Author Topic: OMG carseats  (Read 12808 times)

Zora

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OMG carseats
« on: February 10, 2015, 09:13:46 AM »
God I hate researching and buying baby gear.

Is it possible to do "extended rear facing" in a compact car?  What car seat should I get? 

Sigh.

KCM5

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 10:29:28 AM »
What do you mean by compact?

If the car seat can go in the middle a compact car should be no problem. Even our huge car seat that will go to 50 lbs/43 inches rear facing has plenty of room if its in the middle seat (safest position anyway) of our Prius. I know a Prius isn't exactly a tiny car, but for what its worth it also fit fine in the '98 VW Golf we had.

If you have more than one kid I'm sure it gets more complicated although I know people do it.

Check out some car seat blogs (I like carseatsforthelittles.com). They're big into extended rear facing. We have a clek foonf. Its crazy expensive (we paid $300), so I'm not saying you should get one. But its a pretty sweet seat.

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 11:02:14 AM »
There are tons of youtube videos and blogs that show how car seats look.
Maybe get an idea of what you want, and then google it specifically?

A lot will depend on how tall you are.  There are going to be a lot more options that fit behind me (I'm 5 foot tall) than would work behind my 6'3" brother in law in a compact car.

mm1970

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 01:28:05 PM »
Sure you can.

We faced our first son rear facing until 18 months.

The second one?  Um, 2?  Maybe a little later?  I don't remember exactly, but the only reason we switched him forward, really, was because we had him in the middle (had to for size of car), and he kept kicking his big brother in the face.

Do a little research on safety, etc.

We have used several different carseats:
1. Diono radian. Nice and narrow but very tall, and very hard to do rear-facing in a small car like ours.
2. Britax - Roundabout, Marathon, Frontier (they get bigger as you go down that list).  Britax can be pricey - I tend to buy at Albee baby because they often sell the discontinued and unpreferred colors at a steep discount.  And, according to my spouse, Britax seats are FAR superior for ease of installing in and out of the car.
3.  Cosco Scenera - this was a seat we bought for our second car, and it was cheap and worked fine.  When that car was totaled in an accident, the insurance company paid to replace the carseat. We got a Britax.

Zora

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 08:42:04 PM »
I have an Impreza and a Corolla.  Two years is the current recommendation for rear-facing, and there are overwhelming statistics about how it is so safe you should do it for as long as possible. 

I am very aware of the existence of YouTube and Google.  Use of these resources has led me to the understanding that there is a tradeoff between getting a seat that is big enough to fit a larger child, and being able to angle it into the backseat of a small car so that the kid can face backwards. 

Reading and researching about this shit is painful to my brain and eyes.  I was hoping a fellow Mustachian would have already devoted a little effort into finding something that doesn't cost $300 and doesn't require a huge SUV to accommodate its size.

Scandium

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 09:45:51 AM »
Sure you can.

We faced our first son rear facing until 18 months.

The second one?  Um, 2?  Maybe a little later?  I don't remember exactly, but the only reason we switched him forward, really, was because we had him in the middle (had to for size of car), and he kept kicking his big brother in the face.

Do a little research on safety, etc.

We have used several different carseats:
1. Diono radian. Nice and narrow but very tall, and very hard to do rear-facing in a small car like ours.
2. Britax - Roundabout, Marathon, Frontier (they get bigger as you go down that list).  Britax can be pricey - I tend to buy at Albee baby because they often sell the discontinued and unpreferred colors at a steep discount.  And, according to my spouse, Britax seats are FAR superior for ease of installing in and out of the car.
3.  Cosco Scenera - this was a seat we bought for our second car, and it was cheap and worked fine.  When that car was totaled in an accident, the insurance company paid to replace the carseat. We got a Britax.
18-24 months is not extended rear facing, that's the legal minimum in most places I believe (2 years).

 Recommended (and the law in for example sweden) is rear facing up to 4 years old. That's what I hope to do. Trouble is finding and fitting seats that will allow this

JGB

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 11:51:55 AM »
Check your library to see if they have a copy of "Baby Bargains". Ours does, and it's great for breaking down what things to look for and consider in most of the major categories of baby stuff, along with a review of all the major products (with pros/cons and an A-F grading system).

KCM5

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 02:49:35 PM »
I was hoping a fellow Mustachian would have already devoted a little effort into finding something that doesn't cost $300 and doesn't require a huge SUV to accommodate its size.

This one is inexpensive and should last past 3 rear facing: http://csftl.org/cosco-scenera-next-review/

We have an older model that fits with room to spare in the middle seat of our Prius and a Golf. Are you planning on putting the seat in the middle? Do you have other kids? From what I can tell, it's really more of a problem if you're trying to fit 2 rear facing. A single seat rear facing, as long as the top part of the seat is not massive, should fit fine in most cars in the middle of the back seat.

mm1970

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 04:23:01 PM »
Sure you can.

We faced our first son rear facing until 18 months.

The second one?  Um, 2?  Maybe a little later?  I don't remember exactly, but the only reason we switched him forward, really, was because we had him in the middle (had to for size of car), and he kept kicking his big brother in the face.

