in class all those year and did well really helped me in the confidence department. Sports are very important, but being fast and strong is only part of the equation, our big brains are what set us apart from the apes, and the older you are, the 1-2 year age gap become less of an issue.

nobody123

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2017, 10:26:16 AM »
Homework: Our school district does the daily agenda book thing, and we have to initial our child's book to show that we saw what they did.  In kindergarten, they got like one worksheet a week to do related to learning how to read / write.  There was also a reading log to fill out and you had to vouch that your kid was reading with / to you at home.  Sadly, the teacher said it's necessary otherwise some parents wouldn't help the kids learn to read at all.  She said you'd be surprised by how many parents skip conference day, too.

In 1st and 2nd grade, we got a homework packet on a Monday that was due the following monday with 5 or 6 things to do.  I liked that because you could work around your schedule (baseball practice, Cub Scouts, etc.).  Some of it was mandatory work online that required them to log into an educational website that would track their progress, and those were more game like than anything.

Third grade, he gets an assignment almost every night.  We're told that it should take no more than 20 minutes, and if they don't finish it in that timeframe, just write a note to say so -- it's not intended to be torture.  We've made our son sit there for longer to finish it if he's not focusing on the work, and partially to learn that you don't just get to slack off on assignments because you don't feel like doing them.

Redshirt:  I have an August birthday and my sister has a September birthday, and IIRC the district had an October 1 cutoff at the time.  We were obviously among the youngest few in our respective classes and both did fine academically and socially going to K on time.  The only time I ran into a headache because of my age was when I was entering college, and I had to wait until the day I turned 18 and took a day off of work to sign up for Selective Service at the post office and fax proof to my university, which was legally required before they could process my financial aid for the semester that started a week later.  Someone is always going to be the oldest / youngest / tallest / shortest, and you have no way of knowing how it will all work out 13 years from now, so I don't see any reason to delay enrollment for a child that is deemed ready by the professionals.

Jules13

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2017, 10:28:31 AM »
I agree with Secret Agent Mom.  Kindergarten is no longer kindergarten.  It's 1st grade at the least.  Both of my boys (August and September birthdays) started late.  They could have been the youngest, but I chose to start them at age 6 (or about to turn 6 for the one with a Sept birthday). 

Best decision ever.  My oldest could already read chapter books when he started kindergarten, and people thought I was crazy for not starting him a year earlier.  He was not ready.  He needed another year to be a kid and play.  My youngest was pretty much the same, but was even a little less mature when he started kindergarten.  Recess is only 20 minutes at their elementary school and that is pretty standard.  PE is not every day, it's rotated with Music and Art.  They are required to sit still for FAR too long in both kindergarden and the subsequent grades.  My youngest (2nd grader) still struggles and he's almost a full year older than many of his peers. 

And even though my older son did struggle a bit with boredom at school, he is far more mature than a lot of his peers, which I'm thankful for and his teachers simply allowed him to read more.  He didn't get caught up in all the stupid stuff that his younger classmates were doing.  I think that is really important now that he is in middle school.  There is a lot more crap that a kid has to deal with in the middle and high school years that having that extra year in age can be really beneficial.

I was actually talking to my youngest's 2nd grade teacher about her own daughter, who will be in kindergarten next year.  She will be 6 in July.  We were talking about how we wish more parents would wait.  We see (I volunteer a lot) SO many kids who are not ready for the pressures (not just in kindergarten, but all through elementary school) and 'rigor' (I hate that word, but it's true) because they start so young.  My kids had homework in kindergarten for goodness sake!  I know not all schools do that, but ours does.  You would think being there for 7 hours is enough, but no, we have homework too!!

I am not saying this is the case for every kid.  But it is for many.  You can always seek extra work/projects/etc if your child is bored.  But, it's a lot harder for a kid who is that young to sit still and listen and do work for 7 hours.  That is a LONG time for anybody. 

Good luck with your decision.  I know it's a hard one for many!

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2017, 10:33:10 AM »
Question for those with kids currently in kinder or were there just recently... did they get assigned homework?  If they did, did you make them do it?  I feel like I would let my kid decide to do it or not at that age.. I can't believe homework at kindergarten is "normal", that's so terrible in my mind.  And I was one of those kids that never missed a homework assignment... this seems nuts to me.  I remember there being no grades in kinder, has that changed too?  I would totally let my kid not do homework at that age even if it was assigned unless it would directly led to them being flunked or held back.  But if that was the case I don't think I would have my kid go there....
Our school gives monthly homework for kindergarten.

On the order of 5-10 pages a month.

Jules13

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2017, 10:40:03 AM »
Also, I wanted to comment that nobody I know who has started their kids at age 6 are doing it to gain any sort of 'advantage'.  I am sure there are people who do that, but I don't think it's the norm at all. 

I think most do it because most of what they do in elementary schools (not just kindergarten) is so developmentally inappropriate these days, mostly as a result of the over testing.  I recall testing kindergartners over sight words out in the hallway and now 3rd graders are expected to know how to type standardized test essays.  It's just all so ridiculous.



Neustache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2017, 10:44:54 AM »
Our kindergarten has homework - 5 pages for the week.  It's fine, unless your kids has fine motor issues and anxiety.  Then it's AWFUL.  My son would be fine with that much homework now, and he just turned 5 this month.  But my daughter....no.  It was rough.

GuitarStv

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2017, 10:50:25 AM »
My son was born Dec. 14.  Dec 31 is the cutoff for school, and he's supposed to head into Jr. Kindergarten this September at three years and nine months old.  He's not a stupid child and but was several months late for most of his milestones (crawling, walking, talking).  He does seem to get concepts after explanation reasonably well.  He's also physically smaller than most other kids his age.

My wife and I are unsure if holding him back for a year makes sense or not . . . we tend to think that it would make sense in his case.  If we don't he'll be almost a year behind all the other kids in his class developmentally, and my wife and I are both concerned that this will disadvantage him.  Early education problems can snowball into much bigger issues socially and confidence-wise.

nobody123

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2017, 10:59:49 AM »
I think most do it because most of what they do in elementary schools (not just kindergarten) is so developmentally inappropriate these days, mostly as a result of the over testing.  I recall testing kindergartners over sight words out in the hallway and now 3rd graders are expected to know how to type standardized test essays.  It's just all so ridiculous.

I am not a professional educator, but I agree 100%.  My third grader is learning the formal definitions to things (like commutative property, associative property) that I didn't learn until junior high when I had to do "proofs" of them in geometry class, then is expected to answer multiple part word problems that contain those phrases.  At least once a week I have to google the answer to a math problem on his homework.  And answering a "math" problem now involves writing a paragraph about your thought process and explaining how to solve it multiple ways, then drawing a picture / graph to explain what you just wrote, and only then may you just do the actual math problem itself, which is just absurd.  Even the teacher admits it's overkill for their age, but she's forced to teach to the standardized tests.  The irony of it all is that they get to use the calculator on their school-issued Chromebooks once they start 5th grade. 

jezebel

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2017, 11:03:18 AM »
I think most do it because most of what they do in elementary schools (not just kindergarten) is so developmentally inappropriate these days, mostly as a result of the over testing.  I recall testing kindergartners over sight words out in the hallway and now 3rd graders are expected to know how to type standardized test essays.  It's just all so ridiculous.

