Is this the end for public schools?

[GuitarStv]

on teaching kids that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color.

I'm guessing you're talking about critical race theory with this comment?  Can you tell me what instances specifically you've run into where children were being taught that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color?

I've read over a fair bit of the curriculum associated with CRT, and have never found anything in it to support teaching of any of what's being complained about.

[Shane]

It's interesting, so many people seem to have such knee-jerk reactions against any of their school-tax dollars in any way benefiting religious organizations. Currently, we are thinking of moving our daughter from a state-funded, online, 'cyber' charter school, to a private school associated with a nearby Episcopal church. During a recent tour of the school, we told the Dean of Students that we are not Christians, and asked, to what extent, if any, the curriculum at the school would be influenced by its association with the Episcopal Church. The answer was, basically, not at all. There is a requirement that all students take a class where they learn about world religions, but that's it. I mean, it makes sense that taxpayers wouldn't want to fund madrassas training the next generation of Islamists, but I kinda feel the same way about not wanting to fund far-left extremists in liberal public school districts, who think it's okay to teach little kids that, "All white people are X," or, "All men are X." If a school's teaching kids that the Earth is 6K years old and that dinosaur skeletons were placed here by God to test humans' faith, then, yeah, cut that school off from public funding, but just because a school is associated with a particular church, shouldn't automatically disqualify it for public funding, imho. We're not religious, but tons of Americans are, so, as long as the schools are reasonable, they shouldn't be discriminated against, just because they're associated with a particular religion.

[chemistk]

This thread has convinced me to move my son to a private school after he ages out of his well-funded elementary school. Mostly because the private schools charge a ton to hire good teachers, and we live in a libertarian fever dream state that believes only the wealthy deserve anything. I live in a unique neighborhood full of a mix of out-of-state transplants in medicine / research and some mid-level bureaucratic climate deniers in oil and gas, so there’s a range of opinions on how kids should be taught. But in the end; everyone wants their kids to be rich and realize education is what’ll get them there.
I don’t want my son exposed to the rest of the state’s dystopian society any more than he has to (having grown up in another state’s similar society) so guess we’re part of the problem. But if the majority of the people in a state support perpetuating the problem, then what? I’ve read that there’ll be more self-sorting of those with means to move, and probably will be part of that sorting. However, based on people’s comments here most of the US is in a race to idiocy. Maybe we should move to Canada at some point; @GuitarStv ?

For reference the state is Texas.

Interesting. Our private school pay the lowest. Like in the 30s to start. Terribly admin at times and tons of teacher turn over. They have no job protection or pension either. It's well known that folks go to private if they can't hack it in public school or can't get a job anywhere else.

That's what it is around here. I'm in Pennsylvania.

Also in PA (a different part) and that's the case as well. Most of the private schools aren't some auxiliary buildings attached to a church either, although they're almost exclusively religiously focused with a heavy Mennonite influence, they're typically self sufficient entities.

[Shane]

on teaching kids that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color.

I'm guessing you're talking about critical race theory with this comment?  Can you tell me what instances specifically you've run into where children were being taught that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color?

I've read over a fair bit of the curriculum associated with CRT, and have never found anything in it to support teaching of any of what's being complained about.

Can't give any examples where children were being taught CRT, but I heard a woman interviewed on our local NPR station, a year or two ago, who when asked to explain CRT, responded with, "If you are white, then you are a racist. It doesn't matter if you're a good person, or maybe you have black friends. If you are white, you are a racist!" This is how she started out her explanation to a mostly white, rural audience. If you listened to the rest of her explanation, which went on for several more minutes, she explained what she was talking about in more detail, and it made perfect sense to me. I wonder, though, how many white people heard only the initial sentence of the woman's explanation of CRT, immediately shut off the radio and started calling their legislators, demanding that they, "Do something about this CRT stuff." The problem with CRT, imho, isn't that there is anything inherently wrong with the ideas. It's just that some far-left extremists who are teaching it seem to find particular glee, or something, in "rubbing the white racists' noses in it." They seem to want white people to get down on their knees, grovel, and ask for forgiveness. Predictably, that isn't happening. As we've seen, over the past year or so, state legislatures across the US have been, one after another, passing laws outlawing the teaching of CRT, which is a shame. I blame it, not on the ideas actually contained in CRT, but on the hateful way it is being taught by some people.

[Michael in ABQ]

Most states passed what are referred to as "Blaine Amendments" back in the late 1800s. These were basically laws that prohibited using public funds for religious schools. This was basically targeted at Catholic schools since the public schools were essentially Protestant - though nominally secular. There was a lot of nativist and anti-Catholic sentiment at the time due to the increased immigration from places like Ireland, Italy, Poland, etc. that were heavily Catholic. A recent Supreme Court case - Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue - may end up overturning many of those laws. Basically, they ruled that if a state is going to allow a voucher system for private schools, then they can't allow some private schools (secular) but not allow others (religious).


From a purely selfish standpoint I'd be happy to see a voucher system that would help us pay for even a fraction of our kid's school. But our children's education is a priority to us, so we'll find the money in our budget regardless. It's not like the state-run schools are going to spend any less money because our kids don't use it. In fact, it's the other way. Enrollment keeps dropping and they spend more and more.

[GuitarStv]

on teaching kids that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color.

I'm guessing you're talking about critical race theory with this comment?  Can you tell me what instances specifically you've run into where children were being taught that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color?

I've read over a fair bit of the curriculum associated with CRT, and have never found anything in it to support teaching of any of what's being complained about.

Can't give any examples where children were being taught CRT, but I heard a woman interviewed on our local NPR station, a year or two ago, who when asked to explain CRT, responded with, "If you are white, then you are a racist. It doesn't matter if you're a good person, or maybe you have black friends. If you are white, you are a racist!" This is how she started out her explanation to a mostly white, rural audience. If you listened to the rest of her explanation, which went on for several more minutes, she explained what she was talking about in more detail, and it made perfect sense to me. I wonder, though, how many white people heard only the initial sentence of the woman's explanation of CRT, immediately shut off the radio and started calling their legislators, demanding that they, "Do something about this CRT stuff." The problem with CRT, imho, isn't that there is anything inherently wrong with the ideas. It's just that some far-left extremists who are teaching it seem to find particular glee, or something, in "rubbing the white racists' noses in it." They seem to want white people to get down on their knees, grovel, and ask for forgiveness. Predictably, that isn't happening. As we've seen, over the past year or so, state legislatures across the US have been, one after another, passing laws outlawing the teaching of CRT, which is a shame. I blame it, not on the ideas actually contained in CRT, but on the hateful way it is being taught by some people.

I'm looking for particular instances of this bad teaching to try to understand how people are perceiving what (based on my understanding) should largely just be a focus on US history as it relates to black people - slavery, persecution, and unequal treatment.  What exactly are these far-left extremists saying to rub racist white noses the wrong way?

[Shane]

on teaching kids that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color.

I'm guessing you're talking about critical race theory with this comment?  Can you tell me what instances specifically you've run into where children were being taught that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color?

I've read over a fair bit of the curriculum associated with CRT, and have never found anything in it to support teaching of any of what's being complained about.

Can't give any examples where children were being taught CRT, but I heard a woman interviewed on our local NPR station, a year or two ago, who when asked to explain CRT, responded with, "If you are white, then you are a racist. It doesn't matter if you're a good person, or maybe you have black friends. If you are white, you are a racist!" This is how she started out her explanation to a mostly white, rural audience. If you listened to the rest of her explanation, which went on for several more minutes, she explained what she was talking about in more detail, and it made perfect sense to me. I wonder, though, how many white people heard only the initial sentence of the woman's explanation of CRT, immediately shut off the radio and started calling their legislators, demanding that they, "Do something about this CRT stuff." The problem with CRT, imho, isn't that there is anything inherently wrong with the ideas. It's just that some far-left extremists who are teaching it seem to find particular glee, or something, in "rubbing the white racists' noses in it." They seem to want white people to get down on their knees, grovel, and ask for forgiveness. Predictably, that isn't happening. As we've seen, over the past year or so, state legislatures across the US have been, one after another, passing laws outlawing the teaching of CRT, which is a shame. I blame it, not on the ideas actually contained in CRT, but on the hateful way it is being taught by some people.

I'm looking for particular instances of this bad teaching to try to understand how people are perceiving what (based on my understanding) should largely just be a focus on US history as it relates to black people - slavery, persecution, and unequal treatment.  What exactly are these far-left extremists saying to rub racist white noses the wrong way?

