The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Mini Money Mustaches => Topic started by: cheapass on December 14, 2016, 08:26:08 AM
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My wife and I had a baby 2 months ago which means she is approaching the end of her 12 week maternity leave. Prior to the child, we were all set with our FIRE plan which consisted of both of us working for another 7-8 years and calling it quits at age 40 so we could be free to do whatever we want. My parents live 10 minutes away and my Mom is very interested in babysitting during the day. That put our minds at ease to have someone who actually gives a shit taking care of our kid.
Well..... I believe the mommy instinct has kicked in to some degree. She has started talking about how nobody will take care of our kid like she will, how hard it will be to leave our daughter, how stressful her job is, all the things she doesn't like about my parents, etc.
Has anyone experienced something similar? I'm trying to respect her emotions but redirect the conversation to the more "rational" sense (i.e. we shouldn't sacrifice long-term security for short-term comfort, her and I were both raised by people other than our moms, we have the unique opportunity to become wealthy at a young age, etc.)
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Listen to her and validate her feelings. Hormones are crazy in the first several months post-partum. Spending 24/7 with an infant, nursing, being the child's primary caregiver, having no sleep--very, very intense. The child is the center of your universe, and rational thinking is very difficult.
I LOVE being a working mom, but it was still incredibly hard to hand off my baby to someone else in the beginning. We spent $1500/month on a daycare run by the hospital where I gave birth--one of the most expensive options possible--because it was the only one that was up to my extremely high standards. Everything got a lot easier and less scary over time.
Nothing is set in stone. Listen to her fears and concerns and console her. Just let her cry. Going back to work is really hard the first time. Go through with the plan and set a deadline on it--make a contingency plan for if going back to work just doesn't turn out to be worth it. Put a date on reevaluating the situation in a few months' time, and make a concrete plan B: hey, if it just isn't worth it to be a working mom, here's what we can do financially to make it with me being a SAHM. Might have to put off the ER thing for a while, but we decided it was worth it based on the evidence. Maybe over time she can find a part-time option that'll work, or some kind of work-from-home arrangement.
But for the third time: let her cry. Don't try to talk her out of her anxiety.
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This probably isn't the same for everyone, but I felt like dealing with daycare when my kids were babies was a 1000x easier than it is for now school-aged children (the youngest currently in preschool 2x/week). School schedules are crap. They just are. At least with infant daycare, there was just one place/person/other schedule to deal with. The school called a snow day on Monday for no good fucking reason. The roads were bad on Sunday. They were completely fine by Monday morning. The public school doesn't offer any daycare for the year after 12/21. Add in extra-curriculars, and it gets very challenging to work full-time. I need to get back to work for financial reasons, but I don't know how I'm possibly going to juggle everything when I do. I say, shoot for the ER and try to suck it up for a few more years--at least until school starts.
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First off, there is no rational vs emotional argument when it comes to mothers leaving their kids when they aren’t comfortable doing so. To a mother who feels strongly that she needs to be with her baby, it is perfectly rational and logical to stay with said baby. In fact, many evolutionary psychologists and scientists will tell you the overwhelming desire to stay attached at the hip to your young infant is the height of rationality. The newfound behavior of leaving a 12 week old baby for 8 hours a day with no contact during that time is what is unusual in the grand scheme of mammalian behavior and reproduction. So I think you need to switch your understandings if you are going to have even a chance at a supportive, intelligent discussion with her about this. These feelings she is experiencing are not just mere preferences or emotions, in some ways they are actual hardwired instincts. There is a reason even moms who love their jobs and genuinely want to return to work often feel alot of stress and anxiety when they do first go back.
Explore different options with her – can she negotiate going back part time at first, or extend her maternity leave at her employer for an additional month? A slow transition back to full time might allay her fears and give you some much needed time to adjust to juggling 2 jobs and a baby. If she really is adamant about not returning at all, the conversation will be harder.
I chose to be a SAHM after having my daughter. I felt and still feel strongly that parents should be given every opportunity to spend as much time as they want with their infants in their first year for everyone's sakes. Until the government steps in and mandates generous paid maternity leaves, it will fall to individual families to do their best with what they have and make sacrifices to ensure this happens. A few months ago I was able to land some part time consulting work from home, and now I make a little money on the side while baby naps. Depending on your wife's field, she might be able to do something similar. Thankfully for some of us it doesn't have to be completely either/or.
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kids change things.
in my premustachian days (and being a little crazy myself) after the twins were born I bought a new crewcab pickup for saftey, reliablity, etc. somewhat on the premise she would soon have a job. Now we have a PhD SAHM.
Got some sense in me a little later and sold the pickup. But faced up that we would be going on a much reduced income for quite a while.
If yall can really optimize your spending and maybe upyour personal income and by the time you factor in (lack of) childcare/ carpooling/soccer/errand/tax burden/credits costs, being a one income household is not that much of a disadvantage(as you would think). Kids were probably going to delay your FIRing more than you realized, and if not then you can find savings in places you did not expect.
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First off, you need to approach this in a really accepting and listening way. People's priorities change, and if she was kind of going along with the ER idea but not madly in love with it, having a baby may very well have changed the way she thinks about it. But you shouldn't backburner your own needs: you don't want to work at *your* job forever, either, and if your wife stays home that is going to require sacrifice on your part (and pressure on you, as well, since you will be the sole financial support of the family).
You need to discuss more options than "Mrs. cheapass goes back to work immediately at end of maternity leave and works continuously for the next eight years until we both retire" and "Mrs. cheapass stays home indefinitely and cheapass works an extra X years before retiring."
Some ideas for discussion/consideration:
If your wife did become a SAHP right now and never went back to work, how would that affect your retirement numbers? Is she the higher earner/lower earner/equal earner? If you guys had to live on only your salary indefinitely, how far would that push out your retirement? (Don't forget to consider your tax situation here, you'll keep a lot more of your money if your income is lower.)
How long does your wife think she would want to stay home with your kid? A couple of years? Until s/he's in school? How big of a hit will her career/earnings path take if she is out for that number of years (this varies wildly with different careers/industries)?
Is part-time work an option for your wife, and would she feel better about that than she would about full-time work?
Are there ways you could trim your lifestyle/expenses in other areas that would help offset some of the loss of her income?
Conversely, what can you do to help make being a working parent as easy as possible for your wife? (I'm sure you're great and helpful, but it sounds like your wife is very much the primary parent.)
Do you have parental leave available to you and how would you and your wife feel about *you* staying home with your baby for the first couple of months while she went back to work? Would it make more sense for you to stay home long-term and for your wife to work?
Does your wife value the idea of retiring at 40 as much as you do? How many more years of work is your wife willing to add on to her working life in order to be able to stay home with your kid now?
Can your wife *try* going back to work for, say, a month, and then you can re-evaluate?
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Does your wife have any leeway at work to take unpaid maternity leave, say 6 months?
I've been an at-home parent for almost 13 years, although I did end up working (paid) from home for about 7 years. I found it very hard to leave a tiny baby... all they really want at that age is to be with their mom, and it's hard to deny them that. Personally though, by the time my babies were 6-8 months old I was dying for a break and I think it would have been fine to leave the baby with family (though I never had that option.) By age 2.5 years, tots are usually ready and willing to attend preschool part time, and I wouldn't feel too bad about putting them in preschool full time after about age 4... in terms of what I think is what is most comfortable for babies and young children. No judgement implied on those who had to put babies in day care sooner... have seen children raised in many ways and they all turn out fine.
Maybe your wife will follow a similar trajectory, if you want to get an idea about how much time it might take for her to separate.
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First off, you need to approach this in a really accepting and listening way. People's priorities change, and if she was kind of going along with the ER idea but not madly in love with it, having a baby may very well have changed the way she thinks about it. But you shouldn't backburner your own needs: you don't want to work at *your* job forever, either, and if your wife stays home that is going to require sacrifice on your part (and pressure on you, as well, since you will be the sole financial support of the family).
You need to discuss more options than "Mrs. cheapass goes back to work immediately at end of maternity leave and works continuously for the next eight years until we both retire" and "Mrs. cheapass stays home indefinitely and cheapass works an extra X years before retiring."
Some ideas for discussion/consideration:
If your wife did become a SAHP right now and never went back to work, how would that affect your retirement numbers? Is she the higher earner/lower earner/equal earner? If you guys had to live on only your salary indefinitely, how far would that push out your retirement? (Don't forget to consider your tax situation here, you'll keep a lot more of your money if your income is lower.)
How long does your wife think she would want to stay home with your kid? A couple of years? Until s/he's in school? How big of a hit will her career/earnings path take if she is out for that number of years (this varies wildly with different careers/industries)?
Is part-time work an option for your wife, and would she feel better about that than she would about full-time work?
Are there ways you could trim your lifestyle/expenses in other areas that would help offset some of the loss of her income?
Conversely, what can you do to help make being a working parent as easy as possible for your wife? (I'm sure you're great and helpful, but it sounds like your wife is very much the primary parent.)
Do you have parental leave available to you and how would you and your wife feel about *you* staying home with your baby for the first couple of months while she went back to work? Would it make more sense for you to stay home long-term and for your wife to work?
Does your wife value the idea of retiring at 40 as much as you do? How many more years of work is your wife willing to add on to her working life in order to be able to stay home with your kid now?
Can your wife *try* going back to work for, say, a month, and then you can re-evaluate?
Thank you for the very thoughtful response and reminding me that there are many, many options on the spectrum between the two extremes.
If your wife did become a SAHP right now and never went back to work, how would that affect your retirement numbers? Is she the higher earner/lower earner/equal earner? If you guys had to live on only your salary indefinitely, how far would that push out your retirement? (Don't forget to consider your tax situation here, you'll keep a lot more of your money if your income is lower.)
I haven't plugged that scenario into my spreadsheet yet, but based on the mental math and the impact on our monthly investment rate I think it would double my working career. And I really don't like wasting 5 days a week sitting in a cubicle. As far as the tax brackets go, we would drop from the 28% to 25% so I think our "savings" would be minimal.
How long does your wife think she would want to stay home with your kid? A couple of years? Until s/he's in school? How big of a hit will her career/earnings path take if she is out for that number of years (this varies wildly with different careers/industries)?
I believe it would be until the kid(s) go to school. Her earning potential would take a significant hit. The thing that really concerns me is the timing - we're at that "sweet spot" in our careers where we both earn a lot but we don't manage people. Considering the time-value of money and building our stash, the next 3-5 years are absolutely critical (will be at $1MM NW in 5 years). If she retired 5 years from now it would have a very negligible effect on our long-term wealth.
Is part-time work an option for your wife, and would she feel better about that than she would about full-time work?
I don't think it is possible with her current employer but perhaps another company or a consulting firm would offer part-time. Sounds like a good option to evaluate!
Are there ways you could trim your lifestyle/expenses in other areas that would help offset some of the loss of her income?
We could reduce our travel budget significantly, and forget about buying the midsize SUV we were considering in a couple of years when kid #2 comes around. I think both of these cutbacks would be very disappointing to Mrs. Cheapass.
Conversely, what can you do to help make being a working parent as easy as possible for your wife? (I'm sure you're great and helpful, but it sounds like your wife is very much the primary parent.)
Obviously I'm biased, but I do a pretty bang-up job. Come home from work exhausted and cook, do chores, play with the baby, etc. until bedtime. I rarely sit on the couch and veg out.
Do you have parental leave available to you and how would you and your wife feel about *you* staying home with your baby for the first couple of months while she went back to work? Would it make more sense for you to stay home long-term and for your wife to work?
I have no option for parental leave and I make approx. 20K more in total compensation. That's a maxed 401K.
Does your wife value the idea of retiring at 40 as much as you do? How many more years of work is your wife willing to add on to her working life in order to be able to stay home with your kid now?
She sounds on board and excited when we talk about it but I'm just not sure she's willing to go through the short-term sacrifice to achieve the long term goal. She has been really great about setting reasonable budgets for things and reducing spending in order to increase our savings/investment rate.
Can your wife *try* going back to work for, say, a month, and then you can re-evaluate?
This is probably our best avenue.
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I am another working mom and will agree with englishteacheralex, let her cry and then logically discuss all of the options and what they will mean for both of you. Her staying at home with the kid is great for her but it requires you to have to spend more time way from the kid because you will have to work longer. Or her staying at home will reduce her opportunities to have relationships that are not focused on kids.
I also heard really good advice when I was a new mom that I feel applies to many different things in life and it was to not quite on a bad day. In life that includes relationships, jobs, exercise, etc. For a new mom that might include things like breastfeeding (if you are), cloth diapering (if you are), sending the kiddo to daycare, etc.
We recently pulled our 2.5 year old out of daycare for dad to be a stay at home dad and I can tell you that was a really hard decision for us, mostly because you could see how much she was learning, growing, and enjoying daycare. She has fun with dad too but it is not the same as how she was growing at "school".
Another piece of advise I was given as a new mom was to not make any life changing decision in the first 1 if you don't have to. It will take several months for her hormones to adjust to the new normal so making a decision like staying at home when you still have a newborn and are not getting very much sleep could end up being a purely emotional one that you may or may not regret.
Other tips/advice, my husband did all the daycare drop-offs (after the 1st one) and that helped me tremendously. When she had her really clingy stage I did not have to leave her while she was crying because when I left she still had Daddy and for some reason did not not cry very often when he dropped her off.
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IMO, you might try to shoot for her staying home with both after the 2nd LO comes along. In my experience, 2 parents working full-time + taking care of 2 babies at the same time was hell on earth. (What I can remember of it, anyway.)
As far as the hormones are concerned, I can totally attest to that. After my last and final kid, I adamently wanted to have, like, 8 more. Some weird hormonal shit, there.
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I don't actual
Thank you for the very thoughtful response and reminding me that there are many, many options on the spectrum between the two extremes.
It was nice of you to reply to all my questions but I don't actually care... I was more saying you need to talk about these things with your wife!
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Lots of good replies. I'll reiterate to just stay open-minded, do a lot of listening, and don't make any permanent decisions for the next several months. I knew I never wanted to be a stay at home parent, and yet going back to my rewarding, high-paying, job with good work/life balance was really, really tough. It is crazy hard to leave your precious baby for the first time but it does get easier. Try different things out and stay supportive so you aren't adding additional stress onto your poor wife who is already feeling awful about leaving your baby.
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I just had my first in June and went back to work in September, so it's all fresh for me. I'll chime in on the MIL watching the baby part, because that is our situation too.
Financially, we couldn't afford for me to stay at home (thanks student loans) so I knew it wasn't an option. And before my son was born I was totally okay with that! And now that he is 6 months old I'm okay with it! But between ages 2-4 months I was NOT okay. I was hypercritical of my MIL (we are quite different but had a great relationship before the baby) and I was convinced that she was undermining me at every turn. The last week of my Maternity leave had more tears than the first week back at work (there were still tears, but less).
It's HARD having someone so close to you watch your baby all day. I'm not saying it's harder than putting them in daycare, but you hear many more stories about what the baby is doing during the day which reminds you even more that you are missing out.
My advice to you and your wife is this:
- Try go get her to go back for 12 weeks(same length as maternity leave). The first two weeks were terrible. But it got better and better. There are lots of hormones flying around and at 6 months post partum I'm starting to feel better but not completely out of the woods. See if you can get her to agree to go back to work until the baby is 6 months old and then you can reevaluate.
- Start setting boundaries and rules with your mom now (you need to have these conversations not your wife). The big issue we are having right now is that my MIL makes decisions about how to care for my son without asking me (change of formula/nap schedule/whatever). I feel disrespected because she didn't consult with me first. She thinks "what's the big deal I raised two boys of my own". You need to be okay with feeling like a middleman between two emotional women ;)
- if at all possible you need to do the drop offs in the morning. It will be way easier for her to pass the baby off o you in the morning than to the MIL who is grinning from ear to ear because she gets to play with HER baby all day.
Some of this sounds dramatic I know ;) I'm just trying to help complete the picture for you as a woman which just had a baby and whose MIL is watching the baby. Having family watch the baby is a tremendous blessing, but it takes lots of conversations and expectation setting.
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How is your budget if you have to pay for daycare?
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It was nice of you to reply to all my questions but I don't actually care... I was more saying you need to talk about these things with your wife!
Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to imply that you actually care. Was addressing each point mainly for clarity in case other posters can use that information for further suggestions.
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- if at all possible you need to do the drop offs in the morning. It will be way easier for her to pass the baby off o you in the morning than to the MIL who is grinning from ear to ear because she gets to play with HER baby all day.
Oh man, this! My MIL also watched our son for the first 9 months and I *know* she was so generous to be our nanny and even come to our house to do it, but that almost possessive zeal she had really really got under my skin, and I'm one of the most laid-back moms out there. It took me by surprise - and she did everything exactly how I asked, so it really was just about my emotional reaction to it. My husband, if he hadn't been away for work, probably wouldn't have had the same reaction I did. So yea, take over the morning tradeoff if at all possible, at least in the beginning.
Also, I think you need to have the discussion about what this decision means for you and the time you get to spend with your children a few years from now once you hit FIRE. Doubling your remaining working career is no small sacrifice on your part. Personally I think a good compromise would be her staying at home after the next kid comes along (assuming you want +1.)
Does she have the opportunity to work from home at all?
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It was nice of you to reply to all my questions but I don't actually care... I was more saying you need to talk about these things with your wife!
Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to imply that you actually care. Was addressing each point mainly for clarity in case other posters can use that information for further suggestions.
Sorry, that was too mean of a way to put it - I was trying to say is that the details don't matter to anyone but you and your wife. You can't figure this out without your wife's input and buy-in. All that matters what you and she think and feel about the various options, and sometimes it can be counterproductive to spend a lot of time thinking through a two-person problem on your own (this is totally a "do as I do, not as I say", I am terrible about this). Finding a solution that works for *both of you* is the only important thing, so you're going to need to actually talk about it openly and honestly (which I'm sure is incredibly hard when you're both exhausted from living with a newborn, but I guess there's really no other option).
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I went through this earlier this year. We were having a very hard time finding childcare and I was just generally freaking out, in tears daily, etc. I didn't know how I would deal with leaving my kid with someone else. We eventually found a nannyshare and I did a dry run leaving our kid there a couple of mornings before I actually went back to the office. I was amazingly "out of sight, out of mind". Like, as soon as he was at the nannyshare, I was "myself" (normal adult with no baby) again. I was totally not expecting it, and it really changed my feelings on going back to work (I still wasn't thrilled with it, but I was considerably less OMGTHEWORLDISENDING about it). Maybe the same for your wife? Perhaps you could set up a few mornings for grandma to babysit while your wife gets out for a walk, coffee, or something else fun and baby-free for herself? She may start to feel a lot differently then.
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Great ideas everyone, I really appreciate the input. Just trying to get as much information as possible (especially from the female perspective) before we have the discussion again.
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I'm surprised I'm the only SAHM posting in this thread, but I want to point out one thing: For some people,
staying with your baby is what life is for. Does that make sense? Snuggling with the baby is the goal. One of the high points of life.
So if your wife is one of those folks (like me), it doesn't make sense to give it up for something like early retirement. What would be the point of early retirement if she looks back and says, "It's nice to be able to stay at home now, but I wish I hadn't missed my time with my tiny baby." Because the time does go really fast, and before you know it you'll be looking at those miniscule socks and wondering how they ever fit on your kid.
That's why I proposed that your wife consider an unpaid break for a few months. In just a few months it might feel a lot easier to go back to work.
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Great ideas everyone, I really appreciate the input. Just trying to get as much information as possible (especially from the female perspective) before we have the discussion again.
Still curious on how daycare would effect your budget.
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Great ideas everyone, I really appreciate the input. Just trying to get as much information as possible (especially from the female perspective) before we have the discussion again.
Still curious on how daycare would effect your budget.
We'd be looking at ~$800/mo which is 40% of our taxable investment or 15% of our total investment incl. 401k's
I know there are tax deductible options but Grandma is not going to have a business ID # with the IRS so it will be after tax money.
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Great ideas everyone, I really appreciate the input. Just trying to get as much information as possible (especially from the female perspective) before we have the discussion again.
Still curious on how daycare would effect your budget.
We'd be looking at ~$800/mo which is 40% of our taxable investment or 15% of our total investment incl. 401k's
I know there are tax deductible options but Grandma is not going to have a business ID # with the IRS so it will be after tax money.
But there will be less emotional fallout if the baby went to daycare instead of to grandma's everyday. A nice way to keep everyone happy is often for the baby to go to daycare, but grandma watches baby when he/she is sick, or daycare is closed for some reason, or every Friday, or whatever.
I have no advice for you other than what PPs have mentioned about being really gentle and understanding with your wife. The desire to be with her baby is a primal reaction. Asking her to leave the baby is akin to asking you to never look at or be attracted to another women ever again. Probably pretty unrealistic.
Leaving my first to go back to work was one of the hardest things I've ever done; and I live in Canada and had a 6.5 month leave. My DH took the other 5.5 months and stayed home with the baby. She was with her own father, the man I loved and trusted enough to procreate with in the first place, and it was still awful and I wanted to quit everyday.
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I'm surprised I'm the only SAHM posting in this thread, but I want to point out one thing: For some people,
staying with your baby is what life is for. Does that make sense? Snuggling with the baby is the goal. One of the high points of life.
So if your wife is one of those folks (like me), it doesn't make sense to give it up for something like early retirement. What would be the point of early retirement if she looks back and says, "It's nice to be able to stay at home now, but I wish I hadn't missed my time with my tiny baby." Because the time does go really fast, and before you know it you'll be looking at those miniscule socks and wondering how they ever fit on your kid.
That's why I proposed that your wife consider an unpaid break for a few months. In just a few months it might feel a lot easier to go back to work.
You're not, but the reason I'm SAH right now has more to do with caring for my elderly mother than anything else.
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How outrageous that there are only 12 weeks of maternity leave available for your wife. It's awful that she is being put in a position where this is even an issue. I feel for your wife (and for you too!). 12 weeks is nowhere near long enough to recover from pregnancy / birth, let alone establish the routines needed for bubs. I'm sorry to hear that this is even an issue, and it feels like a really unfair scenario for new parents. If I were your wife, I'd be crying and tearful at the situation. Her employer has set an irrational expectation, and then she is expected to deal with the fallout - it's perfectly rational that she (and you) shouldn't want to leave your infant just to go to work only 3 months after bubs arrived.
Maybe work out how to deal with an irrational employer instead of pondering a "rational" conversation with your wife?
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I'm in Canada so enjoyed 2 year long mat leaves and went back to work afterwards. How are the job prospects in your wife's field? Could she take a year to 18 months off and then look for a new job, perhaps re-apply at current job? Why does the SAHM option have to be until school starts? It was hard to leave my 12 month old, it a lot easier than a 3 month old.