Do a little research on safety, etc.

We have used several different carseats:
1. Diono radian. Nice and narrow but very tall, and very hard to do rear-facing in a small car like ours.
2. Britax - Roundabout, Marathon, Frontier (they get bigger as you go down that list).  Britax can be pricey - I tend to buy at Albee baby because they often sell the discontinued and unpreferred colors at a steep discount.  And, according to my spouse, Britax seats are FAR superior for ease of installing in and out of the car.
3.  Cosco Scenera - this was a seat we bought for our second car, and it was cheap and worked fine.  When that car was totaled in an accident, the insurance company paid to replace the carseat. We got a Britax.
18-24 months is not extended rear facing, that's the legal minimum in most places I believe (2 years).

 Recommended (and the law in for example sweden) is rear facing up to 4 years old. That's what I hope to do. Trouble is finding and fitting seats that will allow this
My older son is soon turning 9, and way back when in the dark ages, minimum recommended was 12 months and anything over that was "extended rear facing".  So yes, 18 months (or so) was extended.

Mommy brain being what it is, I don't remember EXACTLY when we turned our second son.  Pretty sure it was after two.  I was aiming for it to be more like age 3 or 4, but the face-kicking thing started and we switched him over.  It was probably summer time, I'm guessing he was probably 25-26 months.  The Britax Roundabout we had would face rear just fine in our small cars, but fits best in the center seat.  In the sides, you start interfering with driver's and passenger's seats, and my husband is tall.

Gin1984

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 04:53:08 PM »
Sure you can.

We faced our first son rear facing until 18 months.

The second one?  Um, 2?  Maybe a little later?  I don't remember exactly, but the only reason we switched him forward, really, was because we had him in the middle (had to for size of car), and he kept kicking his big brother in the face.

Do a little research on safety, etc.

We have used several different carseats:
1. Diono radian. Nice and narrow but very tall, and very hard to do rear-facing in a small car like ours.
2. Britax - Roundabout, Marathon, Frontier (they get bigger as you go down that list).  Britax can be pricey - I tend to buy at Albee baby because they often sell the discontinued and unpreferred colors at a steep discount.  And, according to my spouse, Britax seats are FAR superior for ease of installing in and out of the car.
3.  Cosco Scenera - this was a seat we bought for our second car, and it was cheap and worked fine.  When that car was totaled in an accident, the insurance company paid to replace the carseat. We got a Britax.
18-24 months is not extended rear facing, that's the legal minimum in most places I believe (2 years).

 Recommended (and the law in for example sweden) is rear facing up to 4 years old. That's what I hope to do. Trouble is finding and fitting seats that will allow this
Actually there is no data to support a benefit of rear fasting car seats past age two and no reputable medical/scientific group recommends it in the USA.

laufen

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 05:26:13 AM »


1. Diono radian. Nice and narrow but very tall, and very hard to do rear-facing in a small car like ours.
3.  Cosco Scenera - this was a seat we bought for our second car, and it was cheap and worked fine.  When that car was totaled in an accident, the insurance company paid to replace the carseat. We got a Britax.

Our car is a small euro hatchback (Bora) and we have both of these seats. The Diono is expensive, sturdy, comfy, and heavy. It fits rear-facing, but we have it behind the passenger seat and the passenger has to sit bolt-upright in order for it to fit. It is also a little hard to tighten when rear-facing. Kid using it is currently 16 months and rear-facing.
We use the Scenera on airplanes and when travelling. It is cheap, lightweight, and has minimal cushioning. We've also used the Diono on airplanes and it is a bear.
We also have a Klippan Tiofix (Swedish) http://shop.carseat.se/car-seats/klippan-triofix.html in the same car with the Diono. Not so great rear-facing because the kid sits bolt-upright. It is also super narrow.

MustacheMom

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 05:54:11 AM »
I drive a Honda Civic and kept our son rear-facing in a Combi Cocorro car seat until he was 2.  We really liked that car seat.  I ordered it from Albee Baby for a good price.

He is now 5 years old and in a Diono Radian, which we went with primarily because Baby #2 is on the way, and we needed a narrow car seat.  The Diono is awesome and should be the last seat we need.

Based on my experience (I am six feet tall) - the only way I could have comfortably had a rear-facing car seat in my Civic was to go with a compact one, such as the Combi Cocorro.  I had it in the center of the backseat, and it worked perfectly.  Many larger sets (such as the Britax Marathon my husband used) would have forced me to push my seat up as well, which makes driving tricky because my knees then hit the steering wheel.  :) 

I know it is frustrating - carseats are one of those things where there seem to be a thousand options and it's nearly impossible to narrow it down.  In my case I was interested in safety and a good fit in a compact car.  I think there were only 3 that topped the list in both, and I then narrowed it down to the Combi. 

Once you decide what seat or seats you are most interested in take a look at Albee Baby and other online retailers.  We scored a great deal on a color that had been discontinued. 

