Author Topic: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass  (Read 4548 times)

PDXTabs

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Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« on: April 11, 2019, 04:52:07 PM »
My 17 year old daughter, who earns hundreds of dollars per month, spent too much money on fancy coffee's and piercings. So, she asked me to borrow $20 until the next time she gets paid. I told her no, and I suggested to her mom (who I'm divorced from) do the same. However, her mom gave her the money, because the daughter is good at paying her debts. However, I thought this would be a good moment to learn that if you spend all your money on latte's that you don't have any money before she goes away to college.

Now the daughter thinks I'm a monster because I followed up her flippant reply with a lecture on hedonic adaptation, and she got the $20 from her mom.

I was curious what over mustachians think?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 10:17:24 PM by PDXTabs »

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 04:59:34 PM »
Well it's probably silly to think that your ex-wife will do what you want, especially when your daughter has shown herself to be responsible with loans.

And you thought a lecture to your teenage child would work. Do you two routinely talk about money management?

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 06:08:45 PM »
I'm definitely not a parent, but I can imagine having any sort of major parental conversation/disagreement with a teenager that's ready to go off to college is challenging. Unless she needed gas to go to work/school or feminine hygiene products, I probably would've told her that I didn't have $20 to borrow at the moment and then ended the conversation there. Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal. Teenagers have plenty of interesting stuff on their minds around that age so she'll probably forgot about it entirely in a few days or weeks.

ilsy

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 08:23:20 PM »
I'm a huge fan of "love and logic" strategy when it comes to parenting. No-one likes to be lectured, your DD isn't an exception. Do you like to get lectures from your boss, your lectures to your DD isn't something different. Of course she won't like it, it's diminishing and usually brings the opposite results, young adults rebel, and want to prove that you are wrong.

It's sad your DD didn't learn this lesson earlier in her life and she is still not getting the opportunity. I think by not lending her money you, at least, try to make her learn. Hopefully, she doesn't learn her lesson when the price tag is way higher, like several thousands. But you can't control it and you can't force her learn this lesson.

The truth, she is going to think that you are a monster, and she may never change her mind about you, you just need to hope that one day, she says "you know dad, you were right." This is just a part of being a parent, you plant your seeds of wisdom and hope they germinate someday.

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 10:12:02 PM »
Well it's probably silly to think that your ex-wife will do what you want, especially when your daughter has shown herself to be responsible with loans.

Maybe, we're pretty good at co-parenting and natural consequences when it doesn't come to money. I guess that it is true that we got divorced in large part due to money. The worst part, to me, is that she knows the daughter is bad with money. In fact she fully expects her to fail once she is out of the house. However, the daughter is so head strong that she has given up trying to teach her while she is still at home, as far as I can tell. Please note: the daughter in question is a very good student and could do very well in life.

And you thought a lecture to your teenage child would work. Do you two routinely talk about money management?

Not exactly, but I periodically tell her to save some of her money, and she has read both Worth It by Amanda Steinberg as well as The Simple Path to Wealth by JL Collins.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 11:00:16 PM »
I'm curious what sort of feedback you were looking for. Were you asking whether your daughter will hate you forever for this? Whether you were "right"? Whether her mom shouldn't have lent her the $20? Whether your daughter is doomed to a life of debt? Ideas on how to get your daughter to save?

It's sad that she has a parent expecting her to fail. From the limited information you've given here, I don't see why that would be.

reeshau

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2019, 02:50:17 AM »
Your thought was not a bad thought.  Of course we would all say this, on this board.  Others have commented on the approach.  +1 to love and logic; my Mom, a practicing school social worker, gave me that book when my son was born.

Please, please have a discussion with your daughter and your ex about credit cards before she hits campus and signs up in order to get some fancy water bottle with flavor infuser, or something.  Part of the issue is that you need to have these discussions outside of the event and attached emotions.  Set expectations up front what is good and is not good, and what you will and will not do to help her.  No guarantee she won't press for more or different, but maybe you can avoid the temptation to lecture when emotions are high, because everything has already been said.

Unique User

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 05:58:22 AM »
My 17 year old daughter also earns quite a bit and spends a lot of it stupidly.  She gets irritated at our comments on how much she spends on food/coffee outside of the home, clothes, make up and other nonsense.  Our rule has been that she saves 40% of what she earns for spending money during college and keeps her A average at school and in return she gets free access to the car.  I don't check up on her and know she saves less than this otherwise she'd have much more in her savings account.  However, I view it as a miracle that she saves at all since most her friends spend everything they earn.  We've always been open about money and finances with her and she is well aware that we are quitting next year so will not have unlimited funds to bail her out.  Does she regularly think we are monsters, clueless, etc?  Of course, she's 17. 

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 08:33:51 AM »
I'm curious what sort of feedback you were looking for. Were you asking whether your daughter will hate you forever for this? Whether you were "right"? Whether her mom shouldn't have lent her the $20? Whether your daughter is doomed to a life of debt? Ideas on how to get your daughter to save?

Whichever you want! Mostly, if your daughter ran out of spending money (which she had lots of - let's say $500/mo on average), would you bail her out because $20 is a small sum? Or would you try to have some amount of natural consequences/pain while she is still at home so that maybe she could learn something from the experience?

Please, please have a discussion with your daughter and your ex about credit cards before she hits campus and signs up in order to get some fancy water bottle with flavor infuser, or something.

She would very much like to go to grad school right after her undergrad (very good student). We have both told her that the key to opening up her best grad school opportunities is to minimize all debt during undergrad. Preferably: zero debt during undergrad. I'm a little worried about CCs, but honestly I'm way more worried about student loans. CCs are dischargeable in bankruptcy. However, your point is well taken.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 08:42:32 AM by PDXTabs »

sol

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 08:38:03 AM »
When one of my teenagers asks me for a short term loan, I generally say yes.  I also remind them that it sucks to spend all of your money before you get paid, but that the Bank of Dad is always here as a backstop.  Then I charge them 10% interest per day.

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 08:47:08 AM »
@sol,

Is this one of your serious posts? Part of my problem is that I don't believe in charging my children usurious interest rates - but maybe I should. Also, I don't want to tech them that the bank of dad will always be there, since they could easily have civil liabilities that eclipse my net worth in one automobile accident. Also, on both sides of our family (ex and I) there are 30~35 year olds living at home with parents and I would really like to avoid that.

Not to say that the bank of dad won't be there for some transactions. If they need a doctor or a lawyer I will do my absolute best.

sol

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 09:18:08 AM »
Is this one of your serious posts? Part of my problem is that I don't believe in charging my children usurious interest rates

Yes it is, and yes I do charge them usurious interest rates.  That's the whole point.  Kids don't internalize how interest works when they open a savings account and make 25 cents in a year, it just doesn't seem worth it to them.  So I jack up the rates they make by saving, and I jack up the rates they pay by borrowing.

