Author Topic: MMM Course for Teenagers  (Read 8113 times)

tomsang

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MMM Course for Teenagers
« on: April 04, 2015, 03:28:04 PM »
We have four teenagers that we have exposed to informal discussions about money, budgets, costs of items, investments, compound interest, and many other life lessons.  I have encouraged them to read MMM with very limited success, so I started to think that maybe I needed to make it worth their time.  Some of the topics include:

1) Write an essay on the Shockingly Simple Math.
2) Compound interest
3) Investing
4) Various articles or blog posts that are meaningful to learn as teenager on the verge of becoming young adults.
5) Value of Education
6) How to be a valued employee and how to ask for a raise.
x) How to set up a Roth IRA at Vanguard.

With the idea that they could earn about $10+ an hour researching and writing a small essay or multiple choice quiz or something to indicate that they actually understand the concept.  When they finish the various steps they may have a bank of $250 to $1,000.  The last step would be on how to set up a Roth IRA.  They will then have the opportunity to set up the account and double their money or take the cash or part cash/part investment.  It would need to be set up so it is not them just Googling the answer, but truly understanding the concept.  I want it to be fun but meaningful.

Thoughts pros/cons?
What are the top posts, concepts or life lessons would you include in the course?
Any other words of wisdom?

Cathy

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2015, 04:04:55 PM »
Is there going to be a lecture on the financial consequences of prepaying a 3.25% mortgage with a fixed-rate 30 year term?

tomsang

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2015, 05:09:24 PM »
Is there going to be a lecture on the financial consequences of prepaying a 3.25% mortgage with a fixed-rate 30 year term?

Of course!!!!

MDM

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2015, 05:24:17 PM »
With the idea that they could earn about $10+ an hour researching and writing a small essay or multiple choice quiz or something to indicate that they actually understand the concept.  When they finish the various steps they may have a bank of $250 to $1,000.  The last step would be on how to set up a Roth IRA.  They will then have the opportunity to set up the account and double their money or take the cash or part cash/part investment.  It would need to be set up so it is not them just Googling the answer, but truly understanding the concept.  I want it to be fun but meaningful.

Interested in hearing more about "earn" - as in, do you think this would count as "earned income" for Roth IRA purposes and if so, how?

It would be great if it would but it's not clear....

tomsang

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2015, 05:36:52 PM »
With the idea that they could earn about $10+ an hour researching and writing a small essay or multiple choice quiz or something to indicate that they actually understand the concept.  When they finish the various steps they may have a bank of $250 to $1,000.  The last step would be on how to set up a Roth IRA.  They will then have the opportunity to set up the account and double their money or take the cash or part cash/part investment.  It would need to be set up so it is not them just Googling the answer, but truly understanding the concept.  I want it to be fun but meaningful.

Interested in hearing more about "earn" - as in, do you think this would count as "earned income" for Roth IRA purposes and if so, how?

It would be great if it would but it's not clear....

Thanks for the clarification. We have one on the verge of two children who have outside jobs. We also have businesses that we could put them on payroll, but we prefer that their first job is working for someone else. So to be clear, replace IRA with an investment accountant.

Secretly Saving

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2015, 08:25:49 AM »
Two topics that come to mind that I would add are:

- the art of negotiation when being offered a job.  (understanding all benefits besides just the base salary)
- understanding credit cards (the good, the bad, and the ugly)


math-ya

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2015, 08:30:15 AM »
I would talk to them about plans after high school. Everyone thinks 4 year colleges are the only way to go. But trade schools are often the better route.

Joel

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2015, 10:34:04 AM »
Start with them being required to get a job and paying for some of their expenses.

tomsang

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 09:48:14 AM »
Good topics and discussion items Joel and math-ya.  They all have the expectation of having a job when they turn 16 and the younger ones do do dog walking, babysitting and other miscellaneous businesses to make money.  It is crazy when a 13 year old can make $100 after expenses in 4 hours selling lemonade.  We have to limit the number of times to keep away from the Health Board calling it a businesses and fining them for not having a license.

I threw in a poo funny in my response on accident so I left it there for my amusement...

Pooja Sharma

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 05:12:15 AM »
It is extremely interesting way to teach teens about MMM and also it will encourage them to set up Roth IRA and they might end up ato be a master in "Double the Money"!

