My 3.5 yr old daughter is mean to her peers

[NextTime]

I have a 3.5 year old daughter that has been having serious issues, for awhile now, at her day care because she is mean to the other kids (her age and younger). When we talk to her about it, she has no problem admitting she's mean to them. When we ask her why, she sometimes says "well I just want to be mean", but more often now she is saying because she doesn't want to play with them and just wants to play by herself.

For some background, she is very advanced verbally. She speaks more like a 6 year-old than a 3 year-old. She is also overly sweet most of the time, snuggling with us, telling us how much she loves us, just saying really nice things. For example, the other day while we were eating dinner, she looked across the table at me, smiled, and said, "Daddy, look at how handsome you are."  I have no idea where she would even have heard that before. But she says really nice things to everyone in the family all the time. You may say maybe she's just being manipulative, but she's not asking for anything in return, so that doesn't really explain it. You'd think she was 6 or 7 if you heard her talking. She definitely does have a temper though, and she is extremely strong willed. We went through an exhausting period of tantrums that thankfully are fewer and far between now.

I have noticed that, except for her 4 year-old cousin, she doesn't really like playing with the kids her age. When my 8 year-old's friends are over (frequently), she loves hanging out around, not necessarily with, them. He and his friends are very good about letting her hang around as long as she doesn't try and mess things up. But my wife has tried to put her in play dates with the 3 year old neighbor, and she is just not interested in playing with her.

I'm wondering, or maybe just hoping, that she just isn't in to playing with her peers right now because she's so far ahead of them verbally and things will change when they catch up in the next year or two. But what I'm concerned about is why she's so damn mean to them. The day care provider says she is constantly yelling at them to leave her alone. She will yell at them to get out of her seat (she doesn't have a seat) or give her back her toy (she wasn't playing with it. I guess it's just basic bullying behavior.

Is this just common behavior for an advanced 3 year-old, and her mother and I are just being overly anxious? We are changing her day care provider so that she is in a more educational environment, but we can't get her into that school until August. Any similar experiences, tips, ideas etc?

Sorry for the rambling, I'm just looking for some answers or a direction to move in. She is an awesome little girl in so many ways, I just don't know where this meanness is coming from.

[Laura33]

I suspect you are right about the cause.

I also suspect that her advanced verbal abilities may have led you and everyone else to assume that advanced behavior/emotions come right along with it.  The reality is that physically and emotionally, she's still 3.5  She is mean because she is bored and frustrated and doesn't want to do what people are asking her to do.  And the only way she knows to express that frustration is to lash out at the people who are boring and frustrating her. 

My DD was very difficult at that age, btw, for any number of reasons (partly because her school put her ahead academically, but then expected her to be able to behave as well as the older kids.  Big crash and burn there).  And I can tell you that the only way that she will modify her behavior is if she clearly understands that it matters to you -- that she is rewarded for doing it well, and there are consequences for being mean to people.

I would start it with a conversation that empathizes with her frustration.  Then tell her that it is NOT ok to be mean to other people just because you don't like what they're doing -- that's not what big girls do, and you know she is a big girl, and so she needs to learn to do better.  And then brainstorm with her ideas for what she can say and do -- go talk to the teacher, just say "no" and walk away, or whatever.*  Then you can lay out the plan:  when you get a report that she was mean at school, she loses XYZ at home (screen time?  some other privilege?).  OTOH, when she has a day where she isn't mean, she gets ABC (some other minor privilege).  And when she goes a whole week, you guys will all go out for ice cream!  Or whatever enticement would work in your family (ice cream is the be-all, end-all in mine).

It's a fine line.  You don't want to make it into a big deal -- I made too much of it, and my DD started to get serious anxiety and completely melted down whenever she got in trouble at school.  And you also need to expect her to fail, because she's still not even 4 yet, and some people go their whole adult lives without learning those skills!  So the privileges and consequences need to be fairly minor at this point.  But she does need to know that you expect her to get better at this, and that you believe she can learn better things to do, because that's the kind of thing kids learn as they get bigger.

You can also praise her when she says nice things at home, and then tie that to the kids at school.  E.g., "wow, that's a very nice thing to say, and that makes me very happy to hear you say that.  I wonder how Jennie from school would feel if you said something that nice to her?"  I.e., "catch her doing something right," and help her tie her words to its effect on other people. 

Of course, if you guys have issues with your temper and snap when you get angry/frustrated, well, you can't really expect her to do better than you.

*Also talk to the teacher to (a) let them know you are doing this plan so they're not surprised when your DD comes up to them and (b) get ideas for specific things your DD can do when she starts to lose it in class.  A good teacher will figure out how to spot and defuse that kind of situation and give the kid some kind of "out" before the kid blows her top.

[ixtap]

Just from the headline I was going to ask if it was possible she just finds her peers boring and might she be better off being with folks more on her level, rather than her age. Let's face it, it is at best annoying and at worst depressing to be around "stupid" people all day. We have this obsession with keeping kids with their age group, but it can do them wonders to be with their actual peers, rather than just kids their age.

August is a long time away. Is there a more advanced age group at her current daycare? State requirements can make this difficult to manage, if the student:teacher ratio changes at a certain age. Is there a challenging activity she can do alone when she gets frustrated like this? (ie, go to her cubby and get a puzzle) Is she reading? (yes, it is early, no it is not unheard of). Can you introduce a challenging activity at home for her to look forward to, like music lessons?