But their financial lives are small potatoes.  Usually, when one of them wants something it's like a $7 item from a grocery store and they failed to bring their wallet with them, so they ask to borrow money until we get home and I buy it for them and they pay me back $8 when we get back.  I'm trying to instill a couple of different lessons, all related to having your shit together.  Like don't leave the house without your wallet and keys.  If you do, you deal with the consequences.

My kids have never asked me for money when they genuinely didn't have any, but then again my oldest is only 15 and his expenses are virtually nonexistent.  If they wanted $100 in cash and were legitimately broke, I would probably explain that it sucks to be broke and now they're going to have to figure something else out until they get paid again.  No more money means no more buying stuff.

It probably depends on the kid, right?  My young teenagers have always had an allowance, half paid in cash and half deposited in a savings account, and they have been responsible for buying their own frivolous stuff since about the age of 8.  In my family it's been an effective means of dealing with the "I want that" impulse that kids have in stores, or while watching commercials.  They learned long ago that you can only buy cool expensive things if you don't buy lots of little things, and at this moment I can't imagine one of them asking me for an extra $20.  Like that's just such a foreign idea in our family.  If you don't have any money left, then you can't buy stuff anymore.  I gleefully charge usurious interest, but only on short term loans when I know they already have the money.

Quote
Also, I don't want to tech them that the bank of dad will always be there, since they could easily have civil liabilities that eclipse my net worth in one automobile accident.

This is a complicated topic for early retirees.  My kids used to worry about money, and they were pretty freaked out when I retired last year.  I had to explain very carefully that our family already has all the money it will ever need (that part was easy) but now our job is to manage it wisely so that it lasts (that part was harder and caused them some trepidation, because they worried about it running out). 

We have had many conversations about what it means to be rich and in our family we've all agreed that being rich means having money to buy stuff, and not having a bunch of stuff but no money.  They used to think rich people had fancy stuff, now they understand that people who have spent all of their money on fancy stuff are no longer rich.  That seemed to help ease their fears about my retirement, because they see our big pile of money as a safety blanket that protects us, instead of as a finite pool waiting to be traded away.  We have the option to buy just about anything, but then we wouldn't be rich anymore.  As long as we don't spend it, we're still rich.  And safe.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 09:29:53 AM by sol »

Slow&Steady

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2019, 09:24:53 AM »
When my son runs out of money I tell him that I will put enough gas in his car to get to school/work until he gets paid but I will not put enough gas for him to drive anywhere else. If he runs out of gas before he gets paid a second time, I will remove the amount I have to fork out for extra gas from his bank account the morning that he gets paid (auto deposit).  The is food in the kitchen, I do not give him money but I do make sure that he has what he needs to continue to function on our normal routine (i.e. having to drop him off at school/work does not help with my/husbands already overloaded schedule).

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2019, 09:55:45 AM »
It probably depends on the kid, right?

Absolutely. I have three kids with very different relationships to consumerism and money. One of them was born more mustachian than I am.

Dee18

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2019, 10:03:04 AM »
When my daughter wanted more money in high school I usually had some work for her to do that I didnít want to do....like pulling ivy off the fence and cutting it back.   I would offer her minimum wage to do the work.  Sometimes she would take the deal and sometimes she would decide to do without whatever she wanted to spend money on.

ilsy

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2019, 03:12:34 PM »
I'm very surprised how @sol 's parenting style coincides with mine. So, very much what he said and

-My kids pay me to drive them to school. They can walk (about 15min walk), and they walk home, since I am still at work and can't give them a ride. They have a choice, either they walk, or they pay me. At the beginning it was additional chores around the house. Now, since my mom lives with us, she dominates dishes and cooking and most cleaning. So, I have decided that they pay me with reading, but only books approved by me (we had a problem at the beginning with them reading books they have already read). For example, my daughter (12 e.o) is finishing "Everyday math for dummies" (384p), it talks about personal money like CCs, mortgages, interest rates, balancing checkbook, business math, insurance math, you name it, it has it. After each chapter we discuss what she read, I want to make sure she understands the material (I loved how her eyes sparkled when she finally understood what a compound interest was). After this book she has a choice of reading "vocabulary for SAT," "self teaching guide for chemistry" and similar things. Practically, these books are going to help her in life and other things, and should save me money on hiring tutors. My son (10e.o) reads "advanced algebra" for his car ride (he is very good at math). After every book they finish, we go and celebrate at Starbucks.

-They also pay me with reading for their electronics time.

-They don't ever ask any money from me, they usually come with a question like "mom, how much should I pay you back for lemons and sugar after I sell lemonade?" I ask them what do they think is fair (most of the time 50%), completely covers lemons, and they do everything themselves (set up, banners, lemonade). They clean neighbors driveway and pay me ~10% for renting my tools.

-My daughter wanted to have a cat. We agreed that I will pay for his initial shots and neuter, but if he needs additional vet visits, she is going to cover that. The cat had an extra visit and we negotiated to 110 (for a $110 visit) tasks she needs to do around the house (besides her regular chores). The cat is one year old, and she still has about 10 tasks left.

-The rule is they need to brush their teeth at least twice a day (if they forget, or oversleep and have no time in the morning) I charge them $10 per occurrence. Fixing cavities isn't cheap.

-They only get $1 allowance each month, I figured they don't really need more than that, I buy food, clothes, concert clothes, musical instruments and pay for extra classes they want to take, I also buy them books. So, if they need to pay me $10 for missing teeth brushing, they might be out of that money for the whole year. If they miss it again (which doesn't happen), they need to come up with another way to get that money.

-They don't get paid for doing regular chores. It's their contribution to the family, should be free. Interestingly, when I go outside to shovel or just do some yard work, they get out to help because they might get some bonus points (like additional Starbucks trip or something else, it might be nothing at all, but there is always a chance for something good to happen).

I don't believe in lecturing, no rephrase that, I believe that lecturing doesn't work, at least the way I want it to work. People learn from making mistakes and from watching others. The mistakes part we have covered, no brushing teeth ($10) - cavities, expensive bills. Want the luxury of riding to school and having more time in the morning - pay for it (read). Now, about watching others. Recently I had to bring my 2013 Subaru for a part recall and got a loaner for 5 days (2019 Subaru- nice shiny, sun roof, technology). Kids were elated and kept asking me why I won't buy this car, "mom, why won't you buy it, you have the money." Me: "That's why I have the money, because I don't spend it." My x recently got a newer car to replace one that was working fine, but was older. So, that was my kids' "normal," until they saw a "new normal" of me not buying even though I could afford it.

