Author Topic: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil  (Read 4695 times)

Freedom2016

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tl;dr: is there any constructive conversation we can have with our friends about their daughter's destructive behavior?

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We are co-quarantining with a neighbor family who has kids the same ages as ours (8 and 5).

Yesterday, in a 15-minute unsupervised bout of indoor play amongst the four kids (adults were outside), the 8-year old neighbor ("8yon") threw one of our gerbils up in the air and let him fall to the ground, possibly repeatedly. We learned about it when kids brought the gerbil to us, immobile with rapid breathing. It has been hard to sort out exactly what happened since no adults witnessed it, but there is alignment from the kids' reports that 8yon was throwing the gerbil. His back legs are not working at all (possible broken back?), and while the vet gave us some anti-inflammatories to see if his condition improves over the next few days, the prognosis is grim. I expect we will have to put him down. He was our 5yo's first pet, acquired just 2 months ago.

I am a mess of emotions, starting with self-blame.  8yon has been rough with the gerbils before, though I sternly corrected her behavior at that time, and stupidly assumed that she had learned her lesson about how to handle them. My spidey senses were actually going off yesterday when we were outside and all 4 kids were inside, and I even asked 8yon's mother whether I should check on the kids. The mother waved it off, and I overrode my own instincts in favor of her confidence that they were fine.

My second layer of emotions is anger and frustration with 8yon herself - like, what is wrong with her?? While I don't think she necessarily intended to harm the gerbil, she does has a history of inappropriate behaviors in various settings that I would characterize as impulsive, not respecting boundaries, having bad judgment, and lacking empathy (e.g. she calls her mother names like 'stupid' and 'idiot' with impunity; she bullies her sister and does not stop when sister feebly says she doesn't like whatever 8yon is doing; she doesn't take 'no' for an answer from her parents and they wind up caving a lot of the time; she takes her clothes off inappropriately when around our kids like she's looking for a reaction). I know she has seen a therapist in the past (there was a time she was obsessed with death and dying, and was exhibiting low self esteem, calling herself stupid/ugly) but do not believe that that is ongoing.*

The parents feel bad about the gerbil and have offered to pay vet bills. We're unsure what kind of "taking responsibility" conversations are happening over at their house with 8yon, if any.

My question to this community is: apart from establishing and enforcing new boundaries around play dates (never will she be unsupervised in our house again, and I'm contemplating never allowing her near our gerbil(s) again), is there any constructive conversation we might have with her parents?

We're concerned that this is not a one-off situation that can/should be easily dismissed as an accident. There is a pattern here and we're not sure the parents see the pattern, or think it's serious enough to address (more/again) with therapy or other outside resources. 

Thoughts?

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* Why be friends at all with such a child and family? Good question... she is one of the few friends our own 8yo wants to play with, and her behavior is often within bounds; in fact, she can be lovely. We are good friends with the parents; the five year olds are best friends and play together extremely well. Her parents describe her maturity as improving, and say that she has been very good with the newly acquired pets in their own household (a dog, and six chickens). In short, we are pretty enmeshed with the family and feel there's no easy "cut them off" option here. We had assumed, badly it seems, that she was 'growing out' of the inappropriate behaviors that affect our own children. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 09:54:20 AM by Freedom2016 »

oldladystache

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2020, 10:07:37 AM »
It sounds like the parents are well aware of the situation, so there's no need to have a conversation. You should definitely let them pay any vet bills.

I wouldn't let that child be anywhere near my pets, supervised or not.

Many years ago my son had a friend who seemed like a nice boy but whenever he was in my house things broke and puppies cried. I told him he couldn't play here anymore but my son could play with him at his house. Nobody was mad at me, or if they were they didn't say anything.

wonkette

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2020, 10:25:54 AM »
You should definitely talk to the parents again about this, to let them know their child's behavior has escalated. I work in healthcare (though I am not a clinician and this is definitely not medical advice!) and this child has displayed two classic red flags: inappropriately removing clothes and cruelty towards animals. You new boundaries are very reasonable and you are NOT overreacting. Do not backslide on this in a few weeks, if behavior improves it will be because of your new boundaries which means they are working, not that it is time to "go back to normal."

In the conversation with the parents I would let your concerns and your new boundaries be known. IDK what your overall relationship is like but maybe you could suggest getting this child back in therapy? It sounds very needed. I would perhaps couch it as "the COVID19 restrictions have been tough on everyone, 8yon is acting out, maybe they could use someone to talk to." Ultimately you can't control what they do. 

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2020, 10:27:13 AM »
Cruelty to animals can indicate sociopathic tendencies.  Maybe just a one off but I would keep an eye on things and ask my kid to tell me if his friend escalates this kind of behavior.

Sometimes these are the type of kids who decide it is fun to throw cinderblocks off of overpasses as they get older.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 10:28:50 AM by Roland of Gilead »

Freedom2016

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2020, 10:56:09 AM »
Wonkette -- could you elaborate on the taking clothes off being a red flag? I'm not sure what to google to learn more. 8yon's mother shrugs off this behavior, saying she doesn't want her kids to be paranoid about normal, natural, human bodies. "No big deal" seems to be her m.o, but this seems way off to me.

Roland of Gilead -- yes, I'm familiar with animal abuse by children being a precursor to other, worse, behaviors as adults... but I'm having trouble teasing out how much motivation matters. Based on what I know of 8yon, I don't see her behavior as maliciously intended... but does that matter in terms of her behavior being a red flag?

Maybe not, since I can see her being a kid who wants to throw cinderblocks off of overpasses - because it seems fun, because she has no appreciation of the consequences, because it's a cool experiment. I have misgivings about where her behavior is headed and what she might drag my son into at some point.

