Author Topic: Planting a seed or wasting breath?  (Read 3952 times)

Monkeycatman

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Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« on: November 23, 2013, 09:24:21 PM »
I am an uncle to a 7 yr old girl and a 6 yr old boy.  I am a mustachian with an aim to ER by 40 and a proclivity for challenging myself and others.  The childrens' mother is my 33 yr old sister, who has a great steady paycheck and a husband with the same.  Their big house is FULL of stuff: toys, books, food, furniture, bric-a-brac, gifts, pictures, etc.

Recently my nephew celebrated his 6th b-day.  I have never purchased a gift for either of them and have lived 2000 miles away for most of their lives.  This birthday, however, I was in town and decided to finally participate in his birthday celebration in a way that I felt compelled: I offered to DO SOMETHING with him.  In listing options I focused on types of activities that he does not encounter: hiking; camping; rock climbing; going to a sports game.  Instead, he chose a commercial play-zone that had games and activities that provided rewards in the form of tickets that allow you to "buy" items.  Ok, I thought, it's better than a toy that he will use once then forget about.

After spending several hours with him, doing everything he wanted (within a pre-established budget) we were chatting about it while he enjoyed some ice cream. 
I asked him, "Do you remember why we came here?"
He said, "because you didn't get me a present for my birthday." 
I replied, "This IS your present."
To which he said, "But not a REAL present."
I calmly explained to him that studies show that EVENTS are more memorable than ITEMS and that they provide greater overall happiness.  He seemed to receive the message. 

I love these little humans and they seem doomed to become "good consumers."  There are SO many messages steering them towards consumption for consumption's sake! 

Is 6 generally too early for MMM messages to take root?  Are there other ways for an uncle to get the MMM message across?

Empire Business

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Re: Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2013, 12:35:13 AM »
Later, he may not remember anything he got for his sixth birthday except for the message of wisdom from his uncle who taught him to value experiences over goods.

Or, he may space it out immediately.  Who can say?

C. K.

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Re: Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2013, 09:00:02 AM »
You offered a great alternative - to do something. He chose to do something he knew -a kiddie casino- instead of something he didn't - hiking, etc. That's fine. When given a choice, most people do what is familiar.

This suggests you need to make things like hiking something familiar to him so that he'll know the fun of those options. That's hard to do from a distance, but not impossible.

Here's what I'm learning about teaching a child from afar/teaching other people's kids/teaching frugality and other "weird" things/being an example. Take what applies; discard what doesn't.

1. Children are never too young to learn.
Even in utero they have the capacity to remember sounds, which helps them acclimate once they are out.

Even if they don't understand everything you're saying right now about mustachianistic ideals, you are building a foundation. Children catch on to rules quickly and stick with them if they are exposed to them regularly.

2. Even things that are weird or odd to other people can be a norm for your nephews and nieces.  Frugality - as with anything else- is a question of constant exposure to the idea of it.

Example 1:  My nephews' parents do TV and movie-related things for fun all the time. I don't like TV and don't have one. So, when my nephews were younger, I used to think they needed to go to the movies or they would be bored. It hated it, but I did it.  So every time they came over, that's what they'd ask to do. I had set that routine.

My parents reminded me that children do not need to go to the cinema at all. I observed that at the grandparent's house, they didn't ask to go to the movies; they'd just run around, read, create their own games. Now, when they come over, I dedicate a space for their books and toys. We go to the park, we enjoy the house and doing things together, like making dinner, talking and playing with their toys or playing outside. Not having a TV and not going to the movies doesn't bother them at my home.

Example 2: When I was a kid, it was a family norm to be overweight. Most of my relatives would make excuses about metabolism and genetics.  However, I had an uncle who was thin and healthy, so I grew up knowing that I had options. He never railed against the plump adults, he never took a stance on skinny vs. fat (as far as I know), he just was trim. I admired him and took that example, even though we never spoke of it.

3. Even if you live far away, you can still be a consistent example by communicating regularly. It helps if you are in their lives regularly so that they can see how you live, how you gather food, how you shop (or not), how you garden. They'll make the comparisons between what you do and what their parents do. Great life lessons come up at the spur of the moment, so be there for as many moments as you can.

But since you seem to live far away, you can still communicate. Discover what they like and teach them from that. For instance, if they enjoy strawberries, tell them about the strawberry seeds they'll plant when they come to visit you.

Example: As a kid, I visited my grandparents' farm maybe a couple times per year. We'd make the occasional phone calls and write letters now and then. My grandmother would always send a card on my birthday (she still does). All of this reminded me of their farm and the conversations that would naturally evolve there. Many of those conversations would be about what we on this forum would call mustachian-ism. 