They are far from being mustachians, but they have the opportunity to observe it and see that there is another way of living, very different form the majority around them. My daughter freaked out and was panicking when I first introduced the idea of me retiring in a couple of years. For the second conversation she came prepared with questions like what am I going to do if I get a "dry season" on my rentals (well, the wheels are turning), and I had to tell that the chance that all of them are going to be in "dry season" is low, plus they are insured.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 03:17:48 PM by ilsy »

11ducks

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2019, 06:26:49 PM »
I'm very surprised how @sol 's parenting style coincides with mine. So, very much what he said and

- So, I have decided that they pay me with reading, but only books approved by me (we had a problem at the beginning with them reading books they have already read). For example, my daughter (12 e.o) is finishing "Everyday math for dummies" (384p), it talks about personal money like CCs, mortgages, interest rates, balancing checkbook, business math, insurance math, you name it, it has it. After each chapter we discuss what she read, I want to make sure she understands the material (I loved how her eyes sparkled when she finally understood what a compound interest was). After this book she has a choice of reading "vocabulary for SAT," "self teaching guide for chemistry" and similar things. Practically, these books are going to help her in life and other things, and should save me money on hiring tutors. My son (10e.o) reads "advanced algebra" for his car ride (he is very good at math). After every book they finish, we go and celebrate at Starbucks.

-.

Such a smart idea, I'm definitely stealing this!

Hargrove

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2019, 12:22:25 AM »
I scratch my head about your comment that she's good at repaying loans. If so, great. I think you're beyond the lesson/harm stage re: loaning her the $20.

I would just caution it's easy to "explain the principle" when the practical value is zero and the other person is hurt by it. You can say no if you want, but explaining the principle of a $20 loan to a 17-yr-old who pays her debts...?

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2019, 06:47:45 AM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.

driftwood

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2019, 07:14:22 AM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.

This wasn't a big deal. You're not a monster, but maybe temporarily she'll be grumpy about it. So what? Your job as a parent isn't to throw money at your children to pacify their wants. Unless we're missing something, she's housed, fed, and clothed by you and your ex. Fantastic! Way to provide for your teen child!. I bet she doesn't even have to spend her afternoons and weekends helping on the farm so that the family can survive the winter!  You've done well and your daughter is reaping the benefits already.

I wouldn't even bring this up with your daughter. It'll fade away. You made your point and that's fine.

And to MrThatsDifferent... how in any world is it "unecessarily harsh" to not loan your child money for a want? harsh?  That kinds mentality is the same mentality that people use to say how they deserve the new car, lattes, giant houses, when they can't afford to pay for them. How in the world can it be harsh to not loan a teenanger money?!?! What kind of snowflake world are we in here? This is MMM, where if someone blows their HUNDREDS of dollars a month on silly things they get punched in the face, not coddled and the parents scolded for not enabling more of the same poor spending habits. Sheesh. Also have no idea what any of this has to do with "Men". Sheesh.

ilsy

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2019, 08:15:12 AM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.
What? Wait, what???? I think you are on a wrong forum.
No, wait. You are probably a troll, who is just bored of his/her mind and wants to stir something to spice things up. I don't believe you would post something like that on a mustachian forum. How old are you? Do your parents know you are here?

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2019, 09:23:51 AM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad?

Since she turned 16 and got her license I've actually been spending more on her because of the automobile costs - which I told her I would cover almost entirely, but it was her job to not be a dumbass with her money. This is because she spends most of her time with her mom in a rural setting and needs to drive to work. So I spend a few hundred extra dollars a month for her transportation when she isn't even with me or my responsibility, because it gives her several opportunities that I want her to have (like driving to her job).

But more importantly, isn't it first and foremost my job to raise her to solve her own problems? If I solve every problem she encounters, even the ones she creates for herself, what will she learn? If your 17 year old puts her hand on a glowing hot burner, should you get her ice or tell her not to do that?

It is entirely possible that I was too harsh in my delivery. If you 17 year old burns their hand on the stove, maybe you shouldn't lecture them on the relative temperatures of kitchen instruments. However, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't solve all of the problems that your children create for themselves.

Tuskalusa

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2019, 09:25:27 AM »
I agree with Ilsy on this one. The DD is doing a lot of the right things. She didnít ask her dad to lend her money to pay of massive credit card debt...just $20 bucks to get to the next paycheck. Presumably, thatís less than sheís been blowing on ďfancy coffee and piercings,Ē unless she gets paid tomorrow. So, the lesson of needing to manage money is already sinking in.

I would prefer for my teenager to go out in the world worth $20 in her pocket for emergencies anyway. If my DS asked me this, Iíd probably give it to him and say something like ďyouíre gonna manage your money a little more closely when youíre own in college, right?Ē

Being a teenage is largely about making mistakes and learning from them. If we, as parents, lecture on everything, we wonít be the ones our kids go to when they need help.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2019, 10:16:07 AM »
But more importantly, isn't it first and foremost my job to raise her to solve her own problems? If I solve every problem she encounters, even the ones she creates for herself, what will she learn? If your 17 year old puts her hand on a glowing hot burner, should you get her ice or tell her not to do that?

It is entirely possible that I was too harsh in my delivery. If you 17 year old burns their hand on the stove, maybe you shouldn't lecture them on the relative temperatures of kitchen instruments. However, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't solve all of the problems that your children create for themselves.

This was an unexpected comparison, but random PSA: you want cool water, not cold water or ice, for surface level burns. https://www.webmd.com/first-aid/thermal-heat-or-fire-burns-treatment

And yes, if you see anyone burning their hand, you should help them, not lecture them. Thankfully your daughter didn't do that. You don’t need to loan her the money, but I would take a step back and try to reframe how you think of your daughter.

From what's been said in this thread, she is a very good student, she has a part time job, and she is reliable at paying back loans.

But it seems like both of her parents have negative views of her. Mom expects her to fail, dad thinks she's bad with money and apparently thinks she is extremely lacking in common sense. But she's 17. She has no real expenses and some cash coming in, it's entirely reasonable that she'll spend it.

You asked me what I would do if she was my daughter. I would probably make her cover half of her car expenses and set expectations ahead of time of how much I would willing to lend her, at X% interest rate. Or I would open up a credit card for her with a low limit, to help build her credit history, while being able to monitor usage. If she gets hit with fees or insane interest in that situation, it's a much smaller blow than if she goes crazy with newfound credit freedom at college. I would tell her that I’ll always be there if she has a true emergency. (You told us that's the case, not sure if your daughter knows that.) Then I would avoid lecturing her on money, and try to focus on the student loan piece so she doesn’t end up in over her head. And if she did end up struggling, I would try my absolute best not to say "told you so." At least this is my idealized parenting version. Real life is harder.