It makes total sense for a professor teaching a black studies course at a university to start off the semester by setting some ground rules, explaining to students that, "In this course, when I use the word 'racism', it will always be referring to institutional/systemic racism." Given that probably 95% of Americans don't have a clue what 'systemic racism' means, it seems to me that it should be incumbent on people disseminating information about CRT to first give some context, rather than starting off a talk about CRT by saying, "All. white. people. are. racists!" lol. It just seems so obvious to me that that strategy is doomed to failure, but I think maybe that's what some of them want, because it confirms the narrative they already 'know' to be true.

[zolotiyeruki]

on teaching kids that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color.

I'm guessing you're talking about critical race theory with this comment?  Can you tell me what instances specifically you've run into where children were being taught that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color?

I've read over a fair bit of the curriculum associated with CRT, and have never found anything in it to support teaching of any of what's being complained about.

CRT, or anti-racism, or whatever new label is applied, yes.  There are several examples listed here (you can ignore the rest of the article, just scroll down to the paragraph that starts "There are plenty of examples"), or this article (yeah, yeah, it's a reason.com article, but the story is very real).

CRT is a serious issue for a lot of parents on its own, but I think it's more than that.  It's the latest and possibly most stark example of a larger trend: public schools trending more liberal, becoming more imperious and less responsive to parents, and spending ever-increasing time, money, and focus on social issues at the expense of traditional academic rigor.

[Psychstache]

This thread has convinced me to move my son to a private school after he ages out of his well-funded elementary school. Mostly because the private schools charge a ton to hire good teachers, and we live in a libertarian fever dream state that believes only the wealthy deserve anything. I live in a unique neighborhood full of a mix of out-of-state transplants in medicine / research and some mid-level bureaucratic climate deniers in oil and gas, so there’s a range of opinions on how kids should be taught. But in the end; everyone wants their kids to be rich and realize education is what’ll get them there.
I don’t want my son exposed to the rest of the state’s dystopian society any more than he has to (having grown up in another state’s similar society) so guess we’re part of the problem. But if the majority of the people in a state support perpetuating the problem, then what? I’ve read that there’ll be more self-sorting of those with means to move, and probably will be part of that sorting. However, based on people’s comments here most of the US is in a race to idiocy. Maybe we should move to Canada at some point; @GuitarStv ?

For reference the state is Texas.

Interesting. Our private school pay the lowest. Like in the 30s to start. Terribly admin at times and tons of teacher turn over. They have no job protection or pension either. It's well known that folks go to private if they can't hack it in public school or can't get a job anywhere else.

Yes, most public schools in Texas are like this, many of them religious schools, but there are also a small subset of secular elite private schools. They also don't pay well either, but teachers choose them for a variety of reasons, such as a lower behavior problems that endanger their safety or the chance to hobknob with the upper crust and go to PTO events that are basically black tie charity events. You have more parent involvement, but sometimes that parent involvement is being yelled at by a well connected power couple with a building at the school named after them and you spend the year getting steamrolled by them and a cowering administrator.

All that said, it can be a great gig where you get to do advanced academics work with kids who are motivated or can be effectively incentivized and you have the resources to offer great and unique learning experiences to kids, so it is not all dumpster fire city.

[GuitarStv]

on teaching kids that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color.

I'm guessing you're talking about critical race theory with this comment?  Can you tell me what instances specifically you've run into where children were being taught that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color?

I've read over a fair bit of the curriculum associated with CRT, and have never found anything in it to support teaching of any of what's being complained about.

CRT, or anti-racism, or whatever new label is applied, yes.  There are several examples listed here (you can ignore the rest of the article, just scroll down to the paragraph that starts "There are plenty of examples"), or this article (yeah, yeah, it's a reason.com article, but the story is very real).

OK . . . so in the first link you've posted I'm getting three complaints about CRT:

1. Celebration of Angela Davis as described in the city journal article here (https://www.city-journal.org/philadelphia-fifth-graders-forced-to-celebrate-black-communism) - Angela Davis is a really weird choice to run with for the teacher.  Her main claim to fame has been her opposition to the oppressive way that prisons are run in the US, but she has a lot of kooky beliefs.  She was prosecuted for several felonies (including conspiracy to commit murder), but later acquitted.  Like I said - weird choice.  The main pearl clutching concern in the article seems to be that the teacher is discussing communism.  I'm not really seeing anything there about teaching children that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color though.  I'm also not really seeing all that much linking what the teacher was doing to critical race theory curriculum.  So I guess we can chalk this up to a bad subject choice by a teacher?


2. Discussion of power and privilege as described in the city journal article here (https://www.city-journal.org/identity-politics-in-cupertino-california-elementary-school).  The pearl clutching here seems to largely be focused on definitions and examples given:

Most of which seem to be pretty uncontroversial:
“those with privilege have power over others”

“a white, cisgender man, who is able-bodied, heterosexual, considered handsome and speaks English has more privilege than a Black transgender woman.”

Some of which are certainly more bullshitty sounding at first glance:
“there are parts of us that hold some power and other parts that are oppressed”
    I don't think that oppression really works this way?  Would really need to hear the context of the usage.

“folx who do not benefit from their social identities, who are in the subordinate culture, have little to no privilege and power.”
    I don't believe that people who do not benefit from social identities have no power.  Gay people are generally accepted to not benefit from their identities.  Elton Jon is a gay and powerful man.  So . . . but again, I'd really need to hear the context that this is given in.  (I'm also not really a fan of use of the term 'folx' - but that's a whole other issue).

The rest of what's described seems to just applying the definitions to their own lives - list several privileges, rank by importance, identify privileges in your own life, write an essay about it. 

It's not teaching children that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color - it's giving them a framework to understand how institutional racism works.  But definitely, it's a topic that needs to be treated carefully by the teacher.  None of the articles mention the teacher doing a bad job though . . . so it sounds like that wasn't a problem?


3. Integration of ethnic studies to the Seattle math curriculum changes here (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/seattle-schools-lead-controversial-push-to-rehumanize-math/2019/10)

The push to integrate different topics in the classroom has been going on for a long time.  Proponents argue that it better mirrors the way that the human brain thinks, opponents tend to argue that people learn better focusing on one individual topic at a time.  I tend to agree with the opponents more personally, and don't believe there's much value in this particular integration - as I'm not convinced that power/oppression play significant roles in elementary school mathmatics. 

So out of hand the whole thing seems pretty bullshitty.

“Of course there are right answers in math. We’re not saying there aren’t.

What we’re saying is that there are many ways of reaching conclusions, and that process should include dialogue. If a student got the right answer, we should celebrate that ingenuity and intelligence instead of telling them there is only one way to get to that right answer.”

When too many black and Latino students see no place for themselves in math and science, Castro-Gill said, it’s important to be explicit about how their own cultures contribute to math and how they can use it to make their communities, and the world, better.

That starts to paint things in a different light though.  If you go back to studies of standardized testing, time and again they've shown that the cultural wording/encoding of mathematical questions will give different test results (https://uscaseps.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/standardized-testing.pdf).  So it makes me start to wonder if there would be some benefit to doing this.

But again . . . the article doesn't discuss any instance of teaching children that they should feel guilt, inferior, or indebted to others based on their skin color.

CRT is a serious issue for a lot of parents on its own, but I think it's more than that.  It's the latest and possibly most stark example of a larger trend: public schools trending more liberal, becoming more imperious and less responsive to parents, and spending ever-increasing time, money, and focus on social issues at the expense of traditional academic rigor.

Are these schools focusing on social issues at the expense of traditional academic rigor?  That sounds like a plausible, if significant claim to make.  What actual data do you have to back it up?

[marble_faun]

This thread has convinced me to move my son to a private school after he ages out of his well-funded elementary school. Mostly because the private schools charge a ton to hire good teachers, and we live in a libertarian fever dream state that believes only the wealthy deserve anything. I live in a unique neighborhood full of a mix of out-of-state transplants in medicine / research and some mid-level bureaucratic climate deniers in oil and gas, so there’s a range of opinions on how kids should be taught. But in the end; everyone wants their kids to be rich and realize education is what’ll get them there.
I don’t want my son exposed to the rest of the state’s dystopian society any more than he has to (having grown up in another state’s similar society) so guess we’re part of the problem. But if the majority of the people in a state support perpetuating the problem, then what? I’ve read that there’ll be more self-sorting of those with means to move, and probably will be part of that sorting. However, based on people’s comments here most of the US is in a race to idiocy. Maybe we should move to Canada at some point; @GuitarStv ?