I am not a professional educator, but I agree 100%.  My third grader is learning the formal definitions to things (like commutative property, associative property) that I didn't learn until junior high when I had to do "proofs" of them in geometry class, then is expected to answer multiple part word problems that contain those phrases.  At least once a week I have to google the answer to a math problem on his homework.  And answering a "math" problem now involves writing a paragraph about your thought process and explaining how to solve it multiple ways, then drawing a picture / graph to explain what you just wrote, and only then may you just do the actual math problem itself, which is just absurd.  Even the teacher admits it's overkill for their age, but she's forced to teach to the standardized tests.  The irony of it all is that they get to use the calculator on their school-issued Chromebooks once they start 5th grade.

It's not ironic that they get to use a calculator after demonstrating how they understand the thought process behind solving math problems multiple ways.  I agree with some of what you said, but certainly not this.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2017, 11:31:40 AM »
Sounds like a good plan!

I will say this....for a very selfish reason I'm kicking myself for not waiting a year.  She's going to graduate at 17, which when she was 5 I thought would be super cool.  Now that she's almost 9 and our time with her is half over, I wish I could have another year with her in high school until she's 18.  Kind of silly, but my heart is already hurting that she could go off to school a year earlier than she otherwise would have if I had held her back.
I agree with this, its not the same after people leave the nest. Its ironic that on a forum devoted to working 20 years before FIRE that we forget that children are already practically FIRE. No job, no responsibilities and days full of play. Then we toss them in school so they can get jobs and retire early themselves.

Effectively, is it better to have one more year at home or one more in retirement?

nobody123

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2017, 12:31:11 PM »
It's not ironic that they get to use a calculator after demonstrating how they understand the thought process behind solving math problems multiple ways.  I agree with some of what you said, but certainly not this.

The irony is that in a year and a half, nobody will care if these same elementary school children know that the commutative property even exists.  9 X 6 = 54, 6 X 9 = 54, just punch both into the calculator and move on with life.

I guess I just disagree with the order they learn things in now.  Drawing pictures and writing sentences to explain that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because of the commutative property of multiplication is premature at best when they haven't yet memorized that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because times tables are out of vogue.  The only reason any third grader needs to know that 9 X 6 = 6 X 9 is an example of the commutative property of multiplication is to answer a standardized test question.  It has been a while since I was in third grade, and maybe I learned it was called the commutative property that year, but I guarantee it wasn't until after many hours of flash cards and worksheets that made me memorize the basic truths of the times table.

BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2017, 12:42:44 PM »
It's not ironic that they get to use a calculator after demonstrating how they understand the thought process behind solving math problems multiple ways.  I agree with some of what you said, but certainly not this.

The irony is that in a year and a half, nobody will care if these same elementary school children know that the commutative property even exists.  9 X 6 = 54, 6 X 9 = 54, just punch both into the calculator and move on with life.

I guess I just disagree with the order they learn things in now.  Drawing pictures and writing sentences to explain that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because of the commutative property of multiplication is premature at best when they haven't yet memorized that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because times tables are out of vogue.  The only reason any third grader needs to know that 9 X 6 = 6 X 9 is an example of the commutative property of multiplication is to answer a standardized test question.  It has been a while since I was in third grade, and maybe I learned it was called the commutative property that year, but I guarantee it wasn't until after many hours of flash cards and worksheets that made me memorize the basic truths of the times table.
Totally disagree.
30 years ago in a little Catholic school I was taught multiplication through the "drill 'em and kill 'em" method. We memorized all the facts, but didn't really understand it.
Last year my first grader was taught that multiplying was just an easy way of "adding sets" and division was just how you could split those groups up. This gave him the ability to solve the problems, albeit the long way. This year in second grade he is memorizing the multiplication tables. Now he has the ability to answer quickly but also CHECK his work. He has a much better understanding of math than I ever did, and he doesn't suffer from the very common "mathxiety".

Jules13

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2017, 12:44:22 PM »
Nobody123....So True!  That kind of math, where my son had to draw a picture and explain his answer (when he could solve the problem in his head) nearly killed us in 2nd grade.  Tears every time he had math homework.  It was awful.  Then, after he finished 4th grade and I started homeschooling him for 5th, I really found out how hard it was for him to progress because he had not been made to simply memorize his multiplication facts.  Harder concepts were very frustrating because he would get hung up on the easy/basic math facts (either addition, subtraction or multiplication) that he should have just known by then.  We had to stop for a couple of weeks and just work on that daily until he could just rattle them off.  Only then, could we move through more difficult math concepts easily and without him getting really frustrated.  I know not everyone learns the same way, but the way they jump around so much and never sit with one concept in math and poo poo simple memorization (drill and kill) is really making it so much harder on learning, in my opinion.  BUT, that's a soapbox for another day....sorry!!!

boarder42

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2017, 12:54:12 PM »
It's not ironic that they get to use a calculator after demonstrating how they understand the thought process behind solving math problems multiple ways.  I agree with some of what you said, but certainly not this.

The irony is that in a year and a half, nobody will care if these same elementary school children know that the commutative property even exists.  9 X 6 = 54, 6 X 9 = 54, just punch both into the calculator and move on with life.

I guess I just disagree with the order they learn things in now.  Drawing pictures and writing sentences to explain that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because of the commutative property of multiplication is premature at best when they haven't yet memorized that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because times tables are out of vogue.  The only reason any third grader needs to know that 9 X 6 = 6 X 9 is an example of the commutative property of multiplication is to answer a standardized test question.  It has been a while since I was in third grade, and maybe I learned it was called the commutative property that year, but I guarantee it wasn't until after many hours of flash cards and worksheets that made me memorize the basic truths of the times table.
Totally disagree.
30 years ago in a little Catholic school I was taught multiplication through the "drill 'em and kill 'em" method. We memorized all the facts, but didn't really understand it.
Last year my first grader was taught that multiplying was just an easy way of "adding sets" and division was just how you could split those groups up. This gave him the ability to solve the problems, albeit the long way. This year in second grade he is memorizing the multiplication tables. Now he has the ability to answer quickly but also CHECK his work. He has a much better understanding of math than I ever did, and he doesn't suffer from the very common "mathxiety".

yep the way math is taught in school now is how my brain actually does it.   Its likely why i was better and faster at math than everyone else b/c we were all taught the long division and multiplication.  but i naturally break things down to their simplest form and put them back together which is more or less how these are taught now.  A much simpler way to do it.
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Sailor Sam

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2017, 01:07:01 PM »
Since we're talking about math, do schools now regularly screen for dyscalculia, like they do for dyslexia? I'd be interested in knowing if the phenomenon is gaining more attention, and early intervention.

BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #118 on: January 23, 2017, 01:07:41 PM »
It's not ironic that they get to use a calculator after demonstrating how they understand the thought process behind solving math problems multiple ways.  I agree with some of what you said, but certainly not this.

The irony is that in a year and a half, nobody will care if these same elementary school children know that the commutative property even exists.  9 X 6 = 54, 6 X 9 = 54, just punch both into the calculator and move on with life.

I guess I just disagree with the order they learn things in now.  Drawing pictures and writing sentences to explain that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because of the commutative property of multiplication is premature at best when they haven't yet memorized that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because times tables are out of vogue.  The only reason any third grader needs to know that 9 X 6 = 6 X 9 is an example of the commutative property of multiplication is to answer a standardized test question.  It has been a while since I was in third grade, and maybe I learned it was called the commutative property that year, but I guarantee it wasn't until after many hours of flash cards and worksheets that made me memorize the basic truths of the times table.
Totally disagree.
30 years ago in a little Catholic school I was taught multiplication through the "drill 'em and kill 'em" method. We memorized all the facts, but didn't really understand it.
Last year my first grader was taught that multiplying was just an easy way of "adding sets" and division was just how you could split those groups up. This gave him the ability to solve the problems, albeit the long way. This year in second grade he is memorizing the multiplication tables. Now he has the ability to answer quickly but also CHECK his work. He has a much better understanding of math than I ever did, and he doesn't suffer from the very common "mathxiety".

yep the way math is taught in school now is how my brain actually does it.   Its likely why i was better and faster at math than everyone else b/c we were all taught the long division and multiplication.  but i naturally break things down to their simplest form and put them back together which is more or less how these are taught now.  A much simpler way to do it.
Exactly. Everyone freaks out about "common core math" (although the common core and the new way math is taught are actually unrelated) but it's basically just like making change. How hard is that?
When I started really working (in college) with people who knew and understood higher math, I realized that they all do math this way (breaking problems down, flipping them around etc). I believe I was taught to just memorize it because I still had nuns as teachers and many of them didn't really understand math.

jezebel

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #119 on: January 23, 2017, 01:24:28 PM »
It's not ironic that they get to use a calculator after demonstrating how they understand the thought process behind solving math problems multiple ways.  I agree with some of what you said, but certainly not this.

The irony is that in a year and a half, nobody will care if these same elementary school children know that the commutative property even exists.  9 X 6 = 54, 6 X 9 = 54, just punch both into the calculator and move on with life.

I guess I just disagree with the order they learn things in now.  Drawing pictures and writing sentences to explain that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because of the commutative property of multiplication is premature at best when they haven't yet memorized that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because times tables are out of vogue.  The only reason any third grader needs to know that 9 X 6 = 6 X 9 is an example of the commutative property of multiplication is to answer a standardized test question.  It has been a while since I was in third grade, and maybe I learned it was called the commutative property that year, but I guarantee it wasn't until after many hours of flash cards and worksheets that made me memorize the basic truths of the times table.
Totally disagree.
30 years ago in a little Catholic school I was taught multiplication through the "drill 'em and kill 'em" method. We memorized all the facts, but didn't really understand it.
Last year my first grader was taught that multiplying was just an easy way of "adding sets" and division was just how you could split those groups up. This gave him the ability to solve the problems, albeit the long way. This year in second grade he is memorizing the multiplication tables. Now he has the ability to answer quickly but also CHECK his work. He has a much better understanding of math than I ever did, and he doesn't suffer from the very common "mathxiety".

yep the way math is taught in school now is how my brain actually does it.   Its likely why i was better and faster at math than everyone else b/c we were all taught the long division and multiplication.  but i naturally break things down to their simplest form and put them back together which is more or less how these are taught now.  A much simpler way to do it.
Exactly. Everyone freaks out about "common core math" (although the common core and the new way math is taught are actually unrelated) but it's basically just like making change. How hard is that?
When I started really working (in college) with people who knew and understood higher math, I realized that they all do math this way (breaking problems down, flipping them around etc). I believe I was taught to just memorize it because I still had nuns as teachers and many of them didn't really understand math.

Exactly (there is a lot of confusion out there about "common core").  I wish was taught math this way.  I can tell, even at this early stage, that my first grader will soon be better at thinking about math problems than me.  And I was great at math up until pre-calc, because I was good at the Catholic school memorization method.

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2017, 01:46:36 PM »
Nobody123....So True!  That kind of math, where my son had to draw a picture and explain his answer (when he could solve the problem in his head) nearly killed us in 2nd grade.  Tears every time he had math homework.  It was awful.  Then, after he finished 4th grade and I started homeschooling him for 5th, I really found out how hard it was for him to progress because he had not been made to simply memorize his multiplication facts.  Harder concepts were very frustrating because he would get hung up on the easy/basic math facts (either addition, subtraction or multiplication) that he should have just known by then.  We had to stop for a couple of weeks and just work on that daily until he could just rattle them off.  Only then, could we move through more difficult math concepts easily and without him getting really frustrated.  I know not everyone learns the same way, but the way they jump around so much and never sit with one concept in math and poo poo simple memorization (drill and kill) is really making it so much harder on learning, in my opinion.  BUT, that's a soapbox for another day....sorry!!!
I think this is going to depend on the kid.

From what BeanCounter said above...

2nd grade was the onslaught of "common core" math, which is much like described above with properties, drawing pictures, etc.  And I was confused by it.  It took me a few days to figure it out, but once I did - I could do a lot more math in my head than ever before (and I'm an engineer, I don't suck at math!).

3rd grade came multiplication tables.  So first, they learn the how and the why, and then they learn the tables.

My son has gone from "because I just know" on a math question, to how to actually explain it.

BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2017, 01:52:12 PM »
It's not ironic that they get to use a calculator after demonstrating how they understand the thought process behind solving math problems multiple ways.  I agree with some of what you said, but certainly not this.

The irony is that in a year and a half, nobody will care if these same elementary school children know that the commutative property even exists.  9 X 6 = 54, 6 X 9 = 54, just punch both into the calculator and move on with life.

I guess I just disagree with the order they learn things in now.  Drawing pictures and writing sentences to explain that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because of the commutative property of multiplication is premature at best when they haven't yet memorized that 9 X 6 = 54 and 6 X 9 = 54 because times tables are out of vogue.  The only reason any third grader needs to know that 9 X 6 = 6 X 9 is an example of the commutative property of multiplication is to answer a standardized test question.  It has been a while since I was in third grade, and maybe I learned it was called the commutative property that year, but I guarantee it wasn't until after many hours of flash cards and worksheets that made me memorize the basic truths of the times table.
Totally disagree.
30 years ago in a little Catholic school I was taught multiplication through the "drill 'em and kill 'em" method. We memorized all the facts, but didn't really understand it.
Last year my first grader was taught that multiplying was just an easy way of "adding sets" and division was just how you could split those groups up. This gave him the ability to solve the problems, albeit the long way. This year in second grade he is memorizing the multiplication tables. Now he has the ability to answer quickly but also CHECK his work. He has a much better understanding of math than I ever did, and he doesn't suffer from the very common "mathxiety".

yep the way math is taught in school now is how my brain actually does it.   Its likely why i was better and faster at math than everyone else b/c we were all taught the long division and multiplication.  but i naturally break things down to their simplest form and put them back together which is more or less how these are taught now.  A much simpler way to do it.
Exactly. Everyone freaks out about "common core math" (although the common core and the new way math is taught are actually unrelated) but it's basically just like making change. How hard is that?
When I started really working (in college) with people who knew and understood higher math, I realized that they all do math this way (breaking problems down, flipping them around etc). I believe I was taught to just memorize it because I still had nuns as teachers and many of them didn't really understand math.