I'm freaking myself out now.

Laura33

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2020, 11:42:42 AM »
First, don't freak yourself out.  These past few months have been tough on everyone, and many fully-grown adults are doing and saying stuff that you'd never expect.  It is not at all surprising that the kids are acting out, either from their own boredom/stress, or because they are reacting to additional stress in the home (my own DD was the freaking canary in the coal mine, often responding to my stress before I even realized I was feeling any!).

Second, you are legitimately angry and hurt and upset right now.  So give yourself some time to deal with your current crisis and manage all of the attending emotions before you do anything.  Use that time to think about what is bugging you and what your various options might be.

As you are thinking things over, I very much encourage you to try to view the situation with empathy.  This child sounds like a huge handful.  When most people see kids like that, they immediately assume it is the result of lax parenting -- and it's true that parenting that is either too lax or too authoritarian can aggravate the situation.  But many kids are just born different.  And when they act out, it is because something is wrong -- maybe they need more time running around, maybe the lights are too bright or the noises too loud, maybe they need more attention from their parents, maybe the seam on their sock is running the wrong way and irritating them with every step, maybe they're really upset about something else entirely and this is the only way they know how to express it.  The parents' job is to separate the kid from the behavior -- to establish and enforce clear, consistent boundaries, while figuring out what's going on with the kid so they can figure out how to fix the underlying problem. 

And let me tell you, as a parent of one of those, it is absolutely fucking exhausting.  You are always "on" -- always trying to see around the corner to figure out what the next opportunity will be for the kid to go off the rails, always trying to manage things like food and sleep and outdoor playtime and quiet time and all the other things your kid needs to help her stay on an even keel, always dealing with the next developmental stage right when you finally started to figure out how to manage the last one, always trying to find diversions so that you don't spend the whole damn day saying no and fighting tantrums -- and always second-guessing yourself about every single one of those things that you didn't manage to execute perfectly.  And then you get up the next morning and do it again. 

And that's when the kids go to school every day and you can entertain them with movies and playdates and birthday parties.

I say all of this because if you want to approach the situation in a way that may help, you need to put yourself in the other mom's shoes first and imagine what she deals with on a daily basis.  Maybe she is lazy and way too lax and lets her daughter run wild.  Or maybe she was looking forward to the visit as a much-needed break and expected the kids to entertain each other so she could have an adult conversation and turn her mom brain off for a little bit, and she was totally horrified when her daughter went off the rails like that and is now beating herself up for trying to take a break and is hugely embarrassed to face you.  If it's the first, then nothing you say is going to make a difference.  So assuming it is the second, how would you like someone to approach you in this situation?  An attitude of "your kid is a problem child and you need to man up and fix it" is going to go over very, very badly, because you are fundamentally judging her parenting without actually knowing anything about her or the kid, and she's going to feel like she has to defend herself and her kid against the attack.  You're much more likely to make progress if you speak with empathy, like "Julie seems to be more impulsive than usual -- is everything ok? That must be very hard to deal with, particularly with all of the quarantine restrictions.  Is there anything I can do to help?  Do you have someone like a doctor or therapist who can help you deal with this?"

Same goes with the kid, btw.  Kids know when adults do not like them. And from what I've seen, that tends to make them act up even more.  NOT because they're trying to throw it in your face -- but because most kids want to be good and earn praise, and when they know they are not liked, they get much more anxious because they know they're failing in that, and that anxiety ramps up their stress level, and they're not mature enough yet to manage that kind of emotion, so it comes out in completely inappropriate behavior.  That doesn't mean you let the kid run wild -- far from it.  What it does mean is that you have clear, consistent rules, and that you implement them calmly and with love, not with anger and "I told you not to!"  And if things don't feel right and it seems like tension is building, then anything you can do to provide a diversion and defuse the situation -- snack time, get out the sprinkler, everyone play tag, whatever -- is far, far more effective.

Depending how "normal" your kids are, it may help to do some reading up.  I highly, highly recommend "Your Spirited Child" (saved my sanity) and "1-2-3 Magic" (whether you implement the method or not, high-strung kids really, really need the calm approach and knowing what to expect that that book lays out).

Freedom2016

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2020, 01:47:57 PM »
It's always a pleasure to see Laura33 chime in. Thank you for your perspective and advice.

Please know that we are not without empathy for our friends. I realize you wouldn't get that from reading this thread, but I was trying to be as succinct as possible in describing what happened yesterday, and our upset over how she is impacting us and our kids. How I've described things upthread is not how I would raise or discuss them with our friends. I don't have many outlets in the real world to speak in unvarnished terms about what we have observed, so that's what you see showing up in this anonymous, online thread.

You are right that I have to deal with my own emotions first, and they are obviously still raw.

No doubt COVID is an added stresser - we're all 100% parenting all the time with no time off and it is fucking exhausting. Our friends have had to work full time and have had to let their girls more or less live a 'free range' life these last few months because they can't supervise them. It's been hard for us too, and yes we've seen some acting out behaviors in our kids, too.

But 8yon's concerning behaviors go back at least 4 years (as long as we've known them). In that time we have held our tongue episode after episode: we can relate to having to choose your battles (we have to do that ourselves), she's a tough kid to parent, our friends are older parents (over 50) with somewhat less energy to keep up with their children, and we get that that all adds up to a lot of challenges in their household.  We do understand that. We used to be next-door neighbors, where having any kind of boundaries was hard because the kids constantly were at our doorstep or theirs. We worked to show kindness to 8yon, and reinforce the great behaviors we saw in her, and draw lines about behaviors that weren't okay in our house.... and then we got an opportunity to move a few houses up the street. There were lots of reasons to buy the house up the street, but one big plus was definitely so that our son could have more physical distance from 8yon.