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Maybe work out how to deal with an irrational employer instead of pondering a "rational" conversation with your wife?
Welcome to the USA....12 weeks unpaid leave is pretty standard as its the minimum per federal law and not without its T&C's (only required for 50+ employee companies, 12 months tenure at company and dependent on hours worked in those 12 months) Certain states expand upon these though, and California is the only state with paternity leave that I know.
Sometimes I wish we were living at home in Ireland again with our impending arrival in March.
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One other thought...to me, it was always important to have a SAHP for kindergarten onwards. While a lot is going on with babies, I think it is fair to say that any qualified childcare provider can take good care of a baby. Personally, I actually think our daycare does a better job with our baby than I would as a SAHM--they read and sing songs all day, their space is set up 100% for childcare, and the staff all get to go home and sleep through the night each night, so they are more "on" with the babies than a sleep deprived parent is. However, once you start getting older, your kid is learning more than just how to move, talk, read, count, etc. S/he is also learning ethics, values, making friends who will influence him or her. In my opinion, it's much better for the parent to be around at those times because it's highly unlikely a child is going to learn the values YOU value from teachers or after school carers. So the more you can be around then, the better. So perhaps, in framing the issue to your wife, you can talk a bit about whether it's better to be a SAHP now vs. in 5 years or so. She might be more enthused about FIRE if it's in the context of "I can be a full-time parent like I want to be."
Also, it sounds like you are planning to pay grandma with post-tax money, but I am fairly certain a dependent care FSA can be used to pay family members who provide care for your child, so that might bear some looking into once you get past the emotional aspects and are working on costs.
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I wanted to go back to work, and my amazing employer allowed me to work only 3 days a week and gave me 18 weeks off (which I good for the USA).
It was still insanely hard.
That said, I'm absolutely glad I did it. But for the first month, I wanted to quit every day, frequently cried in the daycare parking lot, etc.
I'd look at it like this:
1. It's way easier for her to go back with 1 kud, then lTer on when there is a toddler and a newborn.
2. She needs to give it until baby is 6 months before quitting.
3. Agree that if she still wants to quit after 6 months, the budget for travel will be cut to X, the car budget will be cut to y, etc, and she has to be ok with that.
4. Really try to think about how in the grand scheme, your kids will probably want to be at preschool/daycare around 2.5-3, and once they are in regular school, childcare is a nightmare. It's truly better to work now if she can stand it.
I would suggest that you do anything and everything to help once she starts back. Make her life as easy as possible, including throwing money at housecleaning, meals, dry cleaning, etc. Make sure you or your mom is washing the bottles and pump parts at night, etc. Make sure you have a serious conversation with your mom about how hard this is for your wife, and how she needs to be the bigger person even if your wife is acting unreasonable. Maybe your mom would agree to bring the baby to your wife's office once a day or something like that.
I will echo the PP's who said that it gets much harder with the second. If she can power through 2-3 more years until #2 arrives, it will be worth it.
I personally quit after #2, and am now back to work half time as an engineer, with a pay cut. I stayed home until my youngest was in full day school. I job hunyed for over a year before getting an offer. It sucked. I'm glad to be working again, and the pay cut was worth stay home for 6 years, but I definitely knew I might never be able to go back.
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I'm surprised I'm the only SAHM posting in this thread, but I want to point out one thing: For some people,
staying with your baby is what life is for. Does that make sense? Snuggling with the baby is the goal. One of the high points of life.
So if your wife is one of those folks (like me), it doesn't make sense to give it up for something like early retirement. What would be the point of early retirement if she looks back and says, "It's nice to be able to stay at home now, but I wish I hadn't missed my time with my tiny baby." Because the time does go really fast, and before you know it you'll be looking at those miniscule socks and wondering how they ever fit on your kid.
That's why I proposed that your wife consider an unpaid break for a few months. In just a few months it might feel a lot easier to go back to work.
You're not, but the reason I'm SAH right now has more to do with caring for my elderly mother than anything else.
Sorry, it wasn't clear from your post that you were SAH, and I also see that little_brown_dog is or was SAH.
Anyway, I felt that the OP could do with more understanding of reasons to NOT do as he wishes. A majority of posts here support his wish for his wife to go back to work so they can retire early on schedule. Indeed, he asked for a "rational" discussion, and rationally speaking they will be financially better off and will have more time to spend with children later if she waits a few years to quit work.
However, how rational is having children at all, in terms of a FIRE goal? Not very. So I won't speak rationally, but will draw an emotional analogy: would you give up the first few months of falling in love with your spouse in order to retire 5 years early? No? Then how about just a few key dates or good times that you had in that first year? How many would you give up? What if ER could give you more good times later, with your older spouse?
I think that the better understanding that OP has of what his wife is feeling, the better he can help her make the best decision for both of them. This is all new to her, she's not sure of herself, and she could probably be persuaded to go against her heart, by being persuaded that her heart is merely hormones. Once OP really feels what a sacrifice this is, then he can weigh the costs correctly.
If it turns out that OP's wife can take a few months of unpaid leave without losing her job, I would definitely recommend that she do it. Because a few months make such a big difference in a baby's life, relative to the difference in getting FIRED a few months earlier vs. later. But if she will really have to lose her job to stay home with the baby now, then it seems like work 5 years then SAH for second child would be best.
Having a SAHP and delaying FIRE is not the end of the world, if you don't hate your job. Our way of life is frugal, but slower and less stressful than the alternative.
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How outrageous that there are only 12 weeks of maternity leave available for your wife. It's awful that she is being put in a position where this is even an issue. I feel for your wife (and for you too!). 12 weeks is nowhere near long enough to recover from pregnancy / birth, let alone establish the routines needed for bubs. I'm sorry to hear that this is even an issue, and it feels like a really unfair scenario for new parents. If I were your wife, I'd be crying and tearful at the situation. Her employer has set an irrational expectation, and then she is expected to deal with the fallout - it's perfectly rational that she (and you) shouldn't want to leave your infant just to go to work only 3 months after bubs arrived.
Maybe work out how to deal with an irrational employer instead of pondering a "rational" conversation with your wife?
Sadly, 12 weeks is a lot in the U.S. Some states offer ZERO. My state requires you to be given the time for the physical disability of pregnancy/birth. That amounts to about 6 weeks for a vaginal birth.
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How outrageous that there are only 12 weeks of maternity leave available for your wife.
Sadly, 12 weeks is a lot in the U.S. Some states offer ZERO.
In the United States, parents are free to negotiate as much maternity leave as they want from work -- it could be 12 weeks, or it could be 5 years. Or, if they can't reach an agreement, they are free to just leave anyway, since employees are generally free to leave their employers at any time, for any or no reason, in the United States. If a person can't afford a protracted break from work, then maybe they shouldn't create, adopt, or raise children until they can afford to do so. The choice to create, adopt, or raise children is generally (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/a-great-article-about-choices-why-poor-people-buy-tvs/msg1294216/#msg1294216) purely voluntary and within the control of the employee.
(Note: I express no view on the specific circumstances of the original poster.)
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We have three children all under the age of 5. The decision to have children doesn't fit well in the FIRE math, but I don't think people have children based upon financial equations. We decided that my wife would stay with our children until they reached school age. I am a high-earner so it still works for our FIRE goals. She also has been creative in producing an income from home and finding other areas to save. Staying-at-home vs going back to work is more than just a financial decision it is also a lifestyle decision and I think most of us have the goal of FIRE in order to have a certain lifestyle. If you wife is convinced delaying retirement for a few years is worth it, then that is a lifestyle choice that she is made and is perfectly rational.
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How outrageous that there are only 12 weeks of maternity leave available for your wife. It's awful that she is being put in a position where this is even an issue. I feel for your wife (and for you too!). 12 weeks is nowhere near long enough to recover from pregnancy / birth, let alone establish the routines needed for bubs. I'm sorry to hear that this is even an issue, and it feels like a really unfair scenario for new parents. If I were your wife, I'd be crying and tearful at the situation. Her employer has set an irrational expectation, and then she is expected to deal with the fallout - it's perfectly rational that she (and you) shouldn't want to leave your infant just to go to work only 3 months after bubs arrived.
Maybe work out how to deal with an irrational employer instead of pondering a "rational" conversation with your wife?
What is this rant?
its 3 months! figure out if you are going back to work or a SAHP. Someone else is having to cover your tail this whole time, but I guess if you are just some cog that can be easily replaced then this doesn't really matter.
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... Perhaps you could set up a few mornings for grandma to babysit while your wife gets out for a walk, coffee, or something else fun and baby-free for herself? She may start to feel a lot differently then.
I think something similar to this has been mentioned a couple times but I really, really agree with this. Even if your wife just leaves the baby with you for a couple hours to get out and be herself again before returning to work. This was huge for me. I was only gone for about 1 hour to go get my hair cut, DH and baby hung out and took a small nap at home, I stressed most of the time (what if they need this or that) but by the time I made it home I was so much closer to my more independent self that I was before the baby.
Maybe you could get her a manicure/pedicure/haircut/movie ticket/whatever for her to go enjoy by herself or with a friend. Tell her you want to have a little baby bonding time. Or ask her to leave the baby with grandma so she can meet you for lunch some weekday.
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As a guy:
1. I think the idea of having at least 1 stay at home parent is much preferable to day care. Perhaps preferable to having grand parents watch them. (If you aren't paying grand-parents you are taking advantage of them. Regardless of money: there is likely to be boundary issues. Seeing how possessive MIL is around other Grand-Children is enough for this realization. We haven't had ours yet.)
2. Expenses: This might be a 'silly' question to pose to someone that frequents the MMM forum but: How much 'fat' is in your budget? Is there any way you could reduce expenses? House? Car? Money being spent on baby? Etc? Can she provide value by being thrifty, etc with her time? **
It sounds like you make a fair income. By reducing expenses you should still be able to hit your target. As we know from MMM: Years to retirement is based on ~ percentage of savings, not income.
3. Income: Could she do consulting or part-time work in her occupation?
4. Parental Balance: If she is spending 100% of her time with the child, then she needs some breaks. See the advice above. Those breaks can begin with you, and transfer to your parents. (regardless of whether she is a stay at home mom, or going back to work).
5. Curious. How much did spouse enjoy work prior to having baby? Did she Love her job, or did she feel so-so / dislike her job and perhaps not working (+ having a new 'mission' in life) has confirmed/ increased those feelings?**
6. A lot of good advice in this thread. You may really want her to go back to work, and she may truly not want to or it may be her hormones. Regardless you really need to have some discussions about what you both want. Perhaps it's only fair that you both take some time off?***
*** Most people can't consider this, but spouse and I can pull this off even without a huge amount of savings: Combine a small amount of savings with very low cash outlays (I was raised thrifty and we are in a low cost of living area.) Assuming we had 1 years income saved up, that could provide 4-8 years living expenses (If saving 75-85% of income like some people here.)
** These are real questions posed to Op. He may choose to answer them here, or ignore them if not applicable.
Thanks for reading. I think the thread needed at least 1 good "face-punch" response, whether deserving/applicable or not.
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Lots of good advice here. I'll mention the points that spoke to me:
1. There's a spectrum. I'm a working mother and I *always* recommend to my friends "on the fence" that they go back to work. Because, it's easier to go back, and then quit - than it is to quit, and then go back. Right now with my friends I'd say we are at 50/50 who kept working and didn't.
2. Part time if you can swing it was GLORIOUS for me. It's not for everyone (some people feel like they are short-changing everyone). I had enough time at work to get stuff done (you have to be uber efficient at 30 hours a week), and plenty of time to take the kiddo to the park. Not all companies will go for this but *many* will agree to it if the option is to lose a good employee.
3. Someone mentioned how much harder it is with 2 kids. True that.
4. Someone else mentioned the school schedule with school aged kid. Yep, that blows too.
5. IS there an option to work from home? In my experience, you can't do that with a kid at home unless you have care also, but it's certainly less distracting for me to do that on occasion.
6. Definitely you need to do kid dropoff.
Anyway, I agree that it sucks that US only gets 12 weeks off, and often not paid. Yeah, "everyone is free to negotiate", oh except the people who are desperate and can't. But anyway, the outcomes for families and babies and finances when families get paid leave are better than when they don't. Especially when you are nursing - working and pumping SUCKS! (ha)
Not sure if this was helpful it all, but you kind of have to wing it. I get that you want to retire early, but you are probably underestimating how hard it is to have two full time working parents and a baby, then a toddler, then another kid. It is absolutely exhausting. No breaks, like ever. (I don't have family in town.) I see that you help a lot at home from when you get home until bed, but imagine that EVERYONE gets home at the same time, and all those chores have to be crammed into a few hours. It's not for the faint of heart.
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You have had lots of good responses and suggestions on finding a path forward for discussions and considerations with your wife. I am Canadian and had a year long mat leave (with fully pay) and for me, even the prospect of leaving a one year old in someone else's care made is sick and anxious. With both my children, I took an extra 6 months unpaid (because I have the best employeer ever) and then went back on a part time schedule for a year. For my own mental health, it was really the only option. It depends so much on your personality and feelings, I still cry in the car in the way to work sometimes because my kids are so awesome and I wish I could just hang out with them while they still think I am the sun. There is no amount of money for me that could ever compensate for rocking my kids to sleep at each nap, to watching them roll over or clap or stack a block for the first time. Babyhood is so short that i wanted to soak up as much of it as possible, even if it means I'll be working longer and our bank balance isn't where I would hope it would be. I hope that you can find a compromise that will allow both of you to get what you want/need.
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How outrageous that there are only 12 weeks of maternity leave available for your wife. It's awful that she is being put in a position where this is even an issue. I feel for your wife (and for you too!). 12 weeks is nowhere near long enough to recover from pregnancy / birth, let alone establish the routines needed for bubs. I'm sorry to hear that this is even an issue, and it feels like a really unfair scenario for new parents. If I were your wife, I'd be crying and tearful at the situation. Her employer has set an irrational expectation, and then she is expected to deal with the fallout - it's perfectly rational that she (and you) shouldn't want to leave your infant just to go to work only 3 months after bubs arrived.
Maybe work out how to deal with an irrational employer instead of pondering a "rational" conversation with your wife?
What is this rant?
its 3 months! figure out if you are going back to work or a SAHP. Someone else is having to cover your tail this whole time, but I guess if you are just some cog that can be easily replaced then this doesn't really matter.
This is broadly the difference between attitudes to parental leave in the US and many other countries.
It is not unusual in the UK for new parents to take a year off, so to me then the US policies of 6 or 12 weeks seem really brutal (it's the same when I read about how little vacation time you get compared to me).
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I think this is a topic that it is hard to be rational about for some folks. Reading a few rational (or heartless depending on your perspective) responses on this thread got my heartrate up and I wanted to go to battle.
I am the working spouse in my family. I have 3 kiddos and a stay-at-home husband. I'm a planner. We meticulously planned our pregnancies and planned for the very short maternity leave allowed by our finances and my company (6 weeks with baby #1, 12 weeks with babies #2 & #3.) We planned that my husband would be the stay at home parent. I planned exactly how and when I would pump milk upon returning to work. And everything has gone EXACTLY as planned every time. Perfect pregnancies, births, healthy babies, no problems exclusively breastfeeding, no problems with milk output. Looking back its rather amazing that things have gone so smoothly.
But you know what I didn't and couldn't plan for? My own emotional response.
My husband has about 1/5 the earning power that I do. There is no reasonable way that he could be the working parent without a major upheaval in our lives (selling our house and learning to navigate government assistance programs). I knew this before we got pregnant and I knew this after we had our children. Even so I still struggle with resentment. The resentment that I have because leaving my babies was far harder than I could have know and it blindsided me. I always found that by the time each child was 1 year of age it became emotionally easier for me to go to work. Now that our youngest is 3 years old I no longer hate the fact that I am working. But still the old anger and resentment sneak up on me and cause strife in our marriage. We've been to marriage counseling and we have a solid, loving relationship. Still, I sometimes find myself getting angry at him because it's HIS fault that I couldn't stay home with the kids. (I rationally know that it is not his fault, but I struggle keeping my emotions in check).
So be rational. But people aren't rational beings and keep that in mind. Don't let this poison your relationship if there is a possibility that it could. Only you and your wife can know that. And it might not be something you know until after the fact. Don't let it be your fault that she is working. She has to be fully onboard with whatever plan you both decide on.
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I think this is a topic that it is hard to be rational about for some folks. Reading a few rational (or heartless depending on your perspective) responses on this thread got my heartrate up and I wanted to go to battle.
I am the working spouse in my family. I have 3 kiddos and a stay-at-home husband. I'm a planner. We meticulously planned our pregnancies and planned for the very short maternity leave allowed by our finances and my company (6 weeks with baby #1, 12 weeks with babies #2 & #3.) We planned that my husband would be the stay at home parent. I planned exactly how and when I would pump milk upon returning to work. And everything has gone EXACTLY as planned every time. Perfect pregnancies, births, healthy babies, no problems exclusively breastfeeding, no problems with milk output. Looking back its rather amazing that things have gone so smoothly.
But you know what I didn't and couldn't plan for? My own emotional response.
My husband has about 1/5 the earning power that I do. There is no reasonable way that he could be the working parent without a major upheaval in our lives (selling our house and learning to navigate government assistance programs). I knew this before we got pregnant and I knew this after we had our children. Even so I still struggle with resentment. The resentment that I have because leaving my babies was far harder than I could have know and it blindsided me. I always found that by the time each child was 1 year of age it became emotionally easier for me to go to work. Now that our youngest is 3 years old I no longer hate the fact that I am working. But still the old anger and resentment sneak up on me and cause strife in our marriage. We've been to marriage counseling and we have a solid, loving relationship. Still, I sometimes find myself getting angry at him because it's HIS fault that I couldn't stay home with the kids. (I rationally know that it is not his fault, but I struggle keeping my emotions in check).
So be rational. But people aren't rational beings and keep that in mind. Don't let this poison your relationship if there is a possibility that it could. Only you and your wife can know that. And it might not be something you know until after the fact. Don't let it be your fault that she is working. She has to be fully onboard with whatever plan you both decide on.
Thanks SomedayStache, this is an incredibly valuable insight!
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Working mom (lawyer) here who was lucky enough to have 6 months of mostly paid maternity leave with our son. I agree with the person who said months 2-4 were the hardest to consider leaving baby. I absolutely NEEDED months 3-6 to truly enjoy the time at home with my son. The first three months were so hard, what with childbirth recovery, the demands of breastfeeding, dealing with newborn fussiness/unpredictability, and figuring out parenting in general. Months 3-6 were a completely different ballgame, at least for me/us - got to really enjoy being with my son, getting out and about together, meeting other new moms, etc. By month 6, I was excited to go back to work (mostly to have adult/cerebral activity to do) but still very much missed being with my son. But after the first week or so back at work, I was pretty happy and then by months 7-8 and later, I was really glad to not be at home all day with my son (fully understanding that some moms do love this - I just found the older baby phase pretty exhausting, especially once crawling/mobility hits). Right now (son is 2) I feel 100% satisfied with the amount of time I spent with him, between weekends and weekday evenings, and am really glad I went back to work when I did.
My own two cents would be for your wife to try to negotiate additional time off - at least one more month, and unpaid if necessary (but may be worth asking for paid depending on the context - worst that can happen is they say no, right?). And then ask to start back again at a reduced time arrangement, hopefully including at least one day a week of working from home (if her work is amenable to that). I suspect that the additional time may go a long way toward making her comfortable with leaving the baby and will take the edge off the idea of going back to work. Also fully agree that you guys should figure out a way for her to get "me time" away from baby starting ASAP.
I hear you on the cold hard numbers/tradeoffs associated with deciding to stay home longer -- but in the grand scheme of things this is a blip on the radar, and your wife feeling good about her decision about when to go back to work and how much time to spend with baby is far more important than the marginal income she'd give up by taking a little more time off (at least I think so!). Good luck and keep us posted!
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Thank you all for the insightful responses. We've made some progress and I think I talked her "off the ledge". We discussed balancing long-term goals with short-term preferences and how we BOTH (not just her) want to maximize our time with our kid(s) and not wasting away in a cubicle 5 days a week. We want to set ourselves up for long-term success and freedom to take long trips, pay for college, have great experiences that sometimes take money and/or time, etc.
We agreed that if we could both work another 3 years while trimming the fat from our budget (literally spending as little as possible), then we can be in a much better place with our investments at that time. Hopefully by then I would be making more and we can continue to save money so it will not be as much of a disaster to our finances as it would be if she quit tomorrow.
I brought up the possibility of extending her leave by a month, unpaid, to make the transition slightly easier. She immediately thought this was a great idea. We also talked about how her boss is okay with her working from home 2 days a week, and if she crams all of her work into the 3 days she has to work at the office then it can almost be like she is working part time which is pretty ideal.
We came to an understanding that although my parents aren't perfect humans and there will undoubtedly be some conflict here and there, they are coming from a good place and they genuinely love our granddaughter. They also understand that it's our way or the highway so they have to be okay with raising and disciplining her as we instruct.
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It feels like I'm on a different website reading some of the responses in this thread. It should be easy to raise a family on one person's salary when living a mustachian lifestyle. It's ultimately a personal choice, but I'd rather work a few extra years if it means my kids can have a parent at home with them before they are school aged.
We have a 2 year old daughter who will be joined by a baby brother in 3 months. We planned this out years in advance. We lived frugally, built up our savings and got the major purchases out of the way before having kids (forever house, vehicles to last for several years, wedding etc.). My wife went back to work after her first mat leave so that she'd get mat leave benefits for the second child (we're in Canada where mat leaves are 12 months with the government providing weekly benefits of ~$520/week for 50 weeks). After the 2nd baby she'll stay at home until our youngest is school aged when we'll re-evaluate where we're at. Goal is to be financially independent at 40 which I think is achievable.
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I brought up the possibility of extending her leave by a month, unpaid, to make the transition slightly easier. She immediately thought this was a great idea. We also talked about how her boss is okay with her working from home 2 days a week, and if she crams all of her work into the 3 days she has to work at the office then it can almost be like she is working part time which is pretty ideal.
This sounds really positive.
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We came to an understanding that although my parents aren't perfect humans and there will undoubtedly be some conflict here and there, they are coming from a good place and they genuinely love our granddaughter. They also understand that it's our way or the highway so they have to be okay with raising and disciplining her as we instruct.
Careful here. You need them more than they need you. They are doing you the favour with providing childcare.
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I brought up the possibility of extending her leave by a month, unpaid, to make the transition slightly easier. She immediately thought this was a great idea. We also talked about how her boss is okay with her working from home 2 days a week, and if she crams all of her work into the 3 days she has to work at the office then it can almost be like she is working part time which is pretty ideal.
This sounds really positive.
I agree, this sounds like a great middle-ground solution. As a new mom myself, I know she must have felt great relief when you brought this up. Hopefully she can get the extra time off!