Exactly (there is a lot of confusion out there about "common core").  I wish was taught math this way.  I can tell, even at this early stage, that my first grader will soon be better at thinking about math problems than me.  And I was great at math up until pre-calc, because I was good at the Catholic school memorization method.
I wish everyone thought this way. When I hear parents say "Why can't they just teach it the way they always did? I don't get this! They are trying to dumb down our kids", I feel like screaming "THE REASON YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE NEEDED TO CHANGE THE WAY WE TEACH MATH!!!!!"
sorry- end rant.

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2017, 06:14:04 PM »
Quote
I wish everyone thought this way. When I hear parents say "Why can't they just teach it the way they always did? I don't get this! They are trying to dumb down our kids", I feel like screaming "THE REASON YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE NEEDED TO CHANGE THE WAY WE TEACH MATH!!!!!"
sorry- end rant.
+1000

I'm an engineer, good at math and memorization.  I work with a LOT of people who are from other countries, and they do SO MUCH MORE MATH in their heads, and understand it better, than I do.

I was doing great when my now 5th grader was in 2nd grade, but then I didn't keep it up.  Luckily I have a second chance with kid #2.

Lagom

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2017, 07:10:56 PM »
Math is one subject definitely taught better now than in the past (assuming the teachers understand how to approach the curriculum, which is not a given). The others are more arguable, especially when we get into things like mandating specific topics of study/books to read for English, Social Studies, etc., which doesn't apply to common core, but does pop up in various formats.

I'll also just mention that parents that are obsessed with their kids being ahead of the curve at all times frustrate me to no end. Your kid does not need to read at age 3, or 4, or even 6. They don't need to always be the youngest in their class with the best grades and most extracurriculars. Pushing them to do these things is more likely to cause harm than good. If they get there on their own, great, and I'm not saying you can't do extra reading lessons if they seem to enjoy them. But otherwise chill out and let your kids learn to love learning. That will serve them so much better in the long run.

nobody123

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2017, 10:33:29 AM »
To clarify, I'm not advocating that teaching methodology for math (or any other subject) shouldn't evolve, or standards for the end product of the education system shouldn't be raised, or the way that I best learn and understand things is what will work for everyone.  My concern is that rather than spending time reinforcing key concepts and facts, such as multiplication tables, that have a lifelong benefit, we are adding to the breadth of early elementary education in order to say we are covering more things that may not be as valuable in the long run.  I would much rather my kids have a reflexive, confident answer of what 9 X 3 is than have 3 different ways of describing the problem and having to work an art project to completion before spouting out "27".  Thirty years ago a teacher would have spent the time to ensure that the students could answer quickly and explain how they arrived at the answer, but now they are forced to move on so they can cover more things in the curriculum because a politician said so.

Lagom

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2017, 10:41:07 AM »
To clarify, I'm not advocating that teaching methodology for math (or any other subject) shouldn't evolve, or standards for the end product of the education system shouldn't be raised, or the way that I best learn and understand things is what will work for everyone.  My concern is that rather than spending time reinforcing key concepts and facts, such as multiplication tables, that have a lifelong benefit, we are adding to the breadth of early elementary education in order to say we are covering more things that may not be as valuable in the long run.  I would much rather my kids have a reflexive, confident answer of what 9 X 3 is than have 3 different ways of describing the problem and having to work an art project to completion before spouting out "27".  Thirty years ago a teacher would have spent the time to ensure that the students could answer quickly and explain how they arrived at the answer, but now they are forced to move on so they can cover more things in the curriculum because a politician said so.

To offer an anecdotal counterpoint, due to a pretty mediocre elementary school, I didn't memorize my multiplication tables until 6th grade, and yet I eventually aced calculus as a junior in high school back when it was pretty uncommon for juniors to be in calculus at all. While this may be because I am naturally good at math despite not being taught well as a gradeschooler, I would posit it's because I enjoyed math and thus pursued workbooks on my own time out of school (yes, I was a nerd). Those workbooks were not aimed at teaching me that 3x9 = 27, but they used puzzles that taught methodologies resembling the common core today. Thus I was "behind" in my concrete knowledge, but way ahead in my conceptual knowledge (the type of thing taught by common core), and thus I easily caught up with, and then surpassed, the majority of my peers. FWIW.

I have so many problems with our education system right now, but the math curriculum (when taught by a properly trained teacher, which is a huge caveat) is one thing I think we're doing much better.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2017, 11:36:08 PM »
To clarify, I'm not advocating that teaching methodology for math (or any other subject) shouldn't evolve, or standards for the end product of the education system shouldn't be raised, or the way that I best learn and understand things is what will work for everyone.  My concern is that rather than spending time reinforcing key concepts and facts, such as multiplication tables, that have a lifelong benefit, we are adding to the breadth of early elementary education in order to say we are covering more things that may not be as valuable in the long run.  I would much rather my kids have a reflexive, confident answer of what 9 X 3 is than have 3 different ways of describing the problem and having to work an art project to completion before spouting out "27".  Thirty years ago a teacher would have spent the time to ensure that the students could answer quickly and explain how they arrived at the answer, but now they are forced to move on so they can cover more things in the curriculum because a politician said so.

While I don't have much experience with the math currently being taught at the primary school level, my understanding, and limited experience, is that the students are able to quickly and accurately answer the 9x3 question. They are also able to quickly and accurately answer larger multiplication number than I ever learned through rote multiplication table study. While doing the work on paper may look like an 'art project', once learned the answers come at least as easily and quickly as the 'old' way.
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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #127 on: January 25, 2017, 06:04:12 AM »
I actually am very thankful for the Common Core math (and I'm a conservative, so I don't feel the need to defend it).

Because of my daughter's various issues (gifted but with very slow processing/fine motor issues/anxiety) she can't very easily memorize math facts or get answers down on paper quickly (Mad Minute type worksheets...not good).  Or even if she has it memorized, she still feels the need to double check everything, so it's slow going regardless. 

With common core, they are trying to develop math sense.  And it also happens to be the way I naturally do math, and it's why I can do it so quickly in my head. 

Most people aren't going to learn what .15 of any number is....but you can figure out a 15% tip if you know .1 of the number - then take half of that and add it back to the .1.   120 x.1 is 12, half of that is 6, the tip is 12 + 6. 