RelaxedGal

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 07:28:41 AM »
2005 scion xA.  Our baby bucket was a Chicco KeyFit 30.  In the middle back seat I could drive (I'm 5' 4") but my husband (5' 9") couldn't put the seat back far enough.  We moved to a Britax Boulevard 70 CS ($250) at 10 months.  The convertible car seat is much less reclined than an infant seat, suddenly my husband could drive my car comfortably again.

I was hoping a fellow Mustachian would have already devoted a little effort into finding something that doesn't cost $300 and doesn't require a huge SUV to accommodate its size.

This is someplace where I think it's worth the extra $$.  We've used many cheaper seats - the Cosco Scenera is the standard rental car carseat at around $40, I think one grandma bought a $70 seat, another has a couple of handed down seats we use when we visit.  Tightening wasn't smooth, or was uneven, or just plain difficult in the cheaper seats.  Installation was more difficult.  We appreciate our Britax more after every vacation!  The extra $200 over 4 years(?) of use is worthwhile.

As for extended rear facing, I think the small car doesn't matter - once you find a seat that doesn't interfere with the front seats you're good to go for as long as you'd like to keep the kid rear facing.  I'll admit that we switched to forward facing before 2 years (legal requirement in Massachusetts is only 12 months rear facing, but I know the American Academy of Pediatrics recommend rear facing to age 2 and we intended to).  Forward facing with the car seat in the center, the headrest interferes with the view out the back window.  Upside: no headlight glare from the car behind me.  I finally decided it was interfering too much when my daughter was 3 1/2 and moved her to one side.  We are a one child household, so position was entirely preference.

My favorite review site of carseat fit: KickingTires.com Carseat Fit Check.  All new cars, but you can find older reviews and I doubt things change drastically from year to year.  They always try to fit 3 across the back seat and try an infant seat, a convertible, and a booster.

Questions that might help us help you:
  • How many kids are you trying to fit?
  • What carseat do you currently have?

Scandium

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 10:13:46 AM »
Sure you can.

We faced our first son rear facing until 18 months.

The second one?  Um, 2?  Maybe a little later?  I don't remember exactly, but the only reason we switched him forward, really, was because we had him in the middle (had to for size of car), and he kept kicking his big brother in the face.

Do a little research on safety, etc.

We have used several different carseats:
1. Diono radian. Nice and narrow but very tall, and very hard to do rear-facing in a small car like ours.
2. Britax - Roundabout, Marathon, Frontier (they get bigger as you go down that list).  Britax can be pricey - I tend to buy at Albee baby because they often sell the discontinued and unpreferred colors at a steep discount.  And, according to my spouse, Britax seats are FAR superior for ease of installing in and out of the car.
3.  Cosco Scenera - this was a seat we bought for our second car, and it was cheap and worked fine.  When that car was totaled in an accident, the insurance company paid to replace the carseat. We got a Britax.
18-24 months is not extended rear facing, that's the legal minimum in most places I believe (2 years).

 Recommended (and the law in for example sweden) is rear facing up to 4 years old. That's what I hope to do. Trouble is finding and fitting seats that will allow this
Actually there is no data to support a benefit of rear fasting car seats past age two and no reputable medical/scientific group recommends it in the USA.

what? I'm pretty sure that's not correct. I need to look up more data. But there is this:
http://www.carseat.se/rearfacing/safety-benefits/
Just looking at the development of the spine for children 3-6 you can see it's not as strong as adults.

I found a report by the AAP, which recommend up to 2 years, and then curiously notes:
"The lack of meaningful numbers of children 24 months or older in rear-facing CSSs in US databases has prevented extension of these analyses to  even older age groups of children, such as those studied in Sweden."
So since we have no data we assume it's safe? eh.. ok. Sweden has studied this and somehow came up with 4 years. Those studies are cited so I'll need to look them up.

HSLmom

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 10:20:58 AM »
I believe (google to check me) that you can have a RF older child at less of a recline than the seat recommends for infants. You don't want infants sitting straight up because there is a chance that they can block their airway with their head flopping forward and being chin to chest (this is also a danger in slings and other kinds of infant carriers), but this is okay for a child over 1 or two or something like that. 

Physics tells us that RFing is safer even after two. It would be safer for adults to RF too.


Scandium

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 10:53:33 AM »
Here's a study based on swedish accident data
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf
It notes that there are fewer injuries for children 2-4 when rear facing rather than forward facing.

"there is a noticeable increase in MAIS 2+ injury rate if the growing child switches from rearward-facing to a forward-facing booster at around 3 years of age. The injuries to the 2-4 year-olds in boosters are mainly head injuries."

And yes, even adults would probably be safer in RF car seats.

abhe8

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 11:41:40 AM »
We practice extended rf. We have a combi cocorro for the baby and radians for the big kids. Love the seats but they are not mustachisn :) also love the scenera. We use it in our second cast and at the grand parents house. It can rf to 40 lbs. And can be used from birth. I would go with scenera ($40) to minimize cost. Max rf. And its not as tall as the radian, so much better on a smaller car. As far as boosters for older kids. Vs a harness, the booster is just as safe if the kids sits up correctly. Some kids can, some can't by age 4. But, if you need another seat after three scenera, maestro ($79) is a good option. Great price and will really take you to the $12 booster. So total of $133 for all your car seat needs, even with extended rear facing.