You mentioned that your marriage ended largely due to money issues. You and your ex-wife are likely to have bigger disagreements in the future. I would try to get everyone on the same page about student loans, without lecturing anyone or telling your ex what to do and creating resentment. And maybe let the small stuff slide so they’re more open to a conversation about the important stuff.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 10:21:10 AM by MonkeyJenga »

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2019, 02:26:02 PM »
I would prefer for my teenager to go out in the world worth $20 in her pocket for emergencies anyway. If my DS asked me this, Iíd probably give it to him and say something like ďyouíre gonna manage your money a little more closely when youíre own in college, right?Ē

I do wish that my kids were responsible enough to always have $20 in their pocket. I'm not sure always giving them another $20 is the answer.

But she's 17. She has no real expenses and some cash coming in, it's entirely reasonable that she'll spend it.
...
You asked me what I would do if she was my daughter. I would probably make her cover half of her car expenses and set expectations ahead of time of how much I would willing to lend her, at X% interest rate. Or I would open up a credit card for her with a low limit, to help build her credit history, while being able to monitor usage. If she gets hit with fees or insane interest in that situation, it's a much smaller blow than if she goes crazy with newfound credit freedom at college. I would tell her that Iíll always be there if she has a true emergency. (You told us that's the case, not sure if your daughter knows that.) Then I would avoid lecturing her on money, and try to focus on the student loan piece so she doesnít end up in over her head. And if she did end up struggling, I would try my absolute best not to say "told you so." At least this is my idealized parenting version. Real life is harder.

I did a poor job with backstory. I told her that I would cover all the car expenses but she needed to save some of the money that she didn't have to spend because of my generosity. Perhaps that was too much to ask of a straight A student? Anyway, maybe going forward I need to try a different tack and have her pay some of the expenses instead of giving her a deal and asking for her to save.

OneCoolCat

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2019, 02:43:10 PM »
To be fair, not giving her the $20 is not the real world.  In the real world, she would get the $20 loan and pay interest.  Try giving her the $20 and charging her $5 interest (the price of one latte).  That'll be a good lesson.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2019, 03:03:53 PM »
I did a poor job with backstory. I told her that I would cover all the car expenses but she needed to save some of the money that she didn't have to spend because of my generosity. Perhaps that was too much to ask of a straight A student? Anyway, maybe going forward I need to try a different tack and have her pay some of the expenses instead of giving her a deal and asking for her to save.

That's a reasonable ask. You're being generous already, and you aren't obligated to lend her money. You aren't obligated to keep paying for her expenses either, if she isn't living up to her end of the deal. I would just try to avoid lecturing or judging, whatever you end up doing.

Good luck!

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2019, 06:50:01 AM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.
What? Wait, what???? I think you are on a wrong forum.
No, wait. You are probably a troll, who is just bored of his/her mind and wants to stir something to spice things up. I don't believe you would post something like that on a mustachian forum. How old are you? Do your parents know you are here?

Hardly a troll. She asked for a loan of $20. Not $1000, not even $100. $20 that she would pay back. I canít see how lending 17 yo who has a job $20 violates the mustachian oath, but I can see how some people take mustachianism too far and it costs relationships. Was it worth it so that the mom could get the win and the child think her dad is a jerk? Keep in mind the OP wants us to validate that he wasnít being a dumbassm cause in reflection it seems he may have been. And you might think what he did was fine, my opinion is different, but thatís what he asked for, our opinions.

And why the hell are people suggesting he charge interests on $20? If the story was my irresponsible kid is always asking for and wasting money and this time, I took a stand, Iíd get it. Doesnít seem like that here. The kid overspent and needed a couple more dollars that she was going to pay back cause she seems generally responsible. But sure, teach her a lesson for dare asking her parent for a $20 loan. The horror! Is there a mustachian gulag we can put her in? Parents would build stronger relationships with kids if they just admitted, yep, meant the right thing, but executed that poorly. Iíll try better to not do that again, hereís what I wish I had said better. It ainít hard.

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2019, 08:31:57 AM »
I canít see how lending 17 yo who has a job $20 violates the mustachian oath, but I can see how some people take mustachianism too far and it costs relationships. Was it worth it so that the mom could get the win and the child think her dad is a jerk?

Since I posted this I have talked to half a dozen non-mustachians about this issue. Only one of them told me that they would have given her the money. It's okay that you are in that camp. Also, my daughter learned an important lesson for college: if she spends all of her money on non-essentials dad will not be there to bail her out, but mom will.

PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2019, 02:12:38 PM »
With the help of everyone on this thread (even the people that I disagree with) I decided to let her start helping to paying for some of the car expenses instead of having a savings mandate.

Tuskalusa

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2019, 04:49:50 PM »
FWIW, I would recommend that you are careful with these kinds of ďlife lessonsĒ that stem from small missteps. My husband and his dad had very similar ďchallengesĒ when he was growing up. It all but ruined their relationship. We are still mending to this day. Weíre in our late 40ís. Seemingly small things can pile up and build wedges.

Mind you, we turned out fine. But I would give the credit to my parents, who had a strong influence on both of us as we became adults. They were alway there when we needed them. They taught us solid financial skills. They were generous. We are now financially solid and generous.  Thatís their legacy.

It comes down to who you and to be and what you want to model. Only you know whatís best here. Please just remember that your kids will remember your decisions for longer than you think.


PDXTabs

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2019, 05:09:20 PM »
FWIW, I would recommend that you are careful with these kinds of ďlife lessonsĒ that stem from small missteps. My husband and his dad had very similar ďchallengesĒ when he was growing up. It all but ruined their relationship. We are still mending to this day. Weíre in our late 40ís. Seemingly small things can pile up and build wedges.

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind. I never asked either of my parents for a loan, ever. Not because I was good with money, I wasn't, but because I would have been too embarrassed. So, I was very careful to never get to the point that I would have needed to ask. Also, I never would have called my dad to ask him for a loan when I was at my mom's house, because that's weird to me.

Buffalo Chip

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2019, 05:51:14 PM »
Youíre not a dumbass.

Lending money to family members is a bad idea, unless you never want to see that person again. In which case it might be the best money you ever spend. 😁

Sounds like time to start talking money management with DD. Even if she doesnít want to listen, putting on podcasts and talking about the subject will sink in over time. Kids listen even when they profess not to.

From a disciplinary perspective, whining about something like this would earn you a fine or extra chores at my house. But YMMV.