I've practiced this so many times in my head, that I can calculate a tip quite quickly.  From what I've gathered this is similar to what they teaching students...ways to manipulate the math.  But they have also, at least in our district, taught traditional ways as well.  So the kids are given a bunch of strategies to use and they are free to pick which strategy works best for them, once they learn the various ones.  YMMV.   

Shoot, as I age, I just don't trust my memorized math facts any more.  I use strategies all the time to make sure that memorized fact is still quite accurate. 

pbkmaine

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Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #128 on: January 25, 2017, 06:30:33 AM »
Interesting math discussion. One of my oldest friends, who has a degree in EE from MIT, has always done math the Common Core way. She has never learned her multiplication tables. She does not need them.

BeanCounter

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #129 on: January 25, 2017, 06:48:06 AM »
Interesting math discussion. One of my oldest friends, who has a degree in EE from MIT, has always done math the Common Core way. She has never learned her multiplication tables. She does not need them.
My Uncle is an MIT grad (was admitted at age 16) and is the math department head for a state University. He says absolutely this is the way math should be taught. I trust that he knows what he is talking about.

mm1970

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #130 on: January 25, 2017, 10:27:14 AM »
To clarify, I'm not advocating that teaching methodology for math (or any other subject) shouldn't evolve, or standards for the end product of the education system shouldn't be raised, or the way that I best learn and understand things is what will work for everyone.  My concern is that rather than spending time reinforcing key concepts and facts, such as multiplication tables, that have a lifelong benefit, we are adding to the breadth of early elementary education in order to say we are covering more things that may not be as valuable in the long run.  I would much rather my kids have a reflexive, confident answer of what 9 X 3 is than have 3 different ways of describing the problem and having to work an art project to completion before spouting out "27".  Thirty years ago a teacher would have spent the time to ensure that the students could answer quickly and explain how they arrived at the answer, but now they are forced to move on so they can cover more things in the curriculum because a politician said so.

While I don't have much experience with the math currently being taught at the primary school level, my understanding, and limited experience, is that the students are able to quickly and accurately answer the 9x3 question. They are also able to quickly and accurately answer larger multiplication number than I ever learned through rote multiplication table study. While doing the work on paper may look like an 'art project', once learned the answers come at least as easily and quickly as the 'old' way.
This was my experience too.  For a bit of time when I was helping with homework in 2nd grade, I could do way more higher level multiplication in my head.  Alas, I lost the ability.  My son can do that in his head, and I need paper (carry the two, etc.)

frugalmom

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2017, 10:51:35 AM »
My daughter is in Kindergarten this year.  She has an April birthday and will be 6 soon. 

She is one of the youngest kids in her class! There are kids who have been 7 since November, in her classroom.  My daughter is doing fine and has yet to learn anything in school.  She was reading before Kindergarten, which is typical here.  I am glad to share with anyone what we have done since she was little. It is not anything taxing, we have always just been consistent. 

On her first report card the only "negative" and I am not kidding....was the music teacher telling me she did not have "perfect pitch".  Ok!  I'm guessing it is because she can read music from choir/piano and also can read the words somehow the woman thought she'd be a choral virtuoso??? Luckily the church choir she sings in doesn't care!

The other day we had a playdate with a girl who is nearly a foot taller than her and also about 18 months older; my daughter had to help her read a couple words in the book she had chosen.  So red-shirting is not always the key to success!

GuitarStv

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #132 on: February 06, 2017, 11:25:39 AM »
On her first report card the only "negative" and I am not kidding....was the music teacher telling me she did not have "perfect pitch".  Ok!  I'm guessing it is because she can read music from choir/piano and also can read the words somehow the woman thought she'd be a choral virtuoso??? Luckily the church choir she sings in doesn't care!

Strange that she would assume anyone has perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch is very rare, and it's not always a good thing to have . . . if you have perfect pitch and you play a tune where the band has tuned down a couple percent (a pretty common occurance - although maybe less so now with the ubiquity of electronic tuners) the music sounds totally wrong to you.

StarBright

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2017, 11:36:52 AM »
On her first report card the only "negative" and I am not kidding....was the music teacher telling me she did not have "perfect pitch".  Ok!  I'm guessing it is because she can read music from choir/piano and also can read the words somehow the woman thought she'd be a choral virtuoso??? Luckily the church choir she sings in doesn't care!

Strange that she would assume anyone has perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch is very rare, and it's not always a good thing to have . . . if you have perfect pitch and you play a tune where the band has tuned down a couple percent (a pretty common occurance - although maybe less so now with the ubiquity of electronic tuners) the music sounds totally wrong to you.

I agree- as a person with multiple music degrees I know very few people with actual perfect pitch (I certainly don't have it). Most performers I know also don't have it. If she can read music at at age 5 well enough to sing in a choir that is insanely  impressive. It wasn't a skill I truly learned until my late teens.

From a purely curious parenting angle - what age did you start her on piano? We're contemplating starting our five year old but he still doesn't seem ready for it (to us (both professionally educated musicians)). Did it take her a while to get into it or did she just settle right in to reading music?  Also, what method? 


spookytaffy

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #134 on: February 06, 2017, 12:21:34 PM »
School psychologist here--

My 2 cents as a parent--my son's birthday is early July. We sent him to kindergarten in August. He was more than ready; although somewhat behind socially.  Never had any problems until a little glitch in high school. Did fine after that.  His grades dropped a bit for about a year, but then he straightened out and graduated, went to college and is now career military.  A second personal note--my dad, who was incredibly intelligent and worked with some of the first computers, talked about the fact that he "flunked" kindergarten.  Back in his day, they could start kindergarten as soon as they turned 4 so his parents sent him to school in November after his 4th birthday.  Since he was so young, he wasn't ready and they had him repeat kindergarten the next year.  He talked about being stupid and flunking kindergarten even as an adult and throughout his entire life.  It really messed with him even though he knew why he repeated was due to the weird November start date and having started basically on his 4th birthday.

Now my professional hat--I deal with this issue every year.  My main job in the schools is to identify students at risk for learning problems or behavior problems.  Research into retention (and redshirting is a form of retention, just not your typical retention) by the National Association of School Psychologists indicates that  a single retention increases the likelihood of the child dropping out of school by 50%. If they are retained more than once (and I've seen upward of 3 retentions of a single student--don't get me started!) they are likely to drop out by 90%.  If they are retained and then later found eligible for special education services (for instance have a diagnosis of a learning disability), they are 90% likely to drop out.

Also, there have been studies on stress levels on children where various stressful events are rated high to low.  Grade retention is number TWO, behind only the death of a parent.  So a student repeating kindergarten, or any grade, perceives the stress level just below that of having mom or dad die.  There is also that stigma of seeing your friends in a higher grade.  It especially shows up in high school when "your class" is graduating and you have another year left.  I've actually seen kids drop out of school to avoid this issue.