My inlaws bought my oldest a radian at birth and she has been in it for 7 years. Not bad, but it was still $185 and she will need the $12 booster for a few more years. She is a peanut.
   
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 11:48:25 AM by abhe8 »

abhe8

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2015, 11:52:23 AM »
Yes! Grab a Scenera for $40 and be done with it. Unless your kid has an abnormally long torso at age 3, they will be fine. In all for extended rf, but not the hype and expense of the fancy seats.

Zora

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2015, 01:33:45 PM »
Awesome info, thanks guys.  Currently I just have one kid and she sits in the middle, but the plan is to have two kids less than two years apart, so eventually she'll be moving to the side.

Gin1984

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2015, 02:15:36 PM »
Here's a study based on swedish accident data
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf
It notes that there are fewer injuries for children 2-4 when rear facing rather than forward facing.

"there is a noticeable increase in MAIS 2+ injury rate if the growing child switches from rearward-facing to a forward-facing booster at around 3 years of age. The injuries to the 2-4 year-olds in boosters are mainly head injuries."

And yes, even adults would probably be safer in RF car seats.
Except the study is not comparing rf car seat to forward facing car seats.  It compares against car seats and a booster or a just belt but not with front facing car seat. 
"As can be seen in Figure 9, there is a noticeable increase in MAIS 2+ injury rate if the growing child switches from rearward-facing to a forward-facing booster at around 3 years of age." 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 02:18:23 PM by Gin1984 »

Debtless in Texas

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2015, 02:21:28 PM »
We have a baby due at the end of March and recently went through this. Fortunately, we were given a carseat and 2 bases so it cost us a total of $0.

When my family brought my nephew into town, they asked me to try to find a cheap seat. I was able to find a used one for $20 on our community's marketplace page. No accidents and far enough from the expiration date to be fine. You can get safe seats for pretty cheap it you know where to look.

Scandium

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2015, 02:22:53 PM »
Here's a study based on swedish accident data
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf
It notes that there are fewer injuries for children 2-4 when rear facing rather than forward facing.

"there is a noticeable increase in MAIS 2+ injury rate if the growing child switches from rearward-facing to a forward-facing booster at around 3 years of age. The injuries to the 2-4 year-olds in boosters are mainly head injuries."

And yes, even adults would probably be safer in RF car seats.
Except the study is not comparing rf car seat to forward facing car seats.  It compares against car seats and a booster or a just belt but not with front facing car seat. 
"As can be seen in Figure 9, there is a noticeable increase in MAIS 2+ injury rate if the growing child switches from rearward-facing to a forward-facing booster at around 3 years of age."
I am aware of that, but it's unclear to me if that is due to a difference in terminology.
Also, most of the serious injuries to kids in that age range is neck and head injuries. Which would be equally likely in any ff seat.

Gin1984

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2015, 02:26:36 PM »
Here's a study based on swedish accident data
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf
It notes that there are fewer injuries for children 2-4 when rear facing rather than forward facing.

"there is a noticeable increase in MAIS 2+ injury rate if the growing child switches from rearward-facing to a forward-facing booster at around 3 years of age. The injuries to the 2-4 year-olds in boosters are mainly head injuries."

And yes, even adults would probably be safer in RF car seats.
Except the study is not comparing rf car seat to forward facing car seats.  It compares against car seats and a booster or a just belt but not with front facing car seat. 
"As can be seen in Figure 9, there is a noticeable increase in MAIS 2+ injury rate if the growing child switches from rearward-facing to a forward-facing booster at around 3 years of age."
I am aware of that, but it's unclear to me if that is due to a difference in terminology.
Also, most of the serious injuries to kids in that age range is neck and head injuries. Which would be equally likely in any ff seat.
Actually they were clear in other parts to use rf car seat and a booster does not always have support around ones head/neck so I would not jump to thinking they just used a different word to mean the same thing.  That does not make sense.   Have you found any other studies that do have an advantage to rear facing for a car seat?

Scandium

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2015, 05:29:52 PM »
The majority of damage to kids of from their undeveloped heads and necks being flung forward. No matter what kind of seat it is, FF will be worse re this than RF. Did you see the neck development figure? Do you really believe a child isn't safer RF if they're, say 25 months old? Why do you think it's the law in Sweden and other places then? (and their child traffic death is also coincidentally lower than e.g.the us). Hell, I'd prefer to sit rear facing of I could

Gin1984

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2015, 07:56:58 AM »
The majority of damage to kids of from their undeveloped heads and necks being flung forward. No matter what kind of seat it is, FF will be worse re this than RF. Did you see the neck development figure? Do you really believe a child isn't safer RF if they're, say 25 months old? Why do you think it's the law in Sweden and other places then? (and their child traffic death is also coincidentally lower than e.g.the us). Hell, I'd prefer to sit rear facing of I could
I did see the data but that does not show any evidence that rf is safer.   I've also seem the studies which compare damage between ff and rf and find no statistical difference.  You may feel it is safer, as may lawmakers in Sweden, but the data does not show that (at least that I can find).