LiveLean

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2019, 07:28:08 AM »
Bigger question: Why the hell does a 17-year-old need to drink coffee? I have a 16-year-old who is a competitive swimmer. His practice schedule includes 4:45 AM practices on Tuesday and Thursday mornings. If he doesn't use caffeine....
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 07:37:09 AM by LiveLean »

ilsy

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2019, 08:50:39 PM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.
What? Wait, what???? I think you are on a wrong forum.
No, wait. You are probably a troll, who is just bored of his/her mind and wants to stir something to spice things up. I don't believe you would post something like that on a mustachian forum. How old are you? Do your parents know you are here?

Hardly a troll. She asked for a loan of $20. Not $1000, not even $100. $20 that she would pay back. I canít see how lending 17 yo who has a job $20 violates the mustachian oath, but I can see how some people take mustachianism too far and it costs relationships. Was it worth it so that the mom could get the win and the child think her dad is a jerk? Keep in mind the OP wants us to validate that he wasnít being a dumbassm cause in reflection it seems he may have been. And you might think what he did was fine, my opinion is different, but thatís what he asked for, our opinions.

And why the hell are people suggesting he charge interests on $20? If the story was my irresponsible kid is always asking for and wasting money and this time, I took a stand, Iíd get it. Doesnít seem like that here. The kid overspent and needed a couple more dollars that she was going to pay back cause she seems generally responsible. But sure, teach her a lesson for dare asking her parent for a $20 loan. The horror! Is there a mustachian gulag we can put her in? Parents would build stronger relationships with kids if they just admitted, yep, meant the right thing, but executed that poorly. Iíll try better to not do that again, hereís what I wish I had said better. It ainít hard.
Ok, what the OP did wrong was that he lectured his daughter.  As I already mentioned that never works, diminishes, lowers self esteem and so on. Lecturing doesn't work. Not lending the money wasn't really a problem.

As others already said, one of the solutions could be lend the money and charge the interest, on any amount. That on itself teaches a lesson that if you are not smart with your money, spend it all and then suddenly need it for something, borrowing it costs money.  That's something that majority of people are facing every day and is an important mastachian way to learn this lesson.  The safest way to teach this lesson is when the price tag is small, $20. No lectures, just a matter of fact, "sure, I will give you the money,  no problem,  just bring me back $22 tomorrow/on Monday."

Another way to handle the situation was not to lend the money. But do it not in a punitive way, but in a loving, respectful way. Ex:
DD: dad, I need $20.
Dad: you need $20?
DD: yes, I spent all my money on coffee and now I need $20.
Dad: well, what are you going to do about it?
DD: I'm asking you, dad.
Dad: Well, that's one solution. What else would you do about it.
DD: ask mom, I guess.
Dad: well, that would be another way to solve this problem.
DD: whatever dad, if you just didn't want to...
Dad: love you, I knew you were going to figure it out.

What DD should learn from that conversation is that she should solve her problems on her own, and that her problems don't automatically become her perents' problems. Of course, if her mom "solves" her daughter's problems all the time,  the DD doesn't get an opportunity to do it. The earlier DD learns this lesson, when the price tag is still low, the better off she would be. But did you notice that Dad didn't lecture, didn't say a word about responsibly of handling money, nothing like that. On the contrary, he had all the faith that his DD is able to solve her problems on her own.

So, both ways are mastachian ways because they raise the probability of the kid becoming a valuable part of our society by owning their own problems or learning early on that not being frugal with your money,  might cost you. These are valuable lessons to learn as early as possible.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 09:11:46 PM by ilsy »

kuzmama

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2019, 09:23:07 PM »
You are not a dumbass

I think that maybe having control of everything in financial life may make it even harder to let go of things you don't have control of. Such as your teenage daughter and your ex. She would not be a teenager if she did not occasionally do what she wants just for the heck of it. Sounds like you are doing a good job with your daughter. Probably go for a less emotionally charged statement rather then a lecture next time

kuzmama

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2019, 09:25:36 PM »
When my daughter wanted more money in high school I usually had some work for her to do that I didnít want to do....like pulling ivy off the fence and cutting it back.   I would offer her minimum wage to do the work.  Sometimes she would take the deal and sometimes she would decide to do without whatever she wanted to spend money on.


This is a great idea if you want to hopefully skip the step where she goes to your ex

One

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2019, 10:23:51 AM »
Sounds like a great kid you have, excellent student, has a job at 17 which is like having 2 jobs if you include all the time in school and homework. If it was me Iíd give a slight lecture, hand over the 20, then praise the kid for working so hard and getting good grades. Good luck and I hope everything works out.

Sibley

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2019, 10:53:53 AM »

....

-The rule is they need to brush their teeth at least twice a day (if they forget, or oversleep and have no time in the morning) I charge them $10 per occurrence. Fixing cavities isn't cheap.

....


You are correct, and a rule that you brush teeth at least 2x a day isn't a bad one. However, what do you do if it turns out the kid just has shit teeth through no fault of their own? It really is a thing. I know an adult (40s) who just has bad teeth. It's genetic. His parents had a similar attitude as you, despite knowing that multiple family members had really bad teeth. Now, the adult child has a strained relationship with the aging parents. While the teeth arguments aren't the only issue there, they are certainly representative. So be careful.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2019, 05:07:19 PM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.
What? Wait, what???? I think you are on a wrong forum.
No, wait. You are probably a troll, who is just bored of his/her mind and wants to stir something to spice things up. I don't believe you would post something like that on a mustachian forum. How old are you? Do your parents know you are here?

Hardly a troll. She asked for a loan of $20. Not $1000, not even $100. $20 that she would pay back. I canít see how lending 17 yo who has a job $20 violates the mustachian oath, but I can see how some people take mustachianism too far and it costs relationships. Was it worth it so that the mom could get the win and the child think her dad is a jerk? Keep in mind the OP wants us to validate that he wasnít being a dumbassm cause in reflection it seems he may have been. And you might think what he did was fine, my opinion is different, but thatís what he asked for, our opinions.

And why the hell are people suggesting he charge interests on $20? If the story was my irresponsible kid is always asking for and wasting money and this time, I took a stand, Iíd get it. Doesnít seem like that here. The kid overspent and needed a couple more dollars that she was going to pay back cause she seems generally responsible. But sure, teach her a lesson for dare asking her parent for a $20 loan. The horror! Is there a mustachian gulag we can put her in? Parents would build stronger relationships with kids if they just admitted, yep, meant the right thing, but executed that poorly. Iíll try better to not do that again, hereís what I wish I had said better. It ainít hard.
Ok, what the OP did wrong was that he lectured his daughter.  As I already mentioned that never works, diminishes, lowers self esteem and so on. Lecturing doesn't work. Not lending the money wasn't really a problem.