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I haven't plugged that scenario into my spreadsheet yet, but based on the mental math and the impact on our monthly investment rate I think it would double my working career. And I really don't like wasting 5 days a week sitting in a cubicle. As far as the tax brackets go, we would drop from the 28% to 25% so I think our "savings" would be minimal.
Minimal? I'd be curious to see the numbers based on your respective incomes. This really isn't the right approach to analyzing the financials of this.
Your wife's income is mostly taxed at least at 35% (25-28% federal, FICA, and this doesn't include whatever state or even city income taxes you pay, so probably closer to 40-45%). This might be effectively higher depending on what your tax credits are (for example, the child tax credit starts phasing out at 110k AGI). Or what her commuting costs are.
I don't know what her income is, her work related costs are, or what daycare will cost, but it would be wise to really think through the full impact. It's not as simple as saying "well our marginal rate goes from 28 to 25 so not really a big deal."
Your marginal tax rate is not the impact you should be considering. You should be considering the overall financial implication that this decision would have.
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I don't know what her income is, her work related costs are, or what daycare will cost, but it would be wise to really think through the full impact. It's not as simple as saying "well our marginal rate goes from 28 to 25 so not really a big deal."
Your marginal tax rate is not the impact you should be considering. You should be considering the overall financial implication that this decision would have.
I've seen several couples who have found substantial savings when one parent stayed home. There is less available for MMM folk (fewer cleaning and nanny services or second cars to cut), but still worth doing the calculations. Our tax works differently as we don't file as couples, I'd have thought that your MFJ and MFS tax thing means you'd have more available.
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You are her partner.
It is not your job to tell her how to feel, or to determine by yourself the best plan for your future, and then "rationally" explain it to her.
It is your job to support her as an equal, and a partner.
"Talking her off the ledge" is a warped way to put what appears to me to be substituting your wants (her to keep working so you can retire early) for hers (raising the child).
Definitely communicate. All the time, non-stop.
But that doesn't mean you just explaining things to her. It means listening, and problem solving together.
Throughout this thread your responses have all been why you need to get her back to work, and how you can do that.
I would suggest that your whole approach to this is not conductive to a healthy relationship.
There are more important things then FIRE. If you to decide together that the best thing is for her to keep working, okay. But you going into that conversation with the goal of convincing her of that is not fair to her (or your relationship, or possibly your child).
Don't misinterpret me: I'm not saying I think she should stay home. I don't know nearly enough to have a thought on that.
What I'm saying is that your deciding on your own that she should go back, that her wanting to stay is just "emotional" whereas you are being "rational," that you have to "talk her off a ledge," etc. is all quite (many terms could go here.. arrogant, selfish, egotistical, short-sighted, disrespectful, etc.). It's the wrong way to approach the situation.
I don't think you're a bad person, I just don't think you're considering what your wife wants... you are just thinking about how to convince her off what YOU want.
As evidenced by your questions here. Not asking other moms how they've felt in similar circumstances to understand your wife better, but asking how you can convince her.
I know my post will raise immediate hackles/defenses.
You don't need to respond, or defend yourself. I'm just a stranger on the internet. Better not to reply to me.
But I hope you pause your immediate reaction, take a break, and revisit some of these ideas, maybe in a few days. Think: How can you support your wife?
That's the goal, much more than quickest FIRE.
Good luck!
I brought up the possibility of extending her leave by a month, unpaid, to make the transition slightly easier. She immediately thought this was a great idea. We also talked about how her boss is okay with her working from home 2 days a week, and if she crams all of her work into the 3 days she has to work at the office then it can almost be like she is working part time which is pretty ideal.
This is great! Nice that her company is so supportive.
Might be a good way to help work something you both are happy with.
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I don't know what her income is, her work related costs are, or what daycare will cost, but it would be wise to really think through the full impact. It's not as simple as saying "well our marginal rate goes from 28 to 25 so not really a big deal."
Your marginal tax rate is not the impact you should be considering. You should be considering the overall financial implication that this decision would have.
I've seen several couples who have found substantial savings when one parent stayed home. There is less available for MMM folk (fewer cleaning and nanny services or second cars to cut), but still worth doing the calculations. Our tax works differently as we don't file as couples, I'd have thought that your MFJ and MFS tax thing means you'd have more available.
You have to do the math before you start worrying about whether or not she's rational. Just a guess here, but if your tax rate isn't going down by much, that must mean her income is not much? Really add it up!
But also, glad to hear the results of the last chat with her. I'd vote for 3 more months unpaid.
And to everyone talking about what's "rational"...... if it's so hard for everyone to leave their babies, it could be because it's not rational. Is it rational to go against your biology? Would it be more rational for gay people to marry straight, since societal acceptance has so many implications for your long-term earning power? Unless you're Pence, no one is going to recommend that.
The reason it's hard for moms to leave their babies is because there's a rational biological reason for moms to be with their babies.
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Lots of good advice here. My "kids" are now 28 and 25. At two months, it would have been very difficult for me to go back to work emotionally and physically. At two months, I was still getting up at night to nurse. Even bottle feeding, there are still going to be night wakings at this age. With #1, I quit because my employer would not let me work part time. At 15 months, I got a 24 hour a week job which was perfect. #2, I went back part time at 5 months. I would have like more, but it worked out.
We had always been frugal, so even though my leaves were mostly unpaid, we did okay. I went back to full time when #2 was a sophomore in high school.
Also, even though daycare was expensive, we did not think of it as coming from my salary- it came from our combined incomes. These are our children and our responsibility- not just Mom's.
One more think about leaves. I am in a leadership development program- I will be gone from my position for FIVE months on a developmental assignment- because the training I will get will be valuable for my employer. People are on military leave for years- because it is valuable to society. Raising children is valuable to society.
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Interesting comments about how this is about how she feels and how it is her decision. I was going off of the assumption that they are partners in this, meaning both of the parents feelings matter and that they both make this decision together.
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Interesting comments about how this is about how she feels and how it is her decision. I was going off of the assumption that they are partners in this, meaning both of the parents feelings matter and that they both make this decision together.
I'm assuming this is addressing my reply (bottom of the previous page). Does what he's said match your impression? Am I just reading it wrong? Because it sure didn't seem to me that his approach was one of equal partnership where both people's feelings matter.
But I'm curious of a third party reading.
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Interesting comments about how this is about how she feels and how it is her decision. I was going off of the assumption that they are partners in this, meaning both of the parents feelings matter and that they both make this decision together.
I'm assuming this is addressing my reply (bottom of the previous page). Does what he's said match your impression? Am I just reading it wrong? Because it sure didn't seem to me that his approach was one of equal partnership where both people's feelings matter.
But I'm curious of a third party reading.
Not just yours. Several posts here. It's not what I would have expected from this forum. Another financial forum of which I am a member (which includes a large % of working mothers) is much more equality-minded.
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Interesting comments about how this is about how she feels and how it is her decision. I was going off of the assumption that they are partners in this, meaning both of the parents feelings matter and that they both make this decision together.
I'm assuming this is addressing my reply (bottom of the previous page). Does what he's said match your impression? Am I just reading it wrong? Because it sure didn't seem to me that his approach was one of equal partnership where both people's feelings matter.
But I'm curious of a third party reading.
Looking at just the first post, I can see how OP comes off as just wanting to bring his wife around to his way of thinking, but his subsequent posts suggested to me that he was open to alternatives (exploring unpaid time off or wife looking in PT work opportunities), and making an effort to ease his wife's concerns about childcare by discussing being firm with his parents about how they care for the baby. He also mentioned having done at least some rough calculations on how a SAHP would impact their tax rate, which to me conveyed that he's at least a little open to his wife becoming a SAHM if that's really what she wants.
To be fair to OP, I imagine it's a pretty big deal to process your wife suddenly going from planning to go back to work and FIRE with you in the next few years to being distraught at the idea. There are tons of threads on here about "converting" your spouse to a frugal lifestyle and FIRE and the advice is always to be patient, not expect too much at once, realize you can't force people to change, etc. In some ways OP's wife was doing the opposite of that, by experiencing a rapid change in the kind of life she wanted.
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Interesting comments about how this is about how she feels and how it is her decision. I was going off of the assumption that they are partners in this, meaning both of the parents feelings matter and that they both make this decision together.
We must be reading different comments? Most of the comments that I read appear to come from mothers, who have been there and given birth, and totally understand the emotional state that you are in because: hormones. Those are some crazy hormones.
Each one that I read laid out ways to try and understand the hormones, let her cry, and then try and approach the discussion rationally - with the idea that likely there's going to be a "middle ground" - in other words - I don't recall getting the impression that anyone was saying "let her quit" (excepting the people who think there should always be a parent at home - but that's more a philosophical thing), or "make her go back to work".
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Looking at just the first post, I can see how OP comes off as just wanting to bring his wife around to his way of thinking, but his subsequent posts suggested to me that he was open to alternatives (exploring unpaid time off or wife looking in PT work opportunities), and making an effort to ease his wife's concerns about childcare by discussing being firm with his parents about how they care for the baby. He also mentioned having done at least some rough calculations on how a SAHP would impact their tax rate, which to me conveyed that he's at least a little open to his wife becoming a SAHM if that's really what she wants.
To be fair to OP, I imagine it's a pretty big deal to process your wife suddenly going from planning to go back to work and FIRE with you in the next few years to being distraught at the idea. There are tons of threads on here about "converting" your spouse to a frugal lifestyle and FIRE and the advice is always to be patient, not expect too much at once, realize you can't force people to change, etc. In some ways OP's wife was doing the opposite of that, by experiencing a rapid change in the kind of life she wanted.
This is my read also, I was concerned that the first post sounded like OP thought mom was being irrational and that he was trying to find logical arguments to overrule her feelings. The later posts sounded much more like part of a team trying to find a solution that works for them both.
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I don't know how you as the spouse can approach this, but if I (a new mom) were speaking to your wife, I would encourage her to hold off on making a decision until she at least tries to go back to work. Why? I was hysterical about the thought of going back to work (which I did when my baby was 3-months-old). For the two weeks leading up to going back to work I cried several times per day just imagining how difficult it would be. When I finally went back to work, I found that it was not nearly as difficult as what I imagined in my head. In fact, it was kind of...nice. So if I met your wife, I'd encourage her to hold off on a decision until she's been back for a few weeks. But again, I'm not sure how you as the spouse can convey that to her!
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For us, it was almost a "no brainer." My wife was a pre-school teacher, and the delta between her salary and day care costs was pretty close to zero, after taxes. After removing her salary from the income portion of our spreadsheet, our FI year was pushed out a little under two years. I don't mind working an extra two years to provide the very best childcare for my children and my wife couldn't be happier doing so. She might go back to working when all kids are in school, but I like to think any future income she earns is like social security: pure gravy.
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One thing I didn't expect with kids is just how damn often they get sick. We're taking at least every other week, every winter, for YEARS. Then there's doctor visits, days off, and all sorts of events that mean one of you has to stay home that day. If you have kids in daycare and both of you are working, one of you will have to take a serious career hit, no getting around it.
My husband has about 1/5 the earning power that I do. There is no reasonable way that he could be the working parent without a major upheaval in our lives (selling our house and learning to navigate government assistance programs). I knew this before we got pregnant and I knew this after we had our children. Even so I still struggle with resentment. The resentment that I have because leaving my babies was far harder than I could have know and it blindsided me. I always found that by the time each child was 1 year of age it became emotionally easier for me to go to work. Now that our youngest is 3 years old I no longer hate the fact that I am working. But still the old anger and resentment sneak up on me and cause strife in our marriage. We've been to marriage counseling and we have a solid, loving relationship. Still, I sometimes find myself getting angry at him because it's HIS fault that I couldn't stay home with the kids. (I rationally know that it is not his fault, but I struggle keeping my emotions in check).
Heh. Grass is always greener, I guess. I'm the SAHM just because, as in your situation, I was the one making a fraction of the income. And I resent my husband for being able to work.
Partially, I resent him for being around adults all day when I'm stuck with kids, but mostly, I resent that he gets to accomplish things, and make things, and above all else, he gets to be important. I sure don't feel important when I spend all day cleaning up messes that will be back within 48 hours! The work he does (and I'm sure the work you do) matters to tons and tons of people, while all my work goes completely unnoticed by the only other humans around: my kids. And I only have two of them! I think three would break me! I miss the office, I miss challenges, I miss being the resident expert and being congratulated, thanked, and compensated for doing things right.
My point is, staying at home might be a good choice for your family, but I don't think it's the easier or more rewarding option for everyone.
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I just know that for us, staying home hurt us financially in the long run.
worked with kid #1; saved my income minus childcare costs for two years.
Then quit after kid #2. Then had #3, bought a different house, had to buy a bigger vehicle. Then was surprised with #4 several years later. blessing, but a surprise.
going back to work all these years later is sort of a joke. i've had no retirement funds, my college skill set is so outdated, and i have the "old" factor working against me. I've found a part-time job at a school that feels likes its almost volunteer position.
However, i would not trade those years for anything. I have had so many years of being involved in my kids lives and running our household and family. We've given our kids so many opportunities to develop their talents and interests . . . all at a co$t, of course, but it's worth it to us. We've received joy from watching our kids participate in their activities, playing music, participating in summer swim team, camping out, etc. etc. We've put our finances into our family with experiences, frugal trips, lessons and time.
But, again, our retirement and college savings took a huge hit. If i could do it over, i'd have my kids closer together instead of 4 in 9 years. I'd take a few classes at the local community college to stay updated. I'd force ourselves to save more for college. I'd look for work a few years earlier than waiting till my youngest was 9. But I'd never trade those years being at home. (Ok, well unless i had worked a lucrative job before hand! my earning potential was definitely not as high as my spouse's.)
good luck making decisions. support her!
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But, again, our retirement and college savings took a huge hit. If i could do it over, i'd have my kids closer together instead of 4 in 9 years.
Amber but don't you feel like you were able to recoup at least a little sleep/sanity by spacing them out as you did? I've had so many friends do the 18-20 months apart spacing and it seems to be incredibly tough on the couple because they're never really able to get recovered from baby #1 by the time baby #2 comes along.
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I had 3 kids in 7 years and the spacing was nice, I stayed home until the youngest went to school f.t. and then I started college and went on to have a great career. I have never regretted staying home with my kids. It is time you can never get back. WE made it work by being frugal. There are more important things then $ and yes it needs to be a joint decision and not one person bullying the other. In addition, when my Mom watched my kids I did not tell her how to do everything. I trusted her to have my kids best interests at heart. if I was watching grandkids and the parents were trying to micromanage me I would pass.
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Closer to Free -- about the spacing of kids --- yes, there was time to "regroup" and truly enjoy the baby-hood of each kid. It's TOUGH to have kids close together!! Just financially - with surprise #4, we had already moved on to that no-baby supplies stage, and had to start all over. With supplies, staying home longer, suites at hotels, and going slightly crazy juggling so many activities, schools & ages. It's all good though. :) truly.
my neighbor has her PhD and is a professor now after staying home for several years. She told me how growing up and through college she really believed she could "have it all and do it all and be a superwoman." Once she started working full time with her 3 kids, she said she had no idea how hard it would be; and superwoman is a myth.
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Closer to Free -- about the spacing of kids --- yes, there was time to "regroup" and truly enjoy the baby-hood of each kid. It's TOUGH to have kids close together!! Just financially - with surprise #4, we had already moved on to that no-baby supplies stage, and had to start all over. With supplies, staying home longer, suites at hotels, and going slightly crazy juggling so many activities, schools & ages. It's all good though. :) truly.
my neighbor has her PhD and is a professor now after staying home for several years. She told me how growing up and through college she really believed she could "have it all and do it all and be a superwoman." Once she started working full time with her 3 kids, she said she had no idea how hard it would be; and superwoman is a myth.
Superwoman is less of a myth when there is a superdad too. No one can do it all. If to partners parent equally though, each take time off from work when a kid is sick, each grocery shop and each cook dinners for example, it is a lot easier.
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Superwoman is less of a myth when there is a superdad too. No one can do it all. If to partners parent equally though, each take time off from work when a kid is sick, each grocery shop and each cook dinners for example, it is a lot easier.
Truth. I'm so glad my husband is a (more than equal) co-parent and honestly don't know how I'd make it through parenthood with any other arrangement. Huge props to all the single parents out there especially.
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My wife and I went through exactly the OP's scenario just over 2 years ago. She went back to work after many tears, discussions, etc. Here's one possible view from your future!
We got pregnant during her first year of a master's degree program, which was required for her new, high-paying job. It was absolute hell, but we earned that damn degree (cost ~25k) and she finished 6 months after giving birth.
At that point, with MS in hand and a rare high paying job in pocket, she desperately wanted to be a SAHM. I did the math; we would be cashflow negative. A one-year sabbatical that would burn some savings was unacceptable to her; she wanted to SAHM for many years or not at all. Downsizing and drastic budget cutting were also unacceptable. Eventually, pointing at the math. I said "this is the option" and she accused me of crushing her dreams.
Work and life went on, and she kept working, accepting the math - at least on the surface.
However, long term outcomes were a mix of good and bad:
-Financially, we thrived. On course to FIRE in a few years. Maxing all retirement contributions. Rocking our careers.
-Our 2.5 year old daughter, who has been in preschool for all but the first 3 mos of her life, is hitting verbal, social, and emotional milestones of a 3-4 year old. This is consistent with research on the benefits of early childhood education. No unusual behavioral or attachment issues.
-Our marriage is... rocky. The stress of parenthood and my wife's dysfunctional work environment are certainly factors, but I suspect some resentment lingers because I "wouldn't let her" SAHM (not true, I only did the math and made a plan, which she rejected). We're in counseling. We also cannot discuss FIRE any longer.
I'm not sure how we could have executed the past couple years better. But if I could send advice back 3 years, I'd say to remain agnostic on the topic until a SAHM plan has been fully crafted. Her perception that I was putting money ahead of our daughter emerged when I expressed an opinion during the early exploratory discussions.
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Being a working mom vs SAHM is such a personal decision. What may seem rational to one person may be completely irrational to another person. Some women can't imaging going back to work, while others can't imagine not working. I think if she is willing it would be reasonable and desirable to eventually go back for a while and see how it feels. Part time work or additional unpaid leave also seem like great options.
From personal experience I can tell you our lives improved significantly when my wife made the decision to retire change jobs and become a SAHM. After taxes, child care, commuting costs, money saved on less outsourcing, having more time to maximize efficiency, etc. it really was not a big financial hit - and she was making pretty decent money (physician). I gave her my opinion on what I thought she should do, but at the end of the day it was her call, and I would be 100% supportive of her decision. It sounds like you guys will figure something out that works for you. Good luck!
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My wife and I went through exactly the OP's scenario just over 2 years ago. She went back to work after many tears, discussions, etc. Here's one possible view from your future!
We got pregnant during her first year of a master's degree program, which was required for her new, high-paying job. It was absolute hell, but we earned that damn degree (cost ~25k) and she finished 6 months after giving birth.
At that point, with MS in hand and a rare high paying job in pocket, she desperately wanted to be a SAHM. I did the math; we would be cashflow negative. A one-year sabbatical that would burn some savings was unacceptable to her; she wanted to SAHM for many years or not at all. Downsizing and drastic budget cutting were also unacceptable. Eventually, pointing at the math. I said "this is the option" and she accused me of crushing her dreams.
Work and life went on, and she kept working, accepting the math - at least on the surface.
However, long term outcomes were a mix of good and bad:
-Financially, we thrived. On course to FIRE in a few years. Maxing all retirement contributions. Rocking our careers.
-Our 2.5 year old daughter, who has been in preschool for all but the first 3 mos of her life, is hitting verbal, social, and emotional milestones of a 3-4 year old. This is consistent with research on the benefits of early childhood education. No unusual behavioral or attachment issues.
-Our marriage is... rocky. The stress of parenthood and my wife's dysfunctional work environment are certainly factors, but I suspect some resentment lingers because I "wouldn't let her" SAHM (not true, I only did the math and made a plan, which she rejected). We're in counseling. We also cannot discuss FIRE any longer.
I'm not sure how we could have executed the past couple years better. But if I could send advice back 3 years, I'd say to remain agnostic on the topic until a SAHM plan has been fully crafted. Her perception that I was putting money ahead of our daughter emerged when I expressed an opinion during the early exploratory discussions.
From my perspective, I sort of side with your wife, just due to the bolded part. I don't see how you couldn't make a plan work for he to SAH if her just working the past 2.5 years now puts you "a few years" from FIRE.
Those are such disparate outcomes, I have a hard time believing there was no middle ground.
And why can't she become SAH now? If her job is still dysfunctional, and she still dislikes it, what is forcing her to stay, besides your idea of "FIRE ASAP"?
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My wife and I went through exactly the OP's scenario just over 2 years ago. She went back to work after many tears, discussions, etc. Here's one possible view from your future!
We got pregnant during her first year of a master's degree program, which was required for her new, high-paying job. It was absolute hell, but we earned that damn degree (cost ~25k) and she finished 6 months after giving birth.
At that point, with MS in hand and a rare high paying job in pocket, she desperately wanted to be a SAHM. I did the math; we would be cashflow negative. A one-year sabbatical that would burn some savings was unacceptable to her; she wanted to SAHM for many years or not at all. Downsizing and drastic budget cutting were also unacceptable. Eventually, pointing at the math. I said "this is the option" and she accused me of crushing her dreams.
Work and life went on, and she kept working, accepting the math - at least on the surface.
However, long term outcomes were a mix of good and bad:
-Financially, we thrived. On course to FIRE in a few years. Maxing all retirement contributions. Rocking our careers.
-Our 2.5 year old daughter, who has been in preschool for all but the first 3 mos of her life, is hitting verbal, social, and emotional milestones of a 3-4 year old. This is consistent with research on the benefits of early childhood education. No unusual behavioral or attachment issues.
-Our marriage is... rocky. The stress of parenthood and my wife's dysfunctional work environment are certainly factors, but I suspect some resentment lingers because I "wouldn't let her" SAHM (not true, I only did the math and made a plan, which she rejected). We're in counseling. We also cannot discuss FIRE any longer.
I'm not sure how we could have executed the past couple years better. But if I could send advice back 3 years, I'd say to remain agnostic on the topic until a SAHM plan has been fully crafted. Her perception that I was putting money ahead of our daughter emerged when I expressed an opinion during the early exploratory discussions.
From my perspective, I sort of side with your wife, just due to the bolded part. I don't see how you couldn't make a plan work for he to SAH if her just working the past 2.5 years now puts you "a few years" from FIRE.
Those are such disparate outcomes, I have a hard time believing there was no middle ground.
And why can't she become SAH now? If her job is still dysfunctional, and she still dislikes it, what is forcing her to stay, besides your idea of "FIRE ASAP"?