Scandium

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2015, 08:07:08 AM »
The majority of damage to kids of from their undeveloped heads and necks being flung forward. No matter what kind of seat it is, FF will be worse re this than RF. Did you see the neck development figure? Do you really believe a child isn't safer RF if they're, say 25 months old? Why do you think it's the law in Sweden and other places then? (and their child traffic death is also coincidentally lower than e.g.the us). Hell, I'd prefer to sit rear facing of I could
I did see the data but that does not show any evidence that rf is safer.   I've also seem the studies which compare damage between ff and rf and find no statistical difference.  You may feel it is safer, as may lawmakers in Sweden, but the data does not show that (at least that I can find).
I'd be interested to see that, do you have a link to those studies? Since apparently there is little research in this, especially in the US.

Yes, unlike you I believe the studies, medical development and basic  physics show its safer for anyone to sit rear facing. So I plan to do that with my child to 3-4 years old. Especially since it doesn't cost me much of anything why would I  not?

If you don't think so you can of course do whatever you want. I can only feel bad for your kids if they're ever in an accident.

Gin1984

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2015, 08:21:33 AM »
The majority of damage to kids of from their undeveloped heads and necks being flung forward. No matter what kind of seat it is, FF will be worse re this than RF. Did you see the neck development figure? Do you really believe a child isn't safer RF if they're, say 25 months old? Why do you think it's the law in Sweden and other places then? (and their child traffic death is also coincidentally lower than e.g.the us). Hell, I'd prefer to sit rear facing of I could
I did see the data but that does not show any evidence that rf is safer.   I've also seem the studies which compare damage between ff and rf and find no statistical difference.  You may feel it is safer, as may lawmakers in Sweden, but the data does not show that (at least that I can find).
I'd be interested to see that, do you have a link to those studies? Since apparently there is little research in this, especially in the US.

Yes, unlike you I believe the studies, medical development and basic  physics show its safer for anyone to sit rear facing. So I plan to do that with my child to 3-4 years old. Especially since it doesn't cost me much of anything why would I  not?

If you don't think so you can of course do whatever you want. I can only feel bad for your kids if they're ever in an accident.
Again, there is no study that shows that.  You have not posted one nor have I found any otherwise.  There are all statistically no different.

Scandium

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2015, 08:57:25 AM »
The majority of damage to kids of from their undeveloped heads and necks being flung forward. No matter what kind of seat it is, FF will be worse re this than RF. Did you see the neck development figure? Do you really believe a child isn't safer RF if they're, say 25 months old? Why do you think it's the law in Sweden and other places then? (and their child traffic death is also coincidentally lower than e.g.the us). Hell, I'd prefer to sit rear facing of I could
I did see the data but that does not show any evidence that rf is safer.   I've also seem the studies which compare damage between ff and rf and find no statistical difference.  You may feel it is safer, as may lawmakers in Sweden, but the data does not show that (at least that I can find).
I'd be interested to see that, do you have a link to those studies? Since apparently there is little research in this, especially in the US.

Yes, unlike you I believe the studies, medical development and basic  physics show its safer for anyone to sit rear facing. So I plan to do that with my child to 3-4 years old. Especially since it doesn't cost me much of anything why would I  not?

If you don't think so you can of course do whatever you want. I can only feel bad for your kids if they're ever in an accident.
Again, there is no study that shows that.  You have not posted one nor have I found any otherwise.  There are all statistically no different.

The swedish study above shows improved safety for rear facing. Despite your point of different seat type, as I said the injuries are because of violent head and neck movement. A FF car seat will still cause that as much as a booster. The difference is just a slight angle and the harness.

Maybe you don't think there's a study showing sufficient statistical significance, but I have not found that shows the opposite either. Do you have a study showing a 2 year old FF is as safe as one RF? (there is disappointingly few studies of this. I've trawled pubmed for a while). There is also the statistical problem of most children <4 y.o. in sweden being in rear facing, while few >1-2 y.o in the US are RF, making comparative studies hard.

The fact that kids necks are undeveloped at that stage I think it's prudent to do what I can to protect it. I'm not a fan of the precautionary principle, but in this case there are medical and physical reasons for it. And again, minimal cost for me to implement.

Statistical improvement in safety has been shown up to 24 years old (http://fcs.tamu.edu/safety/passenger_safety/certified-tech/rear-facing2.pdf). But we assume this disappears at 25 months?

falcondisruptor

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2015, 02:49:15 PM »
We got a Scenera on sale for 50% off and have used it since birth, our daughter is almost three now.  The tightening strap has started to fray, so we'll be upgrading soon to a forward/booster combo seat.  (we've called, they won't give replacement for this one strap)

If you're sick of researching, just go Scenera.  They're cheap and you can upgrade later if you want to.  The kid is going to be in that thing for years afterall. 

When rear facing, we did find things a little tight in our Mazda3.  We switched our daughter to forward facing around 16 months (12 months, 22lb is the legal line here) when she was throwing fits to be able to turn and see us.  I don't think that her size would have made much difference on the front seat room, she just might have been a bit more squished in there.