For reference the state is Texas.

Interesting. Our private school pay the lowest. Like in the 30s to start. Terribly admin at times and tons of teacher turn over. They have no job protection or pension either. It's well known that folks go to private if they can't hack it in public school or can't get a job anywhere else.

That's what it is around here. I'm in Pennsylvania.

There are different kinds of private schools. There are the preppy/exclusive schools that often look have the look and feel of college campuses. They advertise their academic rigor and tend to draw the wealthiest families. (When I think generic "private school" this is what my mind goes to.) Then there are the hippie/experimental schools that tend to say they are more about students' creativity, freedom, and self-discovery. And then there are the bare-bones, relatively low-cost private schools. Sometimes these are church-affiliated, or they may have started off as segregation academies. These are catering to religious families and/or families who deeply don't want their kids in public school but can't afford the preppy school.

Very different culture at each school type.

[charis]

This thread has convinced me to move my son to a private school after he ages out of his well-funded elementary school. Mostly because the private schools charge a ton to hire good teachers, and we live in a libertarian fever dream state that believes only the wealthy deserve anything. I live in a unique neighborhood full of a mix of out-of-state transplants in medicine / research and some mid-level bureaucratic climate deniers in oil and gas, so there’s a range of opinions on how kids should be taught. But in the end; everyone wants their kids to be rich and realize education is what’ll get them there.
I don’t want my son exposed to the rest of the state’s dystopian society any more than he has to (having grown up in another state’s similar society) so guess we’re part of the problem. But if the majority of the people in a state support perpetuating the problem, then what? I’ve read that there’ll be more self-sorting of those with means to move, and probably will be part of that sorting. However, based on people’s comments here most of the US is in a race to idiocy. Maybe we should move to Canada at some point; @GuitarStv ?

For reference the state is Texas.

Interesting. Our private school pay the lowest. Like in the 30s to start. Terribly admin at times and tons of teacher turn over. They have no job protection or pension either. It's well known that folks go to private if they can't hack it in public school or can't get a job anywhere else.

That's what it is around here. I'm in Pennsylvania.

There are different kinds of private schools. There are the preppy/exclusive schools that often look have the look and feel of college campuses. They advertise their academic rigor and tend to draw the wealthiest families. (When I think generic "private school" this is what my mind goes to.) Then there are the hippie/experimental schools that tend to say they are more about students' creativity, freedom, and self-discovery. And then there are the bare-bones, relatively low-cost private schools. Sometimes these are church-affiliated, or they may have started off as segregation academies. These are catering to religious families and/or families who deeply don't want their kids in public school but can't afford the preppy school.

Very different culture at each school type.

All types in my area pay less to teachers than public, and the most expensive pay the least. It's very odd

[joe189man]

This is all quite depressing.

[waltworks]

It is indeed depressing, the schools have become a proxy for the larger culture wars, so we fight about things like what bathroom kids go to or CRT or making sure nobody talks about religion instead of the actual problems, which have to do with lack of money AND a bloated/corrupt rent-seeking class of administrators and unions that have hijacked the system for their own benefit.

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

[maizefolk]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

Definitely a symptom of something more broken with our politics generally.

My guess is at least a plurality of parents feel the same but they are neither organized nor do messages like "I don't care about the political stuff so long teachers are effectively teaching true and useful stuff" pick up traction and generate outrage on social media or sell papers/attract eyeballs for news outlets.

I went to public school in a place and time where just mentioning evolution made the teacher nervously change the subject (great tool when you don't know the answer to a question). It wasn't optimal but anywhere from 1/3-1/2 of my teachers were really good and I otherwise learned a lot.

[joe189man]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

I 100% agree, you are not alone.

[Morning Glory]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

I 100% agree, you are not alone.

Yeah, same here. I just want competent teachers who get well compensated for doing their jobs like they have in every other developed country, not book banning or witch hunts.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

I 100% agree, you are not alone.

Yeah, same here. I just want competent teachers who get well compensated for doing their jobs like they have in every other developed country, not book banning or witch hunts.

This is also what most teachers want. I do think it's a vocal minority that pushes against things they don't like. Most people IRL complain about schools - but it's about how a particular teacher did something they didn't like or whatever - usually related to discipline or lack thereof or grades. There's not that much complaining about political agendas whe the rubber meets the road in my experience.

[GuitarStv]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

I 100% agree, you are not alone.

Yeah, same here. I just want competent teachers who get well compensated for doing their jobs like they have in every other developed country, not book banning or witch hunts.

This is also what most teachers want. I do think it's a vocal minority that pushes against things they don't like. Most people IRL complain about schools - but it's about how a particular teacher did something they didn't like or whatever - usually related to discipline or lack thereof or grades. There's not that much complaining about political agendas whe the rubber meets the road in my experience.

I'm in a weird spot with the "don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus" thing.

I don't have a problem with exposure to religion through schooling, but am always nervous that exposure could lead to indoctrination, so tend to be against mixing the two.  And yet (for a long winded variety of reasons that I won't get into but which boil down to 'because it's pretty clearly better for him') my son is currently attending a Catholic school . . . even though we're not a Catholic (or even Christian) family.

[jeninco]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

I 100% agree, you are not alone.

Yeah, same here. I just want competent teachers who get well compensated for doing their jobs like they have in every other developed country, not book banning or witch hunts.

This is also what most teachers want. I do think it's a vocal minority that pushes against things they don't like. Most people IRL complain about schools - but it's about how a particular teacher did something they didn't like or whatever - usually related to discipline or lack thereof or grades. There's not that much complaining about political agendas whe the rubber meets the road in my experience.

I'm in a weird spot with the "don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus" thing.

I don't have a problem with exposure to religion through schooling, but am always nervous that exposure could lead to indoctrination, so tend to be against mixing the two.  And yet (for a long winded variety of reasons that I won't get into but which boil down to 'because it's pretty clearly better for him') my son is currently attending a Catholic school . . . even though we're not a Catholic (or even Christian) family.

Yeah, I had to go think about this for a while. And the upshot is that I'm happy for my kid to learn more about everything, but there's a difference between learning about world religions, and being indoctrinated in the "this is the way things are, and ... is literally TRUE, and if you don't believe it you're going to Hell." (those dots are meant to represent all the things currently tied up in American christianity that are strongly in opposition to what we believe) And before you even lash back at me, I'm going to take the position that what you BELIEVE and what is historical or scientific fact, fully supported by available evidence, are not equivalent. You can BELIEVE that God thinks women are second class citizens and shouldn't be in charge of men, but you don't get to teach that (in public schools, at least) as credible fact. Whereas the historical fact of slavery (or Nazi death camps) are amply supported by evidence of all sorts.

But my larger problem with this conversation is that some participants seem to be taking the position that it's OK to treat people with different beliefs (or "lifestyles", what a terrible word!) disrespectfully, when part of what schools should be teaching is to treat everyone else with some amount of respect. Straight white Christian family? Cool -- I may not share all your beliefs, but I'm going to treat you with respect. Black Muslim family? Nice to meet you, let's talk about important school stuff. Two dads? Two moms? Trans parent? All good -- we have something in common, and I'm going to treat you all as peer human beings.

Somehow it's become OK (and I guess it earns political points) to deny the existence of parents (or kids!) who are in same-sex relationships, or are trans (and out), or the fact that slavery and Jim Crow were actual historical facts for much of the history of the US. Treating everyone with a modicum of respect and honesty seems to be unstylish.  Being willing to see other people how they'd like to be seen and still treat them respectfully seems like an adult skill that a number of participants in this conversation are choosing to willfully forgo.

[maizefolk]

And the upshot is that I'm happy for my kid to learn more about everything, but there's a difference between learning about world religions, and being indoctrinated in the "this is the way things are, and ... is literally TRUE, and if you don't believe it you're going to Hell." (those dots are meant to represent all the things currently tied up in American christianity that are strongly in opposition to what we believe)

Out of curiosity, if you're in the USA, what broad part of the country did you grow up in/go to school in? I'm curious if you're speaking from experience here or about something that is unknown or hypothetical in your own lived experience.

I grew up and went to school where 90+% of both students and teachers held onto a lot of views that I (and it sounds like you) would vehemently disagree with. And they were not shy about sharing or advocating for those views. Yet my experience was quite different from what it sounds like you are picturing.

