Author Topic: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!  (Read 14956 times)

Texas82

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Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« on: December 11, 2013, 02:40:56 PM »
My daughter will turn two this coming January, which we'll be enrolling her into some type of child care (Montessori or Primrose).  We know she's ready, as we were interviewing a couple of places she (without hesitation/pressure) joined the activities the other kids were involved in and was extremely happy to socialize within the groups.  There are other types of child cares out here, however the majority of them will put her with kids twice or triple her age...we're not comfortable with that. 

The places we've interviewed run between 700-1100 a month, 3 & 5 days a week (plus the app, supply and membership fees). 

My wife works from home, which has been a blessing for our savings.  My questions to all the experienced parents out there are:

1)  Does 650-1100/month seem to be a normal price range for a 2 year old to attend school?
2)  Do you think its too early for a 2 year old to start this type of care/schooling?
3)  If any, what alternatives would you suggest for a 2 year old?
4)  Is $8400-13,200/year for this type of care worth it for the long-haul (for both child and parents)?

our total base household income is 90,000.  I don't like to include my monthly/annual  bonus/overtime as it goes straight to our mortgage's principal balance.  No debts, except for mortgage (1100/mo, includes HOA)

Oh, we live in Austin, TX, in case anyone in this forum happens to live here that may have suggestions on places to check out.


Thanks in advance!

Lans Holman

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 02:51:52 PM »
Those prices seem pretty typical, and clearly she's ready.  Whether it's worth it or not will depend on your family's situation and what other options you have.  Does her starting school impact you and your wife's ability to work?  Or is it just for the socialization opportunities for her?

dadof4

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 03:01:04 PM »
All four of my kids started child care at age 2. I currently pay $500 for full time 5 days a week child care, though we usually leave them there for 5-6 hours. It's nice to have the flexibility when we need it.

I don't recommend splurging on fancy day care - benefits are pretty minimal compared to more working class accommodations. Supplament them at home - it's good both for them and for your relationship.

Texas82

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2013, 03:12:34 PM »
Lans, thanks for your input.  Its 95% for her socialization/learning opportunities.  The other 5% would allow my wife to work without interruptions, which isn't much at all as her hours are from 6am-230pm and our daughter is sleeping/napping for half her work day.

I'd drop her off on my way to work, which would require me to leave 15 minutes earlier...which is no issue at all.

dadof4, thanks for your input and tips.  We'll definitely be interviewing the non-fancy/cheaper daycares.  One of the fancy ones we went to (850/month),  had little to no curriculum and the toddlers were just playing with the Melissa and Doug wood toys...we both said 'we have that shit at home!'

Zette

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2013, 03:26:15 PM »
Are you looking for full day or half day?  If you don't need the childcare hours, the half day is a better bargain because she gets the same amount of socialization and you aren't paying for nap time.  If you are ok with some religion being presented (ie prayer before snack and some bible stories), many churches run good preschool programs with a developmental, play-based focus (lots of messy paint rather than alphabet worksheets).  I'm paying $750/mo for twins for three 4-hour mornings in San Diego.

gillstone

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2013, 04:01:01 PM »
If you feel she is ready, then she probably is.  My wife works from home so we were able to hold off until both of our boys were 15 months.  Its been good for both of them in terms of socialization and early learning skills.  The price range you give is probably normal for your area since urban areas can run pretty pricey. 

Texas82

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 04:20:54 PM »
Zette, I envy you!  Love San Diego! Thanks for the tip.  I believe half day is a great idea...paying for her to nap is definitely a waste!  we do have a bible school church on our schedule to interview. 

gillstone, thanks for your input!  happy to hear it worked out well for your boys

CNM

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 04:24:05 PM »
Our son is starting preschool/day care in January as well.  He will be 2 in August.  We've taken him a few times, just to see if he'd like it, and he loves it.  He's primarily with kids that are 14mo-24mo old, but occasionally will join older kids for joint activities.  The one we chose is from 8am-3:30pm, Tues-Wed-Thurs and runs $560/mo.  We live in Santa Fe, NM which I imagine has about the same COL as Austin. 

imustachemystash

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 10:16:03 PM »
I started my 2 year old in a full day program at a daycare twice a week last month but he cried all day and wouldn't nap or eat there.  The daycare told me they didn't think he was emotionally ready to be there all day.  I pulled him out and now he is at his grandma's house instead and he is so much happier.  They charged me $400/month. I think a half day program is better for 2 year olds if they are not going to preschool consistently.  The kids at the daycare who were there 5 days a week were fine because they were used the the familiar routine.  I think the prices you listed are a tad on the high side. 

Nords

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 10:39:34 PM »
You'll probably be asked to do toilet training their way, so you should decide now whether you're comfortable with that.

Socialization is a huge advantage, and so is (unfortunately) exposure to all of the germs & viruses.  They'll want you to be current on all immunizations before you show up, and don't make any big plans for the first few months... your daughter may be fighting all sorts of respiratory viruses and ear infections.  (You might get one or two as well!)  You'll certainly find out whether the chicken pox vaccine is working and whether she has any undiscovered food allergies.