Gin1984

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2015, 04:25:57 PM »
The majority of damage to kids of from their undeveloped heads and necks being flung forward. No matter what kind of seat it is, FF will be worse re this than RF. Did you see the neck development figure? Do you really believe a child isn't safer RF if they're, say 25 months old? Why do you think it's the law in Sweden and other places then? (and their child traffic death is also coincidentally lower than e.g.the us). Hell, I'd prefer to sit rear facing of I could
I did see the data but that does not show any evidence that rf is safer.   I've also seem the studies which compare damage between ff and rf and find no statistical difference.  You may feel it is safer, as may lawmakers in Sweden, but the data does not show that (at least that I can find).
I'd be interested to see that, do you have a link to those studies? Since apparently there is little research in this, especially in the US.

Yes, unlike you I believe the studies, medical development and basic  physics show its safer for anyone to sit rear facing. So I plan to do that with my child to 3-4 years old. Especially since it doesn't cost me much of anything why would I  not?

If you don't think so you can of course do whatever you want. I can only feel bad for your kids if they're ever in an accident.
Again, there is no study that shows that.  You have not posted one nor have I found any otherwise.  There are all statistically no different.

The swedish study above shows improved safety for rear facing. Despite your point of different seat type, as I said the injuries are because of violent head and neck movement. A FF car seat will still cause that as much as a booster. The difference is just a slight angle and the harness.

Maybe you don't think there's a study showing sufficient statistical significance, but I have not found that shows the opposite either. Do you have a study showing a 2 year old FF is as safe as one RF? (there is disappointingly few studies of this. I've trawled pubmed for a while). There is also the statistical problem of most children <4 y.o. in sweden being in rear facing, while few >1-2 y.o in the US are RF, making comparative studies hard.

The fact that kids necks are undeveloped at that stage I think it's prudent to do what I can to protect it. I'm not a fan of the precautionary principle, but in this case there are medical and physical reasons for it. And again, minimal cost for me to implement.

Statistical improvement in safety has been shown up to 24 years old (http://fcs.tamu.edu/safety/passenger_safety/certified-tech/rear-facing2.pdf). But we assume this disappears at 25 months?
When a study shows no statistical difference between the two conditions, yes, that means it shows the opposite, that the two conditions have no statistical difference in injury, in this case.  You can do whatever you wish, just I am going to state when someone says there is data to show that it is safer in one way, that the statement is factually incorrect.

Kmp2

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2015, 10:11:28 PM »
There aren't any studies yet because we have just started to have car seats that are designed to rear face passed age two. (Mostly thanks to the Sweden laws). As more accidents happen and rear vs forward facing is recorded you will start to see studies like the one quoted above. It is definitely not safe to rear face passed the height and weight restrictions of your car seat, which is why so many people have to turn their kids around between one and two. When I did this research the Swedish law was based on a study that showed no change in risk between a forward facing and a rear facing car seat sometime between age three and four, I think it depended on size... We did go with the clek foonf (last years colour on a smokin sale) that allows rear facing for 90 percentile kids until age four.  As my daughter is still quite happy rear facing at 23 months I don't foresee turning her around any time soon, there is no compelling reason too, even if there is also no compelling reason not to.  The risks either way are pretty small, and the safer thing to do is drive less.

Edit: I almost forgot the real reason we got the car seat we did, it is so easy to get a tight secure install, the thing barely moves!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 10:19:40 PM by Kmp2 »

MicroRN

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2015, 10:55:31 PM »
We use Britax Marathon 70s, and I can fit them rear facing in any position in my Civic and my husband's Prius.  I have one kid FF (3.5), and one RF (2).  The downside, if you plan to extended RF, is that a lot of kids outgrow the Marathon by height for RF relatively early.  We turned my older kid around at 2.5.   


JGB

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2015, 06:55:47 AM »
Check with your library to see if they have the book "Baby Bargains." It has a large section examining the details of most major carseats, with pros and cons along with an overall review that factors in price.

iamsoners

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2015, 08:32:05 PM »
+1 on the Scenera next. just make sure to get the next, the old version's height limit is 36" which my son is pushing at 20 months.

Agree that researching baby crap is soooo overwhelming. I just do whatever consumer reports tells me to.

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2015, 01:02:49 PM »
We have a fairly small car (VW Jetta), and my husband is 6'4". My 2-year-old son has been RFing in a Britax Marathon, but has hit the height limit for RFing in that seat. So I've been doing a ton of research to figure out what car seat will work for us to keep him RFing longer while still allowing my husband to sit in the car (and without spending too much money). We settled on the Graco Size4Me - please note that there are about three other Graco seats that are identical to this one but with a different name. It is more compact than most, and definitely allows for extended RFing. I think any child would outgrow the RFing weight limit (40 lbs) before the height limit. My son is all torso, so the height limit is more important for us than the weight limit.

justajane

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2015, 04:57:58 PM »
Regarding the car seat issue, forget extended rear facing (not really, but for the sake of my point), most parent don't even keep their kid in a five point harness in my neck of the woods/city past the age of 4. I'm amazed at how young the kids are that I see in boosters at my son's early elementary school. My six (almost seven) year old is the only one in a 5 point harness still. It's the Diono Radian. He's a little on the small side, and he fits perfectly fine in it. He's begging me to let him switch, but why, when he fits so well? Am I splitting hairs? I can't imagine it isn't safer in an accident than a booster.