As others already said, one of the solutions could be lend the money and charge the interest, on any amount. That on itself teaches a lesson that if you are not smart with your money, spend it all and then suddenly need it for something, borrowing it costs money.  That's something that majority of people are facing every day and is an important mastachian way to learn this lesson.  The safest way to teach this lesson is when the price tag is small, $20. No lectures, just a matter of fact, "sure, I will give you the money,  no problem,  just bring me back $22 tomorrow/on Monday."

Another way to handle the situation was not to lend the money. But do it not in a punitive way, but in a loving, respectful way. Ex:
DD: dad, I need $20.
Dad: you need $20?
DD: yes, I spent all my money on coffee and now I need $20.
Dad: well, what are you going to do about it?
DD: I'm asking you, dad.
Dad: Well, that's one solution. What else would you do about it.
DD: ask mom, I guess.
Dad: well, that would be another way to solve this problem.
DD: whatever dad, if you just didn't want to...
Dad: love you, I knew you were going to figure it out.

What DD should learn from that conversation is that she should solve her problems on her own, and that her problems don't automatically become her perents' problems. Of course, if her mom "solves" her daughter's problems all the time,  the DD doesn't get an opportunity to do it. The earlier DD learns this lesson, when the price tag is still low, the better off she would be. But did you notice that Dad didn't lecture, didn't say a word about responsibly of handling money, nothing like that. On the contrary, he had all the faith that his DD is able to solve her problems on her own.

So, both ways are mastachian ways because they raise the probability of the kid becoming a valuable part of our society by owning their own problems or learning early on that not being frugal with your money,  might cost you. These are valuable lessons to learn as early as possible.

I see where youíre going but youíve misstated the facts. The daughter didnít say she needed $20, according to the OP father, ďSo, she asked me to borrow $20 until the next time she gets paid.Ē

So this was asking the father for a short term loan. She wasnít attempting to permanently deprive the dad of his $20. Why couldnít the response be, happy to as long as you pay back on the day you say you will. If you donít then Iíll be less likely to lend you money in the future. Thatís the lesson. All of you people who have mortgages have borrowed money and promised to pay back. Thereís nothing wrong with asking for loans if youíre responsible to pay it back. This is still one of the craziest discussions Iíve read here.

ericbonabike

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2019, 06:58:24 AM »
No, you did right bro. 

Think you could have avoided the lecture, but how is loaning your daughter $20 until next paycheck any different than the stupid payday loan sharks operating in almost every single strip mall in america?  I talk to my daughters occasionally about the concept of "once your money is gone, it's gone".    Maybe I would have loaned her the money and charged her interest. 

Sucks that your ex undercut you, but you had to expect that.   In a "normal" household with both parents backing it up, your lesson would have been useful.  In your divorced situation, it allowed your ex to subvert the lesson and twisted it into "Dad is a Dick". 

I don't know how to navigate that, but abandoning your principles and loaning her $20 would have been bad also. 
In my opinion. 

sol

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2019, 08:37:56 AM »
I know an adult (40s) who just has bad teeth. It's genetic.

As a minor pet peeve, I'll point out that's highly unlikely.  People like to say "it's genetic" when they have the same problems their parents have, but what they usually mean is "it runs in my family".  Eating ham for Easter runs in my family.  Talking too loud when drunk runs in my family.  Arthritis runs in my family.  None of these things are genetic.

Until someone publishes the specific genes involved and proposes a causal mechanism, I'm deeply skeptical.  Most people don't have even a passing understanding of what genes actually do, and very few things about us are "genetic".  Many more things are passed on through families through shared culture, environment, and habits.   

Now if your friend has a diagnosed genetic disorder, that's a different story.  But if he just has bad teeth, blaming his genetics is probably a cop-out. 
Remember that tooth decay is caused by bacteria in the mouth, not by your genome.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 09:02:47 AM by sol »

mm1970

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2019, 11:13:02 AM »
I know an adult (40s) who just has bad teeth. It's genetic.

As a minor pet peeve, I'll point out that's highly unlikely.  People like to say "it's genetic" when they have the same problems their parents have, but what they usually mean is "it runs in my family".  Eating ham for Easter runs in my family.  Talking too loud when drunk runs in my family.  Arthritis runs in my family.  None of these things are genetic.

Until someone publishes the specific genes involved and proposes a causal mechanism, I'm deeply skeptical.  Most people don't have even a passing understanding of what genes actually do, and very few things about us are "genetic".  Many more things are passed on through families through shared culture, environment, and habits.   

Now if your friend has a diagnosed genetic disorder, that's a different story.  But if he just has bad teeth, blaming his genetics is probably a cop-out. 
Remember that tooth decay is caused by bacteria in the mouth, not by your genome.
https://www.deltadentalins.com/oral_health/are-oral-health-issues-genetic.html

Also:
http://www.smilesforthefuture.com/pediatric-dentistry/pregnancy-and-your-child-s-developing-teeth

I know an adopted child with very bad teeth, and it's suspected it's based on what happened in utero.

ilsy

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2019, 12:16:30 AM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.
What? Wait, what???? I think you are on a wrong forum.
No, wait. You are probably a troll, who is just bored of his/her mind and wants to stir something to spice things up. I don't believe you would post something like that on a mustachian forum. How old are you? Do your parents know you are here?

Hardly a troll. She asked for a loan of $20. Not $1000, not even $100. $20 that she would pay back. I canít see how lending 17 yo who has a job $20 violates the mustachian oath, but I can see how some people take mustachianism too far and it costs relationships. Was it worth it so that the mom could get the win and the child think her dad is a jerk? Keep in mind the OP wants us to validate that he wasnít being a dumbassm cause in reflection it seems he may have been. And you might think what he did was fine, my opinion is different, but thatís what he asked for, our opinions.

And why the hell are people suggesting he charge interests on $20? If the story was my irresponsible kid is always asking for and wasting money and this time, I took a stand, Iíd get it. Doesnít seem like that here. The kid overspent and needed a couple more dollars that she was going to pay back cause she seems generally responsible. But sure, teach her a lesson for dare asking her parent for a $20 loan. The horror! Is there a mustachian gulag we can put her in? Parents would build stronger relationships with kids if they just admitted, yep, meant the right thing, but executed that poorly. Iíll try better to not do that again, hereís what I wish I had said better. It ainít hard.
Ok, what the OP did wrong was that he lectured his daughter.  As I already mentioned that never works, diminishes, lowers self esteem and so on. Lecturing doesn't work. Not lending the money wasn't really a problem.