On one hand, you need to drop her off and firmly say goodbye so that she gets over the separation-anxiety phase.  On the other hand you need to understand their routine and how they do things (like crafts, cleanup, food prep, time-out, types of music, book titles) so that you can follow along with those habits at home.  Our daughter used to bring home all sorts of good ideas from daycare, but she didn't always have the vocabulary to explain them to us.

Some parents have trouble adapting to the "loss of control" over their kid's daily activities-- especially when their kids come home from daycare messy, dirty, with maybe a scraped knee or bruised elbow, exhausted... and totally happy. 

Some parents have experienced a backlash from family & friends over letting "strangers" care for their kids.  Hopefully that's no longer an issue.

Everything in Moderation

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 07:10:51 AM »
I go cheap on a lot of things to save money.  Childcare is not one of those things.  I would have no problem spending a little bit more on childcare to have my kid in a higher quality program. 

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 07:31:18 AM »
2)  Do you think its too early for a 2 year old to start this type of care/schooling?

I think this depends upon the child.  My daughter loved being around lots of kids at this age.  My son didn't.  But the amount of time involved in the program you are considering seems a little long to me.  Many preschool programs (especially for toddlers) are only 2 or 3 hours per session.  At age 4, I think kids can handle quite a bit more time in a preschool classroom.  I'm not an expert, though.  Just basing this on what I experienced with my own kids.

Mega

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 07:40:04 AM »
The cost of childcare is highly dependant on the regulations in your area (child to kid ratios).

In my opinion (and what we went with) was a home daycare at 1 year of age where the daycare provider is taking care of her OWN, similarly aged, children. You can see how her children behave and make your judgements on her parenting skills based on that.

There are many advantages to a home daycare:
1 - lower cost
2 - you know who is inteacting with your child / smaller peer group
3 - fewer kids = fewer infections (at larger daycares you can literally have 'merry-go-round' repeating infections (esp Noro virus / pink eye))

4 - the money is going to the care provider, as opposed to the daycare owner (you don't have minimum wage employees watching your kids)
5 - it is in a house. Houses don't close, unlike daycares. So if you are held up at work, you have some flexibility.

Disadvantages:
1 - it is not really regulated = you need to do your homework and trust your gut.
2 - Doesn't sound fancy

Essentially, "school" before 4 - 5 years old is essentially babysitting. Don't waste your money.

GuitarStv

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 08:22:23 AM »
You didn't list the high number of kids who've died in unregulated home daycares in Ontario this year.  But I'd put that under the 'disadvantages' list myself.  No matter how nice the child care provider seems, the fact that no checking is done with regards to food preparation, first aid, early childhood education training . . . hell, you don't even need a police background check to run one of these places . . . tough to see any price advantage outweighing those negatives.

bogart

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2013, 08:58:17 AM »
My DH and I used 2 day/week FT daycare in an at-home facility from the time our son was 2 months old and never looked back.  At 3 (he had aged out of that place) we moved him to a different at-home facility that was 4 hours/day 4 days/week.  He stayed there a year and then at 4 we cut back to 2 days/week there and went to 2 full days at another place that was "institutional" as we felt a larger and more "institutional" setting (the home-based places were 5 and 4 kids each, respectively) would be useful in getting him used to the kind of setting he'd experience in kindergarten (not the academics, but the environment/routine).  Again, never looked back -- happy with all 3 of the places we used.

The prices you're listing are consistent with what we paid.  Count me among those who think good child care is well worth paying for.

Starting really early avoided the separation anxiety issue for us, so I don't have much advice on that.  Our son was clingy at the big place when I would drop him off, but otherwise not.  I do think the big place was a stretch for him in terms of what he felt comfortable with at that point, but am glad we did it (it took about 4 months, at 2 days/week, before he got comfortable enough there to be happy about being dropped off.  But except for dropoff he clearly enjoyed the place overall).

In terms of scheduling, I think the half-day places were better for DS and the full-day places were better for us, his parents (less back-and-forth).  The only one I really don't think the schedule was great for him, was the last one, as they did either 2- or 3-days in a row, not spaced out over the week.  Since that was already pretty intense for him, I don't think having the 2 days back-to-back was ideal.  Plus, spreading the benefits it offered (socialization, etc.) over the week would I think have been better for DS and me and DH as well (kept a better equilibrium).  But, no worries, we muddled through and not everything has to be perfect, even for LOs.  He loved his teachers there, and they were great.

The first home place we used was licensed and regulated (all FT such places are where we live), and while the second was not it was run by a family friend I trust.  So I cannot speak to the issues GuitarStv raises.  Being in a home-based place worked well for us, as it meant a single caregiver and zero turnover (though I do know the first place we were had actually had to close down completely some years back when the owner/operator had some health problems of her own, so there's that.  She was a mom, but not a mom to young kids at the point where we were using her facility.  Her teenage daughter helped her with the kids in the afternoons after school.). 

Our kid's pretty easy going and sociable, though like me and his dad he doesn't like large crowds (see:  comments re largest of the facilities we used).  So you can factor that in to your interpretation of my reply and its relevance (or not) to you.