I've also seen 5-7 year olds in the front seat, and those parents are morons.

Emilyngh

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2015, 09:25:53 PM »
Regarding the car seat issue, forget extended rear facing (not really, but for the sake of my point), most parent don't even keep their kid in a five point harness in my neck of the woods/city past the age of 4. I'm amazed at how young the kids are that I see in boosters at my son's early elementary school. My six (almost seven) year old is the only one in a 5 point harness still. It's the Diono Radian. He's a little on the small side, and he fits perfectly fine in it. He's begging me to let him switch, but why, when he fits so well? Am I splitting hairs? I can't imagine it isn't safer in an accident than a booster.

I've also seen 5-7 year olds in the front seat, and those parents are morons.

My almost 4 year old (who is the size of your average 6 year old, not exaggerating) is in a Diono Radian.   I've had several people ask me when she'll be "moving up" to a booster, and usually reply that it won't be until she outgrows this one, which I believe is 65 lbs and 57 inches tall, which is around 8+ years old on average.   So no, I do not believe that you're splitting hairs.   

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2015, 08:21:23 AM »
We at least temporarily went up to being a two-car family. We only had 2 carseats and I couldn't see buying two more, so instead I bought one booster seat for the four-year-old (easy to move between cars and Mr. FP has been grumbling like you would not believe about the harness).

I saw something surprising in the manual--it said that a booster seat CAN actually be safer than a five-point-harness-seat in a car (like our older one) that does not have a tether for the car seat.

mm1970

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2015, 03:37:28 PM »
Regarding the car seat issue, forget extended rear facing (not really, but for the sake of my point), most parent don't even keep their kid in a five point harness in my neck of the woods/city past the age of 4. I'm amazed at how young the kids are that I see in boosters at my son's early elementary school. My six (almost seven) year old is the only one in a 5 point harness still. It's the Diono Radian. He's a little on the small side, and he fits perfectly fine in it. He's begging me to let him switch, but why, when he fits so well? Am I splitting hairs? I can't imagine it isn't safer in an accident than a booster.

I've also seen 5-7 year olds in the front seat, and those parents are morons.
If there is room in the back seat, then yes.

But I used to pick up 4 kids at the end of the day, and at least one of them was a 7 year old sitting in the front seat (with a full back booster).

People who only own pickup trucks may not have a choice either.

justajane

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2015, 04:02:31 PM »
Regarding the car seat issue, forget extended rear facing (not really, but for the sake of my point), most parent don't even keep their kid in a five point harness in my neck of the woods/city past the age of 4. I'm amazed at how young the kids are that I see in boosters at my son's early elementary school. My six (almost seven) year old is the only one in a 5 point harness still. It's the Diono Radian. He's a little on the small side, and he fits perfectly fine in it. He's begging me to let him switch, but why, when he fits so well? Am I splitting hairs? I can't imagine it isn't safer in an accident than a booster.

I've also seen 5-7 year olds in the front seat, and those parents are morons.
If there is room in the back seat, then yes.

But I used to pick up 4 kids at the end of the day, and at least one of them was a 7 year old sitting in the front seat (with a full back booster).

People who only own pickup trucks may not have a choice either.

Do the parents draw straws for which kid gets put at a much higher risk in the front seat? Are they aware that their kid is in the front seat? Do you at least disable the air bag?

The same thing goes for pickup trucks. The air bag must be disabled if a child rides in the cab.

You present these scenarios as entirely reasonable or as if you or the parents with trucks have no choice.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2015, 08:54:54 PM »
The manual for my 99 Accord (not the latest generation airbags, and cannot be disabled) says that while it is not ideal for a child to ride in the front seat, you can do it if you put the seat alllllll the way back as long as it's not a rearfacing seat. Even a toddler in a five-point harness CAN ride in the front seat. If you do it all the time, maybe you should buy a bigger car, but if it's once in a while and/or a short trip, that would be overkill. More modern cars, I believe, often have an airbag that automatically disables itself if a person under a certain weight is sitting in the passenger seat.

If you were having to pick which kid to put up front, it should be the one in a five-point harness (if you have a toddler), because s/he has the safety of the seat going for them, and the kids less protected by their seats should get the safety of the back seat.

shann123

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2015, 11:34:58 AM »
We have a 07 Ford Focus and my wife found this very useful guide

http://www.thecarcrashdetective.com/3-across-car-seat-guide-html/

mm1970

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2015, 04:41:19 PM »
Regarding the car seat issue, forget extended rear facing (not really, but for the sake of my point), most parent don't even keep their kid in a five point harness in my neck of the woods/city past the age of 4. I'm amazed at how young the kids are that I see in boosters at my son's early elementary school. My six (almost seven) year old is the only one in a 5 point harness still. It's the Diono Radian. He's a little on the small side, and he fits perfectly fine in it. He's begging me to let him switch, but why, when he fits so well? Am I splitting hairs? I can't imagine it isn't safer in an accident than a booster.