The math said the SAHM would put us significantly cash flow negative at our current rates of spending. She makes more than I do. I offered the following solutions:
-SAHM for one year. We burn some savings and get back on board later. Unacceptablr because she did not want to leave her baby in a year either.
-Dramatic spending changes for permanent SAHM. Sell the 2700sf house and buy something half the cost. Consider going down to one car. Stop eating at restaurants all together. Drop annual spending from the 60k's to the 30-40k's. Unacceptable, and I'm not sure why.
Neither option was acceptable in her opinion, and actually planning to slowly go broke (SAHM with current spending) was a no-go in my opinion. So, after making it binary, she decided working was inevitable.
Also, I've begged her to start looking for another job, even with a pay cut. She seems to think the job itself is inevitable.
Yep, we belong in counseling! :)
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The math said the SAHM would put us significantly cash flow negative at our current rates of spending. She makes more than I do. I offered the following solutions:
-SAHM for one year. We burn some savings and get back on board later. Unacceptablr because she did not want to leave her baby in a year either.
-Dramatic spending changes for permanent SAHM. Sell the 2700sf house and buy something half the cost. Consider going down to one car. Stop eating at restaurants all together. Drop annual spending from the 60k's to the 30-40k's. Unacceptable, and I'm not sure why.
Neither option was acceptable in her opinion, and actually planning to slowly go broke (SAHM with current spending) was a no-go in my opinion. So, after making it binary, she decided working was inevitable.
Also, I've begged her to start looking for another job, even with a pay cut. She seems to think the job itself is inevitable.
Yep, we belong in counseling! :)
Quite a few similarities to my situation. We are also in about the same housing, vehicle and spending situation as you are. You presented several options with math to back them up, but it seems that often times emotion trumps logic. This strong emotional power is also why people bury themselves in debt and don't stop wasting money. Unfortunately, emotions can't stop you from "slowly going broke" as you describe.
According to my calculations, every year my wife continues working full-time it cuts 2.5 years off my working career. I'm not exactly working my "dream job" so is it selfish of me to not want to make that trade?
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3 kids here. With kids 1 and 2, my job gave me 6 months of leave (only 6 weeks paid). There was no way I could have returned to work at 3 months, at least not happily, and especially without ruining nursing.
Is your wife breastfeeding? If so, you need to understand that returning to work and pumping 3 times/day at work to keep up her supply is seriously hard. And many women lose their supply when they return to work.
By 6 mo, it's not quite so hard. The baby is starting solids and starting to wean. It's easier to keep your supply up and baby will be more open to bottles, especially from other people. I was lucky that my workplace had a hospital grade pump and a pumping room for many of us moms. I have probably spent 18 months of my life pumping in a closet at work.
I do not remember months 6-~18 with my youngest two. I was working full-time and trying to keep up everything else. My kids were shit sleepers and when they went into daycare, they were always sick and got us sick. One year when the youngest was ~9 mo, between Labor Day and Memorial day (Sept to next May) there was not a single day, not one, that at least one of us was sick. There were many times I was so sleep deprived that I nearly had an accident.
So, when your wife says she's having trouble wanting to go back to work at 3 mo postpartum, I TOTALLY get it. Continue investigating other possibilities. See if you can extend her leave another 3 mo, not just 1. And when she returns, look into hiring a maid and anything else you can afford to make it so her time at home with your baby is spent with the baby rather than doing stupid chores.
With #3, I had quit my job to work full-time for our business. I gave birth on Sunday and was back to work the next day. Even so, because it was our business, I was able to sleep in every day and never got sleep deprived and sick like I did with the first two. By the time the baby was walking, I was ready for her to go to daycare. We couldn't afford it for another 2 years but, nonetheless, I was ready for it.
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The math said the SAHM would put us significantly cash flow negative at our current rates of spending. She makes more than I do. I offered the following solutions:
-SAHM for one year. We burn some savings and get back on board later. Unacceptablr because she did not want to leave her baby in a year either.
-Dramatic spending changes for permanent SAHM. Sell the 2700sf house and buy something half the cost. Consider going down to one car. Stop eating at restaurants all together. Drop annual spending from the 60k's to the 30-40k's. Unacceptable, and I'm not sure why.
Neither option was acceptable in her opinion, and actually planning to slowly go broke (SAHM with current spending) was a no-go in my opinion. So, after making it binary, she decided working was inevitable.
Also, I've begged her to start looking for another job, even with a pay cut. She seems to think the job itself is inevitable.
Yep, we belong in counseling! :)
Quite a few similarities to my situation. We are also in about the same housing, vehicle and spending situation as you are. You presented several options with math to back them up, but it seems that often times emotion trumps logic. This strong emotional power is also why people bury themselves in debt and don't stop wasting money. Unfortunately, emotions can't stop you from "slowly going broke" as you describe.
According to my calculations, every year my wife continues working full-time it cuts 2.5 years off my working career. I'm not exactly working my "dream job" so is it selfish of me to not want to make that trade?
There are 2 main landmines you must not step on.
One is referring to emotions or hormones, or any contrast between these urges and rationality. If you even touch that subject, you will be labeled an uncaring bully.
The second is referring to options as a win for one of you and a loss for the other. Then, if she does go back to work, it will be because you "won" what you wanted at the expense of her life purpose, meaning, and dream. This is why my wife and I can no longer even discuss financial goals; it brings up the loss she feels about that first year.
As you can see, these emotions (of which you cannot speak) change the rules of direct communication, and now you have to be subtle as the only one who can guide the family in a financially responsible direction.
The most effective approach, I say in hindsight and after committing all the damage I did, was to build the budgets, put the radical options on the table in writing, and describing which choices you are and are not in favor of (e.g. I drew the line at burning savings for more than 1 year, and built 2 options around that which still involved SAHMing).
Don't mention early retirement dreams, or those dreams get the blame for all the dissatisfaction and then you might never be on the same page again.
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One more note... breastfeeding rocks, but it's harder than a dude like me would think. Consider getting a lactaction consultant at the first sign of trouble, or before. Yes, that's a real profession, and yes they can solve problems you aren't even aware of.
Also, order some Lecitin (derived from soy, sunflower, etc) in bulk. It prevents mastitis and works wonders. This from a guy who considers the supplement industry to be one step above the tobacco industry in terms of legitimacy.
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One is referring to emotions or hormones, or any contrast between these urges and rationality. If you even touch that subject, you will be labeled an uncaring bully.
I hate to stick my oar into a productive and valuable conversation, but I'd like to suggest the possibility that the desire to retire early is no more rational than the desire to stop working outside of the home in order to care for a dependent. I mean, it is a conflict between desires. Why should your desire to spend 2.5 years fishing (or whatever) be more rational than wife's desire to spend 1 year changing diapers?
Furthermore, the reason why some parents choose to stay at home with their kids can't all be dismissed as "hormones". It's generally agreed that babies do best with a stable primary caregiver (do a search on "attachment theory" and "attachment disorder"). Now OP's situation is better than most since he has extended family ready and willing to care for the baby, but still, his wife's take is probably that she wants to stay home for the baby's sake, not her own sake.
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The math said the SAHM would put us significantly cash flow negative at our current rates of spending. She makes more than I do. I offered the following solutions:
-SAHM for one year. We burn some savings and get back on board later. Unacceptablr because she did not want to leave her baby in a year either.
-Dramatic spending changes for permanent SAHM. Sell the 2700sf house and buy something half the cost. Consider going down to one car. Stop eating at restaurants all together. Drop annual spending from the 60k's to the 30-40k's. Unacceptable, and I'm not sure why.
Neither option was acceptable in her opinion, and actually planning to slowly go broke (SAHM with current spending) was a no-go in my opinion. So, after making it binary, she decided working was inevitable.
Also, I've begged her to start looking for another job, even with a pay cut. She seems to think the job itself is inevitable.
Yep, we belong in counseling! :)
Quite a few similarities to my situation. We are also in about the same housing, vehicle and spending situation as you are. You presented several options with math to back them up, but it seems that often times emotion trumps logic. This strong emotional power is also why people bury themselves in debt and don't stop wasting money. Unfortunately, emotions can't stop you from "slowly going broke" as you describe.
According to my calculations, every year my wife continues working full-time it cuts 2.5 years off my working career. I'm not exactly working my "dream job" so is it selfish of me to not want to make that trade?
Emotions and math and analysis and calculations. It hits everyone, and baby hormones are no joke. I always recommend that people don't make rash decisions. My girlfriends who have babies...I always recommend they go back to work. Because in my industry, it's easier to go back to work and quit later, than it is to quit and go back. A couple of friends who quit are now trying to figure out how to go back...but to go back part time.
The only people I know who have managed part time are either self-employed OR they worked full time and "cut back" to part time. They didn't get a new job at part time. There's the tricky part.
I'm a big fan of baby steps in some situations and for some people (rather than facepunches), because it just depends. Example: we are pretty frugal but I got all into it right around 2001 and I tried to get my spouse to cancel cable TV. It was a no go for him. He liked TV. He didn't agree to drop TV until 2012 (right before my mat leave on baby #2).
The thing with "binary" is that it's EASY. Yes or no. Black or white. True success, to me, is in the shades of gray. But it's HARD. If you present your wife with all the ways you can cut back to stay at home, it's overwhelming. Not only is she starting new life as a mom, but you are "taking away" all of these other things. And often marriages don't survive a bunch of big changes.
But you know, baby steps. Have that baby. Get comfortable being a parent. Slowly cut back on your eating out, because I tell you, eating out with a toddler sucks anyway. Realize that your house is too big, start looking for a smaller one. I know MMM and a lot of others like the "big sweeping changes" but they don't necessarily work for everyone.
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The math said the SAHM would put us significantly cash flow negative at our current rates of spending. She makes more than I do. I offered the following solutions:
-SAHM for one year. We burn some savings and get back on board later. Unacceptablr because she did not want to leave her baby in a year either.
-Dramatic spending changes for permanent SAHM. Sell the 2700sf house and buy something half the cost. Consider going down to one car. Stop eating at restaurants all together. Drop annual spending from the 60k's to the 30-40k's. Unacceptable, and I'm not sure why.
Neither option was acceptable in her opinion, and actually planning to slowly go broke (SAHM with current spending) was a no-go in my opinion. So, after making it binary, she decided working was inevitable.
Also, I've begged her to start looking for another job, even with a pay cut. She seems to think the job itself is inevitable.
Yep, we belong in counseling! :)
Quite a few similarities to my situation. We are also in about the same housing, vehicle and spending situation as you are. You presented several options with math to back them up, but it seems that often times emotion trumps logic. This strong emotional power is also why people bury themselves in debt and don't stop wasting money. Unfortunately, emotions can't stop you from "slowly going broke" as you describe.
According to my calculations, every year my wife continues working full-time it cuts 2.5 years off my working career. I'm not exactly working my "dream job" so is it selfish of me to not want to make that trade?
There are 2 main landmines you must not step on.
One is referring to emotions or hormones, or any contrast between these urges and rationality. If you even touch that subject, you will be labeled an uncaring bully.
The second is referring to options as a win for one of you and a loss for the other. Then, if she does go back to work, it will be because you "won" what you wanted at the expense of her life purpose, meaning, and dream. This is why my wife and I can no longer even discuss financial goals; it brings up the loss she feels about that first year.
As you can see, these emotions (of which you cannot speak) change the rules of direct communication, and now you have to be subtle as the only one who can guide the family in a financially responsible direction.
The most effective approach, I say in hindsight and after committing all the damage I did, was to build the budgets, put the radical options on the table in writing, and describing which choices you are and are not in favor of (e.g. I drew the line at burning savings for more than 1 year, and built 2 options around that which still involved SAHMing).
Don't mention early retirement dreams, or those dreams get the blame for all the dissatisfaction and then you might never be on the same page again.
You may want to reevaluate your attitude towards your wife, and women in general. There seems to be a lack of respect there, in previous posts, and especially this one.
Open and honest communication is the best path to a healthy relationship, IMO.
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One more note... breastfeeding rocks, but it's harder than a dude like me would think. Consider getting a lactaction consultant at the first sign of trouble, or before. Yes, that's a real profession, and yes they can solve problems you aren't even aware of.
Also, order some Lecitin (derived from soy, sunflower, etc) in bulk. It prevents mastitis and works wonders. This from a guy who considers the supplement industry to be one step above the tobacco industry in terms of legitimacy.
Yes yes yes yes. Soy lecithin is a lifesaver with plugged ducts and mastitis. I'm a microbiologist who works in the pharmaceutical industry, and I'm not about supplements at all either, and this stuff saved me from a trip to the hospital for IV antibiotics for mastitis (after other antibiotics and crazy remedies didn't work). I have zero idea what the mechanism of action is, and idgaf, because it works.
I went back to work at 32 hours a week 12 weeks after my baby was born, and it was really hard. I think it was good for me, eventually, but even knowing in advance that this was the plan and that I'm the one with the health insurance, it sucked so hard. If she does end up going back to work, it really helps to get updates/pictures of the baby throughout the day, so you know what is going on. Not braggy "We're doing so many fun things without you!" updates, if possible, but knowing that they're eating enough and napping a lot and being entertained eases your mind a little bit.
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OP, I suggest you not present your wife options and limitations. The problem with doing so is that it isn't a collaborative process between equals. Your priority should be to support her emotionally rather than managing her decision making process to ensure that she reaches an outcome that works for you.
Your math and logic and reasons sound impeccable but in marriage right and happy are not the same. To clarify, I'm not saying that she should get to quit her job and stay home in a way that's financially irresponsible. I'm saying that it's her life and her career and that you should let her drive the planning and decision making process and possibly get couples counselling now to confirm shared values and goals.
It might be helpful to imagine how you would hope she react if you had an opportunity to go play for the Yankees or be an astronaut or whatever but for no pay. What would be possible for your non remunerative once in a lifetime opportunity? How would you want her to support you in deciding what to do?
Good Luck with everything!
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OP -- These decisions are intensely personal, and only you and your wife can decide how to move forward. I have friends who have been SAHMs since day one, friends who are working long hours in full time jobs, and many things in between. There are as many solutions as there are families. However, here are my two cents and our story, FWIW.
IMO your wife's opportunity to work from home two days a week is great. I think such an opportunity deserves a good try at it to see if it could work for your family. I also agree 100% with the other posters that it is MUCH easier to go from full time to part time, than to quit and then try to get back into the job market. It's usually easier to "lose career altitude" than to gain it. Many times an employer will let you pare back your position rather than lose you.
After our daughter was born my employer let me drop down to a 32 hour/4 day schedule. I went back to work when she was 8 weeks old, and leaving her at day care that first week was haaard. But it got easier. I knew she was well cared for, and I got to look forward to my day off with her each week. We went on to have baby #2 and I continued working 4 days a week. It was not easy, but I have no regrets. I would not have wanted to stop working entirely, and I was grateful for the part time schedule.
Then we moved and I took a new job that allowed me to work from home full time. Working from home is not all wine and roses. It has tremendous benefits, but it comes with its own challenges. You are isolated from the office, and may have to work harder to keep up on all the goings-on so as not to be left behind. You still need child care, because you will NOT be able to adequately focus on projects, do telephone calls, Skypes, etc. and care for a child at the same time. Will the child care be at another location? You'll have to do the drop offs and pick ups. Will the child care be in your home? You will need to set aside a separate quiet work area, close the door, and resist the urge to go see your child every few minutes. Working with children in the house requires discipline. You and the person caring for your child may get in each other's hair from time to time. Just some things to think about.
We are now at a point where DH is a SAHD. He left a well-paying but stressful job last year after I was offered a high-paying position. I agree with the other posters that having a SAHP is even more important when the kids are older than when they are little. And --I would not have been in a position to take that great job offer if I had taken years off to SAH . . . So us biting the bullet when the kids were little (both of us continuing to work) worked out for us.
Kind of a rambling comment, but the point is that having kids is damned hard. Something always has to give. Female perspective: I am grateful that DH never pushed me toward any one solution, and was always supportive. Also so grateful that he was willing to think outside the box for a solution. We always figured it out together.
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To work or to stay at home is more than just a numbers calculation or a 'rational' decision. There are many factors including the values that one holds.
The numbers may show working provides FIRE faster, but what are the trade offs. kids do cost money, and sacrifices, and should require a shift in priorities. It doesn't mean that you abandon your goals, but one needs to reevaluate.
Before kids, I was on a fast promoting careers track that I loved. I knew I couldn't keep the same pace as before kids, and figure each child would set back my career aspirations by about 5 years. I have found that my kids have had a bigger impact than I first estimated. It's all good, but I had to recognized my priorities and values have changed.
Instead of just looking at options, maybe look at priorities and find out what is important to both of you. If your wife feels that raising the kids is more important than FIRE, then it' even more important to have a open conversation of how to balance conflicting priorities.
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I am a little shocked at all the answers that lean to "just let her do her thing and not worry how that's going to affect you" ... What!? That's pretty callous and simply turns you into a workhorse who's primary job in life is to be a paycheck so that your wife can fulfill her newly formed dream of being a SAHM. I call foul! Has anyone mentioned that, perhaps, you'd like to spend time with your children and not be a worker drone? -- but that you're willing to do it to benefit your family and the plans you've made with your wife up until now.
I completely agree and understand your frustrations and concerns with your wife trying to change course, mid-stream. I think you've been really compassionate about this and have addressed it very appropriately!
Kudos!
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I have been a work at home mom, and IMO if you can have one parent free to take care of baby, it creates much less stress for the entire family- that can take many forms. Mom staying home, dad staying home, a sort of hybrid where mom works 4 days, dad works 4 days, and baby goes to grandmas the other 3 days. There is no right or wrong way, but adding a baby changes a household. Just having that extra day to chill out, play with baby, do household stuff, catch up on sleep helps the family flow easier. How much value do you place on less stress? I guess that's a value judgement that you will have to make. I have friends and family doing it all sorts of ways, but I have to say that I *love* seeing my cousin's husbands working from home or taking shorter weeks to care for their babies! I think you should value your wife's opinion, talk through options and see what makes the most sense. She is having strong mommy urges to care for and bond with her baby, I think you should respect that. I've never felt like 6 or 8 weeks was enough to really recover from childbirth, and think 4-6 months is much more reasonable. At 8 weeks, if nursing, your milk is just starting to even out and you are getting into the hang of the mothering, juggling the house, dinner, but nights are long and none of my babies slept through the night. Your body is pretty much recovered from the delivery, but still not back to normal. Just the thought of having to be at work at a set time would have made me really stressed out. By 4 months, I am in my groove, I feel great, baby sleeps longer and I'm not feeling the need to be there 24/7. I love to leave them with grandma- and baby has bonded with grandma ;) If it's possible with her employer, and feasible $$-wise, I think putting FI off for even a year is absolutely worth having a longer maternity leave or going part-time.
What's in it for you? I'd say less stress and a wife who knows you acknowledge and respect her feelings. The main con is of course money. If you can afford it, I think it's worth it. Remember there are other options than just SAHM or FTWM.
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I have done SAHM, WFH, and full-time work. The deal where your wife may be allowed to work from home two days per week sounds like it has potential... I wish you well.
Just want to throw this out: what's the point of FIRE if your marriage ends up in real trouble? Which is the real priority: retiring early, or maintaining the relationship that's essential to quality of life for both of you?
I don't think anyone has said this: take care of your sex life.
Working moms sometimes feel too stressed to feel sexy. Also, when we get home, we're automatically drawn to spend time with the kids. With kids, it can take conscious effort to carve out time and energy for being a lover.
On the other hand, SAHMs can suffer from getting "touched out" - feeling like they've been touching another human being ALL DAY. Husbands should be sensitive to that, and wives have gotta understand the very real needs of husbands. There's also the problem of feeling frumpy as a SAHM. For me it was always important to find time to exercise, not wear sweatpants all day, etc.
Part time can be a sweet spot.
As a final note, I don't think sex is necessarily the glue that bonds the marriage together. Orgasm is a big neurochemical high, and many people actually go into a trough afterward. There's a theory that this subsequent "low" (attended by irritability, anxiety, depression...) can make a person subconsciously feel negative toward his or her partner and explains why men tend to tune out just when women get clingy.
Lots of generous, non-sexual touch can help with this by stimulating oxytocin, a bonding chemical. This may mean literally rubbing shoulders, massages with no strings attached, holding hands, making a point of touching while sitting on the couch together, holding each other in bed at night/morning. Even smiles, eye contact, and doing little favors for each other help maintain a strong bond and good feelings toward each other. (You hard-core savers should appreciate that: bonding behaviors are the "money" in your relationship "bank"!)
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I am a little shocked at all the answers that lean to "just let her do her thing and not worry how that's going to affect you" ... What!? That's pretty callous and simply turns you into a workhorse who's primary job in life is to be a paycheck so that your wife can fulfill her newly formed dream of being a SAHM. I call foul! Has anyone mentioned that, perhaps, you'd like to spend time with your children and not be a worker drone? -- but that you're willing to do it to benefit your family and the plans you've made with your wife up until now.
I completely agree and understand your frustrations and concerns with your wife trying to change course, mid-stream. I think you've been really compassionate about this and have addressed it very appropriately!
Kudos!
+1
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I am a little shocked at all the answers that lean to "just let her do her thing and not worry how that's going to affect you
I wouldn't put that spin on it.
I think it's more "ultimately, we hope you [OP] support her in what she wants."
That includes not automatically presuming she's being "irrational" (e.g. title of the thread) in her desires.
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I am a little shocked at all the answers that lean to "just let her do her thing and not worry how that's going to affect you
I wouldn't put that spin on it.
I think it's more "ultimately, we hope you [OP] support her in what she wants."
That includes not automatically presuming she's being "irrational" (e.g. title of the thread) in her desires.
(Don't kill me, I'm just the messenger. ) :))
As someone who's been there, and as other posters pointed out, this isn't a rationality-driven conversation. It's driven by instinct and hormones - the same instincts and hormones that have prevented parents from abandoning their offspring in the days before early childhood education. Modern life contradicts instinct, which evolved in an era when losing contact with an infant - even momentarily - meant the infant often died. We're the decendents of moms who refused to ever leave their infants behind to go do something else for 8 hours. Doing this is insane, biologically speaking. Nature has its own logic.
And it's a fact that women have these urges in a stronger/different way than men, and so disagreements erupt that weren't even anticipated a few months before, when two rational, level-headed individuals arrived at consensus family and financial goals. This isn't a dig against women - we all owe our lives to these instincts.
For many (but not all) of us, having a SAH parent is a decision with a financial impact equal to going out to the car lot and buying three luxury SUVs - just to have a spare SUV on hand - with an early 401(k) withdraw. We may be talking hundreds of thousands of dollars over time. To satisfy an urge.