RootofGood

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 09:06:42 AM »
Your costs seem well in line with what we saw in Raleigh NC when we looked a few years ago.  $550-600/mo was about the minimum for a home based daycare that was licensed.  Those actually appeal to me more than the bigger places that have near-minimum wage workers possibly giving a crap (or not) for your kids.  If you are dealing directly with the proprietor, she's less likely to beat your kids or neglect them and lose her whole business.  Can't make the same motivational argument for someone earning $9/hr at a mass market place. 

We are "lucky" to live in a mixed socioeconomic neighborhood where there are a couple of mothers near us that each run their own in home daycare.  They take in 4-5 kids (sometimes keeping a few of their own). I think that's the most the state allows without some beefed up regulation and inspections and additional staff, etc.  I haven't asked their rates but I bet they are in line with the $600/mo or so.  And probably more flexible than the mass market childcare institutions. 

Since retiring, I have taken our 1.5 year old to lots of story times at the library and play times at the community center.  I see a few of these neighborhood home daycare operators at these events.  I know one lady personally (through our kids that went to school together and they have been over to our house some for b-day parties).  They all seem like good caretakers, and keep the kids actively engaged.  That's more than what I do sometimes (plop my kid in front of an educational youtube video while I do fun stuff).

As for whether it is worth it?  If you can work and make $40-50k and pay as little as $8,400/yr (with most of that being tax deductible), I would say go for it.  Run it through a childcare FSA if you can and you'll save a bunch on taxes (including paying no payroll tax on $5000). 

I never saw the value in an ivy league preschool.  Save the $5-10k you would spend on premium preschool and drop it in a 529.  By the time your kids are 18, they will have a full ride to state university.  Or keep it for a graduate degree. 


Meggslynn

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2013, 09:36:10 AM »
1)  Does 650-1100/month seem to be a normal price range for a 2 year old to attend school? Yes
2)  Do you think its too early for a 2 year old to start this type of care/schooling? No
3)  If any, what alternatives would you suggest for a 2 year old? Your looking at your best choice. There are other alternatives but none as good as this in my opinion.
4)  Is $8400-13,200/year for this type of care worth it for the long-haul (for both child and parents)? In my opinion, definitely!

gillstone

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2013, 11:43:56 AM »
I'll add on to my post... Nords is totally right that you will spend the next 12 months dealing with various illnesses.  THereis no avoiding it really.  They either get it now or when they go to kindergarten.  The other note is to see if there is Quality Rating System for Early Childhood Education Centers for either Austin or Texas in general.  The QRS is a (usually) voluntary system is way for daycares/preschools to get rated on various measures of quality (staff training, curriculum, etc...) so parents can make an informed decision.

Last note, though I assume you already know this since your queston was posted here.  Price does not equal quality.  When going to Primrose, Montressori, Nature Montressori, etc... be mindful of whether or not you are paying for a name rather than a curriculum.  They can be great programs but there are a few that see the name as a reason to charge a premium price without offering a premium service.

Undecided

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2013, 04:29:51 PM »

Essentially, "school" before 4 - 5 years old is essentially babysitting. Don't waste your money.

I saw pretty big differences between the range of pre-schools we looked at, not that I'm claiming to have a measurement of outcomes. The difference in ambition and approach between the Montessori school our son went to and some of the day cares we saw was vast.

CNM

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2013, 05:01:04 PM »
Undecided, my experience was similar.  Some of the inexpensive daycares, that were in church basements and the like, were more like rooms where babysitting took place.  No activities or structure.  Where our son will go has things for the kids to do- art, animals to take care of, a garden, various toys. 

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2013, 05:16:25 PM »
Undecided, my experience was similar.  Some of the inexpensive daycares, that were in church basements and the like, were more like rooms where babysitting took place.  No activities or structure.  Where our son will go has things for the kids to do- art, animals to take care of, a garden, various toys.

Both of my children's preschool programs were NAEYC accredited and both were amazing (one was through a university and one was a co-op).  I think it is pretty hard to get approved by NAEYC, so if you find one that is, OP, that's a good sign. 

thepokercab

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2013, 05:57:56 PM »
We live in Phoenix, and spend $200 a month for three/half days a week.  The school is affiliated with our church so that might be why its cheaper, but we think its great and our daughter seems to really enjoy it. There is definitely a curriculum and I would not characterize it as just babysitting. 

Another benefit is that if both parents are working you can claim a portion of pre school tuition in the Child Care/dependent care section on your taxes.  Not sure how it would apply when one parent is working from home. 

Emilyngh

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 06:40:32 PM »
.... There is definitely a curriculum and I would not characterize it as just babysitting. 
..

Sorry, not to pick on you (I know that your daycare is inexpensive, I am just commenting in general), but the idea of a "curriculum" for a 2 year old is ridiculous.    Studies have not shown any such thing to be advantageous in any way for such young children, if anything it's detrimental.   2 yr olds need to be able to play in a safe environment, that's pretty much it (pretty much babysitting).   An expensive program will probably not be much better for this than a church basement.

 I know that as parents the idea that our toddler geniuses are being "intellectually stimulated" is enticing enough to feel good about paying a pretty penny for it, but the reality is that paying for such (vs your average safe, church basement) is probably no smarter than paying for lunches out, or the newest technologies, or large houses, etc. etc.   


« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 06:42:47 PM by Emilyngh »

abhe8

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 09:02:59 PM »
yeah that! you can provide all the "instruction" and "stimulation" at home, unless you truly need the babysitting feature for your wife to work. and of course the daycare is better then a DVD babysitter while mommy works all day.

catccc

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 10:01:45 PM »
Devils advocate here.  Just because your kid likes or stands something doesn't mean you should do it.  I bet my kids would be pleased to eat candy all day, doesn't mean I should do it.  I say hold off.  Not that 2 is too young, but it is just unnecessary.  Essentially, a waste of money.  And forget about the curriculum.  Kids that age learn by playing.  Hyperliterate kids typically score lower than later reading peers on reading comprehension in later grades, you don't need to rush things.  There are many years for structured curriculum later.  Kids rarely went to school at 2 to be socialized a generation ago, and I don't think we are any better off doing it now.  If you are at it for socialization, find a playgroup to go to a couple times a week max.  Think about what value you are or your child is getting from this preschool before you pony up the cash.  If you are after giving your kid some kind of advantage by sending her to a fancy preschool: FWIW, I have a 5 year old with a fall birthday that started 3 half days of preschool 2 months shy of 4.  She was way ahead of her peers that had been in school the prior year, maybe because of, not despite, being home with a parent, and plenty socialized through informal playdates with a group of 7 mom friends and their 14 kids.  Our spring chick will be 3 in April and will start 2 half days of preschool in Fall 2014.  Only doing 2 days because she is slightly younger at the start of school and will end up doing two years of preschool, so we have some savings of one less day.  The fact is both girls would be as happy as clams being in preschool or kindergarten 5 full days a week (this is when a well meaning parent would parrot "she's obviously ready!"), but the diminishing returns on each additonal day or hour of school means that it isn't good use of our money.  And these aren't my thoughts because I'm anti formal education or anything.  We
take education pretty seriously around here, partially because of socioeconomic status, and also because I'm a mean Chinese mom that is genetically coded to value formal education and I will demand that my children become either doctors, lawyers or accountants.  I'm not serious, I don't care what they do as long as they can take care of themselves and be productive members of society when they adults.  But that tiger mom book was so familiar to me...  good luck with child rearing whatever your decision is!

 I should also disclose that our older kid is, in fact, hyperliterate.  Some kids will learn to read even if you insist they play with dirt all day.  I'm just saying there's no need to rush things.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 10:07:20 PM by catccc »

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2013, 05:28:12 AM »
There are many years for structured curriculum later.  Kids rarely went to school at 2 to be socialized a generation ago, and I don't think we are any better off doing it now.  If you are at it for socialization, find a playgroup to go to a couple times a week max.  Think about what value you are or your child is getting from this preschool before you pony up the cash.  If you are after giving your kid some kind of advantage by sending her to a fancy preschool: FWIW, I have a 5 year old with a fall birthday that started 3 half days of preschool 2 months shy of 4.  She was way ahead of her peers that had been in school the prior year, maybe because of, not despite, being home with a parent, and plenty socialized through informal playdates with a group of 7 mom friends and their 14 kids.

I agree that informal playgroups are great.  We were involved in those during the early years and loved the experiences.  I do wonder if the OP's wife's job makes this a little too tricky to schedule into their week.

I also agree with catcc that parents shouldn't send their kids to preschool with the hope of creating geniuses.  Play-based learning is wonderful and a good preschool environment provides a nice amount of structure.  Good quality programs do not have to be super expensive.  If you can find one that is subsidized by the government at a nearby university or if you can join a co-op (and don't mind helping out with the work at the school), you can spend about $200-$300 a month, at least in the areas where I have lived--could be more in Austin.

But for the record, we also felt it best to start preschool at age 3.

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2013, 06:39:12 AM »
Okay, I will try to restrain myself from saying anymore on this thread after this post. :)

Just wanted to clarify a few things.  OP, if you are interested in finding a preschool run through a university, its program will most likely run on a shorter yearly schedule than other preschools.  The one my son attended started each semester one week after the college students began classes and would end one or two weeks before (so that the undergrad and grad students who helped there could have time to study for finals).  So school was from the beginning of September to the beginning of December, and then from the middle of January to end of April.  Since you say that 95% of your preschool need is socialization and only 5% is for your wife's uninterrupted work, you might still like this option.  My son's preschool didn't offer classes until age three, though.

For the preschool co-op my daughter attended, I loved it, but there were politics there just like there are in any parent-run organization.  Just be aware of that.  Our experience was 95% positive.

I think that good early childhood educators are worth their weight in gold.  You will know them when you see them--their energy, their attitude, their warmth, etc.