Being willing to see other people how they'd like to be seen and still treat them respectfully seems like an adult skill that a number of participants in this conversation are choosing to willfully forgo.

I agree. Meet people where they are. Respect the person and treat them with respect even if you don't share their beliefs or views. Try to understand that most folks don't see themselves as as the bad guys. It would be great if we taught children more about how to do this and if we were better about doing it as a nation.

It feels like we've been getting an awful lot worse at those same skills, but I don't know if that represents a genuine trend or just the cynicism that comes with increasing age.

[jeninco]

And the upshot is that I'm happy for my kid to learn more about everything, but there's a difference between learning about world religions, and being indoctrinated in the "this is the way things are, and ... is literally TRUE, and if you don't believe it you're going to Hell." (those dots are meant to represent all the things currently tied up in American christianity that are strongly in opposition to what we believe)

Out of curiosity, if you're in the USA, what broad part of the country did you grow up in/go to school in? I'm curious if you're speaking from experience here or about something that is unknown or hypothetical in your own lived experience.

I grew up and went to school where 90+% of both students and teachers held onto a lot of views that I (and it sounds like you) would vehemently disagree with. And they were not shy about sharing or advocating for those views. Yet my experience was quite different from what it sounds like you are picturing.

Being willing to see other people how they'd like to be seen and still treat them respectfully seems like an adult skill that a number of participants in this conversation are choosing to willfully forgo.

I agree. Meet people where they are. Respect the person and treat them with respect even if you don't share their beliefs or views. Try to understand that most folks don't see themselves as as the bad guys. It would be great if we taught children more about how to do this and if we were better about doing it as a nation.

It feels like we've been getting an awful lot worse at those same skills, but I don't know if that represents a genuine trend or just the cynicism that comes with increasing age.

I grew up in Washington DC, and attended DCPS. My now nearly-grown children went to school in the place we currently live, which I'm (barely) hiding as "Hippistan CO".

A particularly loved person in my life was a long-time excellent (and award-winning) teacher in VA, where she could've been fired at any point in her multi-decade career for merely being gay, even if she never, ever said anything about it.

 And reading the news about teachers being fired for, say, passing out pride bracelets (in a high school, so students could support classmates) or mentioning that slavery was bad (CRT, and plus white children might feel bad) is making me want to puke. I'd love to see WHY Florida just rejected a huge pile of math books, ("CRT", which apparently now means "anything that might make white children or their parents feel bad" was given as one reason) but also ... I just kind of can't right now. I have actual work to get done today!

I'm sorry to say that I think we're getting worse about modeling respectful behavior as a nation. And the Trump years (and idiots like Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Greene, who seem to think that "powning the libs" and scoring social media points are more important that actually being able to legislate) have made this much, much worse, because people in power have been modeling really appalling behavior.

[maizefolk]

And reading the news about teachers being fired for, say, ... mentioning that slavery was bad

Could you link to the story of a teaching being fired for condemning slavery? If not understandable. Sometimes when we face issues that are A) Really bad B) outside of our circle of control the best strategy is to simply avoid engaging.

[waltworks]

I'd also like to hear more about a teacher being fired for saying slavery was bad. That sounds pretty implausible in even a very conservative place. I *can* imagine someone claiming that's why they were fired when in fact they were fired for some other reason, though (that is in fact something currently happening in our school district with an incompetent employee who is claiming he was fired for being gay).

-W

[Psychstache]

Out of curiosity, if you're in the USA, what broad part of the country did you grow up in/go to school in? I'm curious if you're speaking from experience here or about something that is unknown or hypothetical in your own lived experience.

I am Jewish and live in the Southern US. One of my "favorite" games when I get to know someone better is to ask them when was the 1st time they recall an adult telling them they were going to hell. Not in a there was a crazy dude with a megaphone on the side of the road ranting, but a one on one conversation of "You, PsychStache, are going to be cast down to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior" way. Just about everyone who grew up around here (even the "godless liberal big city" parts of the state) has a story, usually from some time in early childhood or adolescence. My personal favorite is a friend who was flying as an unaccompanied minor at 11 to go home. She was in a window seat and a nice older lady sat next to her. The older lady noticed her Star of David necklace and asked her if she was comfortable with the fact that she was going to burn in hell for all eternity. Nice introduction.

[FLBiker]

Out of curiosity, if you're in the USA, what broad part of the country did you grow up in/go to school in? I'm curious if you're speaking from experience here or about something that is unknown or hypothetical in your own lived experience.

I am Jewish and live in the Southern US. One of my "favorite" games when I get to know someone better is to ask them when was the 1st time they recall an adult telling them they were going to hell. Not in a there was a crazy dude with a megaphone on the side of the road ranting, but a one on one conversation of "You, PsychStache, are going to be cast down to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior" way. Just about everyone who grew up around here (even the "godless liberal big city" parts of the state) has a story, usually from some time in early childhood or adolescence. My personal favorite is a friend who was flying as an unaccompanied minor at 11 to go home. She was in a window seat and a nice older lady sat next to her. The older lady noticed her Star of David necklace and asked her if she was comfortable with the fact that she was going to burn in hell for all eternity. Nice introduction.

I've never thought about that exactly that way before, but I definitely had that experience growing up as an Athiest. Although, in fairness, it was usually other kids telling me I was going to hell (or, strangely, that I worshiped the devil).

Regardless, we moved from Florida to Nova Scotia before our daughter started kindergarten (aka primary in Canada) largely because of schools.  School here (semi-rural small town) isn't perfect, but it's pretty good.  The cafeteria cooks real food every day, and French immersion is available (and my daughter really likes it).  Kids and teachers both seem pretty nice, for the most part.  The only downside is the lack of pull-out gifted, but I'm not sure where we could find that.  Maybe in Halifax?

It's definitely clear in Canada that there is more of a "let's educate everyone up to a certain level" focus rather than "let's identify our best and brightest and lift them as high as possible".  Philosophically, I agree with that, despite the fact that our daughter is really smart and could likely benefit from a gifted program.  Ultimately, I think a more community-focused approach will bring the greater good.

[charis]

My understanding is that you are correct, the gift tracking has been increasingly abandoned in favor of the greater good. At best, it still contributes to segregation and inequity.

[maizefolk]

Out of curiosity, if you're in the USA, what broad part of the country did you grow up in/go to school in? I'm curious if you're speaking from experience here or about something that is unknown or hypothetical in your own lived experience.

I am Jewish and live in the Southern US. One of my "favorite" games when I get to know someone better is to ask them when was the 1st time they recall an adult telling them they were going to hell. Not in a there was a crazy dude with a megaphone on the side of the road ranting, but a one on one conversation of "You, PsychStache, are going to be cast down to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior" way. Just about everyone who grew up around here (even the "godless liberal big city" parts of the state) has a story, usually from some time in early childhood or adolescence. My personal favorite is a friend who was flying as an unaccompanied minor at 11 to go home. She was in a window seat and a nice older lady sat next to her. The older lady noticed her Star of David necklace and asked her if she was comfortable with the fact that she was going to burn in hell for all eternity. Nice introduction.

I'm not sure what my age at first being told I was going to hell but probably something like 8-10 years old? It was at some sort of summer day camp.

[GuitarStv]

Out of curiosity, if you're in the USA, what broad part of the country did you grow up in/go to school in? I'm curious if you're speaking from experience here or about something that is unknown or hypothetical in your own lived experience.

I am Jewish and live in the Southern US. One of my "favorite" games when I get to know someone better is to ask them when was the 1st time they recall an adult telling them they were going to hell. Not in a there was a crazy dude with a megaphone on the side of the road ranting, but a one on one conversation of "You, PsychStache, are going to be cast down to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior" way. Just about everyone who grew up around here (even the "godless liberal big city" parts of the state) has a story, usually from some time in early childhood or adolescence. My personal favorite is a friend who was flying as an unaccompanied minor at 11 to go home. She was in a window seat and a nice older lady sat next to her. The older lady noticed her Star of David necklace and asked her if she was comfortable with the fact that she was going to burn in hell for all eternity. Nice introduction.

I'm not sure what my age at first being told I was going to hell but probably something like 8-10 years old? It was at some sort of summer day camp.