We realize there is a lot that we don't see of what they're dealing with in their home. And, having witnessed first-hand the described behaviors above, where we see our friends place no meaningful limits or consequences on 8yon, we are concerned. They are letting this stuff go? Really? Our friends tried 1-2-3-Magic a few years ago, but it didn't stick. Now that 8yon's behavior has gotten to the point of (likely) killing our family pet (gerbil remains immobile today), I am seeking advice on whether there is a conversation to have with our friends.

Yes, led by empathy. But what then? Are we only able to gently ask, "gee do you think 8yon might benefit from some additional help?"

I'd like to think we are good enough friends that we could be more forthright with them. But I might be wrong about that.

If I'm wrong, and we really can't say much to them, do my proposed boundaries upthread make sense?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 01:53:18 PM by Freedom2016 »

Sibley

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2020, 02:10:39 PM »
I think it's very reasonable to ensure that the child is supervised around animals, and perhaps supervised in general when at your house. You don't really need to explain that's what you're doing either. If you won't be able to provide supervision, then "sorry, can't come over right now, maybe another day" works perfectly well.

Laura33

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2020, 02:26:39 PM »
Well, FWIW, I think the boundaries you posted upthread are entirely appropriate regardless of whether you decide to have the larger conversations with them or not.  Appropriate, consistent boundaries, lovingly enforced, make for happier kids.  And no matter how hard her parents are (or aren't) trying, you are entitled to keep all of the members of your family safe.

It sounds like this is the culmination of years of increasingly worrisome behavior, which suggests that there is some ineffective parenting going on (despite what I am sure are best intentions) and/or a lack of sufficient outside resources/expertise for guidance. I think what you can say is determined by how close your friendship is and how much you're willing to sacrifice some of that closeness if it isn't received well (which sounds like it may be a feature instead of a bug in this case).  But you can still approach it from the empathetic side, even if you want to send a firmer message -- i.e., "we're worried about little Julie; she's always been a handful, but we've never seen her hurt an animal before, and that seems very out of character.  Is she ok?  Are you ok?  Is there anything we can do to help?  Do you feel like you have the resources and support you need?"  Etc.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2020, 02:48:48 PM »
Please understand I'm not advocating being cruel here or blaming you or the other parents or even stating that this child is a "bad" child, but if I was you, I would use this incident to make this a total cut off for not having this child or family around your own ever again for your own family's safety and well-being.

Children can be abusers - both verbally, physically and sexually - of other children as well. Inappropriate behavior, a history of hurting animals, being "bossy" or otherwise controlling/directing play, coupled with other children not comfortable telling you what really happened? And then taken with the history/signs of other disturbing factors?

Throwing a delicate, small animal around like a toy to the point of injury is not something a normal 8 year old does. She did it multiple times, and this was intentional. There is no other way around this fact. She deliberately hurt a small animal - one that did not belong to her mind you - and she has done so in the recent past.

You stated you took the chance to move just a few houses down to get away from them living right next door in part to provide a bit more distance from them - specifically to keep the 8yon away from your 5 year old son. This was his gerbil? This sounds specifically that she is targeting your son.

Your story made my heart stop reading about it, and I know this might come across as hysteria or seeing things that aren't really there, but I would rather be labeled hysterical if it makes you pause and rethink trying to work with keeping them around going forward. You do not owe this family anything or need to keep trying because of social niceties. There are other children your children can play with or they can play by themselves. It won't stunt their growth to not have a neighborhood playmate.

The fact that you state this kid can be lovely... blood ran cold there too. Abusive, manipulative kids are the Eddie Haskells of the kid world. Charming AF as long as they get access to their victims. And then they can use abuse/threats, break or kill things their victims love to make sure to maintain control, or even use bribes and manipulation to maintain silence. And I would have a talk with each of your kids individually about keeping secrets and they absolutely will not get in trouble even if someone else told them not to tell.

If it was me, I would email the parent you are closest to and let them know that you feel that this last incident was so traumatizing for you and your family that you feel to you need to take a complete break from socializing/playdates for the foreseeable future. Explain you will be telling 8yon to please go home if she comes over, and your own kids will not be allowed to visit/play together. If 8yon shows up, I would tell her that you are very sorry but you all can't be friends any more because she hurt (and killed) your pet and tell her she needs to go home.   

And then ignore or say "so sorry but no" to any and all requests to get together going forward. You may want to tell them that it might be a good idea for 8yon to see a counselor or get professional help as she is so "spirited" and unable to make good decisions and you are very concerned about her interactions with others and her inappropriate behavior and that they may want to have a talk with her doctor about counseling.

And let your kids know - you are very sad about what happened to pet gerbil and that was the final straw - you don't trust 8yon in your house or around your kids any more. Tell them she is not allowed over and they are not allowed at her house, and if she tries to convince them to come over (say parents aren't home and 8yon is VERY persuasive) they are to call you to come get them if they are scared of saying no to her. You do not want them to play together especially if there are no adults around, and they are not to go off with her alone ever. You really are doing this to protect them and your pets. You love your kids, and want to make sure they are safe and should never have to hide things or be scared of telling things to you.