I've also seen 5-7 year olds in the front seat, and those parents are morons.
If there is room in the back seat, then yes.

But I used to pick up 4 kids at the end of the day, and at least one of them was a 7 year old sitting in the front seat (with a full back booster).

People who only own pickup trucks may not have a choice either.

Do the parents draw straws for which kid gets put at a much higher risk in the front seat? Are they aware that their kid is in the front seat? Do you at least disable the air bag?

The same thing goes for pickup trucks. The air bag must be disabled if a child rides in the cab.

You present these scenarios as entirely reasonable or as if you or the parents with trucks have no choice.
As I was picking up my children and the neighbor's children - yes, they are well aware of the risks AND well aware of the fact that our older children took turns sitting in the front.  In fact, their daughter, at 9, is now too tall for a booster in the front.  The car turns off the passenger air bag automatically based on weight.

These are entirely reasonable scenarios.  I do not have a minivan that can seat >5 people.  I am not going to buy a minivan to seat >5 people when 99.99% of the time, I am only carrying 4 (or fewer) people.  Sometimes I have to carry around 4 children.  Luckily, it is a short 0.7 mile drive home (and no, I was not interested in walking that myself with an infant, a five year old, and two 7 year olds, in an area where many sidewalks are missing).

Likewise, there are many very poor families in our school, where they only have a single vehicle, and it's an old pickup truck because their business requires it (like landscaping, for example).  If the families live in the "bussing" area of the school district, and the parents work (and thus there is nobody to get them off the "bus" at home) - then their kids get picked up at the end of the day from after school care.

If you live such a privileged life that you cannot imagine why people do things in a different way, then kudos.

justajane

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2015, 05:53:19 PM »
If you live such a privileged life that you cannot imagine why people do things in a different way, then kudos.

Obviously I touched a nerve. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I chuckled at the notion that any of my arguments speak to some nebulous notion of privilege. But I'm glad that you're here to champion the needs of a tiny percentage of disadvantaged people who both require trucks for their livelihood, have children, and only have one vehicle.

I have a sedan too and prefer not to buy a minivan. But I also don't agree to drive other kids around who shouldn't be in the front seat. Your original post said you transported 7 year olds in the front seat, and I stand by my claim that this is not safe. You are free to disagree. In your second post, the age of the front seat inhabitant aged to 9. The recommendation is still 12-13 for the front seat, but at least the kid is bigger in this scenario. I still like the idea of others to put the younger kid in the front seat in a five point harness. This sounds like the safest choice IMO.

 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 06:37:19 PM by justajane »

cynmac

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2015, 03:35:09 AM »
God I hate researching and buying baby gear.

Is it possible to do "extended rear facing" in a compact car?  What car seat should I get? 

Sigh.

Check with your insurance company. They may offer discounts and can advice you.  I have USAA and back when I had my daughter in 1991, we got two really nice, new car seats for $40 each.

K-ice

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2015, 11:46:44 PM »

"My almost 4 year old (who is the size of your average 6 year old, not exaggerating) is in a Diono Radian.   I've had several people ask me when she'll be "moving up" to a booster, and usually reply that it won't be until she outgrows this one, which I believe is 65 lbs and 57 inches tall, which is around 8+ years old on average.   So no, I do not believe that you're splitting hairs.
[/quote]"

Similar seat & my large almost 5y old is still in it. He wears size 8 and I do not know another kid his size in the 5-point harness anymore but he still is below the seat specs. We have had to show him photos of race car harnesses to help convince him it's the safest seat.

As for the rear facing debate above. I have not found a randomized study. But based on physics the rear facing is safer in almost any crash. If you were rear ended ff is probably better. Found stats that say about 7% of crashes are rear ended & most of those are at slower speed. So looking at the stats of crash types was the convincing I needed to keep my son read facing longer than most North Americans.


startingsmall

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2015, 09:05:42 PM »
We used a Cosco Scenera and a Britax Roundabout 55 in our vehicles, both of which have compact backseats (Nissan Frontier Crew Cab & Nissan Sentra).  Both worked well, but our kiddo is in on the tall side (which is crazy, because the hubby and I are both very short)... she's 2 months shy of her 3rd birthday and has already outgrown the Scenera and is about to outgrow the Roundabout based on harness height.  You may get lucky and have a short kiddo but, depending on your definition of extended rear-facing, you may also not be able to go as long as you'd like if you have a small backseat.  We're now in the process of upgrading to harnessed boosters.

MEJG

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Re: OMG carseats
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2015, 09:18:14 AM »
We love out Donio radians, the ones now could be your only car seat purchase as they transition all the way to FF booster.  We are able to fit two (one FF, one RF with a positioner) in the backseat of our Prius no problem.   We DID RF our son until 3 yr old, and are still RF our 2 yr old DD.