Weird how different people's experiences are.  A fair bit of my childhood was spent going to the United Church of Canada, so I initially ended up with a very distorted view of what Christianity actually was as a child.  The UCC isn't perfect . . . but overall they're pretty good on loving and welcoming.  They're fine with gay people, fine with other religious ideas (there are many paths to God concept), don't exactly advocate for abortion or divorce but see both as sometimes necessary, generally view a church as just a community place where people get together to help one another, and see the bible as an old manuscript with some good messages but also a lot of human mistakes and translation errors written into it that needs to be carefully analyzed.

My dad had a policy of going to whatever church was closest though, and we ended up moving a fair bit.  So we also went to Anglican, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc. churches.  I couldn't (and still don't really) understand why Christianity was so often a message of hate and exclusion.  That really appears to be the default setting, rather than the exception . . . and it's all the more frustrating to see because I know that it really doesn't have to be that way.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

I 100% agree, you are not alone.

Yeah, same here. I just want competent teachers who get well compensated for doing their jobs like they have in every other developed country, not book banning or witch hunts.

This is also what most teachers want. I do think it's a vocal minority that pushes against things they don't like. Most people IRL complain about schools - but it's about how a particular teacher did something they didn't like or whatever - usually related to discipline or lack thereof or grades. There's not that much complaining about political agendas whe the rubber meets the road in my experience.

I'm in a weird spot with the "don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus" thing.

I don't have a problem with exposure to religion through schooling, but am always nervous that exposure could lead to indoctrination, so tend to be against mixing the two.  And yet (for a long winded variety of reasons that I won't get into but which boil down to 'because it's pretty clearly better for him') my son is currently attending a Catholic school . . . even though we're not a Catholic (or even Christian) family.

If the school did true indoctrination, sure, I could understand people's frustrations. However, in my experience, people that complain about "CRT or Jesus" being taught are almost always being ridiculous. They're projecting what they assume is happening in school or taking a word or two out of a syllabus out of context coupled with assumptions that they're sure the teacher is indoctrinating their kid in whatever direction they deem bad and make a huge deal out of it. Do you think there's a prevalence in public schools of teachers teaching either of those two to the level of indoctrination? I'm sure it can happen in isolated incidents, and I have no doubt that people through their attitudes and perspectives make some students uncomfortable. I really doubt there's much indoctrination going on in either direction, IMO.

[sonofsven]

I stopped going to church at age 10. My mom and sister went, but my dad didn't, so I said I didn't want to go either and I got away with it.
I could tell it was a big waste of time, and I thought the bible stories were ridiculous.
We had a school bus driver (way rural) that would leave those little tiny religious comics on the bus. We would read them and just make fun of them. I'm sure he heard us but like a good Christian he thought "if I only reach one child, it's worth it". The same type of eternal damnation crap, and also the rapture, where the good xian folk would just disappear! Seemed nice, really.
Later I went to a catholic (Jesuit) university for one year, and of course most of the students went to Catholic high schools.
I thought their insistence on going to confession because they were partying too much to be very strange. I asked if they felt bad, for too much partying? No, they answered.
Well, are you going to stop partying so much? Again, no. They liked partying! Then why do you need to go to confession? It just made no sense to me. "Because it's a sin!".
The Jesuit brothers, however, who taught some of the classes I was taking, were amazing individuals. I learned a lot from them.
Now though I recognize that religion and the church offer a lot of comfort to people, so I don't shit talk religion publicly. Except for here :)

I had an elderly man come to my house for many years to talk to me about his religion (7th day adventist). I live at the end of a long-ish unimproved road and I don't get many visitors.
But he came and knocked on my door and I was polite to him. He asked me questions and I answered honestly. He stopped by every few months and we would talk for a few minutes. I never invited him in, just stand on the porch and chat. He couldn't drive so he had young members of his church drive him.
He brought me a bible. His health was failing and he didn't visit for quite a while. One of the young drivers came out and told me he'd passed. He was never trying to convince me of anything, he was just driven to "spread the word". That aspect of religion, they really do that for themselves, the spreading of the word. Even though they say it's for us non believers, it's not.
Can you imagine, driving around the country, knocking on stranger's doors and giving that spiel? Lock me in the loony bin.

[chemistk]

I don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus or whatever from their teacher, even if I thought that was actually happening. They're not going to become a godless communist transvestite or MAGA right wing militia lunatic unless I'm really out of the loop at home, so whatever. I'd rather focus on making sure they learn a lot from someone who is getting well paid to do a great job. But as far as I can tell I'm completely alone there.

-W

I 100% agree, you are not alone.

Yeah, same here. I just want competent teachers who get well compensated for doing their jobs like they have in every other developed country, not book banning or witch hunts.

This is also what most teachers want. I do think it's a vocal minority that pushes against things they don't like. Most people IRL complain about schools - but it's about how a particular teacher did something they didn't like or whatever - usually related to discipline or lack thereof or grades. There's not that much complaining about political agendas whe the rubber meets the road in my experience.

I'm in a weird spot with the "don't care if my kid hears about CRT or Jesus" thing.

I don't have a problem with exposure to religion through schooling, but am always nervous that exposure could lead to indoctrination, so tend to be against mixing the two.  And yet (for a long winded variety of reasons that I won't get into but which boil down to 'because it's pretty clearly better for him') my son is currently attending a Catholic school . . . even though we're not a Catholic (or even Christian) family.

If the school did true indoctrination, sure, I could understand people's frustrations. However, in my experience, people that complain about "CRT or Jesus" being taught are almost always being ridiculous. They're projecting what they assume is happening in school or taking a word or two out of a syllabus out of context coupled with assumptions that they're sure the teacher is indoctrinating their kid in whatever direction they deem bad and make a huge deal out of it. Do you think there's a prevalence in public schools of teachers teaching either of those two to the level of indoctrination? I'm sure it can happen in isolated incidents, and I have no doubt that people through their attitudes and perspectives make some students uncomfortable. I really doubt there's much indoctrination going on in either direction, IMO.

Or, in other words, it's just the latest cultural moral panic.

On our way to cub scouts the other night, somehow my conversation with my 7 year old veered towards the topic of slavery. I don't remember how but I definitely didn't instigate it. His explanation of slavery, as learned in the classroom, was essentially "A bunch of white people, a long time ago, thought it was a good idea to have Black people as slaves and then Abraham Lincoln and Harriet Tubman helped to free all the slaves and now we don't have slavery." He then waxed poetic about how cool Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad were for a couple minutes. His reading comprehension is very, very good but like most kids at 7, they don't have the vocabulary or mental tools to slow down and effectively communicate everything they want to and I could see the wheels in his head were spinning 5x the speed his mouth could keep up.

I stopped him and offered a few short points of clarification - it wasn't just Black people who were treated poorly, Abraham Lincoln wasn't the only person who worked to end slavery, and there are still unfortunately many ways Black people and other people who look different are treated poorly.

Without leading him, I simply asked him how he felt about the subject. His succinct answer was that slavery is not okay, he's glad that slavery was ended, and that Harriet Tubman was cool.

My point with this - it's absolutely, categorically, not what I learned in first grade Social Studies. We didn't fully cover slavery beyond a passing mention in relation to the Civil War in the private Christian school I attended until the 5th grade and didn't have earnest conversations about it until the 7th grade.

Instead, we did cover a lot of the history surrounding the formation of the Christian faith. I certainly knew more about the events of the old testament than I did about the cultural history of our own country and certainly not the bad points.

My son can articulate the basic points of Christianity thanks to religious ed. We attend Church by our own choice and last year my wife and I a serious evaluation of our faith and what it meant to us at this point in our lives. We decided to continue to attend and practice faith and to have our kids attend religious ed. (well, attending the Catholic Church, that's a requirement). He knows who many of the major Biblical figures are, the importance of each of the holidays, and can come up with his own feeling about faith and what it means to him.

My first grader is not 'woke'. He's not indoctrinated from either angle. He has a realistic understanding of the good and the bad of the world around him. He doesn't feel shame around kids who look different from him and he's not asking each of his friends about Jesus. In cub scouts we learned about some of the issues that the organization has faced, and at each level scouts are expected to go through some form of training that helps them to understand different types of assault in forms that their age level can comprehend and recognize. He didn't feel shameful or scared after watching the training and talking about it, and neither did any of the other scouts.

Most of the fear that hand-wringers propagate, be it from education about slavery or religion or sexual violence or how our bodies work, comes from how parents and other adult figures of authority articulate and react to each of those subjects. Kids are looking at us for cues for how to feel about every single topic. If we tell them they must not feel shameful for being white then they're going to question why we had to discuss that subject in that manner. If we tell them that the Muslim kid in the class is going to Hell, they're going to internalize that and view their friend as an 'other'. If we say that we don't talk about the anatomical differences between boys and girls and make them feel shameful for thinking about it, they're going to believe that those parts of the body are shameful to be curious about.