I don't have the citation, but there was a study done several years ago that showed the NUMBER ONE reason a teacher recommends a student be retained is physical size--nothing to do with readiness or academics, just size.  Based on the size, the teacher makes the inaccurate assumption that the child is "immature" and "needs an extra year." 

I have personally seen this phenomenon in my schools.  It's rather bizarre.  When I start asking specific questions about the child and why the teacher thinks  he/she should stay in the grade another year, the teacher starts talking about the child's maturity level.  OK. So he acts silly and tells jokes.  He gets straight As and has great support at home. So let's keep him in grade xx again since he annoys you.

Of course, every child is different. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence per se.  As a general, global rule, these things apply.  For an individual child, they may not.  In over 20 years in the schools and of all the children I have seen retained for one reason or another, I think there have been two that truly benefited from the retention.  I have only personally recommended that one child be retained in 20 years. That was due to significant illness and the fact that the child was absent so much he missed more than half of the school year. That child also had super supportive parents who were able to talk with the child about why this was going to happen and put it in a positive note. That particular child was actually relieved since he did not feel ready for the next grade. 

Sorry for the soapbox.  I fight this fight every year :-) 

To the OP, if your daughter is having some fine motor difficulties, ask for an evaluation by the occupational therapist to see if she has a true delay and would require actual therapy.

Lagom

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2017, 12:31:34 PM »
@spookytaffy - totally agree that retention should be much more rare than it is, but I wouldn't personally call "redshirting" kindergarten a form of retention, as none of the drawbacks you cite apply in that scenario. As far as the kid is concerned they are still in preschool, and then they are in kindergarten along with all of the other first timers. As you mentioned with your dad, the downsides to putting a kid in school too early could very possibly outweigh any positives (which are what, anyway? Bragging rights for the parents?).

That said, I wouldn't consider holding my child out of kindergarten if they were comfortably within the usual age cohort, but if they are on the bubble, I think either way can be fine. All said, there are many advantages to delaying and few, if any, drawbacks, so I would err towards that decision personally.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 12:47:19 AM by Lagom »

Psychstache

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #136 on: February 07, 2017, 10:59:31 AM »

Now my professional hat--I deal with this issue every year.  My main job in the schools is to identify students at risk for learning problems or behavior problems.  Research into retention (and redshirting is a form of retention, just not your typical retention) by the National Association of School Psychologists indicates that  a single retention increases the likelihood of the child dropping out of school by 50%. If they are retained more than once (and I've seen upward of 3 retentions of a single student--don't get me started!) they are likely to drop out by 90%.  If they are retained and then later found eligible for special education services (for instance have a diagnosis of a learning disability), they are 90% likely to drop out.

I'm almost positive that the studies from NASP I saw indicated that when reviewing cases of delayed starting Kinder for kids with 'bubble birthdays', they were no more likely to drop out than the general population, so they effects of retention on risk for dropping out weren't present in those cases (sidenote: I am with you that 'true' retention is horrible and often done haphazardly).

spookytaffy

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #137 on: February 07, 2017, 11:52:02 AM »
Thanks psychstache for the clarification.  I honestly hadn't looked at them lately; just went by the seat of my pants and not DATA!  :-)

SisterX

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #138 on: February 07, 2017, 11:54:42 AM »
On her first report card the only "negative" and I am not kidding....was the music teacher telling me she did not have "perfect pitch".  Ok!  I'm guessing it is because she can read music from choir/piano and also can read the words somehow the woman thought she'd be a choral virtuoso??? Luckily the church choir she sings in doesn't care!

Strange that she would assume anyone has perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch is very rare, and it's not always a good thing to have . . . if you have perfect pitch and you play a tune where the band has tuned down a couple percent (a pretty common occurance - although maybe less so now with the ubiquity of electronic tuners) the music sounds totally wrong to you.

I agree- as a person with multiple music degrees I know very few people with actual perfect pitch (I certainly don't have it). Most performers I know also don't have it. If she can read music at at age 5 well enough to sing in a choir that is insanely  impressive. It wasn't a skill I truly learned until my late teens.

From a purely curious parenting angle - what age did you start her on piano? We're contemplating starting our five year old but he still doesn't seem ready for it (to us (both professionally educated musicians)). Did it take her a while to get into it or did she just settle right in to reading music?  Also, what method?

Having talked with several friends who are private music teachers, not one of them recommends starting a kid before, at the very earliest, age 5. Most won't even take students younger than that, and the kid has to show a pretty big interest in the instrument for them to take even 5-yr-olds. 7 is more appropriate due to the fine motor development and attention span. Younger kids are more likely to drop an instrument as it's just a passing fancy for them, have to be coddled more and pushed to practice, etc.. Older kids usually want to stick with it if they realize that music is their thing.

Of course, a lot of this also depends on whether or not it's the parents pushing music education (yay in some ways, in others I think it's one more example of parental 'look at my kid, he/she is so much better than other kids') and if the kid actually has an interest in or talent for music. Yes, there are outlier kids who are musical geniuses by the age of 4 or whatever, but those are the exception and not the rule. And if your kid is like that, you'll know it because you won't be able to keep them away from music.

As a musician and parent, if my kid really wants to learn an instrument I'll let her start at age 7. Until then, exposure to music and working on fine motor skills is far more important. Having a musical atmosphere around and singing with her will help her develop the base skills and appreciation for music that will carry her forward.

fuzzy math

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #139 on: February 14, 2017, 05:10:33 PM »
I have a 4.5 yr old boy (birthday in early May) who is not very advanced for his age in speech, writing or maturity. It's a tough call. I feel the same burden that whatever decision I make will follow him for the next 15 years of his life.

We have run the gambit in our family. My oldest boy is 10 (January birthday) and in 5th grade. He started Kinder on time, and we quickly figured out he was the only kid in class who could read chapter books and do higher level addition. So he was tested and skipped into 1st grade mid year. No regrets there, other than that 5th graders are teaching him some horrible social lessons (bad words, bad behavior etc).

My only daughter is 6 (birthday in April) and in her correct grade for her age, which is 1st grade. She cried when she realized she would not get to skip a grade like her older brother.

Then there's my youngest. It would feel completely horrible to have a held back, a regular and a skipped grade kid. It bothered me that my daughter took notice of the fact that she wasn't skipped and assumed it meant she wasn't smart. Not the message we want to send :-/

FinallyAwake

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #140 on: February 14, 2017, 09:26:34 PM »

We also work on writing/problem solving/tracing/etc worksheets with our daughter (no other parent I have spoken to does this) and build in counting, learning letters in everything we do throughout our day.


Guess I'm the first one to chime in with a totally different recommendation.

You are already homeschooling her (see the clipped quote above); why not just continue that at home for another year? 

Seems like it would solve your dilemmas....for this year, at least!  :)   

Hargrove

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #141 on: February 17, 2017, 09:04:59 PM »
I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around this.