For the working parent, it can mean years of extra work and less flexibility to change jobs if the job sucks. Overtime may now be required. Then when you get home from the latest worst day of your life at work, you get to hear how hard it is to SAH. It changes their "deal" a lot, and resentment can ensue.
All this said, there is no simple rule to decision making, like "do what he/she/you want". Sometimes, all the options suck in different ways - which is often the case when it comes to parenting BTW. Attempts to find the optimal choice can drive parents to fight over imaginary better outcomes.
The 2-working parents position has all the facts on its side. Financially, it's obvious. Developmentally, research shows the early socialization and curriculum are beneficial for kids. However, the SAH option is what one parent really wants, and all this rational talk sounds like an argument for working 18h days 7 days a week while living in an old car because the numbers say you'll retire 10 months earlier.
My caution is to not get frustrated and beat the other person over the head with the facts and math until they resent you. Similarly, the instincts and hormones will gladly drive you to financial ruin, which is why they sell $200 comforter sets for cribs (actually not a safe sleep practice either). Some deal must be made, and it will suck in some way for somebody.
Just don't go in like a sucker thinking this is a routine rational decision. I assure you, it's not. It helps to keep in mind you owe your life to this fact too.
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Emotion and reason are not mutually exclusive.
In other words, just because emotion plays into a decision doesn't make it irrational.
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If being 'rational' is decided by only the financial calculation, then the most rational decision is to not have kids. Kids cost money, even if in a mustachian way. If it's only about getting enough money to FIRE then one shouldn't have had kids.
If you choose to have kids, then you must also determine what is Best which is subjective.
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DH and I have a six month old. We both work full time (I'm an attorney, DH runs a company), and my mom watches the baby. IT. IS. AWESOME.
My thoughts, in no particular order:
- You mentioned that your mom might provide childcare. Have your mom start watching baby one day a week now so your wife can adjust. My daughter started to spend the night at my in laws once a week around 6 weeks postpartum and it was great. I got used to being separated, pumping breastmilk, and enjoying time away from baby long before I went back to work at 12 weeks. I can't imagine trying to juggle all that at once - childcare, breast pumps, pick ups and drop offs, meals, etc.
- Don't make any hasty changes. She might realized that she loves working once she gets used to it. You might realize that you value spending time at home more than you thought, and you would rather work part time than FIRE ASAP. Neither one of you knows.
- Optimize your spending so you have more options. If you spend a ton on groceries, say to your wife "I want to optimize our grocery spending. Can I take over the shopping for a month to see what I can do?"
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If being 'rational' is decided by only the financial calculation, then the most rational decision is to not have kids. Kids cost money, even if in a mustachian way. If it's only about getting enough money to FIRE then one shouldn't have had kids.
If you choose to have kids, then you must also determine what is Best which is subjective.
I agree. Furthermore, if being 'rational' is decided by only the financial calculation, then it's not rational to want to FIRE. Rationally speaking, you should want to save maximally AND work till you drop dead of old age, if accumulation of money is the measurement.
If lifetime total of free time is the metric, ChpBstrd and OP are more rational than their wives.
If happiness of the child is the metric, the SAHM wives may be more rational. ChpBstrd says, "Developmentally, research shows the early socialization and curriculum are beneficial for kids." But, that applies to your older baby or toddler. Young babies don't need much socialization with other children; developmentally they just need to form a strong bond with a loving, constant, and responsive caregiver. A baby can get this from a parent or other relative, an excellent daycare, or an excellent nanny. I personally stayed at home because I know that I'm an excellent caregiver, better than any we could hire, I generally enjoy it, and my husband loves his job anyway. I also calculated that it would take a minimum $60K salary to replace all the home work I do, such as the accounting, cooking, DIY fixing and renovations, etc.
One thing that is bad for children of any age, is to be cared for by stressed or unhappy people, or to be subjected to too much change in personnel. So, a depressed SAHM who never gets a break is a bad idea, so is a pair of stressed-out WOHPs who are running around while the baby is in a daycare that sees a lot of staff turnover, or parked with a series of inexperienced au pairs. Even under these conditions, it's not the end of the world: babies are usually tough creatures. Though some children are more resilient than others (see this article from the Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/307761/) for a popular review of the fascinating plasticity hypothesis.)
Anyway, Cheapass and ChpBstrd's desires to retire early thus go head-to-head with their wives' desires to spend time with their infants while they are tiny. The rationality of these desires depends on the metric used. The part which was probably offensive to ChpBstrd's wife is his assumption that his metric is superior.
My impression of the MMM way is frugality, not cheapness: decide what is important to you in life (obviously an irrational process) and give up things that are unimportant in order to afford the important. Usually this means, give up your credit card addiction in order to retire early and spend time the way you like. But equally, it could mean give up your credit card addiction in order for a parent to stay at home.
TBH, I think that OP's situation (negotiated since they began the conversation) is great... extra time at home, loving family ready to help, plus a part-week work option for his wife.
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Emotion and reason are not mutually exclusive.
In other words, just because emotion plays into a decision doesn't make it irrational.
I agree, and there's probably a lot more to be said about the nexus of rationality, emotion, and Mustachianism.
The lifestyle is supported by a basic understanding of math, economics, psychology, and health - the rational side. Yet, emotion is the basis of human motivation. The expectation of being satisfied/happy is what makes FIRE more appealing than working until death. An emotionless robot might not care either way. Emotion assigns value to different outcomes. Our definition of "rational" is something like "will make me happier."
Yet, emotion is also driving the lifestyle mistakes we shake our heads about. The fake work truck, McMansion, and cosmetics satisfy social and sexual insecurities. The five-figure checking accounts and selling at the bottom are driven by fear. The hoarding of merchandise and/or animals is driven by misplaced love. The people who try not to look at their credit card balances are avoiding anxiety. The name-brand fancy clothes are supposed to relieve our fears of rejection. My kid has too many toys because the grandparents think this is how you express love!
In a nutshell, we're all trying to use rationality to make decisions that will yield the best emotional outcomes. It's always awkward to tell another person what actions will result in their happiness, whether we're talking kids or SUVs.
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Emotion and reason are not mutually exclusive.
In other words, just because emotion plays into a decision doesn't make it irrational.
+1000
It's not black or white.
The 2-working parents position has all the facts on its side. Financially, it's obvious. Developmentally, research shows the early socialization and curriculum are beneficial for kids. However, the SAH option is what one parent really wants, and all this rational talk sounds like an argument for working 18h days 7 days a week while living in an old car because the numbers say you'll retire 10 months earlier.
It may, perhaps, only have numbers on its side. It will depend quite a bit on the people involved.
I am a working mother. I enjoy it, mostly, but it can be MIND-NUMBINGLY EXHAUSTING.
YES I make more money than daycare.
YES my kids are well adjusted.
NO my career isn't "awesome". My husband makes more money, *I* end up doing more of the kid-related duties when they are sick or whatever, my CAREER and my SALARY suck ROCKS because of that.
So...there are times when we are all, frankly, exhausted. Cranky. Angry with each other. Because nobody gets as much attention as they want, and still somebody has to cook 21 fucking meals every week and keep the laundry washed and the dishes clean.
I'm telling you man, you are vastly underestimating the exhaustion that can come with having 2 working parents. When my older child was a baby? I was sick for 5 straight months that winter (November through March). When my second kid was 1? I got a cold. That turned into bronchitis. I was sick for a MONTH. Could barely get out of bed. My husband can still tell you all about how he worked full time and did ALL of the kid stuff and household chores for a month. And it was 3 years ago.
hell just last week kid #1 had a runny nose, which turned into a 2-day fever for kid #2 (bye bye 2 days of PTO). Lucky for me, he loves to snuggle daddy. So my husband came down with it next and he was so sick he literally was awake for 4 hours on Thursday. Bye bye 2 extra sick days for him, and hello doing all of the kid stuff, cooking, full time job, dishes for mommy ALL while sleeping on the couch.
Sanity man.
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This probably isn't the same for everyone, but I felt like dealing with daycare when my kids were babies was a 1000x easier than it is for now school-aged children (the youngest currently in preschool 2x/week). School schedules are crap. They just are. At least with infant daycare, there was just one place/person/other schedule to deal with. The school called a snow day on Monday for no good fucking reason. The roads were bad on Sunday. They were completely fine by Monday morning. The public school doesn't offer any daycare for the year after 12/21. Add in extra-curriculars, and it gets very challenging to work full-time. I need to get back to work for financial reasons, but I don't know how I'm possibly going to juggle everything when I do. I say, shoot for the ER and try to suck it up for a few more years--at least until school starts.
This made me laugh and is totally true. Plus, throw in 2 hour delays after holidays...I dont know how working parents do it.
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I am a little shocked at all the answers that lean to "just let her do her thing and not worry how that's going to affect you
I wouldn't put that spin on it.
I think it's more "ultimately, we hope you [OP] support her in what she wants."
That includes not automatically presuming she's being "irrational" (e.g. title of the thread) in her desires.
Except, why aren't you also advocating that she should support him in what he wants? I'm not sure how (or why) her "wants" override his? -- That's my point.
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I am a little shocked at all the answers that lean to "just let her do her thing and not worry how that's going to affect you
I wouldn't put that spin on it.
I think it's more "ultimately, we hope you [OP] support her in what she wants."
That includes not automatically presuming she's being "irrational" (e.g. title of the thread) in her desires.
Except, why aren't you also advocating that she should support him in what he wants? I'm not sure how (or why) her "wants" override his? -- That's my point.
I am.
I said it should be a relationship "of equal partnership where both people's feelings matter."
I mentioned a middle ground.
And I said "Open and honest communication is the best path to a healthy relationship, IMO."
Neither partner's override each others, because you should be a team.
Those were all from subsequent clarification/response posts I made.
Here was my original post. Adding bolding to relevant parts to your accusation, but the underlined part was in original:
You are her partner.
It is not your job to tell her how to feel, or to determine by yourself the best plan for your future, and then "rationally" explain it to her.
It is your job to support her as an equal, and a partner.
"Talking her off the ledge" is a warped way to put what appears to me to be substituting your wants (her to keep working so you can retire early) for hers (raising the child).
Definitely communicate. All the time, non-stop.
But that doesn't mean you just explaining things to her. It means listening, and problem solving together.
Throughout this thread your responses have all been why you need to get her back to work, and how you can do that.
I would suggest that your whole approach to this is not conductive to a healthy relationship.
There are more important things then FIRE. If you to decide together that the best thing is for her to keep working, okay. But you going into that conversation with the goal of convincing her of that is not fair to her (or your relationship, or possibly your child).
Don't misinterpret me: I'm not saying I think she should stay home. I don't know nearly enough to have a thought on that.
What I'm saying is that your deciding on your own that she should go back, that her wanting to stay is just "emotional" whereas you are being "rational," that you have to "talk her off a ledge," etc. is all quite (many terms could go here.. arrogant, selfish, egotistical, short-sighted, disrespectful, etc.). It's the wrong way to approach the situation.
I don't think you're a bad person, I just don't think you're considering what your wife wants... you are just thinking about how to convince her off what YOU want.
As evidenced by your questions here. Not asking other moms how they've felt in similar circumstances to understand your wife better, but asking how you can convince her.
I know my post will raise immediate hackles/defenses.
You don't need to respond, or defend yourself. I'm just a stranger on the internet. Better not to reply to me.
But I hope you pause your immediate reaction, take a break, and revisit some of these ideas, maybe in a few days. Think: How can you support your wife?
That's the goal, much more than quickest FIRE.
Good luck!
I brought up the possibility of extending her leave by a month, unpaid, to make the transition slightly easier. She immediately thought this was a great idea. We also talked about how her boss is okay with her working from home 2 days a week, and if she crams all of her work into the 3 days she has to work at the office then it can almost be like she is working part time which is pretty ideal.
This is great! Nice that her company is so supportive.
Might be a good way to help work something you both are happy with.
The bottom line is they should each approach the conversation as "how can we make our lives better" (not "how can I make my life better") where "our" is defined as both of them and their child(ren).
They should try and understand what each other wants, and needs, and support that person, and work towards everyone getting what they want, as much as possible.
An antagonism of "she's irrational, help me convince her" isn't helpful. A "she should just support what he wants" (or vice-versa) isn't helpful.
Open, honest communication, and love and support, on all sides.
That's the goal.
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To the two Cheaps (OP and ChpBstd), my two cents are to realize, which you seem to to a degree, that you are causing havoc on your relationships by placing FIRE or "rational" money decisions above all else. There is a reason many, if not most, divorces occur over financial reasons. As someone who has gone through a divorce (not for financial reasons), I will tell you THAT course of events will almost ensure you NEVER FIRE. Not only the cost of the act, but the ongoing excess costs of life after divorce will drain tens if not hundreds of thousands of your savings away. Only you can decide how hard you push, but I'd say in both cases you've gone past any safe zone.
I'm a little late to the FIRE game but being now remarried and with six kids in total, FIRE is not really on the table for us, so we are simply trying to maximize the savings to provide for other things we've deemed important. My wife used to work in a career (before we met) that made near six figures. She hated the environment and has since changed careers and become a teacher for a third of what she made before. Our lifestyle is sized to our current income but we have had conversations at times about if she should go back to the corporate world because anything more could go direct to savings. The "rational" decision would seem to make this the right choice. I certainly would like to spend fewer years at work and possibly retire 3-5 years earlier than common retirement age, but my response is always if the work she does makes her happy (and I know it does), no amount of money is worth the trade for that. Your wife seems to be telling you she wants a new job, being a SAHM (the hardest job in the world by the way), and you seem to be saying her dream does not matter and is subservient to yours because it is not "rational". I'm not sure why you cannot not understand why she takes offense at that.
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Just to play devils advocate- this time with your young child is time you won't be able to get back later - it sound like you come up with some creative solutions to help though. Just remember they're only little once and that time may be more important than retiring a year earlier etc. I don't think anyone said I wished I spent less time with my baby when they're suddenly ten or so years old. They may say it in the moment though in the thick of Diapers and sleepless nights!
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This thread contains some great advice. I'm due to have my first child soon, and I am cutting and pasting some of this advice for later when I'm sleep deprived and an emotional wreck- Especially the advice about having the dad hand off the baby when mom leaves, and the inlaw stuff. I haven't had the baby yet and already I'm in a panic at the idea of leaving them with a stranger- and I am going the nanny route because my coworkers kids come home from daycare infested with lice and I do not want my child fed junk food, exposed to bad behavior, or my sleep structure training ruined. All my life I thought I'd want to be at work ASAP after having a child, but definitely pregnancy has changed that.
The nanny is so expensive, especially with taxes etc, that it is almost a wash with my take home pay from a 6 figure salary! Still, I know that if I look at myself externally as a stranger would, the "rational" decision for me is to suck it up and work for 2 years in a career I hate, because the health insurance for 3 people savings are huge and I can pay off my remaining debt to where I no longer need to earn anywhere near as much (plus keep the employer contributions to my 401K). But I already have that powerful, visceral urge not to leave my child, so I anticipate having strong urges like the wife in this thread during the post partum period. Also, I would have very short tenure at my current job, which paired with short tenure at the previous job would impair my ability to find a good work-from-home job. In the longer run, if I stick it out, my education and experience should translate to a decent work from home or part time job.
Initially I too had fights with my spouse. He hates that I have debt from before we were married (school, house, etc), and initially refused to pay any of those items because he disapproves of them (they are old and at low rates on fixed payment plans). What has been difficult for me is that if he helped me with those payments while I stayed home, they would be far less than what he is willing to pay some total stranger nanny off Craigslist to stay home with OUR child in OUR home all day long while OUR child gets the end-of-the-day scraps of my time and what's left of me after a long miserable day at a stressful job. To me, this is just paying someone else's (a stranger's) school loans and mortgage for them instead, and these people are an inferior choice in child care. I understand my debt is not his responsibility, but it still hurt my feelings deeply, because I'm having this child now on his timetable- not what's best for my career and financial situation. I already have fallout and pressure at work because they are openly put out and disapproving that I'll be out on 6-8 weeks of (unpaid) maternity leave and I feel like it will cost me a potential promotion. It already cost me one at my last job- the promotion my boss discussed with me was given to someone else as soon as word got out we were planning to have a family.
As my pregnancy has progressed and we started really looking for child care, and my husband can see and feel our baby moving and the baby has a name, we have gotten closer as a couple and started working together more and he is much more willing to help and try to figure out a way for me to stay home. Just that willingness has transformed my willingness to stick it out at work and try to take the rational route and get through another couple of years at work, which allows me to freelance from home without pressure and with no debt.
I'm being pressured now to commit to coming back as soon as I can medically (6 weeks or less), and I really want 10-12 weeks so the baby is sleeping more and I'm not falling asleep at the wheel on my commute or in long meetings. So what I have done is started compiling a list of work projects that only I know how to do that can be done remotely from home. When the time comes, I'll act really willing to come back, but try to negotiate a 2-4 week transition of working from home. My supervisor is supportive, but the execs are already complaining before I've gone out on maternity leave, and I've never missed a day of work during this entire pregnancy or before!
Anyway, this thread has given me the opportunity to write advice to my future sleep deprived new mother self to help with these same struggles when they inevitably come up soon.
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I'm being pressured now to commit to coming back as soon as I can medically (6 weeks or less), and I really want 10-12 weeks so the baby is sleeping more and I'm not falling asleep at the wheel on my commute or in long meetings. So what I have done is started compiling a list of work projects that only I know how to do that can be done remotely from home. When the time comes, I'll act really willing to come back, but try to negotiate a 2-4 week transition of working from home. My supervisor is supportive, but the execs are already complaining before I've gone out on maternity leave, and I've never missed a day of work during this entire pregnancy or before!
This is bullshit, and needs to be called out. When my wife was pregnant, people referred to her "baby vacation" once or twice. Thankfully, it got shot down hard and fast, but it never should've happened in the first place.
Six weeks is an absurdly short parental leave, and we're pretty much the only developed country who doesn't recognize that. Take what you're entitled to.
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This thread contains some great advice. I'm due to have my first child soon, and I am cutting and pasting some of this advice for later when I'm sleep deprived and an emotional wreck- Especially the advice about having the dad hand off the baby when mom leaves, and the inlaw stuff. I haven't had the baby yet and already I'm in a panic at the idea of leaving them with a stranger- and I am going the nanny route because my coworkers kids come home from daycare infested with lice and I do not want my child fed junk food, exposed to bad behavior, or my sleep structure training ruined. All my life I thought I'd want to be at work ASAP after having a child, but definitely pregnancy has changed that.
The nanny is so expensive, especially with taxes etc, that it is almost a wash with my take home pay from a 6 figure salary! Still, I know that if I look at myself externally as a stranger would, the "rational" decision for me is to suck it up and work for 2 years in a career I hate, because the health insurance for 3 people savings are huge and I can pay off my remaining debt to where I no longer need to earn anywhere near as much (plus keep the employer contributions to my 401K). But I already have that powerful, visceral urge not to leave my child, so I anticipate having strong urges like the wife in this thread during the post partum period. Also, I would have very short tenure at my current job, which paired with short tenure at the previous job would impair my ability to find a good work-from-home job. In the longer run, if I stick it out, my education and experience should translate to a decent work from home or part time job.
Initially I too had fights with my spouse. He hates that I have debt from before we were married (school, house, etc), and initially refused to pay any of those items because he disapproves of them (they are old and at low rates on fixed payment plans). What has been difficult for me is that if he helped me with those payments while I stayed home, they would be far less than what he is willing to pay some total stranger nanny off Craigslist to stay home with OUR child in OUR home all day long while OUR child gets the end-of-the-day scraps of my time and what's left of me after a long miserable day at a stressful job. To me, this is just paying someone else's (a stranger's) school loans and mortgage for them instead, and these people are an inferior choice in child care. I understand my debt is not his responsibility, but it still hurt my feelings deeply, because I'm having this child now on his timetable- not what's best for my career and financial situation. I already have fallout and pressure at work because they are openly put out and disapproving that I'll be out on 6-8 weeks of (unpaid) maternity leave and I feel like it will cost me a potential promotion. It already cost me one at my last job- the promotion my boss discussed with me was given to someone else as soon as word got out we were planning to have a family.
As my pregnancy has progressed and we started really looking for child care, and my husband can see and feel our baby moving and the baby has a name, we have gotten closer as a couple and started working together more and he is much more willing to help and try to figure out a way for me to stay home. Just that willingness has transformed my willingness to stick it out at work and try to take the rational route and get through another couple of years at work, which allows me to freelance from home without pressure and with no debt.
I'm being pressured now to commit to coming back as soon as I can medically (6 weeks or less), and I really want 10-12 weeks so the baby is sleeping more and I'm not falling asleep at the wheel on my commute or in long meetings. So what I have done is started compiling a list of work projects that only I know how to do that can be done remotely from home. When the time comes, I'll act really willing to come back, but try to negotiate a 2-4 week transition of working from home. My supervisor is supportive, but the execs are already complaining before I've gone out on maternity leave, and I've never missed a day of work during this entire pregnancy or before!
Anyway, this thread has given me the opportunity to write advice to my future sleep deprived new mother self to help with these same struggles when they inevitably come up soon.
There are a lot of issues that you and your spouse need to work out in your note. Wishing you all the best. It does seem like the work situation could does need to be traded for a better one.
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I am a little shocked at all the answers that lean to "just let her do her thing and not worry how that's going to affect you
I wouldn't put that spin on it.
I think it's more "ultimately, we hope you [OP] support her in what she wants."
That includes not automatically presuming she's being "irrational" (e.g. title of the thread) in her desires.
Except, why aren't you also advocating that she should support him in what he wants? I'm not sure how (or why) her "wants" override his? -- That's my point.
I am.
I said it should be a relationship "of equal partnership where both people's feelings matter."
I mentioned a middle ground.
And I said "Open and honest communication is the best path to a healthy relationship, IMO."
Neither partner's override each others, because you should be a team.
Those were all from subsequent clarification/response posts I made.
Here was my original post. Adding bolding to relevant parts to your accusation, but the underlined part was in original:
You are her partner.
It is not your job to tell her how to feel, or to determine by yourself the best plan for your future, and then "rationally" explain it to her.
It is your job to support her as an equal, and a partner.
"Talking her off the ledge" is a warped way to put what appears to me to be substituting your wants (her to keep working so you can retire early) for hers (raising the child).
Definitely communicate. All the time, non-stop.
But that doesn't mean you just explaining things to her. It means listening, and problem solving together.
Throughout this thread your responses have all been why you need to get her back to work, and how you can do that.
I would suggest that your whole approach to this is not conductive to a healthy relationship.
There are more important things then FIRE. If you to decide together that the best thing is for her to keep working, okay. But you going into that conversation with the goal of convincing her of that is not fair to her (or your relationship, or possibly your child).