Finally, if you are not living near family and your daughter pretty much spends all of her time with you and your wife, a few short preschool classes each week could be very helpful in fostering a bit of independence in your child before she starts kindergarten.  I think it is a big shock for a child to go from having a parent around all the time to being away from them for 6-7 hours a day.  I'm not really saying this to the OP, just saying it in general.  But I hesitate to say this because I don't want attending preschool to be thought of as babysitting.  The children do learn there, especially during ages 3-5.

catccc

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2013, 07:29:35 AM »
Also, when you are selecting a preschool, I've found (in two years of school choosing) that the little things make the difference/make you happy as a parent.  Curriculum, whatever.  Here's what we loved about our daughter's preschool-
-Vegetarian snack, organic when possible, and real foods always.  (Other schools had parents take turns, which means pirates booty, donut holes, and other gross snacks we'd prefer our kids not to eat.) 
-Meeting (it's a Friends School) with the whole school daily (daughter was very inclined to interact with kids outside of her immediate class of 8 kids).  Even though it is technically a religious school (and we are not that religious), no mention of God. 
-High expectations in terms of student behavior.  Can you believe they can get a whole school (like, IDK, 50 kids 4 and under) to be silent for  many minutes at a time?!  (Silence is the foundation of Quaker Meetings)  Forget curriculum, that is what preschoolers need to learn, some restraint. 
-Again, because it's a Quaker school, kids cannot even pretend play violent scenarios. 
-No character clothing allowed.  Keeping our kids from consumerism is important to us.  One kid wore a Thomas shirt to school and had to change into something from the school bin immediately. 
-And teachers that enforce the values of the school. 

None of what we loved about the school was what they were supposed to be learning, or teaching methodology.  It was about lifestyle and values.  Public school is gonna piss me off, but at least she'll have a good foundation.

Texas82

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2013, 03:58:42 PM »
Wow!  Thank you all for your input and sharing your experiences, they were all extremely helpful!  Happy Holidays everyone!

MrsPete

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2013, 01:51:46 PM »
Since you don't actually need the service as day care . . . but are looking for socialization for her, I think 2-3 is a fine age to begin.  However, you've named the two most expensive options:  Mont. and Primrose.  Before you make a decision, look around at all your options.  Don't get too caught up in "curriculum".  At that age, they're finger painting and talking about the color yellow.  For those concepts, a licensed teacher doesn't have a whole lot more to offer than the enthusiastic high-school grad with creative ideas.  The "teacher" whom I liked best when my girls were in day care was a high school grad + a CNA; she had no formal training in early childhood education. 

I'd look for something along the lines of a Mother's Morning Out at a church.  These tend to be 2-3 days a week, mornings only.  In your shoes, I'd vote for a half-day program to allow her to ease into the concept.  These programs are also considerably cheaper than full-time day care.  My girls always enjoyed /remembered most "themed weeks", so I'd say look for a program that plans in that way.  That is, the lead teachers says (in summer), this week will be water week -- bring bathing suits, and we'll be playing in the sprinkler and playing beach ball games.  Next week will be animal week, bring your favorite stuffed animal, or it's apple week -- we're going to draw pictures of apple trees, eat green and red apples, count seeds in the apples and plant the seeds in cups. 

If I were you, I'd avoid an at-home day care.  I'm not saying they're bad -- not at all -- but in such a set-up you're going to get a smaller group, and your daughter is likely to spend her time with younger /older children.  For your goals -- socialization and familiarization with group behavior -- she'd be better off in a small class of all 2-year olds. 

Once she starts, ask her lots of questions about whether she's making friends, whether she's enjoying herself, etc.  She's old enough /verbal enough to tell you.  If you're not satisfied, if your goals aren't being met, keep looking.

Consider, too, that you could meet these same goals though swim lessons, gymnastic lessons, or day camp next summer, all options which are available for 2-3 year olds.  Though that wouldn't provide your wife with any time for working alone.



avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2013, 05:54:13 PM »
The "teacher" whom I liked best...

Why the need to use quotations marks?  Seeing this from a professional educator saddens me.

I wonder if the people who are so down on early childhood teachers actually found good ones for their children.  If so, did these parents spend very much time in their kids' classrooms?  I was amazed with both of my children's preschool teachers.  Like I said before, I'm not an expert...but I think that working with a classroom of small children requires not just innate qualities, but also skill and education.  But, hey, even if only innate qualities are required to make a teacher great, they are still gifts that not every person has.  I admire the ones that can do this work well.

Emilyngh

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2013, 06:24:49 PM »
The "teacher" whom I liked best...

Why the need to use quotations marks?  Seeing this from a professional educator saddens me.


I imagine the quotes refer to her second half of that sentence: "she had no formal training in early childhood education."    Daycare workers without teacher credentials are daycare workers, not teachers.   Unless there's something wrong with "only" being a daycare worker, I don't see why you'd take issue with this.

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2013, 07:35:02 PM »
If you wanted to explore free options, there might be a decent amount of socialization and learning you can get without paying anything.  I take care of our 1.5 year old and like to get him out of the house and not just expose him to whole lots of me (as awesome as I am).  FYI I'm a dude.

Each week, our local library offers 3 different toddler story times that last around 30 minutes.  And after that, we head over to the community center gym for the free open play time for ages 0-5 for another 1.5 hours.  Most days there are at least a few kids up to a couple dozen kids there.  Important learning like sharing and taking turns happens naturally.  I usually meet my stay at home mom friend and her 1.5 year old at the library/gym time. 

Other libraries 5-10 minutes away also offer free programs on music, arts, and crafts during the day. 