The redshirting seems likely to create an additional layer of redshirting, once the first layer becomes popular, which is going to quickly ruin the last shred of accommodation anyone gives teachers to get their jobs done. Well, Billy would be smarter and bigger and more ready at age 7, so he'd be some kind of ultra-kindergartener! Let's get him some completely ridiculous advantages instead of acknowledging that it doesn't matter whether you get your degree at age 22 or age 23, or are 4'11" or 4'10". Are we really prepared to advocate holding a child back a year from starting school so they won't feel short?

Kids get picked on in school for anything. It doesn't matter if their name is Moonbeam or they wear glasses or they farted once - they will get made fun of. The ones who know they are loved and who didn't start school with a source of crippling anxiety will usually move on. They will appear confident, and overcome it, and be admired, and create a self-perpetuating cycle. Focusing on building a core sense of worth (not by just saying "you're special and can do anything") is the greatest gift parents can give, not 2", and I hope the competition for college doesn't devolve into this arms race for crap we shouldn't be competing over. It hugely distracts from our need to pay better for competitive teaching, teach economic risk/reward and personal finance BEFORE paying college bills, and to have a much more collaborative expectation of parents and teachers (no, I'm not talking about bi-weekly progress reports and instant online availability for all tests and quizzes - guh).

This isn't our kids' anxiety; it's ours.

doctormac

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #142 on: February 18, 2017, 10:21:38 AM »
I think this is a very kid by kid decision. My youngest boy is born the day before the cutoff. He'd either be the very youngest or the very oldest in his kindergarten class. As such we elected to wait a year. I have no regrets about doing this. Had we started ASAP he would have been emotionally immature and I don't think it would have gone as well.

As in Gladwell's Outliers for sports, older kids tend to do better in school. They show more aptitude, respond to the teaching better, and therefore are (frankly) given extra attention by teachers. It's like the oldest kid on the hockey team. They just perform better so get more of the coach's attention and are challenged more to be greater. Not that it should be that way, but that's human nature.

That's not to say a younger kid can't do great in school. Just the law of averages. And like I said, very kid-specific. Had my oldest been in the same boat I probably wouldn't have waited given the maturity level she had at the same age. And pushing the "red shirt" date back months and months is crazy. If it's 1 month or so, do what you think is best.

SisterX

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #143 on: February 20, 2017, 09:09:52 AM »
I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around this.

The redshirting seems likely to create an additional layer of redshirting, once the first layer becomes popular, which is going to quickly ruin the last shred of accommodation anyone gives teachers to get their jobs done. Well, Billy would be smarter and bigger and more ready at age 7, so he'd be some kind of ultra-kindergartener! Let's get him some completely ridiculous advantages instead of acknowledging that it doesn't matter whether you get your degree at age 22 or age 23, or are 4'11" or 4'10". Are we really prepared to advocate holding a child back a year from starting school so they won't feel short?

Kids get picked on in school for anything. It doesn't matter if their name is Moonbeam or they wear glasses or they farted once - they will get made fun of. The ones who know they are loved and who didn't start school with a source of crippling anxiety will usually move on. They will appear confident, and overcome it, and be admired, and create a self-perpetuating cycle. Focusing on building a core sense of worth (not by just saying "you're special and can do anything") is the greatest gift parents can give, not 2", and I hope the competition for college doesn't devolve into this arms race for crap we shouldn't be competing over. It hugely distracts from our need to pay better for competitive teaching, teach economic risk/reward and personal finance BEFORE paying college bills, and to have a much more collaborative expectation of parents and teachers (no, I'm not talking about bi-weekly progress reports and instant online availability for all tests and quizzes - guh).

This isn't our kids' anxiety; it's ours.

+1. I think so much of this isn't about the kids, it's about parents trying to make themselves seem better through their kids. Ridiculous.

frugalmom

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #144 on: February 21, 2017, 02:26:46 PM »
On her first report card the only "negative" and I am not kidding....was the music teacher telling me she did not have "perfect pitch".  Ok!  I'm guessing it is because she can read music from choir/piano and also can read the words somehow the woman thought she'd be a choral virtuoso??? Luckily the church choir she sings in doesn't care!

Strange that she would assume anyone has perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch is very rare, and it's not always a good thing to have . . . if you have perfect pitch and you play a tune where the band has tuned down a couple percent (a pretty common occurance - although maybe less so now with the ubiquity of electronic tuners) the music sounds totally wrong to you.

I agree- as a person with multiple music degrees I know very few people with actual perfect pitch (I certainly don't have it). Most performers I know also don't have it. If she can read music at at age 5 well enough to sing in a choir that is insanely  impressive. It wasn't a skill I truly learned until my late teens.

From a purely curious parenting angle - what age did you start her on piano? We're contemplating starting our five year old but he still doesn't seem ready for it (to us (both professionally educated musicians)). Did it take her a while to get into it or did she just settle right in to reading music?  Also, what method?


Hi.  Sorry, I did not see this earlier.  Our piano teacher started her in her second year of preschool.  She told us that typically she does not like to start children until the 2nd semester of Kindergarten at the earliest.  At the time my daughter was very eager to learn.  I told the piano teacher to come for a lesson, if she lasted 5 minutes...I would take a lesson the other 25 minutes (I can read music but never learned piano).  The piano teacher thought this was a good option, because I could learn all and then teach my daughter.  Only problem; my daughter's first piano lesson lasted 45 minutes and I have yet to have a single lesson. LOL!

As for method, no idea?  If interested PM me and I will get the titles from her books.  Its a series and she is on the 7th or 8th book now.  There is music theory included, site reading, and then piano specific stuff.  The books include activities to color, etc.  Our piano teacher spent 20 years teaching preschool part time and teaching piano.  It was within the last 3 years she went to piano full time.  She is very good with my daughter.  On days when my daughter has "ants in her pants"; she takes her lesson standing or sitting in a chair she sits at the dining table.  The piano bench seems to be the biggest hurdle---the need to slide her bottom from one end to the other is very distracting?! LOL

She has had a couple of recitals.  The first she played Old McDonald.  It was fun.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #145 on: February 23, 2017, 11:26:48 AM »

we "redshirted" our oldest, for a variety of reasons - (preschool recommendation by 1 of 2 teachers, speech, size and the looming first year of all-day K.) The pros: He was old, confident, tall & big in Middle school. The Cons: having to always explain why he's a year older than many classmates, somewhat bored at school. We could have gone either way, but the small boost in the TOUGH middle school years was worthwhile for him.

we sent kid #4 to school early. she was 4 for a full month (late sept bday). she was ready for school, 7 years later she is top of her class, smart as a whip, working hard. The pros: she's been challenged and done well. the cons: She's in MS now. she's smaller, socially and physically not as mature as peers, and that is hard on her. 

In HS it will even out as we've seen with our other kids.

Kids seem to even out in both elementary & HS; but middle school is hard on kids no matter what. Kids' height, weight, clothing, hair, skin, athleticism, socialness, likeability, economics (and sometimes but not often academics) --- those are all part of the mix in Middle School.  Even with all of the anti-bullying, diversity messages & "no place for hate" messages -- i still see it: the smaller boys get picked on, the bigger girls too; the socially awkward kids as well. 