Don't misinterpret me: I'm not saying I think she should stay home. I don't know nearly enough to have a thought on that.
What I'm saying is that your deciding on your own that she should go back, that her wanting to stay is just "emotional" whereas you are being "rational," that you have to "talk her off a ledge," etc. is all quite (many terms could go here.. arrogant, selfish, egotistical, short-sighted, disrespectful, etc.). It's the wrong way to approach the situation.
I don't think you're a bad person, I just don't think you're considering what your wife wants... you are just thinking about how to convince her off what YOU want.
As evidenced by your questions here. Not asking other moms how they've felt in similar circumstances to understand your wife better, but asking how you can convince her.
I know my post will raise immediate hackles/defenses.
You don't need to respond, or defend yourself. I'm just a stranger on the internet. Better not to reply to me.
But I hope you pause your immediate reaction, take a break, and revisit some of these ideas, maybe in a few days. Think: How can you support your wife?
That's the goal, much more than quickest FIRE.
Good luck!
I brought up the possibility of extending her leave by a month, unpaid, to make the transition slightly easier. She immediately thought this was a great idea. We also talked about how her boss is okay with her working from home 2 days a week, and if she crams all of her work into the 3 days she has to work at the office then it can almost be like she is working part time which is pretty ideal.
This is great! Nice that her company is so supportive.
Might be a good way to help work something you both are happy with.
The bottom line is they should each approach the conversation as "how can we make our lives better" (not "how can I make my life better") where "our" is defined as both of them and their child(ren).
They should try and understand what each other wants, and needs, and support that person, and work towards everyone getting what they want, as much as possible.
An antagonism of "she's irrational, help me convince her" isn't helpful. A "she should just support what he wants" (or vice-versa) isn't helpful.
Open, honest communication, and love and support, on all sides.
That's the goal.
I agree in principle. One should always make a mutually beneficial decision.
I will make one caveat, which you'll probably agree with, that the reality of finances trumps feelings. I've seen way too many relationships ruined and families in constant stress to avoid a hard conversation with a spouse over out of control finances.
We're not talking retire at 45 vs. 50. We're talking consistent negative monthly cash flow. For the security of the family, a hard decision has to be made, even if it invites marital conflict.
Does that mean go full Rambo on your spouse? Of course not, but at some point cold, hard numbers trump feelings. Financial insecurity is just divorce on an installment plan.
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I'm being pressured now to commit to coming back as soon as I can medically (6 weeks or less), and I really want 10-12 weeks so the baby is sleeping more and I'm not falling asleep at the wheel on my commute or in long meetings. So what I have done is started compiling a list of work projects that only I know how to do that can be done remotely from home. When the time comes, I'll act really willing to come back, but try to negotiate a 2-4 week transition of working from home. My supervisor is supportive, but the execs are already complaining before I've gone out on maternity leave, and I've never missed a day of work during this entire pregnancy or before!
You have to keep in mind that FMLA only applies to employees that have been in a job a year and only employers that employee a certain number of people. Not everyone is entitled to 12 weeks (as much as I disagree with this policy). My state for example says the employer has to allow you the time when you are disabled from the pregnancy. That can be less or more than 12 weeks. Since my employer is too small for FMLA, my employer could legally require my return after I am no longer medically disabled, which is often 6 weeks. I'm just clarifying that the OP might be getting push back about what she is entitled to.
This is bullshit, and needs to be called out. When my wife was pregnant, people referred to her "baby vacation" once or twice. Thankfully, it got shot down hard and fast, but it never should've happened in the first place.
Six weeks is an absurdly short parental leave, and we're pretty much the only developed country who doesn't recognize that. Take what you're entitled to.
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You've gotten some good advice here. I am a SAHP who does a little part time work from home now that the kids are in school. If your wife doesn't want to downshift lifestyle expenses (2,700 sqft house, vacations, etc.) then something else has to give. I love being available to my kids and running our family operations. In the end, it is worth more to us monetarily than what I could earn and it's worth more from a lifestyle perspective as well. We never have to worry about sick days/snow days, we can travel freely on my husband's academic calendar, we eat better food via home-cooked meals, and we're more plugged into the community via volunteerism with our spare time. We are only going to slightly early retire (earlier than most Americans, later than most of the MMM community) but for us, it is about having the most quality time throughout.
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YES to all that LadyMuMu said. Having one parent who can stay home or work part-time/flexibly from home is so under-rated in today's society. I stay home and we get all the benefits that she mentioned and more! It's worth more than money, or retiring early, to us. I get that most on this forum might not feel the same.
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I stayed home with my 3 kids until they all went to school f.t. I have nothing against permanent SAHP but my one caution would be if they find themselves in a divorce down the road they may never be able to restart their career or work for much less $ too. Some say that about taking some years off but I have not seen that with people I know but have seen some really devastated older women in poverty when a spouse divorces them. So it is just something to think about.
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So I've only read bits and pieces of this, and by now I suspect you have resolved your concerns, but I thought I'd share our story.
My wife is a credentialed professional. It took her 6 years of additional credentialing work post BA to get to that point. When we had child #1, she was making about 125k per year while I was making 80. Our company allowed me 6 weeks of unpaid paternity leave after her 12 weeks. About two weeks before my paternity leave ended, she went on an emotional bender. She was freaked out and wanted to quit and be a SAHM.
I listened, and we worked through the costs of doing so, and what it would mean to our budget. I explained to her that we could do it, but that this is what it would mean. She wasn't fond of the consequences. We agreed that she would not work full time, and that SAHM was an acceptable solution, but part time was a better solution. She approached her boss, fully expecting that he was going to say no to the PT request. He said yes. Her income dropped to 80k, and she worked 3 days a week. We adjusted our schedules so I dropped our daughter off at daycare in the morning and she picked her up in the afternoon. We were prepared for him to say no and for her to quit and become a SAHM. That made it easier for her to ask, knowing that regardless of the outcome, she was in control of what happened.
This worked to give her the extra time with the kids that she was seeking. Fast forward 7 years and she was still working part-time, pulling in about 95k a year. I had been promoted multiple times by then, and was now making 180k. We were frazzled with the 3 kids (7,4 & 1) and we were spending like crazy on dining out and other stupid things. She came home and informed me that she was going to quit. It wasn't a discussion at that point. I said okay and we worked through the budget and it turned out that the only loss to our lifestyle was the crappy fast food and her retirement funding. 3 kids in childcare 3 days a week is still really $$$. At any rate, she is now a fully credentialed professional SAHM.
I work full time (about 60 hours per week), but I don't view it as wasting away in a cubicle. I'm providing the income for our family and she is there so our kids know that they are safe. We moved a few years ago and while they didn't like it, they handled it fine.
So what's my point? She is the one that had to choose what she wanted to do with respect to child care. Being a SAHD isn't in me, so we didn't discuss it, but we walked through all the options from the perspective of achieving both her goals of raising the kids herself, FI and overall lifestyle. If she had stayed fully employed we might have a much higher net worth, but I can't say we'd be happier. We didn't really start watching our budget until that point, so for all I know we may have just been in the spendy-pants leverage world.
Talk with your wife and help her achieve her goals. You are not wasting your life in a cubicle, you are supporting her and helping to raise your children. FIRE may take longer, but remember: "Happy wife, Happy life!"
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I stayed home with my 3 kids until they all went to school f.t. I have nothing against permanent SAHP but my one caution would be if they find themselves in a divorce down the road they may never be able to restart their career or work for much less $ too. Some say that about taking some years off but I have not seen that with people I know but have seen some really devastated older women in poverty when a spouse divorces them. So it is just something to think about.
Yup. One of the greatest risks to having a SAHP is the financial damage to them in a divorce. It is pretty one-sided even with spousal support and equal division of assets is involved. You have a few options:
1. Have external forces that make divorce less likely (religious, cultural, etc.) For example, Indian-Americans are WAY less likely to divorce. If you are from a traditional culture/religion with significant social barriers to divorce, you may take that into account.
2. Draw up a post-nuptial agreement that gives financial weight to the SAHP in the event of a divorce.
3. Put a disproportionate amount of retirement savings into the account for the SAHP (only works if you're not already maxing everything).
4. Take a chance and put a conscious effort into sustaining a strong marriage. Date nights, counseling, etc.
Just because something carries a risk, doesn't mean it is a wrong choice, just a riskier one.
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I stayed home with my 3 kids until they all went to school f.t. I have nothing against permanent SAHP but my one caution would be if they find themselves in a divorce down the road they may never be able to restart their career or work for much less $ too. Some say that about taking some years off but I have not seen that with people I know but have seen some really devastated older women in poverty when a spouse divorces them. So it is just something to think about.
Yup. One of the greatest risks to having a SAHP is the financial damage to them in a divorce. It is pretty one-sided even with spousal support and equal division of assets is involved. You have a few options:
1. Have external forces that make divorce less likely (religious, cultural, etc.) For example, Indian-Americans are WAY less likely to divorce. If you are from a traditional culture/religion with significant social barriers to divorce, you may take that into account.
2. Draw up a post-nuptial agreement that gives financial weight to the SAHP in the event of a divorce.
3. Put a disproportionate amount of retirement savings into the account for the SAHP (only works if you're not already maxing everything).
4. Take a chance and put a conscious effort into sustaining a strong marriage. Date nights, counseling, etc.
Just because something carries a risk, doesn't mean it is a wrong choice, just a riskier one.
Number 3 wouldn't matter because those assets are usually split 50/50 in a divorce, at least in my state.
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H and I were discussing the SAHP/divorce risk last night. I have 2 friends, one who just finished the divorce process, one who is starting it. Both are mid-late 40's and used to have very niche arts careers that they will never be able to get back into. Both have been at home for ~15 years. Both have xH's who made a decent middle class living but not 6 figures plus where supporting 2 households is no big thang. Even if they are ordered to receive spousal support, if you are dividing 50-60K between 2 homes, its not going to be a fancy life.
Both are feeling really defeated, that they can't go back to their old careers, and that they'll be working at Target the rest of their lives and never be able to retire.
It sucks. I have encouraged them to go back to school now and make a new career. But both are still the "primary parent" who is on call for school pick-up at 3pm, random Mondays off, etc. So they feel like they can't just jump into a new full time career. I'm not saying their isn't some complainy-pantsing going on, but it is really really hard.
I was home for 6 years. Part of the reason I went back 4 months ago is that I felt like it was now or never. 6 years was probably already "too long" but I got lucky. If that had stretched out to 8-10 years at home, I would have had to retrain or I could have only gotten hired for a retail type low skill/low pay position.
OTOH if you are mustachian from the start, if you split after 10 years of SAH, you may well have a million in the bank, and after a divorce, 500K in investible assets is plenty to let grow for another ten years while you work at Target.
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These last few posts have taken this thread in a really dark direction.
Having gone through a divorce myself, I understand the concern to a degree, but now having come out the other side and being remarried and using everything I learned about what I did wrong the first time around I'd encourage all of you to take the energy you put into worrying about what to do in case of a divorce and instead channel all that brain power into how you create or change your marriage into one that does not go in that direction. Having run a a divorce support group for many years now to help others through the aftermath, it all seems to come down to a few things; being selfish, letting other parts of your body other than your brain decide who you will marry, not putting in the effort to have serious conversations about serious topics and assuming it will all work out or love conquers all.
Some of these last posts are a bit like planning for getting fired while wondering why your employer thinks you suck at your job. Work on doing a good job and that's a lot more productive.
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The OP's problem was supposedly that his wife would not accept cut expenses or working, and, according to him, wanted a situation with negative cashflow. Forget FIRE entirely. Negative cashflow.
It is possible the situation was embellished, it's possible the wife merely said "SAH or nothing" and would not thereafter listen to the conversation, it's possible she had a post-partum condition, we have no idea. If, however, she wanted to spend even more money and not work and also stay at home, consequences be damned, it's not monstrous that the OP wanted to discuss the finances, too. The bank will not care for your good reasons.
A lot of goal-oriented guys need to develop a much better delivery on topics where they undervalue the emotional content involved for the other person. No, emotions and rationality are not separate, but emotional content certainly has a higher or lower impact and priority for different people in different situations. Good luck convincing a ravenously starving person to settle down and think carefully. There are leaders who ask about the goal first, and there are leaders who ask about the team first. With a partner, you are always trying to address both enough to reach success and happiness. Compatibility is about communicating even when those priorities don't obviously match, and he's literally asking how to have a discussion. I could understand giving him shit over bias, but not thereafter saying "you should work together" as if he weren't here asking right now how to have a discussion!
What the OP realized is very important. He may be arrogant about it or not - I think we read too much into "rationally discussing" in the thread title, frankly. I think all the title proves is that the OP values rationality. The fact is, he doesn't know how to have that conversation. OP, the recommendations are out there, and I'll try to give you some, because there are entire systems devoted to how to approach those difficult conversations to get better results for both parties. If rationality is your thing, embrace the system!
The sorts of things I'm describing may sound like bullshit to a goal-oriented person who is less impacted by emotion, but you have to overcome that bias, if you have it, to help your wife, and to help your team. Get past your own frustration. Watch "It's Not About the Nail" on Youtube, laugh, acknowledge that others understand your frustration, then MOVE ON and focus on how to heal your partnership, because focusing on your frustration won't do that.
The principles of negotiating start with asking what the other wants, working in good faith to understand the other's wants and needs, asking questions and reflecting so you can help heal emotional panic (which is often built around the fear that the emotional topic won't be addressed satisfactorily), and sharing your own wants and needs as well (that knowledge will hopefully reduce your concern that you won't be heard). Not every marriage can be saved, but many more than are can be.
The limit of therapy is that it's not on your mind enough, and a lot of partners are too likely to hear "listen!" Then, they try listening once because they're following a script, not being empathetic enough, then say "no I tried that and it didn't work." Learn about communication (it's a lot more complex than "talk a lot"). Go to therapy and ask for follow-up books. Tell your wife about techniques you learned to try on yourselves to solve your problems and make you stronger. Therapy as a team translates directly into teamwork if both parties let it.
It may be that your concern that your needs won't be met is hurting your ability to reach out to your wife successfully. You have to prioritize reaching out to her first. Emotional panic cannot be talked through as long as the cause is still there. You wouldn't chat about someone's 401k while they were dangling off a roof. Consider the emotional content of separating from the child to be, for your wife, of similar gravity, whether you experience that gravity or not. She may expect or need "JESUS honey are you ok?" (and she may need a lot of time). If you respond instead "Yes. /sigh. Yes, yes, I REMEMBER, you told me already that you're hanging from the roof, I do listen, but if we can just talk about our finances for a minute...".
Anxiety and fear, like hunger, are not easy to negotiate with. If you can't reach your wife through what you consider totally irrational behavior, the first step is probably HEARING why she is so emotional. Terror that you won't be heard is an easy way to begin ignoring your partnership. Are you doing this? You are already afraid she is doing it to you, so you may well have picked up dismissive behaviors yourself. You can't have a conversation where your objective is to get to what you want, even if what you want is totally rational and important, and learning to do that is hard. It won't matter who was right if you're divorced.
1. Start with concern about her. Talk in whatever setting would be least likely to cause additional stress. By request, I have even started conversations by email for someone with high anxiety, which I initially was totally against, but they helped the person significantly. We would pick them up in person when the emotional impact that something much more terrible must be around the corner had faded. Stay focused and don't react or fight - the more flippant or anxious she is, the less she feels your concern, which means the more she needs to feel it and the more of it you need to show right then.
2. Listening doesn't mean enduring whatever is said. Don't defend yourself. Reflect by summarizing what she says and asking if you have it right. I have solved many fights by saying "You think because of x and y, my first motive was z?" Sometimes she says "I don't know," or something in anger, or even laughs and says she "guesses that can't be right." Hug. Pause. Tell her you care about her, you don't want her to feel bad, and you wish you had known the effect that behavior would have had if it wasn't your intent. The number one cause of failed communication is that we stop listening, and focus only on our agenda, or that we fear we won't be heard, and that fear can be powerful and dangerous. You can get halfway through listening and disagree with an appraisal of your behavior, then ruin the whole thing by defending yourself. Instead of hearing her, you switched to telling her she's wrong. If a beloved aunt/grandmother/best friend/whatever said you were being selfish and that would stun you long enough to make you reflect, consider that you should do the same if somehow your wife got (whatever appraisal of your behavior) that she did.
3. Take your time. If your attitude is that nothing is more important than your partnership, this will automatically turn into better results because it will be easier for her to be on board when she knows she will be heard. Whether reasonable or not, if she thinks it's finances or else, kid or bankruptcy, you win or I win, everyone loses. It may be a huge mistake to assume she doesn't care about the finances. She may need to be heard and then find her own time to come around. A successful relationship requires you to assume this, though that may be scary. It takes a lot of trust. There is no 100% chance that she will. But there's a lot you can do to help, by becoming more communication-fit yourself, and offering as much trust as you can.
The book Difficult Conversations (Stone, Patton & Heen) of the Harvard Negotiation Project is one of a handful that stuck with me. It's an entire book of difficult habits to learn that take faith and patience but tend to automatically spread to people close to you once they feel you're hearing them and reaching out. I think the classes I took on negotiation were the most helpful of my entire academic career. We are all in situations where we feel we know something well, and someone else doesn't. In partnerships, partners need to know they have our trust before anything else, even if they're asking to do something we think is "obviously" foolish, because the bigger thing for their growth or well-being is not the task, it's having our trust. I can't say tanking your finances is a wise choice, but I can say that some people need to know certain things have priority. Your wife may need to know that not separating from her child has priority if she's terrified that your goals will demand separation. Yes, she may even later decide to when it's not so emotionally fraught. From what I've heard from others posting, the powerful aversion to leaving the child anywhere ever is not likely to last forever.
Anecdote on trust: I was with my SO, and I was very exasperated that she wouldn't let me help with a college class. She was going to fail. I had all the answers. I had taken the class. I knew it inside and out. She didn't want help. I said ok and kissed her and went on my way. She failed and later left college. Her parents were doom and warnings. I said I had faith in her. She told me a few times that knowing she was trusted before failing, and after failing, ultimately proved far more important than the college "task" she was going through but never cared much about in the first place. She tried many new things she was once afraid to because her confidence grew as her ability to trust grew, from being trusted herself. She's now a freelance artist and writer running her own business, does odd part-time jobs, still has anxiety, but long since recovered from depression and dystemia.
"Only Connect."
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My wife has refused to get a job in the whole time we've been together. Now that we have six kids, it's probably better, but before, when we had none, or 1-2, it caused a lot of arguments. She does photography, and pays $150 a month of the rent, which I have to hound her like a bill collector to get. Today is February 12, and I'm still waiting on January's portion to put it into perspective. Meanwhile, she spends her photography money on useless crap. She does get groceries, so I appreciate that.
I've tried to get her to contribute more to the big picture, but she doesn't have any interest.
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Whoa whoa whoa! Your wife is at home with 6 kids, and makes enough money on the side to pay for groceries, and part of the rent, and you're complaining?
I think you're just yanking our chains, right???
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Whoa whoa whoa! Your wife is at home with 6 kids, and makes enough money on the side to pay for groceries, and part of the rent, and you're complaining?
I think you're just yanking our chains, right???
Not complaining at all. It's a great help. Just pointing out that she has a very different view of growing a Stache than I do.
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Okay, it's an interesting situation you have there. Actually it doesn't sound like your wife is on board with FIRE at all? (I haven't followed your story.) Or does she pay lip service to wanting to be frugal, then go crazy at the mall?
I suppose your wife feels like she is doing a good thing, by fulfilling her wish for spendy stuff without dipping into your earnings, whereas you feel that earnings of both parents should go into a common pot that pays for needs and savings first, before going into wants (that's how it goes in my family). I guess it's another case where two wants are going head-to-head: your desire to stop working earlier, and her desire to buy useless crap. Of course your desire sounds more sensible to me, and better for the family, especially if the working parent adds value when home with the family. And in an optimal relationship, both partners would want to do their best for the kids first, then make their spouse happy next, and finally themselves. Maybe it would help to explain to her how her life would get easier if you retired early?
Anyway I am amazed that she has the time for a profitable side gig, with all those kids!
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Anyway I am amazed that she has the time for a profitable side gig, with all those kids!
I am amazed that she has a side gig profitable enough to cover groceries for 8,$150 in rent AND useless crap. I'd be curious to know what fraction of her earnings is actually going to said crap.
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The OP's problem was supposedly that his wife would not accept cut expenses or working, and, according to him, wanted a situation with negative cashflow. Forget FIRE entirely. Negative cashflow.
It is possible the situation was embellished, it's possible the wife merely said "SAH or nothing" and would not thereafter listen to the conversation, it's possible she had a post-partum condition, we have no idea. If, however, she wanted to spend even more money and not work and also stay at home, consequences be damned, it's not monstrous that the OP wanted to discuss the finances, too. The bank will not care for your good reasons.
A lot of goal-oriented guys need to develop a much better delivery on topics where they undervalue the emotional content involved for the other person. No, emotions and rationality are not separate, but emotional content certainly has a higher or lower impact and priority for different people in different situations. Good luck convincing a ravenously starving person to settle down and think carefully. There are leaders who ask about the goal first, and there are leaders who ask about the team first. With a partner, you are always trying to address both enough to reach success and happiness. Compatibility is about communicating even when those priorities don't obviously match, and he's literally asking how to have a discussion. I could understand giving him shit over bias, but not thereafter saying "you should work together" as if he weren't here asking right now how to have a discussion!
What the OP realized is very important. He may be arrogant about it or not - I think we read too much into "rationally discussing" in the thread title, frankly. I think all the title proves is that the OP values rationality. The fact is, he doesn't know how to have that conversation. OP, the recommendations are out there, and I'll try to give you some, because there are entire systems devoted to how to approach those difficult conversations to get better results for both parties. If rationality is your thing, embrace the system!
The sorts of things I'm describing may sound like bullshit to a goal-oriented person who is less impacted by emotion, but you have to overcome that bias, if you have it, to help your wife, and to help your team. Get past your own frustration. Watch "It's Not About the Nail" on Youtube, laugh, acknowledge that others understand your frustration, then MOVE ON and focus on how to heal your partnership, because focusing on your frustration won't do that.
The principles of negotiating start with asking what the other wants, working in good faith to understand the other's wants and needs, asking questions and reflecting so you can help heal emotional panic (which is often built around the fear that the emotional topic won't be addressed satisfactorily), and sharing your own wants and needs as well (that knowledge will hopefully reduce your concern that you won't be heard). Not every marriage can be saved, but many more than are can be.
The limit of therapy is that it's not on your mind enough, and a lot of partners are too likely to hear "listen!" Then, they try listening once because they're following a script, not being empathetic enough, then say "no I tried that and it didn't work." Learn about communication (it's a lot more complex than "talk a lot"). Go to therapy and ask for follow-up books. Tell your wife about techniques you learned to try on yourselves to solve your problems and make you stronger. Therapy as a team translates directly into teamwork if both parties let it.