4. Tell stories of frugality (and other virtues). Talk about what you or other members of the family did/do that was/is frugal.  It's especially memorable to kids if you can find examples from when a relative was their age. But the point is, you're developing a relationship with them and that relationship includes narratives of mustachianism.

Example: My grandfather always talked about building his own house, raising his 10 kids on a small budget, how to farm, etc. Those stories had a profound effect on my adult life choices.

It also helps that my mother (his daughter) speaks in good terms about my grandparents. Which brings me to another point.

5. Always be respectful of the parents and try not to contradict them explicitly.  You seem to be doing well on this.  A key to a great relationship with the kids is a respectful relationship with the parents. Just remember that if you are ever not respectful, the kids might not take heed to what you say because you'll be seen as attacking their heroes. You are there to supplement, not overhaul. [I have to remind myself of this a lot, so I guess I'm giving myself advice.]

Example: One of my great uncles is far from great.  He thinks everyone else is stupid, so he stole an inheritance from his 11 brothers and sisters. My grandfather and siblings knew what was going on the entire time and had no interest in stopping it. They are all in the mustachian Position of Strength and are not upset at all.

Still, I view this as disrespecting my grandfather - the very man who supported the great uncle through college. As you can imagine,  from a very young age I have viewed all communications from the great uncle as suspect. He might say something clever and life-changing for all I know (I doubt it; the man's a crook.), but I'll never know because I don't think it's worth the time to separate the wheat from chaff with him. I'm polite, but that's it.

I'm not saying my way of handling my great uncle is the best way, nor am I impugning your integrity and saying you'll do something criminal because you disagree with how your sister lives. I'm using this story as an extreme cautionary tale against not appearing to be against the little ones' parents (or grandparents) or anyone else they like or are around all the time; you can totally cancel out any good thing you're saying.

                            -----------------------------------------------------------

You're doing a good job. It's great that you want to cultivate a relationship with your niece and nephew.

I guess another way to live by example might be to marry and have kids of your own so your nephew and niece will have little mustachian cousins to infiltrate their home and help them rethink their parents' model of finances.  [I'm only half joking.]

Even if the little tykes don't grow up to become frugal, they will know the option is available by interacting with you. That alone is worth the time to invest in their lives.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 09:17:27 PM by C. K. »

bogart

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Re: Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 10:10:20 PM »

I asked him, "Do you remember why we came here?"
He said, "because you didn't get me a present for my birthday." 
I replied, "This IS your present."
To which he said, "But not a REAL present."
I calmly explained to him that studies show that EVENTS are more memorable than ITEMS and that they provide greater overall happiness.  He seemed to receive the message. 

I love these little humans and they seem doomed to become "good consumers."  There are SO many messages steering them towards consumption for consumption's sake! 

Is 6 generally too early for MMM messages to take root?  Are there other ways for an uncle to get the MMM message across?

Hmmm.  My sense (possibly incorrect) is that you don't/haven't spent a lot of time around little humans.  They are funny little creatures, and they are different from us big humans -- literally.  Their cognitive abilities are different from our own.  Underdeveloped in some ways (we can reasonably think of aging, and learning, as development, so they are less far along a path most of us will travel), but also freer and more independent in other ways (less shaped and less directed by "conventional" expectations/views). 

Your nephew has an understanding of what a "present" is, and what you gave him didn't meet that definition, so it wasn't a "real present."  I think that's OK and I wouldn't be offended.  He's not saying he didn't like it (as an adult likely would be if they used that phrase), just that what you gave him was something other than a "present." 

Personally I think I'd be more inclined to emphasize the pleasure you derived from having the opportunity to spend time with your nephew as part of the present you gave him, than to make a general case that "events" are more fun than "things."  The former is offering an example, the latter arguably telling him that he "should" like the present *you* gave him better than those others give/gave him.  He can work that out.  But as already noted, kids are (often) relatively more open to various possibilities so I wouldn't sweat that.

To address your deeper question, mostly I think I'd recommend finding ways to connect (more) regularly with your nephew and niece and get to know them and interact with them, if those are things you value.

MrsPete

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Re: Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 12:10:16 PM »
As the parents of two teens who've done a pretty good job learning to manage money, I think six is about the right age to start working with money /budgets /frugality.  Younger than that, it's just too abstract a concept.  Six is a good time to start providing lessons in small, concrete ways. 

CK's advice is excellent, especially the part about being respectful to the parents as you try to set a good example.