The irony is that the fears parents feel about other people are the seeds that grow within their own children and the children over whom they have influence. By not letting them explore the world around them and develop their own thoughts and feelings about any of the various subjects they touch, we're cultivating the exact same fears and behaviors that we are trying to eradicate in the advocacy of sheltering kids from unpleasant subjects.

My 7 year old knows what slavery is, knows about God, knows what a penis is, knows that there are people who seek to harm him, knows about people with two mothers/fathers, knows that adults struggle with mental health. And you know what? All he wants to do is be a kid - unencumbered by arbitrary moral 'rights' and 'wrongs'. Our school district isn't perfect, nor is our Church, nor is scouts, nor are we as parents. But I think we're doing just fine by him, letting him navigate is life without placing arbitrary guardrails around him.

[familyandfarming]

@chemistk   Well said!

[charis]

My kids are in the white minority in their school and have been engaged in anti racism type content and black culture/cultural events their whole education, both formally and informally. We also bring them to museums and watch movies or read books that depict historical examples of racism and ethnic/religious hate. My oldest understands and can discuss systemic racism and sexism.

So I assume they'd be considered"woke" by right wing standards.  They've never once expressed or exhibited any guilt or indebtedness for being white. I'm 100% convinced that this is a made up argument and any thoughts of guilt are put there by the very adults who are ranting about it. Is there any actual evidence that crt causes this independent of people raising this issue in a talking point?

[startingsmall]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

[Log]

Re: the whole “CRT” panic - it brings to mind that old meme of “the facts have a liberal bias.” My US history curriculum included reckoning with the fact that European colonists committed genocide against native Americans, repeatedly. Not just in the colonial days in centuries that are hard to conceive of, but continuing after the ratification of the constitution and the existence of the United States as we know it today, we were committing genocide against natives and systematically destroying their ability to pass on their languages and culture from generation to generation. We reckoned with slavery, and the fact that the south seceded over slavery (not “states rights”), and that slavery and racism was so baked into this country that even the north was not unified about abolishing slavery. We reckoned with the botched reconstruction and the legacy of Jim Crow. We reckoned with the fact that beloved-on-the-left president FDR threw American citizens into prison camps because their family, at one point, came from Japan. In short, we reckoned with the fact that a democracy of normal, well-intentioned people, can (and has) repeatedly commit moral atrocities on the basis of race.

All this anti-CRT stuff isn’t about protecting kids from crazy radical leftists who are going to teach your kid they’re bad because they’re white. It’s about preventing teachers from teaching the facts - that the wounds of actively racist government policy are still fresh, historically speaking, and that we need to be  aware as citizens of the temptation of racial fear-mongering and division.

Republicans know that confronting these issues in school might help raise alarm bells for students when Youtube sends them down a rabbit-hole to Ben Shapiro talking about “violent cultures” or Jordan Peterson talking about “identity politics” as the greatest peril to the nation. They need people to be poorly educated if they want to continue getting votes, so they’re going to sabotage education instead of actually articulating a policy platform that keeps them relevant in the 21st century. If their policy positions are bad, they just need a citizenry that’s dumb enough to like bad policy. And if they can do that at the state level, then they just need to lock in 25 states with horrendous education policy to stop any liberals from moving there, and then they don’t need to worry about the senate ever passing anything.(So by the way, they better make sure their far-right pals in the textbook industry write some stuff about how the compromise of the senate is the glue that holds the nation together and the filibuster saves puppies or something.)

[chemistk]

My kids are in the white minority in their school and have been engaged in anti racism type content and black culture/cultural events their whole education, both formally and informally. We also bring them to museums and watch movies or read books that depict historical examples of racism and ethnic/religious hate. My oldest understands and can discuss systemic racism and sexism.

So I assume they'd be considered"woke" by right wing standards.  They've never once expressed or exhibited any guilt or indebtedness for being white. I'm 100% convinced that this is a made up argument and any thoughts of guilt are put there by the very adults who are ranting about it. Is there any actual evidence that crt causes this independent of people raising this issue in a talking point?

I've come to the personal conclusion that the fear and shame that so many are afraid of is their own fear and shame. I don't think any competent, compassionate educator should ever feel as though they need to make any of their students feel guilty or shameful for something that they had no part in and no control over.

Heck, no decent teacher should make a child feel shameful or guilty if they had a bathroom accident, or if they can't understand a particular word, or if they're feeling down because of something that happened outside of the classroom.

I'm sure all of those situations unfortunately occur on a regular basis but I'd like to think we're largely moving (if not slowly) past that.

Like I mentioned a couple posts above, kids for the most part look to adults to help synthesize the world around them. If they're taught a particular subject that makes their teacher, or parents, or grandparents uncomfortable then they're going to naturally feel uncomfortable about it and use that feeling as their point of reference every time the subject is mentioned. But if it's taught (as nearly everything should be) from a reasoned, logical, neutral point of view then I can't see why the majority of kids wouldn't feel neutral about that subject.

There's a lot of nuance, of course. It needs to be clear that slavery is bad and we should not feel as though we would want to re-institute slavery today. Same with war, genocide, discrimination, violence, etc. But what sense does it make to paint our cultural history as something children would feel bad about? Eventually most kids will get to the point were they will form their own emotions surrounding a given subject, but absent teacher malfeasance and deliberate bullying of anyone for a physical attribute, there's no reason that a white 12 year old should become angry over the narrative of our country's history if they're not already primed to feel a certain way about it. 

As with any subject, there's going to be edge cases - kids who do feel real shame or guilt, but rather than assume that every white child will be made to feel as though they are a villain when we learn about the role that slavery played in the foundation of our country, we can deal with the edge cases individually and with compassion.

[DadJokes]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

I don't know about indoctrination, but that is odd stuff to put in a math textbook. It seems very shoehorned in.

[Michael in ABQ]

My kids are in the white minority in their school and have been engaged in anti racism type content and black culture/cultural events their whole education, both formally and informally. We also bring them to museums and watch movies or read books that depict historical examples of racism and ethnic/religious hate. My oldest understands and can discuss systemic racism and sexism.

So I assume they'd be considered"woke" by right wing standards.  They've never once expressed or exhibited any guilt or indebtedness for being white. I'm 100% convinced that this is a made up argument and any thoughts of guilt are put there by the very adults who are ranting about it. Is there any actual evidence that crt causes this independent of people raising this issue in a talking point?

My older sister has fully bought into the argument that because we are white and were born in raised in a place where nearly everyone else was white, that we are racist. She is in her early 40s and this is something that she just embraced in the last couple of years. She's always been liberal but we had a lengthy phone conversation about this a year or two ago and she was practically in tears because she felt so much guilt for that fact that Oregon had some racist laws on the books and a culture in the 1800s and into the 1900s that basically excluded anyone who wasn't white.

I pointed out that neither of us had anything to do with that. Our ancestors were still living in England or Ireland or somewhere on the east coast at that time - our parents didn't settle there until the 1970s. But because of CRT she believes that she, and every other white person is racist.

[startingsmall]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

I don't know about indoctrination, but that is odd stuff to put in a math textbook. It seems very shoehorned in.

I didn't see it that way, because word problems and understanding charts and graphs is always going to require some sort of scenario. Sure, you could do something about car sales or rainfall amounts or whatever, but this seems like a reasonable example of a real-word data set that students should be comfortable working with.

As for the social-emotional learning component, the "Growth Mindset" is big in both educational and corporate circles. Why wouldn't you try to work that into all subjects? I've done a good bit of math tutoring for middle school students, as well as teaching SAT/GRE prep classes, and probably my biggest job as a tutor was to help students overcome their mental hurdles surrounding math and develop a growth mindset approach, although I didn't realize until recently that there was an actual name for what I was doing. (My goal was to take students from "I stink at math" to "Math is a game and, like any other game, it's a game that I can learn to win."

This article, which was published a few minutes ago, gives a bit more detail/background: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

[GuitarStv]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

I don't know about indoctrination, but that is odd stuff to put in a math textbook. It seems very shoehorned in.

I didn't see it that way, because word problems and understanding charts and graphs is always going to require some sort of scenario. Sure, you could do something about car sales or rainfall amounts or whatever, but this seems like a reasonable example of a real-word data set that students should be comfortable working with.