I honestly hope I'm wrong. This could just be a high energy inappropriate kid that really, really really needs a stronger parent/guidelines. But your family should not be forced to be the one that parents her and deal with the trauma of her grossly inappropriate behavior; her parents may use this incident to finally speak to their child's pediatrician about her behavior and get her medically evaluated to see if she's got something like ADD for instance but in the event she does have something darker going on, you need to protect your own family regardless. No matter what the reasons are, your family isn't enriched by having her as a part of it - so remove her.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 06:43:36 PM by Frankies Girl »

wonkette

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2020, 03:36:36 PM »
Wonkette -- could you elaborate on the taking clothes off being a red flag? I'm not sure what to google to learn more. 8yon's mother shrugs off this behavior, saying she doesn't want her kids to be paranoid about normal, natural, human bodies. "No big deal" seems to be her m.o, but this seems way off to me.

Roland of Gilead -- yes, I'm familiar with animal abuse by children being a precursor to other, worse, behaviors as adults... but I'm having trouble teasing out how much motivation matters. Based on what I know of 8yon, I don't see her behavior as maliciously intended... but does that matter in terms of her behavior being a red flag?

Maybe not, since I can see her being a kid who wants to throw cinderblocks off of overpasses - because it seems fun, because she has no appreciation of the consequences, because it's a cool experiment. I have misgivings about where her behavior is headed and what she might drag my son into at some point.

I'm freaking myself out now.

Sure. Again I do not know this child but your description coupled with the age of the child tells me they are deliberately and knowingly using their naked body for attention which is a sign of sexual abuse. Check out this link https://www.rainn.org/articles/warning-signs-young-children and this site is also good https://www.zeroabuseproject.org/victim-assistance/jwrc/keep-kids-safe/

This is not a toddler who wants to get out of a wet swimsuit RIGHT NOW but a child who goes to school, has language skills, knows the concept of privacy. You also mentioned 8yon had vivid fears of dying? Excessive worry or fearfullness is also a warning sign.

I don't say this to be scary, this kind of abuse is sadly very common. You can and should have empathy for 8yon and their family but it is not kind or caring to anybody to allow them to be around your children unsupervised. Have you heard the saying "hurt people hurt people"?

I was nodding alone with the post by Frankie's Girl. This is a serious situation, you are not overreacting, you must change the rules of engagement with this child even if it is socially uncomfortable.


Dee18

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2020, 04:05:22 PM »
This does sound like a very complicated situation since the 5 year olds are best friends.  Does the 8 year old bully your 5 year old along with her 5 year old sibling?  Why does your 8 year old like to play with this child? Is it because she pushes boundaries? Does things your child knows better than to do? What exactly happened with the gerbil?  I would try to get more information.  (or perhaps you already know all this) For example, when she threw the gerbil in the air the first time, did your five year old ask her to stop?  If so, what did she say in response to the request?  Or did the children at first think it was funny?  There are many possibilities here. If your five year old expressed distress and the 8 year old ignored it, I would be very concerned about having your 5 year old around the 8 year old.  I would not cut off the friendship immediately as some have suggested, but would try (so difficult with all that is going on) to only have supervised play times where you can see what the ongoing behavior is.  I would probably try to do that some in the next couple weeks, before discussing it further with the other parents.

snacky

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2020, 04:10:44 PM »
8 is old enough for you to look her in the eye and say that you are upset with her and can't trust her in your home any more/ with pets/ whatever the new boundary is. That's old enough for the emotional impact of seeing how her behaviour has affected you.

No internet stranger needs to armchair diagnose this kid, but hopefully the parents see the need to get her professionally diagnosed.

Your sphere of influence in this situation is your home and the relationship she has with your family. Exert control within that.

Freedom2016

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2020, 04:21:20 PM »
Neighbor dad texted us a few minutes ago to say he wishes they could do more than apologize.

Who knows what conversations they are having at home, but the fact that he's not saying to us that they recognize this is a big fucking deal and they're doing XYZ to address it on their end tells me they don't see this as a big fucking deal.





fuzzy math

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2020, 04:54:10 PM »
As you are thinking things over, I very much encourage you to try to view the situation with empathy.  This child sounds like a huge handful.  When most people see kids like that, they immediately assume it is the result of lax parenting -- and it's true that parenting that is either too lax or too authoritarian can aggravate the situation.  But many kids are just born different.  And when they act out, it is because something is wrong -- maybe they need more time running around, maybe the lights are too bright or the noises too loud, maybe they need more attention from their parents, maybe the seam on their sock is running the wrong way and irritating them with every step, maybe they're really upset about something else entirely and this is the only way they know how to express it.  The parents' job is to separate the kid from the behavior -- to establish and enforce clear, consistent boundaries, while figuring out what's going on with the kid so they can figure out how to fix the underlying problem. 


I think this advice undermines the OP's concern in this situation. A vast majority of deeply disturbed people start out as kids with high needs. However, not all high needs kids go on to be deeply disturbed people.

All 3 of my kids have been high needs / have sensory issues and I have stayed very firm with them. None of them have ever physically harmed animals or their friends. The times they've done things that were devious and have messed up other's lives we had some serious extended talks and privilege restrictions afterwards. The neighbor parents have shown a lack of concern that is likely a result of lax or disengaged parenting. The mom declined to check in on her child who seems to have a history of doing Very Bad Things.  If this isn't their wake up call moment there will be some very bad times in the future with that kid. How many other wake up call moments have happened that the OP just doesn't know about ?

OP I would definitely not allow that child in my home. I would consider allowing the kids to play supervised outside in the driveway or yard at some point in the future, but only if your kids want to. I would also give your kids enough time to speak on the situation, their grief over the pet (please tell me you've had it put to sleep now) and see if they even have any interest in playing with her.