Our History Museum and the Natural Science museum also host programs during the day for young children.  Most of these have a nominal fee of $1-$5 per class.

Then there are play dates with others in our neighborhood who have kids the same age. 

Most of the organized activities at the museums, community center and the library tend to occur between 9 am and 2 pm, so if your community is like mine, your wife might be SOL.  I find out about these activities from the newspaper of the individual institution's web page.

Just a thought if you wanted to get social interaction and some learning without paying five figures per year (assuming 95% of your motivation was socialization and learning, and not simply child care). 

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2013, 06:09:03 AM »
The "teacher" whom I liked best...

Why the need to use quotations marks?  Seeing this from a professional educator saddens me.


I imagine the quotes refer to her second half of that sentence: "she had no formal training in early childhood education."   

Maybe.  There are people who do not have a teaching license and/or didn't obtain their degree in education but are hired by private elementary and high schools to instruct students.  I've never seen anyone refer to them as "teachers".

mm1970

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2013, 03:07:16 PM »
I don't think preschool is a waste of money.

I have two boys.  #1 was in a home daycare until 3.5 and then he had two years of preschool.  I think preschool was a big help to prepare him for kindergarten.  The Kinder teachers said they could always tell which students had preschool.

#2 is currently in a home daycare at 17 months.  Several of my friends are putting their 18 month olds into Montessori right now.

I'm conflicted.  On one hand, our home daycare is $13k per year.  Montessori here, however, is $15k per year, shorter days, not counting the summer and not counting the holiday weeks off (so, $15k per year is only about 36 weeks, you have to find alternate arrangements for the other weeks).

I will certainly send my second son to preschool at either 3 or 4, but I don't have the flexibility to do partial days, 2 days/ week.  I need full time preschool, or something very close (4 weeks off per year is fine).  Montessori would be tempting if it worked into my schedule, but it doesn't.

I think 1-2 years of preschool is just as good as 3 years.

Do be prepared for the viruses.  My boys were in daycare at 3 months, they got sick quite a bit that first year.  I was breastfeeding for >1 year for the first and 10 months for the second, so they tended to recover quickly.  Now my school aged child rarely gets sick.

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2013, 10:02:08 PM »
Why not look into a co-op preschool the parents "work" one of the days at the school, and the others the child is their with out.  Plus that way you know exactly what is going on.  And they cost less because of parent participation.  Both my kids went to one with me and it worked out great!

MooseOutFront

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2013, 10:32:19 PM »
Next September we're closely considering a Spanish Schoolhouse for our then 2 yr old daughter.  The cost is $900 per month full time hours though I think the issue with Christmas and summers may be the same as Montessori.  It's apparently a preschool where they don't teach Spanish, they just speak it to teach all the normal stuff.  We're in DFW, but I would think Austin may have something similar if you're just looking to compare alternatives.

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2013, 08:34:33 AM »
For Moose Out Front, I'm laughing a little about a day care where they speak Spanish-- considering the prejudice in Arizona against Spanish, our neighbor was looked at sideways when she hired a Mexican nanny and asked her specifically to speak Spanish to the kids and not worry about English.     

Our kid attends a bilingual school here in Flagstaff (trilingual acutally, because there's a Navajo option too)-- and we have to sign all kinds of paperwork each year that says we fully understand that much of the instruction will be given in (gasp!) languages other than English.  (Arizona law specifically states English-only in the classroom, and getting this school established took a lot of work.)

I think a Spanish-speaking day care is a great idea, and I would have enrolled our kid in one if it had been an option.   

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2013, 04:08:39 PM »
For Moose Out Front, I'm laughing a little about a day care where they speak Spanish-- considering the prejudice in Arizona against Spanish, our neighbor was looked at sideways when she hired a Mexican nanny and asked her specifically to speak Spanish to the kids and not worry about English.     

I know!  We have the luxury of our neighborhood public school with 30-40% of the students that speak English as a second language
(with Spanish being the widely predominant first language).  Virtually all communications are in English and Spanish.  I like it as it gives me extra practice in Spanish, and I hope it will give my children a little language instruction as well (even though it isn't a formal part of the school). 

We have seriously thought about spending a year or three overseas just for the cultural exposure for the kids.  Then we realized we have that particular luxury right next door.  I mean that in a non-sarcastic way. 

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2013, 04:16:50 PM »
The "teacher" whom I liked best...

Why the need to use quotations marks?  Seeing this from a professional educator saddens me.


I imagine the quotes refer to her second half of that sentence: "she had no formal training in early childhood education."   

Maybe.  There are people who do not have a teaching license and/or didn't obtain their degree in education but are hired by private elementary and high schools to instruct students.  I've never seen anyone refer to them as "teachers".

Some of the best teachers I've ever met fit this description exactly.  Did you leave out the word "not" after "anyone"?

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2013, 05:45:00 PM »
The "teacher" whom I liked best...

Why the need to use quotations marks?  Seeing this from a professional educator saddens me.


I imagine the quotes refer to her second half of that sentence: "she had no formal training in early childhood education."   

Maybe.  There are people who do not have a teaching license and/or didn't obtain their degree in education but are hired by private elementary and high schools to instruct students.  I've never seen anyone refer to them as "teachers".