As for the social-emotional learning component, the "Growth Mindset" is big in both educational and corporate circles. Why wouldn't you try to work that into all subjects? I've done a good bit of math tutoring for middle school students, as well as teaching SAT/GRE prep classes, and probably my biggest job as a tutor was to help students overcome their mental hurdles surrounding math and develop a growth mindset approach, although I didn't realize until recently that there was an actual name for what I was doing. (My goal was to take students from "I stink at math" to "Math is a game and, like any other game, it's a game that I can learn to win."

This article, which was published a few minutes ago, gives a bit more detail/background: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

I think that there is a valid complaint to make about the first example shown:


The right-most example lists conservatives as being more racially prejudiced.  Now, I get where this is coming from (pretty much every study I've seen of the US population will give this same result), but don't think there's any educational value in singling out a group like that.  It's wrong, and I can't see a purpose that it serves.  There is some valid concern there.  (If you disagree, imagine that there were real statistics used to show a graph of . . . say crime broken down by race . . . it would show black people have a significantly higher bar.  How would you feel about that popping up in a math problem?)

That said, I don't see an issue with any of the other stuff depicted.

[DadJokes]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

I don't know about indoctrination, but that is odd stuff to put in a math textbook. It seems very shoehorned in.

I didn't see it that way, because word problems and understanding charts and graphs is always going to require some sort of scenario. Sure, you could do something about car sales or rainfall amounts or whatever, but this seems like a reasonable example of a real-word data set that students should be comfortable working with.

As for the social-emotional learning component, the "Growth Mindset" is big in both educational and corporate circles. Why wouldn't you try to work that into all subjects? I've done a good bit of math tutoring for middle school students, as well as teaching SAT/GRE prep classes, and probably my biggest job as a tutor was to help students overcome their mental hurdles surrounding math and develop a growth mindset approach, although I didn't realize until recently that there was an actual name for what I was doing. (My goal was to take students from "I stink at math" to "Math is a game and, like any other game, it's a game that I can learn to win."

This article, which was published a few minutes ago, gives a bit more detail/background: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

There are easier ways to do that.

It reminds me of a cartoon I watched as a kid where one student is tutoring a bully. The bully thinks that he is bad at math until the tutor makes him realize that he's been using math all along when counting up stolen lunch money.

[chemistk]

My kids are in the white minority in their school and have been engaged in anti racism type content and black culture/cultural events their whole education, both formally and informally. We also bring them to museums and watch movies or read books that depict historical examples of racism and ethnic/religious hate. My oldest understands and can discuss systemic racism and sexism.

So I assume they'd be considered"woke" by right wing standards.  They've never once expressed or exhibited any guilt or indebtedness for being white. I'm 100% convinced that this is a made up argument and any thoughts of guilt are put there by the very adults who are ranting about it. Is there any actual evidence that crt causes this independent of people raising this issue in a talking point?

My older sister has fully bought into the argument that because we are white and were born in raised in a place where nearly everyone else was white, that we are racist. She is in her early 40s and this is something that she just embraced in the last couple of years. She's always been liberal but we had a lengthy phone conversation about this a year or two ago and she was practically in tears because she felt so much guilt for that fact that Oregon had some racist laws on the books and a culture in the 1800s and into the 1900s that basically excluded anyone who wasn't white.

I pointed out that neither of us had anything to do with that. Our ancestors were still living in England or Ireland or somewhere on the east coast at that time - our parents didn't settle there until the 1970s. But because of CRT she believes that she, and every other white person is racist.

That's an extreme that I agree doesn't need to exist. I, in a way, feel bad for your sister for taking that line of thought so far, and I do recognize that there are many many others who feel or want others to feel that way.

Objectively, as the image from the textbook shows, CRT is not the right way to implement this kind of education into broad K-12 education. But at the same time, more than a few people who ran  for our local school board last year and others who are running for state representative have a platform that CRT should not only be removed from schools, but that we shouldn't even be teaching about slavery in more than a passing "it happened and we shouldn't do it again...probably" glance.

So I guess I have to ask, to anyone willing to answer - where's the middle ground? How should we educate kids to understand that the history of our country is fraught with abuses of power and privilege that have permeated and lingered far past when we have historically declared them dead?

[startingsmall]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

I don't know about indoctrination, but that is odd stuff to put in a math textbook. It seems very shoehorned in.

I didn't see it that way, because word problems and understanding charts and graphs is always going to require some sort of scenario. Sure, you could do something about car sales or rainfall amounts or whatever, but this seems like a reasonable example of a real-word data set that students should be comfortable working with.

As for the social-emotional learning component, the "Growth Mindset" is big in both educational and corporate circles. Why wouldn't you try to work that into all subjects? I've done a good bit of math tutoring for middle school students, as well as teaching SAT/GRE prep classes, and probably my biggest job as a tutor was to help students overcome their mental hurdles surrounding math and develop a growth mindset approach, although I didn't realize until recently that there was an actual name for what I was doing. (My goal was to take students from "I stink at math" to "Math is a game and, like any other game, it's a game that I can learn to win."

This article, which was published a few minutes ago, gives a bit more detail/background: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

I think that there is a valid complaint to make about the first example shown:


The right-most example lists conservatives as being more racially prejudiced.  Now, I get where this is coming from (pretty much every study I've seen of the US population will give this same result), but don't think there's any educational value in singling out a group like that.  It's wrong, and I can't see a purpose that it serves.  There is some valid concern there.  (If you disagree, imagine that there were real statistics used to show a graph of . . . say crime broken down by race . . . it would show black people have a significantly higher bar.  How would you feel about that popping up in a math problem?)

That said, I don't see an issue with any of the other stuff depicted.

I'm not saying that it's a perfectly conflict-free math problem, but it's not something that I personally would dedicate any mental energy to. If the FL DOE singled this out as their one best and most egregious example of CRT in a school math textbook, meaning that the others are even more "meh" that this, that definitely strikes me as much ado about nothing.

But, as with so many other things in Florida, it's really not about education at all. It's about appearances and campaigning for a wider national audience.

[jeninco]

My kids are in the white minority in their school and have been engaged in anti racism type content and black culture/cultural events their whole education, both formally and informally. We also bring them to museums and watch movies or read books that depict historical examples of racism and ethnic/religious hate. My oldest understands and can discuss systemic racism and sexism.

So I assume they'd be considered"woke" by right wing standards.  They've never once expressed or exhibited any guilt or indebtedness for being white. I'm 100% convinced that this is a made up argument and any thoughts of guilt are put there by the very adults who are ranting about it. Is there any actual evidence that crt causes this independent of people raising this issue in a talking point?

My older sister has fully bought into the argument that because we are white and were born in raised in a place where nearly everyone else was white, that we are racist. She is in her early 40s and this is something that she just embraced in the last couple of years. She's always been liberal but we had a lengthy phone conversation about this a year or two ago and she was practically in tears because she felt so much guilt for that fact that Oregon had some racist laws on the books and a culture in the 1800s and into the 1900s that basically excluded anyone who wasn't white.

I pointed out that neither of us had anything to do with that. Our ancestors were still living in England or Ireland or somewhere on the east coast at that time - our parents didn't settle there until the 1970s. But because of CRT she believes that she, and every other white person is racist.

That's an extreme that I agree doesn't need to exist. I, in a way, feel bad for your sister for taking that line of thought so far, and I do recognize that there are many many others who feel or want others to feel that way.

Objectively, as the image from the textbook shows, CRT is not the right way to implement this kind of education into broad K-12 education. But at the same time, more than a few people who ran  for our local school board last year and others who are running for state representative have a platform that CRT should not only be removed from schools, but that we shouldn't even be teaching about slavery in more than a passing "it happened and we shouldn't do it again...probably" glance.

So I guess I have to ask, to anyone willing to answer - where's the middle ground? How should we educate kids to understand that the history of our country is fraught with abuses of power and privilege that have permeated and lingered far past when we have historically declared them dead?

First off, thanks for stating clearly and beautifully (further above) what education SHOULD look like. We're from vastly different worlds, but I sort of wish I lived in your neighborhood and could sit out on the front porch with a beer!

So, I have to start by saying that "CRT" actually refers to a 40-year old graduate-school-level field of study:
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory
https://www.nytimes.com/article/what-is-critical-race-theory.html

So to actually be CRT, first the participants have to know enough American (or, I guess, wherever) history that they can go back and re-examine decisions and events in history through the lens of race and racism.