TrMama

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Re: Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2013, 01:16:16 PM »
You did great. Spending the afternoon with an uncle who cares about him is way better than a new toy. Even if it was unfamiliar to him.

Here's another pro tip about dealing with kids. Next time you want to introduce him to something don't give him the option of something familiar. Tell him, "We can do A, B or C. Which would you like?" Make sure A, B and C are all activities you like too and are completely OK with him choosing.

Six is a good age for the concept of frugality to start taking root. I've been preaching and demonstrating this to my kids since birth, but 6 is when my oldest started to get it. However, if you're not a regular part of their lives, I'd keep your expectations in check with respect to what you can accomplish.

To get your message across, lead by example and talk about money with them. Explain why at your house you do <insert frugal activity> instead of <consumer activity>. It's because you want to have more money available for <ER, travelling, whatever your goal is>. My 6yo really "got" this kind of discussion.

For example, when she was 6 she really wanted us to get a minivan. The 2006 Corrolla (manual door locks, no A/C) was totally unlike the tricked out minivans her friends parents drove. I explained that we could get a minivan, but then we wouldn't be able to go on that Disney trip she was looking forward to.

MrsPete

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Re: Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2013, 08:00:37 AM »
You did great. Spending the afternoon with an uncle who cares about him is way better than a new toy. Even if it was unfamiliar to him.

Here's another pro tip about dealing with kids. Next time you want to introduce him to something don't give him the option of something familiar. Tell him, "We can do A, B or C. Which would you like?" Make sure A, B and C are all activities you like too and are completely OK with him choosing.

Six is a good age for the concept of frugality to start taking root. I've been preaching and demonstrating this to my kids since birth, but 6 is when my oldest started to get it. However, if you're not a regular part of their lives, I'd keep your expectations in check with respect to what you can accomplish.

To get your message across, lead by example and talk about money with them. Explain why at your house you do <insert frugal activity> instead of <consumer activity>. It's because you want to have more money available for <ER, travelling, whatever your goal is>. My 6yo really "got" this kind of discussion.

For example, when she was 6 she really wanted us to get a minivan. The 2006 Corrolla (manual door locks, no A/C) was totally unlike the tricked out minivans her friends parents drove. I explained that we could get a minivan, but then we wouldn't be able to go on that Disney trip she was looking forward to.
This is very similar to the things we did to help our kids understand money at an early age, and now that mine are 16 and 19, I can say with confidence, "They got it." 

I remember so many little "light bulb moments".  One with my oldest:  We'd gone to the movie theater (which we consider a treat in and of itself -- we don't usually eat movie snacks), and she wanted a little tube of M&M candy, which cost about $3.  I gave her the $3 and told her that she had a choice -- she could buy one tube now and enjoy it while she watched the movie, OR she could hold onto her $3 and we'd stop by the grocery store on the way home, where she could buy THREE TUBES for the same money.  She didn't believe me, but she was suspicious enough to postpone her treat.  The Lord was looking out for us that day, and M&Ms were on sale; she was able to buy FOUR TUBES.  Message stuck:  You can have treats, but you should plan and buy them in a sensible way. 

I remember a similar situation with my youngest at back-to-school time:  "But, Mom, don't you see that these are $80 jeans, and they're on sale for only $40!  This is a great deal."  I failed to get her to comprehend that $80 jeans don't exist -- only $80 price tags, but when we left the store (her angry, me frustrated) and drove to Plato's Closet, where she found a whole row of gently-used jeans for $10-15, she got the point.

From about the time they started high school, we started talking about college money.  We frequently said, "No, we aren't buying ____ because we're saving for college."  Now that my oldest is in college, and she sees her friends scrambling about, trying to borrow, forced to take a semester off, or whatever . . . she has said to me OFTEN, "Mom, I'm so glad you had the foresight to save for what really mattered."  She understand clearly that most of her friends have sold a portion of their future, whereas she will graduate a free person.  She is VERY grateful that we're able to write that check every semester, and I hear her talking to her sister about it, saying, "Don't even worry that mom won't buy ____.  This time next month or next year, you won't even remember that you wanted it, but you will be so glad when you're not borrowing for college."   

Left

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Re: Planting a seed or wasting breath?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2013, 01:30:15 PM »
I don't know, experience like that doesn't mean he'd remember it...

I may have tried to build something with him, like a playhouse/birdhouse/etc... get him to learn to do things by hand/for himself. He'll have both the bonding memories and a physical object to remind him of the time :D Plus I'm not sure he understands the concept of "money" and "economy" more than it takes money to buy what he wants... So getting him to learn how to handle tools would teach him a skill.

but I do think it's a good thing to do than to just buy a present.