Some of the best teachers I've ever met fit this description exactly.  Did you leave out the word "not" after "anyone"?
That was the point I was intending to make, yes.  I am sorry that I was confusing, Lans.

We have seriously thought about spending a year or three overseas just for the cultural exposure for the kids.  Then we realized we have that particular luxury right next door.  I mean that in a non-sarcastic way.

I have a feeling that you wrote this last sentence out of fear that I would pounce on your, Root. :(  I feel bad that my remarks were pretty aggressive earlier.  Sometimes the Mama Bear in me comes out...I don't know if it ever really helps when she does. (FWIW, I didn't think that what you wrote was sarcastic. I thought it was wonderful that you see the bilingual classroom as being a benefit for your children.)

RootofGood

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2013, 07:56:13 PM »
We have seriously thought about spending a year or three overseas just for the cultural exposure for the kids.  Then we realized we have that particular luxury right next door.  I mean that in a non-sarcastic way.

I have a feeling that you wrote this last sentence out of fear that I would pounce on your, Root. :(  I feel bad that my remarks were pretty aggressive earlier.  Sometimes the Mama Bear in me comes out...I don't know if it ever really helps when she does. (FWIW, I didn't think that what you wrote was sarcastic. I thought it was wonderful that you see the bilingual classroom as being a benefit for your children.)

No, wrote that I wasn't being sarcastic because I'm sarcastic a lot and what I wrote sounds kind of sarcastic.  Many (most?) people would look down on intentionally choosing our school given the socioeconomic composition.  I certainly had doubts about sending my kids there before they started in kindergarten.  Then I spent a lot of time in the classroom with these other kids that no one expects to succeed or be smart.  Preconceived notions shattered. 

As my first generation immigrant wife likes to remind me "these kids aren't stupid, they just didn't speak English when they were little and their parents don't know English.  Those kids are me when I was their age".  Mrs. RootofGood turned out alright, and I figure most of these kids will too.

In any event, we are able to afford spending a year or two abroad with our kids to give them some cultural enrichment.  Then I realized that idea was silly, since we don't have to do anything different other than stay right where we are.  It really is a luxury in a way, and one that I have heard people literally pay for (bilingual preschools being all the rage and you have to pay up for the privilege). 

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2013, 10:48:20 PM »
The "teacher" whom I liked best...

Why the need to use quotations marks?  Seeing this from a professional educator saddens me.

I wonder if the people who are so down on early childhood teachers actually found good ones for their children.  If so, did these parents spend very much time in their kids' classrooms?  I was amazed with both of my children's preschool teachers.  Like I said before, I'm not an expert...but I think that working with a classroom of small children requires not just innate qualities, but also skill and education.  But, hey, even if only innate qualities are required to make a teacher great, they are still gifts that not every person has.  I admire the ones that can do this work well.
My daughters had excellent day care and preschool experiences, but the people who cared for them at that point in their lives weren't actually teachers.  They were care givers.  They're not the same thing. 

Care givers don't have the same responsibilities that teachers do.  Their primary goal is to keep the kids protected, well-fed, cleaned up -- they're much more "hands on".  They provide early socialization.  They are not responsible for formal curriculum, for testing, for maintaining records of the kids' academic progress, for aligning instruction to the state mandates, for adherence to IEPs and other special requirements -- you know, the kind of things for which teachers are responsible.  The lessons the kids learn in day care, of course, are much simpler than those in "real school", but they're age appropriate -- nonetheless, if they don't master those lessons, there's no academic consequence, no remediation.  This isn't belittling a day care provider's job or saying that they don't have certain "innate qualities"; rather, it's just a matter of fact that it's not the same as a teacher's job.

Incidentally, an older relative of mine worked her whole career (she has a masters degree in Early Childhood Education) training day care caregivers.  Our state says that each age-group of preschoolers must have one "lead" caregiver, and that person must have some formal training in Early Childhood Education; her assistants must be high school graduates.  My relative is a bit miffed when people refer to "her trainees" as teachers.  She says rather adamantly doesn't train teachers.  She jokingly says that the teachers can mess the kids up later, but she's teaching people to car for young children.   


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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2013, 11:33:22 AM »
My daughters had excellent day care and preschool experiences, but the people who cared for them at that point in their lives weren't actually teachers.  They were care givers.  They're not the same thing. 

Don't take this as an "argument," because it's not, but I'm struck by the range of what "preschool" can mean. Our experience with "pre-school" Montessori (a school of four classrooms, with a robust teaching and administrative structure, with each classroom having a college-graduate who has taken at least a one-year Montessori program, and one or two assistants) has been much more like "school" than like the care you describe, notwithstanding the absence of elements like testing and addressing state standards (and I'm not sure those are ultimately what makes the distinction between being a "teacher" and not). One of my family members ran a daycare for 35 years (and I attended it, long ago) that was "care," and the differences are striking. As I noted somewhere else here, I make no claim about eventual outcomes, but the range of ambition in the approaches I've seen is significant, and something I found very surprising when I was looking at pre-schools for my older child (my expectations obviously having been greatly influenced by my family experience with a daycare).