RIGHT NOW, in 6th grade, i often wish we had waited with #4; just because an older kid's mental maturity is more developed to handle the situations that i see everyday at her school (make up, body developing, texting pictures to boys, body image, Sports, etc. etc.).

In a few years i probably wont have those regrets because these things all change.  We do our best and our hardest to support her at home as she keeps growing and maturing. Very excited about the trampoline we just ordered to get her off her phone, and outside! 

** and i do have to say, a smart kid will be a smart kid independent of starting early or late; it will not make a difference with scholarships later on.
not young, but newbie here!

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #146 on: February 28, 2017, 07:49:31 PM »
I think it depends a lot on your child.  I have a son currently in 6th grade who is really struggling academically and socially, born in late July and started at 5. I really wish I had listened to the teacher before kindergarten who suggested (though very briefly) that we have him wait a year.  At the time, we knew he had problems (the meeting with the suggestion was related to disabilities we didn't understand that he had then) but figured he would grow out of them and kindergarten would solve them.  Now it is really too late because he is doing just a little too well for the school to be on board with holding him back and my husband wouldn't allow it because he thinks there would be a stigma now.  Starting him a year later would have helped a lot. 

On the flip side, when I was a teenager, my dad told me that if my older brother (1 year older with a learning disability that wasn't diagnosed until school had started) and I could have traded places and had me start at 4 and him start at 6, we both would have done better.  I was reading and writing well before kindergarten so probably would have done fine.

Part of the challenge with these decisions is that you often don't know the extent of academic and social problems until they are already in kindergarten, yet once they are, it is hard to change and hold them back.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #147 on: February 28, 2017, 09:59:52 PM »
I think it depends a lot on your child.  I have a son currently in 6th grade who is really struggling academically and socially, born in late July and started at 5. I really wish I had listened to the teacher before kindergarten who suggested (though very briefly) that we have him wait a year.  At the time, we knew he had problems (the meeting with the suggestion was related to disabilities we didn't understand that he had then) but figured he would grow out of them and kindergarten would solve them.  Now it is really too late because he is doing just a little too well for the school to be on board with holding him back and my husband wouldn't allow it because he thinks there would be a stigma now.  Starting him a year later would have helped a lot. 

On the flip side, when I was a teenager, my dad told me that if my older brother (1 year older with a learning disability that wasn't diagnosed until school had started) and I could have traded places and had me start at 4 and him start at 6, we both would have done better.  I was reading and writing well before kindergarten so probably would have done fine.

Part of the challenge with these decisions is that you often don't know the extent of academic and social problems until they are already in kindergarten, yet once they are, it is hard to change and hold them back.

I was in a similar situation to you (my kindergarten teacher suggested I skip a grade and my parents decided against it), and while I used to be mildly annoyed that I was "denied" a chance to gain a year on my life, so to speak, I have since changed my mind. I think even with smart kids (maybe not genuine prodigy/genius level, which have their own host of problems), I would personally err on the side of starting them late, assuming they are on the bubble age-wise. It's too hard to predict whether maturity will catch up with intellect, for example, or a whole host of other things that could derail a child that was advanced on the early side. As long as parents/teachers are thoughtful of the needs of a gifted child who might need some extra engagement because many grade-level exercises are too easy, I don't think there is any problem "holding back" that child for the long-term greater good. At worst, they will be just as successful as they otherwise would have been and at best, you have avoided negatively affecting their progress.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #148 on: March 01, 2017, 12:45:45 PM »
I think it depends a lot on your child.  I have a son currently in 6th grade who is really struggling academically and socially, born in late July and started at 5. I really wish I had listened to the teacher before kindergarten who suggested (though very briefly) that we have him wait a year.  At the time, we knew he had problems (the meeting with the suggestion was related to disabilities we didn't understand that he had then) but figured he would grow out of them and kindergarten would solve them.  Now it is really too late because he is doing just a little too well for the school to be on board with holding him back and my husband wouldn't allow it because he thinks there would be a stigma now.  Starting him a year later would have helped a lot. 

On the flip side, when I was a teenager, my dad told me that if my older brother (1 year older with a learning disability that wasn't diagnosed until school had started) and I could have traded places and had me start at 4 and him start at 6, we both would have done better.  I was reading and writing well before kindergarten so probably would have done fine.

Part of the challenge with these decisions is that you often don't know the extent of academic and social problems until they are already in kindergarten, yet once they are, it is hard to change and hold them back.

I was in a similar situation to you (my kindergarten teacher suggested I skip a grade and my parents decided against it), and while I used to be mildly annoyed that I was "denied" a chance to gain a year on my life, so to speak, I have since changed my mind. I think even with smart kids (maybe not genuine prodigy/genius level, which have their own host of problems), I would personally err on the side of starting them late, assuming they are on the bubble age-wise. It's too hard to predict whether maturity will catch up with intellect, for example, or a whole host of other things that could derail a child that was advanced on the early side. As long as parents/teachers are thoughtful of the needs of a gifted child who might need some extra engagement because many grade-level exercises are too easy, I don't think there is any problem "holding back" that child for the long-term greater good. At worst, they will be just as successful as they otherwise would have been and at best, you have avoided negatively affecting their progress.

There are just so many factors, and it's really hard to know isn't it?
My son is a July birthday (cutoff Sep 1) and he's starting kinder this year.

Many of my friends with boys and birthdays July/Aug are conflicted, and I'd say about half (mostly the SAHM half) are considering holding them back.  And probably 1/3 will.
I had a convo with a friend at a party (her son, late Aug) and she asked me if I would hold back.  I said no.  But honestly, academically and socially, my almost-5 year old is just fine.  Then again, he has a brother who is 6 years older. 

My older kid had 2 years of preschool (and daycare before that).  He was bored in kindergarten.  He was ahead of at least 2/3 of the kids, many of whom were English learners with no preschool.  This is the same demographic that kid #2 is going to be in school with.  There is no point holding him back, even though he's young and small.  Mentally, emotionally ready.

However, I did tell my friend that my OTHER friend (the teacher) says "always hold back boys". HER boys are the oldest in my older son's class.  And they are big (taller than me, though that's not hard).  If someone is on the fence, I don't really see a disadvantage to holding them back.

My older kid had a girl in his 1st grade class who skipped kindergarten.  After a week of kinder, they moved her into first.
My older kid has a classmate with a younger brother - late Aug birthday.  Started kinder and our school said he was not ready.  (He's a boy, he's young, his mom is a single parent, no preschool).  So they moved him into TK (transitional kinder).  If by some reason, my school wants to put my younger son in TK, I would consider it.

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Re: Red-shirting child? Delay Kindegarten?
« Reply #149 on: March 06, 2017, 03:31:25 AM »
Not sure what the friend meant,  but the "hold back boys" advice does has some basis to it. Late-maturation males are by far the most likely to have social issues at the primary and secondary school level. This could be modeled by bumping them up to a class where they are behind the curve maturation wise. I rarely use "always" in my own advice, but there may be a kernel of truth to this.
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