[better late]

I wanted to mention that we brought our daughter to a child psychologist at 5 for issues with socialization. I kind of apologized to the therapist when I spoke to her the first time about calling in a professional for such a young child and she kind of cut me off and said oh no the younger the child the easier to effect change. One of the best decisions we made in the early years.

[Freedomin5]

What Laura said, and you also need to make sure your 8 year old and his friends are not saying “mean words” to her and to each other, especially if she happens to mess things up.

[NextTime]

Thank you for the responses.

What Laura said, and you also need to make sure your 8 year old and his friends are not saying “mean words” to her and to each other, especially if she happens to mess things up.

While I'm obviously not there with them all the time, I've never heard his friends say anything mean to her. His best friends are a set of twins, and they are really good with her. My son is also really good with her. They are siblings, and 5 years apart, so obviously they have sibling spats, but for the most part they are really good together. She really enjoys getting under his skin.

Just from the headline I was going to ask if it was possible she just finds her peers boring and might she be better off being with folks more on her level, rather than her age. Let's face it, it is at best annoying and at worst depressing to be around "stupid" people all day. We have this obsession with keeping kids with their age group, but it can do them wonders to be with their actual peers, rather than just kids their age.

August is a long time away. Is there a more advanced age group at her current daycare? State requirements can make this difficult to manage, if the student:teacher ratio changes at a certain age. Is there a challenging activity she can do alone when she gets frustrated like this? (ie, go to her cubby and get a puzzle) Is she reading? (yes, it is early, no it is not unheard of). Can you introduce a challenging activity at home for her to look forward to, like music lessons?

Unfortunately, I think we really dropped the ball this year by leaving her in the at home daycare, rather than getting her into a more education based (pre k) daycare. I'm not sure there are openings anywhere currently but we are going to start looking for something to get her through until August. We've also discussed gymnastics or dance class. Maybe piano lessons would be good for her. I'd figured she was too young at this time, but maybe you are right.

I suspect you are right about the cause.

I also suspect that her advanced verbal abilities may have led you and everyone else to assume that advanced behavior/emotions come right along with it.  The reality is that physically and emotionally, she's still 3.5  She is mean because she is bored and frustrated and doesn't want to do what people are asking her to do.  And the only way she knows to express that frustration is to lash out at the people who are boring and frustrating her. 

My DD was very difficult at that age, btw, for any number of reasons (partly because her school put her ahead academically, but then expected her to be able to behave as well as the older kids.  Big crash and burn there).  And I can tell you that the only way that she will modify her behavior is if she clearly understands that it matters to you -- that she is rewarded for doing it well, and there are consequences for being mean to people.

I would start it with a conversation that empathizes with her frustration.  Then tell her that it is NOT ok to be mean to other people just because you don't like what they're doing -- that's not what big girls do, and you know she is a big girl, and so she needs to learn to do better.  And then brainstorm with her ideas for what she can say and do -- go talk to the teacher, just say "no" and walk away, or whatever.*  Then you can lay out the plan:  when you get a report that she was mean at school, she loses XYZ at home (screen time?  some other privilege?).  OTOH, when she has a day where she isn't mean, she gets ABC (some other minor privilege).  And when she goes a whole week, you guys will all go out for ice cream!  Or whatever enticement would work in your family (ice cream is the be-all, end-all in mine).

It's a fine line.  You don't want to make it into a big deal -- I made too much of it, and my DD started to get serious anxiety and completely melted down whenever she got in trouble at school.  And you also need to expect her to fail, because she's still not even 4 yet, and some people go their whole adult lives without learning those skills!  So the privileges and consequences need to be fairly minor at this point.  But she does need to know that you expect her to get better at this, and that you believe she can learn better things to do, because that's the kind of thing kids learn as they get bigger.

You can also praise her when she says nice things at home, and then tie that to the kids at school.  E.g., "wow, that's a very nice thing to say, and that makes me very happy to hear you say that.  I wonder how Jennie from school would feel if you said something that nice to her?"  I.e., "catch her doing something right," and help her tie her words to its effect on other people. 

Of course, if you guys have issues with your temper and snap when you get angry/frustrated, well, you can't really expect her to do better than you.

*Also talk to the teacher to (a) let them know you are doing this plan so they're not surprised when your DD comes up to them and (b) get ideas for specific things your DD can do when she starts to lose it in class.  A good teacher will figure out how to spot and defuse that kind of situation and give the kid some kind of "out" before the kid blows her top.

Awhile back my wife instituted positive reinforcement system with stickers. She could earn 3 stickers per day, and she would lose one for each timeout received. If she earned all 3 she would get a Dum Dum when she got home. She was actually starting to do much better until a new girl showed up a couple of weeks ago. Since then she's been terrible. I'm not sure the day care provider does a lot of teaching. She just sticks her in timeout.

Both my wife and I do have tempers and I know this is definitely part of the problem. We work very hard to keep calm, but we definitely get frustrated and lose it every once in awhile. I grew up with 2 parents that yelled, a lot, and I never wanted it to be that way with my kids. And my wife has that "Latina temper".  It's something both of us definitely have to work on.

[shelivesthedream]

You might have a look at the book "How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen". It's aimed at parents of children from 2-7 and with a very articulate little girl who also has a strong will it sounds like it might be right up your street. The philosophy is generally "let's figure out a good solution to this problem together"...plus some sneaky tips for making it seem like the child has more choice about what's going on than they actually do. It's not sappy, but poses the parent as a facilitator rather than dictator when it comes to discipline/punishment decisions.

[NextTime]

I will check it out.  Thank you.