IslandFiGirl

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2020, 10:11:59 PM »
At the very least you need a BREAK from these people.  You mentioned that you moved a few houses away to get some breathing room from them and that this type of behavior has gone on with this kid for the past 4 years.  I've been in your shoes, I have 3 kids who are now grown and everytime one of them played with a kid who had these types of issues, the situation NEVER improved.  It was exhausting monitoring my kid with the "difficult" friend and I always found myself telling that other kid what they should NOT be doing, and I HATED parenting someone else's kid!  The amount of peace I found when we cut off those types of friends was amazing.  Yes, I feel bad for the kids who have these issues, I love kids and hate to see anyone suffer, but I also recognized how miserable these types of kids made my kids.  Sorry, not sorry...don't want to be around them.  Just have an honest conversation with them, or even a text message.  Hey, neighbor, sorry, but I think the gerbil incident was the final straw for us, we are going to take some space from y'all for a while, I hope you are able to get help for your kid. 

Freedomin5

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2020, 10:43:34 PM »
No internet stranger needs to armchair diagnose this kid, but hopefully the parents see the need to get her professionally diagnosed.

Agree. As friends, I’d gently ask whether the parents have considered an assessment. My job involves referring people out for testing, and while there are some behaviors that may point to sociopathic tendencies, there are also many signs that point to possible ADHD, or at least poor executive functioning skills. We also know that research shows there is a correlation between age of parents and developmental disorders. From what you’ve described, something more than “just being an active kid” is going on.

At eight years old, she needs help, and the sooner the better.

Laura33

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2020, 07:52:40 AM »
As you are thinking things over, I very much encourage you to try to view the situation with empathy.  This child sounds like a huge handful.  When most people see kids like that, they immediately assume it is the result of lax parenting -- and it's true that parenting that is either too lax or too authoritarian can aggravate the situation.  But many kids are just born different.  And when they act out, it is because something is wrong -- maybe they need more time running around, maybe the lights are too bright or the noises too loud, maybe they need more attention from their parents, maybe the seam on their sock is running the wrong way and irritating them with every step, maybe they're really upset about something else entirely and this is the only way they know how to express it.  The parents' job is to separate the kid from the behavior -- to establish and enforce clear, consistent boundaries, while figuring out what's going on with the kid so they can figure out how to fix the underlying problem. 


I think this advice undermines the OP's concern in this situation. A vast majority of deeply disturbed people start out as kids with high needs. However, not all high needs kids go on to be deeply disturbed people.

All 3 of my kids have been high needs / have sensory issues and I have stayed very firm with them. None of them have ever physically harmed animals or their friends. The times they've done things that were devious and have messed up other's lives we had some serious extended talks and privilege restrictions afterwards. The neighbor parents have shown a lack of concern that is likely a result of lax or disengaged parenting. The mom declined to check in on her child who seems to have a history of doing Very Bad Things.  If this isn't their wake up call moment there will be some very bad times in the future with that kid. How many other wake up call moments have happened that the OP just doesn't know about ?

OP I would definitely not allow that child in my home. I would consider allowing the kids to play supervised outside in the driveway or yard at some point in the future, but only if your kids want to. I would also give your kids enough time to speak on the situation, their grief over the pet (please tell me you've had it put to sleep now) and see if they even have any interest in playing with her.

So FWIW, my comment was not to excuse the behavior or suggest that the OP get over it; in fact, I started by noting that the concerns were absolutely valid and OP had every right to be upset.  I think we all agree that the behavior is not at all normal, that there is something very wrong here, and that the OP has every right to cut off contact if that is needed to protect kids/pets.

But the original question was about whether/how to say something to try to get the parents to see that there is a pattern here that needs outside help -- to engage and persuade, not cut off.  And if you are going to actually try to persuade the parents to do something, it is always more effective if you can first try to think through the situation from their point of view and understand some of the struggles they are probably dealing with.  Even -- especially! -- when you think the way they are dealing with it is completely wrong and ineffective.  No one changes in response to an attack; they just double down because they feel they have to defend themselves.

But again:  OP, you have every right to just decide that this is the last straw and cut them off, at least until they get her help.  And I'm sorry if anything I said led you to feel undermined or like I was belittling your frustration/anger/hurt.

Freedom2016

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2020, 03:26:15 PM »
Thanks for the added comments, all. This is all weighing heavily on us.

The gerbil has been put to sleep.

The neighbor asked how much our vet bill was, then texted "if we feel we're more than 50% responsible, we'll pay more. We're not sure if we're more responsible than that. 8yon has offered to buy you a new gerbil."

This makes me think they may be less open to a conversation than I had hoped. I can't conceive how she thinks there is shared responsibility for our pet's death.


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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2020, 03:36:03 PM »
Seriously?! This sounds like your “friends” are minimizing their child’s behaviors. I would serious consider whether parents like these and children like these are a good influence for my child. Even if you ban them from your house and allow your child to continue being friends with them and going to their house for play dates, I question their judgment as adults. Their child is liable to go a bit too far and accidentally do something to harm your child (not on purpose, just because they didn’t think of the consequences), and now you know the parents are liable to blame you for your child getting hurt by their child’s reckless behaviors.

You had said before that you were uncomfortable with leaving this child unattended with your child. Trust your gut. Don’t throw your kid to the wolves and put them at risk of being seriously injured in an effort to be polite, be nice, avoid offending a neighbor, or to preserve your friendship with the adults.

And yes, this is a change from my gentler response above. The kid still needs help, but the first priority is to ensure the safety of your own children. If the neighbors are not open to discussion and getting help for their child, there is little that you can do. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 03:39:13 PM by Freedomin5 »

SimpleCycle

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2020, 04:57:18 PM »
First, I am so sorry this happened to your family and your pet.