Somehow, the far right wing has taken this advanced academic idea and spread it around to mean ... I guess, any discussion of racism? Or anything that might make certain people feel bad? Any talk about BLM or why black people are disproportionately arrested, imprisoned, killed, etc. etc. ? I mean, the Virginia Governor's tip line was pretty vague: https://www.newsweek.com/glenn-youngkin-sets-tip-line-parents-report-crt-despite-not-being-curriculum-1672741

But I think the real problem is that some people can only hope to win elections (and stay in power) by systematically disenfranchising voters and making sure potential future voters aren't educated about things like critical thinking, Social-Emotional Growth (which is partly a fancy name for "how do you get along in a classroom -- or world -- with other people when you're expected to treat all your classmates respectfully" and also "how do you learn to do things that are hard for you"), and American history.

I also tutor math (mostly high school students, now) and although I wouldn't call it a "Growth Mindset" (because edu-babble makes me want to puke), I also work hard to try to move my students from "I'm not good at math" to "this is something I can do, and I have tactics to turn to when I'm faced with something hard!" It's definitely a thing in math textbooks and classrooms, as is "find a solution, then figure out how you'd explain it to a classmate."

[Morning Glory]

I think the anti-taxes arm of the republican party is whipping up crt frenzy because they want to avoid any discussion of the redistribution of wealth that would be required to mitigate systemic inequality stemming from previous racist policies. They see danger in any notion that passing on large sums of generational wealth might be unethical, so they try to stifle any talk about racism being part of the reason some families have wealth but not others.

Most of these culture war things are really about money.

[JGS1980]

I think the anti-taxes arm of the republican party is whipping up crt frenzy because they want to avoid any discussion of the redistribution of wealth that would be required to mitigate systemic inequality stemming from previous racist policies. They see danger in any notion that passing on large sums of generational wealth might be unethical, so they try to stifle any talk about racism being part of the reason some families have wealth but not others.

Most of these culture war things are really about money.

Look -----> squirrel!

[GuitarStv]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

I don't know about indoctrination, but that is odd stuff to put in a math textbook. It seems very shoehorned in.

I didn't see it that way, because word problems and understanding charts and graphs is always going to require some sort of scenario. Sure, you could do something about car sales or rainfall amounts or whatever, but this seems like a reasonable example of a real-word data set that students should be comfortable working with.

As for the social-emotional learning component, the "Growth Mindset" is big in both educational and corporate circles. Why wouldn't you try to work that into all subjects? I've done a good bit of math tutoring for middle school students, as well as teaching SAT/GRE prep classes, and probably my biggest job as a tutor was to help students overcome their mental hurdles surrounding math and develop a growth mindset approach, although I didn't realize until recently that there was an actual name for what I was doing. (My goal was to take students from "I stink at math" to "Math is a game and, like any other game, it's a game that I can learn to win."

This article, which was published a few minutes ago, gives a bit more detail/background: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

I think that there is a valid complaint to make about the first example shown:


The right-most example lists conservatives as being more racially prejudiced.  Now, I get where this is coming from (pretty much every study I've seen of the US population will give this same result), but don't think there's any educational value in singling out a group like that.  It's wrong, and I can't see a purpose that it serves.  There is some valid concern there.  (If you disagree, imagine that there were real statistics used to show a graph of . . . say crime broken down by race . . . it would show black people have a significantly higher bar.  How would you feel about that popping up in a math problem?)

That said, I don't see an issue with any of the other stuff depicted.

I'm not saying that it's a perfectly conflict-free math problem, but it's not something that I personally would dedicate any mental energy to. If the FL DOE singled this out as their one best and most egregious example of CRT in a school math textbook, meaning that the others are even more "meh" that this, that definitely strikes me as much ado about nothing.

But, as with so many other things in Florida, it's really not about education at all. It's about appearances and campaigning for a wider national audience.

I think that there's valid reason for concern about the second part of the question for the reasons mentioned, but agree with you that all of the other 'bad parts' they listed are utterly trivial and inconsequential.  Banning the text seems like a significant over-reaction to the problem.  Worst case scenario they could just get the page removed or something.  It is just a single part of a single page in the book that they were able to find a problem with.

[ChpBstrd]

I can't remember if it's been explicitly discussed in these threads, but surely many of you are aware of the current Florida math textbook drama. They finally released a couple of examples of this "indoctrination" that they're all up in arms about.

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/

My mind is blown. THESE are the best (worst) examples of indoctrination they can find, and their grounds for prohibiting the use of certain textbooks? That's insane.

I don't know about indoctrination, but that is odd stuff to put in a math textbook. It seems very shoehorned in.

I didn't see it that way, because word problems and understanding charts and graphs is always going to require some sort of scenario. Sure, you could do something about car sales or rainfall amounts or whatever, but this seems like a reasonable example of a real-word data set that students should be comfortable working with.

As for the social-emotional learning component, the "Growth Mindset" is big in both educational and corporate circles. Why wouldn't you try to work that into all subjects? I've done a good bit of math tutoring for middle school students, as well as teaching SAT/GRE prep classes, and probably my biggest job as a tutor was to help students overcome their mental hurdles surrounding math and develop a growth mindset approach, although I didn't realize until recently that there was an actual name for what I was doing. (My goal was to take students from "I stink at math" to "Math is a game and, like any other game, it's a game that I can learn to win."

This article, which was published a few minutes ago, gives a bit more detail/background: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

I think that there is a valid complaint to make about the first example shown:


The right-most example lists conservatives as being more racially prejudiced.  Now, I get where this is coming from (pretty much every study I've seen of the US population will give this same result), but don't think there's any educational value in singling out a group like that.  It's wrong, and I can't see a purpose that it serves.  There is some valid concern there.  (If you disagree, imagine that there were real statistics used to show a graph of . . . say crime broken down by race . . . it would show black people have a significantly higher bar.  How would you feel about that popping up in a math problem?)

That said, I don't see an issue with any of the other stuff depicted.

I'm not saying that it's a perfectly conflict-free math problem, but it's not something that I personally would dedicate any mental energy to. If the FL DOE singled this out as their one best and most egregious example of CRT in a school math textbook, meaning that the others are even more "meh" that this, that definitely strikes me as much ado about nothing.

But, as with so many other things in Florida, it's really not about education at all. It's about appearances and campaigning for a wider national audience.

I think that there's valid reason for concern about the second part of the question for the reasons mentioned, but agree with you that all of the other 'bad parts' they listed are utterly trivial and inconsequential.  Banning the text seems like a significant over-reaction to the problem.  Worst case scenario they could just get the page removed or something.  It is just a single part of a single page in the book that they were able to find a problem with.

Should textbook authors be forced to make up fake data rather than fascinating students with actual research results?

When it comes time for the students to study the actual research in a social sciences class, should it be banned from there too?

How about we just ban research on racial prejudice? Seems more straightforward and gets right to the root of the problem of people's feelings being hurt by facts. It's just not politically correct.

[GuitarStv]

Should textbook authors be forced to make up fake data rather than fascinating students with actual research results?

Nope.  But as was mentioned earlier, it seems a little forced/shoehorned into a simple math question.

When it comes time for the students to study the actual research in a social sciences class, should it be banned from there too?

No, you're being silly here.

In a social sciences class (given context for study), using the data there would make perfect sense.  As would using the data about black people being involved in more crime (important to show the impact of socioeconomic standing/history of course).

How about we just ban research on racial prejudice? Seems more straightforward and gets right to the root of the problem of people's feelings being hurt by facts. It's just not politically correct.

Not sure we're really too far apart on this whole thing.  I'm not against talking about prejudice in math problems, not against using research to study problems.  It just seems like a bad idea to single out conservatives as a group in a context-less math question.

It's better for kids to come to certain realizations on their own.  If I'm a 14 year old who has conservative parents and a conservative world view . . . do you think I'm going to read that question and go 'Mom and Dad are likely racists!  By golly, maybe I can fix them!" or more likely to say "Fuck this textbook, they're calling my parents names!"?  It would seem to me to be a better approach to introduce the concept of systemic racism and prejudicial bias, and then allow kids to come to their own conclusions on their own time.  Hitting them over the head with something like that is as likely to drive them away from the point you want them to reach as bring them closer to it.  I guess it's a moot point though, since the prejudiced parents were able to get the overly aggressive book banned entirely.