It may be that your concern that your needs won't be met is hurting your ability to reach out to your wife successfully. You have to prioritize reaching out to her first. Emotional panic cannot be talked through as long as the cause is still there. You wouldn't chat about someone's 401k while they were dangling off a roof. Consider the emotional content of separating from the child to be, for your wife, of similar gravity, whether you experience that gravity or not. She may expect or need "JESUS honey are you ok?" (and she may need a lot of time). If you respond instead "Yes. /sigh. Yes, yes, I REMEMBER, you told me already that you're hanging from the roof, I do listen, but if we can just talk about our finances for a minute...".
Anxiety and fear, like hunger, are not easy to negotiate with. If you can't reach your wife through what you consider totally irrational behavior, the first step is probably HEARING why she is so emotional. Terror that you won't be heard is an easy way to begin ignoring your partnership. Are you doing this? You are already afraid she is doing it to you, so you may well have picked up dismissive behaviors yourself. You can't have a conversation where your objective is to get to what you want, even if what you want is totally rational and important, and learning to do that is hard. It won't matter who was right if you're divorced.
1. Start with concern about her. Talk in whatever setting would be least likely to cause additional stress. By request, I have even started conversations by email for someone with high anxiety, which I initially was totally against, but they helped the person significantly. We would pick them up in person when the emotional impact that something much more terrible must be around the corner had faded. Stay focused and don't react or fight - the more flippant or anxious she is, the less she feels your concern, which means the more she needs to feel it and the more of it you need to show right then.
2. Listening doesn't mean enduring whatever is said. Don't defend yourself. Reflect by summarizing what she says and asking if you have it right. I have solved many fights by saying "You think because of x and y, my first motive was z?" Sometimes she says "I don't know," or something in anger, or even laughs and says she "guesses that can't be right." Hug. Pause. Tell her you care about her, you don't want her to feel bad, and you wish you had known the effect that behavior would have had if it wasn't your intent. The number one cause of failed communication is that we stop listening, and focus only on our agenda, or that we fear we won't be heard, and that fear can be powerful and dangerous. You can get halfway through listening and disagree with an appraisal of your behavior, then ruin the whole thing by defending yourself. Instead of hearing her, you switched to telling her she's wrong. If a beloved aunt/grandmother/best friend/whatever said you were being selfish and that would stun you long enough to make you reflect, consider that you should do the same if somehow your wife got (whatever appraisal of your behavior) that she did.
3. Take your time. If your attitude is that nothing is more important than your partnership, this will automatically turn into better results because it will be easier for her to be on board when she knows she will be heard. Whether reasonable or not, if she thinks it's finances or else, kid or bankruptcy, you win or I win, everyone loses. It may be a huge mistake to assume she doesn't care about the finances. She may need to be heard and then find her own time to come around. A successful relationship requires you to assume this, though that may be scary. It takes a lot of trust. There is no 100% chance that she will. But there's a lot you can do to help, by becoming more communication-fit yourself, and offering as much trust as you can.
The book Difficult Conversations (Stone, Patton & Heen) of the Harvard Negotiation Project is one of a handful that stuck with me. It's an entire book of difficult habits to learn that take faith and patience but tend to automatically spread to people close to you once they feel you're hearing them and reaching out. I think the classes I took on negotiation were the most helpful of my entire academic career. We are all in situations where we feel we know something well, and someone else doesn't. In partnerships, partners need to know they have our trust before anything else, even if they're asking to do something we think is "obviously" foolish, because the bigger thing for their growth or well-being is not the task, it's having our trust. I can't say tanking your finances is a wise choice, but I can say that some people need to know certain things have priority. Your wife may need to know that not separating from her child has priority if she's terrified that your goals will demand separation. Yes, she may even later decide to when it's not so emotionally fraught. From what I've heard from others posting, the powerful aversion to leaving the child anywhere ever is not likely to last forever.
Anecdote on trust: I was with my SO, and I was very exasperated that she wouldn't let me help with a college class. She was going to fail. I had all the answers. I had taken the class. I knew it inside and out. She didn't want help. I said ok and kissed her and went on my way. She failed and later left college. Her parents were doom and warnings. I said I had faith in her. She told me a few times that knowing she was trusted before failing, and after failing, ultimately proved far more important than the college "task" she was going through but never cared much about in the first place. She tried many new things she was once afraid to because her confidence grew as her ability to trust grew, from being trusted herself. She's now a freelance artist and writer running her own business, does odd part-time jobs, still has anxiety, but long since recovered from depression and dystemia.
"Only Connect."
Where's the like button when you need one?
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Where's the like button when you need one?
Facebook.
:)
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Where's the like button when you need one?
Facebook.
:)
NOOOoOOOOOoooOooooo!!!! I refuse to set foot on that filthy no-man's land.
Ok, how about this:
Where's the facial hair rating system when you need one?
:)
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Wow this discussion has gotten really intense. Where's OP? I need an update!
And sixkids, I must know, what % of her side gig income is going to trinkets?
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My wife has refused to get a job in the whole time we've been together. Now that we have six kids, it's probably better, but before, when we had none, or 1-2, it caused a lot of arguments. She does photography, and pays $150 a month of the rent, which I have to hound her like a bill collector to get. Today is February 12, and I'm still waiting on January's portion to put it into perspective. Meanwhile, she spends her photography money on useless crap. She does get groceries, so I appreciate that.
I've tried to get her to contribute more to the big picture, but she doesn't have any interest.
So why did you have six kids with her? I'm always amazed when people come to me getting divorced and tell me their whole sordid tale. It usually starts "she refused to ___ from the beginning." Yet they still got married, they still had kids. Things usually get worse post kids yet they keep having more kids. They can never really tell me why. Were you hoping you would change her? It never works. I'm hoping instead that you decided this is just something you live with.
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Where's the like button when you need one?
Facebook.
:)
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/07/7-ways-to-be-insufferable-on-facebook.html
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Where's the like button when you need one?
Facebook.
:)
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/07/7-ways-to-be-insufferable-on-facebook.html
I missed the connection to this thread?
But my reaction reading that was to read the first status post it's based on, go "wow, cool" and then be told it was annoying.
Huh. I mean, I guess it could be? But why take a negative opinion, when you could do a positive one? It seemed like the guy had a great year. I was happy for him, and I got some ideas of things I might like to do to make my life better.
Why go "ughz annoying bragging" instead of "oh cool, inspiring list"?
People nowadays are too quick to turn a negative view to every situation.
I think I'd have liked that WBW post quite a bit when it came out 3-4 years ago. Now it makes me sad.
Be positive, people! :)
EDIT: Just read the comments. Seems like a lot of people agree.
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Where's the like button when you need one?
Facebook.
:)
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/07/7-ways-to-be-insufferable-on-facebook.html
I missed the connection to this thread?
But my reaction reading that was to read the first status post it's based on, go "wow, cool" and then be told it was annoying.
Huh. I mean, I guess it could be? But why take a negative opinion, when you could do a positive one? It seemed like the guy had a great year. I was happy for him, and I got some ideas of things I might like to do to make my life better.
Why go "ughz annoying bragging" instead of "oh cool, inspiring list"?
People nowadays are too quick to turn a negative view to every situation.
I think I'd have liked that WBW post quite a bit when it came out 3-4 years ago. Now it makes me sad.
Be positive, people! :)
EDIT: Just read the comments. Seems like a lot of people agree.
Haha, no connection to this thread. You mentioning Facebook just reminded me of that article. I think that was my first WBW article and I really couldn't stop laughing the first time I read it. I immediately went through my Facebook feed to see all the ways I was being insufferable and just started laughing harder.
The fact that it made you sad makes me think there might be something wrong with me like maybe I have a personality disorder or something. I'm gonna go see a therapist and I'll get back to you on this ;)
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I was all set to keep working after having a baby but after actually going back to work I changed my mind! First, the job I came back to was NOT the same job I left. It was grunt work, below my pay grade and job level, and I was given new "rules" to follow that were highly uncomfortable for a new mom to deal with. If my job had been the same one I'd left, it might be a different story. (I should have talked to HR earlier... when I told them all the stuff that had changed after I got back from maternity leave the HR rep was horrified.)
Secondly, leaving my 4-month-old for 5 days a week was just impossible. There's an emotional, hormonal thing going on that spiraled into depressive thoughts of "why the heck am I here doing this stupid meaningless work when I could be at home with my baby?" So I negotiated with the boss and worked part time for a couple of months before quitting altogether. Thank goodness my husband's job is good enough to pay the bills! Savings has slowed a little but his earnings have increased since I quit and our stocks have done well so we're doing just fine!
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I know this post is four months old now and the OP probably already made some decisions but there is evidence that having a parent care for the child in the first year of life is cognitively beneficial. After that there could be some cognitive benefit if the child goes to childcare in years 2-3. There are so many factors but maybe there could be a compromise to stay home the first year. I wrote a blog post about balancing child care and career.
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I don't think there is any easy answer here. There are so many variables.
- Number of kids.
- Is day care needed? If so, the cost of daycare and what is available?
- What career will the 'stay at home parent' be leaving?
- And the list goes on and on....
The answer is that there is no answer...it all depends on your situation.
Using us as an example...we both had/have great jobs and made the difficult decision to put both of our kids in daycare quite early. Luckily, we were able to find an absolutely awesome home day care situation for the first few years. Even with that, there was some guilt involved...I think that is unavoidable. I'm glad to say that our kids (18 and 15) have turned out great so far. I assure you...regardless of the decision you make, everything will be a distant memory when they reach their teen years.
Oh, and don't listen to what others are telling you about it...most of them don't know your situation at all and don't know WTF they are talking about. We were getting opinions from people that didn't even have kids!
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I know this post is four months old now and the OP probably already made some decisions but there is evidence that having a parent care for the child in the first year of life is cognitively beneficial. After that there could be some cognitive benefit if the child goes to childcare in years 2-3. There are so many factors but maybe there could be a compromise to stay home the first year. I wrote a blog post about balancing child care and career.
Thanks for the input High Income Parent and everyone else.
Wife has been working for about 2 months, averaging 3 days working from home and 2 in the office. She's feeling some big time guilt that she isn't spending quality time with our daughter (we pay my Mom to watch her at our house while my wife works) and she is really pushing toward quitting work and staying at home for a few years. The other option is to find a less stressful job that is exclusively work from home. Several factors are contributing to this desire:
1) Not feeling like she is as "connected" with our daughter as when she was on maternity leave
2) Her job is extremely stressful and it's hard for her to not think of the baby as an inconvenience when she just wants to relax and wind down
3) Some territorial issues with my Mom, she doesn't want the baby to have a closer bond than with her
4) (perhaps) some mild post-partum depression coupled with common "mom-guilt"
The bad news: If we end up going down to one income, undoubtedly it will affect our saving and investing. Instead of socking away ~$7,500/month (2 401k's + company match + $4K/month) we will be stretching to hit $4,000/month (1 401k + company match + $2K/month). If she never goes back to work, I'll be putting in an extra 5 years to make up for the lost income (2030 vs. 2025)
The good news: We already have $250K in investments that will continue to work for us. Dropping down to one income will (I think) make us eligible to deduct contributions to her IRA (as a non-active participant spouse) and shield some more dollars from Uncle Sam. If she only takes 5 years off work and gets back into it close to her previous salary, we will only be adding 2 years to our FI/RE date (2027 vs. 2025).
Conclusions: It really sucks that I might have to work an extra 2 years but I suppose retiring at 42 isn't much worse than retiring at 40. Happy wife, happy life is the word on the street.
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I know this post is four months old now and the OP probably already made some decisions but there is evidence that having a parent care for the child in the first year of life is cognitively beneficial. After that there could be some cognitive benefit if the child goes to childcare in years 2-3. There are so many factors but maybe there could be a compromise to stay home the first year. I wrote a blog post about balancing child care and career.
Thanks for the input High Income Parent and everyone else.
Wife has been working for about 2 months, averaging 3 days working from home and 2 in the office. She's feeling some big time guilt that she isn't spending quality time with our daughter (we pay my Mom to watch her at our house while my wife works) and she is really pushing toward quitting work and staying at home for a few years. The other option is to find a less stressful job that is exclusively work from home. Several factors are contributing to this desire:
1) Not feeling like she is as "connected" with our daughter as when she was on maternity leave
2) Her job is extremely stressful and it's hard for her to not think of the baby as an inconvenience when she just wants to relax and wind down
3) Some territorial issues with my Mom, she doesn't want the baby to have a closer bond than with her
4) (perhaps) some mild post-partum depression coupled with common "mom-guilt"
The bad news: If we end up going down to one income, undoubtedly it will affect our saving and investing. Instead of socking away ~$7,500/month (2 401k's + company match + $4K/month) we will be stretching to hit $4,000/month (1 401k + company match + $2K/month). If she never goes back to work, I'll be putting in an extra 5 years to make up for the lost income (2030 vs. 2025)
The good news: We already have $250K in investments that will continue to work for us. Dropping down to one income will (I think) make us eligible to deduct contributions to her IRA (as a non-active participant spouse) and shield some more dollars from Uncle Sam. If she only takes 5 years off work and gets back into it close to her previous salary, we will only be adding 2 years to our FI/RE date (2027 vs. 2025).
Conclusions: It really sucks that I might have to work an extra 2 years but I suppose retiring at 42 isn't much worse than retiring at 40. Happy wife, happy life is the word on the street.
The bolded items:
Have her get checked for PPD if she hasn't been.
Seeing the baby as an inconvenience when she wants to wind down. This is normal. And I don't know if it completely goes away. There are only 24 hours a day. Your need, as an adult, to "wind down" doesn't go away. My kids are 11 and 4 and I still feel this way sometimes. I *need* time without kids talking/ grabbing/ needing. So she should schedule this time, knowing that once the kids hit about age 4 it gets easier to get that time.
My advice is be flexible! Happy wife can make for an overall more relaxed home life.
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Hey Cheapass - just wanted to say, I thought the tone of your most recent post sounded much more cooperative and focused on hearing your wife's concerns instead of convincing her to be rational. So really good job listening to some of the excellent advice here on how to communicate more effectively.
One thing to keep in mind: I think many here have a tendency to see the 'Stache as the be-all, end-all. I tend that way myself. :-) Ergo, actions that increase the 'Stache are "rational"; actions that don't are irrational.
(As an aside to my aside, that is the fundamental problem with referring to your argument as "rational": it means, by definition, you view her argument as *irrational* and therefore less worthy. Which immediately shuts down any reasoned discussion before you even have a chance to get it going. Because I guarantee you, your DW thinks she is being just as "rational" as you are.)
But the key to keep in mind is that the ultimate goal is maximum lifetime happiness -- money is just a tool we use to get there. But that doesn't mean it is the only tool, or even the best one; sometimes what you need is less money and more time. And sometimes, making money actually gets in the way of happiness.
Example: I read another post just yesterday about a guy who spent his 20s chasing the dream of playing pro sports. Say you had a choice at 22 to sign with a minor league team for $50K/yr, or jump into some big-power job for $200K/yr. If you are looking to maximize money, you choose Door #2. But making that choice means giving up a lifelong dream -- you can't delay it, you can't say, well, I'll make $200Kyr for a couple of years and build by 'stache and then go for it -- you chase it now or it's gone. So which is the better choice? I'd argue that it's your once-in-a-lifetime shot. Because if you aren't living to take advantage of once-in-a-lifetime opportunities as they arise, what exactly are you living for?
The point is really that each day you have is your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, for both of you. And so you both need to figure out which choice will maximize total family happiness for both of you, without requiring either partner to give up too much. For you, the gut reaction is for Current Yous to suck it up and sock it away for the Future Yous to kick back and enjoy, because that's how you see the world and your priorities. For her, the gut reaction is for Future You to work longer so Current Her can stay home with the baby, because she is focusing on the once-in-a-lifetime aspect of This day with This child. So whichever decision you make, whatever compromise you reach, one or both of you are going to give up some portion of your maximum possible individual lifetime happiness. That is brave and good and a key component of being part of a team, part of a family -- it's what we do for people we love. But it is also difficult and hard and a sacrifice you are making for the overall good of the team, and so it needs to be acknowledged and appreciated, not argued away as "irrational," dismissed as "selfish," or whatever.
BTW, I realize this sounds like I am taking your wife's side. I'm not -- this is totally a decision for the both of you to make together. I'd argue that if you decide she should stay home, that she needs to appreciate your sacrifice on your FIRE date, as much as you need to appreciate what she is giving up by continuing to work. Personally, I think much more like you and decided to keep working post-kids. But I did it knowing that I had DH's full support to make things work no matter what I decided to do, and I offer the same to him. And that is really the most important thing you guys have to offer each other.
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Great perspective Laura, thank you. It's all a time vs. money trade off, now vs. future. I like the analogy about the baseball player. I applied to be an astronaut last year understanding that it was a 1 in a million chance and that I would make less money.
I think what helped me come to terms with it is that she is totally willing to go back to work once our kid(s) are in school, and she made the promise that it would happen. What also helped me to come to terms with it is the fact that with that agreement (off work 5 years w/ TIGHT budget, then back to work) we are only delaying FI/RE 2 years. Maybe we can even meet our original 8 year goal if our house appreciates or I get more than cost of living raises for the next 10 years.
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Bub is on his way in July. #1.
We discussed and after the 12 weeks off, we will put him in daycare and my wife will return to work 2 days a week/26 hours weekly (nurse).
She will make enough money to cover daycare and allow us to aggressively save/pay off debts. That is all I could ask for. At some point in the future when debts are lessened, I wouldn't mind having her stay home with bub.
I actually have this forum to thank for getting me into the mindset to craft my financials in a much better way and allow me to have my desires in life. I may not retire at 40, but I will be able to live my life how I want.
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We discussed and after the 12 weeks off, we will put him in daycare and my wife will return to work 2 days a week/26 hours weekly (nurse).
Sounds like a great plan, but be prepared that the plan may change once that baby is here and motherly instinct kicks in.
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Bub is on his way in July. #1.
We discussed and after the 12 weeks off, we will put him in daycare and my wife will return to work 2 days a week/26 hours weekly (nurse).
She will make enough money to cover daycare and allow us to aggressively save/pay off debts. That is all I could ask for. At some point in the future when debts are lessened, I wouldn't mind having her stay home with bub.
I actually have this forum to thank for getting me into the mindset to craft my financials in a much better way and allow me to have my desires in life. I may not retire at 40, but I will be able to live my life how I want.
I had some neighbors a number of years ago that did this. Wife was a nurse, worked 2 days per week only. In fact, she chose to work at a hospital a 45 minute drive away (instead of the one a 5 minute drive away) because they would
1. allow her to work 2 days a week
2. did not force her to work nights
3. gave her a regular schedule.
This allowed them to use grandma care for 2 days a week.
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My wife has been a stay at home mom for 4 years. Since then we have added another kid. I'll be honest I actually like her being home. I work weird hours and travel a lot for work. The flip side to that is I'm also home for two or three days at a time. It's nice being a family and spending time together when everyone else is at work or school. Honestly we didn't even notice the lost income when she quite her job. Luckily I've gotten a promotion and several nice raises and between not buying gas, lunch, work clothes, nor paying for day care I think it's actually a wash. Now we can't wait till the little ones are in school. We laugh all the time how great it's going to be to go to lunch, watch a movie, or even have sex during the day when they off at school.
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I know this post is four months old now and the OP probably already made some decisions but there is evidence that having a parent care for the child in the first year of life is cognitively beneficial. After that there could be some cognitive benefit if the child goes to childcare in years 2-3. There are so many factors but maybe there could be a compromise to stay home the first year. I wrote a blog post about balancing child care and career.
Thanks for the input High Income Parent and everyone else.
Wife has been working for about 2 months, averaging 3 days working from home and 2 in the office. She's feeling some big time guilt that she isn't spending quality time with our daughter (we pay my Mom to watch her at our house while my wife works) and she is really pushing toward quitting work and staying at home for a few years. The other option is to find a less stressful job that is exclusively work from home. Several factors are contributing to this desire:
1) Not feeling like she is as "connected" with our daughter as when she was on maternity leave
2) Her job is extremely stressful and it's hard for her to not think of the baby as an inconvenience when she just wants to relax and wind down
3) Some territorial issues with my Mom, she doesn't want the baby to have a closer bond than with her
4) (perhaps) some mild post-partum depression coupled with common "mom-guilt"
The bad news: If we end up going down to one income, undoubtedly it will affect our saving and investing. Instead of socking away ~$7,500/month (2 401k's + company match + $4K/month) we will be stretching to hit $4,000/month (1 401k + company match + $2K/month). If she never goes back to work, I'll be putting in an extra 5 years to make up for the lost income (2030 vs. 2025)
The good news: We already have $250K in investments that will continue to work for us. Dropping down to one income will (I think) make us eligible to deduct contributions to her IRA (as a non-active participant spouse) and shield some more dollars from Uncle Sam. If she only takes 5 years off work and gets back into it close to her previous salary, we will only be adding 2 years to our FI/RE date (2027 vs. 2025).
Conclusions: It really sucks that I might have to work an extra 2 years but I suppose retiring at 42 isn't much worse than retiring at 40. Happy wife, happy life is the word on the street.
I'm a wife, and I find "happy wife, happy life" to be condescending and unfair. My happiness is no more important or valuable than my partner's.
It seems like there may be room here for compromise. If her #1 priority is being a SAHM, what is she willing to change/sacrifce to make that happen? Can she plan to cook more and dedicate more time to shopping sales, cutting groceries by $100 per month? Can she start cloth diapering, which may have significant savings over time (especially if you plan on a second, which I believe you said you did)? Is she maybe willing to stop with one kid rather than adding another--and the associated expenses--in a couple years (if that's something you too are willing to consider)? Downgrade her vehicle? Move to a smaller home? Cut spending on both her clothes and the baby's, as well as toys, perhaps to the point that nearly everything is thrift? Fire the gardener? (Some of these may or may not apply.) Pick up some side hustle, either immediately or when the baby is 6/9/12 months old?
To me, that's the way to approach these things. "Okay, it's clear that X is really, really important to you, so I want to make that happen. Let's find a way to do that that still honors the things that are important to me, too. You don't want to work now, and I don't want to work for 8 more years. What can we do to make both of those things possible? If we can trim our budget by $x (in addition to the savings on day care, wife's commute, and other things that will naturally decrease if she quits working) or increase income by that much, or some combination of the two, then I'd only have to work 6.5 more years (as opposed to 5 if she keeps working and 8 if you don't change anything other than losing her income, or whatever the actual numbers are), then it seems we are both getting what is most important to us. So what from the budget can be trimmed if you start SAH? Is there some super part time work you can pick up, perhaps from home? Expenses that can be cut? And yes, that may mean some slightly uncomfortable sacrifice on your part, Wife, and I understand that, but I'm hoping that if we each sacrifice a little, we can find a middle ground so the whole financial burden of this decision for our family isn't covered by my working longer."