I think you need some time and space before you can be clear-headed about drawing appropriate boundaries with this family.  You are emotional, they are emotional, and I think everyone probably needs to calm down before any of this can be decided and discussed rationally.  I would text back that you feel pretty strongly their child is 100% responsible, but that you all need some time and space to heal and you will discuss it further when you are ready.

Your first priority by a huge margin needs to be the physical and emotional safety of your children.  This child murdered your five year old's pet, possibly with intent.  You need to step in and provide your children with the very clear understanding that what happened was not okay, and that you will do everything you can to protect them from being hurt more.  Also listen to their feelings and probe gently for anything they might want to say about 8yon.  It's quite possible your children will not want to see 8yon anymore.  Tell them you and your spouse are thinking hard about how to handle this, and that you're not sure when they'll be able to play with the neighbor children again.

Next, I would decide on appropriate boundaries.  I personally would want no contact with 8yon, and also would not be comfortable leaving my children in the care of her parents.  I might continue to allow playdates with the 5yon at your house only, if you think you can manage to thread that needle.

Only then I would deal with the parents of 8yon.  I would take Laura's advice on approaching this subject with compassion, but absolutely not downplay the seriousness of her behavior.  I would say something along the lines of "We are concerned about 8yon's behavior and her ability to be safe around our children and pets.  She has deeply hurt our children and killed our pet, and so our new boundaries are X and Y.  From our perspective, this behavior is concerning enough to warrant further evaluation and intervention, and we hope you'll consider getting her evaluated.  I can tell you are worn out dealing with her difficult behavior, and getting her help will hopefully reduce some of the stress on your family too."

And then take it from there.  Understand there is a good chance they will not take you seriously and will be mad you are "punishing" their daughter by drawing boundaries to keep your children safe.  There is a good chance they cannot see their own child's behavior objectively, or for whatever reason are in denial about her behavior.  But you can't fix it for them, you can only hope to communicate in a way that leads them to seeing they need help.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2020, 04:58:46 PM »
Also, sorry for the double post, but HARD NO to 8yon buying you another gerbil.  This was an animal's life, and it is not replaced or made right by spending $10 at a pet store.

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2020, 05:42:40 PM »
Anecdotally - I know of the following children killing animals stories in my circle:

1 - Smashing many many frogs
2 - Fish baseball
3 - Dead bunny (also dropped / thrown)
4 - Killed the cat
5 - Kill baby chicken with rock
6 - Shoot birds with BB gun
7 - also 1 'put big rocks in the street' case w/ car accidents

Of the 7 only #4 turned out to be a psychopath murderer as an adult & tortured animals as a teen. Everyone else seems well adjusted.

Seems to me that your family values & expectations of your children do not match your friends values & expectations. I also vote for no pets around the neighbor kids at a minimum. Could always enroll your kids in classes (sports / chess / art / music / etc.) so they are always 'too busy' - plus they will find new friends that are achieving things. Might be a high expense in terms of money and time for a year or so, but I am sure the investment would be worthwhile.

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2020, 10:26:11 PM »
Cut them off.  Ban them from your property.  When she pushes one of your kids in front a moving car, you will regret not doing so.  Good luck.

Laura33

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2020, 06:58:43 AM »
The neighbor asked how much our vet bill was, then texted "if we feel we're more than 50% responsible, we'll pay more. We're not sure if we're more responsible than that. 8yon has offered to buy you a new gerbil."

I have changed my mind.  Fuck 'em.  That is an unbelievably inappropriate response that tells you exactly where their values are.  Sounds like the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

I would be very, very tempted to send a text back saying something like "Your daughter killed our pet.  If you can't understand that the money is the least of our concerns, then I don't think we have much more to discuss."

And I am sorry you had to put the little guy to sleep.

Freedom2016

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2020, 07:05:44 AM »
We are taking time and space, for sure... we had already planned on a weekend away at my in-laws' lake house, so we have a few days where there's no reason to be in touch or interact.

Is there any possibility I am overreacting? When we got the text that they felt 50% responsible, I asked my kids again what happened, and teased out a couple of more details:

My 5yo daughter, who owned this gerbil, was holding him before 8yon got him. 5yo tells me that she was cupping him in her hands, then tossing him about 3 or 4 inches in the air and catching him in her hands. Based on this description, it doesn't sound like gerbil would have been injured by this behavior, though it's obviously not a great idea. I had previously thought she was doing this after 8yon had been throwing him, but it was beforehand, and could have given 8yon the idea in the first place.

8yon, after that, got the gerbil and started tossing him in the air, letting him fall to the ground (as described earlier), and was saying "oh, you're so cute!" over and over as she did it. My kids aren't sure how many times she did it; our 8yo son thinks maybe 5 times but isn't sure.

My two kids did not stop her from this behavior.

Do these details change anything?
 
NOTE: posted before seeing latest Laura33 response.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 07:23:14 AM by Freedom2016 »

Freedomin5

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2020, 07:49:07 AM »
No, the details don’t change the fact that 8yon lacks empathy to realize that a gerbil hitting the ground over and over again is NOT CUTE or amusing. Even your five year old realized that gerbils needed to be cupped gently and only thrown up in the air gently, and Caught Gently, not whacked repeatedly into the ground.

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2020, 08:12:56 AM »
You do not ever make kids responsible for the behaviour of another kid.  Ever.  They don't have the social ability or authority that adults do.

Your added description of what was done makes it pretty clear to me that the neighbour child knew exactly what she was doing and was enjoying it while she did it.  I suspect that others commenting here may well be right and that she either has been or is still being abused.