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2013, 12:57:27 PM »
Along the same lines as what Undecided said, I also think that there is definitely a spectrum of quality teaching in the early childhood world.  When my daughter was age 4, her preschool teacher taught all 11 of her students how to read before they started kindergarten.  I think that's very impressive.  The teacher came up with her own method. Her program was fun and she was able to accomplish this by only working on reading skills about 15 minutes each day.  She also taught them a lot about science, too.  I do think that my daughter's ease with elementary school can somewhat be attributed to this.  So I really do consider this woman a teacher.

EDIT:  I do not know what her success rate was with other classes before or after that year.  There were a few precocious children in my daughter's class, but not all of the children were.  But none of the children in her class had learning disabilities, as far as I know.  Anyway, I still think it was a great accomplishment for this teacher.

The "teacher" whom I liked best...

Why the need to use quotations marks?  Seeing this from a professional educator saddens me.

My daughters had excellent day care and preschool experiences, but the people who cared for them at that point in their lives weren't actually teachers.  They were care givers.  They're not the same thing.

Care givers don't have the same responsibilities that teachers do.  Their primary goal is to keep the kids protected, well-fed, cleaned up -- they're much more "hands on".  They provide early socialization.  They are not responsible for formal curriculum, for testing, for maintaining records of the kids' academic progress, for aligning instruction to the state mandates, for adherence to IEPs and other special requirements -- you know, the kind of things for which teachers are responsible.  The lessons the kids learn in day care, of course, are much simpler than those in "real school", but they're age appropriate -- nonetheless, if they don't master those lessons, there's no academic consequence, no remediation.  This isn't belittling a day care provider's job or saying that they don't have certain "innate qualities"; rather, it's just a matter of fact that it's not the same as a teacher's job.

Incidentally, an older relative of mine worked her whole career (she has a masters degree in Early Childhood Education) training day care caregivers.  Our state says that each age-group of preschoolers must have one "lead" caregiver, and that person must have some formal training in Early Childhood Education; her assistants must be high school graduates.  My relative is a bit miffed when people refer to "her trainees" as teachers.  She says rather adamantly doesn't train teachers.  She jokingly says that the teachers can mess the kids up later, but she's teaching people to car for young children.   

I know I am going to regret getting into this again.  But if you wanted to call your child's daycare provider a caregiver, I think it would have been best to call her as such.  I know that I am a sensitive person and maybe I read too much into the quotation marks, but that remark seemed offensive to me.   If it didn't seem that way to anyone else, then I am sorry that I made such a production out of it.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 02:46:02 PM by avonlea »

okiedoke

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2013, 01:53:45 PM »
I have a suggestion, and hope it might be helpful.   

We've had our 3.5 year-old in mother's-day-out type programs since he turned 2.  Last August, we switched him to a Spanish immersion program -- all teachers speak exclusively in Spanish.  It has been fantastic.  My wife is an early childhood education specialist, and Montessori-biased, but she loves the program.  Our other child will start in this program at age 2. 

One of the things that I want to give to our kids is an appreciation for other cultures, and the gift of language.  I figure that most preschool is just play time, but at least this way they're actually learning something useful -- and they really do learn (it's kind of amazing how much their little brains soak up language at this age).

Also, it's no more expensive than traditional day care / preschool.  I bet that Austin has some similar programs.   (In fact, 5 seconds of google popped these up:  http://www.preescolarte.com/   http://www.austinbilingualschool.com/  and there seem to be several more options too).

EDIT:  Just read through the thread and noticed a couple other folks had similar good results with immersion programs.  Glad to hear others have had that experience too.   
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 02:02:21 PM by okiedoke »

avonlea

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2013, 08:19:28 PM »
Okay, so I won't seem confusing to the OP,  I do still believe in play-based learning.  Even though my daughter's teacher focused on academic learning for a short amount of time each day, the children spent most of their time playing at the co-op.
My son's school had short lessons but they were focused on more basic skills--emotions, days of the week, etc.  He was not yet ready to learn more than this, so that was fine with us.  He very much enjoyed the play aspect of his time in preschool and it was helpful for him to gain social skills there.

MooseOutFront

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Re: Experienced Parent(s)' opinions needed!
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2014, 10:03:08 AM »
I have a suggestion, and hope it might be helpful.   

We've had our 3.5 year-old in mother's-day-out type programs since he turned 2.  Last August, we switched him to a Spanish immersion program -- all teachers speak exclusively in Spanish.  It has been fantastic.  My wife is an early childhood education specialist, and Montessori-biased, but she loves the program.  Our other child will start in this program at age 2. 

One of the things that I want to give to our kids is an appreciation for other cultures, and the gift of language.  I figure that most preschool is just play time, but at least this way they're actually learning something useful -- and they really do learn (it's kind of amazing how much their little brains soak up language at this age).

Also, it's no more expensive than traditional day care / preschool.  I bet that Austin has some similar programs.   (In fact, 5 seconds of google popped these up:  http://www.preescolarte.com/   http://www.austinbilingualschool.com/  and there seem to be several more options too).

Thanks for posting your experience with this.  I'm looking forward to seeing how my daughter responds to it next year.  I will be amazed if the little booger actually learns Spanish by kindergarten.