Nice Topic Joel and Math-ya too

shelivesthedream

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2015, 01:59:08 AM »
One of the things that made the biggest impact on me as a term was a book that explained how much it cost to live. I think the example was someone earning full time minimum wage and they set out what you could expect to spend on rent for a few different kinds of flat/living arrangement, food, car expenses... The biggest shock for me was actually tax! The point the book wanted to make, I think, was that just living is expensive - but what I got out of it was that you can make lifestyle choices which affect your expenses, like pick a cheaper flat and have more food money or buy cheaper food and have a nicer flat... or pick the cheapest option of both and save the money!

ender

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 06:48:21 AM »
Start with them being required to get a job and paying for some of their expenses.

+1.

Money had minimal meaning to me until I started trading lots of my time for small amounts of it. Things suddenly got a lot more real and tangible then.

GatewayTwo

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2015, 06:52:43 AM »
I've been thinking about this for my own kids.  One thing I was thinking is running a "game" (in my head it's called "The American Dream Game").

Basically pick a random 40 window on one of the major stock indices.  let them pick a "profession" and then give them a salary and student loans to go with it.  Each day is 1 year.  let them make choices at some intervals (do you want Cable TV?  How about internet?  How about a house?  Look at all this money!  Can i trick you into buying something useless (aka simulating advertising).)  Let them make spending and saving decisions.  At the end, the highest net worth wins.  Something.  (money for an IRA!).

This is a little time-heavy for setup though.  Good thing I have 10 years to figure it out!

swick

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2015, 11:43:02 AM »
I've been thinking about this for my own kids.  One thing I was thinking is running a "game" (in my head it's called "The American Dream Game").

Basically pick a random 40 window on one of the major stock indices.  let them pick a "profession" and then give them a salary and student loans to go with it.  Each day is 1 year.  let them make choices at some intervals (do you want Cable TV?  How about internet?  How about a house?  Look at all this money!  Can i trick you into buying something useless (aka simulating advertising).)  Let them make spending and saving decisions.  At the end, the highest net worth wins.  Something.  (money for an IRA!).

This is a little time-heavy for setup though.  Good thing I have 10 years to figure it out!

There was a game/learning program we played many years ago when I was in grade 7 called "The Real Game" Which is very similar to what you describe. Apparently it has gone digital. I do hope it has gotten a bit better - I think the only kids who got anything out of it from my class were those who had good role models at home or who had some financial literacy- it didn't do a great job at being interesting - but technology has changed a lot since then.

My main complaint (and hey, I remember it to this day, so maybe it worked?) was that the "careers" were randomly distributed at the beginning of the game and it set your salary for life - no chance of advancement or changing careers. I drew something extremely low paying so despite wanting to explore all these "higher level" parts of the program I didn't really get to because I didn't have the money and found it super discouraging.

I would consider it as a resource though, If they are still working on it (it was a brand new program when we tried it) they might have worked out the kinks.

Anyways here it is:http://www.realgame.com/

GatewayTwo

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2015, 12:42:03 PM »
I agree with your assessment of that game.  It would be hard to make it any fun if there was no career advancement or changes allowed.  Although, if you go strictly online (or even mass market) it's going to be hard to do any sort of "Life, the RPG" game - the rules and assumptions of how play will proceed will get in the way of a mustachian solution - since by definition, we're all here learning to hack the system for our own good. 

I think maybe a paper-and-pencils with computer assistance for the DM would be a little more realistic.  (of course, when I propose this to my little ones in 10 years, they may be all "RPG?  YOU ARE A NERD DAD WTF"  (I am, so no new news there).)

swick

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2015, 12:58:43 PM »
I agree with your assessment of that game.  It would be hard to make it any fun if there was no career advancement or changes allowed.  Although, if you go strictly online (or even mass market) it's going to be hard to do any sort of "Life, the RPG" game - the rules and assumptions of how play will proceed will get in the way of a mustachian solution - since by definition, we're all here learning to hack the system for our own good. 

I think maybe a paper-and-pencils with computer assistance for the DM would be a little more realistic.  (of course, when I propose this to my little ones in 10 years, they may be all "RPG?  YOU ARE A NERD DAD WTF"  (I am, so no new news there).)

I have been working on and off on an RPG program for a couple of years - even got around to outlining it. The problem is if you want it to have mass appeal you basically have to create a whole new system that makes it really easy for the parents to GM without them having a GM background - or confidence in storytelling/adaptability and the other skills a good GM needs. I do need to revisit it.

It would be easy to incorporate a lot of the MMM ideals into an RPG style game though, creativity, bucking or bending the "system" or "established rules" 

Hubs and I are also in the process of creating an MMM board/card came.  Thought it would be a great "soft intro" to both MMM concepts and gaming.