I don't see any good coming out of your children being further exposed to this child's behaviour and the potential for physical or psychological harm to them is real.  The parents are either complicit or ineffective, but whichever it is means that things aren't going to get better any time soon.  Please listen to the instincts that made you move away from the closer situation for the sake of your children: you now have all the information you need to take that separation another step forward.

Freedom2016

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2020, 08:47:43 AM »
For anyone who is curious, here is the thread I started 3 years ago about 8yon:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mini-money-mustaches/neighbor's-dd-is-a-challenge/msg1591340/#msg1591340


MayDay

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2020, 05:41:51 AM »
Honestly I do think the details muddy things a bit. I think many kids that age can't really differentiate the line between throwing up in the air a few inchess and something that will hurt the gerbil.. especially a kid who clearly lacks executive functioning skills. 8yon definitely seems like a kid who is not developmentally capable of reasoning out that a short throw is ok but a higher throw is not.

You can't be mad that she isn't developmentally capable. You can supervise her more (clearly needed) and you can decide her parents aren't treating this seriously enough on their end. And you can absolutely be mad at the kid but it isn't going to help her become more capable.

We had a similar situation with our chickens. You drop a chicken from waist height (and I do!) and it flies to the ground. For a child this is an exciting and fun thing, all that flapping. A child took the chicken and from waist height, instead of dropping it they threw it up in the air. There was much flapping and joy had by all the watching children. I was right three so I corrected the behavior and explained that the chicken could easily flap down 3 feet but not ten- broken legs are likely. Luckily I was there but if I wasn't I think there's a good chance the chicken flapping experiment would have been repeated many times and not ended well :(.

Long story short I think it's easy to say "an 8 year old should know better! Psychopath!". But the reality is more nuanced. Regardless you're allowed to be angry and not want to socialize with this family. But I do think some of the blame should be assigned to "kids don't think things through", and some should be assigned to "you knew this kid needed more supervision based on her past behavior".

I'll also add that my own kids is autistic. We blame ourselves when we set him up for failure. Putting a kid in a situation that we (should have) known they can't handle, we can't get mad at him. It's our job to not put him in a situation where he will fail (or be right there to correct course). That mindset helps us retain our empathy and affection for him and not be constantly mad that he is _______ (fill in the blank). Perhaps you can apply that reasoning to the neighbor girl if you want to maintain the relationship.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 05:45:13 AM by MayDay »

ditheca

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2020, 12:51:19 AM »
Cut them off.  Ban them from your property.  When she pushes one of your kids in front a moving car, you will regret not doing so.  Good luck.

One of our neighbors kids did that to my disabled son. Luckily, he wasn't injured. They were about 10 years old at the time.

Neither of the bully's parents understood why I thought it was a big deal... "He didn't actually get hurt! No harm, no foul."

Freedom2016

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2020, 04:20:02 PM »
I talked to a clinical psychologist friend of mine who read this thread. She laughed that I went to MMM boards for input on non-financial stuff (I guess I've talked about this forum before?) and she was impressed with the thoughtfulness shown in the replies here.

She agreed with the overall sentiment that we're not overreacting and that the behavior with the gerbil does warrant attention because it seems to indicate something is going on. She said it could be any number of things, though after I shared more family background with her than I have shared here, she said she was less concerned that it was coming from a sexual abuse / psychopathy direction, and didn't feel the circumstances necessarily scream "cut them off right now!"

But she definitely said new boundaries are called for, and that how the parents react to the conversation we have with them about our new boundaries will tell us a lot, and help us calibrate the decisions we're making. She also said it's possible they will cut *us* off after we tell them these new boundaries.

So we decided that our new boundary was that any play date involving 8yon must have DH or me present and supervising - our house, their house, anywhere else. By itself that will likely cut down on play dates because we're simply not available as often as the kids want play dates. But we also think that gives us the ability to nip behaviors in the bud, end play dates that are going badly, etc. It's OK with us for the 5 year olds to play together at their house, but if 8yon is home at the time, one of us will be there.

So we talked to them today.

The mother was far more conciliatory than I expected, and handed us a check for the whole vet bill. She agreed that 8yon was responsible for the gerbil's death; she has been trying to talk to her about taking responsibility over the last several days; 8yon is reportedly very upset and sad about what happened and started (though didn't finish) writing our kids a letter about it. I shared a thumbnail of my conversation with clinical psychologist friend: "I contacted her to help me sort out my own reactions and talk me down if I was overreacting... she said this behavior was worth looking into because it's not normal expected behavior for an 8 year old... we feel like we would be remiss, and not good friends to you if we didn't pass that along. Maybe start with her pediatrician?" The mom was surprisingly open to that, said she would call tomorrow.

The dad was pretty defensive when we said what our boundaries were, but he seemed to calm down as we kept talking and eventually said he sees that there's a disconnect with 8yon between actions and consequences.

The conversation was awkward as hell and it was tempting to back down when they took it better than I thought...(I hate conflict)... but I was proud of us for holding the line and being clear that these are our new rules going forward.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 04:22:20 PM by Freedom2016 »

Sibley

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2020, 05:04:53 PM »
Sounds like a good sign. And hopefully, the kid will get whatever help is appropriate for whatever is going on.

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2020, 05:28:48 PM »
There are worse tragedies than a dead gerbil. Most logical scenario would be that the child was jealous of your child for having a gerbil and did this on purpose. Be glad it was not a cat,or worse, a dog. I would blacklist these people for a while.

Laura33

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2020, 07:19:32 AM »
Nicely done!

ericrugiero

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2020, 07:37:38 AM »
So we decided that our new boundary was that any play date involving 8yon must have DH or me present and supervising - our house, their house, anywhere else. By itself that will likely cut down on play dates because we're simply not available as often as the kids want play dates. But we also think that gives us the ability to nip behaviors in the bud, end play dates that are going badly, etc. It's OK with us for the 5 year olds to play together at their house, but if 8yon is home at the time, one of us will be there.