As others already said, one of the solutions could be lend the money and charge the interest, on any amount. That on itself teaches a lesson that if you are not smart with your money, spend it all and then suddenly need it for something, borrowing it costs money.  That's something that majority of people are facing every day and is an important mastachian way to learn this lesson.  The safest way to teach this lesson is when the price tag is small, $20. No lectures, just a matter of fact, "sure, I will give you the money,  no problem,  just bring me back $22 tomorrow/on Monday."

Another way to handle the situation was not to lend the money. But do it not in a punitive way, but in a loving, respectful way. Ex:
DD: dad, I need $20.
Dad: you need $20?
DD: yes, I spent all my money on coffee and now I need $20.
Dad: well, what are you going to do about it?
DD: I'm asking you, dad.
Dad: Well, that's one solution. What else would you do about it.
DD: ask mom, I guess.
Dad: well, that would be another way to solve this problem.
DD: whatever dad, if you just didn't want to...
Dad: love you, I knew you were going to figure it out.

What DD should learn from that conversation is that she should solve her problems on her own, and that her problems don't automatically become her perents' problems. Of course, if her mom "solves" her daughter's problems all the time,  the DD doesn't get an opportunity to do it. The earlier DD learns this lesson, when the price tag is still low, the better off she would be. But did you notice that Dad didn't lecture, didn't say a word about responsibly of handling money, nothing like that. On the contrary, he had all the faith that his DD is able to solve her problems on her own.

So, both ways are mastachian ways because they raise the probability of the kid becoming a valuable part of our society by owning their own problems or learning early on that not being frugal with your money,  might cost you. These are valuable lessons to learn as early as possible.

I see where youíre going but youíve misstated the facts. The daughter didnít say she needed $20, according to the OP father, ďSo, she asked me to borrow $20 until the next time she gets paid.Ē

So this was asking the father for a short term loan. She wasnít attempting to permanently deprive the dad of his $20. Why couldnít the response be, happy to as long as you pay back on the day you say you will. If you donít then Iíll be less likely to lend you money in the future. Thatís the lesson. All of you people who have mortgages have borrowed money and promised to pay back. Thereís nothing wrong with asking for loans if youíre responsible to pay it back. This is still one of the craziest discussions Iíve read here.
Sorry, I should have put in the dialog that DD wants the money, but promises to return it (I tried to make it short and sweet). It makes no difference. We are on a mustachian forum. On any other forum, it would have been legit, yep, give $20. But here people buy cars with cash, and it's normal, because they know if they cannot afford it, they don't just go and borrow money. And if they do, they pay interest, which isn't smart (normal for the rest of the world, but not for mustachians). So, while the rest of the world borrows money for cars and pays 3 times more in the end (don't quote the number), mustachians pay in cash and don't pay a penny more. Do mustachians get higher salaries than the rest of the world? Usually, not, but they are smart enough not to spend every penny they make. And of course the mustachians want their kids also not to spend every penny they make.

I hope this car example is pretty simple, the principle applies to houses, investments, and everything else, not only a car.

There is no lesson in your lesson.The probability of her learning to not spend every penny of her salary is zero. The probability of her learning not to come with her "money problems" to her parents is zero. The probability of her learning that by not paying interest on her car loan, CCs, personal loan she can become FI and RE is zero. The only thing she learns is to be like the majority of people, which isn't bad, but she could do so much better, since at least one of her parents is a mustachian.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 12:53:43 AM by ilsy »

ilsy

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2019, 12:42:25 AM »

....

-The rule is they need to brush their teeth at least twice a day (if they forget, or oversleep and have no time in the morning) I charge them $10 per occurrence. Fixing cavities isn't cheap.

....


You are correct, and a rule that you brush teeth at least 2x a day isn't a bad one. However, what do you do if it turns out the kid just has shit teeth through no fault of their own? It really is a thing. I know an adult (40s) who just has bad teeth. It's genetic. His parents had a similar attitude as you, despite knowing that multiple family members had really bad teeth. Now, the adult child has a strained relationship with the aging parents. While the teeth arguments aren't the only issue there, they are certainly representative. So be careful.
Sure, I will try to be careful. I don't have a strained relationship with my kids. They never even despute this rule. To them it's like an insurance that I won't come to them with the bill from their dentist and ask, well, how are we going to pay for it? They did their part (brushed their teeth), now the bills are mine.

I also would like to add, that a strained relationship stem from the way how things are handled. I dont come to my kids and say something like, "heyl, give me $10, you forgot to brush your teeth." No, I Iove my kids, and I tell them this all the time. Many times they come up with their punishments, not me. I usually just present the problem, guys listen, here is the thing, the bill came from the dentist and it's $100. I have noticed that you were not consistent with your teeth brushing, what do you think we should do about this situation next year. I hate paying so much to the dentist and I don't want to take from your BD money. And they come up with the rule. So, there is no reason for them to be angry at me, if it's their rule.

galliver

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2019, 01:11:16 AM »
I can't believe almost 50 posts in, only one has passingly mentioned the question: what was the $20 for?

Was it a need (gas, tampons, school supplies)? Was it time sensitive, eg tickets to prom or other major event that were only on sale for a limited time? Or was it just spending money that would mainly go to beverages/treats or teen girl "stuff"? (Eg clothes)

If your college roommate wanted to bum $20 till payday, it wouldn't matter. But with YOUR kid, it does. It's not unreasonable to expect you'd provide for needs, or even help your kid out when they screwed up their budgeting and are facing an XXXL consequence over S mistake.

It's not unreasonable to expect them to chip in for expenses, or charge interest on a loan, or deny a benefit (eg free car use) when they don't hold up their end of the bargain (saving).

Lecturing was probably a worse choice than a 2-way conversation. Sounds like it only got you resentment.

galliver

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2019, 01:33:19 AM »
Follow up idea. I believe OP mentioned they never asked their parents for money due to embarrassment. I hardly asked my parents for things either; far less than my youngest sister did, for sure.

And you know what? Now a 30 yr old professional, I still haven't learned to ask for things. From assignment extensions and donations/sponsorships to my student group in college, to quality laboratory equipment and my research advisor's attention in grad school, to raises, promotions, project assignments, or benefits today. You know who gets these things? People who ask. Not every time, sometimes they get "no." But those who don't ask get "no" by default.