If I get my butt in gear I'll develop an MMM style downloadable course for parents - just not enough hours in the day :)

GatewayTwo

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2015, 01:08:45 PM »
If I get my butt in gear I'll develop an MMM style downloadable course for parents - just not enough hours in the day :)

I think this is what I want to do once I am no longer living in a cubicle all day.  (Although GRS may have beat us to it)

swick

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2015, 01:28:09 PM »
If I get my butt in gear I'll develop an MMM style downloadable course for parents - just not enough hours in the day :)

I think this is what I want to do once I am no longer living in a cubicle all day.  (Although GRS may have beat us to it)

That is a neat course! Doesn't seem like the same target market though. Not all parents are natural teachers so translating the course into fun and relevant activities specifically for kids and teens would be tough for a lot of people - even if the info was spot on.

Also the parents would have to be interested or pretty on-board to even find and want to take a class like that themselves. I would be focusing on resources that can be incorporated into a class or kids could use themselves if their parents weren't interested or could be done as a family so everyone is learning at the same time.

GatewayTwo

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2015, 01:39:30 PM »
This is true.  Actually, if "we" (so some set of mustachians that may or may not include me) manage to come up with good content like this, it would be awesome to take it and turn it into a 501c(3) organization where we can teach kids from all walks of life the "life skills" they need to get ahead.

Because these things we do here are just EASIER if you have a good start.  If you are starting with nothing / a bad situation, you can still get ahead, it just takes more good old-fashioned HARD WORK.

(the list in OP is a great start!)  MMM and jlcollinsnh could be the required reading.

tomsang

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2015, 11:36:17 AM »
Kids are officially out of school. I am going to start implementing these ideas and get them reading MMM.

Thanks for the suggestions.  Keep them coming.

gatortator

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2015, 05:37:12 PM »
apologies if this has been covered elsewhere...

much of your course flow seems to focus on the how.  have you already covered the why?  teenagers may want/need the "buy in" reason.

interesting discussion on a similar topic here:
 http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/help!-have-agreed-to-teach-$-to-20-somethings-in-our-clan-where-to-start/

also this excellent presentation that could easily be adapted to an older audience:
http://nomoreharvarddebt.com/2014/01/29/teaching-a-debt-perspective-to-12-year-olds/

whdwight

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 04:01:24 PM »
A big +1 on the Roth IRA topic/exercise. I've done that with 4 of our 5 who have had summer jobs each year (and will with the 5th teen when he's old enough to get a W-2 paying summer job). I provide matching incentives. Financial journalist Dan Kadlec coined the term "Family 401(k)" for this arrangement, and I think it's brilliant in so many ways. To make the Roth concepts stick, I've found it helpful to walk the teens through a spreadsheet showing their contributions so far and modeling future ones to show what the accumulated value could be by their golden years assuming a 6.8% return on their index funds. The bottom line entry definitely gets their attention and drives home the power of patient, diversified investing over the long haul. I like to show them what I call the "deadbeat" scenario on the spreadsheet too for grins: even if they stopped contributing right after college, they'd still amass a tidy sum.

Another worthy topic is "Net Worth." I maintain a historical net worth spreadsheet with each of the kids. It includes with columns like Checking, Emergency Savings, College Savings, Investments, Retirement (Roth IRA). We add a row and review it each quarter. The repetition is key, because I've found it takes some time for the concepts to really soak in. Each session yields a little more clarity and understanding (not to mention ultimately appreciation).

Lastly, I like to walk each of the teens through the process of filing a tax return (TurboTax free file). The carrot is the refund (if they've done some withholding). The refund also provides a convenient lump sum for the Roth IRA contribution for the Family 401(k) arrangement.

EsLin

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Re: MMM Course for Teenagers
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2015, 08:52:07 AM »
apologies if this has been covered elsewhere...

much of your course flow seems to focus on the how.  have you already covered the why?  teenagers may want/need the "buy in" reason.

interesting discussion on a similar topic here:
 http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/help!-have-agreed-to-teach-$-to-20-somethings-in-our-clan-where-to-start/

also this excellent presentation that could easily be adapted to an older audience:
http://nomoreharvarddebt.com/2014/01/29/teaching-a-debt-perspective-to-12-year-olds/

Thanks for the links Gatortator! The "how" is always helpful but most fascinating to me has always been the "why". That debt perspective presentation does a good job introducing both the "how" and the "why" of it all.