This is exactly what I was going to suggest and how I would have handled it in your shoes.  It protects your kids and sends the message that the behavior is a big deal without totally cutting all ties. 

We have a niece (8 years old) who displays lack of control, lack of empathy and lack of understanding consequences.  We think it's likely she has Asperger's syndrome.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear a story like this about her.  We try to supervise our kids around her more closely than their other friends.  It's a little better for us because all our boys are her age or older as well as bigger, stronger and more coordinated so she can't physically bully them and our boys are pretty good about just walking away.  It's really a bigger deal for her younger sisters (she is the oldest of 4).  This has been a big challenge for her parents because she takes so much of their parenting time and energy that they don't do as good a job with the younger ones as they otherwise would.  The younger ones also have a negative example to follow in their older sister.   

Cpa Cat

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2020, 08:39:13 AM »
You've learned something about your own children: Although your own children may be mature enough not to abuse your pets, they are not mature enough to understand how to stop another child from harming a pet. You now know that they don't know how to stop unwanted/harmful behavior and won't immediately recognize the signs of this behavior until it's too late. Or if they do recognize it, they don't understand how to stop it.

This neighbor child did not abuse the gerbil in a vacuum. Take this opportunity to talk to your kids and help them understand how to respond to difficult situations.

This goes beyond harming animals. You need to help your kids with strategies to recognize and stop unwanted behavior.

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2020, 08:30:57 AM »
I just want to applaud you for having such a tough but crucial conversation. It's one thing for people on the internet to say "Cut them off!" or "Tell them XYZ!", but its another thing to actually *have* a fraught, tense conversation with a family that you love in many ways, live near, and have overlapping lives/history with. 

I am part-way through reading Malcolm Gladwell's "Talking to Strangers" book, and in it he discusses why the sexual abuse scandals of Larry Nassar and Jerry Sandusky went on so long, and why other adults were so unsure of their own instincts when faced with vague suspicions that these men were abusing children. Malcolm discusses Timothy Levine's "truth default theory" as part of why we as humans are so famously bad at acting on evidence of something being amiss in a situation. It often takes people countless experiences and multiple giant red flaming flags to validate their own gut feelings and suspicions that something is untoward. We try to talk ourselves out of our gut feelings, and go with what seems like the more likely explanation, rather than the rare but more serious issue. IE, "Maybe she didn't really realize the gerbil was hurt - because the alternate explanation is that she's terribly troubled and most 8yo's aren't and besides she was lovely the other day when....."
 
I'm *not* using this example to say that 8yon is inherently a damaged child who will or is becoming a perpetrator,  but the point of my connection is to say that its understandable that we doubt ourselves and ask questions like, "Well... maybe she got the idea from my 5yo who was gently tossing the gerbil within her hands first" or "Am I overreacting?" etc.  But using your own years of previous experiences and your previous post as evidence, its clear that something has been "off" about this child, or at least this child's dynamic with your children, for years. Reading Gladwell's book has given me a bit more understanding at why we are so bad at calculating risk and deception. So bravo for listening to yourself, and enacting some very difficult boundaries. That must have been so awkward to convey to the other parents. 

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2020, 11:19:11 AM »
Well done.  I have enjoyed reading the responses here.  I find this to be so tricky on so many levels.  I am glad that the parents were open to checking with the pediatrician.

It's good that the 8 yo is upset.  My younger son is 7 (almost 8), and he HATES being corrected when he misbehaves in any way.  He doesn't want to talk to us, or even be near us.  But I think this is good.  We don't back down and he KNOWS he has done something wrong and it is HARD for him to accept that and make change.

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2020, 09:59:09 PM »
Thank you all for the nice follow-up comments. NonprofitER your comments particularly resonate, as I realized through this experience that I had been downplaying or ignoring my gut instincts. No more!

We have since hosted a successful play date with attentive adult supervision (me) and absolutely no gerbil contact. 

As another follow-up, the mom told me today that the pediatrician affirmed that that behavior "was not okay" and mentioned that it had to do with (or could have to do with) a lack of empathy. This was apparently a surprise for the mom, who thought it was all impulse-control related, though she thought the empathy piece might relate to a variety of things going on with 8yon. (I was not surprised to hear this.) Pediatrician also said this kind of behavior is associated with literally playing with fire / (accidentally) starting fires (!!!).

So I am relieved that the parents are following up, that they are newly alert to the seriousness of 8yon's behavior, and that they are keeping us informed.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 10:16:07 PM by Freedom2016 »

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Re: Neighbor child gravely injured (and may have killed) our gerbil
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2020, 09:25:12 PM »
I'm super impressed you were able to have the conversation with the parents.  I know how awkward and difficult that can be.  Not a lot of people have the confidence to do that, so good on you.

I've had a few situations similar to what you describe with my 3 kids.  After a few instances, I finally realized that I am allowed to decide that a situation doesn't work for me and if I don't like it, I can remove myself from it and that is OK and I also do NOT have to feel any guilt.  I hope that you also know that.  You don't have to feel like you have to fix anyone, you aren't responsible for entertaining their daughter.  I remember the incredible peace I finally felt when I told my daughter that her drama queen/disturbed friend was no longer allowed at our house and she couldn't go to hers anymore.  The stress dissipated immediately and I saw an immediate positive effect on my daughter.  Sometimes walking away from a situation is the right thing to do too.  Just throwing that out there as an option.  Good luck moving forward.