To me, that's how partnerships work. A team isn't really about one partner's happiness = success.
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I'm a wife, and I find "happy wife, happy life" to be condescending and unfair. My happiness is no more important or valuable than my partner's.
To me, that's how partnerships work. A team isn't really about one partner's happiness = success.
Oi, thank you. That phrase does all parties a disservice.
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I stayed home with my 3 kids until the youngest was 5 and went to school f.t. I then went to college and at 34 got my first professional job. When I was asked what I did before I said raised kids and went to college. It was not a problem and I had plenty of job offers. I was out of the work force for 15 years. Yes people may have to take a pay cut or train for a more relevant job but they can get back in. I think this is much easier if the person is still married because they have the other spouse to help with finances and with picking up the kids from school, etc. As a divorced parent where do you find the time to do everything yourself for the home, kids, work and go back to school. These are the people that are caught in a very hard spot and I really feel for them.
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We discussed and after the 12 weeks off, we will put him in daycare and my wife will return to work 2 days a week/26 hours weekly (nurse).
Sounds like a great plan, but be prepared that the plan may change once that baby is here and motherly instinct kicks in.
Oh yes, yes, I am preparing for that as well. I wouldn't necessarily hate the idea of her staying at home with the bub and taking care of the house as that has a $ and emotional value to it as well.
With her working the 26 hours, it will cover daycare and a few other bills AND MAYBE be able to max out her 401k (that's the dream). As long as she is just covering daycare and the one other big bill, we will be just fine.
However, I think my wife will get bored being at the house that long, honestly, I think two days may fall in between the optimal range and not enough work.
I had some neighbors a number of years ago that did this. Wife was a nurse, worked 2 days per week only. In fact, she chose to work at a hospital a 45 minute drive away (instead of the one a 5 minute drive away) because they would
1. allow her to work 2 days a week
2. did not force her to work nights
3. gave her a regular schedule.
This allowed them to use grandma care for 2 days a week.
That is almost exactly what the plan is. Her hospital is unfortunately 40 minutes away, but it should fulfill the 3 boxes you laid out there, 2 days, no overnights, regular schedule.
Side note, nurses get paid like dogs for what they do. It is a definite grind on new nurses, but you can easily pull in $100k+ with call and OT. Still, absolute shit pay for the amount of work.
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My wife and I had a baby 2 months ago which means she is approaching the end of her 12 week maternity leave. Prior to the child, we were all set with our FIRE plan which consisted of both of us working for another 7-8 years and calling it quits at age 40 so we could be free to do whatever we want. My parents live 10 minutes away and my Mom is very interested in babysitting during the day. That put our minds at ease to have someone who actually gives a shit taking care of our kid.
Well..... I believe the mommy instinct has kicked in to some degree. She has started talking about how nobody will take care of our kid like she will, how hard it will be to leave our daughter, how stressful her job is, all the things she doesn't like about my parents, etc.
Has anyone experienced something similar? I'm trying to respect her emotions but redirect the conversation to the more "rational" sense (i.e. we shouldn't sacrifice long-term security for short-term comfort, her and I were both raised by people other than our moms, we have the unique opportunity to become wealthy at a young age, etc.)
I remember that point clearly. Working made sense logically, and we too had a relative who was eager to babysit for free ... but as time ticked down to the last month, the last week, the last day ... it was hard to imagine walking out the door and leaving the baby.
Knowing I was torn, my husband said the best possible thing to me: He told me to go back and commit to three months. He said that after that time, if I wasn't happy, if the baby wasn't thriving, if things just weren't working out ... I could quit then, knowing that we'd given it a try. It was genius. I didn't actually have to make that decision BEFORE going back to work. I could give it a try. By going back to work, I wasn't committing to working for the next 20-30 years. I had a job I liked, a job I knew.
Things were FINE. The baby thrived, as did the one who came along three years later. We were able to save when we were still young. Oh, we had bumps in the road: Sick kid days were an issue. It was tough for me when my husband went out of town. But overall, things were great. If I were back in that spot again, I'd make the same choice again.
In contrast, I think my friends who stayed home for the typical 5-8 years had more trouble moving back into the work force.
So, my advice is the same as that my husband gave me years ago: Encourage her to go back ... commit to a couple months so that you're giving it a good try ... and then have this conversation again. If you decide that her staying home is the best option for your family, nothing's going to be damaged by having tried it for a couple months.
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I'm a wife, and I find "happy wife, happy life" to be condescending and unfair. My happiness is no more important or valuable than my partner's.
Sure, in an ideal world those in relationships would have equal input into decision making and no doubt there are many couples where that's the case.
But I know many couples who, when one partner wants something, they will constantly nag and complain until the other partner just is tired of hearing about it and finally gives in regardless of the financial or other consequences. In my experience it's not the men doing the nagging, they typically don't make the other person's life miserable if they don't get their way initially.
Again, this is not always the case and your mileage may vary, but there seems to be a clear bias between the sexes and thus the phrase was born.
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Side note, nurses get paid like dogs for what they do. It is a definite grind on new nurses, but you can easily pull in $100k+ with call and OT. Still, absolute shit pay for the amount of work.
Yup. Though I have a friend who opted to work 1 week a month. She'd fly out, stay with her parents in the other side of the state for a week. Work 7 days straight. Fly home.
One week a month, which, hours-wise was like 2 weeks of a regular work week.
$98k a year. Not too shabby.
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I'm a wife, and I find "happy wife, happy life" to be condescending and unfair. My happiness is no more important or valuable than my partner's.
Sure, in an ideal world those in relationships would have equal input into decision making and no doubt there are many couples where that's the case.
But I know many couples who, when one partner wants something, they will constantly nag and complain until the other partner just is tired of hearing about it and finally gives in regardless of the financial or other consequences. In my experience it's not the men doing the nagging, they typically don't make the other person's life miserable if they don't get their way initially.
Again, this is not always the case and your mileage may vary, but there seems to be a clear bias between the sexes and thus the phrase was born.
Hard disagree. For all your examples of a "nagging wife" I could bring up examples of "controlling, abusive husbands." There are shitty behaviors across all categories of humans.
Best to keep tired gender stereotypes out of your thinking as much as possible, especially when raising children. Don't want to pass that BS on to the next generation.
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Sure, in an ideal world those in relationships would have equal input into decision making and no doubt there are many couples where that's the case.
But I know many couples who, when one partner wants something, they will constantly nag and complain until the other partner just is tired of hearing about it and finally gives in regardless of the financial or other consequences. In my experience it's not the men doing the nagging, they typically don't make the other person's life miserable if they don't get their way initially.
You're describing a power imbalance playing out. It's not even true your "nag" has "all the power," because there would be no need to nag. Sometimes, addressing the real or perceived power imbalance can help this. Sometimes it's just one or both parties' insecurity.
Villanelle was talking about relationships as partnerships, though, and that they should be partnerships, not that they all are. In your anecdote, the relationship suffers from not being a partnership.
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I'm a wife, and I find "happy wife, happy life" to be condescending and unfair. My happiness is no more important or valuable than my partner's.
Sure, in an ideal world those in relationships would have equal input into decision making and no doubt there are many couples where that's the case.
But I know many couples who, when one partner wants something, they will constantly nag and complain until the other partner just is tired of hearing about it and finally gives in regardless of the financial or other consequences. In my experience it's not the men doing the nagging, they typically don't make the other person's life miserable if they don't get their way initially.
Again, this is not always the case and your mileage may vary, but there seems to be a clear bias between the sexes and thus the phrase was born.
And every time the phrase is used, it perpetuates that bias. I've certainly seen relationships where women's needs are considered less important than men's needs, so I disagree that it tends to go one way. She wants new curtains and he thinks that a frivolous expense, and then goes and buys a boat. She wants to go apple picking this weekend, but he'd rather hunt. Or just... she wants Italian, he wants burgers, so they get burgers. I think it's just as common that unequal relationships have power ceded to men as to women. I think it's more that when men are the tyrants, they are strong and masculine, and when women do it, they are nags. But regardless, every time someone utters that phrase, the contribute to an acceptance that one partner's needs are more important than the others. And regardless of the sex or gender of each partner, I think that's unhealthy and unfair, which is way I call it out. I realize there are those who don't feel equality in a relationship is even the goal or ideal (those who think men are inherently the leaders and women should obey, mostly), but for those who at least think it's the ideal, when we use that stupid phrase or express similar sentiments (favoring either gender), we contribute the the culture that accepts or even expects them.
As someone who seems to agree that it's an unfair standard, I would think that you'd be happy to see it called out.
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I'm a wife, and I find "happy wife, happy life" to be condescending and unfair. My happiness is no more important or valuable than my partner's.
Sure, in an ideal world those in relationships would have equal input into decision making and no doubt there are many couples where that's the case.
But I know many couples who, when one partner wants something, they will constantly nag and complain until the other partner just is tired of hearing about it and finally gives in regardless of the financial or other consequences. In my experience it's not the men doing the nagging, they typically don't make the other person's life miserable if they don't get their way initially.
Again, this is not always the case and your mileage may vary, but there seems to be a clear bias between the sexes and thus the phrase was born.
In MY experience, it's mostly the male half of the couple that does this (my parents and many peer couples). So there ya go...
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I'm a wife, and I find "happy wife, happy life" to be condescending and unfair. My happiness is no more important or valuable than my partner's.
Sure, in an ideal world those in relationships would have equal input into decision making and no doubt there are many couples where that's the case.
But I know many couples who, when one partner wants something, they will constantly nag and complain until the other partner just is tired of hearing about it and finally gives in regardless of the financial or other consequences. In my experience it's not the men doing the nagging, they typically don't make the other person's life miserable if they don't get their way initially.
Again, this is not always the case and your mileage may vary, but there seems to be a clear bias between the sexes and thus the phrase was born.
Hard disagree. For all your examples of a "nagging wife" I could bring up examples of "controlling, abusive husbands." There are shitty behaviors across all categories of humans.
Best to keep tired gender stereotypes out of your thinking as much as possible, especially when raising children. Don't want to pass that BS on to the next generation.
Well said. +1 to this whole post.
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I know this post is four months old now and the OP probably already made some decisions but there is evidence that having a parent care for the child in the first year of life is cognitively beneficial. After that there could be some cognitive benefit if the child goes to childcare in years 2-3. There are so many factors but maybe there could be a compromise to stay home the first year. I wrote a blog post about balancing child care and career.
Citations please
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
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If she only takes 5 years off work and gets back into it close to her previous salary, we will only be adding 2 years to our FI/RE date (2027 vs. 2025).
Conclusions: It really sucks that I might have to work an extra 2 years but I suppose retiring at 42 isn't much worse than retiring at 40. Happy wife, happy life is the word on the street.
I'm late to the game here, but I would not count on her getting back in anywhere close to her previous salary after 5 years off. I've been off 3.5, and having difficulty getting back in even at 75% of my previous modest salary, with an additional degree in tow at that.
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I know this post is four months old now and the OP probably already made some decisions but there is evidence that having a parent care for the child in the first year of life is cognitively beneficial. After that there could be some cognitive benefit if the child goes to childcare in years 2-3. There are so many factors but maybe there could be a compromise to stay home the first year. I wrote a blog post about balancing child care and career.
Citations please
+1. Would appreciate, especially on the latter claim, but both would be good to know. :)
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I don't know if this is possible for you but I work form 7-2 and come home and then my husband leaves for work. It's not without drawbacks we don't spend much time together and I often feel like a single parent. However we don't have to pay for daycare and they always have a parent.
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I'm so over working outside the home. I may be a bit stircrazy at home, but I'm so over the juggling!
I've been turning myself into a SAHM by having my DH slowly take over my out of the home family business responsibilities. It's just too much hassle trying to run around and take care of small children.
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My wife and I had a baby 2 months ago which means she is approaching the end of her 12 week maternity leave. Prior to the child, we were all set with our FIRE plan which consisted of both of us working for another 7-8 years and calling it quits at age 40 so we could be free to do whatever we want. My parents live 10 minutes away and my Mom is very interested in babysitting during the day. That put our minds at ease to have someone who actually gives a shit taking care of our kid.
Well..... I believe the mommy instinct has kicked in to some degree. She has started talking about how nobody will take care of our kid like she will, how hard it will be to leave our daughter, how stressful her job is, all the things she doesn't like about my parents, etc.
Has anyone experienced something similar? I'm trying to respect her emotions but redirect the conversation to the more "rational" sense (i.e. we shouldn't sacrifice long-term security for short-term comfort, her and I were both raised by people other than our moms, we have the unique opportunity to become wealthy at a young age, etc.)
First, this is common. As an example, my mother-in-law didn't want kids and had a high-flying banking career. Then she decided she wanted kids and would go back to work after leave. Then she had her first kid (my wife), took one look at her, and said she could never go back to work. People change, and it can happen rapidly. They still retired in their 40s, largely due to working/investing throughout the 80's and 90's (lucky bastards).
My wife, on the other hand, said she wanted a kid, said she wanted to take leave and then go back to work. And that's what she did.
So my advice is: you just have to let your wife figure it out. Having a stay-at-home-parent is great. In a few more months or a year, she may start to go crazy and want to go back to work. Or not. It'll work out either way. I just hope you like your career :)
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I just hope you like your career :)
I don't, lol. I mean it's not horrible but it's just a paycheck. There's literally a thousand things I would rather be doing than sitting in a cubicle.
Thanks for the comments though.
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Reviving this dead thread to say that as a husband who is going through issues right now with his wife due to the exact same issue as OP, it was encouraging to read so many different viewpoints from mothers and fathers alike.
I can look back and realize that I have made some serious mistakes in my handling of the situation. Right before I wrote this forum post, I texted my wife and apologized for not handling things as well as I should have.
We're on week 10 of her 12 week mat leave (stupid short in my opinion, but you know, MURICA), and we're interviewing nannies today. She's committing to at least going back to work with the understanding that it's easier to go back then quit than it is to quit then go back. If she quits, then it means an instant lifestyle change (no eating out, no cable, cheaper phones, etc.) and dialing back 401k to company match only for me. Even then we're still cash flow negative, so I will probably have to get a second job and we'll explore selling our newly purchased house, among other things.
OP i wish you the best in continuing to figure things out!
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Reviving this dead thread to say that as a husband who is going through issues right now with his wife due to the exact same issue as OP, it was encouraging to read so many different viewpoints from mothers and fathers alike.
I can look back and realize that I have made some serious mistakes in my handling of the situation. Right before I wrote this forum post, I texted my wife and apologized for not handling things as well as I should have.
We're on week 10 of her 12 week mat leave (stupid short in my opinion, but you know, MURICA), and we're interviewing nannies today. She's committing to at least going back to work with the understanding that it's easier to go back then quit than it is to quit then go back. If she quits, then it means an instant lifestyle change (no eating out, no cable, cheaper phones, etc.) and dialing back 401k to company match only for me. Even then we're still cash flow negative, so I will probably have to get a second job and we'll explore selling our newly purchased house, among other things.
OP i wish you the best in continuing to figure things out!
Depending on your wife's job and how flexible her company is, they may consider letting her drop to part-time for awhile. After my first was born, I returned to work after a 6 mo mat leave (yes, 3 mo is soooo short). We were having problems with her daycare so I asked to drop to part time until I could get something better put together. I worked part time for 6 months until I set up a nanny share with a friend. I'm pretty sure my company got the good end of that deal because I worked my butt off when I was there and did nearly the same amount of work in 5/8ths of the time (I was working 25 hrs/wk).
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Reviving this dead thread to say that as a husband who is going through issues right now with his wife due to the exact same issue as OP, it was encouraging to read so many different viewpoints from mothers and fathers alike.
I can look back and realize that I have made some serious mistakes in my handling of the situation. Right before I wrote this forum post, I texted my wife and apologized for not handling things as well as I should have.
We're on week 10 of her 12 week mat leave (stupid short in my opinion, but you know, MURICA), and we're interviewing nannies today. She's committing to at least going back to work with the understanding that it's easier to go back then quit than it is to quit then go back. If she quits, then it means an instant lifestyle change (no eating out, no cable, cheaper phones, etc.) and dialing back 401k to company match only for me. Even then we're still cash flow negative, so I will probably have to get a second job and we'll explore selling our newly purchased house, among other things.
OP i wish you the best in continuing to figure things out!
Sorry if this has been mentioned before. In the book "The Complete Tightwad Gazette", the author Amy Dacyczyn, discusses this at length and offers lots of strategies. A lot of the book is hilariously out of date, but the fundamentals are still rock-solid. Don't buy it from Amazon, this is just so you can see the cover. Might be downloadable free by now, it's so old.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Tightwad-Gazette-Promoting-Alternative/dp/0375752250
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Reviving this dead thread to say that as a husband who is going through issues right now with his wife due to the exact same issue as OP, it was encouraging to read so many different viewpoints from mothers and fathers alike.
I can look back and realize that I have made some serious mistakes in my handling of the situation. Right before I wrote this forum post, I texted my wife and apologized for not handling things as well as I should have.
We're on week 10 of her 12 week mat leave (stupid short in my opinion, but you know, MURICA), and we're interviewing nannies today. She's committing to at least going back to work with the understanding that it's easier to go back then quit than it is to quit then go back. If she quits, then it means an instant lifestyle change (no eating out, no cable, cheaper phones, etc.) and dialing back 401k to company match only for me. Even then we're still cash flow negative, so I will probably have to get a second job and we'll explore selling our newly purchased house, among other things.
OP i wish you the best in continuing to figure things out!
Is she deciding to quit because you've determined child care is just too much? Just trying to get some more perspective.
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Reviving this dead thread to say that as a husband who is going through issues right now with his wife due to the exact same issue as OP, it was encouraging to read so many different viewpoints from mothers and fathers alike.
I can look back and realize that I have made some serious mistakes in my handling of the situation. Right before I wrote this forum post, I texted my wife and apologized for not handling things as well as I should have.
We're on week 10 of her 12 week mat leave (stupid short in my opinion, but you know, MURICA), and we're interviewing nannies today. She's committing to at least going back to work with the understanding that it's easier to go back then quit than it is to quit then go back. If she quits, then it means an instant lifestyle change (no eating out, no cable, cheaper phones, etc.) and dialing back 401k to company match only for me. Even then we're still cash flow negative, so I will probably have to get a second job and we'll explore selling our newly purchased house, among other things.
OP i wish you the best in continuing to figure things out!
Is she deciding to quit because you've determined child care is just too much? Just trying to get some more perspective.
Not at all that. It's just that her priorities completely changed unexpectedly. When we planned to have a kid, it was her idea to keep working. When we were looking for a house, we stretched a little and got the dream house because there was no way she was going to quit working. Unlike most of her family who started having kids at 18, she waited til early 30s. She's just always been a career girl.
Once the kid came, the feeling of "I don't want to give up my kid to a stranger" hit her like a ton of bricks.
I make less money than her currently (it's 60% her, 40% me), so while we'd be fine on my salary, we wouldn't be able to live the life we have been living (lot's of saving, lots of spending, mcmansion in the burbs etc.)
Unfortunately, part time work is just not an option in her industry. The best solution is for her to transfer to a different team and work from home. Her current position is conducive to 1-2 work from home days max, she has to be in the field 3-4 days.
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Since some of the posts have touched on maternity leave in the U.S., I wanted to add my two cents. Our government believes that the best thing for our youngest citizens is that they be exclusively breast fed for the first 6 months of their life. https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/breastfeeding/conditioninfo/Pages/recommendations.aspx However, our leave policies don't support our government's recommendations. Pumping is difficult and far less than ideal. Personally, I couldn't get enough at work to support a exclusive breast milk diet for our son. So if our government truly believes in exclusive breast feeding, it should enable babies to be with their mothers full time for the first six months.
However, to have a more generous leave policy puts women at a competitive disadvantage in the workplace. If you compare mothers with careers in the U.S. to other countries with generous leave, women in the U.S. are more likely to rise to higher positions than women in other countries with generous leave policies http://ideas.time.com/2013/09/30/longer-maternity-leave-not-so-great-for-women-after-all/ so fathers should be given 6 months of leave as well in an attempt to level the playing field.
My own life experience trying to have a kid and a job: after I had our first I went back PT but then eventually burned out and quit. My husband had undiagnosed lyme disease so I was pretty much doing everything at home because he was in constant pain and couldn't do things like dishes, holding the baby, taking out the trash etc. without his hands hurting. So life became constant work and eventually broke me. Personally, I liked working. It was easier than being at home with an infant. However, I would've eventually lost my PT job anyway because the company I worked for was owned by Bear Stearns and the Great Recession happened. It's now 8 years and one additional child later and I really would like to go back to work but am not sure how to make it work given summers, inevitable child illnesses, and the crazy amount of days the kids get off of school, but that's a whole 'nother post.
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It's now 8 years and one additional child later and I really would like to go back to work but am not sure how to make it work given summers, inevitable child illnesses, and the crazy amount of days the kids get off of school, but that's a whole 'nother post.
It's hard, but doable, depending on the kids. Part time is best in my opinion.
But if you can't do it, you cobble it together with half days (if you can), working from home, summer camp, college student nannies, after school programs, and a husband.
Honestly, my husband *can't* be one of those guys who works 50-60 hours a week. He doesn't want to be. Our kids are out of camp at 3:30 this week, and we just take turns.
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I'm in Canada so enjoyed 2 year long mat leaves and went back to work afterwards
I'm in Canada, so had not a single day of mat leave, and had to work right through :(
Like extended health insurance, mat leave is (or was?) available to some but not others in Canada. (And I feel compelled to clarify this on threads that equate Canada with certain things.)
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Once the kid came, the feeling of "I don't want to give up my kid to a stranger" hit her like a ton of bricks.
I make less money than her currently (it's 60% her, 40% me), so while we'd be fine on my salary, we wouldn't be able to live the life we have been living (lot's of saving, lots of spending, mcmansion in the burbs etc.)
Unfortunately, part time work is just not an option in her industry. The best solution is for her to transfer to a different team and work from home. Her current position is conducive to 1-2 work from home days max, she has to be in the field 3-4 days.
Just a thought, have you considered being a stay at home parent or moving to part-time? No pressure to do so if you don't have the caregiver/homebody personality, but just a possibility. This way your child is not with a "stranger", save money on childcare, etc. I may have posted earlier in this thread my calculations in 2009 that it would take a salary of at least $60K to replace the work I do for the family (childcare, cooking, cleaning, accounting, home repair) and the work would be done less well and without love. So depending on your salary, this might actually be a smarter move financially.