Teach your kid to ask.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2019, 02:26:43 AM »
You were wrong and unnecessarily harsh. Youíre mustachian (presumably), your daughter isnít. You donít need to judge her. Sheís 17, has a job and pays for stuff, so you donít have to give her money, which youíre kinda obligated to to some degree as sheís just a child. But no, sheís making it so you donít have to spend as much on her, asks for a loan that it seems sheís good for and you decide to be tough dad? Ughhh. Men. Sheesh. Just apologize. Tell her you got it wrong and youíre not perfect. Why? Cause itís true and maybe the person who needs to learn a lesson here isnít her, itís you. You donít want her to not come to you about things in the future cause of how you manage things, do you? Parents make mistakes sometimes. Own it. Apologize and chill out. Give her praise for a being a good kid and stop making her feel like shit because sheís still a kid.
What? Wait, what???? I think you are on a wrong forum.
No, wait. You are probably a troll, who is just bored of his/her mind and wants to stir something to spice things up. I don't believe you would post something like that on a mustachian forum. How old are you? Do your parents know you are here?

Hardly a troll. She asked for a loan of $20. Not $1000, not even $100. $20 that she would pay back. I canít see how lending 17 yo who has a job $20 violates the mustachian oath, but I can see how some people take mustachianism too far and it costs relationships. Was it worth it so that the mom could get the win and the child think her dad is a jerk? Keep in mind the OP wants us to validate that he wasnít being a dumbassm cause in reflection it seems he may have been. And you might think what he did was fine, my opinion is different, but thatís what he asked for, our opinions.

And why the hell are people suggesting he charge interests on $20? If the story was my irresponsible kid is always asking for and wasting money and this time, I took a stand, Iíd get it. Doesnít seem like that here. The kid overspent and needed a couple more dollars that she was going to pay back cause she seems generally responsible. But sure, teach her a lesson for dare asking her parent for a $20 loan. The horror! Is there a mustachian gulag we can put her in? Parents would build stronger relationships with kids if they just admitted, yep, meant the right thing, but executed that poorly. Iíll try better to not do that again, hereís what I wish I had said better. It ainít hard.
Ok, what the OP did wrong was that he lectured his daughter.  As I already mentioned that never works, diminishes, lowers self esteem and so on. Lecturing doesn't work. Not lending the money wasn't really a problem.

As others already said, one of the solutions could be lend the money and charge the interest, on any amount. That on itself teaches a lesson that if you are not smart with your money, spend it all and then suddenly need it for something, borrowing it costs money.  That's something that majority of people are facing every day and is an important mastachian way to learn this lesson.  The safest way to teach this lesson is when the price tag is small, $20. No lectures, just a matter of fact, "sure, I will give you the money,  no problem,  just bring me back $22 tomorrow/on Monday."

Another way to handle the situation was not to lend the money. But do it not in a punitive way, but in a loving, respectful way. Ex:
DD: dad, I need $20.
Dad: you need $20?
DD: yes, I spent all my money on coffee and now I need $20.
Dad: well, what are you going to do about it?
DD: I'm asking you, dad.
Dad: Well, that's one solution. What else would you do about it.
DD: ask mom, I guess.
Dad: well, that would be another way to solve this problem.
DD: whatever dad, if you just didn't want to...
Dad: love you, I knew you were going to figure it out.

What DD should learn from that conversation is that she should solve her problems on her own, and that her problems don't automatically become her perents' problems. Of course, if her mom "solves" her daughter's problems all the time,  the DD doesn't get an opportunity to do it. The earlier DD learns this lesson, when the price tag is still low, the better off she would be. But did you notice that Dad didn't lecture, didn't say a word about responsibly of handling money, nothing like that. On the contrary, he had all the faith that his DD is able to solve her problems on her own.

So, both ways are mastachian ways because they raise the probability of the kid becoming a valuable part of our society by owning their own problems or learning early on that not being frugal with your money,  might cost you. These are valuable lessons to learn as early as possible.

I see where youíre going but youíve misstated the facts. The daughter didnít say she needed $20, according to the OP father, ďSo, she asked me to borrow $20 until the next time she gets paid.Ē

So this was asking the father for a short term loan. She wasnít attempting to permanently deprive the dad of his $20. Why couldnít the response be, happy to as long as you pay back on the day you say you will. If you donít then Iíll be less likely to lend you money in the future. Thatís the lesson. All of you people who have mortgages have borrowed money and promised to pay back. Thereís nothing wrong with asking for loans if youíre responsible to pay it back. This is still one of the craziest discussions Iíve read here.
Sorry, I should have put in the dialog that DD wants the money, but promises to return it (I tried to make it short and sweet). It makes no difference. We are on a mustachian forum. On any other forum, it would have been legit, yep, give $20. But here people buy cars with cash, and it's normal, because they know if they cannot afford it, they don't just go and borrow money. And if they do, they pay interest, which isn't smart (normal for the rest of the world, but not for mustachians). So, while the rest of the world borrows money for cars and pays 3 times more in the end (don't quote the number), mustachians pay in cash and don't pay a penny more. Do mustachians get higher salaries than the rest of the world? Usually, not, but they are smart enough not to spend every penny they make. And of course the mustachians want their kids also not to spend every penny they make.

I hope this car example is pretty simple, the principle applies to houses, investments, and everything else, not only a car.

There is no lesson in your lesson.The probability of her learning to not spend every penny of her salary is zero. The probability of her learning not to come with her "money problems" to her parents is zero. The probability of her learning that by not paying interest on her car loan, CCs, personal loan she can become FI and RE is zero. The only thing she learns is to be like the majority of people, which isn't bad, but she could do so much better, since at least one of her parents is a mustachian.

Sheís an under 18 kid, who has a job, pays for a lot of her stuff and has good grades. I think sheís learned lots of lessons. The lesson is simply, if you borrow money, pay it back. The lesson that many of you want to teach is, never ask anyone for money. I get that, itís great to not be dependent. But sometimes, some people need help. Is the mustachian response to always turn your back on others, and what, just give to charity if you Want? Anyways, I donít need to be that type of mustachian. Iíll jusge things case by case. If I have $20 and Iím dealing with a responsible kid who asks for a short loan, thatís an easy sure. If itís $1000 to buy a designer bag, Iíd say no. The dad made his call, the mom made herís and the child is working out who she can count on in a pinch. I get parents need to draw lines in the sand, I wouldíve drawn the line for something that had more substance. But thatís just me.

driftwood

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Re: Please tell me that I'm not a dumbass
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2019, 11:33:02 AM »
Let's not forget the $20 was for a want, not a need. The needs are already taken care of, which is part of being a dependent child living with your parents.

Dad wasn't right or wrong, Mom wasn't right or wrong. No clear-cut solution there, and it's the past anyways. Daughter now knows she probably shouldn't go to Dad for random spending money after she blows through her cash. We don't know, but she may be smart enough to realize he'd help if it was for a real need or emergency.